Today Outfit's real power in Chicago ?

I saw the pilot episode of Mob Doctor, and I got curious to know what the true power dell'outfit? is reduced to only 28 made man? or is divided into 3/4 families? still strikes fear in chicago? what is its real power?

Two power bases:

Elmwood Park - Mostly infiltrated into legit business because boss John DiFronzo does not want to spend the rest of his life in prison.

Cicero - standard blue collar mob rackets; gambling and juice loans.

Originally Posted By: SilentPartnerz

Two power bases:
Elmwood Park - Mostly infiltrated into legit business because boss John DiFronzo does not want to spend the rest of his life in prison.
Cicero - standard blue collar mob rackets; gambling and juice loans.

That's it?
Wow, I never did any research on Chicago...I'm happy that I didn't waste my time.

Boardwalk Empire must make them suicidal, given the power their ancestors had.

Detective Alonso Harris from Training Day busted them all. He put cases on all those bitches.Them motherfuckers were playing basketball in Pelican Bay by the time he was finished with them.SHU program,23 hour lockdown they'll never see the light of day.King Kong aint got shit on him!

It has been discussed quite a bit. 28 made members was from years ago. Each crew operates as almost a separate family. Aiuppa set that structure up in the 80's. The Northside/Rush Street Crew and Grand Ave Crew are aligned with Elmwood Park - DiFronzo. Cicero Crew and Chinatown Crew have an alliance. There is a Chicago Heights crew as well that operates in NW Indiana and other parts of Indiana as well. Marcello from Cicero made new members before he went away. Chinatown Crew is my opinion is still very capable of violence. The Outfit still has political influence in the city and the suburbs. The Outfit maintains a lot of power through their associates. Offshore casinos, video poker machines, bookmaking, loan sharking, real estate development, restaurants, auto dealerships, nursing homes, abortion clinics, motion picture industry, construction, trucking, Chicago futures exchanges, nightclubs, unions are the rackets. They have associates in San Diego, LA, Las Vegas, Florida. Certainly not as powerful as they once were, but it is a different Outfit. I still think a lot is going on contrary to other posters.

Originally Posted By: FriedRavioliFarts

It has been discussed quite a bit. 28 made members was from years ago. Each crew operates as almost a separate family. Aiuppa set that structure up in the 80's. The Northside/Rush Street Crew and Grand Ave Crew are aligned with Elmwood Park - DiFronzo. Cicero Crew and Chinatown Crew have an alliance. There is a Chicago Heights crew as well that operates in NW Indiana and other parts of Indiana as well. Marcello from Cicero made new members before he went away. Chinatown Crew is my opinion is still very capable of violence. The Outfit still has political influence in the city and the suburbs. The Outfit maintains a lot of power through their associates. Offshore casinos, video poker machines, bookmaking, loan sharking, real estate development, restaurants, auto dealerships, nursing homes, abortion clinics, motion picture industry, construction, trucking, Chicago futures exchanges, nightclubs, unions are the rackets. They have associates in San Diego, LA, Las Vegas, Florida. Certainly not as powerful as they once were, but it is a different Outfit. I still think a lot is going on contrary to other posters.

Can you post some sources regarding their associates/members operating outside of the Mid West?

Sam Cecola in LV, Fratto cousin Valerio sp in LA, D'Amico/Dote sportsbook in Chicago lays stuff off with bookies in Florida but I don't have a name. Chris Petti was their contact out in San Diego, but he has passed. I don't know if they have a presence in San Diego.

Sorry I should have posted that Petti passed in the first post. I do not know for sure if they have associates in San Diego.

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/May-2012/The-Mobs-Last-Gasp/

THE GANG THAT WOULDN’T DIE: This month three Chicago senior citizens are set to be sentenced for an audacious plot to rob a mob boss’s home. A story of thrill-seeking, revenge, and the decline of the Outfit

By Hillel Levin

n an enclave of mostly multifamily dwellings in Chicago’s Bridgeport neighborhood, the brown-and-gray brick house stands out like a palace. Flanking the front door are opulent bow windows etched with a diamond pattern. Wood shingles cover the entrance to the driveway leading to a detached four-car garage. And it is all enclosed by a six-foot-high brick wall. To convicted drug dealer and robber Robert “Bobby” Pullia, it was a “fucking fortress.” During the spring of 2010, he had spent two weeks checking it out with a couple of other ex-cons, Arthur Rachel and Joseph “Jerry” Scalise. “It’s a fortress,” Scalise agreed, “but it’s still got windows.”

Although born with a deformed left hand—no more than a knob with a pinkie and thumb—Scalise managed to scale the wall. He discovered a door to the house that was hidden from the street. To see inside before he picked the lock, he would need to remove some glass bricks from an adjacent wall.

On two successive nights, as either Pullia or Rachel stood lookout, Scalise returned with a drill to slowly and quietly cut through the mortar around the bricks. His plan, once they got into the house, was to search behind family portraits for compartments with hidden valuables.

But before the treasure hunt could begin, the three burglars would have to do something about the home’s occupant, a 68-year-old woman. If they waited for her to go to sleep, she might wake up while they were working and call police. They had to “get her before she goes to bed,” Scalise told Rachel. On the night of April 7, the two tested a can of Mace in a supermarket parking lot.

The next evening, the three returned to the house in a white Ford Econoline van and parked nearby. This time they were dressed in black from head to toe, and they brought the Mace, a six-foot ladder, handcuffs, and various tools. While Rachel remained in the van to monitor a police scanner, Scalise and Pullia stepped out for one last round of reconnaissance before the assault.

At 8 p.m., as the house’s resident sat sipping tea in her kitchen, she was startled by a loud noise. Outside her window, FBI agents in bulletproof vests and blue jackets swarmed a stunned Scalise and Pullia from all directions. The feds nabbed Rachel back at the van.

When the U.S. attorney in Chicago, Patrick Fitzgerald, announced the arrest a week later, some remarkable facts emerged. One was that the reported age of the suspects—Pullia, 69; Rachel, 71; and Scalise, 73—exceeded that of their intended victim. While most of their contemporaries had long since downshifted into retirement, this geriatric gang had already carried out one robbery and was planning others, according to a federal complaint. (The FBI had tailed them for months and had bugged Scalise’s van.)

What’s more, the place with the brick wall wasn’t just any house. It was the family home of the late Angelo “the Hook” LaPietra, one of the most powerful and fearsome bosses of Chicago’s Mafia, known as the Outfit. Though LaPietra had died in 1999, his daughter Joanne Lascola still lived there. Lascola’s daughter Angela is married to Kurt Calabrese, a son of incarcerated Outfit boss Frank Calabrese Sr. These family ties were known to Pullia, Rachel, and Scalise because the three had long been in the Outfit themselves.

To target LaPietra’s household and put his daughter at risk was not only an affront to the memory of a past don but also an insult to the Calabrese family—offenses that would have once been unthinkable. “It’s the ultimate sign of disrespect,” says Jim Wagner, a former head of Chicago organized crime investigations for the FBI. According to FBI reports and court testimony, Scalise in particular had been considered so loyal by the Outfit’s leaders that he was reserved for their most sensitive contract killings. So why did he, and the other two, do it?

Scalise and Pullia—who earlier this year pleaded guilty to charges of racketeering, conspiracy to commit robberies, and weapons violations—aren’t talking; they have not responded to requests for interviews. Nor has Rachel, who stood trial on the same charges as the other two and was acquitted on only one gun count. Sentencing is tentatively scheduled for this month. Because they have refused to cooperate with authorities, each is expected to get ten years behind bars.

Despite the gang’s silence, a close examination of the government’s surveillance tapes and other evidence—plus interviews with friends and foes and an illuminating 2008 interview with Scalise himself—helps make sense of their methods and motivations. What emerges is not just a tale of three men who refused to fade into the sunset, but also a parallel story of a Chicago Mob that may already be in eclipse.

"The Outfit maintains a lot of power through their associates. Offshore casinos, video poker machines, bookmaking, loan sharking, real estate development, restaurants, auto dealerships, nursing homes, abortion clinics, motion picture industry, construction, trucking, Chicago futures exchanges, nightclubs, unions are the rackets."

All possible, but not a shred of evidence. A lot of these are simply businesses owned by past members or family of former Outfit members.

John DiFronzio has less pull with the motion picture industry at this point than the guy who played Belky Bartakamous.

They controlled all that through the theater unions. I don't think there are any theater unions left. If there are, Chicago is certainly not controlling them, LOL.

I don't see how this makes Chicago seem less powerful. They got caught right away and the person there was the daughter of Angelo LaPietra was was dead.

They have casino's in Aruba

No, a onetime (and I admit, possibly contemporary) associate manages a casino in Aruba.

It's of interest but hardly definitive.

True Ang is dead. But his daughter (not the one who lives in the house) is married to Kurt Calabrese, and there isn't any disputing that his dad Frank Calabrese is one of the most hard core gangsters in the city, even though incarcerated.

Not like robbing Arcaddo or anything close to it. But still probably a no-no with a strong Outfit.

Wait so the Chicago Mob's actual size is only to the nearest ten, practically 30 members and 100 associates? was it always a small family because I thought that even today it would have more membership, I read somewhere in terms of size only the Gambino's and Genovese's matched them. Obviously that must have been exaggeration.

But surely they are involved mainly in Illegal gambling, Loan Sharking, extortion plus Union frauds but can a group that small control these things in the city? I also heard of some politician protecting the Mafia's gambling rackets in the city. Not only that but four of the main panel bosses were negotiating a deal with a mayor of some town for a Casino project.

What ever they have been up to lately must be very much on the down low. Chuck Goudie has had nothing to report for a while now!

Well I guess we agree to disagree NoNos. The Outfit has casinos in Aruba. Jimmy DeLeo a former state senator has taken politicians there to vacation. John Kass used to write about this all the time. Cozzo of Grand Ave has interests there as well. The FBI thought Lombardo was hiding out there years ago. Movies in Motion and Chicago Studio Rentals is what I was referring to as far as motion picture industry. Those are Chicago based not Hollywood. Sorry for the confusion.

Interesting... I'll look for those articles.

Kurt was never really involved with the mob and what would happen when his dad went to jail?

That is the point. Today? Apparently nothing. If you would have broken into Harry Aleman's or Butch Petrocelli's daughter in law's house back in the '70s I would imagine your options would be limited to a) most reasonably killing yourself b) moving to Siberia c) getting caught and having a blowtorch taken to your nuts in a warehouse on the south side.

In terms of sheer power, the modern Outfit has to be way down on the totem pole of crime syndicates in Chicago. It's amazing that the Outfit is still functional with so few members. Their enforcement wing is probably made up of, what, 3-4 gun-toting senior citizens? How long before the Outfit goes the way of the Mickey Mouse Mafia in Los Angeles?

No I meant with his relatives involved with the mob being in jail and Kurt not being involved at all, who would do anything? Plus they got caught right away, maybe something would've happened if they didn't get caught so quickly.

The point is they weren't scared.

Who would do anything?

Ostensibly Toots Caruso is the boss of Chinatown. Oddly I don't remember his name coming up at all in Family Secrets. The only boss they ever had either Calabrese talking about was LaPietra. I guess Sr was already in jail by the time Ang died.

If that. They haven't enforced anything since 2006.

I personally think the outfit has slightly more clout than you all are giving them credit for. But that's just my opinion. There's no real way to know except speculate based on evidence of recent events. You do a good job of that no nose.

Thanks. Well, I have to admit something. Just spent the last hour reading about Mike Posner. Under the circumstances it would seem extremely likely that he is simply a front for the Outfit. No way a loser like that would get enough scratch to buy three himself. Interesting...and odd the Feds haven't gone after him.

If the info I've been reading is correct.

I do not believe it is against US law to own offshore casinos. I believe a couple of Chicago's alderman own one together.

I mean investigate the money behind him etc.

Quick question. Is there a Eastside Chicago? And back when the Outfit had 7 crews, did they had the same structure as currently?

The "east side" is the lake... no one ever says "east side." A lot of the more thriving neighborhoods are along the water or at least geographically on the eastern portion of the city... so it's almost redundant in a lot of cases to say "east side." (there are a lot of good neighborhoods in other parts of the city as well, just generalizing.)

From what I understand the crews have been really streamlined now... I don't know how many they have. Maybe three? Someone else will probably now. Many people feel Elmwood Park has been shelved so it might actually just be two or three: Chinatown, Cicero and Grand Avenue.

But I'm not sure that's correct. One of those might have been rolled into another one etc. And probably no one on this board will really know for sure.

Why would Elwood park be shelved? Difronzo leads that faction and technically he's the boss. I would think one of the smaller crews would be defunct

Cicero
Elmwood
Chinatown
Grand Ave
those are the main ones
could be smaller one like chicago heights, melrose, ect

Posner has always been involved in Outfit gambling, bookmaking, prostituion in Lake County, but as Ricobenes said not a major player. Ricobenes pissed off some posters, but I believe he was spot on in terms of Outfit knowledge in the past and current structure. Elmwood Park is not making new members and Johnny has done a good job in insulating himself from any criminal activity.

I believe the 26th Street Crew merged with Chinatown and Melrose Park crew merged with Cicero.

yeah rico knew a lot. to bad he started a lot of fights

I don't really know but that's what people say. You have to take everything you read with a grain of salt.

Last year the Trib did a piece on the state of the Outfit and an FBI agent was quoted as saying they now have "two or three" crews.

If the FBI doesn't know it's going to be the very rare Internet poster who does.

If I had to guess why Elmwood would be closed its because that is out where nearly all the old school (and just plain old) real gangsters are, like DiFronzo, D'Amico, Andriachhi and others. I expect between them they now own more than enough legit businesses and have more than enough money to not want to risk it by spending the rest of their lives in jail.

Hell if the FBI's numbers on made guys is anywhere near correct, like in the 20s, and it's also true that Mike Posner is a front for three casinos in Aruba and they also have other offshore casinos, why f$$k around with juice loans and car theft. Casinos make a LOT of money.

But that's purely conjecture.

Andriacchi is very sick with cancer and no longer in Chicago. Remember though the Outfit has always had sleepers. Tornabene was a sleeper for 30 years before the FBI knew.

Yeah but explain how he gets three or four casinos. Being a felon no less.

Aruba is corrupt. Who knows.

I know but I'm saying, without mob backing.

I think I've made it clear I am a skeptical as anyone about the outfits current power, but for some mob associate with a rap sheet a mile long to "own" four casinos seems like a fairly large coincidence.

I've never been to Chicago but find it funny that they have Italian OC operating in Chinatown. Chinatown in every other city is usually Chinese people no?

An important distinction.



Interestingly, in 2003, several members of Projectionist Union Local 110, which had past ties to the Outfit, were indicted for conspiracy and arson involving 20 incidents in movie theaters in 10 states related to labor contract disputes. However, the prosecutor said the indictment did not involve organized crime allegations.



Correct. With 25-30 made members and a little over 100 associates, the Outfit has a total manpower of about 150. By comparison, the smallest New York family (the Colombos) have around 100 made members and an estimated 500 associates - 6 times the size of the Outfit. In other words, the modern day Outfit is more comparable to the sizes of the families in New England, New Jersey, and Philadelphia than any of the NY families.



Around the time of the Family Secrets case in 2005, the Outfit was said to have the four crews you listed above - Elmwood, Grand Avenue, Cicero, and 26th Street. However, in 2011 the FBI said the Outfit was down to 2 or 3 crews.



I may be wrong but I'm not sure where these claims of "three or four casinos" comes from. As far as I know, Posner operates the Excelsior casino, which is located within the Holiday Inn Resort. The casino was formerly known as the Grand Holiday Casino when Posner purchased it in the late 1990's.

DNM - my guess is location, location, location... Chinatown is not too far from the University Village/Little Italy neighborhoods.

@IvyLeague - good to see you back posting!

Ivy I am on my phone so this is an abbreviated response but google "posner Aruba casinos" and you will see people saying the other casinos he is rumored to own. Not the NYT, but various people and sites either reporting or conjecturing.

When is the last time the FBI even chimed in on estimates of made guys? Isn't that 25-30 figure itself about 10 years old?

Even if the Outfit maintains some lingering control over projectionist unions, which I doubt, compared to the power they once wielded with people like Korshak and Rosselli, it's somewhat like saying the trailer down the street is a home and Buckingham palace is a home. Both true and substantially meaningless.

Marcello made new guys before he went away. Grand Ave crew has gambling operations in Curacao as well.

I've seen all those and, unless I'm mistaken, the idea comes from the Wikipedia article on him that says -

"Michael Posner is a businessman and casino owner in Aruba. Posner is the owner of the Excelsior, Holiday Inn and Grand Holiday Casinos."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Posner_(businessman)

Now, admittedly, I haven't done much reading on Posner over the years. There isn't much to read. But, as I said before, my understanding is that the Excelsior is the casino he operates. It is the same casino that was called the Grand Holiday Casino back in the 1990's. And this casino is in the Holiday Inn Resort. It seems that people have read these different titles and assumed there were 3 casinos.

(But maybe I'm way off.)



The 28 members figure was in 2007. And that was before Al Tornebene died.

i think a safe bet would be to say the outfit has a total manpower of close to 150, with around 30 made, although there could be a few more, as well as a number of high powered associates with "made guy" status. welcome back ivy, i though i was seeing things when i saw you had posted!

Counting living Outfit Guys, today, who are “made” and are on the street and in prison would be roughly 40 to 50, according to some of my best sources. That what Joe Fosco posted on ANP with in the last 2 years.

I've had a lot of debates about this. Seems like people on one forum or another are very quick to inflate the figures based on questionable sources. We had a specific figure (28) straight from the FBI just 5 years ago. But people didn't like that figure (like that should matter) so they look elsewhere for figures more to their liking.

Well, in my opinion, you're not going to find a better source than the FBI. Not Fosco. And not anyone on the forums. Looking at the estimates over the past 15 years or so, the 28 figure cited in 2007 seems consistent. Especially when you take into account that nearly 20 members have died since 2000.

Of course it's possible that not ever single member has been identified. And it's possible that new members have been made in the last 5 years. But that's all conjecture and doesn't warrant just adding an additional 10-20 members out of nowhere. There's not much chance of 25%-40% of an LCN family's membership flying under the radar today.

^^

Agreed 100 percent. My only comments would be: Was the number reported in 2007 or actually given by the FBI in 2007?

And that you have to figure in those who went to jail for Secrets, Sarno, Tornabre (sp), all of the ancient guys and anyone else who has died/is basically too old to be involved since then.

Sure they could have made more guys but we just don't know.

Back in 1997 we had the Chicago Crime Commission estimate 70 members. More recently we've had one FBI source cite 50 members, while another one only 25. The feds reportedly released a list of 47 current known Outfit members to the press several years ago. The prosecution cited 28 members during the Family Secrets trial. And Nick Calabrese reportedly identified 60 members.

Under Nick Calabrese's deal with the feds, is he obligated to identify/inform/and/or testify against any future indicted Outfit guys? Anybody who follows the Outfit knows that there are always guys (sleepers) that have flown under the radar for decades.

Just one point, the thing about Nick identifying 60 guys was very vaguely worded. At least in the Sun Times piece I read it in. Just to play devil's advocated, it was not entirely clear if all of the members were alive.

Mark, I believe he has to keep testifying. I am not positive but I think I remember them talking about dragging him out for Sarno but they ultimately did not.

Chinatown is right next to Bridgeport, which is probably the most "mobbed up" neighborhood in the city these days, where Caruso, Matasso and several others live. That's where LaPietra's house was, where Ronnie Jarrett was killed, where the Calabrese's often operated out of.

I don't know exactly how the Outfit muscled in on the Chinese, who are huge gamblers, but I expect that at the height of its power it was not very difficult.

Bob Cooley's book goes into depth about a few of the arrangments between the Outfit and the Chinese in Chinatown, like the Fon Long (sp), the Chinese merchant's association, which was basically its own little mob.

They also reportedly came out with a new doc on Ken Eto, but I haven't been able to find it in English.

Ivy, looks like you are corect about those multiple casino references re: Posner. They all seem to go back to that one bad source.

Interesting comment from Joe Fosco:

"Sarno was running it citywide, whether that changed after he was ordered on house arrest, I do not know. There is nothing left but a little sports betting and a small number of poker machines mainly in the south parts (the sports betting is everywhere - but nothing like 20-years ago). For the most part, you are dealing with a number of Italian-Americans that have once been connected to something powerful. Some of them are schemers, others are not. Some help others, some hurt others. They all know each other and talk about each other. Some are physically dangerous and others are not. What do we call it all? An Outfit?

The real money is made abroad in the casinos in Venezuela, Chile, Cost Erica, Aruba and other places like that. Ask DiFronzo what is going on in those places with gambling."

Not trying to be a mob apologist or anything but couldn't the 20-30 made guys be DE flatted? Isn't Chicago notorious for NOT making guys that aren't super earners or middle management?

I would like to know if Chicago even uses a ceremony to make guys anymore. They didn't at first, then did in the 70-80's, now who knows.

I think it all depended on who is/was "steering the ship" at the time.

Agreed Mark. I believe Capone had new members put hands on a Bible, Giancana had big dinner parties, Aiuppa was the boss who used the traditional Cosa Nostra ceremony with gun, knife, holy card etc. I believe Chicago making ceremony of '83 was very formal with all of the leadership present and Tornabene was the MC, but Aiuppa was the boss where as other ceremonies have not included all of the bosses. Ceremonies have taken place at Como Inn which was a popular restaurant but now closed, Spavone's another restaurant, and in a basement of suburban Oak Brook home. I don't know when the last ceremony was and how formal it was.

I thought Carlisi was the guy who started the "traditional" making ceremony, is this true?

I'm not certain who did what but I heard that it was always up to "the old man"...

when was the last bunch of made guys in the windy city?

Good question... for someone far more knowledgeable than me.

dont look at this skinny guinea.lol.

just kidding.lol. im about as skinny as rosie o donnell.lol.

or is it 'donald'?fucking micks.

The Irish guys at work have a saying... "Never trust an Italian with a waist size under 38 inches."

well there you go,im a '40'.lol.

I heard that!

It's pretty much the same thing. The feds are going to cite the most recent information they have. The statement they made sounded like it was present tense...

"We have 28 made members of the Chicago Outfit roaming in the Chicagoland area."



I'm aware of all this. In fact, I'm the one who has repeatedly cited all this on one forum or another.

The 1997 figure of 70 members was simply an estimate by the CCC.

A poster over on the RD talked about a list of 47 names of Outfit members the FBI released to the local press in 1999. That figure appears to be more exact than the CCC estimate and should probably hold more weight.

50 members were cited by FBI sources in articles in 2000 and 2002. Probably a rounded number close to that more exact 47 figure from 1999.

25 members was cited in a 2005 article and 30 members was cited in a 2007 article. The more specific (i.e. not rounded) figure of 28 members was also cited in 2007.

Despite some discrepancy along the way, I see consistency in the fact that the FBI apparently had a list of 47 specific names in 1999. From that time to 2007, 18 known members had died and 1 had flipped = leaving 28 members.

That 60 members figure was in a small blurb by Chicago Sun Times writer covering the Family Secrets trial. Considering the fact that it's double the information from the FBI, I'm inclined to think that the guy was using "members" in the generic sense, as journalists often do when writing about the mob.



True but it's likely a small number. There's not much of a chance of a third of the family successfully flying under the radar.



There are a number of possibilities as to why there are reportedly only 25-30 made members in the Outfit. But in the end, the total manpower is comparative to the families in New England, New Jersey, and Philadelphia. The member-to-associate ratio is just a little different in Chicago.

Not that I put much stock in associate estimates put if we're comparing apples to apples...



Others have commented that it was probably Aiuppa.



A guy on the RD said Marcello held a ceremony in 2003 and Sarno had one in 2009. Not sure about the source on that but it's possible. What I take exception to is people using this as a reason to just add an additional 10, 20, or 30 guys to the Outfit's membership. People take those kind of liberties and, before you know it, all sorts of numbers are being quoted and they're eventually taken as fact through sheer repetition.

My assesment on the Outfit is like Ivy's: small in manpower (if you don't count associates) but stronger in terms of rackets and overall power. You can't tell me the skeleton crews running the New England and Philadelphia families carry more clout than John DiFronzo and his goons. They own one of the largest waste hauling companies in Chicago, probably have some Union pull (not much), still do the usual loansharking, gambling, etc, extortion, offshore Casino's and other legit stuff. And though they are nowhere NEAR as powerful as they were even ten years ago, it's my understanding they are more solidly entrenched in Chicago than in Boston, Philly or NJ. To me they are the most viable family outside of New York.

Two telling statements are in the article below. After the Family Secrets case, Ronald Goldstock, former director of the New York State OC task force, said "What you're seeing now in Chicago and elsewhere are mopping-up operations."

Another part of the article says, "Veteran mob watchers in Chicago say that city's criminal organization has not yet plunged to the Philadelphia organization's level."

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr/28/nation/na-mob28


While I would also put Outfit above those other families, I wouldn't put it way above. There's not just similarity in terms of total manpower and scope of operations. If you look at the Chicago mob cases over the last decade, and compare them to New England or Philadelphia, they're remarkably similar. Much more similar than to the New York families, which goes against the perception some still have that Chicago is almost like the sixth family, i.e. on the level of the NY families.

Good article Ivy. And no doubt Chicago isn't the sixth Family, I would just say due to the fact that the Outfit was so powerful in the past it can still wield a small bit of that power. But not much. The heaviest thing in the ongoing Philly trial is probably the fact that Uncle Joe ripped off a Teamsters health pension fund. That's small potatoes compared to what DiFronzo has under his belt.

I'm no fanboy. It interests me of course. But while they aren't New York's level anymore, you can still put them above Philly and New England IMO. Still enough going on and enough structure to put them a hair above the rest going on outside of NYC.

NJ, Philly, and New England are not even close to be as powerful as Chicago. Might be closer in numbers but like joeschmo said they have more power.

What makes Chicago so much more "powerful" than those other families?

They have more members/associates, full administration, and not any trials/arrests like the other families.

That's not necessarily all correct Nicky. Membership is about the same and more trials and arrests often indicates that a Family is active and going strong in organized crime. That's why we know New York is nowhere near being done.

The one thing you have to consider is that the more powerful and active you consider the Outfit, you have to believe in direct proportion in the absolute failure of law enforcement to prosecute it for anything.

I don't have the time to go back and make sure this is exactly correct, but I think Sarno was busted for activity pre-2004. I don't believe any of the malfeasance in Family Secrets took place before 2000 or maybe early 2000s.

So beyond that as far as I know of what you could consider prosecutions of the Outfit, you have Fratto and Szaflarski.

IMO you either have to give the Outfit a lot of credit for becoming far smarter and more elusive or say that law enforcement is doing an abysmal job at every level.

In decades past Outfit prosecutions seemed to happen with far more frequency. And certainly incidents of probable Outfit violence happened with far, far greater frequency. (We all know they toned the violence way down, but still.)

no with the arrests I was saying that Chicago still has the administration and capos active and not in jail but the other families have had their administration pretty much wiped out

It's actually the exact opposite.

By that way of thinking one could argue families in Cleveland, Tampa, or Los Angles have also been more adept at avoiding law enforcement, since there's little to nothing in the way of mob cases there anymore.

More activity = more indictments

Less activity = less indictments

Some people on the forums will try to argue one family or another is unique and the above doesn't apply but I've never bought into it.

That is my point; sorry if it wasn't clear.

I forgot about Anthony Calabrese btw.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood.

On another note, the FBI had two squads investigating the Outfit in the 1990's - one investigating the South Side/26th Street crew and one investigating the Cicero/Melrose Park crew. It reportedly now has one squad which investigates the Outfit, in addition to other OC cases.

The lack of trials/arrests is more likely to be evidence of "not doing anything" than evidence of anything else. I'm not sure why you're citing it as evidence of strength.

The only thing that I can perceive that the Outfit has over the other small families is that its members seem to have more impressive legitimate business portfolios than the guys in NE and Philly. I don't really see any evidence for superiority in any other respect. But investing criminal proceeds into legitimate businesses and then assimilating into the mainstream of American society and keeping your kids out of the rackets is what kills off mob families - that phenomenon is just as lethal to the mob as RICO in my opinion.

Chicago still has the clout down at City Hall. Former mayor Richie M's friend Freddy B. was the former driver for LaPietra, blew up a restaurant, and had juice loans yet the mayor said he knew nothing about that. In last couple of years Freddy sold his trucking companies which had all the city contracts for $100 million. THAT IS 100 million.Real estate developer Tommy DiPiazza bought property for 50k and sold it back to the city of Chicago for 1.1 million. Not a bad return. Both of those guys paid cash for their 10,000 square foot places in Marco Island. Must be nice. This is all public knowledge as well. New mayor yet nothing has changed in city hall.

That doesn't surprise me; I know in general they dedicate a lot more sources to terrorism these days.

[quote=FriedRavioliFarts]

I don't think anyone is arguing it's completely dead... just hugely diminished in many or our eyes.

This is a very hard argument to counter IMO.

You also have to look at the complete lack of violence. I understand the Outfit deciding to be far less violent, but still hard to see how it functions with almost no violence.

And if they were out there breaking peoples' legs etc. I believe the media would get wind of at least some of it.

None of the mob families are very violent today. And if someones legs get broke it wouldn't be a big news story.

You gotta let it go, Nicky. You were born too late. End of story. What's the big fucking deal?

What are you talking about?

hes saying that like other younger guys on here and elsewhere,you give guys the impression your 'rooting' for these guys. i understand the feeling perfectly well,so does pizza i believe. we both grew up just about in 'the thick' of it as you can get with out being made,dead or in jai.but you,being younger were born at a time when 'this thing' is going downhill. it will never be what it once was,and thats all there is.

I by no means want to give the impression that I am rooting for them. I know families that have been ruined by the Outfit. It is sad. I just think there is more going on than what is posted on this forum. Buon Natale gentlemen.

I don't get how saying the mob isn't as violent today (which is true) made him freak out. And how does saying that make me be rooting for them

Chicago has had their share of hits in recent years - Ronnie Jarrett, Anthony Chiaramonti, and Anthony Zizzo.

99, 04, 06, right?

Does anyone think well ever see another one?

If you we're plotting frequency of mob related deaths from the 70s or 80s to today on a chart I would imagine the chart would look something like the Grand Canyon in terms of fall off.

Jarrett was shot in 1999 but succumbed to his wounds in 2000. Chiaramonti was in 2001. Zizzo disappeared in 2006.

Yeah, the drastic dropoff seems to have happened starting around 1990. Hits have been very sporadic since then.

Many claim that this reduction in hits is due to the family trying to keep a low profile, and that may be part of it, but I suspect the most important factor is so many of the really brutal, quick-to-kill gangsters in Chicago being jailed or dying of natural causes starting in the late 80s.

Yes I agree, Ivan. I think a lot of guys that we can see on charts on various mob forums today, are actually shelved. So rather than killing them for a transgression made (like they used to do back in the 1970s, 1980s or whatever) they are being put on the shelf now more frequently than ever before.

If the Outfit have only 28 made man in 2012,what about this 2010 Chart ?

Thanks for posting that Furio. I thought there was a semi-recent chart running around.

Nice chart, grazie mille Furio.

Does anyone have a larger file?
I'd love to check all names and mugshots.

pic

Great chart, while many listed may not be made guys, it's clear they have way more than the 30-50 members that many say they have.

I love the fact they have a Outlaw MC liason, too funny. Also, what's with the guy in the upper left it says "aruba". Do they have interest in a casino there ?

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news&id=3936339
He's an associate who runs a casino there
A lot of people are gonna say this chart isn't accurate but it is

that chart is very visually appealing, thats one of the reasons so many people put such high stock into it. if we try to look at things objectively, there are a bunch of charts and assesments from law enforcement that are out there that differ greatly from this one, but since this chart seems to fit the agenda or wishes of some, they tend to go with this one and discredit all other sources of info.

I wouldn't say Sarno's pic is visually appealing. Haha. Guys have died from natural causes, shelved/inactive, or retired so the chart is somewhat inflated ie Maginifichi and Scalise are both shelved.

There are also many people on there who are identified by other people who are fairly knowledgable as having never been in the Outfit but merely related to members or had business with them at one time etc.

Who is a relative who isn't a criminal on that list?

That chart was compiled by a couple guys over on the Real Deal forum. It's a well made chart but anyone can do it. It doesn't change the fact that the FBI cited 28 members and a little over 100 associates in 2007. Internet posters can make all the charts and list all the members they want but, in the end, it really doesn't matter. What the FBI says holds far more weight.

The chart is REALLY generous in its definition of "associate", and it goes ahead and lists the "not made but de facto made" associates as "soldiers". I think it's fairly accurate otherwise.

Originally Posted By: bladerkeks

Originally Posted By: LuanKuci

[font:Arial]Nice chart, grazie mille Furio.

Does anyone have a larger file?
I'd love to check all names and mugshots.

pic

Thank you.

Quote:

The chart is REALLY generous in its definition of "associate", and it goes ahead and lists the "not made but de facto made" associates as "soldiers". I think it's fairly accurate otherwise.

I figured...

I think and it is my impression that The Outfit is different from the other families of the American Mafia, first of all, there has never been in Chicago like in New York a high concentration of Italians, and also in Chicago in 1931 there only one family: The Chicago Outfit or the Capone gang, in addition having always occupied of all the racket, except for drugs and having to the 50s until 1986 controlled the best casinos in Las Vegas. The Outfit has been able to focus on quality as well as the number of its members, so it could reorganize leaving power in the older members taking the low the numbers of made man and increasing enormously the number of the associates, in fact until Calabrese Sr flips and although even now reduced to a number that varies from 28 to 60 made man, the Chicago Outfit maintains a certain political power and can be considered as the most active family outside New York.

Originally Posted By: furio_from_naples

...first of all, there has never been in Chicago like in New York a high concentration of Italians...

Say whaaaaaaat?

Hey guys jut something I wanted to Input, this was posted on another recent outfit thread by Johnynonose and it's the "28" made guys I believe that we're cited
At family secrets .1. Joseph Andriacchi
2. Dominic Basso
3. Robert Bellavia
4. Frank Calabrese
5. Bruno Caruso
6. Frank Caruso
7. Leo Caruso
8. Marco D'Amico
9. John DiFronzo
10. Joseph DiFronzo
11. Peter M. DiFronzo
12. Salvatore DeLaurentis
13. Rudolph Fratto
14. Michael Gurgone
15. James Inendino
16. Joseph Frank LaMantia
17. Joseph Lombardo
18. Rocco Lombardo
19. Michael Magnifichi
20. James Marcello
21. Louis Marino
22. John Matassa
23. Salvatore Muserino
24. Albert Roverio
25. Michael Spano Sr.
26. John Eugene Spizzirri
27. Richard Allen Spizzirri
28. Michael C. Talarico

LuanKuci in Chicago there are more Italian like New York?
tell me if I write a mistake.

NYC definitely has a larger Italian population but Chicago still has a large amount of Italians also.

Dominick Basso died in 2001, Salvatore Roverio died in 2003, and Salvatore Muserino died in 2004. So they wouldn't have been among the 28 members cited later. And Al Tornebene hadn't died yet so he would have been. On top of that, Mike Sarno would have been on that list. Probably Salvatore Cautadella too.

Does anyone have more info on the carusos?? Besides frank jr beating the black kid and all that?

Frank, Bruno, and Leo, as well as Joey Lombardo's kid, were kicked out of the Laborers Union back in 2001. Frank is said to still be the boss of the 26th Street crew. His son-in-law, video poker "kingpin" Casey Szaflarski, was involved in the Sarno indictment.

And Szaflarski's daughter married Caruso's son.

i wish i still had that fbi chart from either 2008, 2009, or 2010 ( i cant remember the exact year) but on that chart it said there were between 50-80 made men in chicago (active, in jail, or inactive)

the chart was saved on a different computer

it listed difronzo as boss, andriacchi as streetboss, and d'amico as consigliere

I believe you're referring to this 2010 chart at the link below. It wasn't from the FBI but from a couple posters over on the RD forum. Considering the feds specifically cited 28 members in 2007, they obviously took some liberties with who they labeled a "soldier."

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/7967/outfitt.gif

naw it was actually a real fbi chart

i got it from the realdealforum so it might still be on there

i'm sorry that it pains you to hear this but it was a real fbi chart and it stated that they have between 50-80 made men, active, inactive, or in jail

No, it's not an FBI chart. Like I said, two posters (specifically mcscott and Atardi) made that chart. Mcscott is, of course, author Scott Bernstein, who has written books on the Detroit and Chicago mobs. And he says he got his information from the CCC and the feds. However, while not ignoring the good information he does provide, I don't take his numbers at face value. He seems to inflate the membership totals for both families. We can all look at the exact quote from the FBI in 2007 that cites 28 members. But then Scott and Atardi come up with a chart a few years later that lists over 90+ members? Something doesn't add up. Judging by your name, I'm sure you're more than happy to go with whichever number is the biggest. It's obvious your goal here is to represent your hometown crime family as best you can. You wouldn't happen to be the same guy who went by the name "cookcountyrowdy" over on the RD years ago, would you?


"We have 28 made members of the Chicago Outfit roaming in the Chicagoland area. We have over 100 associates of the Chicago Outfit."
- Robert Grant, FBI (2007)
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=5681103

i am not talking about the chart composed by two posters

i'm talking about a chart posted by somebody that was a journalist

50-80 made members (active, inactive, or in jail)

Just because somebody is a journalist or author, doesn't mean everything they say is gospel. And where do you get this 50-80 members from? That chart Scott came up with shows over 90 members. But either way, both numbers are inflated, as the FBI specifically cited 28 members in 2007. Of course, you choose to ignore that number because you don't like it.

Just because somebody is a journalist or author, doesn't mean everything they say is gospel. And where do you get this 50-80 members from? That chart Scott came up with shows over 90 members. But either way, both numbers are inflated, as the FBI specifically cited 28 members in 2007. Of course, you choose to ignore that number because you don't like it. [/quot

He hasn't been here long enough to just listen to you Ivy. As you have eluded to many times you are the only one who gets it. The Mafia Insider! Catchy screen name too!

I'm not asking him to take my word for it. That's why I posted the statement from the FBI for everybody to see. It's right there.

i saw the actual chart, it was not composed by the person that posted it

where do u think they people that made the chart (you just posted a link for) got the idea to even make the chart? the chart had the four different crews, the caporegimes of each crew and the street bosses of each crew

the people that composed the chart got the information on who has leadership positions from the fbi chart, i have no idea how they came up with names of soldiers and associates. but they got the hierarchy from the fbi chart

I was referring to your statement regarding authors and journalists.

i am not going off of any chart composed by members of a messageboard

if anybody on this forum is a member of the RD forum then they should search for the fbi chart that i'm referring to because it's on there

I'm a member of the RD forum and have been so for over 6 years. And I'm here to tell you there is no FBI chart showing 50-80 members posted there or anywhere else.

It would be awesome if someone could come up with a fan fiction dialogue of how Marco became "consigliere."

Was it overa nice bottle of wine? Donuts and coffee? A telephone call?

"This is John. I have a question for you."

"Yeah."

"Would you like to become consigliere?"

Pause. "What's the overall compensation package?"

if you're a member of RD forum then you know goddamn well somebody posted the chart because you saved it to your computer just like i did. i wouldn't be able to tell you whether or not it's still on the website to this day but there was one posted on RD forum within the last 6 years

you can find an fbi chart from the 1990s that listed 7 chicago street crews, that means they had the strength to have 7 different crews. why would you not be able to believe that they have the strength to have between (50-80 made men arctive, inactive, or in jail just 25 years later?

the syndicate doesn't kill each other very often and all of the members of a secret society just didn't up and die in the same year. italians are pretty healthy so they tend to live into their 70s because there ain't that many stresses in their communities

i repeat, it was a different chart than the one composed by the people that made the big blue chart. i repeat, it was a different chart than the one composed by the people that made the big blue chart. i saw a chart posted by a journalist that he allegedy got from the fbi. different fbi people talk to different reporters, who write different articles which contain different infomation for people to use as quotes

A crew doesn't have a set number of members, it could be only 3 made members and dozens of associates or it could be made of 10 made guys and a few associates.

There's been several Outfit charts of various sizes posted on the RD over the years. But none from the FBI. Just from posters on the board.



25 years is a long time. You're apparently not very up to date on the Outfit you so know and love. During the "Family Secrets" case in 2007, the feds listed 4 remaining crews - Elmwood Park, Grand Avenue, Cicero, and 26th Street. More recently, one FBI source said the Outfit is now down to "two or three crews." I could posts the links to these if you want but you'd probably just ignore them anyway.



The Outfit has had almost 30 members die in just the last 15 years alone.

Yes, you're referring to another chart that Scott (mcscott) posted. He did that one before the blue chart and it was simply a list of names, i.e. without the pictures. He claimed the same sources for both charts (feds, CCC) but the membership was inflated in both.

Here's a couple different sources, both from FBI guys in Chicago. One cited 28 members, the other about 30 members. Time to face reality, pal.

We have 28 made members of the Chicago Outfit roaming in the Chicagoland area. We have over 100 associates of the Chicago Outfit," Grant said.
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=5681103

Mallul estimates the Outfit has about 30 "made" members and a little more than 100 associates
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-09-30/news/0709300075_1_chicago-outfit-mob-boss-calabrese

And it's not clear in the article if they include "made guys" who were currently incarcerated.

Let's say not, just for arguments sake.

You would still have to subtract, since then: Calabrese Sr., Nick Calabrese, Jimmy Light, Lumbo, The Indian, Tornabene, Fat Ass... I'm probably forgetting a few too.

So that's - 7 right there.

Further, the Builder, No Nose, Sneaky Pete are freaking ancient. Sorry, but you are only capable of masterminding so much crime when you are in your mid-80s.

- 4

Mags shelve

-1

I refuse to count Rudy Fratto

-1

So that is just a little left of the 30 made guys estimated in 2007 who are essentially out of the game.

Even keeping the geriatrics in, as I'm sure someone will insist that they are just as wily and dangerous as ever, that's still approximately 33 percent of "made guys" who are out of the game.

It seems to me they're counting everybody, as a made guy doesn't cease to be so just because he's in prison. And, yes, I would argue that a mob guy should't be written off because he's ancient. Look at many of the top guys in the Genovese family. They're old as dirt but they're the ones who, through their experience and leadership, have kept that family the strongest.

Johnny, could you do my taxes please?

OK, fair enough, keep the geriatrics.

OK, then who would have been in prison?

Harry Aleman, who has since gone on to receive his final reward
Mario Rainone had just been released after an 18 year stretch, he's now back in prison

- 2 more

I'm sure I'm forgetting some others.

Harry, taxes are for suckers!

Neither Aleman or Rainone were made.

Care to share how you know that?

Aleman was half mexican

Marcello is half-Irish.

Pretty sure they didn't know Marcello was half irish. They might of known Aleman wasn't full Italian. Pretty obvious from his last name.

I've heard that before re: Marcello but I would find it hard to believe. His dad was involved in Outfit stuff, and was murdered while trying to collect a juice loan. Later the guy who killed him was murdered.

Yes, everyone knew Aleman was half Mexican.

I've never seen any claim that either one of them were made. And others posters, more knowledgeable then me on the Outfit, have never listed them. And Rainone informed on the mob anyway.

Well, it's a guessing game. I doubt too many people would really have inside knowledge on that.

By some accounts Butch Petrocelli was killed for ripping off the Aleman defense fund, and I believe Petrocelli is believed to have been made, right?

If true, would they kill a made guy for ripping off an unmade guy?

Although I remember when I read that that was the sole reason for killing Petrocelli I was a little skeptical.

But I don't know.

Raione was GOING to flip until they blew his mom's porch up, then he got alzheimer's.

I don't think Petrocelli was made either. And Rainone ran to the feds and talked in the late 1980's after he felt he was going to be killed by the Outfit.

Holy fuck they blew up his mom's house? When did that happen?

Yes, Rainone ran to the feds and did inform a little--then they blew up his mom's porch and he clammed up and decided to go to prison instead.

1989

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/iteam&id=6661518

Was this the time when Raione was dispatched to some house to allow a couple of hit men to kill Hal Smith? Upon arrival, Raione determined he was the victim and "got out of Dodge." Wasn't one of hit men an informer? And was Gus Alex behind this double cross or was it someone else.

I know I've read this several times, but I can't remember the details and names.

That was it, though I don't recall if the target was specifically Hal Smith.

I don't remember.

Do you guys spend much time on ISPN?

There is a lot of interesting stuff on there but I don't get it. What's the backstory. I have almost avoided it because it is too much, thousands and thousands of pages of documents and files. Nothing in context or succinct. But once in a while I read something on there that is fascinating.

I've read several articles on ISPN. Seems to be okay.

I made contact with one of the site managers (not sure about title) and requested a phone interview. I did get a very nice response declining my request. The individual who responded said he was not an authority on the information I requested (Accardo & Giancana). At least he did respond. I currently have two requests extended to former FBI agents in Chicago for telephone interviews, but I'm not optimistic. These guys do not like to talk on the phone.

One of the problems I have is trying to remember where I've read something. I've given up on names, I.e. people, places and things. I have saved some information, but there's just so much out there that it's not practical to save everything.

and you know whose numbers are inflated because???????

nick calabrese gave the names of 60 made guys

but i guess his numbers are inflated too

They probably want to get paid for it...

That's come up here before. It's from a blog post by Steve Warmiber. He could have misused the word "made." Or it could have included people who were dead. In any event it conflicts the FBI reports. Seeing who the FBI is he one he gave the info to, it's safe to assume they took whatever he said into consideration before releasing their number.

Look, genius, I posted the figures straight from the FBI above. 28 and 30. They're right there for all to see. What more do you need?

And there was only a snippet in a Sun Times article where the journalist said Calabrese identified 60 members. Journalists often use the word "members" generically and fail to differentiate between who's actually made and who isn't. To make it even more confusing, as we saw in the Family Secrets indictment itself, guys can be a "member" of a certain crew but not be a "made member" of the Outfit.

The actual number of made guys, according to the FBI, seems to be 30 at most. At least as of 2007. That makes Scott's 50-80 figure inflated. And that's not surprising considering he's also inflated the figures for Detroit. Back in 1996, the total membership for Detroit was 30 at most. But over the past several years, his charts on the RD forum have ranged anywhere from 30 to almost 60 members. And he finally admitted, at one point, that he doesn't differentiate between members and associates on his charts. So him doing the same with Chicago isn't hard to imagine.

The bottom line is, you have an agenda and you'll go with whatever number is the biggest. If somebody else came along and claimed the Outfit had 100 members, you'd drop the 50-80 members immediately and go with the bigger figure.

The bottom line is, you have an agenda and you'll go with whatever number is the biggest. If somebody else came along and claimed the Outfit had 100 members, you'd drop the 50-80 members immediately and go with the bigger figure. [/quote]

Truth be told I believe deep down inside we all have an agenda, with that said many here are proud and "rep" thier areas others just like to hear themselves talk. However thier is always the one who's agenda is ego. Here is another example of the thousand where you enjoy talking down to people. This site has lost so many readable, concise posters because of either age meaning not comp savvy and can't cut and paste an article to fulfill your source requirement or they just don't have that ego where they need this forum to fulfill that missing part of thier life you find as a neccesity.

I remember reading during and after the FS trial that T. Markus Funk, one of the prosecutors, mentioned the number 28 in reference to The Outfit . I'm sure he was referring to the made members.

In any case I would certainly go with the FBI's number, whatever that might be.

The EastSide of Chicago is called Lake Michigan.
(Sorry guys...I just could'nt resist )

first you claim no chart was ever posted stating the syndicate has 50-80 made men active, inactive or in jail. now you're admitting that there was a chart but those numbers were inflated.

now you're claiming that nick calabrese gave the names of 60 made men but they didn't differentiate if they were made or just members. common sense will tell you that the government asked him to name as many made guys as he could in open court. not too mention steve warmbir specifically said calabrese named 60 made men. so either you can't read or you're a liar, and we know you can read

Even assuming he was correct, the Warmiber article was published in 2009. However, Nick started cooperating in 2002. You have to guess Nick would have given them the names by the time the trial started in June, 2007. FBI agent Robert Grant threw out the 28 number in September, 2007.

So either FBI agent Robert Grant was not informed that there were nearly twice as many made men as he thought, or Warmiber was either 1) wrong in identifying them as “made men” 2) Nick had identified 60 people, dead or alive, from his entire career he knew as “made men.”

I personally feel the latter is plausible. Hell, half the people who’s names came up at the trial were dead—murdered or just died. I think it’s very possible the number referred to everyone who Nick had ever met he could certify was “made.”

No, I said no chart showing 50-80 members from the FBI was posted on the forum.



We really don't need to know what Calabrese meant, i.e. living, dead, etc. or whether the journalist got it right. We have statements from two different FBI officials telling us the membership. You're just grasping for any reason to ignore those numbers because you think they're too low and that just kills you and your image of the Outfit. Sorry pal, that's reality. Save yourself a lot of time and go sell your BS somewhere else. Because nobody is buying it here.

so what calabrese said in court doesn't matter?

i'm sure he knows who most of the made guys are but you don't believe him

I'm not saying it doesn't count. I'm saying a small blurb in an article, that doesn't specify what he meant, hardly outweighs what the feds more recently said. If Calabrese had identified 60 made guys, currently living, the FBI would have said there were still that many, or nearly so, in 2007. But it was apparently 30 at most by that point.

If Calabrese said it on witness stand, I would tend to think it was true.

He didn't say it on the witness stand. It was a point reported by Warbimer as being brought up by prosecutors during sentencing to argue for leniency.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/mob/2009/03/what_the_prosecution_says_abou.html

witness stand or no witness stand

the fbi's federal prosecutors acknowledged calabrese told them 60 made guys

Once again, it apparently wasn't 60 currently living made guys. And that's assuming the journalist was even using the term "member" in the proper sense. Bottom line, the current total is about half that, at least since 2007. Period.

how do you know whether or not the people calabrese named are dead or alive?

If there were still 60 living members at the time Calabrese cited that figure (and once again that's assuming the journalist used "member" in the LCN sense) the FBI would haven't have cited 28-30 members in 2007. 30+ members didn't die during those years.

my god, you chicago guys really take the cake when it comes to the mob! take a step back, and realize that we are in the present day, not the 60's, 70's, and early part of the 80's where your silly analogies would at least have some clout. the best that can be argued, imo, is that at their peak, the outfit was close to being as influential as the 3 historically weaker ny families, columbo, bonanno, and lucchese, seperately, although a strong case can be made that they were never even equal to these families on an individual basis.

if you guys want to pick a criminal area where you guys are ahead of nyc, the street gang scene would be your best bet! with regards to the # of made guys ect, i'm not sure, but i'm much more comfortable going with the more consistent # presented by the fbi and law enforcement in general, rather than defaulting to the highest # available to somehow try and prove my point. one thing however that i think we can all agree with is that the structure of the outfit is different than other families, thus the # of made guys seems to get under people's skin considering the influence the outfit is seemingly able to wield even at this stage in time. with that said, it might do a little to help some get over the low # if we could somehow come to an agreement on how many guys, whether made or not, have made guy status within the outfit. unfortunatly, that would likely end in the same arguments that we are faced with now.

Doesn't the phrase "made" and "member" blend in a way in Chicago? That Murry Humphries was a member no? Then there are the "made" guys, I.E. Italians? Way I interpreted was members were "connected" as they say in NYC and "made" is what it is?

They didn't make guys during the Capone days. That didn't happen until later... not sure exactly when.

By many accounts Humphries was as powerful as anyone in the organization.

you mean they were on par with the genovese/gambino families at their peak

I think at this point people need to present some specific evidence of one argument or the other or just not address it. It's not very interesting to just say that my dad could beat up your dad.

People often bring up non-Italians who have the same clout in the Outfit as the Italian made guys. But you'll notice the examples they always give are all long dead - Humphries, Guzik, Alex, etc. Today, there are no non-Italians in the hierarchy of the Outfit.

As for guys who haven't gone through the ceremony but have membership status, I doubt there are many. Joey Lombardo is apparently one but he seems to have had membership status before the Outfit started using the ceremony. There may be some other old timers like that left but probably not many.

I'm also not sure the Outfit's structure today is really that much different from the other families. Some internet charts show this really elaborate, hierarchical structure of an administration, area bosses, crew bosses, street bosses, soldiers, and associates but the information coming out about the Outfit in recent years doesn't really support this. Over the past several years the Outfit has had an acting boss (Marcello and Sarno) or something akin to a ruling panel with DiFronzo, Andriacchi and their North Side crew. I suppose these guys could still be called area bosses because of the geographic area their crews operate in. Below that you have the crew bosses, which is simply another word for captain. And below that are the soldiers. Given the much reduced size of the the modern day Outfit, I question why it would need street bosses below the crew bosses.

One thing I will say is that the guys we know are made have not been very successful in keeping their names out of the press. To my eye, the 30 number circa 2007 would seem to be a very good fit--taking into consideration the number of guys that we know, or have great reason to suspect, are made.

What I'm saying is, to believe the 60 number now, you have to believe that there are currently about 20 made guys who have been consistently terrible about staying under the radar for the last 40 years, and 40 who have been excellent.

However, as Ivy has said, such conjecture is neither really here nor there.

The bottom line is FBI gave the estimate of around 30 well after Nick Calabrese had spilled to none other than the FBI.

no, i mean what a said. the whole argument of " the outfit controlled the entire western united states" is tired and overstated at best. what about the outfits dominant control of las vegas? where is that today? they might have 1 or 2 made guys out there at best, and why is that? the mafia has alot more influence in AC as opposed to vegas.

Well the Outfit is a mere shadow of what it once was, that's for sure.

Many seem to agree it was sometime in the 1970's.

Not to get too off topic, but what kind of influence does the mob have in AC? It has to be more than Vegas for sure.

I doubt the Outfit has any influence in Vegas at all. Steve Wynn makes more in a week than the entire organization does all year. No idea about NY.

I think Lumbo's brother owned a strip club out there or something, if that counts.

Rocco Lombardo was simply floor manager at the Crazy Horse Too. I wouldn't be surprised if the mob also has some other legit interests in the town, i.e. clubs, restaurants, etc. Back in 2000, a Las Vegas Sun article claimed there were only a dozen members living in the city. Other than the Crazy Horse Too bust, the last significant mob case was from the late 1990's during the "Operation Thin Crust" busts. That included the Gambinos trying to move in on the escort business. During the 1990's there were also other rackets like telemarketing fraud, slot cheating, and so forth. But at this point, I don't think there's much beyond the mob's bookmaking networks extending out to Nevada.

As far as Atlantic City goes, it's probably similar. Probably more ownership of legit businesses because of the closer proximity. The only big mob case directly out of AC in recent years was, of course, the Philly mob's gambling operation run out of the Borgata casino. It's still very hard for mob-connected companies to get any contracts with the casinos. Joey Merlino's cousin had to really fight to maintain one.

so you're saying not only were the gambino/genovese stronger than the outfit, but two other new york families that were in the middle of internal warfare were also stronger than chicago?

70's may be a bit early in regards to losing power. I remember Jack Cerone sent an messenger regarding the Wynn expansion. If memory serves they meet with Fat Tony Salerno the Genovese I believe the year was 1984. It's raining so no beach today. Will get a external source.

you're full of shit

if you've heard about sarno then you've heard about szaflarski

http://www.laborers.org/Commission_IBT.html

Salerno Outfit meeting in the above!

Wasn't Alan Dorfman considered a member in Chicago Terms?

I've never heard anyone suggest Szeflarski was made or had any kind of power except being the video poker guy.

I've never heard anyone suggest Dorfman was a member. Just a valuable partner.

Chicago OC is confusing to me, must be the wind. Good part of NYC there is easy distinction. Only Italians set policy and very rarely do many non Italians get "inside" the inner workings.

As I understand it, when the organization started it did not make people and while being dominantly Italian, particularly in its upper echelons, it brought in many non-Italians as well. In the early days throughout the glory days of the 50s and 60s, non-Italians such as Jake Guzick, Gus Alex and, probably most prominently, Murray Humphreys, rose to its upper echelons.

Sometime later (according to Ivy the 70s) they started making "making" people (though i think certain factors in the organization have always regarded it as silly) and since then I don't think you can really peg any non-Italians as having become actual members of the Outfit. It also seems to have become more Italian-centric in the sense that it is harder to think of non-Itlians who have played a significant role recently like Alex or Humphreys.

Dorman was the head of the Teamsters' pension fund--of course the Outfit was going to partner up with them if they could.

Szaflarski for whatever reason is the video poker king.

But, like I've said, I've never heard anyone suggest either one was a member, and I doubt either one of those guys would have any interest in becoming a member.

So just for clarification there is no difference between "made" or "member" in Chicago?

I don't think in the beginning there was really quite as formal as a heirarchy... though there are people who know far, far more than me about that. If you go over to the old ANP forums and do a search on "structure" you will see about 10,000 comments from extrmely knowledgable posters going into every nuance of the structure going back decades.

Now I think you would really just have made guys and associates.

But, yes, i was using "made guy" and "member" interchangably in my previous post.

Ok, not talking about your posts I was referring to actual or reality.

Yes, I think the only guys you could really consider "members" would be made guys.

But I guess that would be up to peoples' opinion, since there's no formal designation.

Most people would definitely say Marco D'Amico is a "member" of the Outfit, though some are of the opinion he was never "made."

If you're asking if the Outfit has like a junior membership program or something, not that I've ever heard of.

No, could care less about junior membership humor. My question was asked because unlike NYC Chicago has pigmy type crews of all kinds. Jews, Irish, Italians etc. it also becomes more confusing when Frank Culotta and his Afro are referred to as "members" then in EVERY interview he gives he says he was never made because he didn't like rules? So that lead to my curiosity if you could be a member and not made. Understand?

I think it is just vernacular... if people associate with them long enough the media and everyone else is likely going to refer to them as "members" of the Outfit.

The only formal desgination I've ever heard of is "made."

It is somewhat confusing; for instance yesterday Ivy and I were discussing if Harry Aleman was in fact "made." Maybe he wasn't, as his dad was Mexican. But he was pretty much the archtypical and one of the most notorious Chicago gangsters of his era. Like I said, some people refer to Marco D'Amico as not being "made." Why he wouldn't be, I have no idea, he is by all accounts about as influential and involved in the Outfit as one could be.

No idea.

I think you're right about the 70's. After Giancana was deposed there were a succession of bosses, but they didn't last very long. There were no longer any qualified members who met the qualifications. Accardo would step in just long enough to handle things until a new boss took over.

In all fairness, it should be noted that the govt. stepped up their efforts to nail every boss who "came on board." Times changed and there was an obvious lack of talent to assume the role of boss.

Aiuppa did okay, but again, times had changed.

Of course I know about Szaflarski. He oversaw a big video poker operation but he wasn't in the Outfit's hierarchy, i.e. he wasn't a crew boss or in the administration.



As said above, whether in Chicago or anywhere else, "made" and "member" are usually synonymous. Especially today. But as I mentioned before, as we saw in the Family Secrets indictment, a guy can be a "member" of a certain crew but not a "made member" of the Outfit, i.e. he hasn't gone through the ceremony. But all that really means is he's an associate who's part of a specific crew.

Ivy I'm playing the lottery tonight, we've agreed twice in a day! Buy a ticket too!

the infamous syndicate started as a camorra group then they joined the mafia

alot of influential chicago mobsters were brought into the syndicate long before they became a mafia family. some of the people brought into the south side gang became leaders in the outfit. when those afforementioned men were iniated into the south side gang it wasn't done by pricking fingers. they weren't intiated that way so they didn't initiate people into the syndicate like that because they weren't made like that

capone, ricca, accardo, giancana never got their finger pricked

neither did the people they made

the syndicate has always been run like a corporation

video poker is a division of their corporation

szflarski is somebody

.

All due respect to the rest of the posters on here, but cookcounty is the biggest idiot ive seen post on the internet in a while.

If those membership estimates by the FBI are accurate, and considering that there are now possibly no more than 25 made members left, the Outfit will probably be gone entirely within twenty years.

I would imagine so.

I've read that Anthony Spilotro was "made" in the early 1960s.

I don't really know when they started making guys.

Definitely Michael and Anthony were lured to their deaths with the promise of Michael being made, but that was obviously in the mid-80s.

So you can safely assume Anthony was made long before then.

Now that is an interesting statement which might be true, considering the Camorra apparantly also doesn't really have traditional initiation ceremonies.

the syndicate started making people in the 1920s

I don't know what a Camora is.

Most accounts have the Outfit starting when Johnny Torio had Jim Colisimo killed subsequently brought in Capone for muscle. Torrio barely survived an assasination attempt, retired and turned the beginnings over to Capone.

I think they actually recreated that on Boarwalk Empire a couple years ago.

Didn't Capone say something to Accardo like, "okay son, Jack (McGurn) says you're okay so you're in, or one of us," something like that?

These things are confusing. I always wondered what status Humphries held. I can't recall a specific title, but he was very powerful and Ricca, Accardo and Giancana all relied heavily on "The Hump." Plus, he answered only to the top guys.

Not sure about that quote; I did read Accardo started out as McGurn's (real name Vincenzo Ribaldi) driver. McGurn of course was eventually gunned down himself, likely on Nitti's orders. He didn't have much to offer the Outfit after Capone went to prison, his only real skill was killing people, and he was apparently putting up a stink about being tossed out to the point of saying stuff like "I know a lot of things about you people." He was gunned down in a building that was then a bowling alley and is still standing on Chicago and Milwaukee. Then of course Geraldo famously interviewed his then-girlfiriend, Louise Rolfe, aka, the Blond Alibi, in the 90s, and she maintained McGurn had nothing to do with the massacre while conceding that he might have planned it. But she maintained they really had been holed up in a hotel when it went down.

In Russo's book he basically writes 500 pages on Humphries without ever mentioning if he had a title.

I would guess he was below only Ricca and Accardo in terms of formal status and in terms of actual power, probably their equal or superior, if Russo was in fact correct of his characterization of Humphreys as being the operator responsible for nearly every notable thing they did post-Capone.

What I am saying is, the way Russo characterized it was like saying well, there's one guy on this plane who knows how to fly it. It really doesn't matter if you call the flight attendant the captain, there is still only one person who can fly it and that is all anyone cares about.

But Russo's book might have gone a little over the top in its admiration of Humphreys.

There is also a lot of information on Humphreys in the FBI files. He was an interesting character.

Some of the info. in the FBI files supports what Russo says in his book. The files are sometimes difficult to read and there is a lot of information "blacked-out."

Cool... that is probably where I will go next if I keep reading about this stuff... the raw files. The Family Secrets files someone posted a while ago were pretty interesting but only half of them downloaded.

Although sometimes I remember thinking "I am sitting here wasting my time reading a telephone conversation between two morons."

I can post the url's on the FBI files if you decide to go that route.

I followed the Family Secrets trial and actually got hooked on that case. I pretty much stopped last May when the 7th Court of Appeals upheld the convictions by a 2-1 vote with Judge Diane Wood dissenting. I also emailed Jeff Coen with questions about the trial. And guess what? He answered every email ! Seems like a really nice guy.

BTW - any word about another trial related to FS ? I just knew there would be more indictments, but nothing happened. Also, I would like to know more about John DiFronzo.

I may need to start a new topic.

Thanks

Yeah, Family Secrets was really exciting. Coen's book was awesome; one of my favorites, if not my favorite. That is really cool he wrote you back. I've read that book about 3 times.

I was actually considering writing Steve Warmiber regarding this "60 made guys" issue; maybe I will.

I haven't heard anything about a new trial in a couple years. There were a few article after FS that alluded to it, and John Kass alluded to a "tsunami" of indictments in 2010, but it never happened.

Yeah, DiFronzo is a bit of a mysterious character... there is some good info on him over on ANP, and a small section on him in When Corruption Was King. (If you liked Coen's book you'll probably like that one too if you haven't read it.)

In one of those articles, or in the comments, someone mentioned who it was who brought him in, and maybe how... I forget.

He's married and lives in River Grove in a modest apartment complex that he owns. One of his sons died of a drug overdose. He used to own a car dealership, or dealerships (probably still does).

And he was reportedly identified by Nick Calabrese as being at the Spilotro murders but the feds did not have enough evidence, is the story, to go after him. Other theories on that exist, because they did not have much more evidence to go after Marcello for the same thing except a voice ID, or, with Lombardo for the Seifert murder, basically just a fingerprint, but still went after them. So some people think there's some funny business why they didn't go after DiFronzo too.

There are some good articles on DiFronzo on ANP if you do a search over there.

But nothing that would come close to a really good bio.

He used to meet at the old Loon with all his pals, later converted into another restaurant called the My Way, owned by Bobby Abinatti, but it's since closed completely I believe.

Kind of funny that was the Outfit meeting spot, it was pretty lame.

Thanks for the info. I'll do some homework.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=139578&relPageId=2

Would someone please let me know if this opens. It's an FBI file on Sam Giancana.

Yes it did; pretty interesting.

And here's how the Chicago Tribune described "The Last Supper" picture.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-...uppa-mob-trials

Read and make your own decisions relative to who is who !

Thanks John.

Sure, he was put in charge of some video poker operations but Szflarski wasn't running all the video poker for the entire Outfit. And he wasn't running his own crew or in the administration.

Chicago's power would be similar to the Bonannos/Luchesse

Bonanno's and Lucchese's both have around or over 100 made members while Chicago has only 30 made members and the Bonanno's and Lucchese's have had more indictments meaning there more active and involved in more crimes than the outfit so I don't see how thats plausible. Chicago is more on the level of new england and philly

Exactly. Decades ago Chicago could be compared to some of those families but certainly not today.

Chicago isn't like NYC like you said they don't "make" as many people. They certainly have more influence than Colombos and New England

The modern day Outfit is behind all the of the NY families, including the Colombos.

Ivy, if it makes you feel better, I believe that all the available evidence suggests that:

1) The Outfit is less active than Philly. Italian-American assimilation did in the Outfit; Philly seems to still have a pool of youngish Italian-American guys willing to get involved. (And yes guys I am aware of the existence of Nick Ferriola.)

2) The Outfit seems to be more on par with New England, and maybe even somewhat less so.

3) The Outfit is beginning to turn into what Detroit is like now, and in a decade or so will be like what Buffalo is like now.

4) The Sarno case probably shows a good example of what the remaining Outfit street rackets are like. Or were like a few years ago. Look at the case, and consider the fact that people were speculating that he was the boss at the time; it speaks volumes.

I'm going to keep saying this stuff until someone comes along with something REAL to prove me wrong. I will cheerfully admit I'm wrong if someone actually proves it - I always do!

I agree with the above, but not so sure about the reason. I think the Outfit is crumbling due to, one, the feds have crushed it, two, there are really no concentrated areas of utterly impoverished Italians anymore, and Italian immigration started petering out around 1920. So what we see now are basically the sons of the last wave of first generation Italian immigrants.

The sons of Outfit members have gone on to do very well for themselves in many cases in legitimate professions. Meaning, in many cases, the fathers were just doing what they thought they had to do to support their families, and didn't let their kids get anywhere near it. And the more succesful members have been disinvesting themselves from illegal activities for a long time, transfering those assets into legal ventures.

In that sense, I would consider the Outfit extraordinarily succesful and sophisticated.

Part of the equation is being able to recognize when it's over.

Well first, I think New England and Philadelphia are very comparable. In terms of both size and activity. The only difference is that Philadelphia has more younger guys. But if you look at the cases over the past decade, the families more or less mirror one another.

Second, if you look at the quantity of cases in Chicago over the last decade, it's actually comparable to New England or Philadelphia. But Chicago can be a little harder to read, as the LCN connection isn't always as clear. By that I mean, while there aren't that many "Family Secret" type indictments where it clearly involves the Outfit, there are a lot of cases that have Outfit "trappings," for lack of a better word. And, according to the estimates, the total manpower in the Chicago mob is the same as New England or Philadelphia but the member-to-associate ratio is a little different.

Beyond that, there does seem to be more involvement in legitimate businesses in Chicago. Some would argue that makes the Outfit more powerful than New England or Philadelphia. But it could also be argued that the Outfit is simply closer to merging into legitimate society, which will ultimately coincide with the crime family disappearing. After all, once you no longer have that core of made guys who do all the criminal stuff, in addition to the legit stuff, all you really have left is legit businesses owned by guys (or the children of guys) who used to belong to a viable mob family.

Bridgeport, Elmwood, Melrose, River Grove, Norridge are all still very Italian

True Nicky, but with the Outfits smaller size and shrinking influence how many of those kids want to be in the mob? The Five Families will exist for many more years in the future because they have a large pool to recruit from, plus family connections, and some young kid is going to be enticed by the lifestyle. But with DiFronzo doing virtually nothing other than counting his money, you won't see the same level of persistence you see in the tri state area.

Bridgeport probably not more than 10 percent; Melrose and Elmwood probably well less than 50. Not sure about the exact stats but you can look them up on line.

Can't know bridgeport because it's part if Chicago and they dont do specific demographics like that. Elmwood is probably 40% and Melrose probably 25%.

And 123joe Chicago has the 3rd highest Italian population in the country today so there's still people wiling to be involved

Bridgeport is only 35 percent white, and their are a lot of Poles, LIthuanians and just other Caucasians down there. 10 percent would be generous IMO.

IMO the Outfit is for all intents and purposes closing down for business.

Exactly, and this is the most important point. I think a lot of Outfit guys are basically turning into the Todaros. This will make them very soon what Detroit is like now and then Buffalo shortly thereafter. I don't even't think it will take that long. 10-20 years maybe, probably no more than that.

Very well put guys. Jonny your comments above would make a good closing paragraph for an Outfit history book.

Sometimes you'll hear people say "but there are still lots of Italians in (insert city with dying mob family here)" and that says it all. In Chicago, there are still hundreds of thousands of Italian-Americans, but not too many of them seem to want to become gangsters. The lack of mafiosi in spite of the continued presence of lots of Italians shows that it's not the preferred line of work for the assimilated.

I do think this was really moved along by GAMBAT and Strawman I and II ("Strawmen"?). Probably sped up the death of the Outfit by 20-30 years or so.

Now I'm not quite sure how important Family Secret was; I've heard comments ranging from "the feds were picking on a bunch of dinosaurs and wasting taxpayer money", through "Marcello really was the guy who was going to put it back together and taking him out was crucial for the feds". I don't know much about this so I yield the floor on this matter.

Hi Ivan,

Regarding Family Secrets, I don’t know if Marcello would have been a big influence in bringing the Outfit back to strength. He was in prison from 95-03, then back to prison for FS in 05. From what I’ve read his rackets appear to have been the same old, same old, so nothing new there. In terms of the other guys, Frank Sr. had been in prison since 95. Hard to say how involved Lombardo was at that point, if I was a betting man, he appeared pretty gun shy and had been trying very, very hard to not go back to prison. Schiro and Doyle of course were basically non-factors.

One thing I occassionally wonder about is the possibility of any of the above flipping. Some of the mobsters of course talk the talk and walk the walk, but I have to say it seems like if you were literally facing the rest of your life in prison with zero chance for parole, it would be pretty tempting to start singing.

From a purely selfish standpoint, I think it would be amazing to read, for instance, Lombardo’s completely unvarnished life story—if he really told everything he ever knew and everything he had ever heard. He must know nearly everything about the Outfit.

Originally Posted By: Ivan

Sometimes you'll hear people say "but there are still lots of Italians in (insert city with dying mob family here)" and that says it all. In Chicago, there are still hundreds of thousands of Italian-Americans, but not too many of them seem to want to become gangsters. The lack of mafiosi in spite of the continued presence of lots of Italians shows that it's not the preferred line of work for the assimilated.

True.
Very well put.

You guys don't know shit about Chicago

I live in the city and there is not much that i can say other than a couple guys that are making book and lending short money, i know a couple younger guys who sell a shitload of pills and im not talking just painkiller, cancer meds, dick pills, and they also move alot of weed. Also burglerys are always a money-maker there's not alot of news but they happen all the time, but its nothing like it was in the 90's or even early 00's. There's some activity in the surburbs too and the chicagoland area just seems to be wide open.

SsWaue86,

Do the names Giachinno, Anthony Catalano or Michael DeFilippis mean anything to you.

Just the same shit you probably heard. The pill doc, a murder vic, and a missing person right? Dr's like giachinno are a dime a dozen so that is nothing new. i dont know how Anthony Catalano or Michael Deflilppis were tied to the outfit though.
Why?

There was an article over on ANP hypothisizing that they were pushing pills for him. Apparently Fosco had a "source," if I remember correctly. The implication was that they were going to flip and Giachinno had them murdered.

No idea if there is any truth to it. Except Giachinno does seem like a real nut.

Yeah he does but Fosco has his own adgenda and i dont see the doc having a enough juice to get that done, but i know anyhing's possiable. What are your thought's on it?

The same as yours. I can't picture DiFronzo signing off on that. And they also made one guy disappear while bludgeoning the other to death, which would be pretty sloppy.

And you are right, Fosco always has an agenda and even though it's a very interesting site you always have to take everything with a grain of salt. (Or, rather, was an interesting site.)

You know they say marco got shelved an Vena's been the "Blue-collar boss".

Maybe shelved is the wrong word, maybe he didnt want the heat but i heard he's just enjoying the later years of his life and that al vena is the street boss or whatever is left out there, have you heard that?

Haven't heard that about Marco but it would certainly makes sense as he has kept his name out of the papers for a long time.

And yes on the other thing, several times.

Well from what i heard Joe A, is sick and living out his days in florida, joe kong is also sick and chris spina got what he had let, i guess toots is still makeing money, and at this point i think that its pretty rough out here for these guys not alot of money and alot of headaches, i know there's still some sort of pecking order but i wouldnt say it a heriarchal thing cause i know guys who do what they want and worry about the fallout later. What do you think is left?

Dont know much about Chicago, however anyone trying to fill Accardo's shoes would have had a tough time! The guy was so many things. Ruthless, genius, stradegy etc.

Sounds like you have your ear more to the ground than I do. Definitely heard that about The Builder.

Would make sense that Toots is still making money, in Family Secrets the little current activity that was mentioned taking place in the city was all in Bridgeport (ie Talarico admitting he still had a book and a couple other things like that.)

I guess sense Sarno went away for it you have to figure that they still have some of the video poker stuff, although in another thread on this forum there is a link to all the FBI docs from the trial, including Marcello's take from the video poker stuff, and someone who was familiar with that biz in NY said the take was pretty low/not very good.

It was mentioned on ANP that the real money for DiFronzo is the Aruba casino, which makes perfect sense.

Basically from what I've heard they have the offshore casinos, the video poker thing, a limited amount of bookmaking and a limited amount of loan sharking, and that's about it.

Obviously the Internet has cut into their bookmaking, as payday loans, high APR credit cards, etc. have cut into their loansharking.

I've heard between D&P, the car dealerships, and Aurba he's out of the game. I know that their book and loansharking is still intact and a profitable one at that, there also banking of the poker machines shit there in every bar between here and Rockford. Speaking of Rockford i've spent some time there they gotta nice book and theres still money out there granted its not alot but i think for the 5 or 6 guys it a modest money maker. I heard something about solly d maybe having some juice but i dont belive it the guy is a OLD man. Nick F hasn't been heard form since he was realeased but i know he had some cash put away so it would make sence but then agian he could be under the rader. It's really just a guessing game i know there's a pecking order but as far as a herarchial orginagtion i just dont know between the different crews and what not i think alot is been up for grabs since FS, but please if you know anything im all ears its nice to have a convo with another windy city poster without talking about the Outfit being all powerful and 100+ Made guys on the street.

Bout time we got a couple Chicago posters who know what they're talking about lol except for Mark.

Joe,

I think a big part of the problem is just that there is so little going on with the Outift there isn't a lot to talk about... but this forum is a great place to talk about stuff with other mob enthusiasts!

SgWaue86,

Yes, great speaking with you as well. The guys who think the Outfit is stronger than ever, etc. are crazy.

I would definitely agree about it being "wide open." I once asked Fosco how, if you don't have guys like Harry Aleman running around killing people every 10 minutes, the Outfit prevents other people from starting books, etc. My exact question was: "Why can't a kid with a cell phone just set up a book?" He said that there are people who do that but that nobody gets paid, which is what keeps the Outfit bookies in business. (ie the other guys are amateurs and don't have a big enough bank.) I suppose that sounds plausible.

Ha... it would be an interesting experiment, to see if you could just set up a book somewhere around town, or put money on the street. I would guess that nobody would f**k with you, but who knows.

I have no way of knowing but I would guess it would be like, if you tried to open a book in Bridgeport, you would hear from someone. If you tried to do it in Lincoln Park? Probably not.

But I really don't know.

You guys are obviously talking about a person or family with lots of money. I have a question that would apply to anyone in such a position. Why on earth would anyone with millions of dollars continue in an enterprise or business that could eventually cause them to lose their freedom ? I understand greed could certainly be a reason, but given the advanced age of some of these guys and the risks involved, it just seems to me that common sense would prevail. Get out and let the younger guys do whatever they need to do.

I know very little about this particular matter, but it would seem to make sense or apply to anyone in a similar situation.

Power and duty!

Interesting question Gary. I have often wondered that myself: Why on earth would someone like DiFronzo do #anything# criminal these days? He's 85 and rich! What could be worth the risk?

I think a lot of them did get out as quick as they could essentially. But for those who didn't: 1) In the past you simply were not allowed to 2) They were in so deep that it was probably better to try and stay involved to keep your eye on things since if they went south you were in all likelihood sunk

They say that CEOs share more psychopathic traits with killers than any profession. I imagine, as Harlem says, just can't give up the power

Some of them are not as wealthy as you would imagine. They have a lot of money, but maybe not so much as to just be able to totally walk away

And some of them are just loonytunes and probably love it.

But I think you're right, that any sane person would, particularly in this day and age, leave it behind at the first opportunity.

Sometimes you think about these guys though... they are nuts. Jimmy Marcello would probably seem like a nice guy if you knew him casually. In reality he's someone who has, probably multiple times, beaten other men to death.

A lot of these guys are cut from a different cloth.

Did you watch those "Iceman" interviews with Kuklisnki?

The pyschiatrist's analysis of him was interesting.

Yes, I did watch the Iceman interviews and it was chilling to say the least. I actually ordered the video and had a friend of mine,who is a psychologist, watch it. He totally agreed with the psychiatrist. He also said something similar to your comment about "cut from a different cloth." His comment was, " he swings from a different limb."

I did do a little "homework" on JF and found basically what was stated in an earlier post about the garbage/trash business and auto dealerships. Also, I did hear that his net worth was between 50-100 million. Is this accurate? Sounds really high.

It just seems to me that with the increased govt. surveillance and the risks involved, these guys, or any person involved in a criminal enterprise, would want to spend their remaining years in a non - restrictive environment.

Anyway, you guys know a heck of a lot about the goings-on in Chicago. Being from East Tennessee limits my knowledge of..........just about everything !

Thanks for the info.

Hi Gary,

$50-$100 million would seem really high, but who knows. He's been in the game a looong time. He's been at or near the top for decades.

The funny thing is what does he spend it on?! LOL. Maybe he owns yachts and stuff in other countries. From what I've heard he drives a pick-up and lives in a very modest apartment building.

Yeah i would be surprised if it was over 15 million. Also than money go out faster than it comes in and with him keeping his name outta things i,m sure he's paying a hefty sum to his lawyers but i only guessing on that but i just don't see it being over 10, but then again Jimmy mercello offered up 12.5 million in bond during FS but that was real estate. My guess would be between 5-10 million that he can touch.

Difronzo is worth over 30 million

Exactly, Marcello offered up $12 million in real estate, most of it in his family's name. I'm sure it's his.

Joe Fosco said DiFronzo was cheap and never gave anyone anything except maybe but a drink now and again! Ha!

I guess he worked hard for it, killing all those people, he wants to keep it.

SgWaue86, did you ever go to the Loon? I didn't but went to the My Way. I think it's closed now. Funny that was the meeting spot for the Outfit. It was like a glorified Denny's.

One place that was actually pretty good is, the old Armory Lounge is now a place called Andrea's Restaurant. It's actually a pretty good diner. Funny to sit there and eat and think how Ginacana ordered the executions of 200 plus people from there.

Yeah he very well could be, but i think that the figure is closer to 10-15 million that is readily avaiable but then agian im just guessing. There's no tax return for these guys and i dont know what he's pulling from the car dealerships and D&P but 30-50 million is a whole lotta money but it's completey possiable.

No i never went to the Loon but i bet there business has improved since that I-Team report. I guess if you really think about it it's easy to say all the real-estate,car dealships, constuction companies, and other things we dont know about it would be easy to say yeah 30-50 so it's anyone's guess. The price for land is the city is insane too so i can see it now that i think about it but it also wouldn't surprise me if it came out that he's worth less than 10.

Read it on ANP

Also said Marco and Joe are worth 15 million

I really don't have the faintest clue. Except you can say when he started it was probably raking in billions per year, and he was very high up during some of the glory years, and now he is the chief, and he doesn't strike me as a particularly benevolent person so it wouldn't surprise me if he was, for instance, taking a ton off the top re: the casino.

Ha... Bobby Abbinanti owned the My Way but I think it's closed.

What kind of dimwit would hire D&P. "I think I'll get in bed with the mob... they seem pretty cool."

Good to see the great discussion about our home town bad boys. Well done, fellas!

If only some of these f***kers would get arrested, there'd be more to talk about!

Only the City of Chicago, at least a few years ago before it became big news. But then again, no one ever said the City of Chicago government was very smart.

I agree. He probably has to much money to even consider it though. His family is probably taken care of and not losing anything to pay back his debts.

Would be interesting just because so much is not know about the outfit, compared to NYC. Nick Calabrese flipped and we learned so much and he wasn't even a major player. Lombardo has been a major player for what? 40 years?

all the five families do is get indicted and snitch on each other

you compare chicago to boston but boston just had some capos turn state

white crooks don't get arrested often in illinois so you can't base the syndicates production based on the fact they don't get indicted. not too mention that the syndicate is based in the suburbs of chicago and rural areas of illinois. so them getting arrested doesn't happen because they're either running the town politically or juicing the town through contracts

I could set up shop this day in jersey, Jersey not chicago, and i wouldnt worry about getting a visit. And i live 10 min from Tony Sopranos house, to give u a picture... Who gets shaken down? Dumb ass bookies who play gangster. If u control the limits of ur guys u dont have to get tough or worry about them paying.... If ur worrying, they are worrying. Thats how u get caught, bettors run to the cops or a made dude. And ur fuckeddddd.... There are several low key books in NJ. Not all are small either! Makes me wanna make book in south philly! Tell those marmondano brothers to kiss my ass...

Great points. I can definitely see the fact that his family is sitting pretty as a reason for someone like Lumbo not to flip. Wiki says he's been in the Outfit since the 50s, so more like 60 years. That's why I say he would probably know virtually everything. Same with No Nose.

But I doubt it will ever happen.

It's also possible that these guys did so much fu##ed up shit that they simply couldn't face it all.

You should come here and take over like the guy on "Site Takeover!"

Heya punk call me papers... Ya heard? Lmao good idea!

If I knew how to start a book I would consider it!

just finished reading family affair by sam giancana and scott burnstein, good read. the accardo book by william f roemer is shit though only halfway through and doubt ill finish it. bit boring and focuses on a lot of irrelevant backstory stuff too much. read anthony casso's bio a few months ago - decent read.

Not that hard! Get a sheet

I actually thought Accardo: The Genuine Godfather was Roemer's best book.

Accardo: The Genuine Godfather

There were some errors relative to names, places, etc., but I thought the book was okay. I did some cross- referencing (FBI files) and what little I could find proved to be accurate.

I do think the book focused a little too much on Mr. Roemer.

The worst Outfit book is Double Cross. Total crap.

if the new york families were so strong then why are there so many rats?

do you have a giant telescope that lets you see into chicago?

you don't even know what towns the syndicate operates in but u know so much about what's going on in the chicago area. the new york mobs are full of cooperators and don't have a monopoly on crime anymore so how are they so powerful

Rats are certainly one criteria to judge a family's strength but not the only one. The Colombos are 4 times the size of the Outfit, for instance.



Yeah, it's made up of indictments and reports indicating the current state of the family.



I don't need to know certain particulars to know the general state of the modern day Outfit. And keep in mind that even in New York far more members don't flip than do. The guys that flip just get more attention. The NY families are still the strongest, as they've always been and always will be, because they're the largest, most active, most diversified, most expansive, etc.

New York are still involved in things Chicago isn't. Many New York families still have ties to unions, construction, garbage, cement, drywall, carpenters, the docks, etc. Last time there was a union involving Chicago I think was when Caruso and his brothers were kicked out of a laborers local.

DiFronzo has D&P but that's just one company. Take the recent garbage case we've seen in New York. It defintely will not be the last. Add on the massive books and loansharking operations NYC crews run that's a hell of a lot of money.

I think what sets New York apart is that even with today's law enforcement they are always trying to find new industries to move into, and new more sophisticated ways of making money. I defintely don't see that from Chicago. I think they are still around but are fading.

Yeah, the New York families have been the only ones who have consistently been involved in large financial scams in recent years. I say consistently because Chicago, for instance, has had a few cases. Anthony Boscarino recently pled guilty to running a multi-million dollar internet gambling investment scam. Back in 2002, Nick Boscarino and another guy were involved in an insurance scam. And, of course, there was the case involving the siphoning off of $10 million from the city of Cicero back in 2001.

The NY families also still have a significant stake in the drug trade, though one can argue that the Outfit benefits from staying out of narcotics.

Outfit involvement in unions in recent years is interesting. There really hasn't been a labor racketeering indictment directly related to the Outfit since the 1990's. A lot of guys were booted from the Laborers Union in the late 1990's and the Carusos held out for a few years after that. There was the big RISE investigation into ongoing Outfit involvement with the Teamsters. And various allegations involving 9 IBT locals in Chicago were included. But nothing that ever actually resulted in an indictment. In 2004, Pudgy Matassa was reported to be running Amalgamated Transit Workers Union Local 711 but it was said to be small and struggling financially. Fosco made allegations about the DiFronzos meddling in Teamsters Local 703 but nothing seems to have come from that either.

I see it this way. LE constantly has to indict NYC guys to keep them down or else they'll just rebuild. With Chicago I don't think the Feds are trying quite as hard or even need to.

That's a good way to put it. Back in the 1999 UN report on the LCN, it said that while the LCN remained a significant priority in the New York area, things were "under control" elsewhere. General attrition has always done most of the work at killing off LCN families. Indictments just help the process along. And now, with the remaining small families outside New York, it doesn't take as much resources to keep them in check while attrition takes it's toll. During the 1990's, the FBI had two squads investigating the Outfit - one for the Cicero crew and one for the 26th Street crew. Now it has one and it also investigates other organized crime in addition to the Outfit.

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague

Originally Posted By: cookcounty

if the new york families were so strong then why are there so many rats?

Rats are certainly one criteria to judge a family's strength but not the only one. The Colombos are 4 times the size of the Outfit, for instance.

Quote:

do you have a giant telescope that lets you see into chicago?

Yeah, it's made up of indictments and reports indicating the current state of the family.

Quote:

you don't even know what towns the syndicate operates in but u know so much about what's going on in the chicago area. the new york mobs are full of cooperators and don't have a monopoly on crime anymore so how are they so powerful

I don't need to know certain particulars to know the general state of the modern day Outfit. And keep in mind that even in New York far more members don't flip than do. The guys that flip just get more attention. The NY families are still the strongest, as they've always been and always will be, because they're the largest, most active, most diversified, most expansive, etc.

how can you judge activity if you don't know certain particulars?

and you're a goddamn idiot if you think the italians aren't involved in construction in chicago, or that they don't contracts. the difronzos had a company that were rehabbing or doing something around those lines with the chicago public school system

illinois is far more of a crooked atmosphere than new york

use common sense instead of wishful thinking

It's hard to put a label on the Outfit because we know so little about them, even in today's world. None of us can say for sure. But my feeling is that DiFronzo, Andriacchi, D'Amico, and the older guys just don't have the stomach for it anymore. They're probably rich as hell they don't need to bust heads anymore. Whatever they do is out of obligation, but since they aren't making anyone as far we know, it doesn't look like they've set up a structure for the future. I honestly think they're calling it quits

I wish someone would tell u this

Add to what you just said, the risk of spending the remainig years of their life in jail and I believe you just nailed it. No reason to continue.........too risky.

Particulars like, as you mentioned, what towns the Outfit operates in. I actually do know a lot of them, from both articles and indictments on the Chicago mob, but I wouldn't need to in order to be aware of the general state of things.



The DiFronzos certainly are involved in construction. They're the first example that always comes up. There's been several news stories on them and the contracts they've gotten in recent years. But there aren't many examples beyond that, though I'm sure some other members and associates also are involved. There actually seems to be more Outfit involvement in the trucking business today than in construction.



Don't equate general corruption in Illionis, or Chicago itself, to the Outfit.



I have no reason to use wishful thinking. I have no dog in this fight. It makes it easy for me to look at this without any bias or agenda.

That would probably be a safe bet. When looking at whoever is running the Outfit today, I don't think it's going to be DiFronzo or Andriacchi. I'm not saying they have lost their "elder statesman" status but, as far as running things, it's going to be whoever filled Sarno's shoes. Just as Sarno filled Marcello's shoes. These were the guys who more directly running the Outfit in recent years.

It is also worth noting that Sarno is generally considered an idiot. Some of the early guys were borderline brilliant, the younger known guys now are almost universally perceived as sub-average at best.

Sarno's a friggin whale too. He puts free Willy to shame. He looks like a slob with that lion's mane of hair he has and his Homer Simpson beer gut

He's freaking huge. I went to the trial to watch. He is a large, large man.

Of course that photo of him with long hair is from years ago. This is what he looks like now...

And to think Sarno is only 55; right?!!!

Per the pic above "Make dat two beef sangwichs"

NO its not an exaggeration trust me

Im saying you got this website Created by the new york mob Dickriding the new york mob. The five families never tried sh** with the Chicago Outfit none of the five families. yall biggest jackpot was what 6 million of a plane robbery a century ago. Come on now!!!!!!!!!

That's what im saying. Site Created by NYC people don't believe everyone on here.

Regardless, most tell it like it is. The New Yorkers here are very open to all. Yes, we are "homers" however we call it like it is.

you don't need a lot of made man f*ck wrong with you!!! Chicago Outfit has a history of keeping heat low, unlike the Five Families who people like to believe aren't on the same team here guys!!! open your eyes

What the fuck are you talking about show me an outfit realted bust in the last 3 years and then show me busts on one of the five familes. i dont give a fuck how smart you are if you are in that life it will catch up to you, and anybody who's been around will tell you the same thing. I from Chicago True Blue its the Cubs year.

What in God's name are you talking like that for? Do you realize you sound like an idiot?

The Outfit had a ton of busts in the 1980's and 1990's. With some rare exceptions, all of their top guys were imprisoned.

Sarno convicted in 2010; Fratto last year...that's about it. The two Outfit-related geriatrics who were going to attempt to break into LaPietra's fortress, but that points to what a weak state the Outfit is in if anything.

Weird how nobody (well except for you and me haha) ever mentions this. Especially, Strawman and GAMBAT were really big deals that were every bit as devastating as the Commission Case was to New York (actually more so, in terms of reducing the Outfit to the minor leagues).

Tony Accardo did a good job of staying out of trouble, but the rest of them pretty much got busted like Colombo leaders have been.

I think I'm going to start a thread speculating that Accardo avoided prison by being an informer, just to piss off the fanboys.

I don't think anyone who knows the first thing about the Outfit would argue that Strawman and Gambat were devastating. There were a ton of smaller busts as well. Very few upper echelon guys have avoided lengthy prison stretches.

first you say chicago ain't involved in construction

now you're claiming they are involved in construction just not much

now you know about chicago's trucking industry and it's syndicate ties

how far does that telescope see and how much did it cost?

kanye west

Rahm Emmanuel, He's so powerful he didn't even need to be a resident of Chicago to run for office there. And any man who was a ballerina and still shows his face in public must have power. Correct Ronnie?

Being removed from Vegas and losing their political power base in the First Ward weren't big deals? Seems to me like those were two major factors in turning them into more of a street level operation.

"...And don't ferget a cupla dose Old Stylesss, my friend!"

There's also the Pendorf and Greylord cases. I believe Pendorf was different than Strawman. All these cases / operations dealt a severe blow to the Outfit. Add the smaller cases and it's easy to see why the Outfit has been decimated.

Not saying they're gone, just severely injured.

Typo! Meant to say "weren't!" Lol.

Yes they WERE devestating...as are the ones Gary mentions above.

Oh ok, I was wondering what you might have meant there.

Your reading comprehension is piss poor. Or you're trying to set up strawman arguments to knock down. When the hell did I say the Outfit wasn't involved in construction? Everyone knows about DiFronzo's companies - D&P and JKS Ventures. However, those are more trucking/waste companies then actual construction companies. There were also several Outfit-connected trucking companies involved in the "Hired Truck" program. As far as construction itself, Andriacchi was said to have interests in the business, at least in the past. And there were certainly more interests before so many Outfit guys got booted from the Laborers Union in the late 1990's and early 2000's. Not a lot of examples in recent years, especially compared to New York.

*

Do any of you Chicago guys, or anyone else, know if there is a book about Murray Humphreys? I can't imagine why someone hasn't written one. Humphreys was a "master fixer," and I don't recall reading about other criminal organizations having someone with the abilities of Humphreys; but there very well could have been.

I know this post refers to the Old Outfit, but there doesn't seem to be any news available relative to the current goings-on in Chicago.

Russo's The Outfit is practically a 500 page bio on Humphreys.

I don't know if it's because he had the best access to people close to Humphreys (he had extensive interviews with his daughter and second wife), or because he really thought Humphreys was the mastermind, but that was the picture he painted.

From that book you can basically attribute every noteworthy thing they did to Humphreys.

I was not aware there were 500 FBI agents assigned to Chicago, and 100 specifically focused on OC.


http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/08/12/grant-organized-crime-alive-and-well-in-chicago/

It's kind of vaguely worded. I'm sure they don't want to show their cards with exactly how many agents are focusing full time, or the majority of their time, on the Outfit, but I would guess it's not too many.

Yeah, the 100 sounded high, but he did say organized crime which encompasses more than The Outfit. But I think you're right, they would not "show their hand" in terms of where their resources are focused. I was surprised to hear him say there are 500 agents in Chicago. But again, maybe he's not being totally candid.

Who knows about these things. We could pick up the paper or turn on tv and see where a new round of indictments has been handed down, or we could go for years without any significant arrests or indictments. Whatever the situation, The Outfit has been dealt some serious setbacks and no doubt staying quiet, real quiet.

Our prison system is funny. IMO we coddle people too much. People like Frank Calabrese or Lombardo, they should just throw them in solitary with no privliges, no yard time, no visitors, no books, no nothing, until they crack and start talking.

Not all of them would flip but many would. Outfit would be gone in a couple years.

This remind me of something I've been wanting to ask. Any chance James Marcello might turn? He's 69 and could have some good years left. He seems pretty hard-core, but maybe, just maybe a deal could be cut. He would at least be able to see his family, although he might have some explaining to do about his mistress.

Also, I believe his brother, Michael, was released last fall. Any news about him?

Judges like Diane Wood (7th Court of Appeals) would be appalled at such treatment of these criminals. I better stop before I get carried away, but I know what you're saying; there are ways to "encourage" these characters to be more cooperative.

Totally. Yeah, that was the dumb ass who wanted to let him go!

I mean, if I was Marcello, I would flip. F**k it. Either that or you're dying in jail.

We were talking about this in another thread, or maybe even earlier in this one... one reason could be that their families are still being taken care of.

Although they certainly were kind of dumb when it came to Nick Calabrese. Little Jimmy was giving his family a measly $40K a year while he was in the can in hopes Nick would leave him out of it.

It worked for a while and Nick originally didn't name Marcello. Then he changed his mind.

Seems like if someone has you by the b**ls like that and you are worth millions, a more substantial investment than $4K a month might be in order!

Die in jail like man, easy for you to Rat. However its hard for everyone else in your blood family to live day to day with. Ask Tom Cafaro! Another Mutt in my opinion.

John - what happened to the farm / ranch the govt was trying to seize as part of Marcello's assists ? The last I heard the farm / ranch was still in litigation. I know the judgement against him was substantial, but I either can't remember or didn't read about the outcome.

Have you heard anything?

No, his name hasn't come up forever. Haven't heard anything since the appeal. A lot of his stuff appeared to be in other peoples' names, so they probably have to prove it's his, etc.

FWIW - I could never see Marcello flipping. He seems to be old school and rooted. @jonnynonos - where do these guys mostly hang out these days? Don't have to answer if you don't want - just curious.

Marcello would never even think about flipping

I'll PM you.

Thanks.

You guys could be right about Marcello. I personally cannot imagine spending the rest of my life in prison without the possibility of getting out.

But then again I can't imagine kicking people to death.

His Brother Mike Flipped, and named matsassa as the source for the leak in WP. I think that alone shows the current state of things in the outfit.

You are right I forgot about that!

And now he's out. Got out of his 9 year sentence.

chicago doesn't have "crime fighters"

you get further in chicago by looking the other way

new york is full of snitches and that's why there's more info on them

Chicago is the most corrupt city in America. That's not a good thing. There's so many crooks and backstabbers in that place it's sickening. The state of Illinois should be more focused on cleaning up its justice system than a bunch of old geezers that take bets and are fading out into obscurity

Isnt Barack Hussian Obama from Chicago? Hmm. So he didnt stomp out all the rich folk there cheating the man before coming to Washington?

My Dad says that constantly when I discuss how corrupt Chicago is. "Remember that's where your President comes from"

I grew up in bridge port, and I know most of the grand ave crews theres more then just 28-30 made guys and ahell of alot more soilders then 100 and I no more than 50 want-to-be's that do work for the outfit, the family secrets trial didn't jam up anyone, just a fyI only one made has member has ever flipped on the chicago outfit, and thats nick C. And he only flipped on his own crew. And brother. And joey the the clown was already on the outs with the outfit for what he pulled in 95. And they didn't give a shit about him. The fed's made that trial seem bigger than it was. The chicago mob is alive and well in the windy city. That chart is so wrong they got made members and street bosses listed as soilder.witch is fine with them( the members) but the chart is wrong and I know guys that arn't listed at all.

The FBI disagrees with you.

Skinny. You are 100% correct on all accounts.

Thanks cheech

The FBI is in Chicago just like anywhere else. And Chicago has had plenty of snitches, just not a lot of them made guys. But that could be due to their relative low number of made members as much as anything. Furthermore, in terms of relative size, one member flipping in Chicago is like 4 or 5 guys flipping in 1 of the smaller NY families. Look how much damage Nick Calabrese did.

Also, did you happen to see this article that talks about the feds having 2 high ranking informants in the Outfit. One for over 25 years and the other for almost 20 years.
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/iteam&id=7446674



Geographic claim? Check.

Inflated membership claim? Check.

Feds are full of shit? Check.

Gives the "real" scoop? Check.

All you guys follow the same manual.

I seem to remember Frank Cullotta flipping big time and taking a lot of Outfit guys down during the "Casino" days. Granted, Spilotro was going to kill him causing his decision to flip.

Eto caused alot of damage to i think he got Solano, Infelice, Belliva, Solly D, and others if i remember correctly, it may not have been directly cause of him but i know after that they took alot of damage.

If Spilotro didn't put a hit on him he would of never flipped

There is documentary on Eto that looks really good but it is in Japanese and I don't think they translated it to English.

Fosco has a gruesome article on how (he says) DiFronzo and Sam Carlisi murdered Campise and Gattuso... complete with a "surprise" ending that caused quite a sensation.

Yeah Fosco said he came all over himself, IMO it's bullshit but who knows, but as we all know Fosco has his own agenda. All i know is Eto hurt them pretty bad and lost a good money maker after they wacked Gattuso even if he was a REAL scumbag, i think his F.B.I file says he ran alot of gay bars and pushed a shit load of porn.

Hahahaha... that's funny re: Gatuso.

In the FBI file on Marcello he's talking to his brother and he makes a comment to his brother, laughing, about how Lombardo ran more scams/shakesdowns than anyone, I forget the exact wording.

I don't believe the thing about Bananas either. It sounds like a Chuck Palanchuk story. Who knows if that is even physiologically possible.

I wonder how much gambling there still is in Chinatown. Did you read When Corruption Was King? Talks a lot about the Outfit's relationship to the Chinese in Chinatown, various shady merchant's associations, etc.

The Chinese are huge gamblers. I would guess there is still some action over there.

Can you link Marcello's file i've yet to see it and would love to read it? And you with the Cubbie's or the other guys.

Fosco didn't lose me with the ejaculation claim but with his line about "getting justice" for Campise and Gattuso. I know you hate DiFronzo, Joe, but c'mon. They were criminals themselves who chose that life and got what was coming.

It's actually it's own topic somewhere in here in the "Real Life" strain, I think it's called Family Secrets Files or something like that. If you can't find it LMK and I'll take a look for it later.

I originally am from an area with a far superior baseball team, so neither really, but more a Sox guy.

That is a ridiculous idea. They were killed for trying to kill somebody who's hands were likely cleaner than their own.

Must be surreal to be in that position that they were in though.. to know they are likely coming after you!

Funny how some of these guys don't head for the hills. Like Michael (or was it Tony?) Spilotro, he took off all his jewelry and told his wife that if he wasn't back by the end of the night something bad had happened.

Might be a good time to pack up the RV and kids and head for the Bayou.

I am not saying the Feds are full of shit but they have been wrong. For years they said Chicago made guys with a handshake. Prior to Nick C. cooperating they had no idea Aiuppa started the formal LCN ceremony. Feds said Chiaramonti was killed in 2001 over video poker dispute which doesn't seem to be the case. They were wrong about the status of Lombardo and Tornabene as well.

That is a good point.

You know who wasn't wrong?

Howard Abidansky. When everyone was wondering where Lombardo had jetted too, from Florida to Italy, he predicted that he would not be able to function outside of the area. And he was absolutely correct.

I though Jahoda flipped and got Infelice.

Here's a link to some Family Secrets Trial files. Some of these download so slowly that I just skipped them.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/iln/hot/familySecrets.html

The only "major" loss from family secrets was Marcello.

there have been countless chances for syndicates members to snitch

they don't tell on each other in chicago for whatever reason

they tell on each other in droves in the big apple

Was that Joe Lombardo on the outs? Wasn't he a top guy? Or had his time passed?

I don't think anyone really knows. Without going into it too much, he seemed, to my eye, extremely focused on not going back to prison since his previous stint. On the other hand, he is often seen as heading up the Grand Ave crew until he was arrested for FS.

If I was betting I would bet he had severely limited his involvement to try to avoid another indictment.

But that's just a guess.

He was focused on the pasta fazool and veal dishes at LaScarola

I love that place. They actually have a Family Secrets article in the bathroom talking about him.

John Kass' piece on tracking him down there is pretty funny. Lombardo saw him and got his stuff to go.

Kass also once barged into the Old Neighborhood Itaklian American Club and ambushed DiFazio.

Captain D has a picture up in Carmine's as well.

Ha...Rush St. Was dominated by the Outfit until the 70s. Still a lot of guessing as to unnamed parties behind the leases.

Except for Jilly's.

Faces? Wasn't that a good spot?

Yeah but not mobbed up. It was actually one of the first non mob owned places down there. The guy who opened it had grown up on the street and so they let him open. At least that's the story. A ton of mobsters hung out there though. It was basically Studio 54 in Chicago. Before Sudio 54.

I joked about Jilly's because it is owned by Sam DeDtefano's nephew and managed by Michael Spilotro's widow.

Tavern on Rush and Carmine's are both still big hangouts

He was definitely one of the biggest guys on the street before he was arrested but like nonose said, he didn't want to go back to jail so he wasn't very active. He even put at ad in the newspaper saying he wasn't involved.

In a newspaper? WTF!

"I am Joe Lombardo. I have been released on parole from Federal prison. I never took a secret oath with guns and daggers, pricked my finger, drew blood or burned paper to join a criminal organization. If anyone hears my name in connection with any criminal activity please notify the FBI, local police and my parole officer, Ron Kumke."

I love that ad. That is one reason he was called the Clown. He also once walked out of a courthouse and with a newspaper over his face with a hole cut out so he could see.

i wonder if anybody can find that pic of the clown with the cut out newspaper for his eyes and post it on here, ive seen it in a documentary def classic!

http://www.ipsn.org/mob_arrests-2005/clown_011406_285.jpg


Stop Clowning Around Dapper!

^^^your the man

here it is for everybody

The feds said Chicago made guys with a handshake or Roemer and some authors said it? Also, let's not forget that certain facts about some of these guys would have never come to light if it weren't for the feds. It's always ironic that people criticize the feds for when they get things wrong (which is very much in the minority of the time) while depending so much on them for information.

So we agree that the FBI can be wrong.

There wrong a lot, or more often they straight out lie!

is it true that the outfit has none italian members I keep hearing reports that they now have japanese member?

We had this debate a week or so. Think of the non- Italians as "connected to" there certainly not made or members!

They don't have any Japanese members. Your probably thinking of Keno Eto but he wan around in the 60s/70s. In the 20s one of the highest guys up were Jake Guzik who was Polish. Succeeding his role was Gus Alex who was Greek. Then of course there was Murray Humphrey's who was Welsh and probably the highest ranking non-Italian member in Chicago. But none of them were ever made and there was always an Italian higher up. For example when Murray Humphrey's and Gus Alex were around, Ricca and Accardo were higher up. Same with Jake Guzik and Capone. Today there aren't any non-Italians as high up as they were but there are still some Irish, Greeks, Polish, ect associated with them.

my bad 1st day on this site.

What is your avatar, the Merchant of Venice?

The outfit is not involved in western canada at all

That's a stupid claim to make to you have a source for that. Also whose that in your aviator reminds me of my greedy ____ Doctor

Alright Red

wow, crazy interesting...

It's funny if you think about it. Andriacchi, DiFronzo, DAmico, anyone who seems remotely capable, are all old as s**t. So if you figure they have limited operational involvement, the statement effectively translates to:

Pudge Matassa, Albie, Toots, Fratto and a bunch of similarly unimpressive people "control western Canada."

By what mechanism would they "control" it. Perhaps you are suggesting while they don't use violence in Chicago, they're wasting people left or right up there.

Some people, namely Abidansky, have hypothesized this was a message to the rest of the Outfit that he wasn't going/hadn't flipped.

But it could have just been a crazy stunt to try to appear candid and above board... which he may have been by that time.

He lived in a very modest three flat. Actually he got "divorced" so it was in his wife's name, though the authorities say there was really no divorce, it was just another scheme.

NoNos why do you call Toots unimpressive?

Nobody ever said the FBI is infallible. Yes, the FBI can be wrong. But when you take a step back and look at the times they've been wrong relative to when they are right, it's very rare. Certain people like to highlight the times the feds are wrong because they feel it gives them carte blanche to dismiss what the feds say whenever it suits them.

Chicago has that book Westcoast. Big book! Maybe thats what Red is talking about? They got guys in up in canada. Dont know about west ca tho.. Whereever the fuck toronto is.... Southern i thnk.... I Will look at a map....

I am yet to see any report on the Outfit from the FBI that correctly explains the Chicago hierarchy on how Aiuppa restructed the Outfit including such terms as extended crew, franchise, power base etc. Could you please provide some examples on how they have been right relative to wrong?

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you mention "extended crew," "franchise," "power base," etc. At some point, though I don't recall if it was when Aiuppa was boss, the Outfit did add the position of "area boss." It was basically an extra layer in the hierarchy. You had the administration, the area bosses who oversaw a given territory, and the individual crew bosses within that territory. That said, I don't think this set up exists anymore.



Ironically, Lombardo was probably telling the truth; at least in reference to him never going through the ceremony.

What I've read, or some of the articles I've read, indicate that Ricca and Accardo set up the hierarchy with a day-to-day boss with Ricca&Accard retaining final say in the more important decisions. The reason for this was so it would be more difficult for law enforcement to get to R&A. The Boss and underboss (or whatever it's called) were always Italian/Sicilian (may be wrong about underboss) because these were considered the most hardcore old-school mobsters and were less likely to turn. This setup allowed R&A to semi retire and still be involved in The Outfit.

I do recall something about Aiuppa making some "title" changes, but can't recall the specifics. I don't think there would be much disagreement that this setup is no longer in effect. But hey, who knows what is going on with The Outfit ?

Tony Accardo had dry snitch written all over him...

you can google the fbi charts they have for the syndicate

but they change their hierarchy on an as needed basis

franchise means that you're a soldier or associate within a crew and they allow you to set up your own crew within the regular crew

all that powerbase and extended crew shit is just slang

Seriously! How was he the only one to never get caught? Is anyone that lucky? I mean shit the guy was the boss for 40 years and never does anytime?

I haven't seen any credible information indicating he was a snitch, but if such material is available, I would like to see/ read the documentation.

But just like everyone on this forum, you have a right to your opinion.

reminds me of Don Carlo Gambino in NY

King of the Rats there! Remember though, he faked sick a thousand times. I like from the surface Accardo. Just a seriously charmed life if so!

Maybe I am wrong but hasn't the FBI tried to structure the Outfit like a traditional family out of NY?

Michael Corbitt and Sam Giancana (nephew of his namesake, the infamous crime boss) in their book Double Deal, about the Chicago mob scene. Hyman "Hy" Lamer was a Jewish mobster and a close associate of Sam Giancana. In the newspapers he was known as the "The Ivy League Mobster".[1]

Lamer was the head of the Chicago Outfit's slot machine racket.[1] After Eddie Vogel retired from the gambling machine business Lamer became the power behind the scenes.[2]

When he testified in front of the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Improper Activities in Labor and Management in 1959, he invoked his Fifth Amendment rights fifty times.[1]

Lamer expanded the Outfit's gambling and smuggling operations to Latin America, moving the organization's Miami operation to Latin America headquartering in Panama where money laundering was more easily facilitated by local banks. These operations were conducted as a partnership between the Mafia and the CIA. By 1966 this partnership had developed into arms smuggling to the Middle East for the Israeli Mossad, all via Panama.[3]

Hy Lamer had friends among world leaders and key players in the CIA and the U.S. military, and he was also well connected with the Las Vegas bosses like the Teamsters' Allen Dorfman and media mogul Hank Greenspun. wikipedia
the cia tried to structure the mafia.

It's basically that way now. Most of the things that were unique to the Outfit at one time no longer apply.

Prisoner lookup says Nick Calabrese is released. Think that's a function of him being in WITSEC/a prisoner who has "disappeared" from the system for protection purposes, or that he's actually already out.

Wonder where he'll move to.

They seem to have gone to great length to remove all photos of him from the Internet; I've only seen two: One a crummy black and white that has been photocopied numerous time, a mugshot; and the second one was in a video that Chuck Goudy put together. Funny because in that video he had on the big gaudy glasses and was looking very gangster, hardly the picture they painted of him being a nerdy guy who was bullied into everything by his brother.

Interesting:

Goudy also cites the 60 number, with the caveat: "Many of them still out on the streets."

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=6729435

When one takes this into account, as well as the FBI officials who cited 28 and 30 members, I think it's fairly obvious a good chunk of those 60 made members Calabrese identified are no longer living. At least 9 members died between the time Calabrese started cooperating and the time the feds put out those exact numbers.

I agree.

He started singing in 2002. You would have had a heck of a lot more old timers still kicking around from the glory days back then.

U got a link to that video?

Here's a prison release record.

Hope it opens.


http://www.bop.gov/iloc2/InmateFinderSer...amp;x=0&y=0

I'll try to find it... they have dozens of videos from FS up on the site so it may take me a while.

Yeah, that's what I was saying. It says he's "released."

But I think (not positive) that sometimes when someone is in WITSEC the system marks them as "released"... like, to hide them.

But he was scheduled to get out in 2013 so he could be out already.

My unsupported opinion is that he is well into the WPP.

I've never seen this one before.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/iteam&id=8918424

I just watched that!

Stealing bottled water. LOL.

The Outfit they ain't.

I'm sure most of you guys have seen this, but here it is again. I'm still puzzled how J. DiFronzo managed to escape prosecution.

Tap on the blue links for more info.


http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/iteam&id=6761457

You are probably right. It's like they didn't really even want to send NC to jail but just had to. So they sentenced him to 12 years but with time served, parole, etc., he is supposed to be out in 2013.

So he did less than 4 years from the time he was sentenced.

I don't care how he comes off at trial... anyone who can do the things he did to the degree that he did is a stone-cold f**king psychopath!

That's a good one.

The CW is that they didn't have anything to back up Nick's testimony on DiFronzo. With Marcello they had the "voice ID," with Lombardo re: Seifert they had a thumbprint and a couple other things, like witnesses who had heard him bragging about it on the golf course.

But with DiFronzo all they had was Nick's testimony, and they didn't want to bring him to trial and lose.

I paused it when Goudie said "24 men were listed by the FBI as a threat to Nick Calabrese." I got all the names I could. About half of them. It basically seems like it's the same as their "made men" list.

Frank Caruso
Peter DiFronzo
Aldo Piscetelli
Michael Magnifichi
James Inendino
John Matassa
Dino Marino
Michael Sarno
Paul Spano
Joseph Andriachhi
Joey Lombardo
? Marcello
Solly DeLaurentis

It's funny watching the DiFronzo "Lunch With No Nose" video. You see what an instinctive and innate liar he is.

He first denies knowing Marco D'Amico, then, a moment later, attests that he "hasn't seen him around."

He then says it's his first time at the Loon. (Now called the River Cafe I believe.)

I'd rather be broke than have to lie about everything all the time, constantly. These guys live in a state of constant paranoia; I think a lot of them have mental problems.

what about the made guys that nick calabrese had no clue even existed?

did you take into consideration that hitmen don't get told all the secrets?

or should we just go by the lowest number of members cited by the feds?

I don't think it's a stretch to think NIck knew all the made guys.

Hell, we know most of them.

I wish in the lunch with no nose video that they said who the other guys at the table were. It was the 3 DiFronzo brothers and Marco D'Amico but there were like 4 other guys. Any guesses?

I couldn't see anyone clearly enough.

I wonder if it was guys only in his "circle" like elmwood and grand guys. Think anyone of them were Cicero or south side guys?

I don't know but if they were people who were known the "I Team" probably would have noted it.

It was interesting to see D'Amico. I would have never recognized him. That guy has been laying loooooooooooooooow since he got out. That is the only video/photo of him I've seen you can find besides a few ancient mug shots.

I've seen D'Amico's name mentioned a lot over the years. Robert Cooley mentioned him in a video. Cooley implied he was pretty powerful in The Outfit. I just looked at Wikipedia to get some basic info. So what was his status? Sounded like Cooley was saying he controlled quite a few gambling operations.

Oh yeah, Cooley also said he (Cooley) got into some gambling problems and went to see J. DiFronzo and his debt was forgiven. I believe he later gave testimony about JD

Good ole boys!

I think it's generally accepted that Marco was in charge of a lot of the bookmaking. He used to have a "Survivor's Club" down on Taylor Street, which you know if you read Cooley's book. Think he was associated with the Wild Bunch.

Over on the old ANP posts there was always a raging debate over whether Marco was made or not. Fosco vehemently denied he was, the other guys insisted that he was.

No idea why he wouldn't be made but, yeah, he's definitely perceived as being among the very top echelon.

Thanks for the info.

It doesn't do much good to theorize on the unknown, though I'm sure you'd like to in order to justify inflated figures. And in this day and age, the fed's numbers are going to be very close. It's not likely that a large portion of any family is going to fly under the radar. There may be come members that were unknown when then FBI cited 28 and 30 members in 2007 but not enough to make much difference.

Tony Accardo isn't alive anymore to give an accurate number. The FBI had no problem getting people directly under him but couldn't get him???? Either dry snitch or just a figurehead bogeyman of no power.

so nick calabrese gave an inflated number of made guys in 2007?

He didn't give the number in 07. He started talking in 02. Again, it wasn't something he said from the stand, it was a number reported on by the media during the trial that he had given to the feds ostensibly over the entire time he was cooperating, which would have been from 2002-, then, 2007, now present.

The feds then released the 28 number circa 2007 as well.

"We have 28 made members of the Chicago Outfit roaming in the Chicagoland area. We have over 100 associates of the Chicago Outfit," Grant said.

Grant was IN CHARGE of the Chicago FBI Office during the entire case, if that suggests anything to you. He has since moved on to a cushy job in security for Disney World.

There can be virtually no doubt that the 60 number included everyone already in prison and most likely people who were already dead in 2002 and all of those who have died since then.

Get over it!

Well said.

at he end of the day calabrese doesn't know every initiated member

and the feds definitely don't know every initiated member

the only fact is that metropolitan chicago has alot of italians (700k plus) and the chicago area is very crooked so it ain't no telling what's really going on

If you read a lot about this stuff, including the FBI files, you will find the same names coming up for the last 30 years in every wire tap, every file, every arrest etc. The same people get arrested over and over and over; when they fall for a wire, they talk about the same people everyone knows are in the mob.

Yup. There's basically no chance that there are a large number of made guys in Chicago that are flying under the radar today. The official figures may not be exact but they're likely very close.

Didn't Frank Calabrese make reference to a smaller "Christmas Tree"? Hence, a smaller family.

Yes, but more tellingly he told his kid, on a wire, in the late 90s or early 2000s, that all it would take was getting rid of about 7 guys and you could "take the whole thing over." Then he said something along the lines of "It's come to that."

It was from a wire in Coen's book.

I'm not really sure who it would have been. You could find the top guys from back then, but that might not have necessarily been who he was referring to, as some of them were so old they were likely in advisory type roles. He might have been referring to the strongest guys on the street... Toots, Sarno, Marcello etc.

I remember that quote.

I would have to assume he meant guys like Toots, Sarno, Marcello, D'Amico, Greedy Pete, Jimmy I, maybe Solly D.

I mean, would No-Nose, The Builder or the Clown even care then? Probably not and they weren't probably even in a position to do anything.

I agree that they well might not care that much... sure they could have guys knocked down if they need to!

Pretty interesting thread. Some of the guys on here have some good info, others not so much regarding Chicago.

jonnynonos: My Way is indeed closed. They had a bit of trouble. It is now River Cafe as you mentioned.

Does Bobby still own it?

Fosco said DiFronzo and crew were still meeting there regularly when it was the My Way.

I don't want to sound like a smartass, but take Fosco with several grains of salt. However, DiFronzo did still go in there from time to time as My Way. I haven't been in there since it's reopened so I cannot tell you with any honesty if Bobby still owns it.

Yeah I do take what he said with a grain of salt.

DiFronzo is so old I doubt he goes out all that much anymore.

I went to the My Way once, it wasn't bad.

Would be crazy to see all those guys powwowing there, although I guess people who live in the area see them around quite often.

Funny thing, it used to be owned by an Irish family when it was the Loon. Tarpey (who was a former cop and mayor/president of River Grove) would be in there with DiFronzo.

The boys used to hang out at a couple of other places around there, specifically Elmwood Park and River Forest. They still meet for breakfast now and then in River Forest. I think you can figure out the place.

I'll check it out.

So what are your thoughts? These old guys basically retired and shutting down or you think they'll keep making guys, trying to keep going etc?

Seems the term "making guys", "made", and "member" is causing quite a stir in this thread...lol.

My thoughts are if there's money to be made, some guys will choose to try and make it, others won't. One thing I can say with good certainty is that none are in it for the glory, as those days are gone. Do you know what I mean by that? The old timers are like grandfathers. They'll babysit their grandchildren from time to time, bit none are interested in raising them.

I think people just focus on the "made" figure as the only real available metric to take a guess at the size/health.

That is pretty much how I think most of us feel about the old timers.

It seems that once they abandon violence and especially hierarchy though, you can't really call them "the Outfit" anymore.

I think you're right regarding the "made" thing. Honestly, it doesn't really matter anyway except for stat freaks. Either you can get things done or you can't, no matter what anyone labels you. When people can look you straight in the eye and rattle off lie after lie, you're never going to get an accurate handle on the truth no matter who you are.

Putting the 30 or so made members aside, the feds also gave the estimate of a little over 100 associates. So, anyway you cut it, you're looking at a total manpower of about 150 guys. That's comparable to the estimates of the New England or Philadelphia families.

That's about right, give or take. It gets cloudy because of the hanger ons and wannabes. Come to Chicago and hit a few bars. You'll find there's made guys and wiseguys everywhere you look...lol.

This is the way I see it and I think that day is coming very very soon. In 10-20 years they're going to be like Buffalo is now.

There will be some independent racketeers running around, but no structure or kicking up anymore.

you saw the "alleged" fbi chart posted on the real deal forum that i did which stated the syndicate has 50-80 made members (active, inactive, or in jail) and 200-400 associates. so why you always go with the lowest numbers of membership/associates cited seems wishy washy

not too mention that you lied about not seeing the chart and then all of a sudden you knew the person who posted the chart that you said didn't exist

I usually don't weigh in on this topic because of my lack of knowledge about being made. But like ChiShooter said, "what difference does it make? I'm not being coy, I just can't see the difference. I realize in certain parts of the country being made requires the individual to kill someone, and it requires permission from higher-ups to kill a made guy, but that doesn't seem to matter, especially in Chicago. People seem to be doing their own thing.

If you can earn, you're in, if you can't you're not. Are there special privileges bestowed upon you when you become made in Chicago that you would otherwise not possess? More rackets or a bigger cut of the take?

Appears to be more symbolic than anything else. Could be wrong!

Seeing how things are now, I'd say they're going to be like Buffalo in only ten years. Philly is probably going to be like Buffalo in 25 years. The New York families, who knows? But there's no doubt they will stay strong for at least the next 25 years.

Originally Posted By: cookcounty

the only fact is that metropolitan chicago has alot of italians (700k plus) and the chicago area is very crooked so it ain't no telling what's really going on

Wow, what a fact.

Watch out Robert Mueller, you're seat is at stake.

Im sure italians appreciate that astute observation of their community. lol

He's got it backwards. The fact that there's a ton of Italians but very few Italian gangsters just shows that it's a fading way of life.

I actually think the New York families will always be around, but they will (probably sometime after 2050) mutate into something unrecognizable.

a constant stream of rats ain't unrecognizable enough?

bosses ratting on their capo's and vice versa seems a little odd

the 5 families don't have a monopoly on crime in new york anymore

Whatever is happening in Chicago, I think its a shame that things have been so quiet. As demented as it sounds, it sure was nice to hear a story pop up once or twice a year in the paper about mob activity and finding a body in the trunk of a car. That is gone now. As much as some people will deny it, I think the Family Secrets case really put the mob down for the count.

There has to be mob activity still going on in Chicago, its such a huge city. But where the fuck is it?

My guess the money they are making isn't even located in the states. Its gotta be coming from somewhere else.

Someone said the Aruba Casino. I wouldn't doubt that.

If in fact there is activity still going on in the city, my guess would be that Chinatown would be still kicking up some money to the Outfit for protection.

There's still plenty of activity in Chicago. Family secrets hurt Chicago but not as much as the media says. Jimmy Marcello was a huge loss for Chicago

Hi Nicky, are you from Chicago? You guys sure have a great city there. White Sox or Cubs?

I get to Chicago a couple times a year. I always try to get there during the summer and take a ride down the Chicago river.

the "chicago" outfit operates in towns that ain't chicago

they operate in the suburbs around chicago and rural areas of illinois

Yes i am! And I'm a sox fan!

Rural areas of Illinois?

The big press cases like "Family Secrets" are few and far between. But there have been plenty of less known cases involving the Chicago mob over the past decade. Stuff that may go unnoticed by many if they're not really looking. There was the Anthony Centracchio bust, the Dote bookmaking bust, and the Handhart burglary ring bust in 2000. The Carusos and Joey Lombardo's kid were booted from the Laborers Union in 2001. There was also the embezzlement case out of the Cicero that year. The bingo skimming case in 2002. The Crazy Horse Too bust in 2003. The Hired Truck scandal in 2004. Family Secrets in 2005. The Rockford bookmaking bust in 2006. The Sarno bust in 2009, as well as 2 big video poker raids. Rudy Fratto was indicted in 2009 and 2010.

Michael Posner, who has Outfit ties that go way back, operates the Excelsior casino (formerly the Grand Hotel Casino) in the Holiday Inn Resort in Aruba.



I agree about the suburbs of Chicago but the Outfit's presence doesn't seem to extend beyond Cook County for the most part anymore.

how do you know where they conduct business at?

There has to be some activity in Lake, Will and DuPage Counties.

By looking at where the Outfit cases have originated from for over a decade now.

in other words you don't know which towns are mobbed up

There are no longer any towns in chicago or the surrounding suburbs that are "Mobbed Up". Stop acting like a fanboy. Yes there is still an orginized crime family in Chicago but it's nowhere near as active as the New York famliles. BTW i live in Schiller Park so don't use your "I live here and see it everyday arguement.

Lake County still has a presence in the forms of gambeling and money-lending but nothing that jumps out in front of your face.

are you this guys(ivyleague) lawyer or fanboy?

so melrose park ain't mobbed up? elmwood park? stone park? cicero?

larry dominick got elected again in cicero because the mexicans that live in cicero wanted him to be their town president?

so there ain't a whole host of south suburbs that have activity?

there has always been more mob activity in new york because there are 5 different families in new york so that point is pretty mute

He forgot Bridgeport Cook county.

CookCounty,

What cities do you think are the most mobbed up today? Were most mobbed up in the 70's-80's?

Just interested in your opinion. Thanks.

Maybe this will help you out PP. From the Sun Times.........

August 1970: Mob loan shark Michael “Hambone” Albergo is killed at what was then a warehouse at 3300 S. Shields. Now it is a parking lot at U.S. Cellular Field. Outfit members were worried Albergo might implicate them after he was subpoenaed to testify on mob loan-sharking activity. In an unsuccessful attempt to find his body, authorities excavated the area in 2003 after receiving a tip he was buried there.

June 24, 1976: Paul Haggerty is strangled and his throat is slit in a garage in the 2800 block of South Lowe. His body was found — after he had been missing for a week — in the trunk of a car that was towed to the police auto pound. He had been bound, gagged, blindfolded and stuffed into a plastic bag.

March 15, 1977: The murdered and decomposing body of Henry Cosentino was found bound and gagged in an abandoned car in a police auto pound in the 4600 block of West Division. His head was resting on a box of hamburger patties. He had been missing since Jan. 24, 1977.
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Jan. 16, 1978:John Mendell, who allegedly led the burglary crew that robbed the River Forest home of outfit leader Anthony “Big Tuna” Accardo, is strangled and his throat is cut in the same garage in the 2800 block of South Lowe where Haggerty was murdered. Mendell’s body, found in the trunk of an Oldsmobile, showed signs of torture.

Jan. 31, 1978: Vincent Moretti and Donald Renno are murdered in a Cicero restaurant.Both were suspected of being involved in the burglary of Accardo’s home. They were found badly beaten with their throats cut in the back of a Cadillac.

July 2, 1980: Mob enforcer William Dauber and his wife, Charlotte, are gunned down during a high-speed car chase in rural Will County because Dauber was cooperating with authorities.

Dec. 30, 1980: Mobster William “Butch” Petrocelli is brutally murdered at an empty building near 14th and Laramie, his face mutilated with a blow torch.

June 24, 1981: Trucking executive Michael Cagnoni dies when a bomb planted in his Mercedes explodes on the Hinsdale on-ramp to Interstate 294. He ran afoul of the mob and knew it. He had hired a bodyguard, carried a gun and wore a bulletproof vest for a while.

July 23, 1983: Bar owner Richard Ortiz and his friend Arthur Morawski are shot in Cicero. Ortiz is killed because the mob believed he was dealing drugs and had committed an unapproved murder. Morawski was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The gunman reportedly fired eight 12-gauge shotgun rounds into the driver’s side of Ortiz’s parked 1983 Mercury

Sept. 14, 1986: Hit man John “Big John” Fecarotta is gunned down outside a bingo hall on Belmont.

So if you look at those notes, the most mobbed up areas especially the 70's and 80's was Bridgeport and Cicero. Remember the 26th street crew which was the most violent crew back then had their clubhouse located there off 26th street. That location does not exist anymore. The social club has now moved a few blocks away off of 31st street.

From what I have read, its basically a huge country club for the older members to enjoy the last years of their life in peace. When I googled a pic of the place this is what I came across....

at this point in time, i wonder if there isn't more activity in tampa/south florida than in chicago.

That's a good point Cook County considering that an Italian beat a Mexican for mayor in a town that's over 95% mexican

There is no town mobbed up the way Cicero used to be, and he won cause he had the most votes not because The Outfit pulled some stings, your stero-typeing Italin American enclaves as mob towns and it's a bit offending. Your hoping for something that is not there, sure some police look the other way for some video gambeling but to say it's mobbed up is an overstatment, and there have been cases in the last decade that have really wiped alot of the political power the fella's used to have, i mean Palatine you to be really lax with some of the fella's but it's not a mob town, Marco bit a Palatine police officers ear off after been pulled for driving druck and walked away scott free but that was years ago it's not what it used to be and never will be again so i didn't mean to offend you but it's a fantasy.

I suppose it depends on how one defines "mobbed up." When you look at the cases, there's certain areas of Chicago and it's suburbs that pop up more than others. So they obviously have more of a mob presence. But getting back to the original point, when you look at the Outfit cases going back over a decade, they're all in Chicago and it's suburbs with few very exceptions.

What is for lunch tomorrow at ONIAC?

Corned Beef and Cabbage with a side of roasted potatos.LOL

Good post. Thanks.

cicero is still a mobbed up town and probably always will be

somebody pulled some strings to get larry dominick elected and history has shown us for damn near a hundred years who pulls strings in cicero

not too mention that melrose park is cicero's neighbor

there are also towns in the southsuburbs that have a mob influence

and those towns have never been mentioned in any indictment

Notice that I never disagreed about the suburbs. I question your post mentioning rural areas.

the fuck do u think rockford is?