Why did Italians and Irish hate each other?

I'm 50% Italian and 50% Irish on both sides (both my parents are 50/50), so you might say I'm 100% Italian and 100% Irish lol.

When my father's father (Calabrese Italian) first married my grandmother (Irish), all the neighborhood ladies were dressed in black and came to his mother expressing their sympathies, as if he had died rather than had gotten married--and this was in the early '50s. To the Italian ladies of the neighborhood, him marrying an Irish girl was equivalent to him dying; it was a massive shame.

On the other hand, all my grandmother's Irish friends referred to him as "The Black Phantom" due to his dark hair and dark complexion and the way he'd come and go.

On the other side, my mother's father (Neapolitan Italian) got married to my grandmother, his family hated it. All his brothers had married non-Italian girls and they were all equally disliked.

My Irish Great Grandfather told my grandmother that Italians were "inside out ni**ers", and if this was the old neighborhood, the neighborhood he grew up in, she'd been an outcast at best and beaten up at worst for being with an Italian. He refused to pay for her wedding because she married an Italian. This was the late 1940s.

Why was there such animosity and mutual contempt between Italians and Irish people?

They were both at the bottom, fighting each other for the scraps.

I think that there was no hatred.The point is the irish ppl at begining were big time,after that the italians just took over,and thats that

The Irish men tended to be loud mouths and liked to drink a lot. The Irish women were nicer AND many Italian men married them because sometimes opposites attract.

If you're talking about the Gangsters, The Italians wanted to take over and had much greater numbers of men who were smarter and more cunning. An Irishman could never be as cunning as an Italian. LOL. Obviously, the Irish were no match for the Italians. The Irish were better Cops and Politicians than Gangsters.

I'm not so sure there was all that much actual hatred. All o f my brother in laws referred to any non Italian as Irish. As w3as pointed out above, there was a lot of competition for the almighty dollar. and yes- a lot of inter nationality marriage

Nicely said

Irish tend to be feisty as hell about everything.

The pretty Irish girls went for the good looking romantic Italian guys named Tony and Joey over some Irish Loud mouth with a beer in his hand. LOL.

Generally speaking Irish immigration took place quite a bit earlier (early-mid 19th century) than Italian immigration (late 19th century to early 20th century), so the Irish probably resented sharing the neighborhoods with southern Europeans while they themselves were still trying to break into the WASPy mainstream of American society. Seems silly to us now, but even being Catholic meant you were not a "real American" for a very long time in this country; the Anglo-Saxons dominated the power structure for generations.

Reminds me of a scene from The Good Shepherd, directed by Robert DeNiro and starring Matt Damon. This is the only clip I can find on YouTube and you have to read the subtitles.

Great movie. Here's the full thing - http://www.sockshare.com/file/015B5253C34A8B6D

Cool scene, and thanks for the link to the full film, I'll check it out.

Joe Pesci not looking bad!

An example of what I'm talking about would be what we now call Cabrini Green in Chicago. Back in the mid-late 19th century it was an Irish ghetto called Kilgubbin. Then they moved on and it was a Sicilian ghetto called Little Hell. They built the Cabrini projects for the Sicilians but in the 40s blacks started moving in and the Sicilians cleared out within a few years, then it was the notorious black project Cabrini, which is now almost closed down as well.

I guess it's safe to say that tensions will often exist between new poor immigrants and the natives only a little better off than them when they are sharing the same space.

I don't see any indication they were better at either. They got into police departments as they formed, and they had advantage of speaking English. I don't see either as "Better" than the other. at politics or policing.

It's an inside Chicago Joke. The POINT is that the Irish were more successful as policemen or politicians than they were as gangsters in Chicago. Don't read too much into it and start over analyzing every word. LOL

As far as irish organized crime goes, they did't even challenge the itallians for the rackets, they fell in line and started working for them, if the irish would have maintained contact with gangsters from ireland and organanized irish in all cities they would be a force, now is a good time for them to take the rackets back because the itallians are weaker and they don't want problems

what exactly do you mean when you say them? the only place that even has something that resemblance an "irish mob" is boston and ever since the fall of whitey bulger theyre in much worse shape than the Italians. and also have you ever heard of the white hand gang from the early 1900s? they formed to compete with the growing black hand gangs but in the end the Italians were much more organized than the irish.

Nowadays Irish Mob = Real IRA. Ruthless basterds who'd cut off your head with a shovel (yes, that really did happen once). But unless you're in a Sons of Anarchy universe, they aren't active in the USA.

There's also the historical angle as well. The Celts were effectively squeezed out their ancestral homelands (the area the is roughly Switzerland today) by a pincer movement of the Romans eastward and Germanics westward expansions.

Italians and Irish discriminated against each other as they immigrated to the US since, as noted above, they were at the bottom of the barrel and discriminated against by the other Western European immigrants (Germans, English, etc).

St Louis is a very good example of the dynamic. Kerry Patch was the Irish section on the north side and the Hill was the Italian section on the south side. The Irish came first and they held political office and controlled the police department. Of course, the Irish has OC.

The Italians arrived and by the 50's, had largely wiped out the Irish OC elements and taken over the rackets. They also entered politics.

My Irish grandfather discriminated against anyone who was not Irish - he was an equal opportunity hater. I believe it was a way of life back then, and due to ignorance. Suburbia brought the different ethnicities together, and played a role in reducing the discrimination and assimilation.

Today, Kerry Patch is a ghetto as all the Irish left to the suburds. The Hill is a very nice neighborhood and largely Italian.

BTW - my grandfather's racism was not limited to Europeans. When my uncle came home from WWII and had nightmares and trauma from his experiences as a marine fighting the Japanese in the Pacific, my grandfather developed a hatred for anyone Asian, and referred to them all as "dirty japs". Did not matter if they were Chinese or Korean, they were all hated. Ignorance at its very finest.

The Irish held on to East St.Louis and had peace with the Outfit. Strangely enough Raymond Flynn was considered the most dangerous racketeer in St.Louis and he ended up blasting his way the top in St.Louis aided by the Syrians.

The Irish had a strong presence in St.Louis until the mid-80's. They always had East St.Louis anyhow wver since the days of Buster Wortman. They had peace with the Outfit or St.Louis/KC crime families whatever the fuck they called themselves but nobody wanted to fuck with Flynn and that was one Irishman who fought his way to the top and took his place at the top of the union he felt was rightfully his. Whether it was or not he took it.

Remnants of the Syrians is all that exists of the old OC in St.Louis and even their interests probably mostly legit now.

One other thing, no-one pulled a heist like the Irish, yeah the Italians had the organisation and the Irish had that too in certain parts with political connections and union ties but usually aligned with the mob in one way or other.

Yeah, The Italians were pretty smart but where full blown precision stone cold full blown action is concerned nobody pulled a heist like the Irish.

I think the IRA pulled off the last biggest one in the early 00's and as far as Canada and the US is concerned they had a hand in and planned all the biggest heists of the 20th Century and the biggest of the 21st.

Who is "the german"?

Hes a "character" someone created who was supposedly the boss of the philly irish mob and the genevese family consigliere lol. Kinda like the tufar o brothers, strpes demarco, and charles gotti

Wow! Hahahaha

The Italians liked the Irish women. They just didn't like the loud mouth heavy drinking men. LOL.

My fathers italian and mothers irish and they hate each others guts now but i guess they must've liked each other at one point lol

"It's an Irish bar where it's St. Patrick's Day forever and ever. That's our hell." - Chris Moltisanti

Probably a spoof of Kripplebauer, the guy who with Alan Hornblum wrote the book about the K&A Gang. Great read actually, there are lots of pics with him and well known OC faces inside the walls so who knows how much he said was fact.

It sure was entertaining though, especially the bit where he and his buddies from North Carolina were seconds away from blowing away some big cheese Ginzo and his Philly goons in some restaurant somehwere.

Claims also to have offered to supply the Boston mob with coke and meth before the Boston and Philly mobs eventually got busted on that move.

Apparently the dispute was due to Dolan's card game in North Philly. Some wiseguy or made guy tried to make them pay a tax but the North East Philly mob didn't see it that way. It was their town too.

Yeah, they are pretty small time, were pretty big once in the meth trade but still have pride and from what I hear the cops pretty much let them get on with their sports booking businesses and low level bullshit and what remains are pretty much under the radar.

More a loose network of old affiliates with a few young guys hanging around than a truly organised crime presence but there is some kinf of Irish presence in the North east including some very respected criminals.

Always a big association between the IRA and the Irish Philly mob too.

The Russians are by far the biggest organised crime presense (though they are not all one organisation, many are split into six or seven separate groups including the Poles who speak RUssian and have a little but of turf in Port RIchmond)in Philly in my opinion.

Followed by the Italians in South Philly most likely. The Irish in the North East are pretty low level but they make a buck and are still around. The Cops are very buddy buddy with em too so what they have going tends to stay under the radar, not that they're into anthing big time right now, but they're definitely still around, call them remnants with a few young punks rather than OC if you want but they are still around.

Well unlike some of these names "The German" is a real dude. Probably not involved in OC on any real level. But he does exist. Appears to be a pretty legitimate business type guy from what I gather. Raised in Philly seems to divide his time between Florida and NYC these days. So while probable, it's very unlikely that he's connected.

The hearsay seems to have begun on some forums by apparent locals. I've looked into it a bit, even had a thread around here. All I can say is there's nothing to make me believe he was of any consequences in the underwolrd. But who am I to say.

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In regards, to the OP. In early 20th century America resources were slim in the ghettos of early immigrant populations. It wasn't that they hated each other. It's just that tensions were result of this and other cultural differences. As far as OC goes, the Irish were never really all that organized. They assimilated much easier into WASP culture too. They used the support group of the cop, the gangster, and the politician to make their way. Whereas teh Italians had mostly the mob as a way of tradition and keeping the peace. In that way they were far more insular and attrition of the criminal lifestyle came slower.

In teh end the irish mob is more like a network of freelancers, fickle temporary alliances, united by a domineering figure. When that figure died, they were prone to fight amongst themselves. It was a criminal culture of the individual. Prone to dysfunction

The Italians on the other hand had the family. Both criminally and culturally. It was important. One man's life was nothing in comparison to maintaining tradition and order within the family. It was a model that worked well for them. Keep them strong and functioning like a well-oiled machine.

Yes totally agree with your view on the irish oc, as for shundler its kinda like micheal tufar o who someone made up about him being the boss of new orleans, he is also a real person down there who owns some legitimate bussinesses but has no oc connections. It seems when some1 wants make some bullshit up like that(for a reason i can possibly fathom), they figure if they choose some1 real and from that community people will b more inclined to buy into it. Yes the phildelphia irish mob thread on this site is a great way for someone to waste a lot of time and not really gain any new information, in case any1s interested lol.

The Irish were the first Catholic group to immigrate to America en mass, and they suffered vicious discrimination because of it. But, while many settled the land, even more settled in cities, and over time, they gained control of municipal politicls and controlled services like police, fire, sanitation, etc., when appointments of cops, firemen, etc., were made through political patronage. Irish priests also controlled the Catholic diocese of most cities and appointed pastors and administrators. So, when Italians immigrated to American cities later, they found themselves constantly having to compete with the Irish for the basics. By the time Italians swarmed to America, Irish were already well established (though by no means free of discrimination), so the Italians were on the bottom--and suffered even more discrimination. Most American bigots (and there were plenty) refused to consider them "white." That added to the friction beweeen Irish and Italians.

In my old neighborhood in Brooklyn, we had a riddle"

Q. How does the newspaper article reporting on an Italian/Irish wedding begin?

A. "Among the injured were..."