big paul's biggest mistake

Would Paul Castellano's biggest mistake be having Roy Demeo killed?

would gotti have moved on big paul if roy was still alive?

His biggest mistake was in not hitting Gotti.

Gotti was going to move on Paul (basis Ruggiero being caught on tape moving H, which wouldve condemned the crew) irrespective of whether Demeo was alive or not.

Gotti knew it was kill or be killed.
Paul didnt.

Though Pauls future was bleak with an almost certain conviction and life sentence in the commission case. So either way, he was on the way out.

Personally I'd take the bullet.

I agree with Sonny. Paul's choice was dying by the bullet or in prison.

If Roy lived, feeling was that he was going to flip and bury Paul (stolen car ring case). If he didn't flip, Paul was still definitely going away on the Commission Case. Why Gambino guys thought every other don would do his time, but Paul would flip confuses me. Same question on why they thought a tough guy like DeMeo was gonna flip.

Without DeMeo, was the most violent capo Eddie Lino? And if so, was he aligned with Gotti or Paul?

Other families had a peaceful handoff of power, it seems. So, if Paul avoided getting whacked....would he have handed the reigns of acting boss to Bilotti?

Eddie Lino wasn't even made until after Paul died. He was one of the Sparks shooters, and Gotti rewarded him with his button shortly after becoming boss. And up to that point, Eddie was aligned mostly with the Bonannos (through his cousin Frank).

Who ever said that the ganbinos thought big paul would flip? Demeo was never a captain. And it was said that castellano mightve been planing some sort powershare between billiotti and tommy gambino if castellano got locked up.

Paul needed to do something about Gotti, but using Tommy Bilotti was beyond dumb, he was even by mob standards not too bright.

He should have borught Frank DeCcicoo and Sammy in with him and they could have countered any bs from Gotti, and Ange Ruggerio who would have gotten whacked as well...

Tommy Gambino would likely have become boss with Jimmy Brown, Joe Gallo, or Piney Armone as underboss and consigliere. There's no way Bilotti would have been made boss.

Castellano had no reason to suspect that DeCicco was going to align with Gotti, as they were never close. Gravano at the time was only a soldier.

Big Paul made a series of mistakes, all of them potentially fatal:

--He was a recluse, holed up in his Staten Island mansion, never mingling with the troops or showing personal leadership;
--He involved himself in petty details that could have been handled by people way below him in the family;
--He made deals with other families that hurt his own people on the street;
--He carried on openly with his maid, Gloria Olarte, right under his roof, in front of his wife, a serious violation of Mob protocol;
--He failed to show up at Neil Dellacroce's funeral and wake, another serious violation of Mob protocol;
--The tapes that the government released after he was charged under RICO showed him disparaging the other Dons. They resented it, and also feared that he'd rat them out in order to buy a few more years with his beloved Gloria;
--Most important: he was greedy with his underlings, squeezing their earnings and earning their enmity. In Mobdom, always follow the money.

Gotti's murder of Castellano was equivalent to regicide and was not sanctioned by the Commission. But the reason Gotti got away with it is that no one within the Gambinos, and none of the other Dons except Chin, cared. Probably they were all glad Paul was gone.

Sure, he could have whacked Gotti first. But then another guy who resented him and Bilotti (maybe DiCicco) would have stepped in to finish him off.

Obviously if Demeo was around gotti would have done nothing because he was terrified of roy based on what gene gotti said in a wiretap. However Paul felt that demeo would rat since in 1982 he had a lot of heat on his crew. Now according to Albert demeo his father accepted his fate long before getting kille din 1983 and was never planning on ratting.

I don't think he chose either way.

I don't think anyone except Gotti would've had the balls to kill Paul.

One of his biggest mistake was letting the feds bug his house. Who would think a paranoid mob boss would fall for a amateurish rouse like the FBI pulled to get in his home.

That's what I read from more than one source. Who knows, maybe it was made up to justify the killing?
I always thought that DeMeo was a capo because his crew was so feared. Thanks for the clarification.



He can thank Angelo Ruggiero for that- IIRC, his big mouth got the Feds permission to bug the White House. Quack Quack was a dead man- just a question if Castellano or Anthony Casso would get to him first. Cancer beat them both.

ya np, Demeo was as a soldier in Nino Gaggi's crew, all the guys in the "demeo crew" were associates.

The only reason gotti had to balls was because both Sammy gravano and decicco agreed to help. If those two didnt help him gotti wouldnt have been able to pull off the hit

Having Bilotti as his #2 didn't seem to help his cause.

And you forgot the most fatal reason of them all and that was the penile implant surgery

Roy seemed to have very little supervision. Did Nino Gaggi know about his murder business and wholesale drug dealing?

Well Gaspipe was in on the Gotti hit as well.

Ironically, Gaspipe was one of the people Gotti and Da Bull consulted before the Castellano hit. Gaspipe agreed. But, Chin recruited him to carry out the attempt on Gotti that killed DiCicco instead.

See I actually think big Paul was similar to a lot of other NYC bosses in their 70s

Not many old bosses left their house , many not only screwed other girls in their bed but also screwed the wife's of other made members , lol . Also a lot of smart wise guys never went to wakes as it would violate their parole or bond . All dons talk shit about other dons or anyone for the matter in private and most mob bosses were greedy as hell . Paul was your typical long term old and powerful mob boss except he was more into legitimate business and labor racketeering / construction which was the right strategy at the time.

All of his supposed violations was just Gotti bull shit he used to try and turn other members against Paul .

Paul was in a tough spot, he knew he couldn't just whack Gotti and Ruggerio , he would have to whack Dellacroce too . If he only had to kill Gotti then he would of been dead a long time ago and Paul knew killing a legend like Dellacroce very likely could of led to a family civil war , so he hesitated and Gotti got to him first after Neal died .

Gotti was a true gangster , no doubt one of a kind but he was also one of the dumbest wise guys around and he was as bad a rule violator as there was ( way worse than Paul ) and his stupidity led to disaster for his family .

Paul strategy in construction and labor had a much longer and more positive effect for the Gambino family then anything John did as they are still making millions from construction And concrete . Wisely the current Gambino leaders have undone everything Gotti did . I actually think the family is still a powerhouse and are mis judged by many . They have a lot of guys on the street , have shunned Gottis ways and are much more low key today and have their hands in a lot of NYC construction , unions and drug jars . Also outside of Gravano, Skins and Scars , they haven't had that many rats given their size - double the size of most NYC families and probably 5 times bigger than philly or Chicago -

I also think the Luchesse are the clear #3 by a wide margin followed by the other 2 NYC families, then the Outfit and then NJ/ Philly .

I think Nino took the money and asked no questions.
He would have known where it came from though
Due to his tremendous money making and killing abilities, Roy was given a bit more freedom by Nino than some capos gave their soldiers

If Nino didn't have a problem taking DeMeo's kiddie porn money then I doubt he'd have too many qualms about taking his drug money.

Also, I don't so much think it was a questions of Big Paul's greed or lack of credibility with the soldiers and capos that was his ultimate undoing. He was done in, like the rest of the Commission bosses, by RICO.

Paul was going to jail, I'm not surprised the fallout wasn't greater, After the Chin, who really cared, nobody.

If they had waited Bilotti would have been an easy target to make disappear and never be found as nobody would have cared.

On one of the documentaries Dominick Montiglio said he doubted Gotti would of made the move on Paul if the DeMeo crew was around. He said Gotti didn't want to mess with Roy and his crew. According to Montiglio.. John and Gene Gotti were caught on tape and one of the Gotti's said the DeMeo crew kills more people before lunch then the entire Gotti crew has done over the years. This was when John and Gene were talking about the contract Castellano put out on Roy.

taking the boss's job in the first place

he should've let dellacroce have the job and be underboss or consigliere

Neil was old school, and having him as boss would've kept the family stable for a few more decades.

Going on the assumption that Gotti might have been Neil's underboss and next in line...it would have been a wash.

If Neil was the don, Gotti may have succeeded him after his death in December 1986. In real life, Gotti took over the family after Paul's whacking in December 1986.

There's a different viewpoint from Philip Carlo's biography of Anthony Casso. Casso claims to have been against Paul's murder from the beginning. I find Casso's stories to be exaggerated and he's a self promoter, so who knows which version is more accurate?

According to the biography, Frank DeCicco and Gaspipe were from the same neighborhood and had known each other all their lives. Frank met with Gaspipe in Brooklyn at the 19th Hole (Casso's bar), in December 1985, and had a walk talk around Dyker Park. DeCicco told Gaspipe about Gotti's planned hit on Paul. Gaspipe was appalled as it was against the commission rules and he tried his best to change DeCicco's mind.

Gaspipe warned him and said, "The Chin and Vic won't sit down for this. We're gonna have to come after John...not only John, but everyone involved in this, including you.......I love you like a brother, but if you tie your wagon to this, you'll be dead within a year."

As predicted, DeCicco had a contract put on his head. And 4 months after Castellano was whacked, DeCicco was killed in the bombing....which was planned by Casso.

When Casso was interviewed about the Castellano hit, he said, "What John Gotti did, was the beginning of the end of our thing."

Keep in mind guys that the Gambino Family was divided into two factions at the time. And it seems like the two factions operated seperatly without the faction leaders interfering. Dellacroce had basically a free hand on running his faction. One example is when Dellacroce demoted Mike Caiazza, a captain in his faction, to the rank of a soldier without Castellano opposing. Gotti´s problem started with the death of Dellacroce. Up til then, Castellano could not demote Gotti because he belonged to Dellacroce´s faction. Normally, by LCN standards, a boss can make or break anybody within his Family. But this unusual set up between Castellano and Dellacroce, prevented Castellano to move on Gotti, at least while Dellacroce was still alive.

To a point.

Dellacroce COULD NOT have saved Gotti upon release of the Ruggerio tapes though.

Dellacoce ran his side to a point only. Paul was the boss and a disregard of the rules to such an end was well beyond Dellacroce's influence to save him.

Does anyone know the percentage that Carlo was receiving compared to the percentage that Paul demanded?

Is there a ballpark range accepted by the underlings in the different families, regarding the percentage to be kicked up.... or does each don decide?

For example, when Anthony Accetturo (NJ faction) got into a war with Vic Amuso, it was over the percentage. Tony Ducks only took a couple of percentage points from NJ's earnings. Amuso raised that to 50%, and the Jersey faction revolted. That's a huge swing in percentage to be kicked upstairs.

Good post HK. What was the genesis of the 2 factions? How did this come about and how were guys assigned or grouped into these factions?

I have read the 2 factions have been broadly described as (1) the blue collar / street faction (Dellacroce / Gotti) responsible for book making, loan sharking, extortion, drug dealing and murder; and (2) the white collar faction (Paul / Billotti / Jimmy Brown Faila etc) running wall street scams, controlling unions, bid rigging construction and more sophisticated crimes.

I think Dominick Montiglio talks about this some in the Capeci book, but I never understood the dynamics, other than Dellacroce was a stabilizing force and was ok sharing power with Paul.

These factions are confusing because it seems like there were guys in each faction that crossed over into the other faction. For example, Roy DeMeo was in the "white collar / Paul faction" but his crew was doing more drug dealing, auto theft and blue collar stuff.

Yeah. Badmouthing the boss certainly warrants some kind of punishment. Catellano was the boss and no matter what faction a violator belonged to, downgrading, disrespecting and humiliating the boss is always a big no-no. My point is though that under normal circumstances, if a Mafia Family is in harmony and not divided the way it was under Castellano and Dellacroce, Angelo Ruggiero would have been gone way before Castellano was hit.

I think first of all, forget about the "Blue collar faction v the White collar faction". The Gambinos were not divided that way. I have no idea why the split was categorized in this way in the first place because both the factions had members involved with both blue collar crimes and white collar crimes.

The Gambino spilt probably began after the Anastasia murder back in 1957. Some of the captains (Tommy Rava and John Robilotto notably) opposed the killing and thought it was unsanctioned. The Gambinos were in a disarray so the Commission was obliged to step in. They made Carlo Gambino the provisional boss provided he could keep the peace. There was probably a lot of negotiations between Gambino and the Rava/Robilotto faction and in order to keep the peace, Gambino gave the Rava/Robilotto faction a free rein.

Rava was killed not that long afterwards, but we don´t know why. His body has never been found. Robilotto was also killed close to a year after Rava. According to Magaddino wire tap transcripts, Robilotto was killed by his own men, his own faction. The killings left Dellacroce in charge of the "rebel faction". Later in the 1970s, when the Gambino Family made new captains, some Dellacroce undelings like Carmine Fatico and Andy Ruggiano was upped. Their crews, together with Mike Caiazza´s, summed up the "Dellacroce faction", or as Montiglio put it, the "Manhattan faction".

his biggest mistake was accepting the postition, when he was already a wealthy whitecollar businesssman and not a gangster, was made out of his loyalty and closenesss to carlo ..... carlo should of gave to Dellacrose hands down... he wanted a family member to take the spot though.

Good stuff Hairy..thanks.

Paul had 2 large scale dope dealers with him, Patsy Conte and John Gambino. Probably even more then that. I don't think being a heroin dealer is considered to be a white collar crime. Funny Paul never enforced the rules when it came to those 2 guys. No way Castellano could of claimed he didn't know what they were doing. He would of been one of the only people alive that didn't and you know he was getting some thick envelopes from his 2 favorite dope dealers.

And Roy DeMeo was heavily into drugs.

With Paul rumored to be greedy, I wonder what percentage Roy kept after kicking up to Gaggi and Paul?

The 'rule' was dont get caught.

A blind eye was turned, but there were consequences if caught.
Paul would've known, but they were never caught.

Devils in the details.

I understand what your saying Sonny...but I'm pretty sure that in 1980 Gambino was charged in Italy for heroin trafficking. For some reason the US Government refused to extradite him to italy...maybe because he was an American citizen but i'm not sure that was the reason. In absentia Gambino was found guilty and sentenced to 6 years.

When Gambino was released from prison in 2005 or 06 the italians again asked for him to be extradited to serve the time he was sentenced to in italy for that 1980(?) conviction but Gambino fought the extradition in court and won because the courts here ruled he already served time here for the same charges that covered his drug dealing from the 1970's until he was arrested in either the late 1980's or early 90's.

I guess Paul could of said either that he never knew about the case in italy or it was a kangaroo court.

But i just don't see anyway Paul could of said he never knew Gambino was a large scale international heroin dealer with a straight face.

Wasn't Paul already the acting boss while Carlo was getting on in years?

Carlo Gambino was never an American citizen. He came here illegally and successfully fought off attempts to deport him right up to the day he died. Supposedly ,a highly placed Government official received $25,000 a year for life in exchange for helping stay various deportation orders.

Taking the big seat was his biggest mistake he should have made Neil the street boss to keep the peace within the family.But he let the Gotti stuff get out of hand he should have Kill John immediately after Neil died.

Lou i was talking about Giovanni "John" Gambino.

I'm not positive but i think Carlo Gambino was supposed to be deported right up to the day he died. But his heart would always act up and with his army of lawyers got delay after delay. But the courts never ruled that Carlo couldn't be deported.

In the case of John Gambino they ruled he couldn't be sent back to italy to serve the sentence because he did the time here. He pled guilty to being a heroin dealer here and it covered him from the 1970's up to when he pled guilty in 1993 or 94. So the courts ruled that the deal covered the time period that Gambino had an italian conviction for.

Of course his brother Rosario wasn't as fortunate. He was deported right after he finished his sentence here and then went directly to an italian prison to serve his sentence for a 1980's conviction in italy. But Rosario wasn't an american citizen so he was deported not extradited.

I think the key thing about the split is that it prevented castellano from making a move on dellacroce's man gotti until he had proof in the form of ruggerio's wiretap tapes.
If it weren't for the split with dellacroce commanding, basically, his own family then castellano probably would have had gotti's people hit a lot sooner and with a lot less proof. The presence of dellacroce made the situation a lot more political. That's why castellano kept asking for the tapes and dellacroce would then tell gotti that he can't keep stalling him and it's going to be bad when he does get them

DeMeo got away with a lot, nino never really had any control over him. It took half a year and a dead vaccuum salesman before nino finally got roy to kill his man chris for killing those cubans.

As far as gotti is concerned, I don't think killing roy mattered much because while he had the name, the gambino's still had the gemini twins running that crew and they were just as dangerous as roy was.

Why has everyone (LE, historians) accepted that Dellacroce was a major roadblock to Castellano ordering the murders of Gotti and part of his crew?

Dellacroce was always portrayed as old school, someone who respected the chain of command. And he understood that following orders from superiors was integral to the continued success of LCN.

With that in mind....couldn't Paul have ordered Gotti's murder and Neil would have accepted it? I figure Neil would have done the exact same thing, if another crew made the same mistakes as in the Gotti crew. Paul could have even given the contract to Neil....after all, DeMeo was given the job to whack Rosenberg.

You make some really good points, although nobody on this forum will ever know what went through Castellano's mind, as I am going to play devil's advocate:

1. Reclusive...Many bosses didn't like to go out in public or be seen with other wiseguys, as Big Paul "only" felt completely safe at home.

2. Petty Details- Paul Castellano as boss was dealing with a family full of criminals who would steal, rob or sell drugs at the drop of a hat, so micromanaging your "company" is the style of many mafia bosses and/or CEO's of big companies, which is what Paul Castellano thought of himself.

3. Deals with other families- Many bosses dealt with other families, it's called maximizing your criminal portfolio. If it meant more money in Paul's pocket, why not "merge or acquire" other business interests. Do you think the CEO of companies such as Microsoft, Google, AT&T, IBM and Intel never merged or had relationships with their competitiors? I know for a fact that IBM and AT&T have layed off tens of thousands of employees which hurt them financially, it happens.

4. Mob Protocol? Where in the rule books does it say you can't fuck your Columbian maid? He never fucked her in front of his wife, he "flirted" with her. His wife knew what he was up to and she chose to stay and benefit from his financial position.

5. Neil's Wake- No violation "at all" of mob protocol. Is there an unwritten rule that a boss has to show up at a wake? Paul was under indictment for RICO charges in the commission case, so being at the wake of his underboss in front of every FBI camera would have been a disaster for the upcoming court case. No matter how it looked to the underlings, the boss is the boss is the boss.

6. The Tapes- Every other boss in the commission case had things to say about other bosses, no doubt. Especially when these guys were on trial for their life. Remember, these guys are criminals, that's all they know is how to backstab others to line their own pockets.

7. Every boss is greedy, they didn't make it to the top without being greedy and ambitious.

At the end of the day, Gotti was a low life punk who ascended to the top (which I give him credit for), but he was also the downfall to American LCN...so in the end, Paul was much better for the longevity of the American Mafia than Gotti.

JCB, I agree with many of your points. The rationalization given for Paul's murder seems to be widely accepted. However, bosses have protection, which is supposed to ensure self preservation.

I never considered having a goomah on the side was only permissible under certain conditions. Maids weren't off limits, as far as I know. The penile stuff was embarrassing for Paul when made public, but it was nothing that could get a boss whacked.

What were these deals with other families that angered the Gambino soldiers so much? How badly did it hurt them? And I agree that families shared in major deals- gasoline tax, windows, etc...

As far as the wake....virtually no mobsters went to Albert Anastasia's funeral. Nobody was expecting Carlo to get clipped for skipping it.

So Paul had capos meet him at one location. Wasn't that a Gambino tradition? Carlo had people meet up with him at his home, just like Castellano- probably where Paul learned it from. Did people complain about going to Carlo's home, also? And Gotti had underlings meet him at his social club.

Tony Ducks wasn't whacked when the FBI bugged his Jaguar. Why would Castellano get blamed for agents bugging the White House, especially when it was Ruggiero's fault?

I believe that the main reason for discontent was the increased tribute. But I don't know what the increase was and if it was out of line compared to other dons. Ultimately, it was Quack Quack's tapes that brought the murder of Paul.

Well stated LittleMan...I will go out on a limb and say that John Gotti was a charming, charismatic personality and he had some of the "greatest" leadership qualities that a man could possess. If he were running a fortune 500 company, he would have probably been a great business leader and most importantly, he had the uncanny ability to get others to believe in him, his philosophy and his style. I believe that because of all of his great attributes and with Neil's passing, all the other guys were on board with him and his ideology...IMO, he definitely got the ball rolling.

Some things to point out:

It wasn't so much that Paul had a woman on the side, it was that he did it in the same home as his wife that was considered extremely disrespectful.

Paul also sided with Chin and the Genoveses over his own family on certain construction matters which was viewed with disdain.

As far as wakes are concerned... the Anastasia situation and the Dellacroce situation are two entirely different animals. Anastasia was killed from within, Dellacroce died by natural causes.

The difference between meeting at Paul or Carlo's house and meeting at the social club was that the former were private residences and the latter was a public place, and one known to be under constant surveillance at that.

The reasons Paul was killed have traditionally been given for the following reasons:

1. He was seen by many as more of a businessman instead of a gangster. He didn't earn his way into family any more than he had to earn his relationship with Gambino. He was viewed as undeserving of the title of "boss" while someone like Neil, who had infinitely more knowledge of the streets, was seen as disrespected. This may not have been enough to kill Paul alone, but...

2. Gotti's crew dealing drugs and the Ruggiero tapes became a major source of contention as John feared that their revelation would bring about the demise of himself and Ruggiero. Once Neil died, he lost his buffer and feared that Paul would either kill or demote him, with obviously neither of them being an acceptable option. Additionally, Paul was suggesting a leadership change which was unacceptable to John in addition to the other co-conspirators. He was also seen as someone who could potentially be turned, as his posh lifestyle had softened him enough that he might not be able to stand a significant jail sentence. Not attending Neil's wake was the final, unnecessary nail in Paul's coffin.

These sort of statements annoy me.

If he were running a Fortune 500 company, the fucking company would go bust.

People mistake charisma for intelligence. John was charming but to put it mildly, a fucking moron.

His staples in crime were THE most rudimentary. Gambling and loan. John was hardly into unions, pump n dump or anything remotely sophisticated.

John was the high school quarterback, popular but you wouldn't have him as your accountant, let a lone the CEO of a major company.

Has this been a myth, even when caught? How many capos/button men were whacked for being caught? I'm talking about when they were in good standing and not considered a threat to sing.

Many dons and acting dons have been well publicized as being drug men, it must have been known throughout the ranks. I'm sure you all know the following, but let me post it as a point of reference.

Gambinos: The Gotti's and Sammy the Bull rose to the top on the strength of drug dealing. Gene got sent away- obviously, he was never whacked.

Bonanno: Carmine Galante went to jail over drug trafficking. And when he came out, he was looking to take over the rackets....he didn't act as if he was going to be whacked or demoted based on his drug conviction.

Genovese: Vito ran the family from behind bars, and seemingly had no shame for being convicted for drugs.

Lucchese: Paulie Vario supposedly had a deal and die rule- as per Henry. But Tony Ducks passed him over for the top spot in favor for two known drug men- Vic and Gas.

I was speaking about his ability to lead, not his IQ or sophistication. No doubt he was a street guy, but he wasn't completely stupid either. I'm sure an education and some speech lessons could have made him a bit more polished.

Even guys, like Meyer Lansky, ran rackets with the threat of death for non compliance. Remove the violence and the threat of violence....and these mobsters would be ineffective in both the underworld and the real world.

Otherwise, some of these high school drop outs might have been excelled with high level jobs in real world companies. Take away the illegal advantages the would depend upon, and they would have run the companies into the ground due to incompetence- or because of a planned bust out.

Agree to disagree...I see what you're saying and there are always two sides of an argument, but "most" of those guys had goomah's on the side, I mean Chin even carried an entire family with children with his mistress. If Paul sided with Chin on Construction rackets, he probably saw a lot of opportunity to make money, which in all fairness, the Genovese Family controlled construction...so I look at that as a good move. As far as the wake, he was under indictment and had a court hearing scheduled for a "media frenzy" topic on organized crime, why be visible at a gangster's wake when the entire world is watching you? It was the final nail in the coffin in Gotti's eyes. Paul looked at himself as a businessman, he was a racketeer. Plus, he had many legitimate businesses in NYC and his goal was to set his family up financially, not bet 25 dimes on a football game like Gotti.

Undeserving as boss? LOL...That's the way Carlo wanted it, who is in a position to question what Carlo wanted for the future? NOBODY! Carlo made most of those guys...they didn't make him and Carlo made no secret that he wanted his family run by blood. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't his son Thomas "handed" the entire garment district rackets? What did Thomas do to deserve it? Blood is thicker than water and that was obvious when Gambino married his first cousin...but that's the way the old timers did things.

Name me one perfect boss...all bosses have made mistakes with personnel going back to the beginning of time. The Gambino Family was much better off with Castellano than with anybody with the last name Gotti. We could sit here and dissect every boss's decision across the board from Accardo, Giancana, Gambino, Castellano, Gigante, Bufalino, Bruno, DeCalvacante, Patriarca etc...You make the best decision at the time for the particular situation you are faced with...If hindsight was 20/20, everybody on this forum would have done something in their life a little differently.

I never said that they were justifiable decisions, only that they were the ones that Gotti used to justify his actions.

I agree. i think people have gotten the wrong impression of Big Paul. Sure he was a white collar mobster AND he wasnt a street guy BUT he was still a nasty son of a bitch. he would order murders in a second if someone pissed him off. remember he ordered one muredr because the guy said he looked like Frank perdue. He also ordered 10 times the amount of murders gotti ever did to be honest

Not to prepare for Gotti.

He couldn't understand the ambition Gotti carried on. Plus, he had not a loyal muscle power behind. He could've used Roy DeMeo as a muscleman against Gotti and whole his crew.

Another was keeping Dellacroce as underboss. Dellacroce might hadn't moved on him but even though, Gotti and whole the rebels against Big Paul grew stronger under Neil's wings.

Gotti was pretty scared of Big Paul. He only became more confident when Gravano and decicco decided to help him. without those 2 he would have been dead at some point

To clarify, the 'deals with other families' that made the made men unhappy was related to the Genovese but was a separate ordeal. Frank Piccolo was killed on Castellano's orders to keep Chin happy. Sold down the river by Paul. Piccolo was a caporegime. Obviously, the family felt betrayed and horrified.

Two things decided Paul's fate. 1. He was greedy. 2. He hated John Gotti.

Agreed to a point...WE, the public, will NEVER know why things happened the way they did. I don't believe that any of us on this forum are in a position to "critique" why Castellano made the decisions he made. One thing I know that is a certainty: You live by the gun, you die by the gun. He was 76 when he got whacked, so I'd say that he had a "pretty damn good" career for a criminal. 50 plus years in the rackets, not many could say that. He accumulated wealth and did what a lot of bosses do not do...he invested his blood money into legitimate corporations and businesses and set his children, grandchildren and the next 3 generations up so they never had to live by the streets.

Of course he was greedy, like every Mafiosi. Guys don't make it to the top without ambition and greed. As far as hating John Gotti...Castellano was one of many. His biggest mistake? Not whacking him once his brother and Quack Quack got indicted. Due to his upcoming "Commission Case," he didn't want anymore headlines or headaches since he was already facing 100 years in the can. Gotti was about as respected by other bosses and families as Bobby Kennedy was when he was made AG by his brother. Most "street guys" don't make good bosses...It's the guys who see the biggest picture and focus on White Collar rackets as well as staying true to the rules. I will say that I believe Castellano was an ego-maniac, with his Staten Island Home and lavish lifestyle.

I have to agree with turnbull. Had he not been so greedy and spent more face time with the troops maybe they wouldn't have taken him out.

Gotti IMO was taking out whoever he needed to in order to become boss. Gotti knew it was kill or be killed and he struck first. Keep in mind that Castellano was Sicilian and HATED the fact that Gotti was Neapolitan. As a first generation Italian, my famil is Calabrese and it amazes me how men in certain regions of Italy look at other men from a different region. Neapolitans are known for being "serpents" and the Sicilians never trusted the Neapolitans. Guys from Castellano and Gambino's generation took that stuff very seriously.

And so does my father you can't just a neapolitan.

Gotti was lucky IMO. I think Big paul would have killed him but the mafia commission case came out and paul didnt wnat to do anything to create more heat on himself. Also the main reason that the Castellano hit was a success was because Gravano and Decicco decided to help. Without those two i ahve a feeling gotti would have been dead long ago or at least broken down into a soldier/on the shelf

If gotti was such a moron.....why didn't anybody perform a coupe after the big paul hit? I know about the gaspipe attempt on his life that killed decicco....but was having the bull behind him really what kept everybody in line? or was he just a lightning rod?

I guess that could be phrased better.

He was well liked and respected. Feared, even. I think most people couldn't predict how big his ego was about to become and so they were loyal to him.

Jimmy Brown and Danny Marino tried to attempt a coup. They were still plotting all the way up until Gotti was jailed.

so i'm saying, might he scared of Castellano, but Castellano couldn't see the ambition of Gotti, and he kept Neil as the underboss, i mean yeah, Neil was O.K. on Castellano's side, but bugs like Gotti, Gravano, Ruggiero all got powerful under Neil. If I was the Big Paul, i would set a meeting with Neil and Gotti and whack'em right there. You shouldn't underestimate guys like Gotti.

was Bob Kennedy a poor attorney general? I had always understood that he played a pretty big role is dismantling some of the mafia hierarchy in NYC and elsewhere.

I didn't say he was a poor AG...JFK got the presidential nomination because of one man...Sam Giancana. Frank Sinatra went to Giancana and asked for the endorsement of Kennedy, which Giancana was reluctant, but it was presented by Joe Kennedy that if the Teamsters endorsed JFK, "mob business" would be left alone. Once JFK got voted in and Bobby was appointed AG, his first order of business was to go after Giancana and many others.

And NO, Bobby was not viewed by his peers in a good way...they looked at him as a spoiled little rich kid who was given the job because of his brother. The Kennedy's, in most circles, were despised.

We really need to clarify the myth of JFK and Giancana:

The myth starts with Joseph P. Kennedy, JFK’s father, who supposedly had ties with organized crime going back to Prohibition, when he was a major (illegal) importer and distributor of Scotch whiskey. He contacted Sam Giancana, or worked through Frank Sinatra, a friend of both Giancana’s and JFK’s, to solicit Mob money and union support to help his son win the West Virginia presidential primary, and to carry Illinois in the general election. In return, Kennedy promised that his son’s administration would keep hands off organized crime. Giancana agreed to help—and the Kennedy Administration, led by Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, declared war on the Mob. Another wrinkle: Giancana and JFK shared a mistress: Judith Campbell Exner, whom Sinatra had introduced to JKF before he became president. Later, Exner, terminally ill with cancer, alleged that JFK had impregnated her, and Giancana arranged for her to have an abortion. Therefore, Giancana ordered the assassination as revenge on the president.
This myth is full of holes:

Joe Kennedy was not a rumrunner during Prohibition, nor was he Mob-connected. His father, Patrick J. Kennedy, operated saloons before Prohibition. At the beginning of the Franklin D. Roosevelt administration in 1933, Joe Kennedy and Jimmy Roosevelt, FDR’s son, formed Somerset Importers and acted as exclusive agents for several brands of Scotch whiskey and gin. They started business after Prohibition was repealed.

Sam Giancana had no motivation to help John F. Kennedy. In 1959, Giancana was humiliated by Robert Kennedy when he was subpoenaed to appear before a Senate subcommittee investigating labor racketeering. JFK was a ranking Democratic member and Robert Kennedy was chief counsel. After taking the Fifth Amendment in response to several of RFK’s questions, Giancana smiled and laughed. “I thought only little girls giggle, Mr. Giancana,” RFK taunted--not exactly the kind of remark aimed at getting Giancana's support for his brother's presidential campaign. That same hearing marked the beginning of a long-running feud between the Kennedy brothers and Jimmy Hoffa, whom JFK excoriated for “hiding behind the Fifth Amendment.” The Teamsters, one of the Chicago Outfit’s major allies and sources of income, endorsed Richard Nixon in the 1960 election. And, JFK didn’t need either Giancana’s or the Teamsters’ help in carrying Illinois because he’d been promised the state’s electoral votes by one of his strongest allies: Richard Daley, Chicago’s all-powerful mayor, who delivered Chicago’s vote late in the evening, allowing JFK to squeak by Nixon with a margin of fewer than 9,000 votes.

As for Exner: Despite her late-life claims, there is no hard evidence that JFK had any relationship with Giancana through her, or that he even knew that he was sharing her with Giancana—until J. Edgar Hoover warned him that the FBI was aware that he had spoken to her by phone 70 times in two weeks, and that one of the calls had been made from Giancana’s home. Kennedy immediately dropped her.

Among my friends, this has always been a debated topic. Half are convinced Joe had nothing to do with bootlegging. The other half believes he was definitely involved with bootlegging, plus he was known to many gangsters.

Agreed to disagree

If you have Richard Daley on your side do you really need someone like Sam Giancana? Only one of them had REAL power. And most people who believe this myth ignore the "giggle" line.

Besides Kennedy would've won even without Daley and his votes!

As for Castellano I think he accomplished what he wanted during his run. The Gambinos became a business enterprise and, more importantly, his family (blood family) became businessmen. Gotti ruined the Gambinos afterwards but not the Castellanos.

Correct! JFK won by over 80 electoral votes, while Illinois was only worth 27 at the time.

Very interesting HAIRY !Gambino's rise to power is also ... GAMBINO'S treachery is unbridaled . did he make an agreement with Rava/ Johnny Robert's , then secretly wack em both ? another thing report's say Eboli told family member's that the Bonnano murder plot was false, was that why CARLO had him killed ?big argument over here , WAS THE LUCCHESE FAMILY the # 2 power from 58- 67 ?

Yeah, Demeo seemed he wasn't worried if his crew weren't Italians.

There seems to be two different mindsets with these people.

Some probably wouldn't give a shit if the books were opened up to accept Irish and Jews; like Roy De Meo and Lucky Luciano.

And then there are those with a tribal attitude, like Vito Genovese, who whined about Luciano collaborating with all those Jews back in the olden days.

Luciano and DeMeo worked with Jews. Where did you read that they wanted them as made members? Which mafia leaders have ever called for making people with no Italian heritage into the Mafia? Even guys like Veasey and Porter had Italian mothers.

Letting the genovese family whack frank piccolo the captain in Connecticut for the gambino's was a major fuck up

Agree with Dom... thinking about killing someone like Gotti as a perceived threat makes sense; killing DeMeo as a threat to you going to jail make sense; killing a loyal captain who was neither like Gotti nor as pronounced as DeMeo didn't make sense. I can't imagine that the family understood that move.

Yeah jimmy , apparently he was encroaching on genovese family turf so castellano agreed to the genovese demands to have him whacked , all the guys who were sitting on the fence in the gotti castellano dispute suddenly swung over to gottis side ,

Gotti was in teh right place at the time to make a move on Paul. He was on trial, and his loyal guys like Decicco and Gravano didnt like they way he was acting with The Piccolo murder and the maid affair. I dotn think Decicco or Gravano particularly liked Gottin. in fact they made a pact that they would ahve killed Gotti in a year if he didnt cut out the flamboyant bullshit. I guess Decicco's death saved Gotti's life

That was sammy's story after he flipped. He seemed happy making all that money under gotti

Yeah, it's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback after you've already cut your deal with the government.

That's the point I was trying to make with someone the other day. They were hating on D'Arco for his bravado in the Capeci book. But that's all of these guys who cut deals. They all make themselves out to be the balls and the brains of the operation when they sit down to write their books. The truth just wouldn't go over very well .

Buying that penile implant.

If you think about it, none of this happens if Ruggiero doesnt get caught dealing heroin.

Agreed the Bergin crew was pretty dumb. First you had angelo who couldnt shut up and then because of john gotti's gambling he pissed away teh crew's profits and they ahd ro resort to drug dealing

True, but that always seems to be the way. It's the domino effect. Money runs uphill, shit rolls downhill.