The real strength of US Mafia ?

That the American Mafia is in decline, it's a foregone conclusion.
Now only the families of the east coast retain a certain degree of power: in addition to the 5 families of New York, to Decavalcantes of New Jersey, the the Patriarcas of Boston and the Mafia in Philadelphia, other families or are extinct or are on the way to extinction .
I just wanted to know what is numerically the total strength of the American Mafia, I will take the numbers of made man from Wikipedia, and please, do not let close the post by SC, because continue to insult each other.


Genovese 250-300 made men
Gambino 180-220 made men
Lucchese 100-120 made men
Bonanno 100-130 made men
Colombo 90-110 made men

Buffalo 40 made man
Chicago Outfit 30 made men
Cleveland 15-20+ made men
Detroit Partnership 40-50+ made man
Kansas City 15+ made members
Los Angeles 15-20 made men (2003 estimate)
Milwaukee 10 made men
Patriarca 30 made men
DeCavalcante 40 made men
Philadelphia 50 made men

New York about 720-880 made men
Outside NY 270-300 made men

Total 990-1180 made men


if anyone has any corrections to do, go ahead

Stop reading Wikipedia Furio.

No way do the Genovese have anywhere near 300. Genovese and Gambino's both have around 200, history tells us that there numbers have always been very similar.

Yeah Tommy, is just for make me an idea,and the numerber of the 5 families I take from the Muckremin charts. If anyone has a recent information,just make a post.

The FBI has the Genovese family around 200 members for decades now, same with the Gambino's.

I'm no expert on Buffalo but I'd be shocked if they had 40 made guys, more like 20 IMO.

So that puts it at roughly 11,000 involved if we are going off of the "ten associates to one made guy" rule?

I would say detroit is closer to 30 than 40
LA only has like 7 maybe 8 guys(less then that if we are talking active members)
And some1 can correct if im wrong but arent there only 2 guys left in cleveland(confirmed made guys)? Papalardo and iaccobacci.

i think all the new york numbers are inflated unless they make any and everybody

they'd get more loyalty if they close the books for a while

A lot of those are rather inflated.

Genovese and Gambino each have about 200 or so.
Luccheses, Colombos, and Bonannos each have about 100 or so.
It's approximately 700-750 members in New York.

The New Jersey, New England, and Philadelphia families each have about 40-50 members.

Chicago has 25-30.
Buffalo has about 20 at this point.
Detroit somewhere between 20-30.
As I've said, I'd be surprised if Kansas City is over 15 at this point.

All the other families are under 10 at this point. Some down to 1 or 2.

The total membership in the U.S. is approximately 1,000.

Simply assuming 10 associates for each member isn't always correct. Member to associate ratios vary from family to family. And the estimates vary according to how one defines an associate anyway.

it seems that, at least with the five families, that most of the official estimates have it averaged out to around 5 associates per made guy, i.e the colombos having about 100 made guys with roughly 500 associates and the gambinos and genoveses having around 200 made guys with roughly 1000 associates, but like you said its all about how an associate is defined.

Law Enforcement seems to have a much looser definition of "associate" than I'm comfortable with. I remember talking about sports offices with Ivy awhile back. He seemed to be in agreement with the Feds that if you're a mob connected office laying off bets to an independent office, then that makes the independent office connected by extension. And I say that's bullshit.

I'm around sportsbooks all my life, and if a guy manages to stay independent, then good for him. You can't make the jump and call him connected just because half-a-wiseguy calls him at three minutes to one on Sunday afternoon to lay off the Packers. You can ruin a guy's life by hanging that label on him when it doesn't fit.

@Ivy: I'm not trying to wake up an old and tired argument. You know me better than that. I'm just using an old debate to make a point to Dellacroce .

I have never understood why any sports book would want to become affiliated, unless of course coerced to pay up.

Granted I'm from Louisiana and since there is no LCN here I wouldn't know first hand on the kick ups that the books do up north but I wouldn't feel comfortable having to include others in a Gambling Operation.
1. You gotta worry about them stealing or skimming off the weeks take,
2. If they screw up a bet by either not giving the right spread, your still binded to that if the bettor win's big.
3. The more people involved that's the more ways the profit has to be split, which means thats the more customers that you have to take in, which means a bigger chance youll get caught.

Just my Opinion.....

When they come knockin, their biggest selling point is, BY FAR, this line of bullshit: You come with us and you'll never have to worry about getting stiffed again because people will know you're with us and they'll fear you now.

Yeah, until you ask them to help you collect from some brokester who's not afraid to call the cops. Then they tell you it's not their problem. And if they ARE willing to help collect, it's always for a fifty-fifty split. At the very least .

If I have a problem I ask one of my friend who has a small car lot to let me borrow a car that's not familiar with anyone then call up my homie who has a few black soliders to take care of the business

If there's no layered structure, you have no family.
The LCN has a specific set of rituals and overall hierarchy. You take that away and you have no LCN.
5 guys (or 15) aren't enough to be labeled as a "family". It's a crew at best. Made of criminals of Italian heritage.

So you can go ahead and rub away Milwaukee, Cleveland, Buffalo, Kansas City and LA.

Detroit is on top of this "mob leftovers club" but it's still in a grey area for me.

We can all agree that the American LCN as for 2013 it's a NY, NJ, Eastern PA, Atlantic NE and Chicago Area thing.

There's really no way the Feds can get a good count on associates. An associate is a guy on the record with a family. But a family can claim any guy that does business with them. Picture Elvis Dalessio and his 50 odd agents, Elvis was claimed by prisco, so Elvis is a west side associate. Now his agents may not even know who they report to, they are doing biz under a genovese associate. Which means by extension they're associating and working for a family. Associates aren't all the same, a guy who lost a lot in sports runs to a guy to protect him while he pays the debts back, TECHNICALLY he's an associate. But he's on the same level as a associate who has his own crew and has a million in loans on the street

Always felt a little sketchy on the law's definition of 'associate' and this is the perfect example of why. You nailed it.

There was another thread about the younger crews in the 90s (bath ave, tanglewood boys, etc..) earlier and you can use that as another example. Mike DeRosa was an associate, on the record of Jimmy Galione and helped manage the drug ring they had going. But were DeRosa's street level dealers who probably never even spoke with Galione associates? What about the dealers who dealt in even smaller quantities, who bought their weight from DeRosa's underlings... could they be associates? You get into that type of branching off and you'll come up with estimates of thousands of associates, which is ridiculous. Same guys with stuff like "x amount of associates per made guy." there could be a made guy with zero. it's impossible to pin down

I'd say a good definition of associate is an active, un-made member on the record with a made guy who is integral in that made guy's operations and has direct dealings

the U.S mafia ain't as powerful because other crime groups have just as much money

before the mafia had all the money so they had extra power

now other ethnic organizations have the same wealth as the mafia

money is power in america

at what point in time would you say "The Mafia" had all the money in the US? 1920?

It's not because of other "ethnic" organizations but,as said many times before, a combination of attrition, RICO, and being their own worst enemy. LCN didn't have "all the money" because even during their peak years their were other criminal enterprises/syndicates deeply involved in organized crime. American organized crime have always been diverse and LCN families' wealth/power/influence have been based in their location.

Blackfamily you watch Boss on starz ?

No.

A mob-affiliated bookie is less likely to get stiffed than a non-affiliated one. But I don't think that's the main selling point. "Kick up to us or else..." is a more effective selling point.

To Quote Goodfella's "All they got from Paulie was protection from other guys looking to rip them off. That's what it's all about. That's what the FBI can never understand - that what Paulie and the organization offer is protection for the kinds of guys who can't go to the cops. They're like the police department for wiseguys."

I've said many times that I don't put much stock in associate estimates. But the latest member-to-associate ratios are 1:5 in New York and Chicago, 1:2 in New England and Philadelphia, and 1:1 in New Jersey.



The LCN never had "all the money," as in controlled all the crime in the country; though many old news reports almost made it sound like it did. However, it had about a 50 year window - from the 1930's to the 1980's - where it was more or less the sole national power in organized crime. The Irish and Jewish groups had largely gone by the wayside and the newer groups like the South Americans, Russians, Asians, etc. weren't a major factor yet.

Hope you enjoyed your time here.

I enjoyed your dad here

I don't really understand.

My post was a reply to a poster whose remark had been deleted.

seen it first hand...a buddy of mine was on a half sheet...only went with them because he thought they would help collect..when a kid who owned a package store locally stiffed my friend for 5k my friend got threatened with coming up with it or else.......

OR ELSE Fuck them I'd jut call the cops and have someone beat them up if I didn't do it mysel

That's the problem with the half-sheet. You can make a good buck, but you're responsible for the laydowns.

I'm reading Jerry Capeci's recent bio (Al D`Arco), and he discussed the headcounts of the five families. Capeci wrote that Lucky's original commission decided on the maximum headcounts for each family to keep everyone in line.

Genovese....300
Gambino.....300
Colombo.....150
Bonanno.....125-140
Lucchese....125-140

This doesn't necessarily reflect the current numbers, but is where each family is capped at when recruiting new members. Even though families can replenish the ranks, some opt not to in order to keep a bigger share of the loot, or to avoid diluting the standards. Since the figures posted by other members are lower, I'm assuming the decision to keep the headcount lower is voluntary.

I agree since you are not putting up any cash. but as long you have other players , even if one guy stiffs you can come back. lets say he was in the black (meaning his players were losing) at half sheet. If he could get 2500 to give to the office then that would be chalked up as square. But each situation is different it depends the deal you have with the office. I have stories for days on the half sheets guys.... especially the young ones

Well, sure. But your problem is when you have a week where all the favorites cover and all of your suckers win, except for one moron who loses enough to balance your sheet. Problem is, you may be waiting for this one guy to pay you, so you can pay your winners. And if you don't have the money to cover the laydown, you shouldn't hold your breath on the office laying it out for you.

It doesn't happen often, but it happens. That's why, even if you're on a half-sheet, it's best for you to have some cash of your own in the drawer. Just in case .

The idea that Detroit has more than Chicago is absurd. As I wrote in another thread, there is 10 x the reported mob activity in Chicago than in Detroit, and the fed's number of about 25 in Chicago would seem to be very solid.

Not that I know about running book but if you can't cover the lay down or waiting on Peter so you can pay Paul.... WTF are you doing running book?
Otherwise it seems it's simply a matter of time before the music stops and there are no chairs...

Regards the 'official' family numbers Lucky apparently set, I'm doubting as Columbo at 150 and Bonnano at 125-140 when Joe Bonnano was a founding member of the commission and Profaci was his pseudo no.2 seems... Unlikely.

Sonny, I agree. Plus, why would Mangano be on equal footing with Luciano's family? I thought they were a smaller family until Gambino took over.

But it came from Jerry Capeci's book, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I misunderstood his words. If anyone has Mob Boss, it's discussed on page 128.

I tend to agree. The last reported estimate I've seen regarding Detroit was 30 members back in 2001. Which was the same as the max figure reported during the 1996 case. Since then, the members or possible members listed below have died. And I take internet rumors about recent ceremonies with a grain of salt.


Carlo Bommarito (2008)???
Antony "Tony Long" Cimini (2005)
Anthony "Tony the Bull" Corrado (2002)
Vincent "Little Vince" Meli (2006)
Anthony "Tony Jack" Giacalone (2001)
Anthony "Fat Tony" Giacalone, Jr (2013)
Vito "Billy Jack" Giacolone (2012)
Jack "Jackie G" Gianosa (2003)
Salvatore "Sammy G" Giordano (2002)
Dominic Licavoli (2003)
Salvatore "Soupy" Lentine (2002)
Anthony "Pretty Boy Tony" Munaco (2005)
Leonardo "Leo Monday" Monteleone (2006)
Rafaela "Jimmy Q" Quassarano (2002)
Joseph "Jo Jo" Ruggirello (2013)
James "Jackie Two Guns" Russo (2012)
Anthony "Tony T" Tocco (2012)
William "Billy Boy" Tocco (2007) (suicide)
Dominic "Lefty" Tringale (2007)
Frank "Chinky" Versaci (2012)
Dominic Viccari (2001)

So we're looking at approx. 19 active made guys left in Detroit.

michigan doesn't have a high italian population

then again they plug family members and people who marry into the family

so ain't no telling what their head count is

Yeah , but if you have been with the office for awhile why would they not pay the winners if you couldn't cover it? especially if you were making money for them? That is some amateur bullshit right there. They wouldnt want to lose good customers because one guy didnt pay. Also , not every player is gonna to pay on time even if they always pay. You are going to run into some bumps in the road. A REAL office would know this. They would cover it.

All I'm trying to say is, if you're on a half-sheet, then you're the one ultimately responsible for the money. And you're right, a reputable office will float you the money in the short term. But in the long term, the laydown is going to be on you. That's all.

Here's a gem from one of Philip Carlo's books...

...the Gambino family was the largest mafia family in the world.... it had 26 captains, some 2,500 made men, and thousands of associates.

2,500 made men?

Philip Carlo was a chronic bullshitter. And the truth is, he wasn't even a very good writer. Even if you could get past the fact that he was making things up as he went along, his writing style was still annoying. I feel bad that the guy is dead and all, but please, he was no investigative journalist. Hack is more like it.

It makes it difficult to research his works since you have to sift through what is probably bullshit with what isn't. Actually, that's pretty much how it goes with secondary sources on the mob, sans Raab, Anastasia, and a few others who don't present everything as "fact."

I wonder why the Colombos were allowed to have more members than the other two smaller families, especially since they were the youngest family. The 300 made members for the Genovese and the Gambino family does make sense and confirms my own speculation that they had not much more than 300 members at their peak. However, the 125-140 number doesn't correlate with other sources on the Bonannos. It would also mean that the Bonannos would have been downsized since they most likely had more soldiers under Maranzano. Also, Paul Sciacca was heard on wiretaps saying that he the Bonannos had 180 members. As boss he would've most certainly known their exact numbers. Other sources such as the authors of the Sixth Family stated that the Bonannos had 150 members during the Galante period. The Bonannos were also estimated to have this amount of made members during Massino's reign.

9 actually.

Those numbers are total bullshit. The Bonannos had around 300 made guys around 1931. That´s basically the only number you can take to the bank. No outsider (Capeci etc) would have been/would be able to know the exact number of members when the Commission was formed. And this goes for many of the insiders too (D´Arco etc).

Patriarca is closer to 50, Milwaukee is more like 20 and if you count the crews in eastern Upstate NY who are Buffalo made guys but with close toes to Scranton/Pittston, Buffalo has around 60.
Rockford didn't make your list but they have about 10 and are soon to open the books.

Rockford is opening the books? A family can't really servive with only five made guys, but it's possible. The Madison family was the smallest and only had a few guys. I think the reason the families that were close to Chicago were allowed to function being very small as they were is the simple fact they were close to Chicago and the Outfit backed these small families near their territory.

The west side of Rockford has become a gold mine for the family for two reasons.
First, hordes of drug dealers, policy runners and Shylock to get in line, and secondly the renovation and construction that is going on. Millions in "performance bonds" changed hands.
There are literally hundreds of associates from Chicago and the northern burbs who never got made into the outfit, and Chicago has given the green light for some of them to be made into Rockford.
Rockford has the distinction of perhaps being the only LCN family whose activity revolves around a church. The fish fry at St. Ambrosio's is a who's who of both the made Rockford crew and the north side Chicago outfit guys.

Des Moines, Iowa actually had quite a bit of activity when mafia kingpin Louis Fratto ran the rackets there...I believe it was still under the supervision of Chicago.

Delusional nonsense.

The Patriarca family still has 40-50 total members. But Milwaukee certainly doesn't have anywhere near 20 members today. There hasn't been a mob case in that down in over a quarter century. As for Buffalo, an article from last year mentioned a chart the FBI made back in 2006 that showed 23 remaining Buffalo members at the time. A few have died since then so it's around 20 now. Even back in 1989 the family was said to have about 45 members at the time. Not 60 then and certainly not now.

Don't feed the trolls, Ivy .

I try not to but it seems they never find a shortage of people willing to believe their BS.