crip kills blood

Every two hours.

You could probably have a daily post/thread just about the chicago killings if these worthless street gangs and prison gangs are now considered organized crime and worth discussing about on gangsterbb.

Compare the complexity, organization and longevity of real organized crime (ie Italian Mafia, Russian Mafia, Mexican Cartels, South American Distrubtors) compared to these morons that kill each other over colors or shank eachother in prison . There is no comparison

Still, they must have at least some power. I remember reading an interview with the American-Russian gangster Monya Elson who didn't really have much respect for the Cosa Nostra and said the power of the crips and bloods is growing, at least in prison, and that they don't respect Italians at all. However, I don't know how credible, if at all, he is.

Who gives a shit if a gangbanger doesnt respect the lcn. It does not matter. These guys are into drugs, thats it!. The LCN is into labor racketeering, the utter take over of labor unions throughout the biggest city in country. Its just way more complex.

Respect vinnie

If I had to choose id much rather be an lcn connected mobster then a crip/blood connected gangbanger.all the crips/bloods In my town flip flop like a fish out of water.sumthn like 1in4isa a known informant and most have NO MONEY AT ALL.at least most mobsters make some money

As far as street gangs, there a trail mix in the underworld. But why don't you consider prison gangs to be organized crime? If I recall correct that the Russian underworld traces it root back to prison and I think the Camorra as well.

Well Monya Elson was himself almost killed by the Italians until Danny Pagano stepped in and saved his life, so I don't know how much his opinion is worth. Until the LCN got hammered badly by the feds in the early-to-mid 90s the Russians were always junior partner to the Italians.

Black street gangs not respecting the mob seems a little farfetched considering their tendency to flock by the dozens to anyone who has any semblance of "rep" on the street.

Guys like Wild Bill Cutolo, Scarpa, Vinny Basciano, Gaspipe, Gotti, Gravano, Joey Merlino etc, could have had themselves an army of gangbangers if they went on a recruitment drive. Why the fuck would they do that though?

thats probably one of the biggest exaggerations of the mafia i have ever heard.i agree that theres probably a little respect for them just due to all the well documented history and movies etc i doubt it extends much beyond that.

John gotti assault aside there are a number of examples of street gangs not really giving a fuck about mob guys.

cleveland mob associate mike roman was killed by a gang member.

A luchesse soldier asked for the help of a blood gangmember when an italian was being shaken down by another blood in new jersey.

Lewis Kasman hired a latin king gangmember to assault a mob associate in prison.

Carmine persico got punked in prison once when a black gangmember and his friends sat down and ate at the lunch table that persico usually ate at.

Mob Boss Loses Food Feud

Since 1985, while he's been behind bars at one prison or another, Carmine (Junior) Persico has managed to win a bloody mob war for control of his crime family, maintain a rose garden, and have some fun too, as the pictures below illustrate. But last month the jailed-for-life Colombo boss lost an embarrassing beef over his favored dining room spot that’s still the talk of his prison digs.

The dispute was one you might expect in a maximum security joint, where groups based on ethnicity, or region, carve out their own turf. Think of it like those occasional spats at Rao’s, the famed but tiny 10-table eatery that is favored by wiseguys – as well as politicos and celebrities – in East Harlem where every table is reserved virtually every night of the week, and where tempers sometimes flare about who’s getting a table and who isn’t.

But this one occurred in the mess hall of a relatively laid-back medium security prison in Butner, North Carolina where elderly inmates who need regular medical treatment and/or testing – like Bernie Madoff and the late Vincent (Chin) Gigante – are held. The facility, which has 760 inmates, is one of four in a complex that includes a hospital and houses a total of 3500 convicts.

“It’s the same thing in the synagogue I attend,” said one lawyer who is also familiar with prison protocol. “When someone’s in your row, that’s a problem." (Persico at a rose garden he cultivated in a prison yard at Lompoc in the late 1980s.)

The dispute began when Persico got to the corner table he has been sitting at for five years and saw it was already occupied. It ended with the 77-year-old Mafia boss walking away with juice dripping from his face and three wannabe lunch mates following meekly behind him.

On this particular day, inmate Antonio (T.O.) Stokes, an inner city gangster serving 17 years for the murder of a gambler during the robbery of a dice game in the nation’s capital, and three buddies, were already dining when the Persico crew arrived at the four-man table, according to Gang Land’s eye-and-ear witness. Stokes, 28, has been at Butner for two years, according to a Bureau of Prisons spokesman.

Junior reacted the same way he has whenever another inmate was “sitting at his table” with a window seat that looks out over the prison compound, said Gang Land’s prison source, who gave the following account of what ensued:

“He stood there giving off an aura that said, ‘get up and give me my table,’ and he tried to hurry the D.C. guys” but Stokes wasn’t intimidated, and told Persico: “You can have the table when we finish.”

As an angry Junior sat down at the next table to wait, he may have brushed up against Stokes. Or maybe he didn’t. In any event, T.O. said: “Hey pops, if you’re gonna bump me, say excuse me.”

“I didn’t bump you so I’m not going to say excuse me,” was Persico’s retort.

Stokes calmly stood up, said, “Fuck you then,” and emptied his glass of juice in Junior’s face, adding: “Go find another fucking table.”

If looks could kill, Stokes would be dead now. But a few seconds later, as T.O. and his buddies continued eating, the aging Mafia boss got up and walked out, with his crew of younger and obviously not old-school mobsters, following close behind.

Junior must have laid down the law to his crew, though. One of them manages to get to his table before anyone else does, and after staying away from his table “for a few days,” Gang Land hears Junior is back at his favored corner table with a view.

Whats what they do in prison got to do with the organized criminal component? So what, these guys are animals in the joint, who gives a fuck if some young punk slapped a 75 year old italian around.
Have that same guy come to Coddington Avenue into Crea's club and talk like that.
Alternatively, none of these wiseguys would be caught dead walking into some black neighborhood where the gangbangers derive sustinence by destroying their own people. Its cuz the wiseguys live in the suburbs.

So Scorese's standard for ORGANIZED CRIME is not the complexity, size, hierarchy, cash-flow, longevity, scope and rackets of the enterprise- but whether some of a street gang's membership are animals in the can. Interesting.

Respect little nicky or as our friends scorcese and black family would say; lil nicky.

Actually if you looked at what i quoted from tyler durden you would see that most of my post was referring to what he said. The fact that this guy did that to carmine persico who is still considered the overall boss of the columbos without fear says a lot. The fact that none of his people that were with him didnt do anything aswell.

By the way "lil nikky" you dont need to capitalise the word organised crime to emphasise your point either i know what you mean.

Clearly you don't understand my point because you keep posting garbage on this thread that has nothing to do with the topic. The fact that there are some lunatics in the can that don't respect italian gangsters is a complete non-sequitur. It tells us nothing about whether these losers, on their own merits, can be considered organized crime.

I figured using capitals would help your limited intellectual capacity focus on the actual topic on the thread.

Its not comparable. We are talking enterprise corruption hear. Causing construction costs to go up single handidly 5%. The only think the blacks ever made you do was avoid their neighborhood while driving.
Respect Nicky.

im sorry i didnt think that a thread called "crip kills blood" required any intelllectual capacity.

And again i was replying to tyler durdens post not anything you put down because to be honest this whole topic has been posted up numerous times before.

and speaking of garbage at least i didnt have to post a racial slur like you did in BGF thread just because you didnt feel that particular topic is interesting.

These discussions are pointless. No American Mafia-lover is ever going to admit that some street gang sets are powerful. In my honest opinion, the vast majority of the street gang members are loose cannons, but some -mostly those at the higher end- DO know the game and are involved in organized crime instead of petty bum crime.

Its not even that, we can discuss that. The point is these guys came onto two other threads to do with street gangs and black gangsters and made racial remarks straight away for no reason and then lil nikkys got the nerve to say im posting garbage when what i posted was relevant to the topic and was a reply to what someone else had posted.

This thread is about how OC russian mafia and the cartels are way more organized than the crips, bloods, and whatever other street gang you want to throw out there. Dont throw out the race card at me pal, if you can't handle the fact that I disagree that the rappers with the hoodies on mtv are not real "gangsta" than thats your problem. Reality is reality, fiction is fiction.

Get over yourself

Nobody respects mafiosi anymore other than a minute of folks who happen to live within area's they "run" and some misguided gangbangers

Plus in a few more decades , these "mafiosi" are going to have last names like "Gonzalez" and "Hernandez"

I agree. It really is pointless . There seems to be a running bias within the organized crime aficionado "community" against "street gangs". Even when some of these "street gangs" demonstrate demonstrate "organized crime".

Yeah cause the title of the thread really gives that impression doesn't it.

And dont try and turn it around on me by using that race card nonsense that people like you use when your trying to be edgy or politically incorrect. I was referring to your first comment on the street gangs thread that SC had to edit out.

"reality is reality, fiction is fiction".
What the hell is that even supposed to mean?

Fiction means that which is not facutal, fake. Reality is mutually exclusive with fiction. Stop busting my balls; okay? The fuckin word I used is not even racist. Im done with this shit. Enjoy posting about street corner crack head gangs. This site used to be interesting, now it has turned into the wire worship hour.
bye

the 3 or 4 threads out of the 100 that get posted up on here that arent about the lcn all of a sudden makes this site the wire worship hour.

You're missing my point. Obviously every gangbanger won't bow down and lick the boots of the Italians. I never implied that. But the infatuation gang members(and not only, Griselda Blanco named her son Michael Corleone ) have always had with the Italian Mafia image is hard to deny. Look at Big Meech and his Black Mafia Family for example.

And what I said is true. Countless gangbangers line up behind anyone who has even the slightest bit of reputation or fame or money. Even most rappers have huge entourages of gang members that do their bidding, protect them and sometimes even kill for them.
Guys like Wild Bill, Basciano, Scarpa or Casso could have recruited an army of gangbangers if they wanted to. They were stone killers, huge reputations, charismatic, and had a lot of money and power. That's what gangbangers are 'attracted' to.

i enjoy reading some of the more "street gang" themed articles, and scorsese posts alot of worthwhile articles in general. here's a real easy solution for some of you dopes: avoid the stuff that you think is boring, stupid, not "true OC", whatever the reason may be. if you feel like arguing about what the definition of organized crime is, or what groups do or don't qualify qualify as such, make a thread of your own, problem solved!

i get what you mean but that particular scenario even if it was possible would eventually implode on itself.

also it was the actual street gangs and hoodlums that sort of drove white mobsters out black areas during late 60s and 70s by robbing numbers operations and taking control of the drug trade in large areas(nicky barnes, frank matthews, pstones etc ).

the mafia mythology and imagery is mostly what alot of these rappers, gangbangers and drug dealers admire more than the actual people. Black mafia family doesnt really mean much because evry crime group gets called a mafia these days. Remember the philadelphia black mafia, although they structured their group like the mob they were furthest from being their fans, most of them were black muslims who alligned themselves with the nation of islam. With the rappers alot of the people around them get paid to be there.

Personally i dont care, i really never read these threads so im not against scorsece or blackfamily posting anything. But as far as this comparison thing goes, big meech vs tony federici. That is the essence of black oc vs italian oc. So, while u never hear Rick Ross dropping his name on every rap song, federici has never done heavy time, and hes made MILLIONS. And whats better, he can spend it. Big meech can make 20 billion, but it aint worth shit when your sitting in fedmax. Lcn rackets have longevity. Rackets that dont revolve around the destruction of their communities. Black oc is certainly more violent and more profitable, but thats the difference. I mean no disrespect to either races. Respect!

¿De donde es don cheech?

Skinny, Respecto.
As far as more profitable? Mabye, I think thats highly debatable. But even it is, it doesnt make a difference, because the lifespan of these guys is at most 30. These guys are considered "ole g's" when they are in their early 20's.

Interesting how this topic turned out. I would say this since my name is brought up, street gangs will be the trail mix crime group ( ranging from street crimes to racketeering). Everybody have their own interest and to be bias on a forum without full knowledge of a subject isnt going to do you well. Yes gangbangers will always be in headlines and it's going be that way since there's about 800,000 gang members in this country. Furthermore, many gangs been active before the drug trade grew in their area. So to say one thing is strictly the cause-effect of gangs they is entirely fiction. My 2 cents. Respect to everybody.

I read somewhere the gangster Jeff Fort in Chicago had 2 associates of the Chicago outfit killed. Why do you think there has been no retaliation, did Accardo think Fort was a force to be reckoned with or was it just that he didn't care?

That was around 72 and Jeff was called to a sit-down due to him expanding the stones extortion around the southside. The outfit still had a protection racket for some street dealers and after the sit down jeff had 2 associates killed and left in front of the outfit headquarters but for business the outfit didn't do anything because they already have other lucrative rackets.

the syndicate didn't do shit because jeff fort wasn't a joke

jeff fort had access to no less than 3,000 shooters

This is why the mob needs younger guys like in their 20s so they can enforce the rules, like those guys that did that to carmine persico with the juice, those older mobsters need to realize that these other gangs don't have respect for them. These older mobsters cant get physical anymore there just old and decrepit.

I doubt he had 300 shooters. Carrying a gun with your pants hanging down by your ass doesn't make you a shooter

people weren't sagging their pants in the 70s or 80s

jeff fort gave the order to have john gotti fucked up in prison

Good. Let them keep on killing each other. They're scum.

They should learn how to aim and shoot first. They have missed and hit bystanders too many times.

There was no 'order' to have John Gotti fucked up in prison. He just abused the wrong guy and paid for it.

As for Jeff Fort... some syndicate people were known to have crooked cops pick people off the street and deliver them to their deaths. Like Casso did with Jimmy Hydell.

What was Jeff Fort going to do if one night some cops pulled him over for a traffic violation, and the next thing he knows he's getting the blowtorch treatment?

Pretty much. There are shooters and there are shooters. Some are professionals. And some are the type that spray a Mac-10 in a drive-by and hit women or children instead of their intended target.
I don't know which type Jeff Fort had, but I know which type Chicago had...
***

Look, the mob was never all-powerful, everyone with half a brain knows that. But in its prime it was the most powerful crime organization the US has ever seen or ever will see. Trying to rewrite history and make it seem like they could have been bullied by street gangs won't change that.

nobody would have assaulted john gotti without getting an okay from whoever ran that prison. jeff fort had the most clout in marion at the time and he was mysteriously shipped to Colorado the same year gotti got assaulted.....go figure

jeff forts body guards didn't let anybody near him

you ain't got a clue about jeff fort so just leave it alone

He probably had his own set of hitmen and enforcers as well as the gang itself. At the height of his power he probably could have put the green light out on anyone and any gangmember could have stepped up to do the job when opportunity raised its head. But that doesnt mean that 3,000 gangmembers were personally at his beck and call at any time. But i agree he was no joke, at the time i believe he said something that was directed at the police and also subtly at the outfit "there wont be killing without killing". if you take into consideration that at the time he was suspected of ordering a number of ambush/killings of cops he was definatley someone that could cause alot of havoc and chaos for the outfit. They gotta have thought we dont want this shit happening in our neck of the woods.

So now you go from 'ordered it' to 'okayed it'...
And why would anyone need an ok to assault Gotti? In Marion he was just an old white man, hundreds of miles away from New York, his powerbase.
For the reccord Robert Edward Molley aka "Midget Molly", a huge drug dealer, was in Marion when that happened, and he said what everyone else said: that it was a spur of the moment thing. Gotti abused a black guy who didn't give a fuck about anyone and got beat up for it.
If you're referring to Florence, then no, he was moved there in 2006. There goes your theory.
And I'm pretty sure the Aryan Brotherhood had the most clout in Marion, but that's neither here nor there...


Then how was he arrested?

jeff fort was not shipped to Colorado in 2006

ordered it, okayed it is the same difference

in marion john gotti was still john gotti

the Aryan brotherhood ain't running shit in Illinois department of corrections

you do understand marion is a federal prison, right? the brotherhood has always had a strong powerbase at the federal level, including marion, especially around that time when it was still a max joint. i believe its a medium security prison today though.

Everywhere i've read about Fort says he was transferred to Florence in 2006 like here for example - http://www.biography.com/people/jeff-fort-578620?page=2 scroll down to the bottom. When do you say he was transferred?

I see these blood/crip and other low level street gangs as little kids without brains. They're shooting each other for no absolute reason and that's pretty wrong. Currently I think it's all the drug game that runs it.

If we speak about power. Gangs got number, but quality goes over quantity. I think that an Italian or Russian mob if they needed to get rid of a gang would just crush them over with tactics and professionalism. Like what can a 15 year old kid with a pistol that he barely holds in his hands do against a 25 year old Russian who's straight out of the army also with a gun. I guess it's only a miracle if the youngster would kill the Russian in this situation.

Prison is a different place, it's the inside. There are different rules than on the outside. If I was a powerful mobster, then best way to make my way in prison beef is to manipulate with the enemy by touching his family. Just like tha Mexican Mafia did to tax all those streetgangs.

In Russia, I can say an example how inside prison turned on mobsters. Almost everyone has heard of Alexander Solonik. His gangs - Kurganskaya three leaders were leading their hitman brigade. On the outside they were big bosses and influental. They were responsible even for killing Thieves in Law. Well when they got in prison, who runs the prison? Thieves in Law. So all of them got beaten to death on the inside.

I also read about a theory that at least one of them (Oleg Neliubin I think) was killed on Sergei Butorin's orders, so he couldn't talk. Some informant said Butorin simply made a call to one of the many illegal phones in prison.

They were pretty much on the end trying to cut ties with Orekhovskaya and were up to try and take over Moscow on their own. That could also actually be a reason to get them killed.

Kurganskaya is the brigade that I know as most fucked up till the core. They didn't pay their own men money, the leaders just kept it for themselves. Others were given just money to buy food and to pay for their apartment. They made one guy to kill his best friend, as he hadn't killed anyone. That's why the group fell apart right from the start.

I also read there later was a big confusion about who did what: some crimes of the Butorin's Orekhovskaya were attributed to the Kurganskaya etc. There is also that Sergei "Sylvester" Timofeev story, nobody knows who killed him, if it was Butorin, the Kurganskaya, or did he fake his death.
Anyway, you are right, those groups were really out of control and played dirty even by the underworld standards. There is also Dmitriy Belkin, the leader of the "Odinzovskaya" part of the organization, who is still on trial and is mostly famous for ordering the 1998 murder of Yuriy Kerez, a law enforcement official who was the first one to open an investigation using the article n.210 (organization of the criminal association - something like the American RICO), that is usually very hard to prove.

From my understanding, Jeff Fort have been locked in Florence Max since 86 because he was charged with conspiracy to commit a terrorist act on behalf of a foreign government and plus more which is about 200 years. During his time as Chief over the entire stones their membership was at 5,000 but then he arrested and released around 77 in which he formed the El Rukns which consisted of exclusively his high ranking leaders which numbered around 200. The CPD,ATF,DEA, and FBI was on them.

Hello, PolakVet. I'm quite interested in organized crime in the CIS countries that you post.
Yes, you're right about the drug business that they're involved in and they do have quantity but that's not always the case. Well it's not all teens but a mix of adults too. Matter of fact is that some of these kids don't care who is the threat and will kill anybody.

Indeed prison is vastly different and actually this is where the gangs are more of a mob inside illinois prisons. Actually La Eme have only some gangs under thier control but others refuse them per say.

Florence was only opened in 1994 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence

I believe he was transferred from Marion to Florence in 2006.

Ok thanks for the clear up.

the Aryan brotherhood ain't running shit in Illinois department of corrections [/quote]

Well this much is true marion is a fed joint, but your right thr brothers do got the juice in IDOC

There is a video somewhere on youtube, where they show that Sylvestr is alive. Well it's some older guy who looks like him in it. I couldn't find it currently, but I'll search a bit later. I read also an article that even Russian Organized Crime Police thinks that Sylvestr is alive. In that article it was also mentioned that he was seen with the Thief in Law - Rospis' in Moscow.


Happy to know that there's also someone else on this forum who's interested in Russian OC

fort was transferred outta marion in 96/97

he hasn't been running the stones since 96/97

they shipped fort outta Illinois after the incident with gotti

Have you got a source for that? Everywhere i've read about him it says 2006.

not an internet source but I know a few stones

jeff fort got shipped outta marion well before 2006

Respect Polak Vet.
The best analogy I can come with is the Sopranos, now, as we know the show is fiction, but we also know that the show took the illicit scam storys from real life.
Tony had the HUD scam going with Zelman and the black assemblyman. Tony sees that there is potential for more money to be juiced from the copper pipe. He has Zelman get the black assemblyman to send some gangbangers down there and remove the crack heads from the premises.
On the other side of it you have the time when Bobby got his eye shot out by the black gangbangers. Does that mean they are more organized?
Respect Black Familyl; you sound like an educated fellow.

I think the power and influence really comes from what you are and how you grow up and what drives you to be what you are.

Some guy is driven by money and he earns it, other is driven by some hood street respect and that's their goal.

I always thought that Bobby got shot by some typical hoodlums. And respect back at you.

You may be right. Does the Solntsevskaya Bratva still operate in America? If so what areas?

There's really less info about Russian Organized Crime in USA that I have reach to. I know that in 90's they were in Los Angeles and San Francisco. For a fact I know that each USA's big city holds ground for a Russian crime group. But are they individual or brigades from Moscow I got no knowledge.

I think most of the groups are individual ones with just having connections to Russia as having a partnership in business means. There are also a lot of groups, that are made by ex-members of some group altough they don't contact their own group anymore and neither do they pay them for something.