Is the Mafia just simply a gang?

The Mafia is not the same as it once was, most younger guys are only into selling dope, they don't have political connections like they used to have. So would u say that there just simply gang this day in age nothing more?

Even thougg they are not as powerful as they used to be, i think the LCN is too organized and too entrenched in the economy and other parts of society to being compared to a street gang. But off course if you take all the labels away, they have always been and still are just a bunch of sociopaths who don't give a shit about anyone else and would happily break your legs if they could make a buck off it and get away with it. Oh and btw they have been selling dope for a LONG time, so that isn't new.

No - not in Sicily at least

Simply no.

Guilani put it some thing like this,"that no other criminal organization in history has been able to successfully entrench themselves into the legitimate world and have influence in so many different levels of society like the mafia has." now ofcourse he was speaking about the (not so distant) past, but even today to compare them to a bunch of unorganized black guys on the corner slinging rock is ridiculous.

Exactly. The mob is all about being involved in Legitimate business that fuels Their Illegal activities. Simply put the made men and associates are businessmen and union workers.

Ok I see what u mean if it wasn't for the union being around the mafia would be broksters?

as long as people wanna gamble the mob is never going to be broke.

Define 'gang'.

In many ways they are and always have been a gang.

'A group of people who through membership conspire to commit crime.'

Sounds like just a good a description for the Bloods as it does the West side.

They definitely would suffer some financial issues. My point was that mobsters work regular jobs. It's not reality for most mobsters to sit at home and just collect a paycheck. The only men who get that are the big guys. Your soldiers and associates are responsible of taking care of the legitimate end of the deal. Which is Business. Long days and any stressful hours invested. They earn their payday let me tell you that.

Was he referring to American history (Guilani) or world history? Either case I would disagree to some extent.
Why use that comparison to black dealers?
@botz Yes, they still can fall under gang. There are many definitions of "gang" and just our society seem to conjure up images of bangers/bikers since they been called a gang left and right. But la cosa nostra is included as well since they're roots goes back to being one themselves. After all a "mob" is an organized "gang".

the italian mafia, yakuza, triads and a couple other organizations are more than a gang

Traditionally I would say that the Mafia was more than a gang. But as of today I have to kind of concur. They don't have the power that everyone wishes they did and the sum of their actions can be compared to any other gang. So formally, are they more well structured than a gang, yes. Power wise, I'd say they are equal with some gangs.

I'm talking America, Not Italy, those guys are on another level across the pond.

When Carlo Gambino and Tommy Luchese were alive and active, the mafia was a 'shadow' government and a group of 'shadow' corporations. NYC judges could not be 'made' without prior approval of Frank Costello. The 5 fams of NY and Chicago are definately not 'gangs'. Some of the smaller fams left... maybe so.

Yea but you think these guys still control judges and politicians? the creator is not talking the past but rather the present day power.

what gangs do you think are as powerful as the five families are in the tri state area, please name me one black, latino, russain, albanian, chinese, or whatever the fuck, that is more diversified and has more reach into legitimate industries as the italians do(in the tri state area). Now philly is a different story, i think since merlinos reign began they could pretty much be categorized as a gang. Theyve had little to no involvement with unions, and have been brought down to a street operation where over the past 15 or 20 years they have been the most active in shaking down drug dealers, gambling, and putting money out on the street. Now does any1 really think the five families are on the same level as philly?

Are the Colombo's still that strong? For some reason, I thought they were down to about 40-50 made guys. Are they still in control of unions?

JCB, according to Raab's FF book, he estimates the made guys as more than that.

It gets interesting with the defections- I've been curious as to which family was damaged the most. Bonannos with Good Looking Sal, Richard Canterella and Big Joey Massino flipping. Luccheses with Al D'Arco, Gaspipe, Fat Pete Chiodo flipping. The Colombos with Wild Bill's son flipping, and Greg Scarpa feeding them info.

Do the rats actually cause enough damage to the families to the extent they shake up the power rankings? Or is the damage small in the big picture?

JCB thats prob a fair number on the street. Another 30odd in jail.

Philly cant come close to 80 buttons.

Has any of the other families outside NY and Chicago ever been close to 100 made guys?

Hell's Angels for one I think would give them a run for their money. All of your talk of unions and branching into legitimate business is for the damn birds. Last big time legit business was the crap in Texas and they are all about to get ass reamed for doing it. Your living in the past, the Italians are no where near as strong as they used to be. You like to watch the Sopranos and Goodfellas and say "oh man look at the power they have" when in reality they have been reduced to bird shit.

The Gambino's and Genovese's had 200 or more at one point. Most of the 5 Families had 100 or more in their heyday.

Great article from NY Magazine and Jerry Capeci. This was from a while back in 2005, but Capeci at the time estimated the Colombo's at 75-85...that has to be severely reduced now after all the convictions and turncoats.

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/crimelaw/features/10870/

Are you responding to my question? If so i meant other than NY, i know the Gambinos and Genovese are currently estimated at 200 members and the other 3 are estimated at roughly 100.

im not looking for an argument here and I'm no fanboy, IM A STREET GUY! lol jk, but for real i am a (lowly) union worker in nyc, now for the record, my union is for the most part pretty clean(free of mob influence), but within certain aspects of the construction industry LCN presence is just a way of life. and im not talking about them taking over and extorting legitimate business and companies(at least not on a large scale), i said "reach into industries". it is well documented of the mobs involvemnt in garbage hauling in the city, westchester county, conneticuit, and all over north jersey and on the waterfront in new york, new jersey and florida(and yes im talking about recently,not the past http://nypost.com/2013/01/17/feds-snare-30-in-mob-garbage-sting/, just one of many examples). Now i understand perfectly what your saying about how the mob isnt as strong as some people on here wish it would be(im not one of those people) but its getting to the point where some people are so intent on not being seen as a "fanboy" that your completely missing my point. now im not saying it is like it was in the 70s and 80s or hell even the 90s, but i get the impression you think im saying theyre this all powerful and all knowing organization, and your saying they're "birdshit", come on man there is plenty of middle ground. And i see very little evidence that the hells angels could "give the mob a run for their money" as the most powerful oc group in the tri state area. do they have their own niche in the drug and extortion rackets? of course, and plenty other of stuff, they even work with italians sometimes when its mutually beneficial, but i just dont see the evidence that they have the reach the mob does.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you either bro, but I don't believe personally that these guys have judges and politicians in their hands anymore though. Guess what I'm trying to say is the prestige isn't there anymore.

no one is saying these guys have judges and polticians in their pockets "like nickels and dimes", that shit was over rated even back in frank costellos day. yes in many ways it has lost its "prestige"(or at least the illusion of it), just look at the bust of nicky mouths santoras crew from a few months back, those guys were defiantly sloppy, selling weed and fucking viagra pills and running a medium sized book, but even those guys had their hands in the unions.

No, they're not simply a gang. And arguing that they are is just silly. There hasn't been a criminal organization in postmodern history as far reaching as the mob was at its peak. End of story. But if you're a moralist and asking yourself whether your average LCN guy is a "better" person than you're average gangbanger, the objective answer is no.

If a guy shows up to do you harm over some money, or shake you down for part of your hard earned business, then it doesn't make a bit of difference if he's wearing a Brioni suit and a pinky ring or he's wearing a doo-rag and sporting a gold tooth. Right is right. Wrong is wrong. And crime is crime.

By the definition of Gang, yes it is and that could apply to many other organized crime groups such as the Cartel, Triads e.t.c. What makes the Italian Mafia's different from other ordinary gangs is how , lime many others have said it is entrenched in the legitimate economy and has political ties.

The Italian - American Mafia for the most part has lost it's political power that it once had in it's heyday. The same goes for it's ties to unions but that still remains a major factor for the mob in America. The other thing I think separates it from other gangs is it's structure and codes of conduct. Now, I know the Mafia says "Oooh we don't do this, we do this and don't kill women" e.t.c. we all know that's total BS, the rules can be bent over and over again to suit the needs at a particular time, we all know this.

However the fact that they have these so called codes of conduct still means some members and associates will obey them and will think twice before breaking them, instead of not having them at all. They are more like guidelines than rules.

They are also not just a gang in the sense that they are a secret society of criminals. They aren't throwing out gangs signs or dressing up in colors, the most obvious thing they could do is dress dapper like Gotti, but even that doesn't prove they are part of a gang as if they had tattoo's, it just matches the stereotype Gangster.

As for the Mafia's in Italy, Cosa Nostra, Camorra, Ndrangheta and SCU, although they also are gangs by definition, I don't think I need to explain why especially they are not your average thugs.

I mean, siphoning off EU funds for Green projects?!

What racket does the mob make the most income off of?

Bookmaking

I agree much with your post. But I also think that some posters have forgot about the Chinese tongs and local syndicates in other areas of our country that had/have politicians in their pockets too (except labor/union racketeering, la cosa nostra practically invented/innovated that). On the other notion of structure and code of conduct; 1% percenters, prison orgs, & Chicago street orgs have it too.
Also agree with your comment about the gang signs/colors but they carry themselves more or less like fraternities , but even then it can be hard at time to tell who's a member (strictly speaking Chicago orgs).

They aré a gang but not a street gang. They still have construction and garbage along with many other businesses and unions. Name any legitimate businesses or industries controlled by any other ethnic gang anywhere in the country.

And there-in lies the complete answer to this thread.

That number could be about right if you're taking active members on the street. But the family has approximately 100 or so total members.

Over the past decade, there have been Colombo cases involving the Operating Engineers Union, Concrete Workers Union, and a few others.



I don't think anyone is saying the Italian mob is as strong as it used to be. But it's still very much a force in New York, including in both unions and legitimate businesses. Do your research.



The most recent estimates still put those families at about 200 members each.



His figures were in a little strange in that one because some of them seemed to be inflated, while the Colombos seem low-balled. There were 112 members cited in the 2004 NJ OC report. And 100 or so members have been cited in more recent articles. There's over 90 listed on the forum chart.



Except, for the most part, the Chinese groups' influence didn't extend beyond their own communities. The labor racketeering is what really gave the LCN the clout to effect society in general.

The Latin Kings reported having a beeper store, a dance hall and a pool hall, while the Latin Dragons ran a bakery, a beeper store and a fast-food restuarant.

The Gangster Disciples owned a long list of business enterprises, including clothing stores, grocery stores, jewelry stores, restaurants and an airbrush shop.

The Black Disciples owned businesses as well, according to the recent indictment.

Black Disciple higher-ups Varmah and Varney Voker allegedly used some of their drug profits to buy a nightclub in Atlanta. The Voker twins renamed it Club 2winz and made payments of $20,000 every three weeks in cash until they had paid about $180,000, according to the federal indictment.

Donnell Jehan, the gang's third in command, also played entrepreneur, forming D.B.T. Construction Inc. in 1999. The initials stood for Distinguished Black Tradesmen.

Likewise, Black Disciple leader Marvel Thompson, who held the title "king," was interested in the construction business, incorporating Royal Improvement Ltd. in 1993. (Royal Improvement and D.B.T. Construction were involuntarily dissolved by the state in 2002.)

Thompson also owned a rap record label and a recording studio known as M.O.B. Records Inc. The studio in Englewood produced a hit song, the "Cha Cha Slide," which was performed by Chicago deejay Mr. C.

Ald. Arenda Troutman (20th), who was questioned by investigators after a Chicago police envelope addressed to her was found in the home of a Black Disciple, said she thought she was dealing with legitimate businessmen.

"They talked like businessmen. They were dressed like businessmen. They had business to discuss," she told reporters.

The "unorganized black guy" on the corner slinging rocks more time than not work for some very organized Black guys. Since the old time Black policy/numbers racketeers there has and is been very organized Black crime syndicates. Black gangs in several cites around the country have pushed out or forced Italian mafia to work with them on equal terms there are many Black associate partners within Italian organized crime. So what you see on the corner is a mere scratch on the surface

Jeezus proofread.

First half illegible.

black gangs are not organized like the mafia, they are by far more disorganized except maybe the nigerians in africa

This has to do with the close proximity of Nigeria to Sicily. They do business like the sicilians do and lately involved in human trafficking.

Carmela, Nigeria is quite far away from Sicily. The nigerian syndicates have been applying the trading routes techniques to their networks when they expanded worldwide.

M2w, it's been proven that certain black gangs have organizational structure equal (more/less) to the mafia.

Not far enough by the way the migrants have been flooding into Lampedusa by the boatloads daily, along with the somalians.

Nice one, you got me for a second.

Jokes aside, I believe that nigerians have been involved in human trafficking for a while now. They do not cover the "trip" to Lampedusa tho, that's handled by tunisian/libyan groups.

As for the gang thing, I do believe that the term could fit them, but society does give a different weight to each "label".

To me a gang stops being a gang and becomes a mob when members and profits increase and the overall organization gets layered and better structured. Plus their activities get diversified as well.

I have my moments.

While clearly diminished from its peak, I think it's fair to say that the American LCN is still high up there in terms of organized crime. Still, just because it does its fair share of white collar crime, the families still do plenty of street crime -- burglaries, drugs, etc. To me, all that really separates the Five Families from, say, the Bloods and the Crips is that the Five Families have had the network connections to get plugged into more advanced forms of crime. You're more likely to meet up with corrupt business owners, politicians, trade union officials, contractors, etc. in a white middle-income community than an extremely impoverished African-American community. Of course, as BlackFamily indicated, it is certainly not unheard of for the leaders of black street gangs to integrate themselves into the legit business world, even if it is just to set up fronts.

Still, considering the number of turncoats, attention from the government, and just plain violence the USA LCN has had to deal with, it's amazing to me that the Five Families continue to exist at all. "Omertà" no longer seems to exist (to the extent it ever really existed) and even if a connected or made guy doesn't already have an incentive to flip to avoid jail time, a trigger-happy boss or underboss or even capo is another reason to abandon organized crime.

Why do people still get into it? They just fall in with a bad crowd growing up? Or are they still lured from the false prestige and tradition that surrounds Mafiosi? Or some combination of the two?

I'm also curious as to whether the Genovese family is still the "biggest and baddest" of the Five Families and how much of that is owed to avoiding the problems the other families have faced (not as many turncoats, no bloodthirsty leaders like in the Lucchese). Or is the "Ivy League" reputation still valid, in that Genovese Mafiosi are genuinely smarter than your average thug?

the Geneveses are reported to have around 200 made guys so that puts them right around the size of the gambinos, maybe just a little bigger. To me why the Geneveses are still the strongest goes back to after the 1985 commission trial, The Lucheses went from Corrallo to the "bloodthirsty" Vic and Gas, The Gambinos went from big Paul to Gotti, the colombos had Persico clinging onto power from prison which caused a war causing numerous people to flip and many many more to get arrested, The bonnanos thrived for a while under Massino until the feds started to close in on them and everyone started to flip. All four of those families are just now starting to stabilize from those reigns while the Geneveses have been thriving all along cause Gigante avoided being charged in the case and remained on the street installing secrecy and discipline in the families ranks that still exist today through guys like Bellomo, Cirillo, muscarella, Dentico and many others, i mean theyve only had like 6 made guys flip and 3 of them were from the springfield mass crew.

Rudy Guiliani actually said it best. These mob docu's always say "We ended the mafia". Some retired DA taking credit for "putting EVERYONE away". Guiliani said once, "We turned the MOST POWERFUL organized crime group in America into JUST ANOTHER organized crime group in America."

^Realistic statement without over doing it.

That's true, Dellacroce. But it goes back a lot further than that.

They've always been the most disciplined and low key. I mean, of the New York families the Westside is the organization that most closely resembled the Chicago Outfit at its peak. And by that I just mean that they always stressed getting into legitimate businesses for cover, joining country clubs, and fraternizing with the upper class.

Frank Costello got a lot of press for being obsessed with blending in with a better class of people, but it wasn't just him. All of the Genovese captains that he made had the same mindset. Here it is three generations later and their families are still spending what I always refer to as generational wealth. You can't say that about a lot of wiseguys. I've known of modern day skippers who left their kids broke .

Also, the Westside was the first family to see the benefit of the plea deal. Gotti would kill you for making a deal, the Westside will kill you for NOT making a deal .

One more thing: They have been a little bit lucky as well. You can't discount that luck and chalk up everything to them being the smartest.

To bad Jimmy IDa Didnt feel that way, the guy wouldve been out by now instead of doing life, the guy must be kicking him self every day over it. But yes hes definatly the exception. Ya it seems the Gambinos still havent gotten into the plea deals, shown most recently with Bobby Glasses, guy gets offered 12 years for a double murder rap, he turns it down so now hes gonna die in prison(most likely).

Yeah, in hindsight Jimmy had a pretty sweet deal offered to him. But he decided to roll the dice, and that's that. I'll tell you this much: That guy is a man, and he's not crying about it .

But the guys who REALLY have an ax to grind are Gene Gotti and John Carneglia. They would have been home YEARS ago if not for John's refusal to let them plea out. But John was thick like that. He wouldn't even let Joe Armone come home for one last Chrismas by admitting that he was a Gambino. In hindsight, what harm would it have done?

I doubt anything did more harm than Gotti himself, "I John Gotti, will severe your mother fu**ing head off", haha seems the guy really liked to hear himself talk. i read one of the US attorneys during that time gave Gotti credit for almost every Gambino guy brought down during Gottis reign because of the way everything was done so out in the open. Now im sure thats just some typical prosecuter banter, buts its probably true to a certain extent.

In the WSJ article I posted in the restaurant thread they talk about how Gotti avoided "walk talks" in the winter because it was too cold. Really? You make yourself out to be some hard-ass man's man mafioso and you'd rather be warm and bugged than cold and discreet?

I think the still existing differences between the Mob and other (original american!) crime groups are summed up good by this wikipedia-entry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gus_Curcio

Yeah, one thing that sets the LCN (particularly the 5 NY families) apart from most other groups is it's longevity. These are organizations that have been running for nearly a century. The Italians had that culture and tradition that kept it going long after the Irish and Jewish mobs were history. Over the past 30 or 40 years, attrition has taken it's toll and, as a result, many of the LCN families are gone or nearly so. But the NY families won't be going anywhere anytime soon. Not only have they been able to maintain their relative membership count in recent times, they are still very diversified. And that diversification is another thing that sets them apart from many other groups. And one of the reasons the Genovese family is still the strongest.



Agreed. That's a very good way to put it.

Another good quote from Giuliani, that hits on this very topic is below...

"If we take back the labor unions, the legitimate businesses, eventually they become just another street gang. Spiritually, psychologically, they've always been just a street gang."

that pretty much sums it up

FUCK THAT.

Whoever here doesnt think the mafia is a gang is simply, kidding themselves.

You draw a distinction between a black or mexican gang slinging crack on street corners, but the 'Ndrangheta or Camorra is NOT A GANG?

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE 'Ndrangheta and Camorra DO?!?!? Ship fucking coke to the US!

So then I guess its about quantity? A gram is a gang, a kilo is OC?

BULL-SHIT. They are all members of a fraternity which is structed, organised and sells fucking coke.

Nit-picking about quantity is a bullshit excuse. Sell a gram and you're a hood, a kilo and youre a busnisman?

Youre a criminal, gangster, lowlife. The details are fucking semantics.

Yeah maybe drunk. But grow up.

I think you can make a distinction between highly disciplined and organized Mafia groups (not just LCN, but also the Yakuza, Russian Mafiya, the Mexican drug cartels, etc.) and far less disciplined street gangs, and it doesn't just have to be about scale. I am not a sociologist or a criminalogist so there might be an academic threshold I am not aware of, but to me what separates something like the LCN or Yakuza from your typical youth gang in a neighborhood is that the former have very clear hierarchies, strict internal processes for handling matters major to mundane and are capable (and not just willing) of handling more "advanced" forms of crime. The Fruit Town Pirus in Compton, CA may be more than willing to transport heroin from Southeast Asia and then market it wholesale, but they don't have the knowledge, means or connection to do that. They end up on the distribution side of things.

It's interesting you mention the 'Ndrangheta and Camorra because, based on what I've read about them, even though they are engaged in drug trafficking there is also a lot about them that resembles the undisciplined, much more overtly violent neighborhood gangs I mentioned above. In the US, while the LCN may have started out as being very community-oriented and centered around family networks, it's obviously gone much more underground and, as IvyLeague said, has diversified. With the 'Ndrangheta and Camorra, seeing as they have their roots as regional support groups due to a state that either neglected or antagonized them, they are much more open and a fixture in certain parts of southern Italy. They exist both as the shadowy mob we know here in the USA as well as the more obvious thugs walking around with guns, looking menacing. You watch something like Gomorrah and the posturing the kids do to imitate the Camorra, it's much more like how many kids in the USA imitate in appearance and in petty crime the gangbangers they've come to idolize in popular culture. And those gangbangers in turn aspire to imitate the higher tier of crime above them, looking up to Lucky Luciano, Al Capone, John Gotti, etc.

I totally agree that we shouldn't glamorize criminals or what they do but to blur all lines for the sake of staking a moral claim that "all lowlifes are the same" seems to be a bit excessive. Academics or even armchair scholars can study something, form categories and draw distinctions without romanticizing what it is they are studying.

The only thing is, with gangs like the camorra, and even cosa nostra, those boys grow up on the streets of naples or in backward provinces of sicily like agrigento, there is no work. So even the mothers groom their sons to be good soldiers and work like their fathers. You're born into your family, which most likely already has mafia ties and connected. So it's either you renounce it and get an education and look for any remedial job, sit on unemployment for years, or are lucky enough to get work, or you stick to your mob ties.
On the streets of those cities, you either eat or you're eaten.
But in the US, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to be involved, or actively try and join mafia.

And they're all part of a gang. Hence the word "gangsters". Some just more organized than others.

Was it really THEM who turned it in just another organized crime group? I think it was more the consequence of the natural death of extremely powerful and charismatic characters like Carlo Gambino, Tommy Lucchese, Philip Lombardo etc that did the work, rather than the law enforcement. I can't know for sure, of course, but I think that if those characters were still alive and in power through the 80s and 90s, then the mafia would be weakened only in the 2000s. Human society is too corrupt and hypocritical to allow somebody like Carlo Gambino to get a life sentence or 100 years. It was difficult enough to give life even to a stupid thug like Gotti.

What, we don't have poverty in the United States? We're living in a time when even kids from well-to-do middle class families are coming home from college because they can't find a job right out of school. For the working class poor it's even worse. Admittedly, the poverty in parts of Italy is much more intense than is typically found in the United States, but there can't be too much separating the slums of Naples, Lecce or Palermo from certain neighborhoods in U.S. inner cities. In both cases there is a lot of pressure to not just be a violent macho man but also to turn your nose up at a system that doesn't work for you (which can be a justified perspective).

When it comes to the US LCN in particular, however, I do acknowledge that most families in Bensonhurst or Ozone Park aren't living hand-to-mouth, even if they are working class. Still, the vast majority of Mafiosi aren't Ivy League intellectuals; they're blue collar regular Joes who, for whatever reason, came up streetwise and probably already connected.

Granted, each of them makes a choice to pursue a life of crime but it also has to be conceded that once they go down that road it's hard to rehabilitate yourself. The U.S. criminal system and society in general does not make it easy for that to happen. Once you have a record, it's pretty much impossible to find a really good job that pays well. You could maybe work a couple of dead-end menial jobs to make ends meet, 9 to 5 for a boss you hate and sees you as an expendable commodity. But maybe you got a family to feed, you're behind on your car payments...

Then you have to see the crooks in the neighborhood, the guys with the stolen suits and stolen Cadillacs, flashing their wealth everywhere. They don't work, they just sit in social clubs and play cards or watch TV, and maybe once in awhile they go out on a big score that keeps them flush for a little while longer. Moreover, some of these guys are the same kids you grew up with, who you know are stone cold idiots but who are living a better life than you are, at least in material terms.

Of course we all know that the Mob life isn't any better. You have to fight for every crumb that comes your way, your "brothers" trying to rip you off at every opportunity and a made guy or a capo breathing down your neck to give you everything you work hard to earn. Yeah, maybe you end up making more money even after everyone gets a taste, but it won't last, because now the feds want to know how a broke-dick nobody like you is suddenly wearing Armani and driving a Beamer. And even if you do somehow manage to avoid getting killed by your rivals or arrested by the cops, you can never retire -- you're locked into working your butt off for, again, a boss that just sees you as an expendable commodity. You just traded one pyramid scheme for another, except this scheme doesn't have any sort of workers' rights or other legal protections. In fact, the law is working AGAINST you now.

So the life of a criminal isn't really a "better" life by any stretch, and it's still better to be a working stiff than a crook, but at the same time I can sort of understand why guys go down that road. There is individual responsibility, but environment nevertheless plays a role.

I'm fairly certain that Carmela was referencing the mindset more than the economics. It's just different over there, and unless you've seen it firsthand you probably can't fully understand it.

They drill it into your head from birth over there. If you're a boy, they start grooming you from childhood. If you're a girl, they teach you early on to be dutiful and to support the men in your life (and by extension, to support the local cosca as well). Simple as that.

In America there are plenty of economic reasons to turn to crime, but not nearly as many cultural reasons. And I think that's what Carmela was trying to convey.

And welcome to the boards, Neiman Marxist .

Thanks!

And I can definitely see the cultural distinction. Although based on what little I know about US street gangs like the Bloods and the Crips there is still a "gang culture" in certain neighborhoods as well. The indoctrination starts young for them as well, with boys taught to be hard, to never shy away from violence, to show solidarity with your set, etc.

Again, I am no sociologist, but I would reckon that wherever you go around the world you're going to find this sort of criminal culture prevalent in communities that have been marginalized by mainstream society. African-Americans and other minority ethnicities in the USA (including Italians in the early 20th century), "untouchables" and Korean-Japanese with the Yakuza in Japan, the rural poor and the cartels in northern Mexico, etc.

Law enforcement would be the second biggest reason for the decline of the mob, only behind general attrition.

And I never understood what people mean when they refer to the old bosses as "charismatic." Yes, by and large the old guys were smarter and tougher than their successors. And that's because they were a product of their time. But let's not forget they benefited from their time in ways their successors couldn't, i.e. less scrutiny from law enforcement, attrition hadn't set in yet, etc. So the gap between the old and new guys may not be as wide as some may think. You put a Carlo Gambino or Tommy Lucchese as head of a NY family today, or any time in the last few decades, and without those benefits, and they probably don't look as good.

Yep, RICO is the biggest difference. Just sharing in the profits with another family can get you a life sentence, evidenced by the Concrete Club.

If Gambino or Lucchese were alive today, I think they would operate in the background, behind a front boss. Otherwise, they'd probably be in jail. That's the main reason why Chin escaped prosecution for so long, plus he had to wear pajamas in the street.

Yet RICO was never used until the old bosses died, even if it already existed when they were still around, and those who lived long enough like Accardo were never convicted. I don't know, maybe I am saying nonsense, but I really got the impression that it's as if an informal social order was issued: "don't touch these guys!". Look at Gambino's funerals: RICO did already exist, yet all those politicians, policemen and others didn't consider a harm to their reputation to show up there. I don't think that when for example Domenico Cefalu or Steven Crea die, they will be so honored post-mortem. There clearly was a difference between how bosses who made career back to the 60s and 70s were treated by the law enforcement and how the ones in the 80s and 90s were.

Although im not an expert i could imagine that political corruption was more tolerated in the 50s and 60s, and that probably made it more easy for the old bosses to avoid prosecution and made it easier to infiltrade the legit parts of society and put themself in a possition where more politicians where dependent on them.... Just a thought. By the way i'm sorry if my spelling is a little off - english is a second language to me.

I know, it's crazy that the law was on the books and the government didn't know how to apply it.

Another luxury the old bosses had was J. Edgar Hoover living until '72. I believe the story of Roy Cohn having blackmail photos of Hoover wearing a dress. Cohn's ex wife confirmed Hoover wore dresses and she witnessed him engaging in homosexual acts.

RICO was around, but it wasn't used widely until Reagan took office in 1980. And it wasn't used effectively until the Commission trial in 1986 (when Giuliani and Blakey showed prosecutors how to effectively use it).

As far as the government not getting a RICO conviction on any of the old timers, you're forgetting about Tony Salerno, who was only a few years younger than Gambino and Accardo. And had Big Paul lived, he certainly would have been convicted in that case as well.

Ivy is 100 percent right about this. If those old timers were dealing with a RICO Act, a Witness Protection Program, electronic surveillance and a modern day CSI team, things certainly would have been different.

Now I still agree that those old guys were cut from a different cloth and that they were more effective than their modern day counterparts, but they would have their hands full, too, if they were living in today's world.

Yes, but if Gambino and Lombardo were still active as Commission members in the 80s, would the Commission trial ever be allowed to take place, or if it did, would it have had the same conclusion?

Because almost everybody I talked to and every writer whose books I ever read seem to more or less agree that guys like Fat Tony or Castellano weren't on the same level in terms of ability or influence compared to Gambino/Lucchese/Lombardo/Accardo etc.

On the other hand, whether Fat Tony was the real boss or front boss seems to be still debated.

First big RICO case that i remember was when they used it against the Hells Angels back in the late 1970's. The Angels actually beat the RICO charges. I think Tieri was the first big mob guy to go down on a RICO charge. The law was passed in 1970 but it took close to a decade or so for them to learn how to really nail these guys with it. Not too many guys that i can think of walk these days from a solid rico case.

Are you kidding me? Allowed to take place? This isn't Sicily and you're giving them way too much credit.

Don't forget, the reason the Commission trial was brought about to begin with was because of Joe Bonanno's silly and self-serving book. And last time I checked, Bonanno was one Gambino's contemporaries and one of the original members of the Commission.

What the hell was Bonanno thinking when he wrote that book? It still amazes me that he actually put that book out.

What he did may seem stupid, yet the fact remains that he got away with everything after this, wasn't whacked nor convicted and made money with the book. So, as paradoxical as it seems, he must have known what he was doing.

Very true. Say what you want about Bonanno, but the guy was the original Teflon Don. He did very little time in his life, and he died in his own bed.

I thought he was kicked off of the commission because of the "Donnie Brasco" escapade. I swear I've seen one of those documentaries on TV, and either a former FBI agent or some "Crime/Mob Historian said it.

Is this still being debated today? I thought it was later acknowledged that the Chin was actually in charge, and Salerno was the fall guy.



Agreed. Giuliani didn't care who the dons were. And after the commission trial, the feds went after Gotti with everything they had. And the Chin would have gone away for the Concrete Club if they didn't have Fat Tony as the lightening rod.



Yes, I read that somewhere, also, but don't believe it.
My take is they were kicked off due to the problems stemming from the Bananas war, and his attempt to clip Gambino and Lucchese (and refusal to come and explain).



True. However, the only reason he didn't die in jail was because he was fortunate enough to be kicked off of the commission and retired. Otherwise, he would have been convicted in the Commission Trial.

people talk about the commission like it ruled the entire american mafia

they bullied the northeast families but that' about it

chicago and detroit were also on the commission and they pretty much had say over the midwest famlies or at least had a certain amount of influence over them, so between the northeast and the midwest, that was pretty much the entire american mafia that was under the control of the commission.

chicago didn't give a fuck about what was going on in ny

detroit's power was limited because chicago was in the way

chicago bullied the midwest/west....ny bullied the northeast

Right, new york had the northeast and chicago had the midwest so between them the commision ruled pretty much the entire american mafia with the exception of the south east with marcello and trafficante, but even when marcello had a problem in his family when sam corallos son claimed he was the rightful heir to family, they brought it to new york to settle it.

I think alot of the top guys are still living off what the likes of gambino and luchesse built as far as the unions are concerned. but you are also getting guys sentenced off of drug slayings, home invasions and random acts from the the early 80s 90s. The way i see it mob guys are gonna get treated like street gangs in the near the future. Look at the pill(and heroin) epidemic on staten island and the even the stories ive posted up if you care to look at comments sections on many of those stories theres always people complaining about certain cultures on staten island that allow this to happen through the whole culture of silence(basically racist code for italian american and omertà).

Alot of people on here are comparing italy to america but what they dont get is that the USA is the big leagues of crime whether they like it or not. Gomorrhah is never gonna beat goodfellas or the godfather. groups like the LCN, bloods & crip, gangster disciples, hells angels, columbians, mexicans, indians, arabs and every other ethnicity have to contend with the resources of the US government. Its not like in italy, mexico,nigeria or afghanistan where things are openly corrupt.Kaboni savage, a drug kingpin in philadelphia just got the death penalty recently for something that goes on daily on many parts of the world i mentioned above so before you start talking about the sicilians and calabrians just think about the law and order situation before you do.

as far as the comission is concerned i believe it mostly settled disputes amongst union and probably drug territory more than anything else. Otherwise its just a bunch of carreer criminals separated into different groups trying to make it as difficult as possible to get killed by each other. Otherwise why put a limit on how many people get made, other than to keep yourself in power.

chicago probably didn't even show up to the meeting

Whatever man, why the fuck do i even bother with you

Yes. I always thought as a whole, the commission ran the country, not just a region.

That's how Bugsy was able to go into California and muscle in on the rackets. Dragna didn't want to mess with Luciano, who had the reputation of having the commission behind him.

And according to Frank Ragano's Mob Lawyer, every time Santo Trafficante had a major decision to make, he'd fly to NYC to get input from his LCN contacts. He was given respect, but would have crushed if he crossed the commission, IMO.

And it seemed that when NYC backed Marcello, Corallo had no chance-despite being more experienced and probably more qualified. Costello had a good thing going with Marcello/Long and wanted to keep things running smoothly.

Exactly. Giuliani's hard-on would have been even bigger if he got to try a guy like Carlo Gambino. And I mean that literally. He would have walked into Federal Court with a boner.

Maybe he means Gambino, Lucchese, etc. wouldn't have allowed themselves to get caught up in a case like that. Of course, I don't believe it. Had they been bosses later on, those guys would have also been right there at the defense table.



Bonanno had been deposed back in the 1960's, long before the Donnie Brasco case. However, the case (along with other reasons) were supposedly the Bonanno family lost it's seat on the Commission for a time.



There have been a few guys on the forums who have contended that Fat Tony really was the boss, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Personally, I think they just get a kick out of trying to rewrite history. Cafaro told everyone how it really was and he was closer to Salerno than anyone on these forums. And even if people want to throw out what Cafaro said, for whatever reason, there were government recordings that supported Chin being the real boss; including by Fat Tony himself.



Capeci gave a very good run down of the Commission.

You had the original 7 members - the five NY families, Buffalo and Chicago. Most eastern families without a seat were represented by the Genovese family. Most western families were represented by Chicago. From it's establishment in 1931, the Commission would have national influence for about the next 50 years.

In the 1960's, the Chicago Outfit started to miss more Commission meetings, which eventually resulted in a "two-headed Commission" with Chicago resolving disputed west of them.

In 1961, two additional families received a seat on the Commission - Philadelphia and Detroit.

In 1974, Buffalo lost it's seat when Maggadino died.

In 1977, Detroit lost it's seat when Zerilli died.

In 1980, Philadelphia lost it's seat when Bruno was killed.

In the 1980's the New York and Chicago families lost more contact due to prosecutions that brought new leaders who were unacquainted with each other. The Commission essentially became a New York enterprise.

Thanks for the info, Ivy.

The commission related info from Capeci was interesting. I didn't know that cities were removed from the commission upon the death of the don. I can see how that could happen with the small Buffalo region, but not with Philly and Detroit.

And I'm curious as to why New Jersey and Boston never had seats, even when they were at their peak.

"And I mean that literally. He would have walked into Federal Court with a boner."

-->

Best comment ever.

Perhaps their seat had as much to do with the connections between the bosses themselves and not just the family they represented. By 1977, the Commission's national influence was in decline and there may have been no interest in having Detroit replace Zerilli. In fact, a later Teamster case against the mob said the Detroit family eventually became represented by the Genovese family. As did Philadelphia once Bruno was killed. And it's not like Philly was going to have a seat with all the chaos that followed that.

total sign of disrespect

all 5 families combined couldn't do shit about it

It had nothing to do with "disrespect." Simply that the ties between the families and their leaders were already fracturing by that point.

A gang kills innocent people for initiation. The Mob kills associates or other Made men along With people Who owe them something. So no.

Often, new mob inductees need to commit a murder before getting straightened out.

Innocent men also get whacked by the mob. It could be a union official that won't cooperate with demands from the mob. Or a sanitation operator that won't play along with bid rigging. Or somebody might be in a position to potentially hurt a mobster in an upcoming trial. Sometimes, a mobster could be in competition over a woman. Many times, a murder entails someone getting double crossed.

I believe the bottom line for both gangs and the mob is they need to kill who they are ordered to kill. Their personal opinion on whether or not the victim deserves to die is not taken into consideration.

Ralph Dols is a good example of this, law enforcement is supposed to be off limits, but Cacace had him killed for marrying his ex wife. I guess it would be different if Dols was dirty or even if he was having an affair with her while she was married, all the guy did was marry the wrong women.

Yes but all those people whacked were associates or involved With The mob in some way. Gangs right now are ordered to shut off Their lights and shoot The first person Who flashes Their brights at Their CAR. The mob doesnt play those ignorant games With civilians.

Thats an urban legend, gangs dont really do that.

Correct, that's an urban legend. Although I can understand why someone would believe the story to be true, due to LE incorrectly sending out the warning to others.
http://www.snopes.com/crime/gangs/lightsout.asp



There are many instances where civilians were whacked by the mob. In the examples I gave about honest union officials and honest sanitation execs- they unknowingly chose death over being associated with the mob in any way.

It's not just LCN soldiers and associates that can have civilians killed....mob bosses can be just as guilty. These murders may not have resulted in someone getting straightened out, but still.....Vito Genovese killed a man simply because he lusted after his wife (he actually married her); Gaspipe Casso killed an architect possibly because he didn't want to pay, or felt he looked at his wife the wrong way; John Gotti had a man tortured and killed because he accidentally ran over his son; Lucky Luciano likely had actress Thelma Todd whacked because she didn't want the mob to run a gambling operation over her restaurant, Paul Castellano had his son in law whacked because he was mistreating his daughter, etc...

And plenty of innocent civilians were killed simply for being with the murder victim, or were eye witnesses.

The mob doesnt drive down streets and shoot at a supposed target With innocent civilians around. Gangs do it every day and most The time they shoot at The wrong person while taking out a baby. The mob doesnt play that game!

innocent bystanders have been shot or blown up in the U.S. mafia history

Tell me the last time in recent memory the mob has been involved in a drive by in the United States?

All the news you received about street gangs in today time haven't change much (except social media/Internet) since 113 years ago when Italian gangs was in the ghetto. Mafioso have been doing drive-bys since prohibition. Presently the violence you hear/read about is over various reasons. Also, you have to remember that juveniles make up a good chunk of membership. You ever heard the saying "young,dumb, and full of cum"?

I don't know if he really meant that the mob doesn't kill innocents as much as he means that they don't kill randomly. They also don't kill anybody based on what color t-shirt they're wearing. Also, old school mobsters at least, don't wave a flag telling people what they're into. They don't have 'colors.' The mafiosi who do stick out like that are seen as dangerous idiots (think Gotti). Amongst many gangs its common to talk about your affiliation and crimes. Some even make raps about it.

More anecdotally, imagine your average gang member. Could you see him speding 30 years of his life pretending to being mentally ill? I think that shows the difference.

Some of the dying families may just be gangs now, but the survivors are definitely a diffferent type of more developed criminal organization.

That being said, there were tommy gun drive bys during prohibition. Also, the sicilian mafia uses a lot of bombs, which do take civilian casualties.

Are Italian-American gangs such as The South Brooklyn Boys or Tanglewood Boys still exist? Also philly corner gangs?

The mafia is a gang with structure.

As far as gangs killing randomly, the headlight flashing story was an urban legend. And your typical civilian in a neighborhood isn't killed every day based on the choice of his shirt color. We must be talking about a period of a gang war and the shirt color or football jersey helps identify rival gang members. There's been plenty of LCN mob wars, also.

As far as drive by shootings, the Al D'Arco biography refers to one. That doesn't prove that it happens all of the time, nor does it prove that it never happens.

the old "bloods initiation weekend" emails were a good one, alot of people took them pretty seriously. It even circulated around people in england to. total Bullshit of course, but It would make for a good modern horror movie though.

a more fair comparison would be to compare them when the mob was at its most violent i.e. 70s-early 90s. Theres actually quite alot of violent activity that harmed innocent civilians along the way, although i think that most of it was tied to mob business, and people were just in the wrong place at the wrong and then some random acts too. Also i think that since they had influence over police and courts in certain areas i think they probably had violent crimes covered up during those times.

It's interesting how many lcn bosses and higher ups have ordered the murders of civilians.

Two more examples are Anastasia having Arnold Schuster whacked, and Genovese/Galante having Carlo Tresca clipped.

the last time italian communities were in the condition black neighborhoods are now

not to mention boston, philly and the columbos probably hit innocent bystanders

bonanno soldier gino galestro did a drive by on a house with his crew over a previous assault on an associate. Also oniforio modeica a gambino soldier was convicted recently of a drive by shooting that left a drug dealer and innocent by stander dead. Also the gus boulis hit was a drive by if i recall correctly.