missing the point about the Outfit

I have commented on Fosco’s American News Post and personally have relatives who were affiliated with the Outfit (one who was murdered). The information about Chicago on this website is so totally off-base that it is offensive, intellectually. It is clear to me that the people providing information here get it from books or possibly some of the more outlandish ANP comments. Much of this site’s content is obviously people’s own armchair assessments and wishful thinking, a few true crime readers espousing romantic theories from behind the veneer of a message board. I have no admiration for the Outfit these days, and it is still frankly embarrassing to read some of the chatter on these forums. Though I got over my Outfit-ogling years ago, I feel strangely compelled to clear the air on some of this stuff.

The “number of made guys” is totally irrelevant. Johnny DiFronzo and his dog could be the Chicago Outfit if the numbers dwindled enough. Thirty is a decent, possibly even charitable, estimate. For those of you who are Outfit cheerleaders, this “low enrollment” is not a bad thing because over the past century numerous bosses established the corrupt political infrastructure and deep ties to law enforcement that will sustain the Outfit for decades to come. The Outfit does not need large numbers to do what it does. Having a large roster these days is not feasible and would probably be counterproductive.  In all likelihood, the 2013 Outfit would be just as lean and low-profile with Accardo at the helm. There are also plenty of wanna-bes and “star struck” posers (especially municipal workers, restaurateurs, and business owners), as well as sons, grandsons, and nephews of Outfit guys who will do anything to assist the Outfit just to feel attached to it. Since made guys share in the profits of the Outfit then it is obviously in its best interest of to keep their ranks “lite” especially when there is no shortage of volunteers willing to “work” for free. There is more loyalty to and admiration for the Outfit in certain pockets of Italian-American Chicago than there is in Brazil for particular soccer teams, and that is not an exaggeration.

Any source claiming that the Outfit formally initiates non-Italians is a nonsense source. Chicago is as much a traditional organization as any other LCN family in the U.S. In the first part of the 20th century, many Italian-Americans in Chicago adopted Anglo/Irish surnames to camouflage their ethnicity because Irish-Americans ran, and still run, the City of Chicago and State of Illinois to this day. (There was a news story last year about Michelle Obama being unnerved by the Irish-Catholic triumvirate running Chicago and Illinois—Daley, Madigan, and Hynes.) Obvious examples are: Jack McGurn, Joey O’Brien, Joe Arnold, Pat Marcy, etc., were all Italians whose adopted Irish names belied their true identities. The present day Banks family of the 36th Ward is Italian (Panebianco). This list goes on and on, and I am just restating the obvious.

Also, Chicago being the most segregated metropolis in the country, the Outfit has always worked with criminals of other cultural backgrounds (often Greek), and though these folks are not made, their relationship with the Outfit is often worthwhile. These “associates” can make more money than some of the more dimwitted or shelved made guys. Gus Alex (Greek) probably made more money than 99% of made guys. Present day money maker Casey Szaflarski has probably earned more under the tutelage of Outfit than most active made guys in the past ten years. Nick Calabrese, who was made, earned more on the legit as a union guy at McCormick Place than he ever did in the Outfit. Schweihs was a wealthy extortionist because he was a killer; he was never made. Porky (Polish) is just a killer, not made, certainly not a boss of any kind, and not wealthy at all. The only instance I can think of in which someone who did not have an Italian surname could have been “made” might have been Harry Aleman (Alemán), a killer who was half Latino but also had the benefit of being Joe Ferriola’s nephew. And that is only if Harry was made. I am not convinced that he ever was. (As a side note: Being one himself, Accardo had a latent suspicion of Italians, often preferring the company and trusting the business acumen of non-Italians.)

Family Secrets was certainly a tidal wave, but, aside from that, the Outfit’s low numbers have resulted in comparatively few major RICO cases against it. The made guys are very well insulated by all the layers of runners, lackeys, and knock-around-guys. There is a lot of loyalty, too, as many Outfit guys are related or “interrelated” in some way. I am pretty sure there will be another RICO major case before the end of the decade, but that will not be the end of the Outfit. The City of Chicago is such a travesty of what an American city should be (the same goes for the entire State) that it simply could not function without the existence of the Italian mob and concomitant Irish-American pollies who are really just are popularly elected gangsters themselves. The Outfit is part of Illinois political and economic infrastructure, and after Dion O’Banion was killed, it was almost as if all the Irish gangsters put on suits and became entrenched in politics.

For anyone pulling for the Chicago Outfit—don’t worry! It is not going anywhere! For the Outfit to die, the government would literally have to burn Illinois, Wisconsin, Arizona, Las Vegas, parts of Florida and Central America completely to the ground (possibly detonate a nuclear bomb in Melrose Park just to be absolutely sure), repopulate it with residents of other states, and start from scratch.



 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wisconsin, Arizona, Florida, Las Vegas and.... CENTRAL AMERICA?

Endemic corruption?


The outfit a political, let alone NATIONAL, LET ALONE INTERNATIONAL syndicate?

Please.

YAWN.




PS: Any evidence? Didn't think so.

You're missing the central point of the post. The Outfit is not big; it does not need to be. Mooney established gambling outposts in Central America that exist to this day. The Bastones (Cicero) supervised them after he was killed, and they went to Elmwood Park after Aiuppa and Carlisi died. This is not anything new. Read about Michael Posner in Aruba. You might be able to find something about Joey DeVita on the internet--an Outfit guy who retired to Arizona. He oversees the Outfit's spotty gambling interests outside of Illinois. I'm not saying that there's this vast operation, but it does exist. The Outfit established an infrastructure of the years.

I wish some made guy from the Outfit would just write a book to clear up all this mess!

How's stone park these days?

Stonepark:

Those with direct knowledge of the outfit (posters Chicago, Huron) and those who substantiate arguments with evidence (posters Ivy) all have indicated that the outfit is a shadow of itself with little to no political connections let alone a national or international reach/influence/operations.

Just because some guy from Elmwood park retires and buys a ranch in Montana doesn't mean the outfit is in Montana. Nor does it mean if I call up poster Chicago and give him my action is the outfit in NY.

And unless you can show evidence otherwise the preponderance of information is as I've stated.

Apologies to posters Chicago, Huron and Ivy if I've incorrectly spoken for you.

It's widely known that DeVita is in Arizona as well as the casinos in central America. Vegas not much anymore but they're still there. Florida no idea. Not as far fetched as you think it is Sonny.

I agree with some of the original post but the numbers do matter. Without a core group of made guys, there really is no Outfit anymore. Just family members, friends, and associates scattered here and there, many having gone completely legit. It's important not to extend that Outfit label too far, where it doesn't really apply. Also, while I agree the smaller size of today's Outfit is, in part, intentional, one can't ignore attrition being a factor as well.

Most of the Outfit's presence does not extend beyond Chicago and it's suburbs within Cook County. Very little activity out west anymore. The Crazy Horse Too bust was the last big case out there and that was a decade ago now. And when was the last time anyone read anything about any Outfit operations in Florida? Maybe some old guys living out their twilight years there but not much else, I'd expect. Posner does have the Excelsior in Aruba but I'm not aware of any other interests in Central America or anywhere else. Back in 2005, it was reported some investors of a tribal casino boat (Lac du Flambeau) off the coast of Mexico did have Outfit connections but that project never panned out.

You'll also notice that the non-Italian names that always get listed when it comes to the Outfit's working with other ethnic groups are usually long dead.

Finally, to equate the Outfit with the "government" of Chicago is also a highly outdated notion. Chicago couldn't function without the Italian mob or corrupt Irish politicians? C'mon. As I've said many times, all or even most of the corruption in both the city and state has nothing to do with the mob.

Still a lotta corruption in the suburbs ivy..
Will county, dupage county, Rockford

This is your typical response. Still a lotta this....still a lotta that. Well, the devil is in the details, as they say. There is still a lot of corruption in Chicago and it's suburbs, period. However, only a relatively small portion of it seems to be connected to the Outfit.

Is there mob corruption in the actual city of Chicago today? Barely any. But you're completely wrong about some of the suburbs.

It's easy for you to say that. Actually coming up with some good examples is another matter. When one actually keeps track of stuff, as I do, there are still examples of the Outfit taking advantage of the general corruption in Chicago and it's suburbs. But it's not a case of the corruption revolving around the Outfit. Some of those would include:

* In the 2000 Centraccio case, included in the allegations were local police being paid off to protect gambling operations.

* The 2001 case involving the town of Cicero insurance scandal.

* In 2001, the the Menominee Indian tribe pulled out of a Kenosha casino deal because one of it's major investors was Morgan Murphy Jr., a former Chicago congressman who had ties to an Chicago LCN-connected labor official.

* The November 2004 "Hired Truck" scandal, where several companies, including mob-connected ones, were involved in bid-rigging for city contracts.

* From 2005 to 2011, there were several news stories about DiFronzo's companies getting contracts in various local townships.

* In 2005, two parole officials indicted on charges of voting to release Chicago LCN associate Harry Aleman in exchange for one of the official's sons receiving help to secure employment as a singer in Las Vegas. (This was in Springfield)

And there's always rumors, allegations, and hearsay about guys like James DeLeo. Speculation about people at the Thomas Benigno fundraiser. Some Outfit-connected people are able to get city jobs. Some current or former cops (Scalise, Natale, Handhart, Scalvo, Vitalo, Formato) involved in Outfit cases.

International? The genovese are intergalactal.... The chin ran the numbers game with irish associate and nasa racketeer buzz aldrin on the moon


just to relate to u guys how dumb the dumb reporter based comments are.... In the late nineties, there was a guy close to the westside hoboken crew. Call him sam. its not his name but it doesnt matter. To call him a degenerate gambler would be a gross understatement. He was in AC by friday evenings and would leave by monday mornings. Like clockwork, always lost money. He was a boom operator and a agent for bobby manna. He got the best comps, paid rooms, a meal or two. This casino manager whos a cousin of tony rotolo in bobbys crew eventually gets sam a job working junkets/referal/customer service type work. In the mid 2000s he started working in the offshore industry. He became a managing partner in 2008-09ish. He basically rewrote the book on online bonuses. He lives in a mansion in costa rica that makes malibu look like morningside hts. Anyone who has ever bet online knows this book, it is one of the top books that service americans. This guy sam by all rules is still a genovese associate. Is this book genovese connected book? Sure. Is it genovese CONTROLLED? No. I doubt sammy has kicked anything up in ten years, he probly still owes them money. Does this make the genovese an international organization? NO. This book takes action all over.... Canada, UK, China (huge market).... Of course some reporter gets a hold of the whole story and the genovese family is expanding to china.... Its reporter bullshit. Ive never read past wikipedia page on the chicago outfit and i can tell u now these big connections dont ammount to shit.

And nicky, whats with u argueing how possible it is like your rooting for the entire family to come back and be strong? Rooting for a guy or two i can understand. Im rooting for big frank in brooklyn. Im rooting that they dont legalize gambling in nj. But u dont see me hoping the colombo family can regain their ranks.

Would this be Carmen Cicalese?

No its not. And for christ sakes i go out of my way NOT to say this guys name or his business and you think if u guess right ill just spill the fucking beans?

I figured if it was, you would simply verify. Not exactly any harm in that. I don't think the FBI is going to fly down to Costa Rica, kick down the guy's door, and arrest/extradite him because you mentioned his name on an internet forum. But that's me.

Well look at this internet gossip bullshit that goes around here about outfit in aruba. Exactly what i was saying. then u would go around posting it on mob forums and shit. Next thing u know xxxxx is a genoves book.... Same goes for chicago corruption. An article comes out and a few apologetic posters turn an allegation into fact.

You guys are killing it tonight...great thread..some truth in what Stone Park said, but the Outfit does NOT have that kind of reach anymore. Are they on the verge of extinction? NO... Are they the colossus they were? No..

As they say "the truth lies somewhere in between"

Great thread hope one day the truth come out

+1000 Skinny

You don't know what you're talking about open your Eyes Nicky what corruption post one related case within the past 5 fuck it 10 years verifying what you say. Why does it mean so much to you that there's a Outfit you make yourself look like a joker. Do you writes letters to gangsters In prison? I could see you doing that. You should send Little Jimmy a pic of your little jimmy maybe he'll send you one back you can kiss every night before bed. LOL I KID I KID.

Cicero with the Betty Maltese situation. Why the fuck would I write letters to prisoners? Wow you didn't say your gay saying "dickride" in that whole responce! Congrats

Cicero what, that was 01. Stop dickriding.

Why are there so many threads with arguments over how large of an organization Chicago has? I see many New York vs Chicago type fights on here too, it gets a bit funny. Sorry, but I am starting to laugh as I read through some of them. I almost want to start a thread insisting Los Angeles has bigger and more active organization than both

Toronto N'Drangheta (Not Vito) vs Outfit?

Place your bets gents.

(I can't work out if I'm serious either)

The Cicero crew is alive & well, don't be ridiculous.

Yeah Cicero is alive but the widespread corruption that once was there is gone.

dwfdef

hahahahahahahahah so true...they are talking about it here to and weed...im begging actually

For all the bombast of the original post, I don't think, where it's on target, it differentiates at all from what most of the level headed posters in this forum have been saying for a long time.

And it is simply wrong about a few things. The Irish baiting is comical. Our Mayor's Jewish if you didn't notice, to start. Corruption is probably not worse than in other big cities these days.

Sg Waue, lol as long as Cicero exists the corruption there will be pandemic. The roots run deep. Is all of it Outfit influenced? NO...Is most of it??? YES..The day will come in the near future when the G indicts and convicts its current "reformer" town President - one Larry Dominick. He has been an Outfit "dickrider' ( since you patented that term lol ) ever since he was serving Emmo Schullo's coffee in the Police Department there...:) As to what Stone Park said about the Outfit having a fanbase in Chicago's Italian-American community akin to the support the National Soccer team gets in Brazil, he is POINT ON ABOUT THAT...I never understood it either, but it's true as evidenced on these boards time and again. I grew up in that neighborhood and know it well and still have some family there. Nothing more amusing to me than to hear the old-timers talk about how the "G shoulda left the Outfit alone in this neighborhood !!! We wouldn't have the drugs and the whores and the gangs and the problems we have today!!!!' LMAO..I grew up in the 80's when The Outfit-especially in Cicero was at its peak...#1. Rocky Infelise-who took over the Cicero Crew in 89 when Ferriola died and later was the #2 in the whole Outfit- WAS A CONVICTED HEROIN DEALER !!!!! #2. The only difference between now and then in terms of prostitution is that back then there were at least FOUR DIFFERENT OUTFIT STRIP JOINTS/WHOREHOUSES THAT OPERATED OPENLY IN CICERO..:) I dont get the logic that its ok in some club but that streetwalkers are no good because they may have 1 or 2 less teeth that the whores in those joints lol....#3. In the 80's the gang problem in Cicero was WORSE than in is today !!!! The Hispanic gangs were muscling in then and the 2 old white gangs fought them tooth and nail. Shootings and killings were a regular thing. What did the Outfit do to prevent all of that??? NOTHING...PEOPLE CONTINUALLY AND REPEATEDLY BELIEVE THAT THE OUTFIT IS THIS ALL POWERFUL MEGALITH IT ONCE WAS AND IT IS NOT !!!!!!! It's ingrained in the heads of the old time Italians who grew up on Taylor Street, or Grand Avenue, or Bridgeport who in turn passed in on to their kids who grew up in Cicero and in Berwyn and in Melrose Park and in Elmwood Park who in turn passed it on to the next generation who grew up in Bloomingdale and Addison and Westchester..It's one hell of a myth but IT'S JUST NOT SO ANYMORE, GET OVER IT...:)

Off topic, but do you live in New York, Sonny? Why did I think you were Australian?

Excellent post, by the way .

why do you beg for chicago to be relevant....it boggles my mind

On the last forum, I posted a pic of Carl Dote with the alderman and Mayor of Des Plaines all smiling and having drinks. Ivy had no response and stopped commenting on the thread.

He's just a kid, Cheech. And a good kid at that. But it IS crazy how many people have their self esteem tied into how big and bad their local criminals are .

First of all, when I mentioned WI, AZ, Vegas, FL, and Central America, I was not claiming there are Outfit “crews” there at all, so stop inferring that. Nowhere did I state that. My point is that the Outfit is small, and, though not as powerful as it once was, it is very capable in areas it concentrates its efforts. Also, the influence of these people, who are now quasi-legit, is still completely entrenched in the State of Illinois, and I am arguing that the government would have to take a scorched earth approach to eradicating it. The Outfit is not a neighborhood-based organization anymore, and these guys spend their time all over the place. They work remotely, if you will. The government would have to cast a very wide net to wipe out the whole organization, which is why I mentioned places I know they spend a substantial amount of time. THAT was my point.

Gambling outposts in Costa Rica, etc., (Central America) established by Mooney in the 1960’s still exist today and bring in more money for the Outfit these days than Aruba. If you do not believe me, ask Michael Magnafichi that exact question before his next podcast. If what I am claiming is false, then he should have no problem discussing and dismissing it, the same way he does with other false information. What Mike will say is, “I am not comfortable talking about that.” Also, when Joe Lump skipped town when the Family Secrets indictments dropped, the government publicly stated that he was could have gone somewhere south of the border where he had gambling interests. Likewise, James Marcello discussed with his brother the prospect of hopping on an airplane to Central America immediately upon his release on the “prison tapes.” That the Outfit has “interests abroad” is not new information.

By the way, if anyone reading this denies that there is endemic corruption in the State of Illinois then it is pretty clear that you do not live in the State of Illinois. Corruption is part of the state infrastructure, and if the Outfit was somehow to magically disappear, there would be a vacuum. The corruption would remain, and that is a fact. Illinois is not a normal state, and does not know how to be a normal state. The street gangs (Gangster Disciples, Latin Kings) even have a certain amount of influence through particular alderman. Read about Chicago’s political violence problem. Chicago is an awful place.

And if anyone reading this denies that there is a powerful Irish-Catholic bloc, then you are ignorant. You are simply ignoring the obvious. I am not saying there is an Irish mob; I am saying that there are many very crooked Irish pollies and judges who wield more power in Illinois and Chicago than any other group. The fact that Rahm Emanuel is the mayor and is Jewish is meaningless. Ask yourself why he is mayor. Ask yourself how he even ended up on the ballet, which never should have happened. There is no Irish-American mob in Chicago because there does not need to be an Irish-American mob. They took City Hall and the State Capitol decades ago, and that is the way it will be until there are no more Daleys, Madigans, et al. http://voices.suntimes.com/early-and-often/sweet/michelle-obama-distressed-abou/

I think some of you guys live in the mountains in Idaho.

"Ask yourself why he is mayor."

Um, because his biggest competitor was some guy named Gerry Chico who had a snowball's chance in hell of winning and Rahm won by 70 percent of the vote.

Most Irish her are like fourth, fifth generation.

I'm Irish.

The idea that people or Irish heritage sit about conspiring as fellow Irish is ridiculous. Do you also believe in the Loch Ness Monster?

Most Irish Americans, as well as native Irish, actually get annoyed as fuck at all the corny stereotyping and sentimentality regarding being Irish.

There are only eight million people in all of f**king Ireland, how many do you think there are here? There are 300 million Americans, about 40 million claim Irish ANCESTRY but like I said it is diluted and in many instances not true at all.

Top o' the mornin' to you, now I have to go down to City Hall and conspire with my Jewish co-conspirators and a secret cabal of alderman on how to keep the Sicilians down!

You are making a lousy inference. These are not off-the-boat Irish people, which is why I am calling them Irish-Americans.

The Irish-American political community in Chicago as is insular as the Outfit. Do you seriously disagree with that? JFK was a third generation Irish American who had a strong Irish identity. You don't think the these pols have an Irish identity because they're [x] generation? I am not attacking Irish people, by the way.

You have a very naive perspective on Mayor Rahm. What is more relevant than who ran against him is who didn't run against him--and why. I can only assume you are not from Chicago because you are struggling to relate to a perspective shared by most Chicagoans.

And where did I say anything about the Irish keeping the "Sicilians" down?

I'm begging for outfit strength by saying Cicero is corrupt? That it common sense but obviously you don't know shit about Chicago.

Until you can start speaking in specifics, I am going to take it as an admission you got nothin'.

Who *didn't* run against Rahm? Probably a lot of people, knowing they would get slaughtered, as he was singlehandedly responsible when he was about 30 years old for building the biggest political war chest for Bill Clinton in the history of the country, he has a personal net worth of approximately $15 million, he is best friends with Obama (not Irish, by the way--that would be O'Bama) and he has an IQ about twice that of most career politicians.

Yes I am from Chicago I am just not from the class that sits around at bars crying in their beer talking about conspiracy theories.

Irish are like Jews; people may think they 'stick together' whereas in reality most of the time they can't stand each other.

Go take a look at the list of Alderman and tell me what percentage are Irish.

This isn't 1922.

If Daley ran again he would've won. I'm part Irish myself and Irish do stick together, where'd you get that from? Still tons of Irish neighborhoods today as well as politicians. Don't forget that Irish are the highest populated ethnicity in Chicago.

No they're not, it's German.

Name me ONE "Irish neighborhood" outside of Canaryville.

Nicky, your general world view is that of the 1930s, so suffice it to say I totally disagree.

Mrs. Obama resents the way power in Illinois is locked up generation after generation by a group of families, all white Irish Catholic statewide. Chicago is not Boston, and the City Council is diverse, obviously. I did not state anything to the contrary. Can I ask how/why you interpreted my posts as presenting an Italian vs. Irish rivalry? I am curious because I said nothing of the sort. I was simply describing how Chicago and Illinois are fundamentally corrupt--an observation no one paying any attention could possibly disagree with. A large part of it is attributable to the Chicago Outfit, as I stated, but the Irish-American aspect of it is built into the corrupt infrastructure, as well.

German ? The Daley's are Irish.
Bridgeport
Mt Greenwood
Beverly
Oak lawn
Evergreen
You've obviously never been to the south side of Chicago. Pretty much every neighborhood/town here is mostly Irish.

Irish stick together? Since when? Hes right nicky boy ur stuck in a different century. Ur all 6-7th generation irish. You know how you stick together? Your white. The only white groups that stick together are italians, and thats not exclusivley either. And only when theres a big enough population

Can u tell a irish person from a german? Bullshit. Your wishful thinking turns a white neighborhood into an irish neighborhood.

OOOOOOK Nicky, is Bridgeport an Italian or Irish neighborhood, LOL, I thought we had this discussion?

Here you go, just to show you how wildly misinformed you are, as far back as 1990 only 6.4 percent of Bridgeport residents were Irish.

http://www.uic.edu/orgs/LockZero/tables/T19.htm

Now I am going to stop posting because we have derailed a somewhat interesting thread.

My apologies.

4th generation actually. But Irish definitely stick together at least in Chicago and Boston. I agree Italians definitely stick together as well as the Polish. Those 3 I think are the only white ethnicities that still do.

And it's pretty easy to tell apart a German and an Irish from each other.

No nose how about all my other examples? Nothing to say about those right?

FUCK HER!!!!!!!! She would rather Illinois be controlled by reputable, moral political dynasties with the name of Jackson, Beavers and Stroger...Her and her chipmunk teeth

I'll give ya Beverly (? percent) and Mt. Greenwood (40 percent). The other two neighborhoods are not in the city.

Why do they have to be in the city? They're literally across the street from each other.

Right. When people talk about Chicago, organized crime, and corruption, they are typically referring to the metropolis: "Chicagoland." Cicero, Berwyn, Elmwood Park, and Melrose Park are not in the city either. Capone set up shop in Cicero.

This is getting way off topic. The point is this: People chatter about the Chicago Outfit on this site and others like it is still the 1960’s. Well, it is 2013, and the “traditional” Outfit is streamlined to the point where it bears little resemblance to its former self. As I originally said, thirty “made guys” is an accurate, if not charitable, estimate. Personally, I think talking about made guys and how many of them there are is missing the point, as per the title of this thread. What is interesting and disturbing to me is that the Outfit is even able to exist at all after Family Secrets. That should have been the end of it, but it will continue and inevitably evolve because the local, city, and state governments entail its existence. The two entities have a reciprocal relationship. That might not be very romantic, but that is the way it is.

+1 skinny and jonnynonos.

Nickyeyes: How exactly do you tell the diff between an Irish and a German?
Because its fucking beyond me.

Outfit preachers: its fine to make a claim. But you need to back it up.
"You're obviously not from Chicago" doesn't cut it.

Didn't realize how many people don't know the difference between Irish and Germans!
They look different than each other and also look at their fucking last names! Take a guess where the last name O'Malley comes from. How about Schultz? Not that complicated.

Obviously last names. Thanks for the insight.

Specifically visually? How do they look different?

Discussing neighborhood gossip about who is made and who is running things in Elmwood Park or Grand Avenue is not being a "fanboy." Please stop these self-decided myth busting crusades...why not just ignore people you feel over-hype the Outfit and move on? You are on an OC forum. Of course people exaggerate. IF you are a recovering alcoholic, you probably shouldn't browse the liquor store and get mad at the owner for "tempting you."

I find it odd that the, for lack of better term, "anti-Outfit" people get so angry. If people like Huron and ChiTown are wrong who cares? Why are you guys getting so angry? I have not once seen any of these guys claim the Outfit was all powerful. In reality, almost every single one of them has said just the opposite. All they've said is that they're still around in some form or another...which I don't really think anyone debates.


And furthermore, aren't we all "fanboys" to an extent? For Christ's sake we're posting on a mafia message board. Some people on here have more than 5,000 posts!

Good grief.

The "German" comment was correcting that the Irish do not make up the most claimed ethnic heritage in Chicago, it is, I was saying, Germans.

However, I actually Googled it and it has changed over the last few years, and now Irish is in fact the most claimed ethnic group.

Germans traditionally settled on the north side, which has probably become less residential to native Chicagoans (of German ancestry) over the last 10-20 years and seen more transplants moving in, thus less people claiming German heritage.

you're a suburban cornball duck

In terms of Outfit corruption today... maybe on a very low level. Like, they could potentially infiltrate the parking meter department or something. Albie Vena may have enough juice to get a road paved a month early.

Beyond that, the world has changed a lot. The Outfit doesn't even have enough cash flow to be a big player.

The entire Outfit wouldn't carry a fraction of the weight of a single downtown multibillion dollar international like Boeing.

Get over it!

Cheech you're such a fucking pussy. Go say respect

Nicky eyes tough guy!

nicky you wouldnt last a minute in my shoes pal...what stress do you have day in and day out? what time do you call mommy and ask her whats for dinner?

+1

+1, this, respect
-Cheech

Suspensions were handed out. You guys will stop flaming!

LOL how did an Outfit post about Italians turn into the process of differentiating the Irish from the Germans??? I dunno but you see a redhead with a drink in his hand it kinda solves the dilemma..:) Me?? I'll be sipping anisette spooling spaghetti doing my part to shatter stereotypes...:) SC is putting everybody in the penalty box the last few days lol 5 minutes for fighting, 10 minutes for unsportsmanslike, 2 minutes for dick riding and a WEEK for talking shit...:) Be nice fellas we can agree to disagree, debates don't have to be insulting..Much knowledge out here. When some of it swings too far in one direction there is always another poster who counteracts things in the other direction...Either way, it all evens out...

Exactly. No power plays here.

Here fucking' here!

lol "Hey we are on an OC forum that I post nonstop on, but uh you are a fanboy, not me!"

You tell him Nicky! How does a person not know the fucking difference between a Patty and a Crout. Lol

Can we talk about al capone now???

I don't recall if I commented or not. But you bringing that picture up is a good example of what I'm talking about when it comes to the Chicago Outfit. There's always allegations, insinuations, hearsay, speculation, and so on. Especially by posters like yourself. This guy knows that guy. That guy was at a party with so and so. This guy was at somebody's fundraiser. That guy got a city job. In other words, lots of smoke. Not much fire. Relatively little of this ever ends up establishing the line you and others have been trying to sell everyone else. Maybe that's why you've resorted to posting pictures. The most recent FBI statements about the Outfit certainly don't bare out what you say. Nor do the indictments.



Or you could just be more specific if you really have anything to say. All you said above is Magnafichi knows but won't say. More hearsay, rumor, etc.



Nobody ever denied there is widespread corruption in Chicago. What's being rejected, including by me, is the false notion that it all revolves around the Outfit.



Being a fanboy has nothing to do with your post count. It means you're actually rooting for a certain crime family, much like a sports team. It means you have a hard time being objective about it and often have an outdated and false view of it. Now, people are free to believe what they want, but to expect to post bullshit on the forums without being questioned or challenged shows they don't have much confidence in their own rhetoric.

+ 1000 to Ivy..;) Amused by the postings of pics lol should we all be impressed?? Wonder what Chitown's idols would say if they knew he was busy perusing these boards posting photos of them in an effort to play bigshot ???

Until the Strawman case, wasn't it just hearsay that Allen Glick was a front for the mob? That means throughout the 1950's to the 1980's, you guys would have claimed that the mob didn't have a piece of the Vegas casinos because there was no hard proof and no prosecutions.

Until Joe Valachi testified, wasn't it just hearsay that the mafia existed and there was a national commission? That means Hoover was right in denying the existence of the mafia for decades since it was just hearsay that the organization existed.

Hearsay doesn't carry the weight of facts, but where there's smoke, there's fire.

Some of the quibbling is probably because there isn't a heckuva lot to talk about. A lot of details are unknown but most are in agreement, generally that there's about 30 guys, two crews, a lot of the older guys have stepped back if not completely retired, Elmwood Park is more white collar if not mostly legit and Cicero is probably more concentrated on the street rackets.

You can bicker about details like what color dice they prefer but... who cares.

We need some more material, aka the FBI needs another bust!

+1 Jonnynonos!

Though Fuck a bust. I want Massino to get his first draft in to Harper Collins!

That is a great comment. I think the single most interesting thing that could possibly happen in the Chicago Outfit right now is if one of these old timers decided to let it all out. And by that I mean JD or JL, for the most part.

If one of those two spilled their guts... they could arguably put a flood light on the whole thing, more or less.

But it will never happen, I don't think.

The judge at the JL trial said "... in these instances we are judged by the worst things we do, and in your case, the worst things have been terrible." (paraphrasing)

I doubt most of these guys even admit to themselves the worst things they did.

Now I am getting into faux psychologist territory, but I remember when Nick Calabrese said, in his first conviction, "I've caused a lot of problems for a lot of people."

That's the understatement of the century. No, you did not "cause a lot of problems for a lot of people." You murdered about 15-20 people. There is a big difference.

Point being, I don't think you'd ever see a true tell-all from most of these guys, and not cause of some stupid code, but because they are, likely, on some level, both terrified and ashamed.

At least that is how I imagine most people would feel after kicking someone to death, etc.

A Lombardo book would be ridiculous, but never going to happen.

The only book we could possibly get is one by Nick Calabrese. At the least, I hope we get a NGC or a Discovery channel documentary about Chicago with Nick Calabrese being interviewed.

I got the impression Nick was a very under the radar guy, and a very recalcitrant informant.

But, hell, if someone offered him big money... he's done worse things for money.

That would be totally bad ass, though, I agree.

Well since you brought it up Ivy, here you go.


This is a recent pic of Outfit bookie Carl Dote (who the FBI still identifies as an associate of the Outfit and brother to Tony Dote who is arguably a made guy) posing with the former Mayor of Des Plaines Marty Moylan:
http://www.moylanforstaterep.com/

The other guys in the photo include Alderman Mark Waltsen:
http://www.desplaines.org/directory.aspx?EID=7

And Alderman John Robinson:
http://www.desplaines.org/directory.aspx?EID=3

I included links to these guys since it may be difficult for you to identify local Chicagoland pols and goings on from your PC there in Utah.

So Ivy I guess the question is...since the FBI has said nothing about corruption with the Outfit in Des Plaines, I suppose that current politicians attending the opening party for the restaurant whose owner is a convicted felon and known associate of the Chicago Outfit is just some kind of "coincidence?" lol I'm not sure you are gonna convince anyone on this board of that.

12th Street...instead of being jealous, just right click and download these and post them all you want in other forums.

The funny thing is that Paula Dote had this pic on her Facebook...lol its hilarious these pols don't freak out about something this blatant.

Someone send it to John Kass!

Jealous? Lol..Ive known many Outfit guys in my life and even have had some as relatives. I just don't think its anything to brag about and kinda feel sorry for those who would be impressed with things like that..

We believe ya bud. I mean anyone impressed or fascinated with Outfit members would never be spending time on an OC forum discussing them constantly right?

My interest has to do with my career and my family history. Not because I'd kneel down before these guys like you would..:) what you believe is irrelevant

Wow you seem to know so much about me and my motivations/idols in life.

SC--What are the rules as it relates to ex-wives posting on mob forums just to torture me? Is that an automatic suspension, or do I have to go to court again

Just as you seem to know mine, right? Ex wives can be VICIOUS lol this is debate and argument how you take it is on you

I still think you are my ex wife. She constantly told me what I was thinking, just like you just did when you talk about my "admiration" for mobsters because I post pictures of them on an OC internet forum (that contains hundreds of pictures of mobsters ). Apology accepted.

An apology was never extended...:) If your skin is thin that's your problem lol...Maybe she would bust your balls cuz she got tired of ironing you Cavarricis, perhaps??? Why do you still wear those??? ...:)

Said it before and I'll say it again.

Someone call the BOP and let them know Kukliski's out. Or make that the local Cem.

Far right! (photo)

Ignore the fact that most people (myself included) just had to google the word "Cavarricis" which was spelled wrong in the first place, uh good comeback?

my 2 cents the outfit is extinct.

Close to it

Everyone is entitled to their opinions right?

(Sonny likey:)

You can have your own opinions, but you cant have your own facts.

The Outfit isn't remotely close to being "extinct", and there is nothing that would, or should lead anyone to believe that. Why do you people get so bent out of shape about this? Who cares? What's the difference?

They're just trolls and flamers.

I didn't bring it up. You did.



I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything as far as that photo goes. And that's because I don't go on speculation and innuendo like you do. You have no real info about the significance of the photo so you simply post it and hope people's imaginations will start running wild.

Its funny you say that Jace I was wondering if the LA mafia even exited anymore?

I have no real info about the significance either...but I have common sense. When you see polls attending social functions for known mobsters and posing with them for pictures, common sense implies their is corruption.

Then again I feel like common sense isn't your forte or you wouldn't be living in Utah

Stop the digs already!

Quit bashing Utah. I live in Taxifornia, where we have some of the highest state taxes, gas taxes, and number of stupid anti-free market regulations in the country. New York and Mass. are just as bad, or close to it. Utah's economy is better than most other states, and probably lower in corruption too. Dry climate, beautiful scenery, I wouldn't mind relocating to Utah myself (and I'm not a Mormon).

Thanks for contributing that to this thread.

You're welcome. Maybe we can return to discussing the original topic now.

Keep in mind that ChiTown (Fratto) has always needed to resort to personal attacks because his arguments regarding the Outfit are full of holes. He did it over on the RD forum and that's what ultimately got him banned. He and the rest of the Chicago fanboy crowd just need to start their own forum where they can all worship the Chicago mob (the one that exists only in their head) without being bothered with facts.

+1...IKR ??? Some of these guys are like rock groupies..Instead of backstage they're under the tables at Richard's or The Grotto...:) I wonder if there are any pics of THAT that will be posted so we all are REALLY impressed lol

It's also funny how some of the guys always preface some old Outfit-connected shlep at a bar saying "He's a bad man" and "That's no one you would want to play around with" etc.

I mean, these guys are not Navy Seals, they are usually overweight and often elderly with no training. Most of them couldn't run around the block without having a coronary.

I obviously find the Outfit interesting and enjoy talking about it but I guess I don't find the fact that some psychopath would put a bullet in someone's head from a back seat because John DiFronzo told him to that impressive.

But that's exactly why they ARE bad men. It's not their physical but mental capability which is the issue.

Navy seals whilst fit, trained guys don't often go round double tapping from back seats.

These guys do.

I'm no fan of any of these criminals, but I do find them interesting and intriguing relative to how they are capable of doing the things they do. Most of these guys should be locked up. I occasionally make a comment or post an article. I realize I'm "out of my depth" with most folks on the board, but some of you guys (yourself included) save me lots of time by providing information that I'm trying to find.

I started reading about The Chicago Outfit back in the 60's and have continued on-and-off for years. Being composed of just one family makes it easier to follow timelines, etc. I've done the same with NY.

I know what you're talking about with the personal attacks and profanity-laced responses. Totally uncalled for and rather childish. Differences should be respected and not denigrated. Discussions and debate can take place without personal attacks. I hope it stops.

Albert Vena - hero to many of these posters - is all of about 5'2" or 5' 3" and has type 2 diabetes pretty badly. A Navy Seal he is not - but most definitely a killer. Has beaten one murder rap that I can think of and also was acquitted of Attempted Murder of a Chicago Police Officer who tried to execute the arrest warrant for the murder in question. To discuss the Chicago Outfit or the rest of the American Mafia in a historical fashion or in the ways they continue to operate in the 21st Century is indeed fascinating to all of us or we wouldn't be on these boards. That - however - is MUCH different from being akin to those who hold these guys up as Robin Hoods or some anti-heroes when they are neither...

The Outfit was divided into two sections years ago:

1) The Northern Section (Elmwood Park, Grand Ave)
2) The Southern Section (Cicero, 26th St)

The Northern Section doesn't care what the Southern Section does concerning the Street Rackets. They are free to do what they wish without any interference.
They are strictly white collar.

The Southern Section is the Traditional Outfit and concentrates mainly on Street Rackets with some legitimate business.

The Northern Section is now basically just Elmwood Park.
A couple of guys and a few associates of theirs answer to Elmwood Park.

Grand Avenue has no Boss, made men, and Soldier/Associates running a full scale organization like years ago.
Grand Ave retreated with Elmwood Park years ago.
There is no way Elmwood park would retreat without Grand Ave.
It was an alliance forged and deeply rooted over the yrears which was discussed an executed by DiFronzo and Lombardo.

Simply not true. There are guys in the Elmwood Park Crew that operate under their Capo and there are a few guys in the Elmwood Park Crew who are direct with DiFronzo who have backed off. The Elmwood Park Crew is not obsolete or 100% legit.

Grand Ave is still a functioning Crew but is probably the smallest of the 4 Crews. To say it is obsolete along with the entire Elmwood Park Crew is simply untrue and actually somewhat ridiculous.

All 4 Crews function to various degrees and DiFronzo
is still the Power much like Accardo was the Power behind the scenes for many years.

The Outfit was not divided into two seperate sections. Before Mike Sarno went away, he received messages and certain instructions passed on to him from John DiFronzo through a messenger.

Money was passed up to DiFronzo for his Political Connections
from Cicero, 26th Street & Grand Ave. DiFronzo operates no differently than Accardo did years ago. He learned from the best. The difference is that the Outfit is smaller and less powerful than years ago.

Elmwood park mainly does 3 things these days, Legit Real estate and construction, real estate "Dumping", which believe it or not is semi legit,both in conjunction with Rockford, and prostitution/Adult entertainment/Human trafficking in conjunction with the Russians.

Wow these Chicago threads are a mess. So now people are saying the Outfit is not two separate groups? I am more inclined to agree with guys like Huron who have been consistent. I do not buy that the Cicero crew needs the approval from John Difronzo for everything they do. Any chance one of the knowledgeable Chicago posters can set me straight on who is on top? Is it still Jimmy I, Solly D, Sal Cautadella, and Frank Caruson that are the most influential and have the top spots whatever they may be?

Not a Chicago poster but I'll just share some of what I have seen and can speculate on:

1. DiFronzo may be acting in a semi-retired "advisory" capacity, much the same way as Accardo.

2. Marco D'Amico may very well be the boss on the street right now.

3. The next four after Marco, regardless of activity, would be Andriacchi, Pete DiFronzo, Solly D, and Inendino.

4. The next level consists of Matassa, Toots Caruso, Vena, and Tony Dote.

5. The only really heavy guy left would be Cautadella, who may have moved up if one or both of Andriacchi and Pete are done, which is a good chance.

6. Entirely speculation on my part.

Thank you Snakes. I realize this is speculation but you gave me the information I wanted, thank you. This is why I go on this forum. I really have enjoyed your lists and other posts. Keep up the great work!

I have read/participated in about 1000 of these threads, and I think it's safe to say that virtually no one knows.

Some theories sound more sensible than others but at the end of the day without a big bust and revelatory information it's just too hard to say.

I totally agree, but that's kind of what makes mob-watching "fun" - for lack of a better term. I guess "interesting" would be more suitable.

Yeah isn't that what these forums are for? Everyone is allowed to give their honest guess or opinion on underground stuff which hasn't been printed in writing ?

Totally! Not trashing anyone. Just offering my two cents'

the trial with the serial killing former cop is all the proof u need

he mentioned meeting with grand avenue and is on the wire talking about elmwood park

he wouldn't have met anybody from grand ave or mentioned elmwood if they were deactivated

plus d'amico is the biggest bookie and that contradicts the "white collar" only theory

Please post a link. All I read about was him dropping names to other people.

Keep in mind that ChiTown (Fratto) has always needed to resort to personal attacks because his arguments regarding the Outfit are full of holes.

"Hello Kettle, this is IvyLeague the pot,,I just wanted to tell you...YOU'RE BLACK"

You have already shown you know NOTHING about the Chicago or Rockford families, and what you think you know is laughable wrong.But that's what happens when you(Your words) "Never question the Feds information" LOL..I honestly can't even think that to myself without actually laughing out loud.

Check out the new link I posted in the "outfit strip club" plot thread. Vena's not on tape, but the trial transcripts mentioned the article seem to confirm that he met with Albie Vena and another unidentified Grand Avenue guy at La Scarola.

All I see is Mandell saying he met Vena. Actually in the transcript I don't see Vena's name, but the paper says that's who he's referring to.

Mandell sounds like a whack job.

Mandell is a complete psychopath, scary because he looks like a normal guy in photos. Anybody see the videos of him in "Club Med" from an FBI bug?

Yes, I would say he's nuts.

If I read this article correctly, Mandell's (Manning's) father was killed by the mob - yet he continued working with them all these years.

https://www.dailyherald.com/article/20001115/news/711159999/print/

It sure is saying that. Wow...good find.

Nice Info Stonepark keep it coming