Can the Mafia ever gain the strength it once had?

Can the Five Families--one or any of them--ever regain the strength they once had? If so, if it's at all possible, how? What sort of rackets and new strategies should be pursued to revitalize the Families? Let's say, how could we get the Gambino Family to be as large and strong as it was in say, 1975?

No the glory days r gone and never coming back. A lot of there power had to do with their control over the unions, which some of the families(especially the geneveses) still have some influences but its only a small fraction of what it once was. But their control over the major teamster unions are over. They can no longer hold monopolies over entire industries like they did back in the 80s with the concrete and garment industries.

I say no. This younger generation of mamas boys can't deal with any inconveniences like prison. There will be a whole new generation of squealers (Rats) and they will continue the destruction of the mob. Just my opinion

No way the times have changed the RICO act has been here so long and has been so effective and its a new generation

Simple answer: no. Leave it at that

No, for all the reasons everyone else cited. Plus, other ethnic gangs (Russians, West Indians, Chinese, Vietnamese, Albanians, etc.) are skimming the cream of rackets that formerly belonged to the Mafia.

No

Number 1 they pretty much stil have the same union control especially in construction that they always have

The issue is unions aren't near as strong as they once were
Gambling has been legalized alot of places
Porn is on the Internet
Loan sharking Is credit cards payday loans etc etc

Personally I think the Genovese family has taken over a lot of rackets from the other ny families like certain contractors la quilla. The ny post etc etc


And the recruitment pool even in ny while maybe as large as it once was isn't in the city
So kids don't watch the wiseguys making the moves
And wanna grow up and be the real wiseguys like Tino fuimara
They want to be reel wiseguys like tony soprano

the post is still the bonannos no? they have the deliverers union which is DN and the post.

In addition to the reasons listed above, other reasons include the fact that law enforcement would never allow it and urban politics and policing having changed.

With the Feds having 10 agents to look over 700-800 members and thousands of associates they have a shot.

No,that was golden age,but they can become really powerful in the cases of big economic crisis or big war etc.(i hope that doesn't happen)

they're probably gonna use other agencies to chase the ny mafia

or the ny mafia doesn't have as many members as estimated

or the ny mafia cut a deal with the feds to back off

Yeah the nysd ( sanataion dept ) they are gonna start to lead the mob investigations in ny.

I hate to say it but cook county is techinically sort of right(not the obviously retarded statement about ny cutting a deal). But in the nypd there is the organized crime control bureau(occb) that also investigates the mafia. I believe the latest bannano bust of nicky mouths crew was carried out by the occb.

It's actually 25-35 agents. And that's not counting other law enforcement agencies.

FBI nypd and all other government and state agencies #1,2, and 3 goal is terrorists. Nypd true they have a oc taskforce but that's only in the 5 boroughs in Long Island westchester jersey they can't do anything and for the nypd to get any help from local law enforcement agency's that aint gonna happen that will just lead to a pissing match. You can't get the FBI CIA state department to work together on matters of national security. You think nypd is going to get Suffolk pd or Nassau pd cooperation. Less scrutiny from law enforcement and better leadership should make the families stronger genovese are well lead already I think the other families have a shot except the columbos untill junior goes ain't no fixing them.

FBI Cuts Mob Busting Agents Again; Down 60% Since 2008



Memo to Big Frank, Bowat and Stevie Wonder: Relax. That woman you saw the other day who looked out of place probably wasn't an FBI agent. Neither was the guy who eyeballed you near your house. And don't worry about that suspicious-looking car that pulled up alongside you last week – or fret about using your cell phone, for that matter.

The FBI now has only three agents assigned to cover the entire Luchese crime family, Gang Land has learned. You may be old-school mobsters who made a vow never to give up The Life, but agents have little interest in onetime underboss Frank (Big Frank) Lastorino, or former acting boss Anthony (Bowat) Baratta – or even the borgata's current boss, Steven (Stevie Wonder) Crea.

It can be if our infamous poster Cook County is made Boss of the Genovese Family so he can cut a deal with the FEDS. Anyway, that's the way I see it.

Yes the mafia has definately gotten stronger since 9/11 when the fbis main priority became terriorism, but as evidenced by the historic bust of january 2011 that the feds r gonna let the mafia grow so much before they close back in on them. And also the recent santora crew case i referenced above proves that the nypd occb can be effective against the mob

Your 100%. Lets put it this way if the nypd or lapd has 4000 officers out on the streets then they cut down to 400 how effective do you think they can be.

Yes i can agree that depleted resources(budget cuts) and manpower is gonna make it an uphill battle for law enforcement.

+1

Next.

Dellacroce you don't think with the rite guys in the leadership positions some of these families can get stronger. Especially with less eyes on em

Yes i agree and for the most part at the moment all the families have their leaderships pretty much intact, and these guys r never gonna give up and stop scheming. all im trying to say is that the feds r only going to take a hands off approach for so long before they close back in.

No are joking then the wise guys will just make another deal with the Feds. Fucken unreal. Smh

It seems like the intent of Ray Kelly is to put a camera on every square inch of NY city. It is hard to convey to people outside NY how "locked down" it really is. There isn't much chance of any crime wave, much less a mob resurgence. It has all become very controlled.

It is also hard to convey much it WASN'T like that when the mob flourished.

I think the only thing that could bring it back would be an immigration wave from Italy. And that ain't happenin.

What I think is that they have established a status quo. The feds know that they can never completely annihilate organized crime. If they destroy the New York Mafia other groups will simply fill the vaccuum. Better to have an established organization that they know to be in charge to some degree and maintain order within the underworld than lesser known foreign groups.

That big bust in early 2011 was just for the show in order to justify to the public why they would reduce the number of FBI squads dedicated to fight the Five Families. And the Mafia probably realises not to become too opportunistic and exploit the situation, because it can change back to what it was within a heart beat.

On one hand, you don't really see law enforcement officials making those rosy predictions about destroying the mob in another 5 years like they did back in the 1980's and 1990's. At least in New York, they appear to have realized this is going to take a lot longer than some expected.

On the other hand, they've had to reevaluate their priorities over the past decade. Not just in regards to terrorism in the wake of 9/11; but also in regards to transnational organized crime, which has become the Justice Department's #1 priority in that area.

From 1986 to 2010, convictions involving La Cosa Nostra was 78%, while convictions involving emerging organized crime groups was 22%. However, since 9/11, from 2002 to 2010, convictions involving La Cosa Nostra has been 60%, while convictions involving emerging organized crime groups has been 40%.

In short, it seems like the "status quo" the feds have settled with, at least for now, is to simply use the minimal (some would argue too minimal) manpower needed to keep the mob in check. Keep the indictments coming, keep the mob from regaining a lot of influence, while waiting for attrition to take it's toll.

Im wondering

the comment about ny cutting a deal was sarcasm

I think that the mafia will not return certainly at the golden age in which had a monopoly on the concrete and garbage disposal and controlled las vegas, but given the situation in Italy, it is more likely that the American Mafia restore the old bridge with Italy recruiting new zips, not only from Sicily, but also from campania and the other regions of the south.Strax maybe is right in view of what is going on in detroi twho knows if the Detroit Partnership will have some advantages.

Hello Furio, You're right. America needs more Zips. There were a lot of good men here in America from Naples and a couple other Cities in Southern Italy.
My Grand Parents came from Potenza. Both sides.
Ciao for now.

Ivy attrition won't take it's toll in this situation NYC still has a very large recruitment base. There will always be guys willing to step up. However that being said I do think they're going to dwindle into a lesser organization. But that's going to take a long time

The Italian Americans who are in their 20's and 30's today are almost all 3rd and 4th generation. There are plenty of them, but most of them want better things in life. There are more Italian American college graduates in this country than any of the other other Western European immigrant groups (except the for Wasps, and they really don't count as immigrants). So why should they choose crime? Unless that's all you think Italians are good for?

The recruitment base is dwindling, Joe, and attrition IS taking its toll on the mob in NYC, whether you want to believe it or not. I'm not one of these guys who gets on his geographical high horse and mocks out of towners, but living in Cape Cod all your life you have no idea what these neighborhoods looked like 30 years ago compared to today.

The mob will always be around because crime will always be around. But it will never be what it used to be.


That's exactly right, Sonny. The wiseguys know that things aren't so bad right now, but if they test the feds with murders and an aggressive rebuilding they'll be grabbing a tiger by the tail. So why rock the boat?

And besides, just because the feds put out stories in the media stating that they're easing up on the mob doesn't mean anything. They could be giving them a false sense of security. I don't trust the government as far as I can throw them. Also, they don't need nearly as many agents today because of the advances in electronic surveillance. If a guy as brash as Gotti became boss today they'd put him away even faster.

Pizza Boy, You are a very realistic and sharp guy. I commend you.

The mob can regain its power back if they can get back political influence and more people who believe in the code of Omertà.

That's what I meant with status quo. But if attrition takes its toll, then what? I don't see what the feds gain with the complete destruction of the Five Families. They will simply have to battle other groups with the same amount of manpower. The status quo they have reached is probably the best they can achieve.

Better to have some form of controlled organized crime than a fragmented, disorganized criminal underworld.

I would say 5th generation. The majority of Italians settled in the United States between 1890 and 1920. The generation of John Gotti was already third generation.

No doubt, Sonny. I was being kinda liberal with that statement. I mean, I'm 54 years old and I'm the second generation in my family born in America. All four of my grandparents were born in Italy. That makes my kids third generation and my grandkids fourth generation. And my family got here at the end of that time frame (right around 1920).

Like you said, the overwhelming majority of Italian American families came here between 1880 and 1920. That's a fact. So if your family was on the early side of that time frame, your kids are 5th and even 6th generation today. In other words, they're American, they've assimilated, hopefully they're educated, and they're less likely to see any upside in the mob life. And more importantly, they don't NEED the mob life. That's the main difference. Fifty or sixty years ago there were some guys who had few other options. Today that isn't the case.

Thanks, buddy. But I ain't so sharp. I'm just a lot older than most of the other board members here .

you seem clueless

Short answer: no.

THIS IS WHY ITS CALL MY OPINION!

I talked to an FBI agent while down the shore last year (friend of the family) and he said although the mafia will never be what they once were, they are def on the rise because law enforcement is so focused on terrorism.

The only people getting any benefit or advantages off of whats happening in detroit are the drug kingpins.

That's a fair assessment. But I still say the feds will only let them "rise" so high. Eliminating murder is the key. If they start killing each other like they did back in the day, the feds will turn up the heat in a heartbeat. But that's a double-edged sword. If they stop killing people, pretty soon they're not as feared as they once were, and the whole thing starts to break down.

The older guys that are successful and still on the street are happy with the way things are. The younger guys are probably pissed off because they feel they were born too late and they have no money. It's when these younger dopes start to think they can behave like their bosses did thirty years ago that they'll have a problem. And that thinking is inevitable.

Pizza, will these young guys one day inherit the older guys' rackets or will it die off with the old timers?

Well, in my opinion, the big money "legitimate" things like contracting and construction will go to the younger guys who are related by blood. If you look at the Lucchese and Westside construction guys, they're all putting their sons in those businesses, whether they're in the life or not.

What I'm trying to say is that no up and coming young kid right now is going to make himself millions in the construction racket all by himself. That door is closed. But the kids who are being put in those businesses by their fathers and uncles will hold onto them (for the near future at least).

As far as the bookmaking and shylocking, it will always be around because people want to gamble and people want to borrow money. That's the bread and butter for the blue collar guys in the families. But there's just so much competition and so many rats today that collecting isn't even worth the aggravation half the time.

The rich guys will get richer, the poor guys will have a harder time making a living than ever. Just like in the legitimate world .

And my opinion sir is that you must be 15 or have no real knowledge of the street racket.

PIZZABOY, 100% right on target my friend.
Exactly what has happened in Chicago. That's why Elmwood Park retreated several years ago.
The younger guys/relatives are in legitimate business with some white collar attached to it. Really no different than other shrewd businessmen.

A couple of the unrealistic naïve Fanboys, who don't know anything about the streets, want to argue differently because someone in their local neighborhood bar told them differently. LOL.

As the older guys die off, we might see more murders. enough of the older guys go the whole dynamics will change.

if pigs could use tools then they could build houses!

I WHOLE HEARTEDLY agree with Pizza Boy and Chicago about the white collar shit and guys putting their sons into it to make legit money. I still believe though that once Pops dies though, those businesses and their contracts and profits are ripe to be armed by the next generation of street guys. We have seen it here in Chicago. Ricca's son was ripped off in a scam and recently those old Hanhardt Crew guys broke into Angelo LaPietra's house..I'm sure they won't be easy to arm but nonetheless it's quite possible. Am very curious to see what Cicero does when the old Elmwood Park guys --i.e. the DiFronzos, Andriacchi and D'Amico die off.

pizzaboy summed it up well above. Even the NY families are down from their max size decades ago. And there's also attrition in terms of quality. It certainly takes it toll much slower in New York than elsewhere but it's there.

I'm not saying that the street guys will be SUCCESSFUL in trying to arm the white collar groups, they'll probably mess it up and all get indicted lol as they are not of the same salt as their predecessors..But I think they will try in some fashion..

It still my opinion sometime this sh*t feel like school everyone want to be the COOL KIDS.

Attrition and the RICO law have beat the Mob Families down like nothing else. New York will just take a lot longer.
Smart men like DiFronzo knew when to retreat.
It's all a big poker game on the streets with the FEDS AND SOMEBODY YOU KNOW WELL who might be talking to them.
You got to know when to hold'em and know when to fold'em.

DiFronzo Brothers, Andriacchi, Lombardo (who got unlucky) and D'Amico all understood the Poker game very well.

Lombardo did get unlucky. I'll never understand why Pat Spilotro thought Lombardo could have done anything to save the Spilotro brothers. Lombardo was in prison and couldn't do a damn thing-at least not that time. Who knows? As much as Aiuppa loved Lombardo it may have been the fact that he was in prison that saved Lombardo from getting killed as well in that he was supposed to keep a lid on Tony Spilotro and did not do a good job of it...

they have already dwindled my dude

they have rat infested families

do you understand what that means?

12Th St. That was a possible scenario. Tony was strictly on a tribute set up unlike most other made guys in Chicago who are more in a real partnership set up. Tony ran his street crew anyway he wanted and just gave some kind of reasonable tribute to Lombardo. This is what happens when you lose control over your men.
I don't think Lombardo would have been killed if he were not in Prison. It's very difficult and political to kill a Boss in Chicago.

No, what would have happened is that Lombardo would have had a meeting with Tony and his brother, and at the meeting, Lombardo and some other men would have killed both of them.
This is just hypothetical but my opinion.

I could see that too, I guess...Either way Lombardo would have been on the spot and definitely would have been given their tickets.

Yeah you were right Ivy. PB explained it to me.

The american mafia could survive only just having as a reference the Ndrangheta, which is almost impenetrable and which supplanted in power the Sicilian Mafia.
The boys of the Ndrangheta grow and are introduced through marriages between young people who are already introduced, creating some blood ties, because no one would betray, this would impact on his family, exposing it to transversal vengeances, in Calabria Ndrangheta kids grow already knowing what is their fate, they are already indoctrinated as children.
In addition, the division into local and untouchable hierarchy that undergoes continuous changes with degrees that are discovered by the police more often, making the Ndrangheta a mixture of a criminal organization and a Masonic lodge.

If the mafia goes completely white collar, is that a bad thing? At the end of the day it's about money and connections which the white collar stuff gets you. I assume you would still need some muscle around just in case. I'm not sure why there is such a focus on street rackets like gambling and poker machines being the be-all/end-all definition of OC. Would love to hear your guys thoughts.

[/quote]THIS IS WHY ITS CALL MY OPINION! [/quote]

And my opinion sir is that you must be 15 or have no real knowledge of the street racket. [/quote]

It still my opinion sometime this sh*t feel like school everyone want to be the COOL KIDS. [/quote]


think about what you are saying...political power? what kind? local? state? federal? explain yourself a little better...and then ask why any politician would have an adavantage being a aligned with some wiseguy...can you imagine Bloomberg needing any of the mutts that are calling themselves wiseguys? Imagine Bloomberg having lunch at a Queens diner with Tommy DiFiore...those days are over and NEVER coming back

the government is the new mafia any way...they took everything...gambling, loans...its all legal now in some way or form

omerta'?????...when do you see that coming back?

not trying to be a cool kid, just saying your points are a pipe dream

the glory days you see on tv are far far far gone

everyone with any knowledge on here already told you

either you got handed a great garbage/construction business by a family member or extremely close friend (and that club has dwindled to a few) or you are taking bets, loaning out or selling drugs and how long do you think that lasts until you are on the radar and bye bye

much respect to you amigo

the new Bonnano boss was arrested for shaking down porno shops a decade ago...its over

No pipe dream my friend because i do not care my answer was the step they need to take to attempt to regain it.

glad you clarified you are clueless

Sticks and Stones!

Difiore or mancuso?

Can they regain what they had? No. Not close. Can they grow, yea. I think for the most part recently they have proved that.

The problems they have today boil down to two things. Greed and a lack of schooling. Look at these last bonanno arrests. A boss loaning out money directly and meeting with pr associates. Having weed and guns in ur home. I was reading that colombo indictment from 2011. That russo captain that flipped was made for a year before he was made captain. Then he goes along on fucking home invasions. And mikey u robbing card games as a fucking captain. The westside schools guys for yrs as acting and decide if they are capable of becoming captains. Thats the difference and it shows. They wont promote guys they dont think are capable. If theres no one they will send a guy from another crew to be acting. Or have an established captain oversee the crew. All this drives internet guys like ivy nuts but just based off indictments theres no way to know. Are there willing italian kids? Yes. A ton. The problem is the street guys in these nhoods are like the cool kids in school. (Some of them). Ive seen grown men ass kissing a street guys kid.... Everyone is tell so and so i said hi! A good portion of these guys still comand respect and the awe of ppl who dont know that life.

Can they regain what they had? No. Not close. Can they grow, yea. I think for the most part recently they have proved that.

The problems they have today boil down to two things. Greed and a lack of schooling. Look at these last bonanno arrests. A boss loaning out money directly and meeting with pr associates. Having weed and guns in ur home. I was reading that colombo indictment from 2011. That russo captain that flipped was made for a year before he was made captain. Then he goes along on fucking home invasions. And mikey u robbing card games as a fucking captain. The westside schools guys for yrs as acting and decide if they are capable of becoming captains. Thats the difference and it shows. They wont promote guys they dont think are capable. If theres no one they will send a guy from another crew to be acting. Or have an established captain oversee the crew. All this drives internet guys like ivy nuts but just based off indictments theres no way to know. Are there willing italian kids? Yes. A ton. The problem is the street guys in these nhoods are like the cool kids in school. (Some of them). Ive seen grown men ass kissing a street guys kid.... Everyone is tell so and so i said hi! A good portion of these guys still comand respect and the awe of ppl who dont know that life.

I heard that through history only 30 'Ndrangheta guys have become "pentiti" and only one of those was some sort of 'captain'. Considering the huge number of 'Ndrangheta connected guys in Calabria and the rest of Italy and Europe, this is really a small number. They're by far the most respected in the criminal world because they never rat and that's why they're so successfull.

Anyway, I think that such structure is impossible to implement in the USA. 'Ndrangheta prospers because its base is a rural mono-ethnic region with almost 'medieval' values when it comes to marriage, patriarchy and clan. I'm talking about rural parts of Calabria, such as the famous village of San Luca for example. 'Ndrangheta has been recognized as a supreme authority for decades, people simply don't trust the state and there's not much the government can do about it.

Urban areas of USA where American LCN exists are a completely different environment though and it's impossible to completely isolate from it and try to live by some mediterranean rural patriarchal code of honour. Things did work well for the American mafia for a certain period of time, when the Italian-Americans haven't assimilated yet and lived in their neighbourhoods where omerta existed on a certain level, but from what I read such neighbourhoods no longer exists and LCN has difficulties recruiting new members. Once the American LCN lost its base, the decline became only a matter of time.

tommy d

exactly my point...its a joke...you got guys high up in the hierarchy sort of speak and they are pulling bullshit capers

is there still money to be made? ABSOLUTELY

the golden age though is so far from over its not even close

@ slava: +1

@ cheech: /me chuckles

@ baldo: the reason there is minimal transference by the mob from blu collar gambling and loan to white collar (stock fraud etc) is simply because the mob is composed of blue collar guys.

Operating a juice book and manipulating a stock price are two very very different things. It's not a case whereby the admin of a family can just 'decide' to move into white collar crimes. The intellect and skill base isn't there. If it was, they wouldn't be in the mob in the first place.

They'd be robbing/stealing and fucking people over from Goldman Sachs. Legally.

Heres a good link to information about the mafias involvment with the stock market. Its from 2000 so nothing recent but still a good read.


http://www.sec.gov/news/testimony/ts142000.htm

Question. If there is not a sufficient recruiting pool in America, why don't they recruit people from Sicily? True these guys todays are 5th/6th gen Italian-Americans but at least some have to have connections back home.

When guys suggest just recruiting guys from Sicily, what exactly makes anyone think Sicilians want to be in this country? They do have their own minds and can think. I always hear it put the way you did, and it implies that sicilians are some sort of property and can just be brought here if wanted.
Sicilians don't want to be here. They're happy where they are.
And if they do come here, then what? They're here as visitor, which means they can only stay 6 months and have to keep going back to renew visitor status to come back here. Eventually they may be granted a visa, but if not, they'll get tossed out.
It's not as easy as just recruit sicilians to come here. Nobody ever puts much thought into that statement.

Carmela haven't you said the living conditions in southern Italy are still bad and many would immigrate here if they could?

No, that wasn't me. I've said Italy and Sicily's unemployment rate is at all time high, something like 30%. Places in Sicily look like ghetto towns over here. No air, no washer/dryer, simple things they don't have that we could never live without over here. BUT, I said what makes them happy is just being surrounded by their family and food. Life is simple. They don't want to be here to live.

^Maybe we could take a page out of there book sometime

Carmela, I speak as a boy of southern Italy, and I tell you that the situation is truly tragic and more come down to the south, more it becomes worse. There is a terrible youth unemployment, and though I'm a university student, I don't know if I'll find work. To tell the truth a lot of people from Sicily, Calabria Campania etc. emigrate no longer in America but in Europe because it suits him more by having a good chance of success while remaining close to home (a friend of mine emigrated in Toulouse in France). That said, if the American Mafia would restore the old bridge with the mother country, he would be recruited (assuming that they'll can enter in the United States) many criminals from all over Italy not only from the south.

We're pretty much saying the same thing. I wish you luck finding a job when you graduate.
I also have a cousin that just 2 weeks ago moved out of Agrigento to Tenerife, Spain, for work, after Italcementi officially closed about 6 months or so ago in Italy. He thought he had a secure job, who would think a company such as Italcementi would ever close.
But going to Spain, France, etc is easy with a Euro passport. It's not like trying to get a visa in the US.

I still say it's not so easy to just "recruit" guys to the US. Coming into the US isn't as easy. It's not like mexicans. Once they catch up with you, you're out. And if you DO get a visa, and you go back to Italy and stay in Italy for extended period of time, they'll revoke your visa for 10 years to this country. Whatever they'd do as far as mafia recruitment, it'd have to be as visitors; back and forth every 6 months or less.

That's spot-on, Carmela. The Mexicans can crawl under a fence to get here, the Italians can't. And even if Southern Italians and Sicilians were inclined to leave their family lives behind and come here legally, the immigration laws no longer favor Western Europeans. And that's not going to change anytime soon, if ever. The United States government would rather welcome potential terrorists than Western Europeans today, all in the name of "fair" demographics. And people wonder why this country is so fucked up .

An American citizen can always marry some one from Italy and bring them here. A real or just for show wedding.

There's a lot of smart people in the mafia, they will find a way if they want to.

You're over a decade behind. This hasn't been the case since ICE took over after 9/11.

EXACTLY.

And not only will you get deported, you'll be treated almost like a terrorist while you're incarcerated and waiting to get shipped back. It's no fucking joke.

But Sandra Bullock did it in 'The Proposal'?!

hysterical

Glad to see some common sense around here.

The TG2 shown some interesting stats gathered by the ISTAT during a special report about a month ago (I watched it on Tv so can't link it here):
Italian emigration is up 11% from 2011, counting between 85-90 thousands people moving out in 2012/13. And it's been going on for a while, past statistics shown just slightly inferior numbers.

But they don't come here because it's not worth the bureaucratic madness and the outrageously expensive legal fees.

Like Carmela said: they're not Mexicans.
Not even Somali refugees I should add. Which means that they're not that desperate.

The same ISTAT data shown the average contemporary Italian immigrant to be:

- 25-34 yrs old;
- male;
- from Northern Italy (note: their last residence before emigrating. Many Southerns take a chance up North before deciding to move away.);
- with at least a Bachelor's Degree;

They go to better off EU nations due to the fact that they don't need a visa to work there and because most do score quite high quality-of-life-wise: Germany, Austria, the Netherlands, France, the UK (which to Italians means London) and, to a much lesser extent, Scandinavian countries.

As far as non-EU nations, Switzerland is still n.1, even more than the aforementioned ones.
Canada follows far behind.
They do need visas to work/live there but it's easier to obtain one than here.