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Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso

Posted By: Dwalin2011

Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 03:04 PM

I know, there already are many "what if" threads, but still, here's a question:
do you think that, hadn't Ruggiero died of cancer, would have Casso got him for the attempt on his life or would Ruggiero tried again to kill him first? Or would they just have left it behind, what do you think? I am just interested because it seems strange to me that "Quack-quack" was the only one to have the balls to take out that psycho. Even Amuso just let him be, if I were him I wouldn't trust such a man to be my underboss.
Posted By: Jimmy_Two_Times

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 07:02 PM

I don't know anything, but from the book I've read on Casso, and from what our learned colleagues on this board say of Casso, I'd have to say, that he would have had Ruggiero killed at some time or another. He didn't seem like a person that is a "live and let live" kind of guy, especially when a soldier from another family wanted an underboss killed....
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 07:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Dwalin2011
I know, there already are many "what if" threads, but still, here's a question:
do you think that, hadn't Ruggiero died of cancer, would have Casso got him for the attempt on his life or would Ruggiero tried again to kill him first? Or would they just have left it behind, what do you think? I am just interested because it seems strange to me that "Quack-quack" was the only one to have the balls to take out that psycho.


Casso was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia.Thats some sort of schizophrenia,in which Casso had delusions (false beliefs)that a person or some individuals(for example members of his crime family)are plotting against him,plus he was a bloodthirsty person.A terrible mixture.

So i think that the "Or would they just have left it behind" option is out of the question.
Posted By: LittleMan

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 07:36 PM

As per the Carlo book, Casso tortured and extracted a confession from Jimmy Hydell, complete with all of the others involved. Casso left Hydell in his barely alive state and made him repeat the story to some top members of the Gambino family. Gotti refused to come, however, the confession was confirmed by the Gambinos.

With that in mind, Gotti and Ruggiero were very close and John wouldn't have whacked him, imo. And I believe that Gotti ordered Quack Quack to clip Casso- I don't really believe the bad drug deal story. The time frame can't be ignored as it was months after Casso arranged for Frank DeCicco to be bombed.

As far as Dwalin's question goes....Casso would have had Ruggiero whacked- because this is what he did with the others involved. Gotti would have gone insane, and this would have led to a mini war between the Lucchese/Genoveses vs Gambinos. I believe the Bonannos would have stayed out of this because they wanted to earn their seat back on the commission and going to war alongside the Gambinos would have killed their chances.
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 07:55 PM

But couldn't it have been that Ruggiero would have whacked Casso first? I don't think he would have just waited to die without doing anything.
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 07:59 PM

Originally Posted By: LittleMan
And I believe that Gotti ordered Quack Quack to clip Casso- I don't really believe the bad drug deal story. The time frame can't be ignored as it was months after Casso arranged for Frank DeCicco to be bombed.

But why then did he hit Casso and not Gigante who was more important?
Posted By: pmac

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 08:03 PM

wasn't it over a herion deal. like gravano said angelo was a sneak he drummed up the idea to kill d.b. cause he owed him like 200k. but wats up with the Sammy the bullcoming to the famma guys rescue saying that guy on mob wives dad wasn't killed cause he was a rat then wat was the real reason. the feds are gonna have to drop the case now cause they made it sound like they were killing a gov witness or someshit. they let him out on bail. the guys kids wife is on that show shes hot for a 40 yr old with kids.
Posted By: LittleMan

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 08:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Dwalin2011
But couldn't it have been that Ruggiero would have whacked Casso first? I don't think he would have just waited to die without doing anything.


Of course. That's what makes the possibilities interesting.

Originally Posted By: Dwalin2011

But why then did he hit Casso and not Gigante who was more important?


The Gambinos and Genoveses were similar in size and strength, and Chin was arguably the strongest don. The Luccheses were much smaller, and Casso was a consigliere- I don't believe he was the acting street boss until '93, when Amuso was convicted and given a life sentence. In essence, Casso was probably targeted because he was the weaker of the two and more involved with that particular plot.

While Chin tried to have Gotti whacked, he couldn't get the job done. He passed the job to the Luccheses, who were in charge of the car bombing. Casso, Vic Amuso, Bobby Amuso, and Herbie Pate (bomb expert) were at the scene when the bomb went off.
Posted By: domwoods74

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 08:51 PM

Nothing happened to Micky boy paradiso
Posted By: Giancarlo

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 08:58 PM

Did any of you guys see the show where Al D'Arco was saying Gravano was hiding from them cause he knew they were out to hit him? I don't believe it myself. Sure Gravano is a rat but i don't believe he was ducking D'Arco or any of those guys. He said something like Sammy was scared to death of them. I just don't believe it.

I think it was on that NatGeo Manhattan Mob Rampage show on the Lucchese's.

Any thoughts here on that?
Posted By: littlemango

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 09:10 PM

Gravano was probably scared of casso because who wouldn't be? Scared is a verb used to describe weakness, and I am not saying sammy was weak to be scared of casso, moreso that he had respect for how freaking insane gas was
Posted By: LittleMan

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 09:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Giancarlo
Did any of you guys see the show where Al D'Arco was saying Gravano was hiding from them cause he knew they were out to hit him? I don't believe it myself. Sure Gravano is a rat but i don't believe he was ducking D'Arco or any of those guys. He said something like Sammy was scared to death of them. I just don't believe it.

I think it was on that NatGeo Manhattan Mob Rampage show on the Lucchese's.

Any thoughts here on that?


Casso said the same thing, as per Philip Carlo. Casso was actively trying to whack both Gotti and Sammy. While Gotti was always being followed by the media, tailed by the FBI, or surrounded by his men.....Sammy hid from Casso's hit team because he knew he was a marked man.
Posted By: Snakes

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 09:28 PM

Sammy had balls but he was no idiot. Casso was a maniac.
Posted By: Giancarlo

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 09:44 PM

Good points....No doubt Casso was a homicidal maniac.

I just thought D'Arco was making it sound like Sammy was a total pussy and i really don't think he was. IMO the Gambino's would of crushed the Lucchese's in a war as long as the Genovese didn't jump in.

But maybe D'Arco was telling the truth. Thanks guys.
Posted By: Beanshooter

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 09:50 PM

So who had Bobby Borriello and Eddy Lino wacked?
Posted By: Giancarlo

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 09:55 PM

Yes ...i know Gas ordered the hits but the Gambino's had some hitters too. I think they would of rolled over the Luccheses if it ever came to that point. As long as it remained 1 on 1.

Just my opinion though.
Posted By: LittleMan

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 10:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Giancarlo
Good points....No doubt Casso was a homicidal maniac.

I just thought D'Arco was making it sound like Sammy was a total pussy and i really don't think he was. IMO the Gambino's would of crushed the Lucchese's in a war as long as the Genovese didn't jump in.

But maybe D'Arco was telling the truth. Thanks guys.


I agree with you. I think Casso and D'Arco were beating their chests and acting like tough guys, after the fact.

I don't believe Sammy was a pussy, at all. How can you blame a guy for avoiding people and situations where he could have been whacked? Gravano had good reason to be paranoid, especially after Eddie Lino was clipped. Sammy probably quickly found out that Gotti had nothing to do with it. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if he was warned by the FBI.
Posted By: domwoods74

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 10:47 PM

Lino was killed on the orders of casso by the mafia cops for being a shooter in the castellano murder
Posted By: domwoods74

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 10:50 PM

Bobby borriello was also murdered on the orders of casso for nothing more that's being really close to gotti , frank lastorino gunned boriello down
Posted By: Beanshooter

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 11:36 PM

Originally Posted By: domwoods74
Bobby borriello was also murdered on the orders of casso for nothing more that's being really close to gotti , frank lastorino gunned boriello down


Wasn't Bobiello on the Castellano murder too?
Posted By: tiger84

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/10/13 11:40 PM

Yes but even though casso was consig hhe was by far the most powerful guy in the lucheses.Even darco admits that casso was really running the family.

I think gotti could of justified whacking casso to the commission BUT if he whacked the chin it would of started a shitstorm that would of takin 10 years to stop.
Posted By: bigboy

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/11/13 12:08 AM

I m pretty sure Casso would not forgive and forget. As was mentioned above, James Hydell learned how Casso would get even.
I think he would have been successful too because Ruggiero wasn't very sharp and he was careless. Look how he had his daughters phone bugged by the FBI and how he shot off his mouth all the time. And Casso didn't engineer the death of Frank DeCecco. They were after Gotti. Lastly, I don't think Gravano was scared of Casso. He was pretty sharp and was cautious of assassins.
Posted By: Giancarlo

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/11/13 12:12 AM

On one of the shows they said it was actually Tony Ducks who ordered Gas and Vic to hit Gotti. And even when they killed DiCicco by accident Ducks was still happy with the results.

I don't know if thats true or not but that was what someone said on one of the shows i watched.
Posted By: Dellacroce

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/11/13 12:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Giancarlo
On one of the shows they said it was actually Tony Ducks who ordered Gas and Vic to hit Gotti. And even when they killed DiCicco by accident Ducks was still happy with the results.

I don't know if thats true or not but that was what someone said on one of the shows i watched.

pretty sure that was in manhattan mob rampage. that show cracked me up, they had that one guy who looked like al pacinos inbred cousin who would stutter about amuso, i think his name was Clemente. they called him a soldier/made guy and he was never made, they also called tommy riccardi a captain of the jersey crew, and i never heard that before, maybe he was acting at some point after acceturo flipped,idk. How they could talk about the jersey crew that much and not mention acceturo or the tacceta brothers once is beyond me. I guess my point is that one particular program wasnt always 100% accurate, although im not sure whether that one part about ducks ordering the hit is true or not. i was always under the impression that the order to hit gotti came from Gigante.
Posted By: Giancarlo

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/11/13 01:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Dellacroce
pretty sure that was in manhattan mob rampage. that show cracked me up, they had that one guy who looked like al pacinos inbred cousin who would stutter about amuso, i think his name was Clemente. they called him a soldier/made guy and he was never made,

I remember him...the guy with the speech impediment. He had a tough time getting some of those words out of his mouth.

Same guy said something snapped in Casso's head after he was shot.....said he was never the same guy again, or something like that.
Posted By: MemphisMafia

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/11/13 01:16 AM

I don't think for a minute that Gravano was afraid of the Lucchese.Maybe he was cautious or hesitant but I'll never believe afraid.These guys killed Castellano knowing and accepting that it could very well mean war with The Chin.That is brass balls.No chicken shit there
Posted By: Scalish

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/11/13 01:21 AM

The guys name was Sal Clemente. He suffered a stroke that is why he looks strange when he speaks.
Posted By: Giancarlo

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/11/13 01:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Scalish
The guys name was Sal Clemente. He suffered a stroke that is why he looks strange when he speaks.

Yup..thats the guy. I just thought he had a speech impediment.

Strokes are no joke...thanks Scalish.
Posted By: Scalish

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/11/13 01:28 AM

No problem my friend.
Posted By: Dellacroce

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/11/13 01:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Giancarlo
Originally Posted By: Scalish
The guys name was Sal Clemente. He suffered a stroke that is why he looks strange when he speaks.

Yup..thats the guy. I just thought he had a speech impediment.

Strokes are no joke...thanks Scalish.

yeah thanks for making me look like a dick scalish grin
Posted By: Scalish

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/11/13 01:31 AM

Lol come on it wasn't like that lol.
Posted By: Dellacroce

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/11/13 01:34 AM

lol of course not mad smile
Posted By: Scalish

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/11/13 01:37 AM

Lol
Posted By: LittleMan

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 12/11/13 04:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Giancarlo
On one of the shows they said it was actually Tony Ducks who ordered Gas and Vic to hit Gotti. And even when they killed DiCicco by accident Ducks was still happy with the results.

I don't know if thats true or not but that was what someone said on one of the shows i watched.


Yes, you are correct.

As per Philip Carlo's biography, Tony Ducks and Christy Tick had a private meeting with the Chin to discuss Gotti. Some others, like Casso, were waiting in the other room to hear what the plans were. They emerged and shared the news that they were dispatching the Genovese Jersey crew to handle the job.

After the Commission trial left Amuso/Casso in charge, they now met directly with the Chin. The Genovese Jersey crew was unable to get to Gotti, and now the Chin delegated the job to Amuso/Casso.
Posted By: DBCooper

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/11/14 09:55 AM

I don´t know but Gaspipe allways reminds me of the Bull and otherwise.

Both were good Earners/Killers and Underboss.

Would they be a good Team?
Posted By: Jimmy_Two_Times

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/11/14 12:14 PM

It's a good thought question, but I don't think so. As evidenced from Amuso/Casso you can't have two psychopaths leading a pack. You need someone level headed to calm down any tempers. Now they could probably have formed a formidable modern day Murder Incorporated...
Posted By: Alfa Romeo

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/11/14 12:28 PM

Quote:
Yes, you are correct.

As per Philip Carlo's biography, Tony Ducks and Christy Tick had a private meeting with the Chin to discuss Gotti. Some others, like Casso, were waiting in the other room to hear what the plans were. They emerged and shared the news that they were dispatching the Genovese Jersey crew to handle the job.

After the Commission trial left Amuso/Casso in charge, they now met directly with the Chin. The Genovese Jersey crew was unable to get to Gotti, and now the Chin delegated the job to Amuso/Casso.


That's fascinating. In the distant past, when a Boss needed to be taken out, the Commission would give some faction from within his family the sanction to replace him. But in the above scenario, it actually looks like the Genovese and Lucchese mobs wanted to whack Gotti and divie up the Gambino rackets amongst each other.
Posted By: Binnie_Coll

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/13/14 12:11 AM

aways amazed at why a powerful boss like the chin never got gotti. I'm sure with gigante's resoures somehow, someway,

he could have clipped gotti, maybe after the first attempt he
decided he didn't want a war, let gotti go to prison. but,
maybe i'm wrong but, I sincerely believe that the chin if he really, really, wanted to whack him he could have. just my opinon.
Posted By: mulberry

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/13/14 12:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
aways amazed at why a powerful boss like the chin never got gotti. I'm sure with gigante's resoures somehow, someway,

he could have clipped gotti, maybe after the first attempt he
decided he didn't want a war, let gotti go to prison. but,
maybe i'm wrong but, I sincerely believe that the chin if he really, really, wanted to whack him he could have. just my opinon.


He didn't want a huge war. The hit had to be a sneak job.
Posted By: Binnie_Coll

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/13/14 12:17 AM

thanks mulberry. I believe you.
Posted By: Alfa Romeo

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/13/14 02:49 AM

Quote:
aways amazed at why a powerful boss like the chin never got gotti. I'm sure with gigante's resoures somehow, someway,

he could have clipped gotti, maybe after the first attempt he
decided he didn't want a war, let gotti go to prison. but,
maybe i'm wrong but, I sincerely believe that the chin if he really, really, wanted to whack him he could have. just my opinon.


Binnie, it took the 5 families 6 years to catch up to Albert Anastasia to make him answer for the disappearance of Vincenzo Mangano. And Albert wasn't hidden nor his whereabouts unknown. It took that long to pick a new candidate for Boss, gather political support for that new faction, farm out the contract, pick a hit team, get read to strike, and finally take the guy out. 6 years. And Albert committed the same offense as Gotti come to think of it.

I don't think Gigante ever "kissed and made up" with Gotti. That might be what Gotti thought or hoped for, but I think Gigante was old school and they never forget.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/13/14 04:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Alfa_Romeo
Quote:
aways amazed at why a powerful boss like the chin never got gotti. I'm sure with gigante's resoures somehow, someway,

he could have clipped gotti, maybe after the first attempt he
decided he didn't want a war, let gotti go to prison. but,
maybe i'm wrong but, I sincerely believe that the chin if he really, really, wanted to whack him he could have. just my opinon.


Binnie, it took the 5 families 6 years to catch up to Albert Anastasia to make him answer for the disappearance of Vincenzo Mangano. And Albert wasn't hidden nor his whereabouts unknown. It took that long to pick a new candidate for Boss, gather political support for that new faction, farm out the contract, pick a hit team, get read to strike, and finally take the guy out. 6 years. And Albert committed the same offense as Gotti come to think of it.



I really don´t know where you are getting your fucking stuff from. You need to check yourself before you wreck yourself... lol
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/13/14 04:44 AM

This is why I make it a rule to stay out of threads with the abbreviation vs. in the title lol.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/13/14 04:50 AM

Watch Toddo jumping in pretty soon, complaining about my "langwich"... lol
Posted By: Alfa Romeo

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/13/14 04:50 AM

LOL The VS sort of jinxed it huh?

This seriously has me cracking up. I never really looked at the title of the thread until now. That is some inane WWF sh- right there.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/13/14 05:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Alfa_Romeo
Quote:
Watch Toddo jumping in pretty soon, complaining about my "langwich"... lol


Ok but I'm sorry Mr Professor but there is a higher standard for you. It's hard to edify people when you are dropping F bombs at the same time.



Yeah, but posters like you need to be nose rubbed occasionally.
Posted By: TommyGambino

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/13/14 09:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Alfa_Romeo
Quote:
Yes, you are correct.

As per Philip Carlo's biography, Tony Ducks and Christy Tick had a private meeting with the Chin to discuss Gotti. Some others, like Casso, were waiting in the other room to hear what the plans were. They emerged and shared the news that they were dispatching the Genovese Jersey crew to handle the job.

After the Commission trial left Amuso/Casso in charge, they now met directly with the Chin. The Genovese Jersey crew was unable to get to Gotti, and now the Chin delegated the job to Amuso/Casso.


That's fascinating. In the distant past, when a Boss needed to be taken out, the Commission would give some faction from within his family the sanction to replace him. But in the above scenario, it actually looks like the Genovese and Lucchese mobs wanted to whack Gotti and divie up the Gambino rackets amongst each other.


Divie up the Gambino rackets? You do realise they had another 250 soldiers apart from Gotti lol

Commission would've made Marino or Failla boss.
Posted By: bronx

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/13/14 09:28 AM

caso should have killed that him...shame he tortured the messenger...kid died for following orders.. angelo was a thug ,knew zero and cared zero about cos nostra
Posted By: pmac

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/13/14 01:06 PM

true but what the hell would a unamde kid be thinking going after gaspipe in his prime. I could only imagine he was a walking legend in Brooklyn in 1986, so was gotti, but he must have been high to trie and kill gaspipe. but I think he was only a real powerfull soldier in 1986, wonder what the hell tony ducks and chris tic thought about him getting shot was that before or after the Gambino underboss got blown up? if it happen before probably why the luchese and Genovese made the pact to kill gotti. actually capcie wrote cool article about dan marino and hydells mother and the fuck up family. he should have rode his uncle coattails and probably be alive today+ changed his last name to his mothers maiden named and got his button.
Posted By: pmac

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/13/14 01:08 PM

there must have been a big meeting with bosses when gaspipe got shot? or it would have been a war. which pipe did kill almost everybody involved with his shooting quitley putting the blame elsewere. theres a picture of gotti Sammy vic and gas its says 1988 how akward were them sitdowns
Posted By: TommyGambino

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 11/13/14 01:17 PM

Originally Posted By: pmac
there must have been a big meeting with bosses when gaspipe got shot? or it would have been a war. which pipe did kill almost everybody involved with his shooting quitley putting the blame elsewere. theres a picture of gotti Sammy vic and gas its says 1988 how akward were them sitdowns


[img]http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/30677/slide_30677_297259_large.jpg?1308881640950[/img]
Posted By: Quiet_Doms

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 09/14/17 08:57 AM

There was no meeting. Once Casso had Jimmy Hydell in his clutch he tortured him into giving up a name. The contract was issued by Fat Ange and carried out by Hydell on orders from Mikey Boy Paradiso. Gaspipe summoned Gotti to the house where he had Hydell bound. Instead Johnny Boy sent Joe Butch Corrao to meet with Casso. Joe Butch denied having knowledge of Gotti sanctioning a hit. Insisting that Ruggerio and Paradiso went rogue.
Posted By: barry

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 09/16/17 01:14 AM

Well I realy think COSTELLO loss of power was it .after Frank got grazed .Alberts days were numbered . Funny how when BONNANO leaves for sicily
he gets blown to bits.
Posted By: Tonytough

Re: Angelo Ruggiero vs Anthony Casso - 09/16/17 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: mulberry
Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
aways amazed at why a powerful boss like the chin never got gotti. I'm sure with gigante's resoures somehow, someway,

he could have clipped gotti, maybe after the first attempt he
decided he didn't want a war, let gotti go to prison. but,
maybe i'm wrong but, I sincerely believe that the chin if he really, really, wanted to whack him he could have. just my opinon.


He didn't want a huge war. The hit had to be a sneak job.




Exactly that!!

People give the Chin far too much credit, yes he had a lot
of balls, figured out the mental act that is widespread now for those on state income, had a lot of money and a tough crew/ family

BUT so did Gotti to some extent and it's not like the Chin was bullet proof

An open war was the last thing he needed...
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