Why doesn't the NY mob expand?

As Lefty Guns said to Donnie Brasco in the movie, in NY you have five thousand guys chasing the same nickel. Now that most of the other families are dead or dying, why don't the NY families send crews to other cities to take over the gambling and shylock rackets? I know they're in Connecticut, Florida and Mass, but there is open country everywhere to make money.

If they can't maintain the rackets in their own backyard, what makes you think they can do it in no-man's-land?

1. They don't know the lay of the land too well and don't have connections to establish bread-and-butter street rackets.

2. Street gangs and other ethnic OC groups have beat them to the punch. Why would those group work with out-of-towners in shy-locking and traditional mob rackets when they're already making a fortune on drugs?

3. No one to recruit once they get there, gangs thrive on personal ties, people they can trust to not rat or be too greedy. Who's going to be loyal to a bunch of guys sail in to town from New York. See point 1 also. They'd have to import soldiers, weakening already weakened families.

4. They're struggling to maintain what they already have. Who's going to stretch their resources on a big gamble in an area where cosa nostra has already been wiped-out.

5. Not too many major cities have a cohesive Italian emigrant population (or Sicilian, if the family is old school) like New York does. The ones that do still have an active cosa nostra group.

It would bring down to much heat, feds wouldnt allow these guys to entrench themselves in another city.

Let's say you live in a mid-sized city that has some action. Pretend for a second that it's Rochester...or Scranton...or anything of the like.

Are you going to place your action with the small town bookie (and they're still there) that you've known for the last 20 years. The guy you can meet in the same spot, as he wears the same jacket, and has the same opening line -- or are you going to place your action with someone you've never met before? It's not like some NY wiseguy can just show up in his Cadillac and start handing out business cards. Every city has a vice. Just because LCN isn't there doesn't mean that there's not a good place to wet your whistle on a Friday and place your action for Sunday. Same with drugs, cards, numbers and about anything else you can think of. Catering to someone's weaknesses is a universal truth -- not a mafia one.

I've lived in some of those small-time areas without LCN -- Vegas, Buffalo, etc. And even without LCN, there's known people who you can drop a slip off with or use their website. Why would I change up that routine for someone who I don't know from the glory hole in the wall?

Kansas city is a gold mine ever since the bikers galloping goose were shut down. Why doesn't NYC send down some of their problem guys and get em outta their hair?

First of all their is already a Italian element handing gambling in KC. Second the Goose/el forresto's are still operating just fine out of their new headquarters. They weren't shut down, they had some administration arrested and sent to prison but they never shut down.

1. You have to start somewhere

2. Most ethnic street gangs don't deal in gambling and juice. They deal in drugs. Besides, I'm not talking about going into Gary Indiana. I'm talking about the suburbs of major cities. Those people gamble too.

3. You send a made man and a few associates. The families have a bunch of brokesters and troublemakers who aren't earning. Send them to another city to start up gambling operations. You have to start somewhere. How did those bookies get started?

4. I don't think they're struggling to maintain a hold in NY/NJ. The gambling and juice rackets there are saturated.

5. If the mob can only operate in cohesive Italian neighborhoods, then they are doomed. The Little Italy in KC is about 4 square blocks. There is no little Italy in Detroit and barely anything left in Chicago. The fact is, everyone gambles and gamblers lose and borrow money. There was no Italian community in Las Vegas and the mob had a lock on that city.

Who says they haven't reach into some of these others areas, quietly or through front people...?

That's a shame there is allot of us Italians living here in Las Vegas and your right no little Italy, no Italian community, just an Italian/American club. I know of some retired made guys living here that are from NY families, Trafficante, and LA but are like I said retired.

well from my studies kc is the best because its you got the interstate 35 coming out of Dallas (which is a growing market)I 35 goes to kc then you got the I 70 going west so you are dead center. can you imagine how many truckers pass through there. oh theres room for Italian restaurants, bakeries fuddgettaboit along them interstates. Don't forget many interstates have splits or spurs indicated with suffixed letters after passing through D/FW, I-35's two forks merge in Denton entering the Kansas City Metropolitan Area where it serves Johnson County, and Kansas City, Kansas a ramp, for cattle trucks may be found in either direction along the highway. some truck stops have 80 truckers stopping per day. your dead center the place is undeveloped it new territory. if my math tells me that there would be thousands a dollars per day to be made, you could some
machines and tables in them restaurants offering credit. youse tell me how much money could be made plus kc, may not have man power to pull off this operation.

Why would you give credit to guys at a truck stop????? Will you take my action red???

What you could do is take sports bets and run brothels.

obviously you missed the fucking point

Not to mention the dangers of expanding a family's membership- it only takes one moron, one overtly greedy guy, one dipshit to really bring masive heat down on the entire organization. Taking over a racket in distant cities would require such man power to overturn the already existing OC and building a network of relationships that you would be almost certain to get the kind of guys that bring down families.

Saint Louis has an extremely large Italian American population and no OC in the area. One of the strongest Little Italys in the nation (yeah… it's bigger than the ever shrinking Little Italy in Manhattan).

The mob is done in most cities and is never coming back . Alot of Italians have career options these days and many are going to college.

Philly is probably always going to have a mob, it could just be very small with business limited to gambling and shy . I know philly does do some garbage stuff in south jersey and that doesn't appear to be changing anytime soon.

I'm sure Chicago mob isn't going anywhere so either . I know several Chicago posters don't believe the 30 made guy estimates but I am on the side that the Feds # is probably pretty close to the right # . With roughly 30-50 active made guys , how much power can they really have today , that just isn't enough man power IMO to do alot , an as importantl put fear in people , which was the backbone of its power. They just don't whack people in Chi anymore.

NY and NJ is going to have a mafia presence for a long time . It still has the manpower to do damage and just so many different businesses to earn from ( just a by product of the area ) . They are smaller but still wield alot of power outside the gambling and shy core biz. They are still crushing it in the marajuana biz and are still common place in the garbage (more NJ from what i hear ) and union / construction businesses . Talking to my friends in those industries , their presence is still accepted and commonplace ( and in some cases valued ). I know a few low level guys in the luchesse NJ that basically only do gambling and shy and they are still making a couple hundred K a year . Nothing crazy but still a good amount of $, higher end middle class .

Yeah you do. But is it worth the risk of uprooting your man-power to "foreign" when you can make that money at home. Conneticut and NJ is close enough to be "home turf" to NY families. But moving out to Louisville or Northern Virginia is something that is going to take more than "sending a couple of guys" to get a lock on.



At legit places were they may be robbed blind, but at least they'll come out with their kneecaps intact. With legal gambling spreading to more and more places, taking down a marker "Big Sal" isn't that appealing to people who are in traveling distance to an Indian casinos and don't want to deal with street characters. The legit casino business here in Reno has been slaughtered by the opening of Indian casinos in Nor Cal and I'm sure that the effect has been the same for the mob on the east coast and midwest. Why go to "Big Sal" if you're not a desperate degenerate gambler?

And there are only so many of those to go around. New York, NJ and it's burbs are huge enough to provide demand but I doubt Pittsburgh or Denver could. New York's bread and butter is gambling and shylock, but they still make money off of drugs. Could they resist infringing on street gang or ethnic OC turf? I don't think they could, it only takes one or two greedy meatheads to touch off a war.




And drain off your crews in NY to do an uncertain venture on unfamiliar turf, see my point above, it isn't impossible but I doubt it's worth the trouble and potential conflict with people who are established there.




Yet people keep getting popped and will continue to get popped. They're already scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of guys smart enough to run complicated rackets. Why drain off the pipeline of replacements to bet on uncertain risks?



Las Vegas isn't a real typical example of a "mob town", the only racket cosa nostra there to exploit was the casino skim and shylocking that went along with it. As soon as the skim was gone the mob went away with it.

Say how is cosa nostra in KC today? Not too good is it? Same with L.A., New Orleans, SF and other places where the "little italy" have died off. Chicago is one of the examples where cosa nostra has been able to expand in to the suburbs, but they aren't your typical family in that they've always been comfortable in treating non-italians as family members.

The old little Italy (colombus park in KC) is pretty much done, however the Italian community has moved north of the river into Gladstone and North Kansas City.

i dont see any older guys or even guys in their 40s moving anywhere, leaving their families or even moving them unless their dead certain its going to be worth it. Also does anyone think any of the bosses are gonna send them help or backup if they run into trouble in their new homes?

Having said that drugs would be the easiest thing to expand with into other areas. New York is one of the biggest drug markets and hubs in the USA, they do have access to the best quality coke,heroin. They can go and sell drugs from new york and the money would be good but it also comes down to the muscle and protection of their operation, if they are not able to provide this then its just not worth the risk.
The only groups i have seen do this are ny street gangs.
Miller time bloods,NY-virginia
old bronx gang pops up in vermont

I also think it would depend on the quantity of drugs they would be selling, any major weight would attract competition.

This what i don't understand the Buffalo crime family should have been so much bigger if they would have ventured into Canada so much money to make there and work with the Rizzuto family control drugs from overseas into Canada then smuggled into the US. You have the docks as well as other opportunities . I have been outta of touch is the Buffalo family even around? Also L.A. is prime real estate for everything that too me is an avenue NY should really try to reconnect with and put effort into rebuilding that family before its extinct.

Buffalo has had a crew in hamiliton, canadafor quite some time now but seem to be very small time as of lately and the majority of mob experts have the bufalo family in the non viable category even though there are about 20 made guys still alive in the area. Some of the guys may still be active in gambling but the family as a whole seems to be defunct.

Buffalo and LA are extinct.

I now just realized that, I'm retarded lol. Thanks

skinny I am too old I had my time, however my concern is for the young guys that wanna dame and the money to have some fun with. your in jersey so nobody is gonna bother you.

1. Don't the families have crews in Florida? How is Upstate NY or NE PA any different?

2. I'm not talking about bashing people. Chicago is running their gambling rackets without making too much noise. The Indian casinos don't take sports bets.

3. There's more guys in NY than needed to run gambling operations there.

4. I'm not talking about sending top earners.

5. Non-Italians gamble too. The NY families has always used Non-Italian associates too. KC still has gambling. Dallas has gambling. New Orleans has gambling.

The families expanded to Florida, where there is no established Italian community. The Gambinos even opened a club in Atlanta and made money.

I didn't read through so I apologize, but why have like, a family send a small crew of trusted guys down to say, Texas or some of the other old territories and have them set up there? Then slowly recruit from the local pool of thugs and whatnot--as associates? You don't have to send half a family there, send like 10 guys. Not a Capo, take a good, well earning soldier, give some guys to him as a "crew" and send him out to a new territory, and have him recruit other ethnic thugs as associates, and find rackets out there, prey on the local, very local level of politics maybe, too.

For the most part, for all the reasons listed above, you just don't see the remaining mob families venturing beyond their traditional territories. The only significant exceptions are the New York families operating in South Florida and the mob's bookmaking networks reaching across various states and offshore. There's some ad-hoc stuff here and there, like the Gold Club case in Atlanta you mentioned, but that's the exception to the rule.

@DB

Chicago's mob has nobody to compete with

they can have a decent amount of influence if the 30 guys are sharp enough


@mulberry


"streetgangs" as you call them don't only deal in drugs

this ain't the 80s or 90s

believe it or not, ethnic mobs are smart enough to do white collar scams

You obviously have never been to Chicago

That's a bigger joke than the one in Manhattan

Bridgeport
Elmwood
Norridge
Melrose
River Forest
Forest Park
River Grove
Stone Park
All those are still heavy Italian areas
And the Little Italy of course isn't what it used to be but there's still Italians there and it's not completely a tourist area. I've been to Manhattan's as well. Chicago's little Italy is much better compared to Manhattan's where there is no more than 5 Italian businesses.

Yeah I know about the insurance and mortgage scams. I'm talking about gambling and bookmaking.

How many black and Latino gangs do that in the suburbs? White people aren't going in the hood or barrio for that. They will trust Italians and their non-Italian associates, who look more like them. Just like when the Italians took over the black and Spanish numbers game, they still had to use black runners and Puerto Rican bodegas.

I'd say heavily is quite an overstatement. List the % of those populations that are Italian. I bet 5-15%.

Anyway, my point is that you don't need heavily Italian areas in order for the mob to exist. What you need is white people who gamble

There are plenty of white people who gamble in Chicago. Many of the placed I listed are over 20-30%. Take a drive down the places I mentioned, Italian flags and businesses everywhere.

The census bureau doesnt agree. There could be some small enclaves like that but not overall

Bridgeport has not been heavily Italian in 30 years. Most of Bridgeport and the surrounding area is black. There is a small enclave of Irish/Italian in Bridgeport. Melrose Park and Stone Park are predominantly Mexican now.

Elmwood Park is still heavily Italian. Norridge has plenty of Italians but is mixed. River Forest and River Grove are mixed, but still have plenty of Italians. Forest Park I have no idea.

Other areas with a lot of Italians are the NW burbs, like Palatine, Des Plaines, Arlington Heights, etc. although these are newer areas, so the dominance of any group is not really there.

2. Actually most of the Chicago oriented gangs are involved in some gambling. But mobsters wouldn't have to worry because the gang members kept the gambling (dice games,dog fighting, card games) to their local area. I have NEVER heatd of any street gang involved in bookmaking. I read about BGF in Cali been involved in bookmaking though.

Bridgeport is much more than a small enclave of Irish and Italian. The whole neighborhood. And the census bureau may not agree but I'm sure you've never even been to Bridgeport so don't act like you know what it's like.

You are right about stone park though. The Italians are still politicians in stone park. Mexicans are sadly taking over some of the good Italian neighborhoods.

homewood
chicago heights
south chicago heights
lansing
thornton
and a few other spots have a decent number of italians

Casabella, Benito 1, Ferraras, caffe napoli, cafe palermo, spqr, la nonna...... More than 5. Sorry nicky, your a liar. Is that gun shop still there? I forget its name.... Its ch*nk owned now.... just another tourist shop, but the big ass gun sign is still there. Theyre hoping some yokel from arkansas saw meanstreets and walks into their store hahaha

John Jovino's yeah, plus maybe half a dozen delicatessens, a few other little things, Bari restaurant supplies, but yeah almost all Chinese now

Casabella, Benito 1, Ferraras, caffe napoli, cafe palermo, spqr, la nonna...... More than 5. Sorry nicky, your a liar. Is that gun shop still there? I forget its name.... Its ch*nk owned now.... just another tourist shop, but the big ass gun sign is still there. Theyre hoping some yokel from arkansas saw meanstreets and walks into their store hahaha[/quote]
When I was there all I saw were two pizza places, a bakery, and the Church. Might be more than 5 but not much more than that.

we dont want you fuckers here anyways, none of you know how to drive

Chicagoans are good drivers!

your to slow! if you dont have ny/nj liscense plates ill tailgate u, cut u off, go slow, honk at u then give you the finger... Hoping you will go homr to chicago saying to ur friends "dont ever drive in ny theyre fucking crazy!"

They honk before the light even turns green!

It's why the mob is into sports betting the most. Mainly white clientele.

the syndicate didn't have policy for long in Chicago

the stones and disciples weren't allowing that on the southside

then they legalized policy into the state lottery

They had it for about 20 years in Chicago and about 50 years in NY.

Agents still take policy in ny/nj. Even the suburb guys do.

like you siad ny guys ar ein florida, new jersey, CT and MA already.... but be real gambling aint as big as it used to be, and loansharking aint what ti used o be... yeah they got slot machines in some of thier klow key clubs... and they got the few knuckleheads dumbenought o borrow money from them but th emajority of people would just go toa casino a racetrack, or get a loan from a someone familiar or do it the legal way.

That's part of the reason why sports betting is the biggest money maker for the mob. It's still illegal and hasn't been cut into the way other forms of gambling have.

and for shakedowns most restaraunt owners would just call the law, and most drug dealers got just as many bad motherfuckers in thier corner as the ones doing the shakes.... they still gotstrip clubs though.

thats true.. and most of them got there betting offices and phones in the carribean like dpomincan republic puerto rico etc... some in florida

Adult businesses like strip clubs and porn shops are still favorite targets for extortion. Also companies involved in industries where the mob still has union clout, i.e. construction, trucking, waterfront, etc. And even in recent years there have been examples of mob shakedowns of restaurants, nightclubs, lunch truck vendors, etc.

Thats treu, i cant even tell ya how many guys around here either have no show jobs with the uions or use there union job to legitimize thier earnings.... but at the sae time alot of the dealers aound here are blue collar guys in the union nd they go to work and make a paycheck n the jobsite put also push thier goods during the work day.. knwon fact.

alot of the younger wiseguys around here r actually apart of the teamsters and drive around movie starts when they film movies in boston haaaha.. one of them is duilio 'lelo' fabbo. low level guy.