Luciano gets not respect in Italy?

This topic is likely to be discussed before but I couldnt find it on the forum.

Is it true Luciano didn't get respect from the mafioso when he was exiled back to Italy? We probably all know the story about him getting slapped in public, I also read that the local boss would shake him down and would get the police to put heat on him. Does a boss and founder of the commission getting treated so badly give an indication of what the Camorra and Cosa Nostra truly think about the American mafia?

Supposedly Luciano was given an opportunity to invest in a caramel factory in Sicily by some local Mafioso. According to the story,there was never any profit from his venture,and basically,he was scammed out of his money,and no repercussions ever materialized.

I think that Lucky was close connected with the old Sicilian bosses even before the deportation.So when he went to Italy,he was well recognized and he had a warm welcome into the heroin biz.Dont get me wrong he might had some problems with other bosses but I don't think that he was harassed that much.The biggest problem for Lucky,while in Italy,was the government and later his old pals from the states.They wanted him out of the durg biz or there was another rumour that he wanted a bigger cut.

some clarifications, Lucky Luciano was slapped in the racecourse of Agnano by Pasquale Simonetti, said Pascalone of Nola, who controlled the prices of fruit and vegetable market and was a highly respected camorrista, when he opened the candy factory with Don Calogero Vizzini, were in fact coverage, since in some sweets was hiding heroin, according to legend Lucky Luciano died at the airport of Capodichino where he was to meet with a movie producer to make a movie from his autobiography was killed for this, masking everything with a heart attack, until then no one had challenged his for his role in the international heroin trafficking.

Yes Lucky had a candy factory(little sweets for weddings)but I don't think it was a front for drugs....dunno maybe im worng...because I remember a story about his first big shipment with sweets got ruined by the local police and they found nothing and after it the candy biz was over for him.There was another story,told by this old Italian guy that used to work with Lucky,about some fake dolls auction.Most of the dolls were stuffed with heroin.

Is the Luciano book any good?

No respect in the homeland where is this from.

There are several. Gosch/Hammer, Tim Newark, and Sid Feder wrote 3 biographies.

The most realistic book of them all is the Tim Newark book BUT i gotta quote Jimmy_Two_Times(older poster on this forum) and that is:"... not sure of his "credibility" but he does go out of his way to tear down the Luciano myth...i think perhaps he does that because it provides an alternative to established and accepted belief that he was instrumental in bringing organized crime into the 20th century. That said, I disagree with his premise completely."....and thats my opinion also.Looks like Lucky remains still the most mysterious gangster of them all.Some say hes overrated,some say that he's story is all true.....and thats the way its goin to continue...we will never know the real truth

Tim Newark lost a little credibility with me when he wrote that Genovese was going to be crowned boss of bosses at Apalachin.

But he had interesting info about Lucky's possible role in the death of Thelma Todd. And Newark wrote about how Lucky tried to have Frank Nitti whacked for not vacating the narcotics market in Hollywood. He actually had gunmen shoot at Nitti when leaving a sit down with Luciano. If true, Lucky took his drug dealing very seriously.

I don't believe that for a minute...Not calling the posters here liars, but I don't believe the sources wherever they read that..Someone of Luciano's stature cannot let somebody just smack him in the face and rip him off on deals and not retaliate...He would lose all the respect that he had..Like the one poster rightly pointed out...He died the unchallenged king of heroin distribution from Italy...They don't allow just anybody to control that !!

I stand by what TooDoped says...

As far as being smacked in the face.....from what I have read, Luciano retaliated. The guy showed up dead shortly afterward.

As far as Luciano being ripped off, I believe some are referring to a story told in The Last Testament- but I haven't seen it reported elsewhere. I'm not sure if this is a true story (unlikely), something made up by Lucky, or something created by Gosch's imagination. Lucky invested in a small candy business as a silent partner. The guys running the company were his cousin, Momo Salemi (Lucky's cousin from Lercara Freddi), and Pasquale Enemi. When profits weren't coming in, he sent a different cousin to investigate the factory. Turns out his business partners took the profits and spent it on themselves. And Lucky didn't retaliate. He had his cousin fix up the candy factory and sell it, causing Lucky to lose around $40k on the venture.

Okay, thanks Little Man...Makes alot more sense !!!

I think Lucky's role in American crime, post-deportation is historically overstated and that Newark isn't too far off the mark. Lucky tried one time to stick his hand back in the pot in Cuba and was run out of the country. He really couldn't do anything in Italy without the police and even American agents watching his every move.

I certainly don't discount the possibility that he had a hand in drug smuggling but I don't think he acted in much more than a liaison-type role between the Americans and the Sicilians. He simply had too many eyes watching him. Once Costello was shot, he probably lost what little influence he still retained in the States.

I'm 50-50 with that...It was the G that stopped Luciano in cuba, not cosa nostra, which showed he had so much power and respect, that leaders of the country would go cow tow to him in another country...But i agree with you, It seems when Genovese took on Costello, that was a sign that he wasn't the power in NYC anymore !!!

Lucky lost a lot of friends/allies in the fifties, culminating in Costello, whose power had already been rapidly drained by his poor showing in the Kefauver hearings and his subsequent troubles with the IRS, not to mention Genovese breathing down his back for control of the family. Once Adonis was deported and Moretti and Anastasia were killed, Costello and Luciano lost strong allies and a lot of power. Lansky also saw that the writing was on the wall but was smart enough not to get too involved with the Italians so he basically took a backseat for the rest of his criminal career, which also hurt Luciano as he was probably his biggest ally and he still had pull within Vegas and the Jews like Moe Dalitz, Doc Stacher, etc., who had shares in the casinos and were skimming off the top too.

And that's probably all true snakes..but that doesn't mean they would ignore their boss and let guys in italy smack him around in public....that's just not feasible !!

joe Adonis btw, is probably the most underrated power in US history !!!


you seem pretty knowledgable !!

I considered Lucky the boss of the Luciano/Genovese family while he was in jail, and even after he was deported. When Costello retired and Genovese took over the reigns of the family, that is when Lucky lost his influence. The LToLL said that he was getting around $25k/month. I assumed that this included the boss's cut of crime revenue.

And Luciano was very strong in Havana, imo. After all, he called the meeting and top mobsters came. And it was on the turf secured by his right hand man, Lansky. As per TLToLL, attendees brought envelopes for Charlie, which he parlayed into points into a casino Lansky was building in Havana. Was that fabricated BS, or did Charlie really receive envelopes in Havana?

There are fbi reports sayin that Frank Sinatra also brought money to Luciano in Havana.Was that mob money or something else,i dont know...

Heres an fbi report from anonymous FBI agent that visited Lucky on board the Laura Keene before leaving the docks.Its showing the respect other gangsters had for Luciano:

“Upon my arrival there, I saw a gang or mob of 60 to 80 men and about 20 to 30 cars. I have no idea to their identity or their purpose for being on hand.When the ship left the pier at 8:50 a.m., a launch followed the ship for three miles."

The agent guessed it was members of the press trying to get one final shot of Luciano. The agent left the ship at 2:00 p.m. when he caught a ride on a fishing ship returning to the Brooklyn docks.

Maybe the stories about Lucky getting envelops in Havana are true...who knows

During the time when Lucky was deported and Costello was considered the official boss of the family....was Lucky still receiving an overall cut of the family's profits, like a don?

According to Tim Newark's biography, Joe Biondo was the go between with the family and Luciano. He brought Luciano his slice of the profits and discussed mob related matters with him. Costello was paying Luciano money, one payment reached $70k. And during this time, Luciano was receiving trans Atlantic phone calls from Costello, Adonis, and Mangano. I believe that Lucky was recognized as the head of the family at the Havana meeting.

Is it possible that until 1957, Luciano was still at the top of the crime family in a low key fashion, similar to Accardo/Ricca in Chicago?

No, I don't believe that, but I do believe that he still had enough investments in America to warrant some type of cut from the States. As I've stated a few times in this thread already, that source of income began to dry up as Lucky's allies lost power in the fifties.

Costello became, for all intents and purposes, the full-time boss of the family once Lucky was booted from Cuba.

It's interesting that there's still so much mystery about luciano given that he was so high profile in his day.

I've always found it interesting how much respect Bonnano seemed to have for luciano. In Man of Honor Bonnano does not shy away from taking shots at his old business associates and lucky is the only one outside of his allies that joe talks about in a way that makes it seem as though he respects him.

Joe did greatly benefit from lucky doing what he did even if it was because lucky killed his mentor maranzano, but while joe doesn't talk much about lucky, he never says anything bad about him which is more than he can say for a lot of other guys in that book.
Joe doesn't go out of his way to compliment the man, but if you read between the lines in how he talks about everybody and how he talks about luciano, there's clearly a respect there

I'll admit that at one point, I thought that Bonanno hated Luciano.

As per the War of the Godfathers, Bonanno funneled damaging information about Luciano to Dewey, which helped convict him. Bonanno even schooled the prostitutes how to lie on the stand. With Luciano out of the way, Bonanno would be able to be recognized as the most powerful don.

Afterward I found out The War of the Godfathers was a fictional book and I felt like an idiot for believing it was a true story.

My opinion is that Luciano had to get respect in Italy, for three reasons.

One was heroin, and lots of it. Supposedly Lucky was a key player.

Two was he was said to have inspired the formation of the Italian Commission, or the Cupola, just as he formed the Commission in the States by whacking the top Boss and then decreeing that neither he, and no one else, would be a Boss of Bosses.

Three was that Italian talk in the street described Luciano was Capo di Tutti Capi. So to everyday folk, Lucky was the Godfather of Godfathers. In a way I agree, since by aligning yourself with Luciano at that time, you as a Boss received the umbrella of protection from the majority and the majority leader.

the Thelma todd story is Luciano murdering a movie star, for little or no reason. there is no honor in that. my opinion of Luciano went south when I learned of that murder. what happened to "we only kill our own"

The last testament of lucky Luciano was a great read and very interesting. How much of it is true is definetly up for debate. He does ridicule Vito a lot In the book think he keeps referring to him as that little pain in the ass, who's main business concern was dope dealing

"The Last Testament of Lucky Luciano" was a fraud. It has been thoroughly investigated and debunked. The FBI came to that conclusion, then New York Times reporter Nicholas Gage, and many others. The most thorough examination was in Informer magazine:

http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/april-issue-of-informer-journal-available-now

http://www.scribd.com/doc/90408801/2012-02-Informer-Apr-2012

And there's absolutely no evidence to connect Luciano to Thelma Todd in any way. None. I have contemporary newspaper accounts and her inquest record and his name never came up once. That was something that was made up many years later in the book "Hot Toddy."

faithful 1 ive read the "the last testament" there are some things in the book that I think ring true. the killing of abe reles for one. the story Luciano gives in the book is he approached Costello about the situation and, Costello said " the cops will have to do it" Luciano agreed, he then said Costello gave capt bals 50,000 dollars and the cops threw him out the window. I believe that to be credible, also luciano relates to the author that he beat up vito Genovese in cuba in 1947. the new book "Cuban nocturne" mentions that Luciano had a fight with vito in cuba about that time.

I haven´t read "Cuban Nocturne" but many authors use that dreadful Luciano book as a source when writing their own.

the book may be "havanna nocturne" any way its a great read. I get my book titles mixed up, im an old guy.

The Last Testament was entertaining if nothing else, wasn't it.

I don't know how true it is. What does ring true about it for me is only the dialect and language Luciano seems to use throughout it. Other quotes attributed to Luciano seem to use the same language. You can tell from his quotes that if nothing else, he was a fast thinker, to the point, and no nonsense. $$$

I said earlier in the thread that Luciano was rumored to have inspired the creation of the Cupola in Italy. Another anecdote I've read said that it was actually Joe Bonanno that came up with the idea of an Italian Commission. By the way it was phrased, it made it seem as if it was merely a suggestion made at a meeting/think tank, not a "my way or the highway" sort of pronouncement the way Lucky Luciano did back in the 30's.

alfa romeo, don't you think that the way Luciano set the organization up benefited the families for decades, and the commission did in fact move against dutch Shultz when he was set to murder Thomas dewey, the commission was badly needed if it had no presence can you imagine all the wars. as far as the "last testament" goes isn't it all we have from Luciano.

Binnie, Luciano not only set up the Commission (with help from his pre-Mafia multi ethnic connections), but also I read somewhere that he actually closed the books. You couldn't even get made for a few decades until the books reopened, from 1931 to 1954. Think about that. No Donnie Brascos, no Jack Falcones, no infiltrators. Informants yes, but undercovers no. And if you were a real bonafide crook, you still couldn't get made, probably up until 1954 when they opened the books again. Then the books closed again four years later. That was immensely protective of the old American Cosa Nostra. The old outfit had a lot more collaboration between the Mafia and corrupt law enforcement and politicians. It was easier to kill then, forensics not being then what they are now. No DNA. Nothing. And Murder Incorporated on the loose. Lucky and the rest of the bosses had it made back then, as much as you can have it made while fearing for your life everyday.

Yes, the Commission whacked Dutch. But the victors write the histories, therefore we only know the excuse. Notice how every book written by every rat always puts them in a good light? Or when they recount a murder, like Riccobono did, the guy really deserved it? Notice how every mob tale has most of the victims deserving to be hit? The truth is that we just don't know. Was Maranzano actually planning to hit Lucky and his friends? We don't know. All we know is that this is the excuse Lucky and the others gave the rest of the bosses for whacking Maranzano. Was Dutch killed only and just because of the reason we were given? Who knows.

And there is more on Luciano, lots of anecdotes and dialog. You're gonna love this one Binnie....

Mail order a book called "Lucky Luciano Was My Target" by Sal Vizzini.

I read that one.

Also get "Vizzini: The Secret Lives of America's Most Successful Undercover Agent"

Who is Sal Vizzini? Sal Vizzini was an agent for the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, the predecessor of DEA. Sal Vizzini eventually became a police chief in South Miami USA. You can read a bit about him using your search engine. Sal Vizzini "befriended" Lucky Luciano and gives us countless quotes from Charlie himself. He even describes tattoos on Charlies body. He describes even the first time he met Lucky and describes him up close, every detail and pockmark.

Sal Vizzini in his book details how he blew up a cocaine warehouse of some kind, killing many people in the process. He makes no apologies for the murders because he felt he did what needed to be done in the name of law enforcement and fighting drug trafficking. Before we say his story is false, remember that he was a police chief in Miami USA with these words attributed to him and I think he is still living. Like many undercovers he seems to either nearly cross the line of morality or engage in activities that make him seem suspect of going beyond the law.

You need to get those books.

alfa romeo, great post, very informative, especially about bosses being hit. youre right, how do we know the reasons. read the vizzini book a few years ago, its not mentioned much for some reason. its proof positive of lucianos heroin dealing I remember reading that he got high up in sicilys drug trade, also if I remember correctly the heroin came from france to be processed in sicily, he was working with a Sicilian one time and the man had lost an eye he told vizzini, "its ok I got another one" cant help from wondering why the book wasn't a best seller, its as if someone put the hex on it, ill bet hardly anyone in this room has heard of it. thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Vizzini's illustration of how Luciano navigated through Italian terrain gave some of us our first glance into the dealings of the Corsican Mafia, the Unione Corse. That is one of the things that just grip your attention in Vizzini's book. He might have also mentioned the Turks.

When you look at how huge Lucky Luciano was, and then you contemplate that only someone as massive as him could deal with multiple mafias across continents, it's mindblowing. Lucky was having simultaneous dealings with American Cosa Nostra, Sicilian Cosa Nostra, Unione Corse, maybe Turkish Mafia from where the Opium originated, and who knows who else.

You noticed the hex too didn't you. So did I. Today's writers on Lucky Luciano ignore Sal Vizzini, ignore his books, his undercover work. They treat him as if he is a blowhard who embellishes and inflates his accomplishments. But Sal Vizzini was a man of a thousand faces, from the old DEA before it was called DEA, someone who could sit down with Joe Pistone and possibly teach him a thing or two over a cup of coffee. Someone like that deserves serious consideration. Joachim Garcia (Jack Falcone) is another legend, but he was partly trained by Joe Pistone if we believe what Pistone says in his book. Vizzini and Pistone are the schoolmasters of undercover work. Garcia is like a master's master apprentice.

The black out against Sal Vizzini might extend beyond the sphere of professional writers. It might have something to do with his relationship with law enforcement itself. It's not only writers who don't utter his name. It's also law enforcement speaking to the media who simply seem to have amnesia when it comes to Sal Vizzini. To guess why, I will need to read his book again to get clues to that.

alfa, yeah, there is something going on there, he did everything he was asked to do. is he stil alive? why has he never shown himself? like yourself I believe the questions have answers. looking forward to your next new topic.

never heard he wasn't respected in italy. i mean he was from there and he was ontop in america you'd figure he was celebrated over there. but i found this interesting.

Few things:
Lucky was from Lercara Friddi, it didn't have a strong mafia pressence, and he didn't have relatives in the mafia.
Lucky operated mostly in Naples and Rome, from what I understand.
Lucky connects to heroin started out diverting legal opiates to the black market, then by his connections to French Corsicans through the oss (CIA)
Lucky depended on reliable people in the states to maintain power when he got deported, this is one of the major misconceptions I think people have, they forget these guys are JACKALS. When lucky gets deported EVERYONES power increased, yet people seemed convinced that these guys would be tripping over themselves to pay him respect and send tribute when he's locked away for 50 years or thousands of miles away.
Someone mentioned JOe BIondo as LUckys go between, this is interesting cause Biondo was GAmbinos man, to me it corroborates the meeting of Luciano and gambino in 48. It explains the rise of gambino, and is a subtle clue that lucky didn't find Anastasia that reliable, Scalise was anastasias man in narcotics, he was not liked by lucky.
I know people find that last testament fraudulent, but a lot of it is really intriguing...

Not exactly unchallenged, Coppola was actually bigger, four or five families behind him, plus waaaaay more clout in Sicily....

Made a tread on joe Adonis, it has a good link...

I wouldn't say lucky wasn't respected, more like he wasn't really Mafiosi, didn't really believe in it like that, even though he was Sicilian, he was a product of America.
Like Coppola supposedly help organize basically terrorist strikes against political enemies of the CHristian democrats or something, picked the boss of his hometown mafia family, just more pull in Sicily in general.
Like let me ask this question, would VIto GEnovese get slapped in ITaly?
Look at the moves he pulled, with the fascist and the allies. I see him as more powerful in Italy than Luciano but that's just me. ANd he wasn't mafia either, he was from Naples.
I think it was BAdalamenti who avenged that slap to Luciano, he was tied into the drug network via Detroit, and Windsor.
It was best explained in a book I read, in America Luciano operated a power syndicate, in that he directly controlled territory through an army of men.
In Italy, he had an enterprise syndicate, in that he controlled certain aspects of a profitable business, (dope) that he could share with allies, and that was the source of his power

What is this about Luciano being slapped now? By whom? And what are your sources for this? Bottom line is, Luciano was always respected, he still had his allies in the states like Lucchese and Gambino. When he wanted Genovese out of the way, he accomplished that. Like I said in the other thread, he was visited by too many people including Outfit heavyweights, during his time in Italy, to have not been respected. He dealt with and had friendships with Italies top Sicilian mafioso until the day he died, and his heroin pipeline never really dried up as he was still being investigated for it and was set to be charged, up until his fateful heart attack.

Agreed, saying he wasn't respected, is inaccurate.
I read that Lucky got slapped in a book about Sicily, I'll post it soon as I get a chance.
And I mean, I think this thread is more about sifting through the facts and the myths.
I mean BOnnano thought Carlo was a pussy cause Anastasia slapped or almost slapped him, or some shit, but we know what's really real right?
And the guy ended up dead anyway...
I just find it kinda amusing, like people don't even think Luciano could be slapped lol

In fairness, so was Coppola. I mean he ran a narcotics network from Mexico, while at the same time involved in intrigues in Sicily...

What you guys are describing as a hex, this Luciano blackout, covered over by myth, is why I got so interested in Lcn and narcotics. See they were very hooked up into the oss/cia and the FBN/DEA was starting to unravel these embarrassing connections, that the FBI ignored. The blanket denials across the whole mafia spectrum from lucky to Bonnano to BUschetta, to even Hollywood with the godfathers.... I don't wanna go x files on you guys, but I think the intelligence apparatus, kinda kept a lotta shit quiet..

who is coppola?

Frankie "Three Fingers" Coppola.