Just out of curiosity. I mean as soon as Sammy Gravano took the witness stand, he had to know that, combined with the tapes and his usual counsel being kicked out of the court, that it was over. That he was going away forever, no fixed jury here.
It's really surprising--considering say the Massino thing, and John's ego--that he didn't flip. I mean he thought of himself as LCN personified, I'm surprised his attitude was "LCN dies with me."
Anyway, would the FBI have even taken him up on a deal at that point, in 1991?
As much as everyone hates on Gotti, and I do agree he was a bad boss as far as LCN goes but he was definitley a man's man. "100 years from now when im in jail, it's gonna be Cosa Nostra." He was a man of his word, and like my dad always told me, you can be a dirt poor bum, but as long as you're a man of your word you have something to be proud of, only in Gotti's case he was a murderer, crime kingpin. Still a man of his word nonetheless gotta respect that.
In every case where the .gov flips a felon, it's always because they want a bigger fish or they are trading one 10 pound fish for 20 one pound fishes. At that time, there was no bigger fish than Gotti. Gotti had embarrassed the .gov so much that they wanted to nail him to the cross at all costs including letting the 2nd biggest fish walk after minimal time for 19 murders. One could argue that Sammy was more of a criminal than JG but the .gov still wanted JG more because of the public's perception of him.
It was his dream to be talked about for generations to come.
I heard something once where he said "If a church got robbed and I got pulled over with the steeple sticking out of my ass I would say I have no idea what you're talking about"
To tie in the other topic here about Scarfo or Gotti? Great point about Gotti he was a true gangster like Scarfo even if deals would have come forth both of them would tell the F.B.I. to go fuck themselves. Whatever there faults they lived and died LCN. But we all know the F.B.I. wanted him to rot forever in prison.
There was nothing left to flip on. They had Gotti, they were closing in on the Corrozzo faction, they had good intel on the Florida crews. Gotti couldn't have known about the cramming "internet billing scam" that was on the horizon. What info (besides obviously rolling on other families) could Gotti have provided at the time on the Gambino's? He wasn't gonna roll on One Eyed Pete or Junior, so who was there at the time that essentially would have been worth it to the Federal Government more so than Gotti finally behind bars after mocking the system for years?
There was nothing left to flip on. They had Gotti, they were closing in on the Corrozzo faction, they had good intel on the Florida crews. Gotti couldn't have known about the cramming "internet billing scam" that was on the horizon. What info (besides obviously rolling on other families) could Gotti have provided at the time on the Gambino's? He wasn't gonna roll on One Eyed Pete or Junior, so who was there at the time that essentially would have been worth it to the Federal Government more so than Gotti finally behind bars after mocking the system for years?
I don't know what you mean by he had nothing to offer. As boss he knew about almost every racket, could back up Gravano's testimony, and could give info on the other families and their bosses. The Corozzo faction wasn't busted until December 1996, which was 6 years after Gotti was arrested. Gotti was in the same situation as Massino after Vitale flipped. Of course the feds would have welcomed him with open arms. Imagine the coup, forcing the Al Capone of their era to become a rat. That would be more embarrassing to the mafia than sending Gotti to prison.
Gotti didn't flip because he was a true gangster, just like Scarfo, the Commission Case guys, and Chicago guys who were given life.
Despite all of Gotti's flaws, which were numerous, Despite the fact that Gigante hated him, He had two undeniable qualities the Outfit guys respected (even though they had to side with the Genovese's in the background):
1) He had balls bigger than the Empire State Building (reminded them of Giancana) 2) He was a real man who never betrayed himself.
Despite all of Gotti's flaws, which were numerous, Despite the fact that Gigante hated him, He had two undeniable qualities the Outfit guys respected (even though they had to side with the Genovese's in the background):
1) He had balls bigger than the Empire State Building (reminded them of Giancana) 2) He was a real man who never betrayed himself.
I wouldnt say he had balls the size of the empire state building. he did fear certain guys. its pretty common knowledge that he feared Roy demeo. In fact Paul tried to give gotti the contract to kill demeo and gotti weaseled out of it. Also like others have said theer was nobody for gotti to flip on. he was the main target
Getting enough support to kill a Boss in New York takes Big Fucking Balls.
Well to be fair he never got Gigate's ok and Gigante was arguably the most powerful don at the time. Also Paul was at his weakest during that time. Im not disputing gotti wasnta tough guy but he wasnt the most feared or toughest guy out there tahts for sure
Even shows more Balls that he killed a New York Boss without the approval of Gigante! I think Gotti had big balls but I don't wish to Debate how big they were. LOL
The plot to kill Castellano was well thought out and heavily supported within the Gambino family, which i think Chicago meant. In all honesty though it seems it inflated Gottis ego too much, because it went perfectly more or less. Gotti got too into his role as boss, and way too into his media persona that heavily hit the Gambinos even after his life sentence. If it was true that Carlo wanted Tommy to be boss after Paul, i imagine it would have worked out alot better. But hindsight is a blessing, and for all we know Tommy could have been worse or just as bad as Gotti, or Paul may have even named Tommy Bilotti as boss.
From what I understand,Gotti believed that he would win on appeal,or even get a pardon. He really felt that the public loved him so much that he could cause a groundswell of protest that would result in pressure on the Government. Even Sammy thought he was nuts when he started talking seriously about getting together enough cash to bribe the President and get a pardon.
Bottom line,his delusions about his own press led him to believe that his conviction would be overturned. When the day came,(if it ever did) that he accepted the fact that he would die in prison,his final f*** you to the Feds was silence.
The Feds might not have even needed anything from him that they hadn't already gotten from the Bull and other snitches. I think that in Gotti's case they took it personal,since he made them look like goofballs for so long.The thought of making his time easier by turning him was probably not even a thought.
From what I understand,Gotti believed that he would win on appeal,or even get a pardon. He really felt that the public loved him so much that he could cause a groundswell of protest that would result in pressure on the Government. Even Sammy thought he was nuts when he started talking seriously about getting together enough cash to bribe the President and get a pardon.
Bottom line,his delusions about his own press led him to believe that his conviction would be overturned. When the day came,(if it ever did) that he accepted the fact that he would die in prison,his final f*** you to the Feds was silence.
The Feds might not have even needed anything from him that they hadn't already gotten from the Bull and other snitches. I think that in Gotti's case they took it personal,since he made them look like goofballs for so long.The thought of making his time easier by turning him was probably not even a thought.
I don't know if the part i bolded is true, but if it is Gotti deserves his rep as the dumbest mob boss. I've heard people defend Gottis intelligence as a boss before, but if this is true he was completely backward by believing that more press (showing how he's a good guy) would result in an acquittal.
You guys are deluding yourselves if you think the feds wouldn't have welcomed Gotti into their camp with open arms. He would have been the first major mafia boss to flip and it would have been a much bigger victory than sending him to prison for life.
They took Massino after Vitale flipped. That's all that needs to be said.
The Feds not only would have welcomed it, they would have had orgasms if Gotti would have flipped!
Gotti had a big ego, Gotti raised his hand against a Boss, Gotti was a gambler, Gotti didn't understand the huge Gambino Family Business etc. BUT HE HAD BALLS and HE DID HIS TIME AND ACCEPTED IT LIKE A MAN. That I will always give him despite all the other major Flaws.
You guys are deluding yourselves if you think the feds wouldn't have welcomed Gotti into their camp with open arms. He would have been the first major mafia boss to flip and it would have been a much bigger victory than sending him to prison for life.
They took Massino after Vitale flipped. That's all that needs to be said.
Gotti was more than a decade before Massino though, and alot more important. Especially because of his celebrity persona, the FBI wanted to get him more than the other bosses.
This is mostly speculation though neither of us can say that Gotti was offered a deal or not, and we'll never know.
I think why he didn't flip just like Scarfo and why people like Gravano and Casso did is just what were they about LCN or themselves. Sure Scarfo was greedy and Gotti was a self serving egomaniac, they were gangsters to the core, they lived about cosa nostra. Gravano and Casso were gangsters as well but they more cared about themselves. They could of cared less about being seen as gangsters more so than just them doing what they wanted. Gravano was loyal but only because he was making a killing in construction and perfered the shadows, same with Casso. They didn't care about their images they only did what served them. Only a theory im proposing but it might come down to something as little as do they care about their image, or just care about themselves.
Knowing Gotti as we do, I think he would have cut his throat before giving the Feds the satisfaction of turning him. He would rather go down in history as a stand up Boss. Also,being that he wanted Junior to be acting Boss,he might have figured that control of the Gambinos could stay in his family if he wasn't tarnished by a snitch jacket.Or maybe he thought he could pull a Persico and stay Boss while behind bars.
he wanted to leave his mark in history, movies about him..keeping his legacy living long after his death ..john's ego was that big..see marion video's he plays to the camera's..he knows they will be shown .. on tape he speaks loud and clear..like he is defining coda nostra. he had to know that place may be bugged.20 agents every day by that club.
I respect Gotti for standing up for what he believed in. No way his ego lets him flip. Lets not forget he still had family involved with LCN who could have been hurt if he flipped.
In the governments eyes yes he was the biggest fish, but IF he flipped, he could have brought down the WHOLE Gambino family which if I'm a prosecutor I would want more. Taking Gotti down didn't really kill them at all, it was testimony that hurt them most not losing the boss. But in those days I just don't see the feds even trying to get him to flip as he flat out made himself "the target".
Gotti was a real gangster and could have been a very good boss if he was smart enough to keep his mouth shut. The Gambinos were very strong back then and I doubt any of the capos would have ever flipped on him. The entire case and Gravano flipping was all due to him getting caught on tape. He knew they were trying to bug him and he knew what happened to the bosses in the Commission Case just 5 years earlier, yet he was too arrogant and stupid. If he had only talked in the Ravenite with all the music and noise drowning out his words or did the walk talks then he could have lasted another 10 years or so. Other than Gravano, none of the Gambino capos in that era ever flipped.
Why would anyone want to flip in his position? It wasn't so much about the mafia code anymore, he had to keep his own personal reputation alive. He must have known that there will be discussions, movies and books about his life even decades after he's gone and I'm sure that kept him happy even when in jail.
Getting enough support to kill a Boss in New York takes Big Fucking Balls.
Wrong.
Gotta whacked Paul out of fear. With Angelo's trial coming up and the drug dealing tapes coming to air, it was kill or be killed.
That's not balls. That's a coward.
+1 Skinny. Ego is why he didn't flip.
And yes the FBI would've taken him. Look at Massino.
so he's supposed to let himself get killed by a boss with disgruntled troops?
I guess if someone is planning to kill you, your brother, and your friends, and you kill him first, then you're a coward.
The obvious point is he did what he did because he HAD too. It was FEAR that motivated him. Not courage.
True 'balls' and true LCN would've been taking the rap. Broken down, hit, whatever. He'd broken many rules and instead of taking the rap, lashed out. He was a cornered dog who reacted. He wasn't true LCN (drugs, sleeping with other men's wife, backstabbing gravano) He was a self serving ego maniac.
The obvious point is he did what he did because he HAD too. It was FEAR that motivated him. Not courage.
True 'balls' and true LCN would've been taking the rap. Broken down, hit, whatever. He'd broken many rules and instead of taking the rap, lashed out. He was a cornered dog who reacted. He wasn't true LCN (drugs, sleeping with other men's wife, backstabbing gravano) He was a self serving ego maniac.
Let me know who hasn't broken LCN rules.
You have choices when you are threatened. Anybody would have feared Castellano. A coward would have flipped. A coward would have let his brother and friends get whacked. He did what a true gangster does when threatened. If he was self-serving, he would have flipped and done the TV and book circuit like Gravano and Leonetti.
What would you have done if you were in Gotti's shoes?
Sonny, You should have belonged to the Genovese Family. Boy, You really hated Gotti. Well, Answer Mulberry's question. What would you have done if you were Gotti? Do not make another remark until you answer the question. I want to hear your honorable answer. LOL
Well of course I'd like to think that I'd be a true believer and eat a pill like my namesake.
But most of us would hit first.
But does that make it honerable? No. Does it make it courageous? No. Does it make him cowardly for not accepting punishment for your trangressions against the boss and the family? Yes.
The point being Gotti was a self serving ego maniac who is the antithesis of what LCN is about.
Fair enough. You take the pill and commit suicide and I'll take my chances and kill Castellano, who wants to kill me over a couple of guys in my crew dealing in drugs, even though he received drug money tribute from other guys.
Like you know, like you've had to make those kinds of choices in life. Sonny, you know you're just talking big behind a typewriter. There is no God Damn way you would swallow a poison pill and commit suicide rather than defend your life. C'mon, stop all the bullshit comedy. LOL.
I guess no one wants to say it, so I will, he was just tough. Don't call me a fan girl, it's just way it is. He is not only one, many who had no egos like his still did their time. He was very tough man, and really believed, wrongly or not, in Mafia way of life.
If he offered to flip, they would have given him anything he wanted. Locascio also stood firm.
What rule did he personally break to warrant Castellano to want to kill him? How can you call the guy a rat when he went to prison and never informed on anyone? How is that a rat?
Your funny. You wouldn't put yourself in that position. Angelo quak quak put him in that position. Sure, it's easy for you to say sitting behind a typewriter somewhere. LOL.
You don't like guys who rat, you don't like guys who go to jail and don't rat, you don't like a guy who defended himself from being killed? Who do you like?
Again, what rule did Gotti himself break? He didn't even know that one or two of his guys were selling dope until it was too late.
Gotti got caught in the middle between his Boss and Angelo quak quak who they had on tape. Gotti was between a rock and a hard spot. Listen, you can say whatever you want about the Guy, but for God's sake, don't call him a rat. Call him something else. Sammy Gravano was a rat, not Gotti. You're using the wrong word. LOL.
What rule did he personally break to warrant Castellano to want to kill him? How can you call the guy a rat when he went to prison and never informed on anyone? How is that a rat?
Your funny. You wouldn't put yourself in that position. Angelo quak quak put him in that position. Sure, it's easy for you to say sitting behind a typewriter somewhere. LOL.
You don't like guys who rat, you don't like guys who go to jail and don't rat, you don't like a guy who defended himself from being killed? Who do you like?
Again, what rule did Gotti himself break? He didn't even know that one or two of his guys were selling dope until it was too late.
Gotti got caught in the middle between his Boss and Angelo quak quak who they had on tape. Gotti was between a rock and a hard spot. Listen, you can say whatever you want about the Guy, but for God's sake, don't call him a rat. Call him something else. Sammy Gravano was a rat, not Gotti. You're using the wrong word. LOL.
He had guys in his crew dealing drugs now wasn't half the other crews in the family dealing. Sure and did Paul know about some if not all I'm sure he did to a certain extent. But let's make no mistake gotti knew who in his crew was dealing. But he's no rat. And it wasn't one or two of his guys and they weren't moving a little heroin it was tons. But I agree he's no rat.
What rule did he personally break to warrant Castellano to want to kill him? How can you call the guy a rat when he went to prison and never informed on anyone? How is that a rat?
Your funny. You wouldn't put yourself in that position. Angelo quak quak put him in that position. Sure, it's easy for you to say sitting behind a typewriter somewhere. LOL.
You don't like guys who rat, you don't like guys who go to jail and don't rat, you don't like a guy who defended himself from being killed? Who do you like?
Again, what rule did Gotti himself break? He didn't even know that one or two of his guys were selling dope until it was too late.
Gotti got caught in the middle between his Boss and Angelo quak quak who they had on tape. Gotti was between a rock and a hard spot. Listen, you can say whatever you want about the Guy, but for God's sake, don't call him a rat. Call him something else. Sammy Gravano was a rat, not Gotti. You're using the wrong word. LOL.
He had guys in his crew dealing drugs now wasn't half the other crews in the family dealing. Sure and did Paul know about some if not all I'm sure he did to a certain extent. But let's make no mistake gotti knew who in his crew was dealing. But he's no rat. And it wasn't one or two of his guys and they weren't moving a little heroin it was tons. But I agree he's no rat.
Patsy Conte and the Cherry hill Gambinos were big into heroin trafficking. I'm sure there were other crews doing it too. Castellano was taking hundreds of thousands each year from the drug deals of his underlings and he knew exactly what Conte and the Gambino brothers were doing. Gotti never personally dealt drugs, but his brother Gene and the Ruggiero brothers were heavy into it along with other members of his crew.
As far as the rule about not killing or attempting to kill bosses, what happened to Anastasia, Mangano, and Costello? Does that make Vito Genovese, Chin Gigante, Albert Anastasia, and Carlo Gambino rat cowards who are the antithesis of LCN? Guys like Accardo and Ricca were behind the killings of women.
Gotti had a huge ego as do all bosses. You don't become a boss by being weak and unsure of yourself. In the end, he took his medicine and died in prison. That's LCN.
Chicago is right. Dellacroce saved Gotti´s ass from getting killed in 1982. When Dellacroce died, Gotti became fair game. It just happened (perhaps because Castellano´s hands were tied at that moment being indicted and all) that Gotti was quicker to resort to violence. We have seen in the past that in many cases when a boss was killed, the aggressor was quick to claim self defense in front of the Commission. I´ve often wondered why Gotti didn´t do that? He was certainly entitled to it. And the only answer I can think of is that the Commission, which had handled these kind of troubles in the past, was simply non-functional at the time.
Same basic thing happened in Chicago. After Ricca died in 1972, it was kill or be killed for Auippa/Cerone. They killed DeStefano in 1973. He was Mooney's top killer. Mooney came back in 1974. They killed him in 1975. They struck first just like Gotti. Welcome to the real world of the Mafia, folks.
I used the term rat as IMO Gotti's behaviour exhibited similar characteristics.
He knowingly broke the rules aware of the consequences and when the time came to accept his punishment he only thought of himself and brought down others in his stead (killing of Paul).
The parallels seem pretty obvious to me.
He was loud and obnoxious constantly drawing heat and exposure, slept with another mans wife, allowed his crew to move H, back stabbed Gravano on the tapes.
He didnt flip because of ego. His ego.
LCN is about the family. Greater good (theoretically).
John Gotti was about John Gotti.
But it appears we're running around in circles and I've said my piece so I guess we'll agree to disagree.
I don't think anybody would completely disagree with some of those points. Whatever you want to say about Gotti, he had balls to plan and take out a New York Boss without Gigante's approval and he later accepted his fate and died in jail like a man. despite ALL HIS FLAWS and mistakes, you can't take that away from him, ego or no ego. Case Closed.
Why wouldn't you guys let a huge black guy fuck you for hours? Same reason gotti wouldn't rate where I live we have some street legends who never broke, got football numbers, all those NY legends who ratted, sickening , 8 rats pointed a finger at my brother.
Not being a rat is something nobody can take from you, they can take your freedom, your life, your money, but you can be put in the ground as a man, my brother kept silent on a death penalty case, refused to testify in his own defense for fear of his words hurting others just how it is where we are from, better off dead tnen a rat, if you have hot paper work here, you will get killed x people pass out paper work at bather shops, and the person is gone in a week.
the feds would not have cut a deal with gotti. in fact both bruce mouw and George Gabriel have stated that gravano was lucky to get the opportunity to flip. They already had a lock on that case with the tapes, gravano was only brought along as window dressing ,to corobarate it. It was debated weather to let him flip. No way they offer gotti the same shot...they want to see him rot. And for all his other flaws, John Gotti stood tall and took his time. That was just in him...its who he was. you cant wipe away 50 years of indoctrinating without giving away who you are. You have to respect that.
No, gotti never would have flipped in a million years but make no mistake about it, the feds would have welcomed gotti to team america with open arms. In fact, that would of been the ultimate badge to carry, having gotti flip. Are you guys kidding ???? I dont care what monday morning quarterback shit Briuce meow is espousing , he woukd of loved for that to happen. It also would have sent the most powerful message ever. Gotti was the face of the mafia and to a certain extent, he still is.
all the gottis are stand up apart from arguably junior but then gain he did go through 4 rico trials and if he wanted to he could have hurt alot of guys that proffer session did not give up many guys feds did not deal with him because they knew he was holding back info they wanted junior on stand and he would not do that
richie senior and richie junior peter, gene even vinny who is a joke are doing/did there time
though the gottis are not the smartest guys they are stand up
all the gottis are stand up apart from arguably junior but then gain he did go through 4 rico trials and if he wanted to he could have hurt alot of guys that proffer session did not give up many guys feds did not deal with him because they knew he was holding back info they wanted junior on stand and he would not do that
A man't can't be half a rat any more than a woman can be a little pregnant. A rat is a rat is a rat. And God only knows if there's more to those proffers than the Government ALLOWED Anastasia and Alite to print. Because, make no mistake about it, the Feds can shut a book down at their own will. First Amendment be damned.
all the gottis are stand up apart from arguably junior but then gain he did go through 4 rico trials and if he wanted to he could have hurt alot of guys that proffer session did not give up many guys feds did not deal with him because they knew he was holding back info they wanted junior on stand and he would not do that
A man't can't be half a rat any more than a woman can be a little pregnant. A rat is a rat is a rat. And God only knows if there's more to those proffers than the Government ALLOWED Anastasia and Alite to print. Because, make no mistake about it, the Feds can shut a book down at their own will. First Amendment be damned.
true that is a good point its why i said it an arguable if he is a rat i personally think he is but not as bad as the rest
the other gottis are stand up he is the odd one out
The rat shit is crazy!!! The man for all his peckerhead faults lived, breathed, and died Cosa Nostra.. Also If anything in Jr book is true about the way Gotti died he was one tough fuck!! Man sat in a 10 ft cell for 23 hours a day for 10 years so calling him a rat is ridiculous!! I get the hate for what he was as a boss but a rat? No
IMO, A lot of made guys who have been arrested over the years have been because of wiretaps and bugs. The Government place these bugs virtually anywhere, in cars, Social clubs, bedrooms, kitchens, offices, restaurants, and computers and of course, phones. They have to communicate somehow. Maybe they should issue etch a sketckes or teach them sign language. But once the Feds get a whiff of that, I am sure they will find a way to monitor them. Gotti even went the extra yard by having meetings in the apartment of a widow of a former wiseguy's apartment above the Ravenite. He took precautions it was just the Feds got lucky and beat him. That's the life and the game. Like the saying from one of my favorite movies, The Big Lebowski, "sometimes you eat the bar, and sometimes the bar eats you" You can call Gotti an egotistical maniac, but he was no rat or would never entertain becoming one.He lived this shit.
Thats the way it's suppose to be. There are hundreds of guys that made the choice to stand up.
The real question is why would L/E let guys rat" and just put the same person" on the street that did the ratting.
Let out one killer just to put a killer with a hard on from the feds back on the street.
The whole thing is broke ,if you want to put them away do the work and don't let the fucking rat do the work for you ,he was just putting a bullet in someones head the week before.
Im sorry but the gotti love is making me puke...all because he didnt rat. Truthfully he was the boss so there was nobody to rat on. The guy was a piece of shit and a moron
Im sorry but the gotti love is making me puke...all because he didnt rat. Truthfully he was the boss so there was nobody to rat on. The guy was a piece of shit and a moron
no one is saying john was a good boss he was a standup guy as was all of his brothers and richie junior only junior is arguably not a stand up guy its not "gotti love" its fact
your right he is a piece of shit but so are all of these guys
even if john had been a soldier he would have never flipped e was LCN to the end this whole topic is ridiculous
"he was a boss so there was nobody to rat on"
did i hear that right a boss can give the entire organization up plus other familys not saying the feds would deal with gotti but they have dealt with other bosses joey massimo ralph natale acting bosses jimmy frantino Al D`arco and former bosses like Angelo Lonardo
the feds would and will deal with a mob boss but just not john gotti not that it matters he would never have flipped
Im sorry but the gotti love is making me puke...all because he didnt rat. Truthfully he was the boss so there was nobody to rat on. The guy was a piece of shit and a moron
no one is saying john was a good boss he was a standup guy as was all of his brothers and richie junior only junior is arguably not a stand up guy its not "gotti love" its fact
your right he is a piece of shit but so are all of these guys
even if john had been a soldier he would have never flipped e was LCN to the end this whole topic is ridiculous
"he was a boss so there was nobody to rat on"
did i hear that right a boss can give the entire organization up plus other familys not saying the feds would deal with gotti but they have dealt with other bosses joey massimo ralph natale acting bosses jimmy frantino Al D`arco and former bosses like Angelo Lonardo
the feds would and will deal with a mob boss but just not john gotti not that it matters he would never have flipped
i know all about jimmy the weasel and massino so you dont have to tell me man
disagree with PB (you've email too my friend). A rat ain't a rat is a rat.
Compare Valenti to Junior to Chiodo.
They the same?
Valenti sold his SON down the river with ZERO charges facing for a few COIN. Junior rolled the dice facing life for the FOURTH time after having one fucking proffer. Chiodo rolled because he had served with loyalty and received 15 9mm in his fat ass and his SISTER was hit as a thank you.
I read it, Sonny. And I WILL get back to you by tomorrow. There's just too much to write at this hour. But a rat is a rat is a rat .
Yet I already conceded that both George Barone and Fish Cafaro both could have hurt A LOT more guys, but didn't. So I guess I can agree that there are different DEGREES of ratting. But there's still no such thing as half a rat.
To me it's even more than that; Like what about all the dry snitching, does that count? Using the police to get rid of your enemies, is that "better" than ratting? The way I see it, the difference between a boss and a soldier is that soldiers understand the rules. Soldiers respect the rules, live by the rules, die by the rules. Create their entire self image designed around their relationship to these rules. Bosses, understand that, THERE ARE NO RULES, or more to the point, these rules are open to interpretation.... Here's two examples from my own family; I got a cousin, killed his wife, in a car, in front of his kids. Okay, then got his kids mother(she wasn't the wife) to help him get rid of the body. He trust one of my aunts with his money, while he's on the run. She , I guess decides to keep the money, and proceeds to allow the FEDS to tap her phone. Long story short, the Feds grab baby momma, threaten her with life or the death penalty or who knows what, she sings. Cousin gets arrested and he is lock stock and barrel guilty, they offer a plea, 20 years. Do you believe the guy rolled the dice and took it to trial. Got a woman judge, baaaaad, at the sentencing she asked something like," Do you want me to decide your death?". Gave him 80 years I think, his brother said and I quote " The motherfucker shoulda took tha 20 years!!!" Now he was real, but to me he was dumb.... Second example, another cousin, younger, bully, vicious guy. Lots of enemies, but widely feared, (went to jail at 14 for unloading at the police, used to torture cats as a kid, nutty fuckin guy, incidentally was my favorite cousin, go figure..) is sitting in his car, two gangbangers see him, and because he was so feared these guys make a BET! That one of em wont walk up,to him and shoot him. So, you know what, the guy walks up to him and shoots him in the neck, side, and ass, leaves the guy crippled. This is over a bet, and you know what he does, my cousin? He testifies," rats" I guess, but I guess he felt like, as a street guy, that was his only recourse for retaliation, because like I said, this was a tough fuckin guy, but a rat is a rat I guess.. For me growing up, this shit was never that cut and dry simple; I couldn't understand why my cousin wouldn't take the plea, but I know him not taking the plea enabled him to still wield power in prison, (he had a block he called shots over), whereas the other cousin got his revenge I guess, but at the expense of all his standing in the community. So I think someone hit it on the head when they mentioned image and ego, what did Michael say in godfather, my father considers himself the equal of a senator or whatever.... I'm sorry for going a little off topic, I just had to explain myself a little... These are questions I kinda been asking myself my whole life...
Sammy wasn't even window dressing. They had them BOTH dead to rights on the Cirelli tapes. The fucking Feds freed a serial killer just to embarrass Gotti. That's why you don't tug on Superman's cape. Only Frankie Loc gets my sympathy. He was a reasonable guy who wouldn't hurt you unless you were really begging for it. Life in prison for sitting on a fucking couch while another guy's mouth put you there.
Have read in Scott Burnstein's book about Detroit that Joe Catalanotte has been gathering information about drug traffickers for some time, and snitched on the French ones without implicating the Detroit mafia. For some reason, he is called by some "a true mafioso". Why, doesn't ratting on foreign allies still count as ratting, even if he spared mafia made members from his family?
you are sobering right about frank l.,, they wanted gravano as you said, plus he could hammer other guys in different crews and families. which he did..then he came back to throw shit in the Gs face by still being a criminal.. what a disaster he was for everyone! including his blood family
Thanks, Bronx. You know we came from across the street. But pre-Gotti it wasn't that big a deal. Tore grew up in Westchester. But he and I are the exact same age and he was always in the neighborhood with his Uncle Joe. His Father didn't leave Morris Park all that much. But his uncle had the club by the zoo. Remember?
Yeah, that was later, though. That place was originally Vinny A's. Then Tore got it around the time Vinny got his own crew. I'm talking about the late '70s. We were barely out of high school. Joey Loc operated out of the same spot for at least twenty years. That kinda run just isn't possible anymore.
yeah the only club Tore should have now is a nine iron..lol
Spot-on. But very few people on the boards want to believe it. Charlie from RD. He's a real good kid. Grew up around Crescent. He's in his 30's. Just old enough to remember the tail end of the Arthur Avenue that we knew. Yourself. A few other locals. But unless the Feebs take his name off their charts, some people refuse to believe it. And the truth is, Tore was never the same after the thing with the restaurant guy's son in '93. That really had an effect on the way he looked at the life.
He didn't even fucking realize what he set in motion. If he had it to do over, the other kid would still be alive and living in a nice suburb like the rest of his family. THAT was tragic. Because that kid was an innocent, no matter who his father is.
very true.. tragic.....lose a child.tough... tore had big let downs,if that sounds right, his father getting life, the beef and aftermath, scores pinch, then his last one, squeeze in jr gotti and greg nonsense...good thing he got a break with that judge and kept a ton of $ ..the G will never take his name off any chart..stays in the south he will be fine..i hope . good guy
there is no levels of ratting... if you give up information youre a rat. whether youre secretly informing, do a proffer session, or full on get on the stand and point fingers..its all the same thing. I cant stand when people say well hes not as bad as a rat as so and so..
very true.. tragic.....lose a child.tough... tore had big let downs,if that sounds right, his father getting life, the beef and aftermath, scores pinch, then his last one, squeeze in jr gotti and greg nonsense...good thing he got a break with that judge and kept a ton of $ ..the G will never take his name off any chart..stays in the south he will be fine..i hope . good guy
Agree with everything. ESPECIALLY "the letdowns." You know him, it sounds right.
Christy Tick got a compassionate release. A piece of shit rapist with more bodies on him than Frankie's entire crew. But Frankie has the Gotti stigma attached to him for life. I hope so, too. But I'd be shocked.
yeah the only club Tore should have now is a nine iron..lol
Spot-on. But very few people on the boards want to believe it. Charlie from RD. He's a real good kid. Grew up around Crescent. He's in his 30's. Just old enough to remember the tail end of the Arthur Avenue that we knew. Yourself. A few other locals. But unless the Feebs take his name off their charts, some people refuse to believe it. And the truth is, Tore was never the same after the thing with the restaurant guy's son in '93. That really had an effect on the way he looked at the life.
He didn't even fucking realize what he set in motion. If he had it to do over, the other kid would still be alive and living in a nice suburb like the rest of his family. THAT was tragic. Because that kid was an innocent, no matter who his father is.
yeah that was a really fucked up situation.. talk about a son paying for his fathers sins.. just messed up all the way around.. really shows how cut throat that life can be.
That kid was about ten years younger than I am. But I knew him all his life. He grew up in Bronxville, which is one of the most affluent towns on the East Coast. He went to private schools. He was a nice kid whose only connection to the life was his last name. Trust me when I tell you that. He had ZERO ambitions on being a wiseguy. And, believe it or not, his father never would have allowed it anyway because the kid was so close to his mother. Neither of them have been the same since. But like I said, the other guy didn't realize what he set in motion. He shouldn't have gone back to the restaurant. It was a bad judgement call on his part. He would have won at the table and the dead kid's father would have lost a stripe at the very least. He went from being right to being wrong. But it changed him. A lot.
"We only kill each other." ---- A steaming hot pile of horseshit.
thanks for the response.. yeah I could imagine the toll that took on tore knowing he set it in motion probably without knowing how it would end up.. I sure know that would fuck with my head..
the kids dad is who he is..but I cant help but think about how he must still feel to this day knowing that his actions are what wound up getting his son killed.. talk about guilt.. like I said obviously the father is who he is and is no saint.. but fuck.. talk about baggage and guilt.. must still eat him up to this day.. and everyday for that matter. still kind of crazy to me that it really went down the way it did. what was the general opinion among all the guys after that happened? Ive always been curious about that.
what was the general opinion among all the guys after that happened? Ive always been curious about that.
That it was fucked up. But that the kid's father broke the biggest rule there is. He not only smacked a made guy. But a guy who was already an acting skipper at the time. It all happened just after Gotti and Frankie got sentenced. And it came to a head less than a year later. But Frankie hadn't run out of appeals at that point, so his son was acting for him. Like I said, they would have won at the table. But Tore went back. It was a bad judgement call. But keep in mind that he was still in his early thirties at the time, a bit young for the spot, and he just lost his father for life. He'll regret it for the rest of his life. There were no winners there. But it should also be noted that at least two of the Albanian kid's family members got hit. One of them IN ALBANIA. Like I said, no winners. One of the biggest cautionary tales in the history of the Bronx mob.
Sammy wasn't even window dressing. They had them BOTH dead to rights on the Cirelli tapes. The fucking Feds freed a serial killer just to embarrass Gotti. That's why you don't tug on Superman's cape. Only Frankie Loc gets my sympathy. He was a reasonable guy who wouldn't hurt you unless you were really begging for it. Life in prison for sitting on a fucking couch while another guy's mouth put you there.
You know ,pb.,,i've benn reading u 4a short time,as long as the measly time i've been posting..& every time I read your know how on every f---- thing that u explain ,I'm inspired. I understand u r a vet poster, all i fuckin'know is the philly shit , but u have a way with everything that's goin' on around u if u don't my my saying..between u & SERP ,I don't know who's more fun 2 read..forgive me if I sound like a babe in the woods,but..I only got about 25 yrs. in this biz.. I was at scarfo's house back in 93 when i should'nt have been peekin' through the windows..Tory Scafidi, that motherfuck.. threw my women's running suit rack in to the fuckin' street back in 84'over a no exchange argument w/his little sister (i had no idea who he was at that time)..@Broad & Passyunk..& that jitbag, nicky crow,tried 2 rob me of a mere 320.00 in clothing sales money..I was just a 22 yr. old kid trying 2 make a buck workin' 4 this jew dude who set me up on the corners of certain money makin' spots w/great a rack of whatever was hot @the the time..gloria vanderbilt black denim jeans @12.00 a pop,,right out of the case .. goose down coats for 25.00..slight irregs..u remember??
Getting enough support to kill a Boss in New York takes Big Fucking Balls.
Wrong.
Gotta whacked Paul out of fear. With Angelo's trial coming up and the drug dealing tapes coming to air, it was kill or be killed.
That's not balls. That's a coward.
+1 Skinny. Ego is why he didn't flip.
And yes the FBI would've taken him. Look at Massino.
I agree to some extent but certainly NO coward
If he were that scared- he would have HID in his house like Demeo crying yo his son everyday/ sitting in the dark going pale like he did
& people say Roy had brass balls... As for Gotti, it was kill or be killed just like Demeo or any other underling that got whacked. Difference is, Gotti showed big balls to put together a hit & I'm not implying he would have done it alone
Had Frankie decicco, Joe piney & possibly Sammy n Dibee not gone along, John would have accepted his fate. He was finished either way and decided to take a gamble
& I know others are going to say "but Paul was at height of his power when he whacked Roy but weakest when he got hit" yes I know but u get the picture....
Getting enough support to kill a Boss in New York takes Big Fucking Balls.
Wrong.
Gotta whacked Paul out of fear. With Angelo's trial coming up and the drug dealing tapes coming to air, it was kill or be killed.
That's not balls. That's a coward.
+1 Skinny. Ego is why he didn't flip.
And yes the FBI would've taken him. Look at Massino.
I agree to some extent but certainly NO coward
If he were that scared- he would have HID in his house like Demeo crying yo his son everyday/ sitting in the dark going pale like he did
& people say Roy had brass balls... As for Gotti, it was kill or be killed just like Demeo or any other underling that got whacked. Difference is, Gotti showed big balls to put together a hit & I'm not implying he would have done it alone
Had Frankie decicco, Joe piney & possibly Sammy n Dibee not gone along, John would have accepted his fate. He was finished either way and decided to take a gamble
& I know others are going to say "but Paul was at height of his power when he whacked Roy but weakest when he got hit" yes I know but u get the picture....
I think you are giving Gotti too much credit. Lets be honest without Gravano and Decicco Gotti wouldn't have done a damn thing. Secondly paul was at his weakest moment as boss so he was very vulnerable.
Compare/contrast Sonny Black with Gotti. Both captains who's crew fucked up demanding consequence. One accepted responsibility and went in when called. Knowing the probable outcome and shouldering the repercussions.
The other acted out of fear and self preservation. Broke his oath to his boss. Motivation was purely self centered.
Something I found interesting, which is news to me that has to relate to this thread. Supposed Gotti actually went along with the panel thing that Castellano proposed to him? Gotti wasn't the only one who rose through the ranks and was being considered and talked about as being the next boss. Castellano also had Thomas Gambino in mind as his successor, as well as Tommy Bilotti. But to keep peace, he proposed a three man panel, Gambino, Bilotti & Gotti. But Gotti refused it and thought Castellano was mocking him by making such an offer. Pure ego obviously. But I tend to think the Gambino's would've been in a lot better shape than they were after Gotti, had Gambino had a say in running things.
Tommy Gambino being on the panel would have been a figurehead position, Sinatra. Even after Gotti olive branched Connecticut to him, Braciole was the true power there. Bilotti was a moronic goon. Had Paul suggested a panel that included either Piney or Jimmy Brown, Gotti wouldn't have been so fast to reject it because they were both too well respected. Paul gets life with the other bosses in The Commission Case, and Gotti doesn't have to worry so much about the tapes. Of course, Jimmy and Piney would have eventually killed him and put Danny in the spot, then they disband the panel, step aside for advisory roles, in favor of the younger Marino as official boss. That's always been my belief.
John Gotti was cosa nostra 100% he was a man"s man. When it came to the feds he would tell them to go & fuk themselves. John always said that there will never be another John Gotti & when im gone there gonna miss John Gotti.... John didn't flip because he was a True Gangster 100%.. !!!!!!!!!!!!!! End of story......
John Gotti was cosa nostra 100% he was a man"s man. When it came to the feds he would tell them to go & fuk themselves. John always said that there will never be another John Gotti & when im gone there gonna miss John Gotti.... John didn't flip because he was a True Gangster 100%.. !!!!!!!!!!!!!! End of story......
let me take a wild guess....you are a huge john gotti fan lol. I suggest really doing good reserach on gotti because you would see he wasnt as great as you make him out to be.
Tommy Gambino being on the panel would have been a figurehead position, Sinatra. Even after Gotti olive branched Connecticut to him, Braciole was the true power there. Bilotti was a moronic goon. Had Paul suggested a panel that included either Piney or Jimmy Brown, Gotti wouldn't have been so fast to reject it because they were both too well respected. Paul gets life with the other bosses in The Commission Case, and Gotti doesn't have to worry so much about the tapes. Of course, Jimmy and Piney would have eventually killed him and put Danny in the spot, then they disband the panel, step aside for advisory roles, in favor of the younger Marino as official boss. That's always been my belief.
I agree about the Piney and Failia thing. And I know what you mean, I think in Gotti's mind, Gambino would've just been a spiritual capo, meaning not the real power. But reading Mob Star, it seems like Castellano really had some weight in Tommy G, the book implies it was mostly because of his ability to earn, but do you think had things went down the way Castellano proposed, which may have been highly unlikely, which was him being the Carmine Persico of the Gambino's, having the final say from prison, that maybe Tommy would've had some real say in decision making? Like, if Gotti had agreed to the panel, and Castellano having final say, the way things were going it may have been Gotti going to visit him or a relative like Gambino. I'd lean more toward the relative. Bilotti, we can forget about , he was a goon and nothing more. Maybe if Paul had been smarter, Piney or Failia, either or, would've taken Bilotti's spot, and with one of those guys along with Gambino & Gotti, with Castellano serving a nearly life sentence in prison, yet still over seeing the family, I think possibly the family could've thrived a lot more than it did during the Gotti years. That's just my opinion though. Then again, I don't think Gambino was all that enthusiastic about Mafia life at the time, but continued to serve solely because he felt it was an obligation to his father, mother and everyone else before them who carried the Gambino name.
Anything's possible, FS. But if I'm living in an Upper East Side town house, with grown children who have attended private schools, to chase the Corleone-like dream of legitimicy, I'm not jumping in. But that's just me. However, if you've heard how happy Tommy is out west, I think you"d agree. The guy took up golf! lol
Happy Thanksgiving, FS. This year I'm grateful for the quality posters that are still posting here. And you're right near the top of the list.
Compare/contrast Sonny Black with Gotti. Both captains who's crew fucked up demanding consequence. One accepted responsibility and went in when called. Knowing the probable outcome and shouldering the repercussions.
The other acted out of fear and self preservation. Broke his oath to his boss. Motivation was purely self centered.
One is courage the other is a coward.
Im sure you can figure out which is which.
Completely different scenario
Yes Sonny black knew he was in trouble BUT he also knew it could go 2 ways- just like any wiseguy who gets "called in". No one in that family had experienced anything similar before- so it was all new to Sonny. He reported it to Big Paul, then got sent for within his family. Stevie beef Canone was bought along to put Sonny at ease. He trusted Stevie beef
Ok much as been made of Sonny taking off his ring & car keys and giving it to his favourite bartender BUT that doesn't mean he 100% knew he was going to die- again, plenty of guys do that routine when they get sent for and know they're in trouble
When Mike Francese got sent for & suggested to his old man they go together (accused of withholding millions) do u think Michael turned up wearing his diamond encrusted watch & million dollar pinkie ring? NO CHANCE! The only ones that turn up & then get jewellery taken from their corpse are those who were set up unknowingly (Gaspipe used to tell his hitters to bring him all the dead guy's money & jewellery)
So Sonny took a gamble & lost plus unlike Gotti (I know your suggesting Sonny accepted his fate) whereas Gotti didn't and "acted out of fear" as u like to say
But when I say different scenario- Unlike the Gambino's there wasn't 2 sides from Sonny's point of view. Well yes there was but what I mean is, he was on the one side with powers to be... Rusty, Fat Joey etc therefore it's not like he could strike out at them seeing they're his strength & power to begin with.
Gotti on otherhand was loyal to Neil & had the support to make a move against Paul- Sonny didn't have that pleasure
& I'm not sure why u are so strung up with this "Gotti done it for self preservation/ fear", isn't that what the mob is all about. Sonny black took part in the hit against Galante because Rusty was crying about losing his seat from jail.
Then Sonny took part in the 3 captains murder AGAIN to hold onto power & not let them take over. All for the GREEN is what it boils down to not to mention- they were all scared when they heard the 3 Capo's were loading up
It's a pointless argument because Napolitano was killed for an entirely different reason than what Paul was going to whack Gotti for.
If one of Chin's or Ducks's soldiers was caught on tape talking about one of them the way Ruggiero was caught talking about Castellano at that time, what do you think would have happened? They never would have seen '84 let alone '85.
Now, as far as who was truer CN. It was Napolitano. Now, I always give Gotti his due for being a stand-up guy. But he was a criminal to the core, whereas Napolitano and others were Cosa Nostra to the core.
Yes Sonny black knew he was in trouble BUT he also knew it could go 2 ways- just like any wiseguy who gets "called in". No one in that family had experienced anything similar before- so it was all new to Sonny. He reported it to Big Paul, then got sent for within his family. Stevie beef Canone was bought along to put Sonny at ease. He trusted Stevie beef
Ok much as been made of Sonny taking off his ring & car keys and giving it to his favourite bartender BUT that doesn't mean he 100% knew he was going to die- again, plenty of guys do that routine when they get sent for and know they're in trouble
When Mike Francese got sent for & suggested to his old man they go together (accused of withholding millions) do u think Michael turned up wearing his diamond encrusted watch & million dollar pinkie ring? NO CHANCE! The only ones that turn up & then get jewellery taken from their corpse are those who were set up unknowingly (Gaspipe used to tell his hitters to bring him all the dead guy's money & jewellery)
So Sonny took a gamble & lost plus unlike Gotti (I know your suggesting Sonny accepted his fate) whereas Gotti didn't and "acted out of fear" as u like to say
But when I say different scenario- Unlike the Gambino's there wasn't 2 sides from Sonny's point of view. Well yes there was but what I mean is, he was on the one side with powers to be... Rusty, Fat Joey etc therefore it's not like he could strike out at them seeing they're his strength & power to begin with.
Gotti on otherhand was loyal to Neil & had the support to make a move against Paul- Sonny didn't have that pleasure
& I'm not sure why u are so strung up with this "Gotti done it for self preservation/ fear", isn't that what the mob is all about. Sonny black took part in the hit against Galante because Rusty was crying about losing his seat from jail.
Then Sonny took part in the 3 captains murder AGAIN to hold onto power & not let them take over. All for the GREEN is what it boils down to not to mention- they were all scared when they heard the 3 Capo's were loading up
So is Sonny a coward too in that sense?
Obv its a diff scenario.
But youre missing the point. Sonny went in when called because as PB said, he was Cosa Nostra. He understood he was part of a bigger thing.
Gotti did what he did because he was all about John Gotti.
Thats the diff.
And one takes courage, the other is a selfish coward.
And DONT try and tell me Sonny didnt know he was going to get hit. In those days you could get hit for TALKING to an FBI agent. Sonny brought one into his crew, introduced him to bosses and sponsered him for his button. A Fed. And you think he didnt know he was going to get hit? Please.
First of all, I think Tony Pro was joking. Second of all, it WAS an Albanian shooter. But it was off the reservation, and he thought he'd be doing someone powerful a favor so that person would feel ingratiated to to him. He was wrong all the way around.
Yes Sonny black knew he was in trouble BUT he also knew it could go 2 ways- just like any wiseguy who gets "called in". No one in that family had experienced anything similar before- so it was all new to Sonny. He reported it to Big Paul, then got sent for within his family. Stevie beef Canone was bought along to put Sonny at ease. He trusted Stevie beef
Ok much as been made of Sonny taking off his ring & car keys and giving it to his favourite bartender BUT that doesn't mean he 100% knew he was going to die- again, plenty of guys do that routine when they get sent for and know they're in trouble
When Mike Francese got sent for & suggested to his old man they go together (accused of withholding millions) do u think Michael turned up wearing his diamond encrusted watch & million dollar pinkie ring? NO CHANCE! The only ones that turn up & then get jewellery taken from their corpse are those who were set up unknowingly (Gaspipe used to tell his hitters to bring him all the dead guy's money & jewellery)
So Sonny took a gamble & lost plus unlike Gotti (I know your suggesting Sonny accepted his fate) whereas Gotti didn't and "acted out of fear" as u like to say
But when I say different scenario- Unlike the Gambino's there wasn't 2 sides from Sonny's point of view. Well yes there was but what I mean is, he was on the one side with powers to be... Rusty, Fat Joey etc therefore it's not like he could strike out at them seeing they're his strength & power to begin with.
Gotti on otherhand was loyal to Neil & had the support to make a move against Paul- Sonny didn't have that pleasure
& I'm not sure why u are so strung up with this "Gotti done it for self preservation/ fear", isn't that what the mob is all about. Sonny black took part in the hit against Galante because Rusty was crying about losing his seat from jail.
Then Sonny took part in the 3 captains murder AGAIN to hold onto power & not let them take over. All for the GREEN is what it boils down to not to mention- they were all scared when they heard the 3 Capo's were loading up
So is Sonny a coward too in that sense?
Obv its a diff scenario.
But youre missing the point. Sonny went in when called because as PB said, he was Cosa Nostra. He understood he was part of a bigger thing.
Gotti did what he did because he was all about John Gotti.
Thats the diff.
And one takes courage, the other is a selfish coward.
And DONT try and tell me Sonny didnt know he was going to get hit. In those days you could get hit for TALKING to an FBI agent. Sonny brought one into his crew, introduced him to bosses and sponsered him for his button. A Fed. And you think he didnt know he was going to get hit? Please.
I never said Sonny didn't know he was going to get hit, of COURSE that was a real possibility BUT according to the testimony of Lino Stevie Beef was NOT told about the hit. As soon as the basement door opened Lino and another guy stopped Stevie beef going down by shutting the door and throwing Sonny down
Sonny was under the impression he was going for a sit down and YES of course he knew he was possibly going to get hit (what a stupid thing to say) sorry I don't mean that in a disrespectful way but isn't that the OBVIOUS?
If I've messed up at the office & the board of directors send for me, I would be a real dummy to turn up thinking we're going to discuss Disneyland??? Of course I KNOW I'm in trouble but at the same time I'm secretly hoping we can work it out somehow- and that's exactly why Sonny turned up
Plenty of guys have shown up for the same reasons. When the 3 capo's went to meet the other faction they decided NOT to bring arms (u telling me they thought they were going to debate global politics) ?? They damn well knew there was a death wish right there YET still went unarmed out of some BS rule about not carrying arms to a meeting
And who turned up with enough fire power to launch a small war? Sonny black & Fat Joey that's who so enough of this "Sonny was more LCN than Gotti will ever be"
Now I'm not slating Sonny- he was man enough to go to the meet & face possible death but again plenty of guys have done just that! And ALL of these guys turned up secretly hoping things can get smoothed over.
It's a pointless argument because Napolitano was killed for an entirely different reason than what Paul was going to whack Gotti for.
If one of Chin's or Ducks's soldiers was caught on tape talking about one of them the way Ruggiero was caught talking about Castellano at that time, what do you think would have happened? They never would have seen '84 let alone '85.
Now, as far as who was truer CN. It was Napolitano. Now, I always give Gotti his due for being a stand-up guy. But he was a criminal to the core, whereas Napolitano and others were Cosa Nostra to the core.
I agree, Sonny Blackstein was the one who compared Sonny to Gotti, not me but I understand why he did. His argument is that Sonny went to the meet regardless due to his LCN beliefs & Gotti is a "coward" for responding with murder
Like u said PN complete different scenarios- let me say this
If Neil was boss & Gotti was sent for ( and John knew he was in trouble) would he have attended the meet or would he have sent the Sparks shooters after Neil? I think we can all agree he loved Neil & would never make a move
Gotti would attend the meet and hope he can resolve the problem & yes gettin whacked is a real possibility. So in that sense he was just as much LCN as Sonny was
Now let's say Galante was still the boss when this donnie Brasco stuff hit the fan- do u think Sonny would have met Galante knowing Galante might hit him? I very much doubt it, he was never loyal to Galante & lets just say for argument sake Rusty sent word (his side are supporting Sonny) they're going to strip him as punishment
BUT Galante wants Sonny dead as well as a few other guys who dealt with this Donnie from Rusty's side. Do u think sonny along with his guys will meet the homicidal maniac Galante to get whacked? No chance they would have struck back so that goes the theory Sonny is LCN all the way
LCN is a myth & these guys are only LCN when it suits their purposes.
First of all, I think Tony Pro was joking. Second of all, it WAS an Albanian shooter. But it was off the reservation, and he thought he'd be doing someone powerful a favor so that person would feel ingratiated to to him. He was wrong all the way around.
I googled it Pizzaboy and it says that the guy who provided the alibi dissepeared.
Again, Tony. Mirdita WAS the shooter. I didn't realize you were talking about the cop's kid. The prosecutors said they believe he perjured himself. So not only did he lie. He lied to get Little Patsy's murderer off. Patsy Sr. and the Westside would have been happy to see Mirdita convicted. Maybe the cops killed this Aiello or snatched him up and stuck him in WITSEC. Because the kid wasn't the Saint they made him out to be.
Shawn Michaels compares himself to Sammy Gravano and Vince McMahon to John Gotti while talking about his part in the Montreal Screwjob lol.
That's hilarious. Considering unlike Gravano, right after Hart was "hit", so to speak, HBK lied right to his face and say he had no idea what was going on. That whole Montreal Screwjob thing is a story within itself. You can get the real sense of it if you ever saw Wrestling With Shadows, that Bret Hart documentary.
.