Was Big Paul a good Boss?

Disregarding his end--which isn't a reflection so much on him, I feel, as it is on the guys under him--would you say he was a good Boss? I mean, he seems like the last old school, truly old fashioned, real La Cosa Nostra Boss. It just seems like the rise of Gotti and that generation sort of ended any even pretense of them being men of honor--Like, he was the last old style Boss that could truly go back to Carlo and pre-Apalachin. And I think this direction for the Family--toward international crimes, white collar crimes, etc--if followed might've kept the Gambino Family having 500 soldiers even today.

His main fault in my opinion was not whacking out the Gotti crew. It was only because of Angie Ruggiero's big mouth that he was bugged; It was only cause of Gotti that he was killed; it was only because of Gotti becoming Boss that Gravano was able to get so high up....Really, if Paul had whacked out the whole Gotti faction, it might've kept the Gambinos going strong for another 50 years.

The Gambino Family, in New York terminology, had about 250 soldiers, not 500. In New York, that means 250 made guys.
Paul was okay as a Boss. His problem was that he lost touch with his power base and lost touch with the men on the street.
That was his problem. His business ideas were good.
Gigante hated Gotti for what he did to big Paul. He hated that Gotti raised his hand against a Boss.

Paul receives less credit than he deserved.
His view was of sophisticated racketeering, moving the family more towards systematic crime (eg unions) as opposed to street corner gambling and loan.

His was a continuation of Carlo's ethos which I think he recovers little 'credit' for.

Gigante (to correct the thread creator) was the last old school Don. If Paul had not been killed, convicted in the commission case, there is every chance the Gambinos would still be the largest most successful Borgota today, if not on par with the westside.

He was in Chin and Carlos's mould. His one fatal problem was that they managed their 'street' crews better.

Excluding that, he was very, very similar. Yet receives little respect.

Great post.

He built that ridicoulos "white house" mansion on staten island, don carlo had a nice but modest home, he shouldve learned from that. After he built the mansion he began to demand 15% from all the crews earnings when established protcol was 10% which every1 saw as just being to greedy. But theres no doubt about that he was a brillant bussiness man, i think i read somewhere that the gambino family was making around 500 million a year. But the bottom line seems to be that if wasnt so greedy and out of touch wit "the street" gotti wouldve mever have been able to gain enough support in the family to get away with what he did. And chicago when carlo died and big paul took over some estimates put the gambinos at 25 crews and 400 soldiers.

I think one of those estimates was too exaggerated, when Carlo died it might have been 250 to 300 made guys, especially with 25 Crews, average of 10 men x 25 crews is 250, plus the captains and administration.

But aside from that point, I have a bigger question to ask about New York:
1). What did a Crew receive in return for giving Paul 15%?

2). How did Paul possible know if he was really getting 15%?

3). If the Crew did not really receiving any benefit from Paul and he had nothing to do with them making money, why did they need to give him 15%?
In Chicago, the Boss made money for a REASON.

Haha very good points chicago, and the best answer i can give you is that its just the way its always been done. Made guys make money with their associates, they kick up to their skippers and the skippers kick up to the boss. I hate to compare real life to tv shows but tony soprano said it pretty good "since the begining shit goes down money flows up" or something like that. And your right he couldnt have possibly known if they were giving him a true 15 percent, he cant exactly audit them lol.

I understand the 'Organized Extortion Kick Up' but it can cause tremendous resentment if all the made guys have to kick up 10% for no real reason to a guy sitting in a big fucking house removed from everything. That's the fastest way to get killed.
in Chicago, The Top Boss had his OWN crew. He was partners with all the made guys in his crew and all the other crews were partnered with him and his guys in one way or another.

For example: The Boss's Crew would own the Company that manufactured the Poker Machines. The other crews would have those machines in their areas.

Another example: All the crews would run Bookmaking, but they would all lay off their bets to the Top Boss's Crew.

Another example: The Boss's Crew would have the best Political Connections so other Crews would WANT to partner with the Top Crew so they could have maximum protection.

Another example: Crews would work together on murder.

Another example: The Bosses would put some of their money out on the street in partnership with other made guys and expect a certain return.

The Top Boss of the Outfit had the Strongest Crew and best political connections. All the other crews would be partnered with him and his top men in one way or another for different but LOGICAL REASONS.

I think i understand the "chicago way" and it seems like great way to organize it but i just dont know what to say besides it just not the way it works in just not new york but all the east coast families. Im not gonna say one way is better than the other its just different. And i wouldnt call it extortion more like tribute.

Yes, I know it's tribute. Either way works. I think the more successful families in New York had the Bosses more involved than Paul Castellano. I think he was more of an extreme case of disassociation. That's one of the reason's why he got killed. However, Paul was more directly involved in partnership things with the other New York Bosses.

In the old days Gigante was an involved boss with his connections and some of his money. Chicago used to be allied with the Genovese Family. They were well organized. The Outfit Bosses valued their relationship with them. The Genovese's were a fucking powerhouse.

Right castellano wasn't a gangster and he didn't earn his stripes, so a lot of the street guys resented him for it. in New York where there are five families that operate right on top of each other the bosses maintain order and good relations and like you said they can make a lot more money being partners than competing with each other. yes the geneveses were definatly a force when frank Costello was the boss it was said that no1 could become a judge in the city without his approval. but then Costello started to distance himself from the street, started surrounding himself with high class people, saw a psychiatrist etc, then it was gignate that pulled the trigger on him so a more street guy like genevese could take over, I think were starting to see a patern .

big paul must have inducted 200 new members from 1977 to 1980. gotti probably brought 30 guy in his short reign 86 to 90.

I think Big Paul was a good boss in terms of how much money he brought in, but it also seems like he treated the organization as a way to make himself money at the expense of the rest of his family, rather than as tribute.

It was his thing, rather than our thing. His actions as boss are dirrectly responsible for Gotti having support to whack him, so I don't know how good of a boss he really is.

I believe it was Joe Bonanno that said the Gambino family had 400 members at it's peak. But I personally take figures before the 1980's with a grain of salt.

I'll judge castellano by how powerful his family was when he died...He was boss for what 9 years ?? Did the family fall apart in those 9 years or were they still strong as ever ?? Gotti destroyed the whole family in half that time !!

Paul wasn't nearly the negotiator Carlo was iirc

How many bosses were ??

I assume you're being facetious bit to answer your questions:

1) for protection from the family. To use the name and its power in conducting dealings. The boss being the families represente was entitled to a share from its members.
2) no one ever knows. It's assumed that members will always skim a little and it's cost of business. A member or associate is expected to go on record with his superior all his illegal activity.
3) the crew received protection from the boss.

Regards how it works in Chicago, in NY bosses don't have their own crews and don't only get tribute from activities they're directly involved in.
Your assertion that big Paul would not have gotten wacked if he did so is wrong as it is not the NY way.
Did your Genovese Chin only get kick-ups from activities he was directly involved in?
No.
Paul was wacked because tapes were about to surface indicating Gotti's crew were involved in drug dealing. And Gotti himself was in danger. If Gotti was west side and the same circumstances occurred ive no doubt Chin would've been lying face down outside sparks.
Gotti acted out of ambition and without choice. It was kill or be killed with the big seat an added cherry.

The NY system is the universal system of LCN in the US. Associates kick up to soldiers to captains to the admin.

Chicago is the exception. Not the rule.

Sonny Blackstein, Excellent Sir, of course I was being a little facetious!
Don't you think I already knew the answer!
You spelled it out very well.

Chicago is somewhat different but not a lot different. the Bosses earn from direct involvement and are financial backers in their Crew, but they also receive tribute for all the other reasons you stated.

Again, Excellent Sir, I didn't know you had it in you. LOL

I couldn't not bite.

Aside from disassociating himself from some of his underlings, Paul knew there was a divide in the family (between Neil's guys and the white collar guys) and did nothing about it. According to Gravano's book he even acknowledged it and accepted it. There was no way for him to know that it could lead to his death, but as a boss you have to make sure everyone is on the same page and is loyal to you. Paul seemed to encourage instability.

Paulie was an OK boss who desired to take the Family more into legit business,while maintaining the status quo on the traditional street rackets.Unfortunately,he lacked street sense and the respect from the troops,qualities that keep you in power.Had Gambino still been alive,Gotti and Angelo would have gone MIA,and Sammy would have probably done the work.If Neil would have let out a peep,there would have been three bodies in the hole.

Other than DellaCroce and a couple of the old schoolers like Faiella, Armone,and Gallo,nobody really gave a fart about Carlo Gambino or tradition,and as we saw,Armone betrayed Paul.

The street crews would keep giving Paul what they felt like giving him, and DellaCroce would keep letting Paul play Boss.Neil ran a huge portion of the Gambino Family,and regardless of all the talk of being a Cosa Nosa traditionalist,only kept Gotti in check so as not to interrupt his own cash flow.

For the way the family so going Paul was the right man,a good boss but not great.He learned from one of the greatest boss of all time in let Angelo and Gotti bring him down Carlos will have kill both them in a heart beat for bring all that heat on him.

I never understood why people say that Paul Castellano wasn't a gangster. Wasn't this just some rubbish propaganda by Gotti and Sammy? Paul dropped out of school at an early age, was involved in blue-collar rackets and robberies, did some time, was associating and hanging around with gangsters all his life, ordered a lot of hits and was feared. He was a street guy until he became rich and started living more lavishly, just like many other made guys with a lot of money. It's not like he was some college guy from some upper middle class family or something and accidentally wandered into a LCN family.

IMO he wasn't much different from the old school godfathers like Lucchese, Bonnano, Gambino or Profaci, it's just that he was rulling over a family few decades too late in the time of RICO and more sophisticated surveillance. Plus there was this "Goodfellas" generation of blue-collar cowboys that didn't give a shit about rules. Gotti became one of the most famous mobsters and his version of the story is the most popular one, I guess this is why most people view Castellano as a bad boss, but it's far from truth IMO. At least he had a vision and knew how a modern crime family should be run.

I was about to respond to that post but then I read this and you summed it up perfectly. Big Paul was most certainly a gangster and I would say possibly did more than Gotti did to "earn his stripes".

Good post. One could argue that Castellano wouldn't have been boss if not for his relation to Gambino, and that may have been one reason for Gotti's dislike of him, but Gotti turned right around and made his son the acting boss too.

That's a good point Ivy... it's like when mobsters use nepotism, it doesn't work out well for them.. or their families...

Castellano was out of touch in some ways but was a much better boss than Gotti.
I think a lot of the stigma about Paul is that he followed Carlo and lets face it - NO one would have ever filled his shoes!!!

True,Dellacroche would have never filled his shoes either.Hes biggest mistake was John Gotti.John Gotti was a flamboyant and flashy since day one.He even had a drug addict in his crew.

He wasn't that good if he got whacked by his own people. He was a good businessman, not a gangster. He should have moved against Gotti as soon as Dellacroce died.

That's the difference between Paul and Carlo.
Carlo wasn't afraid of upsetting his underboss
Paul was.

well said and true

He was on trial with the Demeo Crew and also indicted on the commission case he really had his back against the wall and was in no position to make a move, had to many other problems.

he could have given the hit out to chin..

When your the Boss of bosses you have to deal with these things
I don't see what the problem was?
If Paul could get rid of Demeo (eventually) he could get rid of Gotti

And most assuredly would have done so had Gotti not hit first.

Thats what im saying he obviously didn't take Gotti that seriously. Plus with the other problems he had he probably wasn't thinking to much about Gotti, he probably would've beaten the Demeo crew case so I think if Gotti didn't make his move he would have probably busted Gotti down and Killed Ruggiero and maybe Gene Gotti before going on trial in the commission case.

I think the other bosses of remaining families in New York thought he was good boss. He had a lot of scrutiny placed on him as soon as Gambino died, yet he had a good run till commision case. Killing DeMeo seems to have been neccesary, and he had it done. If he had taken care of Gotti too, a transiition after him being convicted would have gone smoothly I would think.

I know this is off topic, but since Mr. Castellano is being discussed...something has always bugged me about that oft shown photo of him lying dead in front of Sparks. What the heck is that he is holding in his hand?! (Please forgive a newbie, if this is a well documenting thing)

It is a leather glove.

Ohhhhh Thank you Mr. Knuckles.

You´re welcome Mr Dane.

The other bosses made money with him, but it doesn't mean they thought he was a good boss. What matters most is what your family thinks of you. Apparently, enough people didn't think he was a good boss that they killed him and nobody in the family did anything about it. Imagine if some renegade capos in the Genovese family whacked Gigante. All the conspirators would be dead.

That's Ms. Dane...I must need a more girly avatar, lol.

Not necessarily.

The Bergin crew was the most feared in the family (keep in mind this is post Demeo).
Going to war with them was a very serious problem.

Additionally Jimmy Brown and Marino conspired with Chin to have him removed. And who knows who they had in their pockets?

So just because Gotti wasn't hit is absolutely not indicative of a general dislike of Paul as a boss.

The other 23 crews combined were so afraid of the bergin crew that they allowed one crew to kill their boss?

The Brown/Marino conspiracy was never verified. I doubt it ever happened or else one or both would have been killed when the story came out.

1. The point is the other 23 crews were not combined.

2. The conspiracy is commonly accepted as have taken place.

Oops! Sorry about that. It´s just that females are very rare on these kind of forums.

How about Winny the pooh as your avatar?

Welcome to the boards!

Thanks, lol!

1. That's right, they were not combined because they didn't respect their boss enough to avenge his death. If guys like Carlo Gambino, Tommy Lucchese, or Gigante had been killed by a renegade crew, that crew would have been wiped out.

2. Commonly accepted by who? That was a story told by Anthony Casso and the media took off running with it despite having no corroboration that it ever existed. There were no other testimony or wiretaps to prove it ever happened. The fact that nothing ever happened to Marino and Failla makes the story hard to believe. If the Gambinos believe MArino and Failla plotted to kill Gotti, they would have been killed, demoted or shelved.

Well Gotti wasn't totally alone, he won over Frank Decicco who was respected throughout the family.
Gotti also reached out to People in the Bonnano, Lucchese and Colombo families to gauge what their reaction would be.
Not surprisingly he made no attempt to contact the Genovese!

Paul was more of a racketeer as opposed to a gangster. The 80's approached and he took the Family in a more lucrative direction. While the blue collar wing remained steeped in the streets. He also didn't help his campaign by being greedy and allowing Gigante to clip Frank Piccolo, amongst many other offenses. Still if you majored in book making, shylocking, numbers etc... you can't be mad at another guy if he infiltrates the stock markets and unions.

Was Costello really that much different than Castellano?

His biggest mistake was not declaring that he'd make Frank DeCicco acting boss if he would go to jail. If he would've done that, he wouldn't have gotten hit and it would've been way better in general for the family, as DeCicco was respected by both factions and had great leadership skills.

Just my two cents upon further reflection... I think Paul and a chance to be a good boss and by that i mean knowing how to get the most out of his people while instilling loyalty. The fact that he was more white collar crime then blue collar crime showed how the family was diverse. Instead of purposefully not acknowledging the blue collar crew (and only taking their $$), he should have tried to welcome that diversity, like any corporation (and like he liked to think of himself as a corporate leader). Where Paul I thought was weak as a leader is that he was me-first and didn't really understand his "work force." What he did to Frank Piccolo was a crime, and clearly demonstrated his lack of care for family members. I don't know if he called in and had talks with Piccolo, but he should have, or at least broken him down to soldier, before ever allowing another family to execute him. He may have been a smart businessman, but i think he was a poor leader.

Damn right.
Tommy Bilotti was a walking pitbull and no doubt was a good bodyguard but was NOT Underboss or acting Boss material.

Good point. Definitely a lot of similarities.