War ? Gambino vs Genovese after big paul hit

War ? Gambino vs Genovese after big paulie hit.

Which family would have won any war if it escalated 1985-86.

What was the manpower, firepower, at each family's disposal.

Genovese

Make a good movie plot. Not much else.

Short answer, it never would have happened. Not in a million years. Both families were making way too much fucking money in 1985 to bring it to a halt with a so-called "all out war."

Honestly if it came down to an all out war, i think it would be ended by a boss getting killed by his own guys who see a war as an opportunity to take the reigns themselves, while being heros for ending the bloodshed. Just imo....

*IF* we had to come up with an answer, I'd say the Genoveses would win simply because the other families were pissed about the Castellano hit so they most likely would of sided with the Genoveses to get rid of Gotti, but like everyone else has said, it wouldn't happen because there was too much money to lose.

Even without the IF! The Genovese Family would have CRUSHED all four other families. They had the guys, stomach and strategists to win. No sweat! Plus Chin was a ruthless mother fucker!

Point about Chin, you don't think he could have one of his own guys make a bomb? He had two guys willing to do his dirty work for him. They did all the work and Chin could play dumb. If there was backlash it would have been at Amuso and Casso.

Another case in point is when they played that sucker from Philly to kill his own boss. Chin let that idiot do the work and then the Genovese guys went in and make a fortune.

The guy was ruthless and very smart! Dangerous combination. Throw in his balls and cast iron will.

Columbo Family: they would have shot each other- scratch them
Lucchese family: good adversary, not enough experience and brains
Bonanno Family: just didnt have the personnel
Gambino Family: lots of food press, not much in the brains or organization department

Genovese Family membership 1985-6 ?.

Guessing, close to 500. But remember they were always quality of quantity. However add the thousand or so fringe guys who would have jumped in firing all over to score some brownie points!

Carlo Gambino, Famliy would have had 500 in 1976 ?

Gabino Famliy membership in 1985-6 ?

No idea, there all inbreeds, who could keep track!

Yes i know it is hard to keep track.

Don Carlo Gambino, Famliy was said to be main ones in 1976.

Just thinking did the Genovese take over from them in the ten years to 1985-6 or Genovese Famliy had always more men.

Take over? Your asking if they had more guys?

According to the feds they were around 200 or so. Gambinos were around 250.

Take over ? more guys in the ten years from Don Carlo passed away.

You see to people outside USA people think the Gambino were the main guys in New York not only in 1976 but 1985-6 to John Gotti because of the press reports of Gotti trail.

According to the feds they were around 200 or so. Gambinos were around 250.

Show your cards! I dont buy it! That was the tail end of it all. If they said it, pull your file and prove me wrong.

First, would I be wrong to assume you won't care how many cards I show you?

Second, I don't think either the Genovese or Gambino families ever had as many as 500 members. The highest I've seen was 450 and 400, respectively, and those were the numbers Joe Bonanno cited. And this was back in the 1950's and 1960's when the same close tabs weren't keep on the families.

In 1988, the "25 years after Valachi" report cited approximately 200 members for both the Genovese and Gambino families.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/125163NCJRS.pdf


In 1989, the New Jersey OC report cited 300 members for the Genovese family and 250 for the Gambinos.
http://www.state.nj.us/sci/pdf/annual21.pdf


Even the rather inflated figures Selwyn Raab cited for that time period in his otherwise very good book, Five Families, weren't that high - 400 for the Gambinos and at least 300 for the Genovese.


If you look back, the NY families seem to have had a set amount of members each of them can have. For, say, the last 25 years or so the average estimates have been relatively consistent. Of course, there were always be extreme estimates one way or the other. But one thing is for sure, neither family had anywhere close to 500 made members in the 1980's; if ever.

Nice post Ivy.

Boy what a suck up

The guy went off and came back with some facts for the thread he may have went to North Jersey but he did not get the facts of you if he went there.

"Remember your the Gambino Family, and dont think for a second that anybody, anywhere will EVER...EVER fuck with us" - Gotti Sr

Gotti said a lot of things, most never came true. Go back and read about the FBI on his doorstep telling him the "Westside" was coming for him. Agents reports states the fear in Gotti's demeanor. He knew his balls were bigger than his brains and was screwed one way or another

I think Gotti just said that to instill confidence in his troops. Sure Gotti had balls but he was far from fearless if you go by certain accounts. In the balls department, I think it's always been hard to outdo the Gambinos, but brains? Hands down the Genovese with all their old-timers and hardly no rats. It's safe to agree though that during Carlo's reign, the two families were probably inseperable in terms of power. In my view the Genovese were always the true Cosa Nostra gangsters.

LCN, some of the fearless or stupid Gotti traits I was speaking of we're the McBratney killing in front of fifty people! The killing Castellano plot and execution, regardless if Paul was hated he was still the boss of a top family. And truth be told just his behaviorto flaunt who he was when out day to day! We can define any of these as fearless, stupid etc I suppose.

Actually the FBI estimated the membership totals during that time of the Genoveses to be 275 and the Gambinos 300.

I'm even skeptical they ever had as many as 400. I think that at their height both families probably had closer to 300 made members. In the 1970s there were mass ceremonies to fill up the ranks of members that had died since 1957. So it is reasonable to assume that the numbers in the 1970s would be comparable to the numbers in the 1950s.

Ok, let me ask this. Today we are told the Genovese Family has between 275- 300 memebers? You doubt there was much more back in the golden days of the 30's thru the late 60's? Also the FBI estimates back in the 60's and 70's are not accurate in the least. The FBI by thier own admission was chasing ghosts and had no clue who was who back then. You don't think hundreds of guys slipped under the radar? Just some food for thought.

It was actually Armand Assante who said that, Dap .

Although I don't doubt that Gotti said many similar things over the years .

It would have been Gambinos v. Genovese and Lucchese. In that situtation, Gambinos would have gone down in full out war. I'm not sure where the Bonanno and Colombo families stood at that point as both were and still are highly dysfunctional.

I see the Bonanno's going with the Gambino's and Colombos probably going with the Genovese at that time. Would of been a nasty fight any way you look at it.

Today both families are estimated to have between 200 and 250 made members. The estimated membership totals of the 1980s would more than likely be comparable to the 1970s. I just have difficulty believing that between 1957 and 1975 New York's biggest families lost almost half of its members. And considering that the numbers have pretty much stayed consistent for at least the last twenty years, makes me believe that the membership totals haven't changed significantly in the last half a century.

Ok, so all the attrition, declining in numbers, Assimilation of Italians in those neighborhoods is BS? You don't feel the numbers have decreased!

Stop making such silly assumptions...

What I'm saying is, while the attrition and assimilation would have probably been the most significant in the last twenty years, it seems that it hasn't had much effect on the membership totals of the New York families, which is why I believe their numbers may very well have always stayed more or less the same.

I'm thinking that when the books were re-opened in the mid 1970s, the families replenished their numbers. Therefore I think that the membership totals in the 1970s would probably be comparable to the 1950s.

Silly Assumption? Ok, if it has happened in the last 20 years how are the numbers still the same as the 50's thru early 80's?

Try asking the FBI. I'm only stating the facts. In the late 1980s the FBI estimated that the Genoveses had 275 made members while the Gambinos had 300. Considering that they didn't lose 100 guys in a decade, these numbers would likely be comparable to the late 1970s, after the books were re-opened and the families replenished their numbers. So the membership totals of these families in the 1980s would probably not differ much from their numbers in the 1950s. Since the late 1980s the New York families (especially the smaller ones) have only decreased slighly in numbers, but not significantly. For example, the Bonannos had 150 made members in the 1970s and only a decade ago they still had the same amount. The same goes for the Luccheses and Colombos.

No thank you, not on my list to ask the FBI. However when the FBI say there numbers are ESTIMATES how can you tell me your stating a FACT?

And I also was only stating headcounts for the Gambino's and Genovese Families. Just for clarity in regards to this discussion.

I'm stating the facts by saying that the FBI estimated this back then... So fact is that the FBI gave those estimates...

Ok? I fell like I just drank something cold real fast.

And nothing for nothing thats why thier called estimates and not facts.

Agreed..good point !!

Yeah, good point..when the the chin died, i remember reading a quote in the paper from bruce mouw, the fbi gambino squad leader, and he said gotti would bad mouth everybody, including other bosses, but the only one he feared was the chin..said they never heard once trash him on a bug ..that says a lot !!

I personally don't put a lot of stock in any estimates prior to the 1980's, which is when the feds started keeping better tabs.



Actually the most consistent estimates for both the Genovese and Gambino families are a little over 200 members each. That's what was cited in both Danny Leo's 2007 indictment and Danny Marino's 2008 indictment. I don't think either family is as high as 250-300 now.



They're called "estimates" because it's not likely that the feds are going to know about every single member. But it's also not likely, in this day and age, that a large number of members will be unknown. The feds are going to know about most of them and come up with a specific number. It's a very educated, close, estimate; especially when you consider that the NY families apparently have a specific max they can have (unless they try to cheat).

In my personal opinion, I highly doubt more than, say, 10% of a given family, at most, could be unknown to the feds. So, for the Genovese or Gambino families, maybe as many as 20 guys are unknown. But 50, 75, 100? No way.

Glad somebody caught that haha

Genovese or Gambino families membership was around the same 1985-86 maybe, so a war could have went ether way. If other families had of taken sides on which ever side Genovese or Gambino and had more men does not make the side the winner in any war.

As has been said, a "war" would never happen. At least in the sense of what people are apparently envisioning. For the last 80 years, pretty much all the conflict has been internal family strife. And even that, like the Colombo war in the early 1990's, seems to be a thing of the past. Now a guy here or there may be taken out of the picture.

But, hypothetically speaking, if the Genovese and Gambino families had gone to war, how many members they had doesn't factor in the way people think. It's not like the regular army where everybody in the family can be drafted. A relatively small portion of either family would actually be involved in the conflict. I think the only benefit that would come with size is being able to better weather the inevitable law enforcement crackdown .

Ok, good points! However, you didn't answer who you think would win?

The feds.

Ok let's think outside the box here: the Feds now are going after the bad guys and leaving OC alone. If the Genovese went to war with the Gambino family who do you think would win?

Gotti could talk a good game (if that) but there's no way he would've survived a Chin onslaught. That guy had too many people, too much money and then you got a healthy Benny Eggs, Dom Cirillo, Ernie M, Barney's rising star, Bobby Manna, Jimmy Ida, Tino, and so many others. Gravano was vicious but people like to hype the Gambino's under Gotti, fact is the Genovese's had more than they did

I agree! Good points Joe

Chin did not fuck around. I think he passed that mentality to the guys running it today. Gotti had the power he had due to the time period, people were scared shitless of the mob even in the early nineties and he was one of the guys who wasn't afraid to pull the trigger. But he wasn't discreet. Gotti held out for 5 years, the Chin wasn't convicted until 1997.

Today the Gambino's got power, but they were ruined by the Gotti's and they stick to strip clubs and construction. The West Side still has a good amount of leverage on the streets.

In that situation back in the 1980's I think the Genovese family had the upper hand. There were key guys in the Gambino family, Jimmy Failla and Danny Marino, who wanted Gotti gone. Probably others as well who also saw Gotti as a usurper. Chin's control of the Genovese family was much more secure. He had more solid backing from his own people (even if you take into account Capeci's article about Allie Shades) as well as support from the Luccheses. When you think about it, it was pure dumb luck that saved Gotti twice from being killed by the Genovese and/or Luccheses.

Ivy whats that article about Allie Shades?

In one of the Gang Land News articles Capeci wrote about Gotti and Malangone supposedly plotting against Chin. Basically the same thing Chin, Failla, and Marino wanted to do but in reverse. Chin would be killed and Allie Shades installed as the new boss of the Genovese family.

I've always wondered if that was really true. I have my doubts. And even if it was, I think Allie Shades would have been signing his own death warrant. I don't see Chin's loyalists tripping over themselves to anoint Allie Shades as their new leader the way so many Gambino captains fawned over Gotti after Castellano was killed.

I think if Allie Shades was really plotting against the Chin he wouldn't be alive right now

Story total BS Allie was like a brother to Chin. And Alloe isn't that type of guy who wants anymore headaches. He's fairly chill. Never even crossed his mind

IMHO, the Genovese family would have gotten the upper hand because they had stronger and smarter leadership. Chin and his crews were shrewd. Gotti was glamour and glitz, albeit ballsy.

LOL I cannot believe I got sucked into this discussion. The speculative "what if" threads are sometimes interesting, but answers are usually biased by fan boys.

Yeah, I typically want nothing to do with these hypothetically questions. It's just pointless.

interesting The speculative "what if" threads.

Are what you said sometimes interesting.


biased by fan boys ? are on each thread full stop.

I typically want nothing to do with these hypothetically questions.

The whole website for the most part in full of hypothetically questions Ivy, true facts are hard to come by speculative facts is what we deal with for the most part press reports, witness court reports, rats evidence which is typically interesting but self servicing junk.

It's just pointless.

Not at all, we got some nice posts on membership history of the two mob families at this time 1985-86 and before then also up to the 1990's historical correctness frequently are lapses you get in mob books, filmmakers, so sometimes posters on here may know more then most poeple.

You sound like an existentialist

Precise meaning and scope is off topic.

After castellano died idk. The genovese had the lucchese's behind them as well so it would've been hard for them to take on both. During gambino and part of Castellano's reign I think they would probably win though. This is all just hypothetical though.

At that time period you'd have to say the Genovese would come out on top but they wouldn't have dismantled the family they'd just have clipped Gotti and the war would have ended.

Under Gambino the Westside wouldn't stand a chance IMO. Carlo's power on the commission, muscle..he had the biggest family, tons of zips that would do his bidding.

The Genovese leadership during Carlo's reign, and especially during Castellano's, was always friendly with the Gambinos, so I think war is a rather unrealistic scenario for that time period.

Your scenario was from before Castellano was killed. Chin was friends with Big Paul. But, he despised Gotti. That, combined with the self serving rule of never whacking a mob boss, should have sealed Gotti's fate. The Gambinos were weaker than the Genovese/Lucchese combined. Once Gotti was gone, the beef would have been settled.

DeCiccio and Lino were clipped by Chin/Casso-Amuso. And Angelo Ruggiero would have been murdered by Casso, since he was the one that sent Jimmy Hydell after Gaspipe. And they were after Sammy the Bull, but he was too evasive. So, in a way, there was a war going on.

Oh, Chin no doubt had beef with the Gambinos after Gotti was killed. I was just referring to potential Genovese/Gambino wars pre-Gotti to be unrealistic.

I don't think the Genovese would have had a problem with Sammy being boss if they had hit Gotti. Probably would have been better off for the family considering Sammy's nature. He would have still been caught like all the rest but it would have been much later than '92.

with the if and but, don't makes the History.
But hypothetically speaking, if the war was began in the 1988 after the Commission Case.
We should have seen sides that would have been created, the Genoveses-Luccheses against the Gambinos-Colombos, the Bonnano kick out by the Commission for the Pistone story, would have sided with those who had promised the return in the Comission, the Colombos of Vic Orena perhaps will managed to get permission to kill Carmine Persico and his loyalists.
And how would react the strong families outside of New York, like Chicago, Philadelphia or Boston.
In Mafia Prince Leonetti say that Scarfo was a Genoveses ally,same thing for the Bufalinos.Gotti controll the Decavalcantes,don't know about the Buffalo family.

hypothetically in an alternative past these would have been the sides:

Gambinos/Colombos/Decavalcante vs Genoveses/Luccheses/Scarfos

Yeah, good point..when the the chin died, i remember reading a quote in the paper from bruce mouw, the fbi gambino squad leader, and he said gotti would bad mouth everybody, including other bosses, but the only one he feared was the chin..said they never heard once trash him on a bug ..that says a lot !!

Yep----Gotti,as overheard on FBI bugs:
Called his DEAR friend Joey Massino "The Whale"
Referred to the Amuso/Casso tandem as "The Circus"
Disparagingly described the Colombo Family as "Cambodians"
Billed the DeCavalcante Family as "Shoe-Shiners"

But never once spoke ill of The Chin.

John Gotti and Big Joey Massino were allies, even John Gotti helped Massino regain Bonanno Family's seat on the commission and he adviced Massino to put a limit to family members who're pushing dope and work more on traditional crimes. Gotti lately lost Massino's support because Massino began growing anger towards Gotti because Gotti attracting too much media attention.

On the other hand, Gotti was supporting Vic Orena, Colombo Family rebel. However Vic lost the war by going in prison, anyways he cost a lot for Persico, who lost many musclemen.

If Gotti would keep smart, wouldn't lost Massino's like and would help Orena for takeover, i guess he could manage to beat both Lucchese and Genovese Families, because Bonnanos were, in 90's, even stronger than Lucchese's and Casso & Amuso leadership was ruining the family already.

It sure as shit wouldn't of been the Genovese family. They are loyal above any family. The Gambinos on the other hand, kind of have a thing about killing their own boss.

I don't think any of the outside families would get involved. They never have before. They were all having their own problems during the 80's.

Sammy was part of the plot and would have been killed too. The Genovese wanted James Brown and Dan Marino, possibly Butch.

You got that right! JK, I can imagine Gotti would be hot headed enough to comment The Chin's fake insanity. Making jokes about Gigante's nicknames ''the enigma in the rhobe'' or whatever. The Gambino crew probably had a ''silvio dante''-thing going on. Doesn't matter how much you're respected and feared, people will always speak against you behind your back, laughing while you waltz around thiking everything is OK.
-Every High school tough-guy's life.