New York mob vs Chicago outfit

Which mob is/was more powerful and more effective? Which is/was stronger? Meaning now and in the past when they were both at their peak. I always thought al Capone was overrated as a mob boss. And accardo was a very effectove boss but couldn't hold a candle to the New York bosses. But idk that's my opinion. Post away guys:)

Ricca/Accardo were great bosses and arguably as shrewd and affective as any of the NY bosses throughout history.

I'd say Gambino was probably the most affective leader in American OC history, built up one of the smaller families (Mangano) into the biggest in NY, kept a low profile and had tremendous influence over other bosses.

Lucchese was a great money maker also.

Talk about drudging up one of the oldest and most hotly-debated topics on these OC forums.

You're making two separate comparisons - the families as a whole and the bosses invidually.

In terms of competency as a boss, Accardo was the equal of any of the NY bosses, i.e. Gambino, Lucchese, etc. And a good argument could be made that the Outfit at it's peak in the 1950's, when he was the boss, rivaled some of the NY families in power. Of course, it's not fair to compare the Outfit to all the NY mob, i.e. all 5 families.

Nowadays, the Outfit is closer in size and scope to the other remaining small families outside NY than any of the 5 families.

Well New York City had 5 families. In Chicago if there were 5 families accardo wouldn't have been making as much money. But that's beside the fact. Accardo was a great boss. One of the greatest but there were better bosses than him definitely. Chicago outfit was as strong as new yorks weakest families but I don't know if I would say stronger than new yorks weakest families. The Gambino's and genovese were a lot more powerful than the outfit. And I never really knew this was a big debate. I always thought everyone just assumed NYC was the most powerful. Which they were in my opinion.

I totally agree about gambino.

I think most would agree that the NY families were always bigger and stronger than the Outfit. But there's always been a number of Chicago posters who get uppity about this. They're very defensive about the "rep" of their hometown crime family. And beyond that, it's taken a long time to wear down the myth that the Outfit is still as powerful as it once was. Just a few years ago we still had a lot of people on the forums thinking the Outfit still had Chicago in an "iron grip" and more or less controlled the entire city. People thought there were 70, 100, or more members and 700 or more associates. When the feds cited 28 members and a little over 100 associates in 2007, many refused to believe it, almost throwing a tantrum. People thought it still controlled things out west even though there's really nothing left to control. And so on. Even now, there are those who equate just about any and all corruption in Chicago with the Outfit in some way.

There was this old dude that made a lot of research over the years(sorry for not remembering his name,hes famous)had a great sayin on the Accardo mobsters episode,it went somethin like this "Dont forget there are five diferent families in NY,but the Outfit is monolythic"...so that means the outfit is/used to be under one boss,so its a lil bit dificult to compare the two organizations.....plus the old outfit had a multinational membership

That was Chicago reporter John "Bulldog" Drummond who said that.

The thing is, the New York metropolitan area is so vast that it can support 5 families. It's the entire tri-state area really.

And nowadays, I'd argue that the 5 families all being in the same area is a strength to them. They're able to pool manpower, at times, and work together in joint rackets. There's a lot of intersecting interests involving all five families that makes it hard for the feds to tackle. Chicago, like the other remaining smaller families, is sort of out on an island by itself.

I would've never guessed that. Chicago has been down for a while. It used to be one of the strongest families in America only behind the 5 families in New York. During both their heydays I would say all 5 families were probably stronger than Chicago. With the more weaker families(even though they were still far from weak, just in comparison to gambino, genovese) being closer to Chicago but still being stronger. And obviously today all the families in New York are a lot stronger than Chicago. Even more so than before.

I don't know much about NY but Chicago's power at its height was staggering--and I am the farthest thing from a fan. But it not only controlled Vegas and had great influence in Hollywood, it's grip on the city was appalling. We had alderman who were literally made guys and countless politicians, judges other elected officials and cops on the take. During the Giancana era there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that the Outfit basically got JFK elected by swinging Illinois. I didn't believe it but after reading several books its fairly hard to deny.

I realize a lot of the Vegas and Hollywood stuff was done in tandem w/ NY, I believe, as well as a lot of the union stuff. So it gets blurry.

They were very powerful. Outside of the New York families they were the most powerful definitely.

I agree with what you're saying about the Outfit-related corruption in Chicago back in the day. What often gets overlooked is that New Jersey wasn't much better in terms of mob-related corruption. It had comparable influence in the Democratic party. And in New York, Frank Costello was as influential as any "connection guy" ever was in Chicago.

The New York and Chicago families, as well as several others, had interests in Las Vegas up through much of the 1960's. That, of course, was when many sold out to Howard Hughes and others. I think Chicago and some of the other Mid-west families maintained a presence there longer with the Argent-owned casinos later on.

The unions, on a national level, was definitely a cooperative thing. I've always suspected inter-family cooperation on things like the unions, open territories like Vegas, etc. was a big reason why the Genovese family had the "messegaro" (sp) position with Chicago.

Yes, I've never doubted they cooperated a lot. That is interesting about New Jersey. I am mostly interested in Chicago because when I read about it I know the streets, neighborhoods, etc. Plus the history of the mafia in NY is so big, I would never get my head around it. Chicago is enough.

it's documented that chicago was able to control las vegas while new york had to share a much smaller atlantic city. that means chicago was powerful enough to tell new york that las vegas belongs to chicago and new york agreed. of course chicago wasn't as powerful as all 5 families put together but they had more clout than atleast 3 of the new york mobs

@cookcounty - good to see another Windy City guy in the house... welcome!

This is a really good post but Richard M Daley should get the credit for JFK in Illinois.

Well the fact that al capone could never retaliate against the guy who sliced his face with a razor because lucky luciano sided with the guy who cut capone tells me, its not much of a debate..even though chicago was very powefrul !!

That was was pre 1920s though. Were talking 40s through 60s

Las vegas is a valid point ..chicago was respected enough by the NY families to more or less stay away..I just know that later in years, the feds had fat tony salerno on tape telling someone that KC reports to chicago, and chicago reports to us..and angelo lonardo testified that NY was the power..but i think as far as owning politicans, cops and judges etc..that's probably where they were more equals !!

[quote=DiLorenzo]Well the fact that al capone could never retaliate against the guy who sliced his face with a razor because lucky luciano sided with the guy who cut capone tells me, its not much of a debate..even though chicago was very powefrul !! [/quote


What's the story there? Who was the guy and how did lucky stop caliber from soon anything to him. They don't seem to get along in boardwalk empire that's 4surem

Capone grabbed a ny wiseguy's sisters azz, and he slashed capone across the face..apparently luciano had this guy's back..i forget which book i read that in ..might have been ''under the clock'' by william balsamo but i'm not sure !!

Back in 1917 young burly Al Capone was working at the Harvard Inn on Coney Island for Frankie Yale.Frankie Yale was a mob boss in New York.
On one particular evening back in 1917, a New York hood by the name of Frank Galluccio entered the dance hall/ speakeasy with his sister Lena and his date by the name of Maria Tanzio.
Al Capone was a bouncer/waiter at the Inn.
Al noticed Galluccio's young sister and began smiling at her. Lena became annoyed and embarrassed at Capone's constant staring that she asked her brother Frank to kindly ask Capone to stop it. Frank was just about to ask Capone to stop when Capone leans over to Lena and tells her "Honey, you got a nice ass and I mean that as a compliment, believe me"

Frank hears this, and goes ballistic. He quickly tells Capone that he won't take this shit from anybody and demands that Capone apologize immediately to his sister or else.

Al tells Frank with his arms extended "Come on buddy, I'm only joking"
Galluccio responds "This is no fucking joke! " Capone at this moment stops smiling and comes charging at Galluccio who quickly takes out a pocket knife and slashes Capone three times.
He aimed for the neck, but got his face instead as Galluccio had sveral drinks that evening.
Capone required up to 30 stitches at Coney island hospital. After the incident, Galluccio had a sitdown with the New York bosses. Capone was called upon and warned by the underworld not to attempt retribution for that slashing as Capone was at fault for insulting Galluccio's sister. Capone agreed and apologized for insulting his sister. Galluccio did feel bad for scarring Al, but did what he felt was right in protecting his sister's honor.

Al later told reporters his scars were acquired from the great war or from some barber as a young child. He applied talcum powder everyday to soften the glow of those scars and always preferred to take photos on his right side. His scars were as follows;

One oblique scar of 4" across cheek 2" in front of left ear
One vertical scar of 2 and a half inches on left jaw
One oblique scar of 2 and a half inches 2 "under left ear on neck.

Some unscrupulous newspapers and magazines even made his scars seem bigger to make Capone look more ruthless. Newspapermen dubbed him Scarface, but none of them would dare say it to his face.


http://www.myalcaponemuseum.com/id108.htm

Thanks DD

There's no way to measure; people just say whoever they have an affinity for. Who wielded the most power? Who made the most money? Who was smarter? Who dominated a city the most? Who listened to who?

I doubt that at its peak anyone was making more money than Chicago, wielded more influence, dominated the workings of a city more, and I don't think Giancana or Accardo would have let anyone else tell them to pay so much as a parking ticket.

But I'm from Chicago!

By the time New York and Chicago came to that agreement, the NY families had already sold off most of their interests in Las Vegas anyway. And what remained they kept. Chicago wasn't "telling" New York anything.

You know what it is? None of the guys from ny have any illusions of grandeur about our "home town family" to bother arguing such a point. If you are remembered by what you left behind, chicago is right there with the Novajos.... They are confined to a small area and left to make money one or two ways. Rave all you want about Capone, Accardo, or Giancana, what did they leave behind? Sorry if i come off as rude.

Then again im not even from NY

Eh none of your guys are as famous as ours. For whatever reason. Like I said, there are a million ways to measure it. You would have to define the question and then ask a real historian.

True. Like i say, there are valid points to both sides of the arguement, but frankly my dear i dont give a damn

While Capone is certainly the most famous gangster in history, nobody else in Chicago was any more famous as any NY guy.

Well...you could be right. No way to tell. In no particular order: Capone, Nitti, Luciano, Lansky, Giancana, Segal, Moran, Accardo and because they are contemporaries Gotti and Gravano.

But who the hell knows and I could be forgetting some obvious mentions. Just a wild guess.

I'm from NY so I hate saying this but Chicago is much stronger right now and closer to the traditional structure. Chicago got Kennedy elected in the 1960's and Obama in 2008. NY has trouble taking care of the local politicians. Besides, the first time one of the outfit's members turned states evidence was just a few years back. They've hat rats in NY ranks for decades.

There's little doubt that the two biggest New York families, the Genoveses and Gambinos, were bigger and stronger than the Outfit. But to say that the smaller New York families were always bigger and stronger than the Outfit is highly questionable. It think the Outfit from the 1950s to 1980s was comparable to the Bonanno, Lucchese and Colombo families in numbers, and I'd even say that they were relatively stronger, considering that the Outfit controlled an entire city and much of the Western United States.

Another thing to consider, is that the Outfit had the five separate crews. Each crew was basically an independant unit with it's own boss- i.e Five Families. The strongest crew boss was the overall boss. Supposedly, Taylor St. under Giancana was a powerhouse in their day. VERY powerful. How to compare to NYC, I don't know.

I can look up the size of the Capone mob and revenue estimates later. I forget offhand, but they are out there.

I suppose if you could get a reliable figure for size and estimated revenue of the Outfit under Capone and, later, under Accardo/Giancana, and compare it to the size/revenue of the most powerful NY family at its peak or peaks, you would have an answer in one sense.

And you will never be able to take away one point of pride: It was US who the CIA decided to bungle the Castro assassination and Bay of Pigs with!

So take that!

sounds like an excuse as to why chicago ran vegas and new york didn't

You can keep playing the dick-measuring games all you want. Some of us don't have an agenda to root for a certain family like it's our favorite sports team but actually go with facts.

chicago ran vegas in the 70s-mid80s.....FACT

Agreed. But it's not because they forced the NY families out or kept them out. And when we're talking about "running Vegas" in the 1970's and early 1980's, it was the Argent casinos, as well as the Tropicana. And that involved the a few Midwest families involved in the skim - Chicago, Milwaukee, Kansas City, and Cleveland.

Lol! NY was the most powerfulest! Fuck chicago!

spoken like a true citizen of the garden state

chicago was the bully of the midwest and the west, the five familes were the bullies of the northeast. sure the five combined families of new york were more powerful than the syndicate. but you're misinformed if you think chicago wasn't as powerful as one of the larger new york families on an individual level

Im kiddin you ya moron. I dont give a rats ass about this shit... You come off as the biggest tool. "My familys better than ur family"! Ivys right, ur rooting for these guys like its bears/giants in the NFC championship.... Ur pride is hurt if someone says otherwise LOL. And i aint from jersey ya toothless bum.

Not fair, Skinny. I'm told that he has a tooth.

Singled toothed bum then.

But in reality, in terms of money and territory the 5 families weren't doing it like the CHICAGO OUTFIT!!! TRUTH

I don't get it. Your saying numbers of guys make mob LOL!!! Chicago ran midwest Parts of florida Las Vegas where was New York, HAD MOBS IN OTHER STATES WORKING FOR THEM. CHICAGO KNEW HOW TO STAY LOW FROM HEAT until recently. New York no loyalty people always snitching to avoid life sentences!!!

And New Yorkers are biased!

Almost tired of this, isn't Chicago called the second city?

All due respect to Tony Accardo

LOL FUCK YOU PERSONALLY. TELL ME HOW ALL OF Y'ALL SNITCHES WHEN Y'ALL RUN Y'ALL COURTS??? WHEN Y'ALL MAKE 100000000'S A YEAR?? HOW DID THE OUTFIT STAY OUT OF PRISON UNLIKE NY. IT SAY U FROM JERSEY SO YOU JUST DICK-RIDE NEW YORK HUH????

Capone hands down was making more. Outfit today are still eating off money from late 20's 30's

New York has always had a thousand times the personnel, also all the cases tells you ALOT more going on.

Please stop the Vulgar language, I'm a Morman Mister!

ny has always had huge operations going on in nj, mass, conn, and florida, with some small time things going on in arizona and california that have died out. when did the outfit ever have anything big going on in florida? in my short time on these forums, i've come to realize that the chicago fanboyism is a very serious disease, and there is sadly no cure for most!

They did in the 20s with Capone but I think that's it

Bigger and stronger how Ivy???? That's how heat is cause you don't need 70 made man running around that 70 mouths ready to tell. Who was making more money Ivy i know do you???? WHERE WAS NEW YORK WHEN LasVegas was making the Outfit profits out the roof Where was new york when we had LA. The OUTFIT TRIED TO CONTROL JFK FOR CRYING OUT LOUD HIM NOT AGREEING WITH TERMS IS WHAT, WELL LOOK AT HIM NOW. marilyn monroe, frank Sinatra fuck with the OUTFIT

Come on man facts are facts Agreed SiclianJohn. I live HERE I DON'T SEE OBAMA ENFORCING NO TYPE OF PLAN IN STOPPING THE CRIME OUT HERE IN CHIRAQ nickname for Chicago. WE TAKE CARE OF POLITICIANS LIKE HE SAID MANN!!!

Chicago got a lot of good press, they shared those spoils with NY! Tell me the story when Jackie Cerone had to ask permission of the Geneovese Family to sell! They had to ask ask Fat Tony NATRAUALLY! If Chicago really ran the teamsters why was Fat Tony convicted of picking Fitzsimmons to run it?

All i can say is watch documentary's or something get some knowledge in your head be for you make a bonehead comment.

Have you thought about changing your screen name to 'Madman'?

All I can say is go read indictments or some factual documents. Not a fantasy skewed documentary! Should I watch Analyze This after those documentaries?

for all of you chicago posters who come on here guns blazing from the start, take a step back and notice how a poster like Mark conducts himself, with class. i almost feel bad for him in a way seeing all of you lunatics running wild here spouting your nonsense, and giving a city with such a rich history a bad name. try sticking with the facts, and avoiding the silly personal insults as they really do your credability no favors. if you have some info on a specific person or racket, than please share it, but cease with the broad "chicago is the strongest" statements without anything to back up your claims besides your OPINION!

LOL NY NJ, MASS, CONN, AND FLORIDA

CHICAGO OUTFIT PRESIDENTS ex. JFK LAS VEGAS, SOUTH FLORIDA USED CUBA AS TRAFFICKING, LA Movie studios, Memphis, Kansas, Iowa, Nebraska,

facts is facts man
PS PLEASE STOP ACTING LIKE FIVE FAMILIES WHERE WORKING TOGETHER TO EVEN IF THEY DID DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING BUT STILL

WHAT MADE NEW YORK SO DIFFERENT THAT THEY WHERE MORE POWERFUL. WHAT THE 5 FAMILIES WORK AS A TEAM!!! "SON OPEN YOUR EYES CAN'T YOU SEE" NEW YORK MOB MEMBERS KILLED EACH OTHER OFF!!! Chicago knew how to stay low unlike you know but umm.

Lol facts vs Die hard New York dickriders

I can safely say you're the one who's a bonehead. When the hell will we get rid of these Chicago fan boys? And please stop with the all caps that's really annoying and unnecessary

East don't waste your time on this crackhead

No mas, es loco!

I DON'T THINK A 18 YEARS AL CAPONE WITH BIG BALLS WAS EVEN IN CHICAGO AT THE TIME DICKFACE!!!! OPEN YOUR EYES SON CAN'T YOU SEE. IT WAS AT THIS POINT THAT AL LEARN A LESSON CONTROL TEMPER AND WAS TAKEN IN TAUGHT THINGS THAT WOULD CHANGE HIM INTO BECOMING THE BIGGEST MOBSTER OF ALL TIME.

NOW REPLY BACK IF YOU THINK Frank Gallucio WOULD PUNCH BIG AL WHILE WITH THE OUTFIT

Maydman, I like you! You got spirit! Im starting a new business in New York. It's called NYC Suicide Bombing. I want you to be my first employee! I'll strap you up good! You get paid in the after life! All the CAPS you desire!

At the end of the day how old was al /?????
Reply back with your answer i know do you.
What did al go on to do after this incident???
Reply back with your answer i know do you
Do you think Frank Gallucio would slash his face after Al Capone joined mob???

YOUR FUNNY I LIKE YOU

To be honest I never remember something I can look up! Albert Einstien gave me that advice, ah another great resident of NYC.

And I really could care less, he ran from NYC scared, played in the minor leagues! Then died a horrific death! Cute pictures of him and his syphilis! Great poster boy for your Outfit

Listen kid you gotta stop with the all caps. You got something to say, say it courteously and without insulting people. You come off as a five year old on a computer.

Listen kid next time reply to me instead of posting it and me having to come find out your sneak dissing. Since that being done I don't think i even have to insult you not worth it

Maydman, two rules! Limited caps and pay homage to Fat Tony Salerno!

May, you've been here for a whole 90 minutes and have already managed to stink up the jernt. Not a good start. If you're here to start a pissing contest between NY and Chicago the arguments have been done before, and quite frankly they're boring. Go elsewhere. If you want to participate in decent discussions, feel free to hang out, but be respectful of others. Your choice.

I've got nothing to say, but it's OK
Good morning, good morning...

He keeps saying SON and claiming to be for the go but isn't a New York thing to call someone SON?

No we say bro! Thats basketball talk!

New York basketball talk?

Southern wigga talk

Goddamn I hate that shit lol

Its an expression.. sarcastically saying to a friend " See me Son"

Nope.... He said yall. Its a done deal. Hes a hillbily!

Probably some toothless redneck sitting on his front porch rocking chair with a sawed off shotgun and a six pack of Coors. The keg is located where his stomach should be

ive noticed that the philly fanboys arent far behind as well

We say both, well we used to say son much more often especially on the streets in the 90s/2000s but bro has taken its place for the most part

Fat Tony fan boys are the worst of all!

Bro thats the life!

Comparing apples to apples and going by the latest FBI estimates, even the smallest NY family is four times the size of the Outfit.

Vegas? Since we're going way back in time (Outfit fanboys often have to do that) the Genovese family rivaled Chicago in Vegas up through much of the 1960's. But after that, Chicago was certainly the dominant family in town. However, while control of a Las Vegas casino is glamorous, and certainly one of the more famous parts of mob lore, the skim from the Argent casinos and the Tropicana in the 1970's and 1980's wasn't that much. At least if you go with the figures Angelo Lonardo quoted.

When Chicago had LA? Actually, LA had LA. Chicago simply had a certain degree of influence from 2,000 miles away.

Chicago may have thought it would control JFK after they swung voted for him in Illinois. But RFK going after the mob with a vengeance certainly showed they didn't. Whether they were behind the JFK assassination is another long debate.

Marilyn Monroe? Frank Sinatra? Are you kidding me?

See what I mean when I talk about these Chicago guys?

All reasonably stated. But w/ Monroe and Sinatra, I'll assume you're saying "who cares."

Not much doubt they were involved with Giancana.

[quote=jonnynonos]All reasonably stated. But w/ Monroe and Sinatra, I'll assume you're saying "who cares."

Not much doubt they were involved with Giancana.

Sinatra was more fanboy than us, Monroe? Who wasnt she involved with!

Ha..just sayin'. I don't think it was a sign of their power, but she appears to have been with Giancana and there are theories that Frank Schweihs killed her.

Sinatra was the model for the singer in the Godfather...Chicago controlled the jukeboxes and the theater unions. There was no horse's head but something similar. They forced the producer to put him in From Here to Eternity, he won the Acadeny Award, his career was saved.

Chicago did that? I thought that was willie morretti or somebody from nj?

Not according to Russo.

I heard it was Willie Morretti too.

Russos full of shit

Mixed bag IMO. On one hand he used inexplicably bad sources like "Double Cross." On the other he got absolutely incredible access and conducted hundreds of interviews with people who were there first hand. Generally, he gave everything a better journalistic treatment than it normally gets. A lot of gangster books are awful because it is kind of a slum genre... for instance a book came out a couple years ago, by a major publisher, claiming Capone had nothing to do with the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. It was very badly researched, proposterous and I doubt the author himself believed his "theory." (Which was immediately exposed as ridiculous by John Binder.) However, that didn't stop it from getting very strong reviews, a ton of national press, etc.

In short, with mob stuff, people can generally write whatever they want and everyone just takes it at face value. What are the gansters gonna do, sue you? No way. And because it exists in an unkown/gray area, there is a lot of room for fudging. (As we see on these boards every day.)

Russo was definitely sensational about some things, but by and large he gave it at least a sembalance of a real journalistic treatment and so his book is better than most IMO.

Although his use of "Double Cross" as a source really has me scratching my head.

accardo would of held his own against any of the legendary new york bosses, from carlo to vito. however i believe they would of held their own also. the outfit r so strong and secretive - definitely some comparisons in this respect to the genovese's

i don't know any of your mob people so are they famous

Just Google The Chicago Outfit and start reading. There will be lots of links, so just pick one and start your journey. Wikipedia would be a good place to begin.

This is my first time posting here, my nephew told me about this question and he knew I would have to say something. I have a Master’s in criminology and have studied American organized crime extensively. I can tell you right now with all certainty that anyone who thinks the Chicago Outfit’s power only rivaled that of the “smaller” families in New York are deeply misinformed. Everyone has to remember that organized crime functions just as competing corporations. At one time Ford sold the most cars, but that isn’t so today. From 1920 to 1940 The Chicago Outfit wasn’t on the same scale as most of the New York families. However from 1945 to 1955, the Outfit’s power and influence would be comparable to many of the New York families with the exception of the Genovese, Gambino. From 1955 to 1975 the Chicago Outfit’s range had far surpassed anything in New York. The Outfit had become an international force to be reckoned with. Among the interests the Outfit had in Chicago it also included Casino and gambling in Mexico, Casinos in Iran, gun funneling and gun walking correlated with the U.S. government in central America, oversight of the illegal families in Milwaukee, Kansas City, Los Angeles, and of course Las Vegas. Their payroll included thirty circuit court judges, police and alderman in not only Chicago but Milwaukee as well. In Joe Pistone’s book, Lefty told Donnie that they have to be “careful in Milwaukee as they do not answer to anyone but Chicago and they are the most dog eat dog family”. Eventually corruption among the leadership, greed and federal indictments would significantly cripple the Outfit as by the early eighties they had lost much influence, at this time they were as relevant as any New York family. By 1990 to present they have become a very low profile organization, or as Mr. Russo says, a “pale image of what it once was”. Since 1990 the Outfit no longer even rivals the most trivial New York family. Their wealth and influence is gone forever, while they still exist it no longer compares to the organized crime in New York. But please remember at one time, it really was the most lucrative criminal empire in the entire nation……by far.

This is my first time posting here, my nephew told me about this question and he knew I would have to say something. I have a Master’s in criminology and have studied American organized crime extensively. I can tell you right now with all certainty that anyone who thinks the Chicago Outfit’s power only rivaled that of the “smaller” families in New York are deeply misinformed. Everyone has to remember that organized crime functions just as competing corporations. At one time Ford sold the most cars, but that isn’t so today. From 1920 to 1940 The Chicago Outfit wasn’t on the same scale as most of the New York families. However from 1945 to 1955, the Outfit’s power and influence would be comparable to many of the New York families with the exception of the Genovese, Gambino. From 1955 to 1975 the Chicago Outfit’s range had far surpassed anything in New York. The Outfit had become an international force to be reckoned with. Among the interests the Outfit had in Chicago it also included Casino and gambling in Mexico, Casinos in Iran, gun funneling and gun walking correlated with the U.S. government in central America, oversight of the illegal families in Milwaukee, Kansas City, Los Angeles, and of course Las Vegas. Their payroll included thirty circuit court judges, police and alderman in not only Chicago but Milwaukee as well. In Joe Pistone’s book, Lefty told Donnie that they have to be “careful in Milwaukee as they do not answer to anyone but Chicago and they are the most dog eat dog family”. Eventually corruption among the leadership, greed and federal indictments would significantly cripple the Outfit as by the early eighties they had lost much influence, at this time they were as relevant as any New York family. By 1990 to present they havebe come a very low profile organization, or as Mr. Russo says, a “pale image of what it once was”. Since 1990 the Outfit no longer even rivals the most trivial New York family. Their wealth and influence is gone forever, while they still exist it no longer compares to the organized crime in New York. But please remember at one time, it really was the most lucrative criminal empire in the entire nation……by far.

Excellent post, kwh, I agree that Chicago was right up there with the Genovese and Gambinos from the 1940's to the 1970's. They stretched from Florida to California and were international. Strawman and Gambat crippled them along with the deaths of guys like Ricca, Accardo, and Humphreys. The beginning of the end was when DiFronzo took over. If James Marcello hadn't been sent away, things would be different.

Poisoning isn't Schweih's MO. She would have been hanged or disappeared. Maybe killed in a fire. That had to be the work of Uncle Sam.

It was NJ that kick started and saved Sinatra's career. He did have connections to Chicago guys who no doubt helped his career along, but it was mainly NJ. Frankie was born and raised in Jersey

Years ago, during my father's time, there were 6 groups who were on the same level that controlled the American Mafia.
They were the New York 5 Families and the Chicago Outfit.
This was all true up until around 1985. After 1985, all the families took a hit but the Chicago Outfit took a much bigger hit and went down to a much lower level because of the Strawman Case, R.I.C.O., & Attrition.
The Outfit started their decline in 1986 and slowly went downhill. Then, to add insult to injury, in the later years DiFronzo Brothers, Lombardo, Andriacchi & D'Amico all retreated.
Also, Jimmy Marcello is gone and he could have jump started the Outfit to a certain degree.

What you have in 2013 is a football team still on the field, hoping to not get beat too badly, with the 2nd string trying to operate the ONCE GREAT Offense because the first string quit.

Chicago; do you think that losing Pat Marcy and his connection to the judges/politicians was the real big blow to the Outfit in terms of big-time power? I was just watching a documentary about (the rat) Cooley the other day.

Was Marcy really made or is that just more Bill Roemer bullshit? Both Robert Cooley and Corbit say he was just a "very trusted associate".

Perhaps Chicago or some of the New York guys can comment about the Ebolis - Tommy who was the front man for the Genovese Family and his son Louie "The Mooch" who was made into the Chicago Outfit. I remember READING (not hearing) that when Tommy was murdered in the early 70's, Louie threatened some Genovese guys that he figured hit his father and that they considered sending a hit squad to Chicago to knock him down but that Joey Aiuppa protected Louie and kept him safe and in hiding..Can anyone elaborate on that???

I read a similar story that indicated Louie "The Mooch" was going to NY to make things right, but was ordered by Accardo not to go. The reasoning was that the hit was a "normal purging."

I'm beginning to wonder if any of these stories are credible. It's really discouraging to spend hours, days, weeks, etc., reading and find that about half of the information is not accurate.

Very discouraging.

What I do know, Gary Martin is that it was Aiuppa who was close to Louie Eboli and not Accardo. Aiuppa was from Melrose Park and so was Louie's mother. I can promise you that Melrose was a close, tight-knit Italian neighborhood then. It makes sense a son would want to avenge his father. Aiuppa had no kids of his own and was kind of a father figure to Louie so it kinda makes sense it would be he and not Accardo that would protect him and talk sense into him at the same time.

Auippa Loved the Mooch. Actually, The Mooch belonged to Lombardo (Grand Ave). He used to control the machines in Melrose Park Franklin Park etc. After the Mooch died, it went to Cicero.

Tony Pro, Yes, Marcy was made. He was always direct with the top Bosses. He had a few soldier/associates working under him in his crew that would make deliveries (Bribes).

Guys like him were made men who dealt with all different made men across the Board in Chicago.

Chicago was incredibly powerful but they reported into the Genovese and NY so I don't get what the argument is . The NY man power is just unmatched , NY, NJ , CT can just support much more gangsters than Chi, NY gangster murder rate was very high and there were always replacements. I mean its NY and I'm not from NY. Just the NY drug $ probably was on par with all Chi rackets

Of all the families I actually think the luchesse were the most underrated family back in the day , they were a powerhouse with a ton of killers .

DB, Years ago Chicago was ALLIED with the Genovese Family. They didn't report to them, they were ALLIES. Other than that, I agree with you.

Well I don't know personally , just repeating what was said on wiretaps.

Your probably right but I also think Genovese had the final word , especially unions where they were probably aligned best

Chicago is right. The Chicago boss had a seat on the Commission just like the New York bosses and were equal. Its connection to the Genovese Family went way back to the connection between Capone and Joe Masseria. The Genovese Family had an emissary to Chicago because of their closeness: Gaetano Ricci (AKA Tony Gobbels). In the 1960s the Outfit became less involved with Commission because it was almost exclusively focused on New York issues. Chicago was big enough that it didn't need New York.

Maybe the poster Chicago can answer questions about how the Outfit related to New York after the 1960s, but to me it seems that it focused on the Midwest and the West and had no interest in East Coast matters.

Great post.

Why the fuck would Accardo or Giancana or Capone or Humphries "report" to anyone?

Was NY gonna send a mercenary team out to whack everyone?

Was Chicago kicking cash up to NY

Who did the CIA approach to help with Castro and the Bay of Pigs?

Chicago never reported to NY. They worked with the Genovese on many ventures and on control of the national unions, especially the Teamsters. The Genovese had their messenger to Chicago and the Outfit used Cleveland guys to deliver messages to NY.

So according to you the Outfit's was at the height of its power between 1955 and 1975? I was under the impression that they had a hard time in the 1960s, being prosecuted by the Kennedys and losing their casinos to Howard Hughes.

After The Al Capone Days, The Outfit's peak in manpower was probably bewtween 1945 and 1965. All of the Taylor st. men had pretty much graduated into the Outfit by that time.

Faithful1, To answer your question. Chicago was allied with the very powerful Genovese Family. That's who they dealt with in New York. If anybody from Chicago went to New York on occasion, that's who they would see. I never heard about them seeing the Gambinos or anyone else.

It was understood that the relationship was between Chicago and The Genovese's and to be honest, both sides valued it. the Genovese's had an edge over the other 4 families having Chicago as their ally. Chicago had the same advantage having a powerhouse like the Genovese's as their ally.
During The Giancana reign which lasted about 8 years, Sometimes Mooney went to New York with Joey Glimco. Glimco was a strong made guy who was involved with the Unions and was direct with Mooney.

In the later years, Cerone would sometimes go to New York with Willie Messino, his driver & Bodyguard. Willie was very proud to go. I remember him saying to a couple of the other guys that he liked it that the Genovese top men saw that he was Jack's man.

The Genovese Family had a smaller type of partnership in some way with Chicago in Las Vegas that I never really understood. None of the other Families, only the Genovese's.

So, as you can see, there was no big competition really between New York and Chicago because Chicago was in with the Genovese Family. The Genovese Family liked Chicago better than they liked the Bonanno's. Far better.

The only completion I see is from a couple of delusional posters on this forum. LOL

Chicago,

Sorry if you answered this already, but what are your thoughts on who killed Giancana?

And how about the Bay of Pigs/JFK/Monroe stuff?

What you say would make sense however the Kennedy witch hunt included a very broad variety of Organized Crime, although we all know today Giancana and Marcello were at the top of his list. By the way, Marcello, was one of the most influential bosses during this era. Anyways, while the Outfit had a legal war I can assure you the bottom line did not suffer. Yes the mob sold out of many casinos and made a fortune, but the outfit also hung on to few interests, the most famous being the Stardust. Aside from the casino business, the Outfit also controlled all typical organized crime in Las Vegas as well. It was also during this era Mr. Roseli brokered gun funneling programs in central America, while Mr. Giancana brokered gun funneling programs in the Middle East, ahhh the great proxy war era. I was also informed once by the Lebanese consulate, the Chicago Outfit had millions invested in Beirut, Lebanon....hidden in their banks as well as bankrolling major casinos similar to their holdings in Iran. I can seriously go on and on, and I am really just touching the surface of one area. We studied this organization, as there has been and most likely will be nothing ever more like it in this country. The Outfit was the epitome of a finely tuned streamlined business....but the catch was, the whole show was illegal. Fascinating to say the least.

jonnynonos, I don't know who pulled the trigger. I just know it was not my father. He saw Mooney earlier in the evening on that June night in 1975. He loved Mooney. Auippa/Cerone would never have trusted him to do the job. He would have warned Mooney.
I don't know who actually pulled the trigger but I can tell you that Dominic Blasi set it up because he went over there afterwards.

If I had to TAKE A GUESS, it was Dominic Blasi who also pulled the trigger. He was presently the driver bodyguard for Accardo and was direct with Auippa/Cerone. He fit nicely into the new regime. My father had to leave town for awhile. It was a terrible time.

Very true. What good is the body if the head is decapitated? Hard to enforce protocol or expand influence when the "home base" has been sacked. That's the problem every criminal organization has, especially in this country. The Mafia, or in Chicago's case the Outfit will never be what they were. There's a bigger power in the game now, the Federal Government. I can guarantee that our Government has become more detrimental to the average persons' daily life than the Mob ever could have been. Corruption in any society is inevitable, you guys might think I'm nuts.....but there were plenty of times when the Mob has been necessary.

The largest Mafia Group in the world has traditionally been non Italian and sitting somewhere within the Government.

Yawn.

Nice

he must have been away for too long

he shouldn't have let that mothafucka in his house if he's driving accardo around

Thanks for answering our questions Chicago. I know some of it's probably repetitive but you're a credit to boards as we micks would say.

Blasi was also Mooney's chauffeur and gopher before Sam went away. That's why Blasi is such a top suspect, he's probably one of the only people he would trusted enough to let in to the house and turn his back on.

Thanks Tony Pro, I just don't respond to Cook County anymore because he says stupid things on purpose for attention. In addition, he knows nothing about the Outfit or he would have known how close Giancana and Blasi were for many years. LOL.

What exactly were you expecting when u 'guarantee' the government is worse than the mob.
I mean seriously.

you mean how close they were before giancana went to mexico

in his absence blasi obviously got in good with accardo and company

giancana got caught slipping

Just about every publication lists three or four names associated with Sam Giancana's murder. I don't feel a need to list the names because everybody's heard them. There will probably never be a clear- cut answer.

One matter that is very troubling is the follow-up investigation, or the absence of an investigation. Since muder is not a federal offense, the responsibility to investigate fell to local authorities. NOT SO. Giancana's was testifying as a federal witness whether he liked it or not. Federal authorities had every legal right to look into this murder. There was what I would call a cursory investigation and not much more. Some leaders in congress called for a "complete and total" investigation. Never happened.

The follow-up investigation of Giancana took on the smell of a seven day old gutted sea bass. The same can be said for the murder of Johnny Roselli.

Cook County, Giancana joined the Vice Lords when he came back to Chicago. That's why he was slippin.'

naw that wasn't it

he wasn't thinking about being top boss the night before mexico extradited him

then he gets back and thinks he's gonna take over just because

arrogance was his downfall

AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOLOLOL !!!!!!!! Cmon Chicago I figured it would've been the Players, Park Boys or even the old Taylor Street Jousters...:)

What about Spilotro? I think Corbitt said in his book that Hy Larner may have ordered Spilotro to hit Giancana.

Lebanon, Iran, Israel, Panama, Costa Rica, Spain, Aruba all had Outfit influence at one point. Central America into the 1990s. Is any of it left other than Aruba?

Hy Larner could not have ordered Spilotro to go to the bathroom.
Where do you get such ideas? Corbitt would never say such a thing because it is ridiculous. You must have misread it.

Anyway, Aruba is about it to my knowledge.
Stop reading so many books. LOL.

First of all it's a little bit of an unequal comparison to compare the Chicago Outfit to the NY mob. Chicago is one organization whereas as N Y is made up of 5 families. However, with that said Chicago was still just as if not more powerful than NY. When Frank Sinatra's son was kidnaped and he paid the ransom and he thought the kidnappers double crossed him he was about to call Sam Giancana for help not anyone from the NY mob. It was the Chicago Outfit that pulled of the assistant ion of President Kennedy. There are many many more examples from history that show the far reaching power of the Chicago Outfit. Even though they are smaller and operate in a smaller city than the NY mob there power is about equal if not more than the 5 NY families

Policy King, When we're talking about Chicago and New York, we have to compare Chicago ONE ON ONE with each of the New York families. You are correct.

That being said, Chicago and the 5 Families were basically all on an equal basis ONE ON ONE years ago.
The Genovese Powerhouse Family was ALLIED with Chicago giving them an edge over the other 4.

Flash forward to 2013.
Genovese
Gambino
3 other N.Y.Families.

Now, down here would be the other 5 remaining Families in America. Chicago, New Jersey, Philly, New England & Detroit.

Note: Chicago would be in better shape if the first string team had not retreated years ago.

There you have it: Reality 40 years ago versus Reality today.

Granted you have the family history, but I too grew up in Chicago, albeit a little after the mob's heyday. I didn't say it was fact, just a theory that Corbitt wrote in his book. According to Corbitt, Hy Larner pretty much controlled Giancana, Las Vegas and the entire weapons/drug trade of the Outfit due to his massive political connections. I don't know if it's true or not because I wasn't around until after the Giancana hit, but why couldn't it be true?

I grew up two doors down from a guy that supposedly worked for Larner well into the 1990s. I never had much interaction as I was a kid in the 1980s, but later on heard the rumors.

Nobody ever controlled Giancana. EVER.

Did I hear that right ? Chicago power is equal to the 5 families ?

NYC is 3x the size of Chicago and GDP is probably even higher . That's not even factoring in Long Island or NJ which is the densest population in the country , and NJ mob influence is arguably the biggest in the country, or close

I think an argument can be made that Chi was on par with the Colombo's or Bonnano in certain times although it didnt quite have the man power strength of these families .

Chicago was one powerful group but they never had the man or earning power held by the Genovese , Gambino or Luchesse .

I get the whole home team thing but lets be a little realistic , lol , at least to make the discussion believable . Overall there is some good info in this thread , especially by Chicago who knows more about the Outfit then any other poster , reporter or author I know of.

As I posted before, through most of history I'd agree with DB. However from approx. 1955 to 1975 there was no criminal entity in this nation that could compare to the Chicago Outfits influence. They were streamlined and international. You could for one moment forget about Vegas, LA, KC, even Mil. The scope of the influence in central Mexico, Iran and Lebanon is staggering. As I posted before since 1990 the Outfit no longer compares to any of the families in New York as their influence has been greatly diminished, however in their glory day they were more diverse than GE

Thanks DB, Yeh, Policy King was overdoing it so I politely spelled it out more accurately. Anytime a lot of people start talking about something that is mysterious and powerful, the more they talk the bigger and bigger the exaggerations start to become with power, money etc. until it goes into non reality. Organized crime is one of the most exaggerated topics I have ever seen discussed in this Country.

Do you know that Big Bad Powerful Sam Giancana would come over to our house sometimes when I was a kid and complain about his daughter who was out of control.
Here's a guy who has been exaggerated by some people (like his brother Chuck) into the realm of non reality and yet sometimes he was just a simple guy who had trouble controlling his own daughter. That's the Sam Giancana I remember sometimes from childhood. LOL.

If you believe Russo's book, and it's pretty well sourced, it's hard to believe that any other family was as powerful as Chicao at its peak. We've had this discussion on here before. They dominated the city with corruption; you are talking about dozens upon dozens if not hundres of corrupt cops, there was at least one Alderman who was a made member of the Outfit and far more than that who were their patsies, there were countless politicians in their pocket. They controlled an absurd number of unions and their tentacles stretched to arguably dominate Vegas, Hollywood, the jukebox industry as well as, as pointed out above, a fair amount of international ventures in other countries.

It's also hard not to believe that they were at some level involved in the election of Kennedy and collaborated wth the CIA on things like the Bay of Pigs and asassination attempts on Castro.

This is not even mentioning the army of, what, thousands or tens of thousands under Capone? (It was probably a numberically superior but not as viciously subervsive a mob.)

It's not really bragging rights; Chicago's corruption is somewhat embarrassing. But it makes sense that it was easier than in other places, as it was pretty much a Wild West town in the early part of the 20th century.

This is almost like a P4P boxing debate; you'll never get a srtraight answer but in terms of scope of power I'm yet to hear a convincing argument that any organization rivaled the Outfit under Ricca/Arcaddo/Giancana/Humphries.

Obviously when it comes to today, I am probably one of those posters who would peg it as being borderline defunct.

Influence in Lebanon and Iran?

What 'influence' did the outfit have may I ask?

Did Giancana and his daughter reconcile before his murder? I remember reading about his surgery (Dr. Michael DeBakey) and refusing to allow one of his daughters to see him because she had given up custody or parental rights during a divorce.

Giancana would only allow a few people to see him. I believe you're familiar with one of those individuals.

No, they did not really reconcile, that's why she's still miserable to deal with today. She is harder than nails.

I'd argue guys like Frank Costello and Tommy Lucchese had as much political clout as anyone in Chicago ever did. New Jersey has always been just as corrupt as Illinois, and the Genovese family were the main benefactors there. People also forget that up through much of the 1960's, police corruption was widespread in NYC, with many departments on the pad.

Before the families outside the Midwest started selling their interests in the Las Vegas casinos, the Genovese family's presence there was second only to Chicago. They also had interests in Havana before Castro, as well as in Florida and Louisiana. But the casinos in any place were never the routine moneymakers that numbers and sports betting were; and nobody was bigger in those rackets than the Genovese.

I'd argue the Genovese family has always been the most powerful and diversified in terms of labor unions and legitimate industries. The ILA, the Teamsters, the Carpenters, the Mason Tenders, Fulton Fish Market, Javits Center, garbage hauling throughout the tri-state area, trucking, construction, the entertainment business, vending, the garment center, Times Square adult businesses, restaurants and nightclubs, food wholesaling, etc.

Lastly, the Genovese family had the advantage of operating from the mob's "ground zero" - New York - and represented several of the families east of Chicago on the Commission. And the east coast was always more important than anything out west.

Also, the Genoveses were running casinos in Europe just as the Outfit did in the Middle East.

And the Gambino family had set up a huge transatlantic drug network between the US and Sicily during the 1970s that generated tremendous profits. The Outfit itself was allegedly almost not involved in narcotics.

Don't forget that Chicago had Los Angeles as well. All of the major movie studios and labor unions were controlled by the Outfit with some NY help until the 1980s. Frank Buccieri ran things out in California. Underneath him were Vito Spillone, who had a small crew in LA and all the Supermob guys (Korshak, etc.).

Good argument but without some way to quantify the question I guess there will never be a definite answer.

It's above my head.

I'd argue guys like Frank Costello and Tommy Lucchese had as much political clout as anyone in Chicago ever did. New Jersey has always been just as corrupt as Illinois, and the Genovese family were the main benefactors there. People also forget that up through much of the 1960's, police corruption was widespread in NYC, with many departments on the pad.

Before the families outside the Midwest started selling their interests in the Las Vegas casinos, the Genovese family's presence there was second only to Chicago. They also had interests in Havana before Castro, as well as in Florida and Louisiana. But the casinos in any place were never the routine moneymakers that numbers and sports betting were; and nobody was bigger in those rackets than the Genovese.

I'd argue the Genovese family has always been the most powerful and diversified in terms of labor unions and legitimate industries. The ILA, the Teamsters, the Carpenters, the Mason Tenders, Fulton Fish Market, Javits Center, garbage hauling throughout the tri-state area, trucking, construction, the entertainment business, vending, the garment center, Times Square adult businesses, restaurants and nightclubs, food wholesaling, etc.

Lastly, the Genovese family had the advantage of operating from the mob's "ground zero" - New York - and represented several of the families east of Chicago on the Commission. And the east coast was always more important than anything out west.

[/quote


the Chicago syndicate is responsible for the most scandalous schemes of any family

Hollywood, wire services, kennedy, castro, las vegas, etc

comparing Chicago's mob against NY's combined mobs ain't practical

there is too much crooked money to be made in Chicago for the outfit to have no clout

There's no Mob like in NYC. NYC has 5 families. Certain neighborhoods like Bensonhurst or Ozone Park are still very mafia centric, although that is changing from what I have read. In Chicago, the mob since the 1970s has been increasingly suburban and more in shadows, although of course very prevalent.

The most scandalous schemes? Whatever that means. The Outfit did extort Hollywood studios a long time ago. Kennedy and Castro are a stretch. If we want to get technical, Bugsy was responsible for Vegas and later mob families got involved.



When did I ever compare the Outfit to all 5 NY families? But if we're comparing the Outfit to the Genovese family, the Genovese operating from ground zero, in mob terms, as well as representing more important families in the east, is something to consider.



Nobody said they have "no clout." What I've been stressing for years now is the outdated notion that the Outfit continues to have a monolithic, all encompassing hold on Chicago; where nearly all crime and corruption revolve around it. The Outfit's clout, in any form you want to look at, is a tiny fraction of what it was years ago. But some people can't seem to make that leap to the 21st century, but choose to stay in the 1970's if not earlier.

@ivyleague

you know what the fuck a scandal is

kinda like when one of your neighbors get pinched for marrying six year olds

I know the definition of the word. I'm just not sure what point you're trying to make with it.

By the way, shouldn't you be holding a rally for Treyvon or something?

hey, lets keep the personal attacks off the boards there buddy! if you are unable to do so, then maybe someone will make that decision for you!

New York for the last 75 years, Chicago during prohibition.

Oh Christ, not this thread again. Not after the Blackhawks lost!



I really tickle myself sometimes.

My thoughts exactly. This can only bring out the stupid.

I guess bumping this thread is someone's sick idea of a joke.

They got our attention .

All you east coast flunkies do...what is it you call yourselves - metrosexuals? You care more about your clothes and hair than women. That's not right.

I'd still rather be a Blackhawks fan than admit I support the Rangers who almost got swept by LA. I think anyone who watches hockey would admit that had the Hawks beaten LA - and they played them far fucking better than NY and were within one game of winning the series - they would have kicked your fuckin' teeth in too pal

Where the fuck did that come from?

I WAS one of the only people on this site that you hadn't alienated.

I think he was just kidding. See what happens when this thread gets drudged up from the bowels of obscurity?

haha Come on and take a joke PB. You aren't that old and your balls aren't that sensitive when I break them over the Blackhawks. You wont ever find me getting sensitive with all the east coasters smacking down ChiTown...I just smack back harder

Okay.

My old balls are a little twisted today anyway because I'm waiting for a FedEx all day and I don't want to miss it. But I have things to do.

You know how frustrating that can be .

And that's just the thing. I NEVER smack down ChiTown. Not once in my eight years here. I don't get involved in that regional rivalry crap. Because you know what?

Sports are one thing. Even pride in local food and restaurants is understandable. But anyone who takes regional pride in his local criminals is sick in the fucking head. I repeat that. Sick in the fucking head .

So are the Gambino and Genovese families the most powerful in NY, historically?

I agree with that and well said PB. My balls get twisted personally anytime someone even says "Blackhaws" around me. I hate NY sports, but did see Jeter when he was in Chicago to play the Sox - and he's my favorite ball player and a class act.

The Chicago Mafias prime was during the Paul Ricca/Mooney Giancana era, 50s & 60s. Not during prohibition. You couldn't even call it the Outfit back then, it was a big free for all.

I would include 70s in the prime

Jesus you to? they call this morning telling me my package is coming between the hours of 3pm-6pm which is a ridiculous fucking time period, so I'm sitting at home all day long waiting for these c unts while i had a whole list of shit to do but couldn't leave and then finally 15 mins ago i get fed up with it and call and they track my order and tell me that there was a mix up and my package isn't coming until tomorrow :roll eyes: its shit like this that makes me wanna go out and do bad things to good people.

In the 1950-60's I would rank
Genovese
Outfit
Gambino

In the 1970-80's
Genovese
Gambino
Outfit

That's a weird coincidence .

They finally came at almost five o'clock, and then I had to run out to Astoria in rush hour traffic. I got lucky, though. I went around the horn (Throggs Neck to the Clearview to Northern Boulevard), and sailed right out. I caught a little traffic on the Whitestone coming home. But not as bad as I feared. But they still fucked up my whole afternoon!

Ya thats funny, a coupla schmucks waiting for a package.

The 70s was when the downsizing happened & pure Italians really began assimilating in Chicago, but yeah you could include the 70s I guess. Things were looking grim by the late 70s though. They were losing their strongholds within city limits & losing them very fast.

'55-'65 was the glory decade though.

In my view the loss of the 42 gang started a sharp decline in their power.

You mean when those guys died out?

Yeah, like I said, when Italians in Chicago began to assimilate, the Outfit began to crumble. The primary farming areas within the city limits were the Taylor Street & Patch neighborhoods. Even as early as the 70s, those areas were becoming less & less ethnically Italian.

You can blame some of that on UIC. Destroyed a lot of Taylor St

white flight hurt the mafia just as much as anything

Ehh, white flight gets over-exaggerated. There are neighborhoods all across Chicago that retain their white ethnic population.

For whatever reason, Italians in Chicago have just never been able to keep their neighborhoods in tact like they have out east. Chicago was never really known as a premier destination for Italians to begin with. The Daley family decimating the Patch & Taylor St neighborhoods didn't help either.

.

Well, that was certainly true for a long time. But the Italian neighborhoods here in New York City are greatly diminished now, too.

The spirit remains (for instance, delis and restaurants on Arthur Avenue and Mulberry Street). But the Italian American populace itself has mostly moved to the suburbs.

The reason the mob has held on longer here is because there were just so many more Italian Americans in the East to begin with.

Chicagoland has one primarily Italian neighborhood left: Elmwood Park, and more Hispanics move in every day.

.