what is the use of a consigliere?

Does any boss really take advice from his consigliere anymore? Back in the old days, you had wise olders guys like Accardo, Joe N Gallo, Piney Armone, Tommy DiBella and Paul Ricca as consigliere, which made sense. They had been made for decades and were in semi-retirement and respected by most of the family. Recently, guys like Gravano, who was only 41 when he was made consigliere. The Luccheses had Casso and then Frank Papagni, who was 36 years old. These were all greedy, impulsive, hotheads who were quick to pull the trigger.

To solve sit downs. Never heard of the advice shit

Yeah. Skinny is correct. The consigliere´s main duties was (it´s been watered down the last 20 or so years it seems) to protect the interests of the members of a Family. He was a counselor to ALL members but the boss and because of his position within a Family (he was supposed to be elected to the position by the members) he was often used to solve sitdowns between captains. I´ve said this thousands of times on here. I´ll say it again; he was not an advisor to the boss. Think about it for a while, what boss would allow himself to be manipulated by taking advice from a powerful figure within his Family?

The consigliere giving the boss advice in different matters may be one of the greatest myths of the American Mafia. It probably originated from Mario Puzo´s works.

Vic Amuso lol

i've never heard of consigliere resolving sit downs. don't they go to the boss for that? what if the boss doesn't agree with the consigliere's decision?

Part of the confusion comes from the fact that consigliere translates into counselor or advisor and people assumed that it means "to the Boss". The way I understand it,because of numerous abuses by Bosses from the Mustache Pete days,the Organization thought it would be wise to have a person who would serve as sort of a court of appeal for the rank and file guys.

Since the Underboss isn't going to make waves,and no Capo would have the authority,(or the stones) to challenge a Boss's decision to whack one of his guys on a whim,the consigliere is supposed to serve as a check and balance against that sort of thing.

Like a lot of Mob policies,it's not 100%,but generally,the spot goes to someone who is seen as level-headed,and loyal to the Family,not necessarily the individual Boss.

You´ve got a point, Benny! lol



If a sitdown can´t be resolved by the consigliere, the matter is brought in front of the boss.

If two connected guys who are on the record with made guys have a beef, the sitdown will be between the two soldiers they are connected to. If the matter can´t be resolved, it will be brought to the captains. If two soldiers have a beef, their captains will sit down. If the matter can´t be resolved by the captains, the consigliere will sit down. If two captains have a beef, the matter will be brought in front of the consigliere. Usually the consigliere has enough juice to resolve the matter, if not, the matter will be brought in front of the boss (or underboss who acts for the boss).

This is how it was suppose to be anyway, according to tradition.



Very good post. Spot on. And keep in mind that the captains are handpicked by the boss and can be reomoved by him at will. So they are basically dependent on him. The consigliere however, is elected to the position by the members, hence the authority within the Family.

Also, could the role of the consigliere vary from organization to organization? New York may operate in a different manner than Chicago or Tampa, etc. And the strength or power of the individual could possibly play a role. Some may be more respected than others and have more influence, and some may have stronger personalities.

Something to think about.

Rumours go that the position was invented by Luciano.Luciano, in an attempt to establish peace within the organization,knew most trouble started with underlings trying to get ahead.He ordered each crime family to establish the a consigliere,a neutral middleman who would settle disputes within the family and act as a negotiator with the other families in disputes such as over territories.The consigliere would act as a hearing officer,one who would have to clear any plan to knock off a Mafia member.He could also forbid a hit if necessary.This was to give the lower rank members a sense of protection from the unjust acts of a family boss or any of his capos.A consigliere will not go against the edicts of a boss or other superior.To do so would be a death wish for the consigliere. Even in those cases when a consigliere is allowed to rule on a matter with no interference from above, his decision may end up ignored.
As Hairy said its more glamorous in books and movies, the consigliere job is most likely a dead end job.

I read somewhere that the Consigliere was voted on by the captains back in the day and he was responsible for not only internal disputes but issues with the other families as well.

Exactly. When people think of Consigliere they think of silvo's big dumb face

I think of paul ricca and tony accardo when I think of consigliere

probably the best tandem in mob history

Maybe Phil Leonetti doesn't know what he's talking about because he says the consigliere's job is to give advice to the boss. Then again, he was only the underboss of Philly. What does he know?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwD-r1sPa3g

forward to 6:22

Think it is kinda obvious philly and chicago are different from ny. If you were so certain of your answer why the fuck did u ask the question? Consiglieris arent tom haggens. U think jimmy ida told chin how to run his family? Well then again ur probly one of the fuckin retards that believes ida was ever even the consiglieri. Mulberry street my dick, go pass off some more of that lame ass inside info u got u fucking google gangster. Cant stand this fucking shit

Giving advice and giving orders are different. Look it up in the dictionary.

advice: Opinion about what could or should be done about a situation or problem; counsel

order: Give an authoritative direction or instruction to do something

You have a comprehension problem. Go read my original question. You're just throwing a temper tantrum because you were embarrassed. Grow up.

Skinny, check the tough guy attitude at the door when you come here and stop flaming.

Yeah everyone needs to take a deep breath! Whats up SC you chillin like a villain

Leonetti´s description is probably out of convenience. In that section, he says what people want to hear. You should take most mob documentaries with a grain of salt because they are produced for the masses and very often a simplified version of the truth so the viewers can understand its contents. I have yet to see a fully truthful mob documentary somebody can learn from.

Mully, what good is giving the boss advice if the boss don´t listen? If he starts to listen, he will then get manipulated into doing things he may not want to do and by that, will loose authority which is a boss´s worst nightmare.

Toddo, Luciano did not invent the consigliere position. Masseria had Sam Pollaccia in that position long before Luciano took over.

I like the way you say things like thouse are the REAL fact.You should start learnin the word "RUMOUR" or "MAYBE",it's very useful belive me.Pollacia didn't necessarily have to be a member of Masseria's Family.He had ties with D'Aquilla and could have been the leader of the faction of that family that stayed loyal to Joe the Boss.I know youre goin to say that the feds translation of Gentiles manuscript says that he was Masseria's consigliere, but im not sure this means the position of consigliere.He was also questioned about the Masseria hit because there are some RUMOURS that Masseria was lunching that day with Pollaccia,who by that time maybe he might have risen as underboss.It might be that Pollaccia was just a trusted member...but who knows...

Ida, like Manna before him, is a good example of what's been the real role of a consigliere; at least in more modern times. It's not really an older, semi-retired guy giving advice to the boss. Nor is it even really a guy voted on by captains who presides at all sit downs. It seems the boss pretty much chooses whomever he wants for the position, and the title notwithstanding, they continue to be directly involved in running a crew or faction of the family. To put it simply, functionally they are more like a captain but hold a formal position in the administration.

Gentile knew.

and.... You

sometimes advisors call the show

a consigliere can have as much power as they're willing to go for

it's just a title

And now, you too.

and.... You [/quote]

And now, you too. [/quote]


Now you r actin like a kid,i though we had a civil conversation....for shame,commin from a 40 year ol........guy ......

EDIT: And stop callin ppl by your very stupid style of givin names....you can read right?type our nicknames like the way they r.peace

Im with it... nice post

Just wondering: Do any of you have first hand knowledge or personal experience with whom would be considered a Consigliere?

Toddo, if you can find any other source with insight on Pollaccia´s position within the Masseria Family other than Gentile, be my guest. Until then relax buddy and enjoy this forum like all the rest of us. If you find my way of nicknaming other posters on here upsetting, you need to loosen up. Don´t be so obtuse!

LIsten here pal,im not your friend so stop callin me "Toddo",you HairyPussy,half of the ppl here dont like you,even on the other forums as well so....pls change your act and start havin respect for ppl around here,if not...you know...get the fuck out!!cheers

I like you and Hairy and i think you both bring completely different and appreciated things to the site. However i think what you've said here is untrue and unnecessary Hairy contributes massively to this site especially regarding the 20s-70s era.

Either you two guys get a room somewhere or I'll find one for ya (far away from the boards). Act like grownups and stop this shit!!

Thank you Cam. That´s nice of you to say. Most posters contribute a lot to this site. You are one of them. I enjoy reading your posts. Keep it up!

Some info i found on Pollaccia's adventures and RUMOURS....

Joe the Boss” was violently deposed in a Coney Island restaurant on April 15, 1931, and the legends say “Lucky” Luciano set him up. During a private card game with the boss, Luciano supposedly stepped into the bathroom just as a team of handpicked assassins entered the restaurant. Various underworld figures have been named as participants in the assassination, including Vito Genovese, Joe Adonis, Albert Anastasia and Benjamin Siegel.

The legend, however, turns out to be generally untrue. The boss was known to be lunching that day with Sam Pollaccia, who by that time might have risen as high as underboss or consigliere(me:it is not known) in the Masseria organization.

Other Masseria lieutenants might have been present, including Luciano. But it was far from a Masseria-Luciano tкte-а-tкte, and no reliable account of the period mentions the tale of Luciano’s conveniently timed trip to the bathroom.

As Brooklyn detectives tried to get to the bottom of Masseria’s assassination, they are known to have brought Pollaccia in for questioning. Pollaccia denied any knowledge of or involvement in the killing.

Some years later, when the Kings County district attorney’s office probed the Murder, Inc., organization, it discovered a report that Pollaccia and a small group of men were with Masseria, as “Johnny Silk Stockings” Giustra entered the restaurant behind Masseria and shot the boss to death. None of the other men in the restaurant apparently did anything to interfere with Giustra, who by himself easily could have delivered all five slugs found in Masseria’s body.


Giustra was a Brooklyn labor racketeer and possible rival to the organization of Vincent Mangano and Albert Anastasia at the Brooklyn waterfront. Less than a month after Masseria’s killing, Giustra was found dead in a Bronx apartment building.13 If that killing was related to Masseria’s death rather than to labor racket rivalry, it could be interpreted as an effort by Mafia leaders to remove an individual who linked them with the boss’s assassination.

Salvatore Maranzano, victor of the Castellammarese War, assumed the title and responsibilities of boss of bosses of the American Mafia in April 1931. But he, too, was assassinated, gunned down in his Manhattan offices on Sept. 10, 1931.14 The old group of anti-Masseria conspirators looks to have been involved in that killing as well.

source: http://www.onewal.com/a018/f_pollacciap04.html

The top positions within the Masseria Family in and around the time of the Castellammarese war is actually crystal clear. Gentile mentioned Pollaccia as Masseria´s consigliere so there is no doubt about Pollaccia´s position. I have the passage right in front of me. Other sources, Gentile, Valachi and Bonanno included, mentioned Pepe Morello as Masseria´s underboss.

Toddo, close to all info (if not all) you can find on the NY Mafia in and around the time of the Castellammarese war is derived from Gentile, Valachi and Bonanno. Those are the "mothers of all sources" and serve as basis for all (accurate) articles and books you may find on the subject. (NY Mafia Castellammarese war.)

The role of the Consigliere in Chicago was different than in New York. Just like the structure of The Outfit was different than New York. In Chicago, The Consigliere had tremendous power and respect because he was the former Top Boss of the Outfit or the Former #2 Boss of the Outfit (Ricca & Accardo). They very rarely settled disputes among members. They gave ADVICE and used their political connections to help the Current Top Boss make intelligent decisions.

tony accardo and sam giancana had the same agreement with ricca

ricca was consigliere and held the power

accardo and giancana were the "top boss" aka the fall guy

ricca and accardo stepped in when the southside 1st started killing each other

Cook County, How are you? I have my hands full debating with a couple of these New York Fan Boys! LOL! Anyway, I kind of enjoy it. Well I agree with you, but not completely. Ricca was the former Top Boss and then became a Consigliere. That's true. However, Accardo was never the Top Boss of The Outfit. He was the #2 under Ricca, THEN he semi-retired and became co-consigliere with Ricca when Giancana became the Top Boss. Accardo then wanted Cerone to be the #2 under Giancana, but Mooney refused. That was my understanding from my Uncle.

You're back a few hours and you're starting the same old shit already. One warning. DON'T!! You won't be warned again.

SC, It was a joke Because when I was gone I saw a lot of debating happening. Don't worry there is no problem. You've got to expect SOME debating on the forums> Right? I'm not the only one who gets into debates. Ivy and Skinny and Caramel are big debaters. I really don't see it as a problem but I will adhere to your warning. Again, It was a joke.