Organized crime and Street gangs

A lot of street gangs nowadays are much more powerful and entrenched than 20 or 30 years ago, and many of the traditional organized crime families are much weaker and less influential than in years past. So I got to thinking: is there some sort of 'mutual respect' type of thing that exists between certain large street gangs and traditional organized crime families, whereby each group respects the influence/power of the other group enough to prevent clashes or 'turf' problems?

You'd think that at some point, in certain cities or neighborhoods, members of various street gangs and La Cosa Nostra families might cross paths or be engaged in certain rackets that might place them at odds against each other? Whether it be drug dealing, grand theft, prostitution, etc., the potential for conflicts between two separate criminal entities over certain rackets is all but guaranteed.

I started thinking about this last week when I read that book by Crips co-founder Tookie Williams. He wrote about a time when he and some fellow crips were planning on entering into a 'deal' with some East coast mobsters out here in LA. Supposedly, Tookie and his cohorts were going to be used as muscle to help the East coast wiseguys pull of some robbery. In the end, the deal fell through and the police busted the meeting when one of the purported wiseguys turned out to be with law enforcement (or working with law enforcement).

But what got me thinking was, if a mafia family would consider using an established street gang as muscle, that would mean the mobsters don't have enough muscle on their own and have to turn to another criminal group that has more muscle. And if that's the case, would that mean the street gang was as formidable and as dangerous as the mob family? Perhaps more so?

Tookie wrote in his book that he wasn't all that concerned with dealing with mobsters, since he felt that mobsters were flesh and blood like anyone else, and that they could bleed just like anyone else.

Granted, much of what Tookie wrote in his book may be fabricated or aggrandized, but it's still food for thought.

The mob is always portrayed in movies as the top dog in the criminal world, and of course it's glamorized like no other group. But I've often wondered what would happen if, let's say, a Crip set or even a Latin Kings set decided to encroach on an established LCN neighborhood or business? Or, if an LCN family decided to rob or cheat a shot caller in one of the above mentioned gangs?
At some point it would seem logical that a confrontation would come down to numbers and/or firepower.

First off most would agree on the drug game the street gangs have that area locked down almost completley except for the mob selling to middle class and upper middle class people who would't go to a gang neighborhood to get their fix.

Second the mutual respect between street gangs and the mob stems from the mob kinda being considered OGs by street gangs who have the glamorized idea of mobsters from the movies. What allows for the respect is that gangs and the mafia are in two different worlds criminally and personally. The gangs have their turf usually in lower income areas where the mafia is not present and doesn't have operations and the mob has their territory,operations and hangouts in more middle and upper class neighborhoods where the street gangs are not present so they never really interact except for in prisons so the idea of a war between gangs and the mob is very unlikely. Also on another note the mob in the U.S doesn't have the large heroin pipelines anymore like in the past so the drug dealing that they do is on a small scale basically the gangs control the drug trade and the mob is into gambling,loansharking,construction,unions and some financial schemes which the gangs are not into, so basically the interaction between the two organizations is on a small scale and they never really step on each others toes because their rackets hardly ever cross paths

Also on your other point both organizations are dangerous but the gangs are defintley more crazy with drive by shootings and killing women and children

It depends on location, activities, and which street gang/family interactions. Alot of street gang vs LCN opinions and banter. They work together just like you mention with tookie ( if it's true never heard of it), the east coast bloods worked with lucchese family in contraband smuggling, Latin kings too. Its mostly will hardly ever be a conflict between them because of money. IF there was a conflict, it depends on the situation.

is this like a bonanno vs.bloods thread.lol.

of coarse they cross paths all the time. i know plenty of crips that take numbers.lol.

Thanks for the response. That was an interesting read. Yeah, I realize that most of the time the mob and street gangs operate in different criminal realms. I was just thinking of isolated incidents whereby they might cross paths and potentially war with one another.
As long as the the mob (LCN) has been around, and as much as it has been glamorized over the years, I can't see how LCN members would want to willingly share the streets with anyone, especially newer up-start street gangs. But I guess it just boils down to time, place, location, etc.

THanks for the response. Yeah, I see what you mean. I guess the bottom line is money and what is, ultimately, good for business. I know war is never a good thing.

Street gangs and mobsters hardly interact on the streets. On a street level both groups don't tend to stray far from their respective strongholds. There probably are connections between some soldiers and gang members here and there. The mafia arent the drug suppliers they once were and no longer have any real power in any of the state prisons in their own city where the street gangs seem to thrive so theres no real reason for them to work together or even come across each other. The luchesse bloods thing was basically one made guy trying to make a buck, but it was an interesting case because they needed the bloods help in trying to stop another blood from extorting an associate. Someone posted the wire tap transcripts on here once but i cant find them.

Even sets within a street gang ( Crips, Bloods, Gangster Disciples, Latin Kingz, Mara Salvatrucha, Asian Boyz,...) can differ greatly. A lot of sets have really very little saying in organized crime and mostly focus on small robberies, petty drug sales,... Street gangs nationwide have about 50,000 members and the disorganized sets are definitely the (large) majority. A lot of street gang members are young kids and even most of these people neither have the brains nor the willingness to think to make a good career in organized crime.
But within all of these gangs there are sets, largely consisting of the adult members, that have outgrown the status of petty criminals and become organized crime firms. They are a minority, but still a large enough minority to be counted as a force to be reckoned with. And in my honest opinion there isn't really much of a difference between the soldiers of an Italian, Russian, Albanian,...mafia and the soldiers of an organized Black, Hispanic, Southeast Asian or White Trash street gang.

there is a big differences, a total different mentality
mafia tends to hide itself, most of gangs have tattoos or bandanas to identify themselves

Recent gang bust in long beach california involving the crips and their identity theft scheme.

Major Police Gang Operation Centers On Identity Theft Ring


Posted: Thursday, December 6, 2012 5:35 pm
By Jonathan Van Dyke
A continued gang enforcement effort netted 11 arrests today (Thursday), mostly associated with a large-scale identity theft fraud ring.
In June of this year — as part of an ongoing investigation spanning back to November 2009 — the Long Beach Police Department conducted a large arrest operation against the Baby Insane Crip gang in regards to a murder and multiple shootings.
“Part of the evidence during the investigation revealed that members of the gang, as well as some of their family members and associates, were involved in a large-scale fraud ring,” Chief Jim McDonnell said, noting his detectives continued to work on the case since then.
Today’s (Thursday’s) operation involved 200 officers, detectives and agents from local law enforcement, the U.S. Secret Service, the United State Postal Inspection Service and the IRS. There were 32 search warrants issued for locations in Long Beach, Huntington Beach, Harbor City, Van Nuys, Carson, Inglewood, Gardenia, Anaheim, Cerritos and Los Angeles.
“Investigators learned that the suspects were stealing personal identifying information to commit various financial crimes, including the filing of fraudulent tax returns,” McDonnell said.
There were 11 people arrested, ages 21-48, for charges of identity theft (5), having an outstanding warrant (3), being an ex-felon in possession of a firearm (2) and being in possession of stolen property and a stolen vehicle.
Officials said they have determined that tens of thousands of dollars have been lost by the federal government and several hundred thousand dollars from individuals due to attempted fraud — totaling about $1 million.
During the operation, there were eight children taken into protective custody. Officers and agents confiscated several thousand dollars in cash and tens of thousands of dollars in property including 10 guns (including an assault rifle and shotgun), dozens of major electronics (large plasma televisions, stereo equipment) and cars (including a $50,000 boat and trailer).
“It’s amazing how the ill gotten gains have been spent,” McDonnell said.
According to officials, often the suspects would obtain a name, social security number and date of birth through a variety of sources. Then the suspect would apply online for tax returns, send them through the USPS, and funnel that return through a casino, ATM or family member.
The IRS looks out for fraud, officials said, but they generally process the first tax return that comes in, which can be vulnerable to this type of fraud.
“Once considered a white collar crime, identity fraud along with other financial crimes are now becoming common practice among street gangs,” said Adrian Gonzalez, assistant inspector in charge of the United States Postal Inspection Service, Los Angeles Division.
McDonnell also said there were lessons to be learned from the operation for avoiding the pitfalls of identity theft.
“We’d like this operation to serve as another strong message to the gangs in the city of Long Beach and throughout the region, that we will not stand for the destruction that is brought to our communities, and we will do everything in our power to stop the violence and corruption that is being inflicted on our society,” he said. “Be extremely cautious whenever you are asked to give personal information, whether through computer, over the phone or in person. Closely monitor your bank accounts to make sure your information has not been compromised.”
Officials also lauded each other’s agencies for their ability to work together in order to perform such a large-scale operation.
“The fact that criminals are not bound by city limits or state lines, coupled with today’s tiny budgets and limited resources, only makes it more important that we work together,” Gonzalez said.

gangs move from drugs to id theft
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/05/14/cbs4-investigates-gangs-move-from-drugs-to-id-theft/

The large majority of young, brazen gang members indeed identify themselves using tattoos and bandanas. That's also the common view of a gang member. But like I said, these gangs also have some big players involved who are more secretive and often dress more smart. An organized, major player within a street or prison gang and a mafia soldier...in terms of power there isn't really much difference at all.
The flashy, dressed like a dapper don mafia member is also a common misconception.

True. There are certain street gangs that keep a low-profile as a group and most prison gang members blend in their communities.

BUt I do know that I'd much rather live next door to a John Gotti than a Tookie Williams!

ah yes that's right
the major players of a street gang can be compared with mafia soldiers in term of power
but the mafia bosses and capos are more powerful than the street gang bosses

What if we compare a boss of a declining Cosa Nostra family like Buffalo or New Orleans and the boss of a powerful street gang like the Mexican Mafia or Latin Kings? Who would win?

i'm talking about viable families
i don't think new orleans and buffalo families are still even active
but i think that even a mafia boss from chicago or boston is more powerful than anyone single street gang boss
don't forget than being a boss in the mafia it means also being linked with new york and other bosses and probably hae international contacts, its the same organization
i don't think there is a street gang big as lcn in the states

Didn't Gotti bump off one of his neighbors?

I'd rather live next door to Tookie, I like the smell of fried chicken and hip-hop beats first thing in the morning.

Sleep is for losers!

You are correct. Gotti murdered a man who accidentally ran over his son. His name was John Favara. To this day his body has never been found. Look it up.

bloods or crips?no. 'l.kings,mara salvatruta?mexicans are the new 'race' of gangsters.[or hispanics in general,to be politically correct.

you think the 'average' madeguy could hold his own against the 'average' latin king 'soldier'?

the difference is the ability to adapt,change,and diversify. have a set of rules that are followed 'nation-wide', without a leader.'cosa nostra' has been around longer than any other 'organizations'.mexican and black crime has been going on since jesus.but how old are the 'cartels'? eventually they will be defeated or they will evolve. new gangs come and go but how many can stick around for more than a hundred years?do the bloods and crips solve their problems by just 'sitting down'?they 'shoot it out' in the streets. look at all the irish and polish and jewish gangs that were around before and after prohibition.coss nostra can adapt.

can you see the cartels rigging teamster elections if drugs are legalized?lol.

Are far as power goes,it depends on your definition. Ms-13 have leaders in the states and el Salvador that networks and coordinates some of their activities.

In reality, there is not one scintilla of evidence that John Gotti did anything to John Favara. Do I believe that Gotti was responsible? Probably. But nothing has ever been proven. The same goes for the Castellano/Billotti murders -- no evidence whatsoever linking Gotti to the crime. But again, I think he was probably behind them.

Just food for thought.

"Mexicans are the new 'race' of gangsters" That's incorrect. Mexican gangsters been around since the wild wild west days. I think they were called Cholos. Average made guy vs average latin king solder: seems equal to me in my opinion. There are a few l.a mexican gangs such as white fence that been active since the prohibition era. Why are the Crips/Bloods are so frequently used? They like the posterboy of gangs. LOL. Drug Cartels are already infiltrating businesses but the teamster thing, maybe. In Mexico only of course.

when it comes to money maybe.most made guys arent shooters.

Infiltrating teamster, labor racketeering and white collar crime isn't really a measure of power on the streets and since this threads about comparing them to street gangs this is an important point.If you look at the street activities of todays families i.e gambling, loansharking, robbery, drug dealing, prostitution you'll see that its only really a small number of places where they have a heavy street presence. Street gangs are very turf orientated but even they are moving out to suburban areas to distribute drugs and commit other crimes and their willingness to use violence anywhere they are is important factor. Also you take into account the mobs diminished capacity within prison politics and criminal activity inside as well. Capos and bosses have power but its not the kind of power they can weild everywhere they go.

it's this kind of business that make organized crime more powerful
being more violent on the streets it doesn't mean being more powerful, you can kills but if you have not politics and important business links you are just a low-level gang

Good points! A case in point is Chicago. There was a time when the Outfit was the absolute top dog on the streets. But look at them now? I can't see the outfit going to war with any street gang in Chicago. During Capone's time and later during Giancana and possibly Accardo, I don't thnk there was any doubt as to who basically ran the streets in Chicago. But now? It's crazy how things changed.
But yes, a mob boss will wield power in their local area and over his own family, but how far-reaching is that power? And, of course, it goes the other way as well. A shot caller in a large gang is a big guy in his turf......but in other areas.

The Outfit isn't interested in going to war with anyone, especially not this day and age when they are all elderly and dwindling in numbers. It goes back to the same principle the mob has always had: making money. DiFronzo, Andriacchi, and D'Amico aren't interested in bumping shoulders with any gang members because it brings unwanted attention and it's "bad for business"

My guess today is that DiFronzo and co. own legit businesses and have small Union infiltration (some pull within the Teamsters to protect gambling rackets), and have a few local politicians in their pocket. They wield power within their own right and areas. But in terms of "running streets" they don't control anything other gangs say or do at all.

That's one thing with the Sopranos that made me laugh, Moltasonti kicking that black dude and fucking him up like he was the Lord Mayor's show out on the street.

Then he goes into the ghetto fried chicken joint which presumably was in Newark somewhere. "Whose welfare cheque does I gots cash?" One white guy says that in a packed chicken joint full of blacks. In Newark you would be jumped in two seconds flat no matter who the fuck you were you walked into a joint like that late at night and gave it that bullshit.

The mob control the streets in Newark? These gangs don't even know who's smoking each other half the time and half the time don't even care.

None of that "I know a rich fat Italian guy who looks tough smokin Cuban cigars" shit is gonna fly with these guys, they grew up on the streets, not some picket fence suburban house in Staten Island or North Jersey. Threats of violence don't bother street guys because they live with it each and every day. I doubt some of these brats these days have been in so much as a proper fist fight other than sucker punching some luckless dude who does move in them circles and actually does fear who that guy's connections may be.

That clash where the tubby guy Bobby Baccalier was humilated by those young punks and robbed by those young hoods is the only thing that would happen when these worlds collide. That was actually realistic. That's what happens when rich overweight Italian guys go to war with poor deprived black kids who have no fear of death cos they have such shitty lives. Some pecker nosed douche reading the riot act? Get the fug outta here

Chinatown crew in Chicago has very powerful contacts with gang leaders, politicians, and pastors on the Southside.

Christopher gets robbed by some puerto rican drug dealers as well in one episode. The sopranos is a tv show so its supposed to make them look powerful due to the fact that they were the main characters.

Gotti associate lewis kasman hired a latin king gang member to assault a mob associate in prison once. Junior gotti alledgedly hired the latin kings to kill an informant in a florida prison aswell.

So, in your opinion, La Cosa Nostra (mafia) is like a boy scout group that local Newark or New York street thugs can simply pick on and abuse?

I understand that, but with so few members, how does the Outfit stay in power? What's stopping one of the large street gangs like the Latin Kings or Gangster Disciples from encroaching on some of the Outfits rackets or areas? I'm sure some of the "elder" members of some of these gangs are more business oriented and are eyeing some of the same types of activities that the Outfit might be involved in.
I realize that most gangs and most LCN families operate in different spheres, but with increased law enforcement crackdowns and tremendous competition to make a buck, you'd think many of these groups would start to enter into each other's areas as the criminal landscape changes.

If they weren't so busy croaking each other and getting pinched and thrown in the can every other week sure what would stop them? You tell me?

If they could breeze into upsale neighborhoods and trash everything in sight without the Cops showing up then I guess yeah what I'm saying is they could pretty much do as they pleased if they had the smarts to stop slinging on their own corners and decided to lose the hood mentality and venture out into the big wide world.

That's war, which would never happen of course.

All I'm really saying is that mob guys don't carry no prestige to most of these street guys because they live in a world where the only thing that means anything is how tough you are in the moment, how much you are willing t throw down and not give a fuck in these kinds of situations. The guys that have that mentality are for the most part black and Spanish these days. What's even a tough Italian blue collar kinda guy from Brooklyn or the Bronx gonna do? Smoke one, two, then what?

Buy the rest of the street guys off? And still face the possibility of getting whacked by one of the kid's long lost demented puss ridden cousins one day coming out of a car lot?

Only working relationship mob guys could have is with the cabbage. This can always buy you lots of friends. But they ain't on the streets busing heads. And they ain't showing up at all hours of the night outside ghetto fried chicken joints in their Cadillacs shuffling up to the front of the queue like Archie Bunker giving his state of the union address.

You know how quickly street guys get dead? One wrong word to one of these guys in a park or a club and they will throw down with you and you better be ready. They will stick you in no time at all.

Personally I can't stand all that "pssss, wassap pappy" bullshit but that's the way it is on the streets in 2012 the odd exception here and there aside.

gangs have already moved out to the suburbs, engage in money laundering and increasingly become involved with more sophisticated crimes such as fraud.
street gangs target the rich in id theft ring
gangs move to the suburbs
the older mobsters in their 80s don't want any trouble, they have to think whether its worth it and also about he wants to live day to day in new york with a group of young reckless gangbangers looking to kill him, whos got more to lose in that situation? not the gang bangers.

Think of Chicago street organizations like fraternities; Despite there large numbers, not all of them are engage in criminal activities. So subtract that portion of the membership away, you have your young generation of members that are the ones constantly in headline news the live fast, die young type, they aren't concern with racketeering just quick money to blow away. Subtract them away. That lives the mild, mature and old members that will be involved in racketeering but not to the extent such as a takeover just business partners with organized crime because they see eye to eye. Old/ Mild members are the mobsters type and younger are the bangers.

You raise a lot of interesting points, and I can't say that I disagree with everything you write. I enjoy reading your posts.

It's sort of perverse how the criminal world has morphed over the years. It wasn't long ago that there were more clearly defined hierarchies within the underworld, with most of the traditional organized crime families being at the top of the food chain. But those delineations and hierarchies are not so well-defined and, in actuality, quite different from just a short time ago.

I can't say that I actually feel sorry for traditional organized crime families that their fortunes and powers have declined, but it seemed as if the average citizen was safer when LCN was controlling a certain area rather than one of these upstart, class of 2012 gangs. The whole value thing, whereby most hardcore LCN families don't engage in simple violence just for the sake of it.

But still, I can't see how a guy, for instance, like John Gotti (when he was boss) would tolerate any type of abuse or injury from one of these upstart criminals without striking back in a way that would send a clear message. But who knows. Maybe if Gotti stopped in at a waffle house and was robbed and beaten by a group of thugs, maybe he would just walk out with his tail between his legs and that would be the end of it! LOL.......Who the heck knows!

100% correct

Back in the day the wiseguys had something to offer other criminals, They supplied the heroin they had alot of officials in their pockets and they had a massive street presence in the inner city to, and they had a significant amount of power in the prisons to. Today they dont have hardly any of that.

Black p. Stones push the Chicago Outfit out of the street level protection racket back in 1971. Even after a sit-down with the blackstone chief Jeff Fort, he didn't backed down and had two of the outfit associates killed.

thats interesting. is there an article or something with that story in, can you post it up. i didn't know that fort had any dealings with them.

Sure. My source is the book African-American Organized Crime:A Social History pg 201-202.

He should have killed Accardo. Really, that man was mentally ill (at least partially): I understand he was angry of being robbed, but those kind of tortures he ordered then are just revolting

Thanks but i aint got the book and theres no excerpt either online. i did find this though on how the gangs took over activities.

The increasing number of black youth would form new gangs replacing their 1940s, more civil older brothers. Most formed alá Thrasher, but the two largest, the Vice Lords and Blackstone Rangers, were founded in St. Charles, the city’s juvenile prison. Gangs were proliferating in black communities that had few legitimate jobs, and were cut out of both Policy and drugs, which were still dominated by the Outfit. One Vice Lord leader said the gang took its name from wanting to take the job of “lords of vice” from whites. Interviews with both Vice Lords and Rangers who were active in the 1960s describe both violence against Italian heroin runners and negotiated deals with the Outfit for the black gangs to take over distribution of heroin. The decimation of the black Policy Kings left a void in adult leadership for the youth gangs, who were left to find their own way. The founding of multi-neighborhood “super-gangs” is testimony both to the lack of existing black leadership and the daring, innovation of the youthful gangs.
While the Outfit set up Chicago’s heroin markets through the infamous “French Connection” in Marseilles (McCoy 1972), heroin was never meant as a drug for Italians. “Not in our neighborhood” said Giancana. “but shines (African Americans) want it and somebody’s gotta supply it. It may as well be us.” (Giancana and Giancana 1992. p. 246). The long-term concentration of “opium dens” and cocaine in the Black Belt (Spillane 1998) also formed a ready-made retail outlet for the new drug, heroin and their Italian suppliers. But by the end of the 1950s, the growing strength of the black gangs meant that retail could no longer be controlled by Italians, so a deal was struck. One Outfit leader told me that the “blacks were rough” and it made sense to withdraw from retail, while controlling the supply of heroin. It was just “good business” he said.
Black gangs were taking over street level illicit enterprises in their community. On the southside, the Blackstone Rangers painted “Stones Run It” all over walls, an explicit challenge to police and the Outfit. “There will be no killing,” Stones leader Jeff Fort told police on camera, “without killing in return.” The black community, long docile and under control of the machine, was rising up and the youth were especially angry. The civil rights movement challenged the city, but also posed an ethical challenge to the gangs as black people. Selling drugs made money, which was in short supply. But it also meant harm and death to the black community.

lol.am i the only one who thinks this debate is hilarious?

Apples & Oranges.

'apples and bowling balls'.hahaha.

Yeah, and who can forget Papa Gotti enlisting the help of the AB. Crazy stuff. And those AB guys are psychos.

I agree, I guess no mafia organization is able to protect its members from some maniacs from the ghetto who don't give a shit about anything, but in some other episodes of the Sopranos it was made clear that the NJ mafia doesn't control the streets and is not feared in some areas: Chris getting robbed, black gangsters attacking Bobby, Tony having to use some black kids to clean that building (during the HUD scam), and you didn't get the feeling that the Russian mob fears the Italians, same goes for those Hispanic guys in Florida in 6th season, even those bikers shot back.

What didn't seem realistic to me was the way they made the Colombians look like an easy target. I don't believe that a small mafia family would nowadays have the balls to steal huge ammounts of money from the Colombians, but in Sopranos, it happened twice. Even in Roy DeMeo's times the Gambino family didn't want to risk problems with them after Rosenberg pissed them off.