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Luciano vs. Genovese

Posted By: Toodoped

Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/14/12 08:02 AM

I know you guys heard about the beef between Luciano and Genovese,Genovese ratting to the FBI about Luciano been in Cuba and the reason always was because Vito wanted to be the top boss.There was also a fight between Charly and Vito in Cuba on a meeting were Luciano punched Vito and broke a rib.After that Luciano,Lansky,Gambino alliance set up Vito at the Apalachin meeting and after that they set him up with some low level drug dealer and he went to jail.My question is this...since Vito had a connection with the FBI do you think that the Valachi situation was also a set up orchastrated by Vito and the FBI,so Vito made his revenge against the mob?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/14/12 04:20 PM

We have to go with what is known, and that gets pretty murky:

What's known is that, after Luciano went to prison for double-digits in 1936, he appointed Genovese as acting Don. But Genovese was forced to flee to Italy a year later, one step ahead of a murder rap. Frank Costello became acting Don, and cemented his role as "the Prime Minister of the Underworld." Genovese wanted to resume his role as Don when he was deported from Italy to the US, but Costello was too powerful.

Apparently Luciano's presence in Cuba following his deportation from the US was ratted out. Genovese generally gets the rap, but there's no doubt that Luciano wanted to resume his place as Numero Uno in NYC. So, any of the Dons at that Havana meeting had a built-in incentive to rat out Luciano's presence.

Most historians agree that the Apalachin disaster was the work of alert cops who were suspicious of the large number of cars in Joe Barbara's parking lot. Some have said that the cops were sore at Barbara for not paying them off. Nobody has said Genovese set it up--he was one of the victims. He was definitely set up for the drug bust in 1959.

I'm not sure what you mean by Genovese's FBI connection. And, there's no reason to believe that the Valachi thing happened for any other reason than a case of mistaken identity.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/14/12 04:44 PM

They could make a "seconds from disaster" episode for the American Mafia.

Luciano is imprisoned --> Genovese succeeds him --> Genovese flees to Italy --> Costello takes his place --> Luciano is ratted out by Genovese and is forced out of Cuba --> Genovese forces Costello into retirement --> Genovese sets up the Apalachin meeting in relation to earlier events --> Barbara neglects paying off cops --> Apalachin is raided & American Mafia becomes public --> Luciano & Costello take revenge and set up Genovese for a drugs bust along with Valachi and they are sent to prison --> Genovese tries to take out Valachi in prison but fails --> Valachi becomes a government witness --> Valachi hearings.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/14/12 06:22 PM

The thing is that i know about the facts that Genovese was the victim at the Apalachin meeting,you can read about it in some books or watch about it on doc's,some mob historians say that it was a set up made by Luciano,lansky and others and yes the cops saw them and they werent on the pay roll,who knows maybe Barbara was on it too,but Luciano just wated for the right moment and that was the meeting.Genovese ratting to the fbi?maybe who knows?!maybe its only a rumor,bout Valachi....he seems like an "Oswald" guy to me,some1 that you can manipulate with,easy,a lil bit retarded...thats just my opinion
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/14/12 07:01 PM

Do you think Genovese was framed about the drug deal or did he really do it? Or was he convicted for what he really did do, but on framed evidence? I understand he deserved to go to jail anyway, with all the corpses he left behind, but was the evidence in this particular case a complete frame-up, a frame-up on a crime that was really committed or was it a rightful conviction? What do you think?
Posted By: Camarel

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/14/12 07:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Dwalin2011
Do you think Genovese was framed about the drug deal or did he really do it? Or was he convicted for what he really did do, but on framed evidence? I understand he deserved to go to jail anyway, with all the corpses he left behind, but was the evidence in this particular case a complete frame-up, a frame-up on a crime that was really committed or was it a rightful conviction? What do you think?


I think it could've been either the thing i don't get is why did they not just kill him?
Posted By: Lilo

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/14/12 10:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Camarel

I think it could've been either the thing i don't get is why did they not just kill him?


Good question. I don't think there is a definitive answer.
My take is that the only person that Luciano and Costello would have trusted 100% to handle that job (Anastasia) was already dead. There had already been a number of murders and attempted murders so why bring more heat on the entire organization by trying to kill Genovese.

But I think the biggest reason is that they knew that they could hurt Genovese more by putting him in prison for the rest of his life.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/15/12 06:31 AM

To answer Dwalin2011's question...Genovese was deep in the drug business so you can say that it was a rightful conviction,but as i sad the other mobsters were waiting the right moment,cuz as sad Anastasia was a big problem for Vito but since he was iced,no1 could do any harm to Vito,he was a powerful enforcer so the only way was to frame him and go to jail for the rest of his life.Yes it was a frame up,but since Vito's ass was dirty and greedy,so you can say that it was an easy frame up.
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/15/12 06:51 AM

It's interesting that the biggest mafia bosses often go to jail on frame-up charges:
Vito Cascio Ferro was convicted for the only murder he didn't commit, that really angered him when he was convicted.
Vito Genovese: framed on that drug deal.
Lucky Luciano: also probably framed, at least he was involved with prostitution less directly than with drugs, murder, extortion etc.
Carmine Tramunti: not really a big boss, but still a member of the commission: framed on drug charges, at least I read he was.
The whole leadership of the Rochester family went away in the 70s on framed evidence (but for a murder they really committed)
Toto' Riina: this one wasn't really framed, but seeing that the prosecution tries to put him in every single murder committed in Italy (an informant even accused him of ordering the shooting of the Pope) I think he also had his share of frame-ups.
I also read somewhere that some years ago there was a representation (don't remember where) of Al Capone's trial on tax evasion and using the modern laws it ended up in an acquittal lol

It's funny to think how angry these scumbags were when put away on framed-up charges. Never being caught for what they did, and ending up in jail for what they didn't do - the only bigger humiliation I can think for a mafioso is what Mario Puzo did to Salvatore Maranzano - had him killed by a character that didn't even exist in real life.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/15/12 07:05 AM

That's true,very true actualy.In the old days,i mean before the RICO laws or FBI bugs,the law men had to do everything just to get the bad guys,but if they wanted to frame some1 they needed an info from the inside,in many cases the rivals are the ones that are giving the information because they want the top position,as the western ppl say "its a dog eat dog world",but thats the only reason why oc can never be destroyed.I mean the fbi is doin deals with other mobster rivals just to get the older guy...i mean it doesnt make sence...In Luciano's case and Vito's case...Luciano framed Vito for drugs and the funny thing is that Charly was THE drug lord world wide,he pumped heroin in the USA like crazy,billions and billions...for me theres no loyalty in the mafia world,you just need to keep your head down and no showing off,but in the old times they belived in leaders and roman empire and bullshit like that,they always wanted the top spot!You want the top spot?!?!?!?Than you get framed one day! cool
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/15/12 07:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped
That's true,very true actualy.In the old days,i mean before the RICO laws or FBI bugs,the law men had to do everything just to get the bad guys,but if they wanted to frame some1 they needed an info from the inside,in many cases the rivals are the ones that are giving the information because they want the top position,as the western ppl say "its a dog eat dog world",but thats the only reason why oc can never be destroyed.I mean the fbi is doin deals with other mobster rivals just to get the older guy...i mean it doesnt make sence...In Luciano's case and Vito's case...Luciano framed Vito for drugs and the funny thing is that Charly was THE drug lord world wide,he pumped heroin in the USA like crazy,billions and billions...for me theres no loyalty in the mafia world,you just need to keep your head down and no showing off,but in the old times they belived in leaders and roman empire and bullshit like that,they always wanted the top spot!You want the top spot?!?!?!?Than you get framed one day! cool


I forgot about the frame-up of Tameleo and others in Providence on the Deegan murder charges with Barboza's help, just remembered that after you said how the law enforcement makes deal with gangsters to put away other gangsters. By the way, the newspapers represented them like martyrs, but weren't they still mafia associates who deserved to go to jail for other crimes? Don't know about Salvati, I think he just owned money to Barboza and the scumbag took revenge by framing him, but Tameleo! He was PATRIARCA'S UNDERBOSS! He surely had committed or ordered his share of murders. And Limone: he may have been innocent of that particular murder, but after being released he becomes the boss of the whole local mafia organization. Some "martyr" he is.
I am not justifying what the corrupt FBI scumbags did, but still it doesn't seem to make any sense when the newspapers say it was the worst case of miscarriage of justice in the history of the USA or something.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/15/12 12:24 PM

Good point there Dwalin2011...i really dont understand the action of the fbi department,maybe some of the mobsters pay them off,some of em dont,maybe somebody forgot to pay em off,maybe its a deal to get the bigger fish.....anyway the FBI are full of shit thats for sure,some of em kill for the mob(louis eppolito's example)
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/15/12 01:18 PM

This is a part from a big article that i saved in my files long time ago and i dont know where it came from and its about the genovese situation....

The late Ralph Salerno, famous NYPD organized crime detective, believed it almost in conceivable that Vito Genovese would deal with someone like Cantellops.

On appeal, the government admitted it had suppressed evidence in the trial. Edward Bennett Williams, one of the best criminal lawyers practising at this time, argued brilliantly for Genovese. When he was congratulated him on his performance, he said, ‘Thanks, but there's not a chance. They won't let Genovese out. They'll call it harmless error.’ Which they did, and generally do, when they know the error is harmful in Mafia cases.

Rumours have long existed that Cantellops had been approached by a cartel of mobsters anxious to remove Genovese from the frame, for their own personal reasons.

These four men, according to these underworld rumours, Charley Luciano in Naples, Italy, and Frank Costello, Myer Lansky and Carlo Gambino in America, had put up a $100,000 bribe to induce Nelson to co-operate with the narcotic bureau and help convict Genovese. Costello would obviously have a vested reason in doing this, bearing in mind that he almost certainly knew Genovese was behind the attempt on his life. A rider to the bribe was that it had to include Gigante in the conspiracy so that he would do time as penance for his bungled attempt on Frank. Jimmy ‘Blue Eyes’ Alo, a senior capo in the Genovese family, is alleged to have arranged for an intermediately to travel to Sing Sing prison, and present Cantellops with the deal. It’s cute and cheesy, like a plot out of a Hank Jansen novel. But as a compelling reason upon which to build a hypotheses, about as ephemeral as a butterfly.

And this part is from the same article only its about the Valachi/Genovese situation...

While in New York, the FBN put pressure on him to roll-over and become an informant, telling him that Strollo had gone missing, and was believed murdered on the orders of his best friend and boss, Vito Genovese. The agents also inferred that Joe was next on Genovese’s list of house-cleaning. With these thoughts pressing down on him, Joe was returned to Atlanta.

Here, he became the central character in a bizarre theatre of manipulation, hidden threats and Machiavellian manoeuvres orchestrated by Vito Genovese.

The Don suggested that Joe move into his cell, and share it with the other inmates there, a group of four or five. Genovese kept on at Joe, questioning him about his latest drug conviction, hinting that perhaps he had collaborated with Mauro and Caruso, insinuating that he had not received his cut from these various narcotic transactions and also confirming in an indirect way, that he had been responsible for the death of Strollo.

Vito Agueci was also sent down to Atlanta following his conviction, and began associated closely with inmates Johnny Diouguardi, and Joe DiPalermo, both members of the Luchese family. Valachi began to believe that Agueci was feeding Genovese information through these two men that he was talking to the FBN (which at this time he wasn’t.) Gradually, Joe started to think that Genovese and the other mob inmates were shunning him, isolating him away from the few prisoners he had become close to. One day, DiPalermo offered him a steak sandwich, claiming he had smuggled it out of the prison kitchen. Fearing it was poisoned, Joe threw it in the trash. He stopped using the showers, especially after he was encouraged by Diougardi to do so, fearing the isolation and exposure there, and the possibility of attack.

One night in June, in the cell, Genovese sat talking to him, rambling on about bad apples and how they should be removed; then kissing Joe, for old time’s sake, and asking after the health of his grandchildren, planting seeds, sowing doubts and fear into the mind of a man already on the breaking edge.

In desperation, Joe demanded that the guards incarcerate him in a solitary cell, claiming his life was in danger. This gave him a few days respite, but then he was released, as the prison governor could not be convinced there were grounds for his fears
Joseph Valachi reached his epiphany early in the morning of June 22, 1963. Wandering around the prison grounds, terrified of each and every inmate who passed him, he saw three men moving slowly towards him. There had been construction taking place in the complex, and he grabbed a piece of iron piping as a weapon to defend himself. As Joe DiPalermo, the man he considered his principal tormentor, walked past, he lashed out, striking him in the head. Joe then chased off the other three men, returning to beat DiPalermo to death. Except he killed the wrong man.

and you know the rest of the sotry...
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/15/12 01:26 PM

Interesting article, thanks.
Drugs are always used more than everything else for frame-ups. In Russia it's already become a legend how many "Vory v zakone" ("Thieves in law") were framed on drug charges, mostly for drug possession (not that I am sorry though). I wonder why Dewey chose to make a case against Luciano on prostitution charges, not on drug charges.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/15/12 01:31 PM

Good question,neither do i
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/15/12 04:38 PM

The most likely answer is that he had a slam-dunk conviction on the prostitution rap because he was able to coerce several prostitutes and other witnesses into testifying against Luciano. Much easier than trying to nail him on drugs. Luciano didn't help himself by agreeing to testify.
Posted By: ht2

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/15/12 06:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped

While in New York, the FBN put pressure on him to roll-over and become an informant, telling him that Strollo had gone missing, and was believed murdered on the orders of his best friend and boss, Vito Genovese. The agents also inferred that Joe was next on Genovese’s list of house-cleaning. With these thoughts pressing down on him, Joe was returned to Atlanta.

Interesting article. Genovese must have suspected that Strollo (aka Tony Bender) was brought into the setup by Luciano. Genovese and Bender were best man at each other's weddings and probably his right hand man for many years.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/17/12 04:36 PM

This piece of document will not answer your question regarding the Luciano/Genovese rift. But it´s interesting because it says that Frank Costello was reinstated into the Genovese Family (after being shelved by Genovese) in 1960. Apparently they had a talk and found out that Tony Bender had played them against eachother in order to grab the leading position in the Family.

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=981009
Posted By: BarrettM

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/17/12 04:46 PM

Maybe. It's easy to place the blame on a duplicitous sycophant like Tony Bender. I'll take a look, and thanks. Tommy Eboli probably should have had his job from the start. He wasn't the brightest, but he wasn't so self serving either, and he went by the book. Hell, the whole Genovese Family is so interesting back then, every part of it. There are still things we don't know.

EDIT: Wow, according to this, a cousin of Vito Genovese named Ralph Genovese skimmed some money from the LA Family. Vito advised that he be returned to New York so no harm could be done. He then informed Jack Dragna that his own cousin had been tied to a table and died, slowly. Sawed in half.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/17/12 04:55 PM

Nice document HairyKnuckles thanx.Heres a pice of an article and list of the ppl arrested with Genovese...

On July 7th, 1958, FBN agents arrested Genovese and 53 other defendants and 14 co-conspirators involved in the conspiracy. Of this group, only Genovese and 16 others were actually indicted. Two of them, evaded the law and did not appear for trial. The two who escaped arrest were Carmine Galante and John Ormento. Those detained were charged with conspiracy to import, conceal and sell heroin.

On January 5th 1959, the group went on trial. The charges laid against them, in full, were:

Conspiracy to import and smuggle narcotics into the United States.
To receive, conceal, possess, buy and sell the drugs.
To dilute, mix and adulterate the drugs prior to distribution.
To distribute the drugs.

On April 17th they were all found guilty and sentenced from five to twenty years. Vito Genovese was given fifteen years. He was initially confined in the Atlanta Penitentiary. The rest of the conspirators were sentenced as under:

Vincent Gigante-7 years. Soldier, Genovese family.
Joe Evola-10 years. Capo, Bonanno family.
Carmine Polizanno- 8years. Associate, Genovese family.
Ralph Polizanno-7 years. Associate, Genovese family
Salvatore Santora-20 years. Capo, Luchese family.
Joseph DiPalermo-15 years. Soldier, Luchese family.
Charlie DiPalermo-20 years. Soldier, Luchese family.
Rocco Mazzie-12 years. Soldier, Anastasia family
Charles Barcellona-5 years. Soldier, Anastasia family.
Daniel Lessa-14 years. Associate, Luchese family.
Nicky Lessa-12 years. Soldier, Luchese family.
Alfredo Aviles-10 years. Associate.
Benjamin Rodriques-10 years. Associate.
Jean Capece-5 years.

and the court's statement...

The Court in its opinion stated (p. 190):

‘They argue that his testimony should have been stricken, that no defendant may be convicted on Cantellops' uncorroborated testimony, and that the indictment should have been dismissed. We do not agree. It was for the jury to judge the witness Cantellops on the basis of all that was brought out about his character, his previous activities.’

The Court further stated on the same page:

‘It is for the jury to say whether his testimony at trial is truthful, in whole or in part, in the light of the witness' demeanour, his explanations and all the evidence in the case.’

It has been claimed that there was no way Genovese would have allowed himself to have been seen in the company of a low level drug dealer like Cantellops. On the other hand, had this low level dealer been the potential conduit to huge amounts of money, it strikes me as more than likely Genovese would have wanted to check him out. Also, the powerful mob boss was almost certainly arrogant in his use of power. He knew, as did everyone around him, that he could have squashed Cantellops like a bug (or a melon.) This kind of attitude could well have made Genovese careless. And, in all fairness to Nelson Cantellops, he admitted that he only actually physically met Genovese briefly, on that one evening on the way to the Bronx meeting.
Posted By: Camarel

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/17/12 05:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped
Nice document HairyKnuckles thanx.Heres a pice of an article and list of the ppl arrested with Genovese...

On July 7th, 1958, FBN agents arrested Genovese and 53 other defendants and 14 co-conspirators involved in the conspiracy. Of this group, only Genovese and 16 others were actually indicted. Two of them, evaded the law and did not appear for trial. The two who escaped arrest were Carmine Galante and John Ormento. Those detained were charged with conspiracy to import, conceal and sell heroin.

On January 5th 1959, the group went on trial. The charges laid against them, in full, were:

Conspiracy to import and smuggle narcotics into the United States.
To receive, conceal, possess, buy and sell the drugs.
To dilute, mix and adulterate the drugs prior to distribution.
To distribute the drugs.

On April 17th they were all found guilty and sentenced from five to twenty years. Vito Genovese was given fifteen years. He was initially confined in the Atlanta Penitentiary. The rest of the conspirators were sentenced as under:

Vincent Gigante-7 years. Soldier, Genovese family.
Joe Evola-10 years. Capo, Bonanno family.
Carmine Polizanno- 8years. Associate, Genovese family.
Ralph Polizanno-7 years. Associate, Genovese family
Salvatore Santora-20 years. Capo, Luchese family.
Joseph DiPalermo-15 years. Soldier, Luchese family.
Charlie DiPalermo-20 years. Soldier, Luchese family.
Rocco Mazzie-12 years. Soldier, Anastasia family
Charles Barcellona-5 years. Soldier, Anastasia family.
Daniel Lessa-14 years. Associate, Luchese family.
Nicky Lessa-12 years. Soldier, Luchese family.
Alfredo Aviles-10 years. Associate.
Benjamin Rodriques-10 years. Associate.
Jean Capece-5 years.

and the court's statement...

The Court in its opinion stated (p. 190):

‘They argue that his testimony should have been stricken, that no defendant may be convicted on Cantellops' uncorroborated testimony, and that the indictment should have been dismissed. We do not agree. It was for the jury to judge the witness Cantellops on the basis of all that was brought out about his character, his previous activities.’

The Court further stated on the same page:

‘It is for the jury to say whether his testimony at trial is truthful, in whole or in part, in the light of the witness' demeanour, his explanations and all the evidence in the case.’

It has been claimed that there was no way Genovese would have allowed himself to have been seen in the company of a low level drug dealer like Cantellops. On the other hand, had this low level dealer been the potential conduit to huge amounts of money, it strikes me as more than likely Genovese would have wanted to check him out. Also, the powerful mob boss was almost certainly arrogant in his use of power. He knew, as did everyone around him, that he could have squashed Cantellops like a bug (or a melon.) This kind of attitude could well have made Genovese careless. And, in all fairness to Nelson Cantellops, he admitted that he only actually physically met Genovese briefly, on that one evening on the way to the Bronx meeting.


Thanks for this. How did Charlie Dipalermo (whoever he is) get more time than Vito?
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/17/12 05:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped

Salvatore Santora-20 years. Capo, Luchese family.

Isn't he the Salvatore Santoro who later became Tony Corallo's underboss? Just being curious.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/17/12 05:31 PM

Dont know about Charlie DiPalermo,but i know that Joe Dipalermo was in jail for narcotics trafficing together with Johnny Diouguardi and he was one of the tormentors of Joe Valachi and put pressure on him...for this Charlie guy...i dunno...bad lawyer? wink

and Dwalin2011 yes i think hes the one
Posted By: BarrettM

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/18/12 07:19 AM

Was reading the Wiki page on the Havana Conference today. Under 'sidenote'. It sort of cites a source, at least worth looking in to although I don't think it fits with who Joe Bonanno was unless he had still never forgiven Luciano for the murder of Sal Maranzano.

Quote:
While Luciano knew that Vito Genovese had tipped off the U.S. government to his whereabouts in Cuba, he did not live to find out was that it was "Joe Bananas" Bonanno who tipped off the New York City papers to Luciano's whereabouts in Cuba in February 1947. Joseph Bonanno was a very respected and feared Don who was also ruthless and very ambitious and always had aspired to being crowned capo di tutti capi, "boss of bosses" just like his former boss and mentor Salvatore Maranzano. This information of Joseph Bonanno's treachery was picked up by former F.B.I. agent William Roemer, who was given the information by several of his former F.B.I. colleagues. Bill Roemer details this on pages 132-42 in his 1990 book, War of the Godfathers.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/18/12 02:22 PM

Bonanno was always jealous at Luciano and reason was obvious
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/18/12 03:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped
Bonanno was always jealous at Luciano and reason was obvious


And the reason was....?
Posted By: Imamobguy

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/18/12 03:27 PM

Luciano was a better boss have to say.. He the Brain of a good Mobster! Worked it all out by himself. Very quiet aswell and didnt show his jealousy, Genovese on the other hand failed to kill Costello and his Jealousy was shown out. Genovese is based on Emilio Barzini..
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/18/12 03:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
Genovese is based on Emilio Barzini..


You are not a mobguy. You are a funnyguy! lol
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/18/12 11:45 PM

The reason why Bonanno was jealous at Luciano...its very simple..Luciano was the chairman(boss of bosses in other words)and Bonanno was not!Bonanno had that castelammarese mentality,his mentor was Maranzano
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 09:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped
The reason why Bonanno was jealous at Luciano...its very simple..Luciano was the chairman(boss of bosses in other words)and Bonanno was not!Bonanno had that castelammarese mentality,his mentor was Maranzano


Let us debunk the thought of Luciano as the "godfather´s godfather", "the founder of the US Mafia", "the creator of the five Families", "the boss of bosses" and whatever else is said about him on Wiki or on attention seeking "documentaries" produced by networks without having done any serious research on the matter.

First of all, the idea of a Commission was circulated among the bosses already during the Castellammarese war in an effort to stop the fighting between Masseria and Maranzano. Maranzano, who was about to win the war and had his eyes focused at the boss of bosses position, naturally rejected the idea. But the idea of a Commission as a governing and ruling body was picked up by Luciano and set in motion after the Maranzano killing with the help of Bonanno, the leader of the Castellammareses and the leader of the winning side in the war.

Second of all, Luciano was never the chairman of the Commission. He was a boss, equal with the rest of them. Simply put, he was just one of a number of Commission members with no special powers or status within the Mafia elite. Because of political ambitions, the myth of Luciano as some sort of a supreme criminal mastermind, was started by Dewey. Luciano was an easy target because he had become the visible face of the mob. Lazy and ignorant journalists further embellished the Luciano legend. He was never a boss of bosses, not even when put between brackets.
The chairman´s position fell on Vincent Mangano because of his superior age. He was replaced by Bonanno and later Magaddino, temporarily, served in this position when Bonanno refused to come in for meetings.

Third of all, the chairman of the Commission never had more votes than the rest of the members. His vote counted the same. He was never a more powerful figure in that regards. His primary function was to serve as a contact person whenever a problem surfaced that needed attention. And it was his job to organize the meetings.
Remember, the chairman had never more formal authority than any other Commission member.
The number of members on the Commission was originally 5, then 7 and then 9. All odd numbers which would assure decisionmaking after voting.

So I don´t understand the jealousy thing. What else was there to be jealous of?
Luciano sent away for 30-50 years for compulsory prostitution, or his deportation to Italy when finally released?

Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 09:21 AM

First Vincent Mangano was secretly controlled by Luciano,his whole Mangano family was controled by Luciano and Mangano knew this and he had to keep quiet anyway,second...you wanna say that when Gambino was on the commision table his vote was counted the same as others?!?!?!? rolleyes...plus Bonanno in his book told lies about Luciano,doesnt that tell you something?!even on the Bonanno interview his a little bit critical at Luciano
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 09:25 AM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Let us debunk the thought of Luciano as the "godfather´s godfather", "the founder of the US Mafia", "the creator of the five Families", "the boss of bosses" and whatever else is said about him on Wiki or on attention seeking "documentaries" produced by networks without having done any serious research on the matter.

First of all, the idea of a Commission was circulated among the bosses already during the Castellammarese war in an effort to stop the fighting between Masseria and Maranzano. Maranzano, who was about to win the war and had his eyes focused at the boss of bosses position, naturally rejected the idea. But the idea of a Commission as a governing and ruling body was picked up by Luciano and set in motion after the Maranzano killing with the help of Bonanno, the leader of the Castellammareses and the leader of the winning side in the war.

Second of all, Luciano was never the chairman of the Commission. He was a boss, equal with the rest of them. Simply put, he was just one of a number of Commission members with no special powers or status within the Mafia elite. Because of political ambitions, the myth of Luciano as some sort of a supreme criminal mastermind, was started by Dewey. Luciano was an easy target because he had become the visible face of the mob. Lazy and ignorant journalists further embellished the Luciano legend. He was never a boss of bosses, not even when put between brackets.
The chairman´s position fell on Vincent Mangano because of his superior age. He was replaced by Bonanno and later Magaddino, temporarily, served in this position when Bonanno refused to come in for meetings.

Third of all, the chairman of the Commission never had more votes than the rest of the members. His vote counted the same. He was never a more powerful figure in that regards. His primary function was to serve as a contact person whenever a problem surfaced that needed attention. And it was his job to organize the meetings.
Remember, the chairman had never more formal authority than any other Commission member.
The number of members on the Commission was originally 5, then 7 and then 9. All odd numbers which would assure decisionmaking after voting.

So I don´t understand the jealousy thing. What else was there to be jealous of?
Luciano sent away for 30-50 years for compulsory prostitution, or his deportation to Italy when finally released?


There is one thing I don't understand: if Luciano was in no way superior to other bosses, then why did the government free him and why did they deal with him and not the other bosses when organizing the landing of the army in Sicily using his mafia contacts?
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 09:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped
First Vincent Mangano was secretly controlled by Luciano,his whole Mangano family was controled by Luciano and Mangano knew this and he had to keep quiet anyway,second...you wanna say that when Gambino was on the commision table his vote was counted the same as others?!?!?!? rolleyes...plus Bonanno in his book told lies about Luciano,doesnt that tell you something?!even on the Bonanno interview his a little bit critical at Luciano


Luciano controled the Mangano Family? First time I´m hearing that.
How many votes did Gambino have? 10?
Have you read the Bonanno book? Where do you find the lies on Lucky? I would like you to ellaborate on that.
A little bit of critical on Luciano? I missed that as well. I think the only thing he says about Luciano is his "he loved to make money"

Have you read the Bonanno book? Bonanno describes Lucky with great respect. So what are you talking about?
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 09:38 AM

"There is one thing I don't understand: if Luciano was in no way superior to other bosses, then why did the government free him and why did they deal with him and not the other bosses when organizing the landing of the army in Sicily using his mafia contacts?"

The governor of New York at the time (Dewey) was looking for contributions for his upcoming presidential campaign. Simple as that.

Luciano most probably had nothing to do with the landing of the US Army in Italy. Besides, Lucky had no contacts within the Sicilian Mafia at the time. Read Tim Newark´s "Lucky Luciano, the real and the fake gangster".
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 09:43 AM

Do your homework ...Luciano controled Mangano through Anastasia,Albert was the main force in the Mangano family,sometimes when Mangano ordered a hit..sometimes it was canceled by Lucky so Mangano grew to resent him.Bonanno sad that Lucky orchastrated the heroin ring and that Bonanno never had his hands in the narco biz,but the truth is they were together on the meeting in Palermo,and other stuff sorry for not remembering but i read the book long time ago....as for Gambino's votes...not 10,but 1000 cool

"Luciano most probably had nothing to do with the landing of the US Army in Italy."..really?!you sure?!?!?!?
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 09:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped
Do your homework ...Luciano controled Mangano through Anastasia,Albert was the main force in the Mangano family,sometimes when Mangano ordered a hit..sometimes it was canceled by Lucky so Mangano grew to resent him.Bonanno sad that Lucky orchastrated the heroin ring and that Bonanno never had his hands in the narco biz,but the truth is they were together on the meeting in Palermo,and other stuff sorry for not remembering but i read the book long time ago....as for Gambino's votes...not 10,but 1000 cool


Wow! Go and read the Bonanno book again and we´ll take it from there...
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 09:51 AM

First of all nothing is true in the Bonanno book(i hate that book)cuz its fictional...but you sayin that Lucania never had anything to do with the US army landing on Sicily...i dunno my friend...maybe you like the action of fantasy and conspiracy?!

I mean whats next...Hoover was the head of LCN?!?!?! wink
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 09:52 AM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Luciano most probably had nothing to do with the landing of the US Army in Italy. Besides, Lucky had no contacts within the Sicilian Mafia at the time. Read Tim Newark´s "Lucky Luciano, the real and the fake gangster".

There must have been some mafia involvement in the landing. Why else would they free all the mafia bosses arrested during fascism and give them important official positions (like mayors of towns etc).
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 09:55 AM

Thats true...why would they release Lucky after that?!?!?good behavior? smile
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 10:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Dwalin2011
Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Luciano most probably had nothing to do with the landing of the US Army in Italy. Besides, Lucky had no contacts within the Sicilian Mafia at the time. Read Tim Newark´s "Lucky Luciano, the real and the fake gangster".

There must have been some mafia involvement in the landing. Why else would they free all the mafia bosses arrested during fascism and give them important official positions (like mayors of towns etc).


Sure there was! But why do you connect Lucky with it?
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 10:21 AM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Sure there was! But why do you connect Lucky with it?


Don't know, I am just saying what I read in every book that mentioned him, so I assumed that Lucky Luciano's connection with the landing was common knowledge, but of course I wasn't there to attend the agreement between him and the army smile
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 10:22 AM

Why not?Don Calogero was connected to Genovese,Vito was under Lucky,after the war Lucky connected with Don Calogero and dont forget Calogero was one of the main players during WWII ...heres a piece of an article has nothing to do with the war...

Bonanno felt he deserved the vaunted position(boss of all bosses)since in his estimation he, unlike his so-called peers, was the only remaining man of honor in the tradition of the Sicilian Mafia.Wealth, he would later write in his controversial 1983 autobiography, was a by-product of power.According to Bonanno, Lucky Luciano and his ilk concerned themselves with the most primitive consideration:making money-an interesting statement coming from a man whose crime family made most of its profits from the sale and distribution of narcotics..............Joe always sayin that he was this and that...and others were something else diferent from him bla bla bla...
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 02:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Dwalin2011
Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Sure there was! But why do you connect Lucky with it?


Don't know, I am just saying what I read in every book that mentioned him, so I assumed that Lucky Luciano's connection with the landing was common knowledge, but of course I wasn't there to attend the agreement between him and the army smile


Well, then you should read Tim Newark´s book, mentioned in a post above. To my knowledge, it´s the last book written on Luciano.
Posted By: tree

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 02:41 PM

do you know how stupid you sound!im gonna say this again and only once more!stop tryin to justify nothin.it all comes down to racism plain and simple.and many people still kill their own everyday so what an italian killed a black or white or the opposite.they get us to turn on one another in prison in hopes that we will kill one another.as long as their is not equality for everyone their will be a problem.and that white kid dont have no business doing wrong this is his world!its set up for him.now i dont have all day to civilize you when people are sufferin
Posted By: Five_Felonies

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 02:45 PM

Originally Posted By: tree
do you know how stupid you sound!im gonna say this again and only once more!stop tryin to justify nothin.it all comes down to racism plain and simple.and many people still kill their own everyday so what an italian killed a black or white or the opposite.they get us to turn on one another in prison in hopes that we will kill one another.as long as their is not equality for everyone their will be a problem.and that white kid dont have no business doing wrong this is his world!its set up for him.now i dont have all day to civilize you when people are sufferin
what are you even talking about? every single one of your posts has been about people being "racist" when there hasn't even been anything mentioned about race. please do everyone a favor and leave.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 04:06 PM

lol

Here's something about the Luciano's release and the heroin route...

In 1946 American military intelligence made one final gift to the Mafia -they released Luciano from prison and deported him to Italy, thereby freeing the greatest criminal talent of his generation to rebuild the heroin trade. Appealing to the New York State Parole Board in 1945 for his immediate release, Luciano's lawyers based their case on his wartime services to the navy and army. Although naval intelligence officers called to give evidence at the hearings were extremely vague about what they had promised Luciano in exchange for his services, one naval officer wrote a number of confidential letters on Luciano's behalf that were instrumental in securing his release.Within two years after Luciano returned to Italy, the U.S. government deported over one hundred more mafiosi as well. And with the cooperation of his old friend, Don Calogero, and the help of many of his old followers from New York, Luciano was able to build an awesome international narcotics syndicate soon after his arrival in Italy.
The narcotics syndicate Luciano organized after World War It remains one of the most remarkable in the history of the traffic. For more than a decade it moved morphine base from the Middle East to Europe, transformed it into heroin, and then exported it in substantial quantities to the United States-all without ever suffering a major arrest or seizure. The organization's comprehensive distribution network within the United States increased the number of active addicts from an estimated 20,000 at the close of the war to 60,000 in 1952 and to 150,000 by 1965.
After resurrecting the narcotics traffic, Luciano's first problem was securing a reliable supply of heroin. Initially he relied on diverting legally produced heroin from one of Italy's most respected pharmaceutical companies, Schiaparelli. However, investigations by the U.S. Federal Bureau of Narcotics in 1950-which disclosed that a minimum of 700 kilos of heroin had been diverted to Luciano over a four-year period-led to a tightening of Italian pharmaceutical regulations. But by this time Luciano had built up a network of clandestine laboratories in Sicily and Marseille and no longer needed to divert the Schiaparelli product.
Morphine base was now the necessary commodity. Thanks to his contacts in the Middle East, Luciano established a long-term business relationship with a Lebanese who was quickly becoming known as the Middle East's major exporter of morphine base-Sami El Khoury. Through judicious use of bribes and his high social standing in Beirut society,El Khoury established an organization of unparalleled political strength. The directors of Beirut Airport, Lebanese customs, the Lebanese narcotics police, and perhaps most importantly, the chief of the antisubversive section of the Lebanese police,protected the import of raw opium from Turkey's Anatolian plateau into Lebanon, its processing into morphine base, and its final export to the laboratories in Sicily and Marseille.
After the morphine left Lebanon, its first stop was the bays and inlets of Sicily's western coast. There Palermo's fishing trawlers would meet ocean-going freighters from the Middle East in international waters, pick up the drug cargo, and then smuggle it into fishing villages scattered along the rugged coastline.
Once the morphine base was safely ashore, it was transformed into heroin in one of Luciano's clandestine laboratories. Typical of these was the candy factory opened in Palermo in 1949: it was ]eased to one of Luciano's cousins and managed by Don Calogero himself.The laboratory operated without incident until April 11, 1954, when the Roman daily Avanti! published a photograph of the factory under the headline "Textiles and Sweets on the Drug Route." That evening the factory was closed, and the laboratory's chemists were reportedly smuggled out of the country.
Once heroin had been manufactured and packaged for export, Luciano used his Mafia connections to send it through a maze of international routes to the United States. Not all of the mafiosi deported from the United States stayed in Sicily. To reduce the chance of seizure, Luciano had placed many of them in such European cities as Milan, Hamburg, Paris, and Marseille so they could forward the heroin to the United States after it arrived from Sicil concealed in fruits, vegetables, or candy. From Europe heroin was shipped directly to New York or smuggled through Canada and Cuba.
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 04:21 PM

Who is don Calogero? Is it Calogero Vizzini from Villalba?
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 04:24 PM

yes
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 04:27 PM

I remember reading about the inscription on his grave: something like "his mafia wasn't crime, but respect towards the law, it was love" lol lol lol Sicilian humor is the best!
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 04:35 PM

lol its more like black humor...i dont remember where i heard about this maybe on some doc but before his last breath on his dying bed his last words were something like "Life is beautiful"...dude was a mobster "to the bone" cool
Posted By: ht2

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 05:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped
First Vincent Mangano was secretly controlled by Luciano,his whole Mangano family was controled by Luciano and Mangano knew this and he had to keep quiet anyway,second...you wanna say that when Gambino was on the commision table his vote was counted the same as others?!?!?!? rolleyes...plus Bonanno in his book told lies about Luciano,doesnt that tell you something?!even on the Bonanno interview his a little bit critical at Luciano

I believe this also. Anastasia was regularly associating with members of Luciano's inner circle (Joe Adonis, Costello etc.) and there are reports that this was a source of arguments, but Mangano was powerless to do anything about it. On an older thread someone described Luciano as "first among equals". As leader of the most powerful family with syndicate ties to non italian gangsters, Luciano held sway over the other bosses.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 05:11 PM

Toodoped, if you're going post a large amount of stuff from another site, you need to identify the source--it's their intellectual property:

[url=tp://www.druglibrary.eu/library/books/McCoy/book/09.htm][url=tp://www.druglibrary.eu/library/books/McCoy/book/09.htm][url=tp://www.druglibrary.eu/library/books/McCoy/book/09.htm]tp://www.druglibrary.eu/library/books/McCoy/book/09.htm[/url][/url][/url]
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 05:41 PM

ok no problem next time i will...the thing is over the years ive copied some articels that i found on the net and on some of em i know only the author but not the site...my question is this can i put just the name of the author on the article will than be ok?
Posted By: Imamobguy

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:01 PM

It's true. Genovese is lossely based on Emilio Barzini. Barzini wanted to kill Corleone to become the top boss, Barzini ordered the death of Santino and particapted with Sollozzo to kill Corleone.
Posted By: Imamobguy

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped
First Vincent Mangano was secretly controlled by Luciano,his whole Mangano family was controled by Luciano and Mangano knew this and he had to keep quiet anyway,second...you wanna say that when Gambino was on the commision table his vote was counted the same as others?!?!?!? rolleyes...plus Bonanno in his book told lies about Luciano,doesnt that tell you something?!even on the Bonanno interview his a little bit critical at Luciano


Bonanno didnt tell lies, Toodoped you believe Wikipedia. Wikipedia are made up from Sources and References linked up from Newspaper's and "Historian"'s bullshit. Bonanno was a real man, He knew the truth and he wasnt a lieing man like I said before, I did an Interview with his Bill Bonanno in early 2000 and did an Interview with Daniel, Bonanno's adopted son. Bonanno spoke the truth. Believe the fact's Toodoped not the Newspaper.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:10 PM

Heres a part from another article taken from Gangstersinc.com written by Thom L.Jones and its about the drug route and Genovese member Mike Coppola...

From February to April 1937, Coppola rented a house on East 5th Street in Tuscon, Arizona, and along with Cleveland mobster Al Polizzi, Lepke Buchalter from New York, Pete Licavoli from Detroit and Joe Zucker, an aide to Frank Costello, spent time socialising with Jewish gangster Moe Dalitz, who went about purchasing a chain of laundries in the area, (Dalitz seemed to have a thing about laundries, owing a string of them in Detroit and Cleveland,) but just what these other gangsters were discussing as they went hunting and partying has never been disclosed, although it's fairly certain they had not travelled all this way just to get a tan.
It has been suggested that with the Nazi government disrupting traditional drug trafficking routes out of Europe, these men had gathered here, close to the Mexican border, to try to sort out alternate routes for their raw materials source. If in fact this is what they had assembled here for, they were probably dealing with Enrique Diarte, a Tijuana based Mexican narcotics trafficker, who in the late 1930s and early 1940s was probably the biggest drug dealer in Mexico.
By the early 1940s Coppola had consolidated his position in the Luciano family, growing rich on the proceeds of his gambling activities. His place in the mob was obviously a mystery to law enforcement officials at city and government level.
The Federal Bureau of Narcotics (FBN,) who were probably the most active agency tacking the Mafia at this time, wrongly perceived him as a lieutenant in the 107th. Street Mob, which is known today as the Luchese family.The agency had created a file in 1936 showing the group was led by Tommy Luchese assisted by Coppola and Dominck Petrelli. They believed the overall boss of the 107th Street Mob to be Ciro Terranova.
Petrelli, Coppola and Terranova were part of the Mafia clan that was controlled by Charlie Luciano. The FBN did however, get Luchese’s place in the 107th correctly identified, just not his position. The family at this time was controlled by Tommaso Gagliano. The FBI would never “officially” recognize the existence of the Mafia for almost another twenty years, which no doubt suited Coppola and his mob friends down to the ground.
Mike Coppola was part of a crew operating in East Harlem that would become famous for at least four of its other members in the years to come:
Joseph 'Socks' Lanza, who became the czar of the Fulton Fish Market for the mob, making it for many years a major cash-cow for the Luciano crime family. Lanza probably worked for Coppola as a “muscle” man in the early stages of his mob career, but became a man of such standing, when he married in 1941, his best man was Frank Costello, then the head of the family.
Phil Lombardo, a small, bald, and cross-eyed gangster, who at one time was driver/bodyguard for big boss Charlie Luciano and would become the family boss himself one day.
Anthony ‘Fat Tony’ Salerno, one of three brothers in the mob, the others being Alfred and Angelo, who would also rise in ranking to be the big cheese in the Genovese crime family, at least the 'front' big cheese.
And Barney Bellomo who may or may not have reached that exalted position in the 21st century.
According to informant Joseph Valachi, “Trigger Mike’s” crew was the biggest in the family, which if true, would have made him one if not the most powerful capo in what was perhaps the biggest Mafia unit in New York, at the time.

and here's a link for the whole article..

http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/man-is-the-cruelest-animal-the
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:11 PM

now dont forget this....i never read wiki,i dont care about wiki and for your own good,dont belive a mobster's story told by a 90 year's old mobster who was one of the ppl that orchastrated somethin that every young person today is growin up with it and thats drugs shhh
Posted By: Camarel

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
Originally Posted By: Toodoped
First Vincent Mangano was secretly controlled by Luciano,his whole Mangano family was controled by Luciano and Mangano knew this and he had to keep quiet anyway,second...you wanna say that when Gambino was on the commision table his vote was counted the same as others?!?!?!? rolleyes...plus Bonanno in his book told lies about Luciano,doesnt that tell you something?!even on the Bonanno interview his a little bit critical at Luciano




Bonanno didnt tell lies, Toodoped you believe Wikipedia. Wikipedia are made up from Sources and References linked up from Newspaper's and "Historian"'s bullshit. Bonanno was a real man, He knew the truth and he wasnt a lieing man like I said before, I did an Interview with his Bill Bonanno in early 2000 and did an Interview with Daniel, Bonanno's adopted son. Bonanno spoke the truth. Believe the fact's Toodoped not the Newspaper.


So you actually believe Joe banned drugs and wasn't making millions off them with Galante? Or he knew nothing about what was going to happen to Maranzano?
Posted By: Imamobguy

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:18 PM

Some Author's storys are backed up by Rats, If you say Authors are correct then you are saying Bonanno was correct. Some Authors rely on the real thing not the fucking television show or what the FBI think is true. Bonanno grew up in the roaring 20s and I dont really think Bonanno was want to lie about his past aged 97. If he wanted to lie he wouldnt of made a book.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:20 PM

so Bonanno never sold drugs?thats what your sayin right now?and he wouldnt lie in his book?
Posted By: Camarel

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
Some Author's storys are backed up by Rats, If you say Authors are correct then you are saying Bonanno was correct. Some Authors rely on the real thing not the fucking television show or what the FBI think is true. Bonanno grew up in the roaring 20s and I dont really think Bonanno was want to lie about his past aged 97. If he wanted to lie he wouldnt of made a book.


He definitely lied about drugs and most likely lied about Maranzano. Did he even have a son called Daniel?
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
It's true. Genovese is lossely based on Emilio Barzini. Barzini wanted to kill Corleone to become the top boss, Barzini ordered the death of Santino and particapted with Sollozzo to kill Corleone.



I wasn´t doubting that. But Genovese was a living person, while Barzini was/is not. So it should be "Barzini was based on Genovese". Right? Or is my english that bad? smile
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:23 PM

Some ppl even belive that he made the book as revenge to the mob!Rudy Giuliani used it as evidence
Posted By: Imamobguy

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:24 PM

Maybe he did sell Drugs, Drug's was business now Drug's is at the top, It makes more money than Racketeering and Loansharking. Bonanno wasnt a lieing man, He was Italian. Italian's dont lie.. wink
Posted By: ht2

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped
even on the Bonanno interview his a little bit critical at Luciano


I think Bonanno leaned toward the "conservative faction" while Luciano was part of the newer "liberal faction" of bosses (Tony Accardo, Costello, Anastasia etc.) The liberal faction bosses didn't care much for Sicilian tradition while the conservative faction bosses emphasized old world tradition, honor, rituals and perhaps a sicilian only attitude. These descriptions were probably made up by historians, but I think it describes real contention in the mob at the time. In interview (60 minutes?) Bonanno Sr describes Luciano as being only interested in making money.
Posted By: Imamobguy

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:26 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
It's true. Genovese is lossely based on Emilio Barzini. Barzini wanted to kill Corleone to become the top boss, Barzini ordered the death of Santino and particapted with Sollozzo to kill Corleone.



I wasn´t doubting that. But Genovese was a living person, while Barzini was/is not. So it should be "Barzini was based on Genovese". Right? Or is my english that bad? smile


Haha Sorry... Your right, Barzini based on Genovese. Well done smile
Posted By: Imamobguy

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Camarel
Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
Some Author's storys are backed up by Rats, If you say Authors are correct then you are saying Bonanno was correct. Some Authors rely on the real thing not the fucking television show or what the FBI think is true. Bonanno grew up in the roaring 20s and I dont really think Bonanno was want to lie about his past aged 97. If he wanted to lie he wouldnt of made a book.


He definitely lied about drugs and most likely lied about Maranzano. Did he even have a son called Daniel?


How do you know that for a fact, Were you in the Bonanno Family? Did you see it for yourself or are you one of those people who believe an Author who think's he knows it more than a real member. What exactly did he lie about Maranzano?
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Camarel
Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
Originally Posted By: Toodoped
First Vincent Mangano was secretly controlled by Luciano,his whole Mangano family was controled by Luciano and Mangano knew this and he had to keep quiet anyway,second...you wanna say that when Gambino was on the commision table his vote was counted the same as others?!?!?!? rolleyes...plus Bonanno in his book told lies about Luciano,doesnt that tell you something?!even on the Bonanno interview his a little bit critical at Luciano




Bonanno didnt tell lies, Toodoped you believe Wikipedia. Wikipedia are made up from Sources and References linked up from Newspaper's and "Historian"'s bullshit. Bonanno was a real man, He knew the truth and he wasnt a lieing man like I said before, I did an Interview with his Bill Bonanno in early 2000 and did an Interview with Daniel, Bonanno's adopted son. Bonanno spoke the truth. Believe the fact's Toodoped not the Newspaper.


So you actually believe Joe banned drugs and wasn't making millions off them with Galante? Or he knew nothing about what was going to happen to Maranzano?


Bonanno def banned drugs. Just like Gambino did in 1963. Other bosses did as well. However, the problem was that the bosses could not stop their soldiers from dealing.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:32 PM

You are defently right..they killed their soldatos if caught with drugs...but srill they were the world wide leaders of the drug ring or just took thir cut wink
Posted By: Imamobguy

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:36 PM

Maybe he never knew anything about Maranzano, Lansky and Luciano were succesful because they worked low key (quiet). Bill didnt have much to do with Maranzano except he joined Maranzano's gang and joined him during the war. Im surprised Bonanno wasnt killed but later made a deal with Luciano and became a worker for him.
Posted By: Camarel

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
Originally Posted By: Camarel
Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
Some Author's storys are backed up by Rats, If you say Authors are correct then you are saying Bonanno was correct. Some Authors rely on the real thing not the fucking television show or what the FBI think is true. Bonanno grew up in the roaring 20s and I dont really think Bonanno was want to lie about his past aged 97. If he wanted to lie he wouldnt of made a book.


He definitely lied about drugs and most likely lied about Maranzano. Did he even have a son called Daniel?


How do you know that for a fact, Were you in the Bonanno Family? Did you see it for yourself or are you one of those people who believe an Author who think's he knows it more than a real member. What exactly did he lie about Maranzano?


Fair enough i shouldn't have said definitely but the evidence suggests Joe knew his men were selling drugs. Like when Galante got indicted on heroin charges in 1959 Bonanno had 3 years to do something about it before Carmine was jailed . Also the guy who was in charge of his Montreal rackets was charged with drug dealing after pleading guilty Joe still kept him in charge of Montreal.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 06:47 PM

^^^ True!
Posted By: Imamobguy

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 07:11 PM

Carmine Galante's main business in the 1960's were the Heroin Drug Trade. When Galante got out of Prison, The Sicilian Faction had him all set up with deal's and eventually he came the biggest drug lord in America in 1964 to 1965. I dont believe in Drugs, I dont call it business. It ruins, Women and Teenagers. When you get suspected for Drugs, You get about 40 years slammed up!
Posted By: Camarel

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 07:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
Carmine Galante's main business in the 1960's were the Heroin Drug Trade. When Galante got out of Prison, The Sicilian Faction had him all set up with deal's and eventually he came the biggest drug lord in America in 1964 to 1965. I dont believe in Drugs, I dont call it business. It ruins, Women and Teenagers. When you get suspected for Drugs, You get about 40 years slammed up!


It still seems like Joe knew exactly what Carmine was doing.
Posted By: Imamobguy

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 07:21 PM

Bill Bonanno once said, Joseph was going to send people to kill Galante for bringing heat by the Cops with Drugs. The Murder never took place for Joseph but I bet Carmine's murder was good enough backed up by Sonny Red.
Posted By: Camarel

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 07:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
Bill Bonanno once said, Joseph was going to send people to kill Galante for bringing heat by the Cops with Drugs. The Murder never took place for Joseph but I bet Carmine's murder was good enough backed up by Sonny Red.


Bill actually said he was shocked at his fathers lack of action against Galante.
Posted By: Imamobguy

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 07:34 PM

He might of said that once but I heard Words coming out of his mouth, Is that normal? Drug's is very bad for business if you get your hand in the jar your done for life.
Posted By: Camarel

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 07:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
He might of said that once but I heard Words coming out of his mouth, Is that normal? Drug's is very bad for business if you get your hand in the jar your done for life.


He wrote that in his book. So i think his credibility is shot right there since he can't keep his story straight. Out of interest why did you interview him was it for a book?
Posted By: Imamobguy

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 08:00 PM

I didnt feel anything for Bill Bonanno, He had it all set up from his father Joseph. Joseph had to work from nothing and started his own empire like Corleone. Actually, I never interviewed him, My Nephew did for a website he had which was updated on Cosa Nostra stuff. Believe this or not, Half of my family were Associate's of the Lucchese family in New York. My Deceased brother Adam J. Berardo was a small time Associate of the Lucchese's and recently passed two weeks ago. Adam ratted out and my father was served 20 years for Racketeering Operation's in New Jersey. My Grandfather, James Berardo was a Captain during the 1960's to the early 1990s. My Grandfather was a close "Bodyguard" if you say so to Tommy Lucchese in the early 1960s for about a year. My Grandfather was a driver for Anthony Corallo in his early 70's and a friend to Carmine Tramunti. My Grandfather had only been arrested for high Racketeering and Loansharking operations in Brooklyn and New Jersey with high ranking Lucchese members and Bonanno members. Im in the middle of creating a book with John Dickie a famous Cosa Nostra author and we will be naming it "The Berardo Family "This Story of Ours" ". I will keep you updated if you like. My Grandfather sat with me drinking wine around 1994 and told me the secrets of Cosa Nostra within other things and The Bonanno's. Here's a link of my Grandfather - http://realcosanostra.wikia.com/wiki/James_Berardo
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 08:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped
ok no problem next time i will...the thing is over the years ive copied some articels that i found on the net and on some of em i know only the author but not the site...my question is this can i put just the name of the author on the article will than be ok?

Sure. Just acknowledge the source.
Posted By: Camarel

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 08:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
I didnt feel anything for Bill Bonanno, He had it all set up from his father Joseph. Joseph had to work from nothing and started his own empire like Corleone. Actually, I never interviewed him, My Nephew did for a website he had which was updated on Cosa Nostra stuff. Believe this or not, Half of my family were Associate's of the Lucchese family in New York. My Deceased brother Adam J. Berardo was a small time Associate of the Lucchese's and recently passed two weeks ago. Adam ratted out and my father was served 20 years for Racketeering Operation's in New Jersey. My Grandfather, James Berardo was a Captain during the 1960's to the early 1990s. My Grandfather was a close "Bodyguard" if you say so to Tommy Lucchese in the early 1960s for about a year. My Grandfather was a driver for Anthony Corallo in his early 70's and a friend to Carmine Tramunti. My Grandfather had only been arrested for high Racketeering and Loansharking operations in Brooklyn and New Jersey with high ranking Lucchese members and Bonanno members. Im in the middle of creating a book with John Dickie a famous Cosa Nostra author and we will be naming it "The Berardo Family "This Story of Ours" ". I will keep you updated if you like. My Grandfather sat with me drinking wine around 1994 and told me the secrets of Cosa Nostra within other things and The Bonanno's. Here's a link of my Grandfather - http://realcosanostra.wikia.com/wiki/James_Berardo


Interesting stuff i'd like you to keep me updated smile
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 08:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Dwalin2011
Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Luciano most probably had nothing to do with the landing of the US Army in Italy. Besides, Lucky had no contacts within the Sicilian Mafia at the time. Read Tim Newark´s "Lucky Luciano, the real and the fake gangster".

There must have been some mafia involvement in the landing. Why else would they free all the mafia bosses arrested during fascism and give them important official positions (like mayors of towns etc).


Luciano and his cohorts pulled off one of the great con jobs on Uncle Sam:

Soon after the US entered WWII, the government seized the French ocean liner Normandy, which was on a West Side Manhattan pier, and began to renovate it as a troop-carrier. A worker got careless with a torch, igniting some burlap sacks and setting a fire that caused the ship to capsize. The US Navy commander of the port suspected "sabotage" by "Axis agents" mingling with Italian and German longshoremen. Joseph (Socks) Lanza, Mob boss of the waterfront, took that info to Meyer Lansky. He brought it to Luciano in his upstate NY prison. Result: Lansky approached Judge Murray Gurfein, who'd been one of Dewey's prosecutors in the case against Luciano, with a promise: Lucky would assure that no further "sabotage" would occur on the docks, in return for better treatment. Lucky was moved to a "more comfortable" prison closer to NYC, and was deported in '46.

And, you're right, Lucky didn't help the Allies with the Sicilian landings because he'd been long gone from that island. Sicilian Mafiosi had been driven underground by Mussolini, who regarded them as a rival power. As soon as the Allies landed, the Mafiosi identified themselves as "Resistance fighters," and the allies bought it--restoring the gabellotti to their former positions and appointed them mayors, judges, etc. They got help from Genovese, who, ironically, had ingratiated himself with Mussolini earlier but moved to Sicily after the invasion to be "helpful" as a translater and go-between for the Allies and the Mafia. He bribed countless American officers to get access to scarce consumer goods, auto parts, etc., and shipped them to Naples where he ran the largest black-market operation in Italy.
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 08:45 PM

What's interesting, is that even those mafiosi who had aligned themselves with the fascists to avoid jail and therefore couldn't identify themselves as "resistance fighters", also got privileged treatment - for example, Vincenzo Di Carlo from Raffadali, he was the local fascist leader, but nevertheless was appointed as responsible for the requisition of cereals by the Allies. Many others (especially the landowners whom Mussolini didn't treat too badly even though they protected the mafia bosses) were also treated as "friends" in spite of their ties to the fascists.

I wonder what would have happened if Vito Cascio Ferro (the one who killed the American police officer Giuseppe Petrosino in 1909) didn't die in jail and was freed with the others, would he have regained his position in the mafia or would he have just been killed off as a "relic of the past"?
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 08:47 PM

About the Normandy thing...was it the german secret agency responsible or the mob?
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 09:26 PM

I found an interesting article, published in Wasington Post, March 15, 1962. With his own words, Lucky Luciano explained why and how he was allowed to switch prison from the dreadful Sing Sing to a more tolerable prison during the WWII. And it had nothing to do with him allegedy helping out the US Navy.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19620315&id=BcVOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uw4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=4534,2786310
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 09:38 PM

really cool post,theres not much stuff you can find with mobsters own words,but i think if Lucky ever sad something to the reporter like "I worked with the US navy and the secret agency" he would've been put on spot right there

by the way to go with the story..who do you think was the prominent oficial,Dewey or Hoover?
Posted By: Lenin_and_McCarthy

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/19/12 10:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Camarel
Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
I didnt feel anything for Bill Bonanno, He had it all set up from his father Joseph. Joseph had to work from nothing and started his own empire like Corleone. Actually, I never interviewed him, My Nephew did for a website he had which was updated on Cosa Nostra stuff. Believe this or not, Half of my family were Associate's of the Lucchese family in New York. My Deceased brother Adam J. Berardo was a small time Associate of the Lucchese's and recently passed two weeks ago. Adam ratted out and my father was served 20 years for Racketeering Operation's in New Jersey. My Grandfather, James Berardo was a Captain during the 1960's to the early 1990s. My Grandfather was a close "Bodyguard" if you say so to Tommy Lucchese in the early 1960s for about a year. My Grandfather was a driver for Anthony Corallo in his early 70's and a friend to Carmine Tramunti. My Grandfather had only been arrested for high Racketeering and Loansharking operations in Brooklyn and New Jersey with high ranking Lucchese members and Bonanno members. Im in the middle of creating a book with John Dickie a famous Cosa Nostra author and we will be naming it "The Berardo Family "This Story of Ours" ". I will keep you updated if you like. My Grandfather sat with me drinking wine around 1994 and told me the secrets of Cosa Nostra within other things and The Bonanno's. Here's a link of my Grandfather - http://realcosanostra.wikia.com/wiki/James_Berardo


Interesting stuff i'd like you to keep me updated smile


Likewise. I'd love to hear what he's got that got me no other results on Google web, books or news archives.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/20/12 01:44 AM


Originally Posted By: Toodoped
About the Normandy thing...was it the german secret agency responsible or the mob?

Neither. The Normandy fire was strictly an accident. But, if the Naval commander of the Port of New York wanted to believe it was the work of the Germans working with Italian and German longshoremen, the least that Luciano could do was go along with them...

Quote:
by the way to go with the story..who do you think was the prominent oficial,Dewey or Hoover?


Dewey was the special prosecutor who put Luciano away in '36. He was governor of NY when the deportation order was issued. Hoover had nothing to do with it. At that time he wasn't even acknowledging that the Mob existed.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/20/12 04:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull

Originally Posted By: Toodoped
About the Normandy thing...was it the german secret agency responsible or the mob?

Neither. The Normandy fire was strictly an accident. But, if the Naval commander of the Port of New York wanted to believe it was the work of the Germans working with Italian and German longshoremen, the least that Luciano could do was go along with them...


There is solid proof however that German U-boots reached the shores of New York City. So the rumor of German sabotage wasn't that far-fetched.
Posted By: Five_Felonies

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/20/12 04:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
There is solid proof however that German U-boots reached the shores of New York City. So the rumor of German sabotage wasn't that far-fetched.
very true check it out...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pastorius
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/20/12 06:20 PM

Part of an article written by Thom L.Jones,its about placing the italian mafiosi as mayors of towns after WWII...

AMGOT (Allied Military Government of Occupied Territories) commander Charles Poletti, was encouraged to recommend the re-placing of mayors into towns and villages as an urgent measure following the allied force’s occupation of Sicily. Many of these were also Mafioso. In fact, 90% of the 352 newly appointed mayors were either Mafioso or people linked into the Separatist movement which was inextricably allied to the Mafia.
While AMGOT was busy helping re-establish the Mafia, wittingly or otherwise, the OSS (forerunner to the CIA) had recognized the dangers inherent in this. Captain W.E. Scotton, early in 1944, produced a report on the Mafia presence in Sicily warning of ‘the signs of Mafia resurgence and its perils for social order and economic progress.’
The OSS had allied with the Mafia as part of the invasion strategy of the Allies in their assault on Sicily, and the agency kept close to them in order to check the growth of the Italian Communist Party on the island. There was also the very real danger that the Sicilian Separatist Movement, led by Finocchiaro Aprile, in alliance with the Mafia, would use the turbulent times to try to free itself from Italian hegemony.
Di Carlo was allegedly a captain in the US Marines who was assisting in this re-establishment exercise, and would have obviously supported Dr. Navarra who was in fact his cousin. It would have been a short step from backing a mayor to backing a new boss of the other side of Corleone. There is, however, doubt that Di Carlo was even in Sicily, as he was deported back to Italy sometime after 1947.
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/20/12 06:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped

Di Carlo was allegedly a captain in the US Marines who was assisting in this re-establishment exercise, and would have obviously supported Dr. Navarra who was in fact his cousin. It would have been a short step from backing a mayor to backing a new boss of the other side of Corleone. There is, however, doubt that Di Carlo was even in Sicily, as he was deported back to Italy sometime after 1947.

Maybe it's a different Di Carlo? The biography of the one I talked about is presented here among other mafia biographies
http://legislature.camera.it/_dati/leg05/lavori/stampati/pdf/023_002223.pdf
(sorry I found it only in Italian) and there is no mention of him ever leaving Sicily.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/20/12 06:44 PM

He had a major role in Navarra takin over Corleone...
quote from the same article"Navarra perhaps had a strong ally in the form of a man called Angelo Di Carlo,it’s interesting to speculate that Di Carlo may have been instrumental in helping Dr. Navarra’s campaign to take over the Corleone cosca.
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/20/12 06:46 PM

Yes, it's a different one. The one I talked about was called Vincenzo, not Angelo. But what happened to Angelo Di Carlo later, did he join Luciano Leggio or was he killed with the Navarra loyalists?
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/20/12 07:00 PM

Maybe who knows,cant find any information on him except this...its from the same article..
"Born in Corleone in 1891 and a Mafioso, (as a young butcher, he had been a suspect in the killing of Bernardino Verro in 1915) he was one of the many who had fled Mori’s purge, sometime in 1925 or 1926 when he arrived in New York at the age of thirty-five. He had lived in America for almost twenty years. A tall man, with brown eyes and a heavy build, he ran a travel agency with his brother, Galogero, in New York. The FBN targeted him as a drug trafficker, among other things, using the business as a front"
....and he was 76 when he died so i think he died out of natural cause
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/20/12 07:06 PM

Heres ANOTHER part of an article written by Thom L.Jones on how Luciano got out of jail...

But just how Charlie got his pass, and why he was allowed to sail off into the evening glow so to speak, on that miserable, rainy day in February, has always been a bit of a mystery. There have been lots words written about it, in a number of different books, with the basic premise something along these lines:

The New York Harbour, the biggest and most important in the USA, and the staging post for any future American involvement in World War Two, was at risk from Nazi attacks, both overt and subvert. The eyes and ears needed to aid Naval intelligence services were the dock workers and fishermen, and everyone knew that the mob controlled the waterfront, and Luciano, a.k.a. Salvatore Lucania, also known as Charlie Lucky, was obviously a very important man in the underworld. Ergo, he should be able to help secure the cooperation of the waterside workers to aid any intelligence operations.

A FBI report dated May, 1946 states:

In 1941, the security of the port of New York was a matter of great concern, not only to the Third Naval District, but to the Secretary of the Navy and the President of the United States, and further that in accordance with the directive issued by the Secretary of Navy, the activities of the District Intelligence Organization (DIO), in the Third Naval District were expanded to afford the required coverage in the port of New York.

It was also pointed out that considerable newspaper publicity concerning the Navy’s responsibility in this regard occurred in 1941, and as a result of it, the District Attorney of New York County, invited the DIO to discuss matters concerning the port of New York. At a meeting subsequently held, the District Intelligence Officer was informed that the ‘Rackets‘ Section of the District Attorney’s Office had numerous contacts in the underworld familiar with waterfront situations. Arrangements were made whereby pertinent information would be called to the attention of the DIO.

Then there was Lucky’s part in the invasion of Europe. A letter send to Charles Brietel, Secretary to Governor Thomas E. Dewey of New York, stated that the author:

was confident that the greater part of intelligence developed in the Sicilian Campaign was directly responsible to the number of Sicilians that emanated from the Charlie ‘Lucky‘ Luciano’s contacts.

and heres a link to the whole story...

http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/luckys-luck-how-charlie
Posted By: Imamobguy

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/20/12 08:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Lenin_and_McCarthy
Originally Posted By: Camarel
Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
I didnt feel anything for Bill Bonanno, He had it all set up from his father Joseph. Joseph had to work from nothing and started his own empire like Corleone. Actually, I never interviewed him, My Nephew did for a website he had which was updated on Cosa Nostra stuff. Believe this or not, Half of my family were Associate's of the Lucchese family in New York. My Deceased brother Adam J. Berardo was a small time Associate of the Lucchese's and recently passed two weeks ago. Adam ratted out and my father was served 20 years for Racketeering Operation's in New Jersey. My Grandfather, James Berardo was a Captain during the 1960's to the early 1990s. My Grandfather was a close "Bodyguard" if you say so to Tommy Lucchese in the early 1960s for about a year. My Grandfather was a driver for Anthony Corallo in his early 70's and a friend to Carmine Tramunti. My Grandfather had only been arrested for high Racketeering and Loansharking operations in Brooklyn and New Jersey with high ranking Lucchese members and Bonanno members. Im in the middle of creating a book with John Dickie a famous Cosa Nostra author and we will be naming it "The Berardo Family "This Story of Ours" ". I will keep you updated if you like. My Grandfather sat with me drinking wine around 1994 and told me the secrets of Cosa Nostra within other things and The Bonanno's. Here's a link of my Grandfather - http://realcosanostra.wikia.com/wiki/James_Berardo


Interesting stuff i'd like you to keep me updated smile


Likewise. I'd love to hear what he's got that got me no other results on Google web, books or news archives.


Well, Like I said. We are in the middle of it. I have already met him and talked about the whole Book. I've read one of his book's - Mafia Brotherhoods.
Posted By: Camarel

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/21/12 01:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
Originally Posted By: Lenin_and_McCarthy
Originally Posted By: Camarel
Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
I didnt feel anything for Bill Bonanno, He had it all set up from his father Joseph. Joseph had to work from nothing and started his own empire like Corleone. Actually, I never interviewed him, My Nephew did for a website he had which was updated on Cosa Nostra stuff. Believe this or not, Half of my family were Associate's of the Lucchese family in New York. My Deceased brother Adam J. Berardo was a small time Associate of the Lucchese's and recently passed two weeks ago. Adam ratted out and my father was served 20 years for Racketeering Operation's in New Jersey. My Grandfather, James Berardo was a Captain during the 1960's to the early 1990s. My Grandfather was a close "Bodyguard" if you say so to Tommy Lucchese in the early 1960s for about a year. My Grandfather was a driver for Anthony Corallo in his early 70's and a friend to Carmine Tramunti. My Grandfather had only been arrested for high Racketeering and Loansharking operations in Brooklyn and New Jersey with high ranking Lucchese members and Bonanno members. Im in the middle of creating a book with John Dickie a famous Cosa Nostra author and we will be naming it "The Berardo Family "This Story of Ours" ". I will keep you updated if you like. My Grandfather sat with me drinking wine around 1994 and told me the secrets of Cosa Nostra within other things and The Bonanno's. Here's a link of my Grandfather - http://realcosanostra.wikia.com/wiki/James_Berardo


Interesting stuff i'd like you to keep me updated smile


Likewise. I'd love to hear what he's got that got me no other results on Google web, books or news archives.


Well, Like I said. We are in the middle of it. I have already met him and talked about the whole Book. I've read one of his book's - Mafia Brotherhoods.


Out of interest did you and the guy writing the book create that website ? Just wondering because there's only 9 pages on it.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/21/12 08:15 AM

Originally Posted By: ht2
Originally Posted By: Toodoped
First Vincent Mangano was secretly controlled by Luciano,his whole Mangano family was controled by Luciano and Mangano knew this and he had to keep quiet anyway,second...you wanna say that when Gambino was on the commision table his vote was counted the same as others?!?!?!? rolleyes...plus Bonanno in his book told lies about Luciano,doesnt that tell you something?!even on the Bonanno interview his a little bit critical at Luciano

I believe this also. Anastasia was regularly associating with members of Luciano's inner circle (Joe Adonis, Costello etc.) and there are reports that this was a source of arguments, but Mangano was powerless to do anything about it. On an older thread someone described Luciano as "first among equals". As leader of the most powerful family with syndicate ties to non italian gangsters, Luciano held sway over the other bosses.


Absolutely not true! As I said earlier, Luciano was NOT a boss of bosses. Not even technically speaking. He did not held sway over the other bosses in any way. I´m amazed over how so many people seems to think that. I have explained, perhaps in an inept way, how the legend and the myth of Luciano being some kind of a superboss got started. Get it out of your system guys. Luciano was (as you say) "first among equals" but nothing else above that. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

If I´m wrong then prove me wrong. But don´t copy and paste articles found on Wiki, or any articles written by Joe Schmuck posting on forums on the internet!
Posted By: ht2

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/21/12 08:57 AM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Absolutely not true! As I said earlier, Luciano was NOT a boss of bosses. Not even technically speaking. He did not held sway over the other bosses in any way. I´m amazed over how so many people seems to think that. I have explained, perhaps in an inept way, how the legend and the myth of Luciano being some kind of a superboss got started. Get it out of your system guys. Luciano was (as you say) "first among equals" but nothing else above that. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

If I´m wrong then prove me wrong. But don´t copy and paste articles found on Wiki, or any articles written by Joe Schmuck posting on forums on the internet!


Lol ok if you say so. I don't think I have any proof, probably mostly circumstantial and personal opinion. You probably agree he was the most powerful and feared? That alone would give him a leg up over the others. For example, I doubt someone like Profaci could organize syndicate meetings from Havana, Cuba. As far as his influence over Mangano, I think Luciano used Adonis in some mysterious way. Anastasia was Adonis' lapdog for many years prior to becoming boss.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/21/12 02:20 PM

LOL yo HarryKnuckles calm down man i dont know what your problem is?maybe you knew Luciano personaly lol maybe you have somethin against Luciano(f***ed someones grandmother and stuff)everybody has a reason but since you get too much excited over this you must be at least 20-28 years old.so my point is this we all read books,watch doc's,read articles from mob historians and news paper guys,we all get the same information one way or another,WE ARE ALL HERE TO EXCHANGE THOUGHTS not to fight about it...so pls calm down,ok you are right..."Now go home and get your f****n' shinebox" wink cool
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/21/12 04:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped
ok you are right


Yes I am and you know it.
You are obviously here to learn, sonny. It shows by the quality of your posts. And you´re wrong about we are all getting the same information. It´s clear that you are getting your information from all the wrong sources. But what the heck, if you have decided to get your "knowledge" from those dubious sources you are using, and dissing people with greater knowledge of the subject discussed on this forum, why should I care? That´s your problem. Not mine.
"Now, go and watch the latest doc on Luciano taking over the underworld based on the "Last Testament of Lucky Luciano". But beware, all your drooling may fuck your computer up".
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/21/12 05:08 PM

E G O!thats your problem man,The all mighty!So right now you are talking the same thing for all these ppl here who agree with me and i agree with them,and we are having nice conversation about things and nothing went wrong,dont you see that iam asking about a lot of things and no1 have any problem with that and i like to discuss it,except your majesty,right? cool
Posted By: Five_Felonies

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/21/12 05:20 PM

^^^ to be fair toodoped he only disagreed with you and then you pretty much insulted him.
Posted By: SC

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/21/12 05:34 PM

Take it down a notch and chill, boys!!
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/21/12 06:07 PM

Ok.im sorry for any inconvenience to you all and to HairyKnuckles!peace cool
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/21/12 06:27 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Originally Posted By: Toodoped
ok you are right


Yes I am and you know it.
You are obviously here to learn, sonny.


But I didn't do nothin' ! cry
Posted By: Imamobguy

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/23/12 08:25 PM

@ HairyKnuckles - Luciano was basically Boss of all Bosses he proved if anyone challenged him in anyway they would be killed. I liked Luciano because he didnt flash himself saying he was the ultimate boss everybody just knew it. Luciano controlled The Commission and to control La Cosa Nostra you need to control The Commission.

@ Carmel - No I didnt write that abotu my Grandfather, I was e-mailed about it and I had a look.
Posted By: Camarel

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/23/12 10:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Imamobguy
@ HairyKnuckles - Luciano was basically Boss of all Bosses he proved if anyone challenged him in anyway they would be killed. I liked Luciano because he didnt flash himself saying he was the ultimate boss everybody just knew it. Luciano controlled The Commission and to control La Cosa Nostra you need to control The Commission.

@ Carmel - No I didnt write that abotu my Grandfather, I was e-mailed about it and I had a look.


Cool. About Luciano what do you mean he proved it i'm not disagreeing with you id like some examples though.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/25/12 11:27 AM

Heres a part from a story about the Genovese rise up and the killing of Moretti,by Thom L.Jones...

Willie lay in quiet repose on the black and white lino floor. His left arm was crooked, thick, ham fist holding onto his heart long stilled; his ankles neatly crossed, a hint of sock showing, his eyes closed to the violence of that final moment, as his killers shot him, face on, a mark of respect- he had the right to see what was happening- the blood pooling out from under his shattered head, one of those awful ties, soaked in red, crumpled over the shoulder of his open jacket. They killed him with respect because it was to be seen as an act of pity, putting a sick lion to sleep. It wasn't of course. Imprudent as he may have been, Willie died to satisfy ambition, or maybe revenge, rather than to ameliorate a sad case of loose lips.

The cops never caught the guys who did it, which in mob killings is almost a given. They found a couple of fedoras, carelessly left on tables by the gang, and one of them was traced to a dry cleaners on 6th Avenue in Manhattan, which interestingly enough, lay just across the street from the apartment of the brother of one John 'Johnny Roberts' Robilotto, a guy well know to the cops.

Forty seven year old Johnny Roberts was originally sponsored into the Luciano organization by Tony Bender, a shifty, double-dealing crew boss, close to Vito Genovese, but Costello vetoed him on the grounds his brother was a cop. Albert Anastasia took a liking to him and worked him into his own family. Johnny was therefore a big supporter of Big Al; probably when Al said 'jump' Johnny would have said 'how high?'

In due course, the police arrested one Joseph Li Calsi and charged him and Robilotto, but the evidence against them didn't stack up, and they were subsequently released. So did Johnny kill Willie and if so, why would Albert A. sanction this? He was supposedly a close friend and ally of Frank Costello, hated Genovese with a vengeance and logically would have done nothing to help him in his attempt to dethrone Frank, which the killing of Moretti would surely have helped along.

But Al had gone to all that trouble to establish an alibi so must have known what was going down that morning. Did 'The Commission' ratify it, as has been supposed. Who knows? Maybe they did, maybe not. If they did, then surely Frank Costello had to be one who voted against the motion, but got lost in the numbers.

It's complicated, as are most mob politics. Everyone involved is long dead and the mob don't keep minutes, so all we have is hypothesis, a dangerous quicksand to navigate when dealing with Cosa Nostra lore.

Some sources claim there was an 'open' contract out on Willie, so anyone could kill him if and when the opportunity arose. But for Anastasia to go to the trouble arranging that alibi, indicates that he knew the killing was going down that morning.

Did Al hope to move in and take over Willie's very lucrative operations. Hardly. There's was Willie's brother Salavator 'Solly' the right bower, to contend with and 'Johnny Caboos' the left bower, Willie's trusted number two. Both tough guys, and don't forget the heavy hitters in the crew who respected and supported the boss. How would they react? Another theory that went around, was that Anastasia, worried about Moretti's behaviour insofar as it might impact on his own safety, had him killed before Willie killed him. But why would Willie lend a guy his driver, then kill him?

and a another interesting part...

The place where Willie got whacked is still a place where you can go to eat. The building, on the corner of Palisade and Marion Avenue, was bought and renovated by the Esposito family from Amalfi, Italy, who turned it, sometime in the 1980's, into the Villa Amalfi, one of the better Italian restaurants in this part of New Jersey. There's music and good food, friendly service and the only thing that gets whacked there to-day is the steak.
Posted By: danielperrygin

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/25/12 02:07 PM

If it wasnt for Lucky Vito would have never even been an after thought.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/25/12 02:34 PM

Heres this part of a story(i dont know how true this really is but its inetersting to read)that i found it on crimerack.com from the "Vito Genovese Case File"...

Genovese preyed on small store owners and pushcart peddlers, selling them protection, stealing, and extorting. In 1917, he met a thief who was as cunning and crafty as himself, Charles “Lucky” Luciano. Luciano was seemingly smarter than Genovese, or Genovese let Luciano think so.
He became Luciano’s lieutenant and together both young men took up armed robbery and burglary. While going to meet Luciano one day in 1917, before committing a planned armed robbery, Genovese was stopped by a suspicious patrolman who frisked him and found a loaded revolver in his coat. He was arrested and given sixty days in the workhouse for carrying a concealed weapon.
Genovese blamed Luciano for this first of arrests, believing either that Luciano had informed on him so that he himself could avoid an impending arrest for fencing stolen goods, or because Luciano did nothing to get Genovese out of the workhouse, even though he had earlier promised his lieutenant to get him a lawyer and pay all fines if he should get into trouble.
At the time, Luciano visited Genovese in the workhouse and pleaded poverty. Genovese served every day of his sentence. Upon his release, however, Genovese went back to work for Luciano. He was arrested in 1918, again for carrying a concealed weapon. This time he paid a $250 fine.
He and Luciano were by then thriving with their small-time rackets, as lieutenants of gang boss Jacob “Little Augie” Orgen. At first, Luciano and Genovese, along with Joe Adonis, Albert Anastasia, and others, concentrated on establishing a number of cheap brothels in Brooklyn and later Manhattan

and i find this a little bit funny..

Vito Genovese died in the Springfield (Illinois) Prison hospital of a heart attack on February 14, 1969.
Only relatives and a few lower echelon mobsters attended his funeral services. None of the bosses of the national crime syndicate made appearances. When Chicago boss Tony Accardo was asked why he had not attended Genovese’s funeral, he replied: “That guy? Hell, I didn’t even send a card.”
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/25/12 03:31 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
The chairman´s position fell on Vincent Mangano because of his superior age.


According to WIKIPEDIA Tommy Gagliano was born in 1884, which would make him 4 years older than Mangano.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/25/12 06:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
The chairman´s position fell on Vincent Mangano because of his superior age.


According to WIKIPEDIA Tommy Gagliano was born in 1884, which would make him 4 years older than Mangano.


Yes you are correct, Sonny. Nevertheless, Mangano was selected chairman.
Posted By: ht2

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/25/12 06:40 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
The chairman´s position fell on Vincent Mangano because of his superior age.


According to WIKIPEDIA Tommy Gagliano was born in 1884, which would make him 4 years older than Mangano.


Yes you are correct, Sonny. Nevertheless, Mangano was selected chairman.


Speaking of Gagliano, HK is there any proof he was alive beyond early 1930's? The last reported sighting was by Joe Valachi at his wedding in 1932.

http://www.americanmafia.com/Allan_May_6-19-00.html
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/25/12 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: ht2


Speaking of Gagliano, HK is there any proof he was alive beyond early 1930's? The last reported sighting was by Joe Valachi at his wedding in 1932.

http://www.americanmafia.com/Allan_May_6-19-00.html



Yes, his obituary appeared in New York Times, Feb 17,18 and 19 in 1951. I can´t copy and paste it but if you have access to old NY Times articles and obituaries, you will be able to see it.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/26/12 10:17 AM

Part from an article written by Tim Newark,bout WWII...

Talking to Sicilians in Palermo you soon get a clear picture of how they view their own history. They remember the delight of their parents being liberated by the Allies from Fascist rule and German occupation. They recall the pleasure of being given sweets and food by American soldiers—and wearing American clothes sold in local markets for years afterwards. But when you talk to them about the Mafia and the Allies, they have one certain vision of what happened.
“They make the same mistake, they make all the time,” says one Palermo resident, whose parents saw the bombs rain down on their city. “They made a deal with the bad guys and then we got stuck with the Mafia back in control.”

But is this true?
There are many anecdotes that support the notion that the US did strike a deal with the Mafia to help them conquer Sicily. The most famous story is that Allied troops and tanks rolled into Sicily in 1943 carrying yellow flags emblazoned with the letter ‘L’. The ‘L’ represented the infamous mobster ‘Lucky’ Luciano.
From his Great Meadow prison cell in New York State, Luciano had struck a devil’s deal with the US government to help them secure New York’s docks from Nazi or Fascist sabotage. As an extension of this pact, it is said, not a single shot was fired by Italian troops at the invading Americans in Sicily.
Despite Mussolini’s successful crusade against the Mafia, in the 1940s, the Mafia still commanded tremendous influence in Europe and America. As a result, the Allies needed the Mafia. Arguably, the US wartime government could not have controlled the vital New York docks without the assistance of the Mob. The Mafia even believed it could alter the course of the war by assassinating Hitler and his top henchmen.
To uncover the truth of these remarkable claims, I have explored archives in London, Washington and New York, analysing first–hand intelligence reports made by Allied agents dealing with the Mafia on a day-to-day basis. Many of these reports have never been published before or cited in Mafia literature. I have visited the sites of notorious Mafia crimes and report the testimony of people who were there at the time—including those recorded in the secret Herlands report which remained top secret for decades after the events described. These accounts bring to life one of the most important – and hitherto unexplored – areas of the Allied war in Europe.
Some of the players in the game are known. Allied connections with the Mafia undeniably reached the highest level. Recommendations to work alongside mobsters were put before senior US generals and politicians—including supreme commander Dwight Eisenhower. Even war leaders Churchill and Roosevelt were keen to exploit Italian-American connections. Notorious gangsters Lucky Luciano, Meyer Lansky, Frank Costello, and Vito Genovese all played their part in the war on Hitler and Mussolini, mixing easily with senior military officials on both sides.
Posted By: danielperrygin

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/26/12 07:46 PM

I think Joe Bonanno desnt get his due.i this, ive read many times he is the one who was came to by lansky lucky and co to actually make this overseas connections but he stepped aside in order to make Lucky look as valuable as possible to th govt in hopes of springing him from the joint, it worked to but not like any of them planned.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/26/12 09:33 PM

Toddo, I don´t konow, but I think you missed out on the vital parts of the article. Here´s another one by Tim Newark:

"One of the great conspiracy theories of the Second World War is that the ­Americans struck a deal with Mafia mobsters to ­conquer Sicily. Tim Newark exposes the truth behind this notorious story of Mafia collaboration."

"Despite Mussolini’s successful crusade against the Mafia in the 1920s, it survived in Sicily and twenty years later Sicilian gangsters commanded tremendous influence in Europe and America. After Pearl Harbor and Germany and Italy’s declaration of war on the US in December 1941, there were huge fears about an attack on America’s Eastern seaboard. To protect New York and its docks, US government security agencies were anxious to talk to anyone who might help including the Mafia.

There are many anecdotes that support the notion that the US struck a deal with the Mafia to help them conquer Sicily. The most famous is that Allied troops and tanks rolled into Sicily in 1943 bearing yellow flags emblazoned with the letter ‘L’. The ‘L’ stood for Sicilian-born gangster Charles ‘Lucky’ Luciano – king of the New York underworld in the 1930s. Luciano was in prison in New York State in 1942, but he still exerted tremendous influence. It is often claimed that, as a result of the deal he made with the US government to secure New York’s docks from Nazi or Fascist sabotage not a single shot was fired by Italian troops at the invading Americans in Sicily.

The Second World War still casts shadows on the streets of Palermo. Near the harbour, around Piazza Fonderia, you can see the bomb shattered remains of buildings hit by the Allies in preparation for their invasion of the island. Along the Via Roma, you can step into the foyer of the Grand Hotel Et Des Palmes, little changed in its marble and mirrored luxury since Luciano stayed there in 1946, after being deported from the United States for mysterious wartime deals.

Sicilians remember the delight of their parents at being liberated from Fascist rule and German occupation by the Allies in 1943. But they have a different view of what happened between the Mafia and the Allies: ‘They made a deal with the bad guys and then we got stuck with the Mafia back in control’ said one Palermo resident, whose parents saw the bombs rain down on their city. But how true is this claim?

The collaboration between the US government and the underworld to defend America’s East Coast against sabotage is recorded in the Herlands report of 1954. This was an investigation carried out at the direction of the Governor of New York Thomas E. Dewey to record the exact detail of the contact between US Naval Intelligence and New York’s Mafia mobsters.

The US Navy were not happy with its findings, however, and the report remained secret for many decades afterwards. It is still unpublished.

It was the job of Naval Intelligence to get a grip on the security situation in the New York docks. Lieutenant Commander Charles Radcliffe Haffenden was put in charge of the Third Naval District’s investigations section, based in downtown Manhattan. As he expressed it:

I’ll talk to anybody, a priest, a bank manager, a gangster, the devil himself, if I can get the information I need. This is a war. American lives are at stake.

But initial attempts were scorned by the underworld who controlled the docks. Luciano’s fellow mobster Meyer Lansky, recalled:

Everybody in New York was laughing at the way those naïve Navy agents were going around the docks. They went up to men working in the area and talked out of the corner of their mouths like they had seen in the movies, asking about spies.

Luciano was later quoted on the subject:

As far as Haffenden was concerned, he didn’t know nothin’ that was goin’ on except that he was sittin’ there with his mouth open, prayin’ I would say yes and help his whole department…

It took a spectacular disaster to get both sides talking seriously about protecting America’s East Coast and this happened on the afternoon of February 9th, 1942. While it was in the process of being converted into a troopship, the luxury ocean liner, Normandie, mysteriously burst into flames with 1,500 sailors and civilians on board. All but one escaped but 128 were injured and by the next day it was a smoking hulk. In his report, twelve years later, William B. Herlands, Commissioner of Investigation, made the case f­or the US government talking to top criminals:

The Intelligence authorities were greatly concerned with the problems of sabotage and espionage ... Suspicions were rife with respect to the leaking of information about convoy movements. The Normandie, which was being converted to war use as the Navy auxiliary Lafayette, had burned at the pier in the North River, New York City. Sabotage was suspected.

It was a bitter blow to the American war effort – but it pushed Lucky Luciano, Lansky, and Naval Intelligence together. Some time between May 15th and June 4th, 1942, Meyer Lansky and a lawyer visited Luciano in prison to discuss working with Naval Intelligence. Luciano later claimed that Haffenden was there also, and that he spoke to him directly. Having presented Luciano with a hamper of food containing, among other things, his favourite kosher green pickles, Lansky explained that by co-operating with Naval intelligence, Lucky might well get a reduction of his sentence. Otherwise he would have to wait until 1956 for his first chance of parole. Luciano said he was happy to help the government. He knew the important people on the waterfront and if he asked them to get interested in the war effort – then they would.

The Mafia network of enforcers and informers was so effective that, Lansky claimed, it was they who first got information about Operation Pastorius – the landing of German agents by submarine at Long Island in June 1942. Lansky said he was approached by the brother of an Italian fisherman who’d seen the four agents clamber out of the U-boat and row ashore. He then told Haffenden who passed on the information to the FBI.

Associates who owned restaurants in Yorkville were persuaded to hire German-speaking Navy agents as waiters to spy on Nazi-sympathizers in New York. So intimate did the relationship between Lansky and Haffenden become that Navy agents apparently ended up servicing Mafia-run vending machines in clubs. ‘They handed over the money they collected and were always honest in their dealings’ recalled Lansky. ‘I think this must be the only time the US Navy ever directly helped the Mafia.’

There is no doubt that Luciano, Lansky, and their associates provided vital assistance that kept the East Coast docks working efficiently. They formed a frontline of intelligence against any agents sent by the Axis to sabotage Allied shipping. The end result was that Allied convoys could carry on their vital job of moving soldiers and supplies to Europe to fight the war.

However, the Herlands report does not admit that this was achieved by gangsters using violence and illegal methods. This detail is left to the personal memoirs of Luciano and Lansky. Instead the report concluded:

No practical purpose would be served by debating the technical scope of Luciano’s aid to the war effort ... Over and beyond any precise rating of the contribution is the crystal-clear fact that Luciano and his associates and contacts during a period when ‘the outcome of the war appeared extremely grave,’ were responsible for a wide range of services which were considered ‘useful to the navy’.

In February 1943, Luciano hoped to capitalize on his contribution to the war effort. However, Philip J. McCook, the judge who had originally sentenced Luciano in 1936 to 30-50 years for organizing prostitution, refused to modify his sentence now. The government wanted to keep him in prison for the moment. The war was not over. Besides, if he had been released he would have been deported immediately to Italy. But what else could he and the Mafia do for the government?

Operation Husky, the Allied invasion of Sicily, homeland of the Mafia, commenced on the night of July 9th/10th, 1943. A vast Allied armada of 2,500 vessels surged towards the south-eastern tip of Sicily bearing 181,000 men of the US Seventh Army and Montgomery’s British and Canadian Eighth Army.

A report of April 9th, 1943, the Special Military Plan for Psychological Warfare in Sicily, prepared by the Joint Staff Planners for the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, who approved it on April 15th, had described the

Establishment of contact and communications with the leaders of separatist nuclei, disaffected workers, and clandestine radical groups, e.g., the Mafia, and giving them every possible aid.

That included 'Smuggling of arms and munitions to those elements', the Organization and supply of guerrilla bands', and the 'Provisioning of active members of such groups and their families.' The JSP, it appears, was strongly recommending the arming of the Sicilian Mafiosi and would encourage them to carry out sabotage on bridges, roads and military installations. In retrospect, it is a sensational admission, but at the time the Mafia were considered just another dissident element.

Among the first waves of assault troops that hit the beaches was a New York Naval Intelligence team consisting of Lieutenants Anthony Marsloe, Paul Alfieri, Joachim Titolo and Ensign James Murray. They were armed with all the information they had gathered from Luciano and his mobsters and put it to use straight away. In the words of Alfieri:

One of the most important plans, was to contact persons who had been deported for any crime from the United States to their homeland in Sicily, and one of my first successes after landing at Licata was in connection with this, where I made beneficial contact with numerous persons who had been deported … They were extremely cooperative and helpful because they spoke both the dialect of that region and also some English.

One of Alfieri’s first contacts on landing was a man whom, at the age of sixteen, Luciano had saved from the electric chair after he fatally shot a policeman on the Lower East Side. Following the intervention of the boy’s mother, who was a cousin of Luciano, the Mafia boss sent him out of New York via Canada to Sicily. He had become the head of his local mafia and kept up with other criminals deported from the US. At Alfieri’s request, the local Mafioso attacked the headquarters of the Italian naval command. This was hidden in a holiday villa set back from the beach. The German guards were killed and Alfieri was able to enter and blow open a safe. In it were plans outlining German and Italian defences on the island, plus their radio code-books. It also contained information on the Axis naval forces throughout the Mediterranean. Map overlays detailed marine minefields and revealed safe routes through them. It was a tremendous prize that would save many Allied lives. For this Mafia-aided act, Alfieri was later awarded the Legion of Merit.

Such episodes have helped fuel the idea that the Mafia helped the Americans conquer the western part of Sicily. The reality is far less impressive when it came to its deployment in the rest of the Sicilian war zone. The contribution of the four US Naval Intelligence agents, though useful, was tiny and cannot be said to have had any major impact on the rest of the operation. The hundreds of pages of subsequent witness interviews aired by the Herlands investigation has swollen this minor contribution out of all proportion to any other intelligence aspect of the campaign. By far the larger contribution was provided by the US Army Counter-Intelligence Corps, who had eighty agents on the ground throughout the fighting. However, there is no evidence whatsoever of any kind of alliance between them and the Mafia in Sicily before or during the campaign.

The most notorious story about an alliance between the Mafia and US forces is told by the socialist politician and journalist Michele Pantaleone and retold in English by Norman Lewis. It centres on the town of Villalba in central Sicily near Monte Cammarata, near where, according to Pantaleone, German and Italian resistance to the American advance was concentrated. On the slopes of the Cammarata, Axis infantry and a detachment of German tanks commanded the road leading north to Palermo, well placed to blow-up the American convoy heading towards them. The towns of Mussomeli, lay to the south-east, and Villalba, to the east.

On July 14th, four days after the Allied landings, an American fighter plane flew over Villalba. ‘The aircraft dipped so low,’ wrote Pantaleone, ‘that it almost grazed the roof-tops and a strange banner or pennant could be seen fluttering from the side of its cockpit. The pennant was made of a yellowish-gold cloth and there was a large black ‘L’ carefully drawn in the middle.’

The aircraft then dropped a bag near a farmhouse belonging to the sixty-six-year-old Don Calogero Vizzini – Don Calo – an influential Mafioso in the region. The bag was recovered by one of Don Calo’s servants, who took it to his master. Inside was ‘a foulard handkerchief which looked as if it was made of gold, exactly the same colour as the cloth hanging from the aeroplane.’

The silk handkerchief was a traditional Mafia method of contact. On this one the black ‘L’ stood for Lucky Luciano. In response, Don Calo wrote a coded letter to Giuseppe Genco Russo, the second most important Mafioso in the area, telling Russo to do everything he could to make the Americans happy and secure.

Five days later, on July 20th, three US tanks entered the town of Villalba. According to the Pantaleone-Lewis account, one of them flew a yellow flag with the black ‘L’ from its turret. When the tanks stopped in the town square, an American officer climbed out of one and, in the local Sicilian dialect, asked for Don Calo. In due course, the Don turned up, accompanied by one of his nephews who had just returned from America, and, without a word, handed over his yellow flag to the American officer.

The next day, on the heights around Monte Cammarata, where the Axis commander, Lieutenant Colonel Salemi, hoped to pulverize the Americans, two thirds of his troops had deserted. Left alone, the remaining Germans decided to withdraw in their tanks.

Some of the Italian troops later claimed they had been approached by Mafia agents in the night who told them they were in a hopeless situation and should leave. They offered the soldiers civilian clothes and any other help to go home to their families. The following day, Colonel Salemi, was intercepted by the Mafia and taken prisoner to the town hall in Mussomeli. The battle of Cammarata had been won apparently without a shot being fired thanks to the intervention of the Mafia.

The US soldiers at Villalba who took Don Calo away with them in their tank were most likely Counter Intelligence Corps (CIC) officers, operating in advance of the main troop formations. But the official CIC history of the campaign in Sicily, produced in the early 1950s, does not mention the Mafia and does not mention the incident at Villalba at all.

Michele Pantaleone is the main source for the Luciano-Vizzini story and he, as an enemy of Dan Calo, is a very biased source. Wartime OSS documents reveal that his family was in dispute with the Vizzini clan over a local property issue and this – along with him being a Communist and political rival of Vizzini – casts doubt on his view of events. And yet it is his seductive tale of Don Calo that has been endlessly repeated. The fact is, it appears, it never actually happened.

According to US field reports, there was no major Axis position on the northern slopes of Monte Cammarata that could have provided any hindrance to the American advance to Palermo. That the US visit to Villalba on July 20th may have been purely routine, and had nothing at all to do with a bigger plot to use the Mafia in their campaign, is further suggested by an account of the day’s events by Luigi Lumia, a former mayor of Villalba, recorded in his later history of the town.

At about 2 o’clock in the afternoon of July 20th, three US tanks rolled into the town of Villalba. Trying to make themselves heard above the squeals of delight from the town’s children, soldiers appeared from the turret of the tanks asking where the person in charge could be found—il capo del paese. Not long after, a procession of people with Calogero Vizzini at the helm made its way towards the tanks chanting: ‘Long Live America’, ‘Long Live the Mafia’, ‘Long Live Don Calo’. The Americans asked whether there were any German troops in the area and on hearing that there weren’t, they took il capo del paese [Don Calo] on board the tank together with Damiano Lumia who was acting as his interpreter.
The two men were then taken to Turrume-Tudia and questioned by a US official in the presence of enemy soldiers. During the interrogation, it was revealed that an American jeep on patrol had come under fire a few days earlier at a road junction not far from the town. According to his interpreter, Don Calo told the American that the Italians had fled and the firefight had been caused by exploding ammunition. The Mafioso assured him they faced no local enemy, but this answer just annoyed the American interrogator.

According to Luigi Lumia, the Americans merely wanted to know what opposition they faced and certainly did not treat Don Calo with any respect. In fact, Don Calo was thoroughly embarrassed by the whole incident. There is no hint of any pre-arranged deal. So much for the great conspiracy.

Overall, the so-called devil’s pact with Luciano is a fascinating footnote in the history of the Second World War, but not a major scandal. The Allies did not get and did not need the help of the Mafia to win their campaign in Sicily. Far bigger powers of industrial organization, economic competence and military expertize defeated Axis forces – and the Mafia played no part in that.

Yet, by dismantling the Fascist hold on local rule, the Allies created a power vacuum that was soon filled by local Mafiosi. This was neither the fault nor the intention of the Allies; it was certainly not a pre-planned conspiracy among the Americans and British to resurrect the Mafia, which needed no such outside help. In fact, numerous reports testify to the Allied view that the Mafia was a criminal nuisance – Lord Rennell, who headed the civil affairs administration, and who took a tough line on law and order, strengthening the authority of the Carabineri, called them a virus that should be crushed. He was aware of the part played by the Mafia in local crime and worked hard to reduce the food shortages and black-market exploitation that made the mobsters rich in the immediate post-conflict period. It is true that some Allied officers exploited the situation and worked with the Mafia to divert Allied supplies onto the black market. Yet the early success of the imposition of law and order encouraged senior Mafiosi to pursue their grab for power through politics instead, which eventually allowed them to pose as a part of the Western strategy against Communism, and as effective enforcers for the conservative Christian Democratic Party, an alliance that endured for almost fifty years.

Meyer Lansky, reviewing this history, had his own take on the Mafia role. ‘If they had wanted to,’ he said in his memoirs, ‘the Mafia could have paralysed the [New York] dock area.’ He had asked Haffenden what would happen if there was a shutdown. ‘Without the supplies we’re sending to Russia and Britain,’ said the Naval Commander, ‘the war would go on a lot longer. It could even change the course of the war.’ ‘So,’ said Lansky ‘in the end the Mafia helped save the lives of Americans and of people in Europe.’

But it was thanks to the sacrifice of honest soldiers that the Allies won the war."

///Tim Newark is an established author and a heck of a researcher. You should grab his book, "Lucky Luciano, the real and the fake gangster". It´s a good read.

http://www.historytoday.com/tim-newark/pact-devil
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 06:46 AM

^^^ Thanx for this one,so after all the mob had its involvment in the war and the goverment had its secret plan..by the way ill order the book gotta go deeper in this things wink
Posted By: Camarel

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 08:14 AM

Thanks for the article Hairy very interesting .
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 08:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped
^^^ Thanx for this one,so after all the mob had its involvment in the war and the goverment had its secret plan..by the way ill order the book gotta go deeper in this things wink


Well no, according to the article and Newark´s research, the collaboration (or the alleged collaboration) with the US Army landing in Sicily, never materialized.

Cam, you´re welcome.
Posted By: danielperrygin

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 12:23 PM

Hairy do you believe Joe B played a big role in this?
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 01:57 PM

Originally Posted By: danielperrygin
Hairy do you believe Joe B played a big role in this?


I figure that the local Mafia in Sicily had some part in facilitating the US Army landing. They desperately needed to get rid of the fascists so the group could have been used by the American Army to conduct warfare with guerilla tactics prior to the landing. Not necessarily some big stuff, but small things that made the landing easier for the US Army. I´m no warfare expert, but using a friendly group for these kind of purposes, secretly within a country before invading it, sure helps the invadors. But I´m doubtful that any of the American Mafia bosses had any part of this. The Americans had secret agents operating in Sicily during the world War 2. Most likely (IF there was a collaboration between the American Army and the Sicilian Mafia) these agents instigated the use of the Mafia.
Posted By: DickNose_Moltasanti

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 02:55 PM

HK nice post btw how was breakfast?
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 03:08 PM

Originally Posted By: DickNose_Moltasanti
HK nice post btw how was breakfast?


My breakfast? Nice, I guess.
Wait a minute, DN, did you put your nose into my scrambled eggs?
lol

Yack!
sick
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 03:58 PM

so HairyKnuckles first you sad there was probably connection between the mob and the goverment but as you sad "it never materialized",but now you edited your post on so much negative opinion that there was nothing between them?!?!?!?!?!i mean common man....wait?!i dont understand?!?!plss explain rolleyes do you have any problems with your ego again?!imma psychiatrist,feel free!?i dont know how many articles i posted just to try and change your maind and i just hit into a wall,i even found an article from your famous writter Newark,bringin down your opinion and you sad something like "You missed the vital parts"....i mean common dude...is this your life?!?!?....dont get mad now just kidding wink.....plus i dont really bother cool
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 04:29 PM

There you deleted your post again!!!! lol lol lol kids!!!
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 04:31 PM

"so HairyKnuckles first you sad there was probably connection between the mob and the goverment but as you sad "it never materialized",but now you edited your post on so much negative opinion that there was nothing between them?!?!?!?!?!"

- I realized that I had misunderstood your post, that´s why I edited it.

"i mean common man....wait?!i dont understand?!?!plss explain do you have any problems with your ego again?!imma psychiatrist,feel free!?"

- Why are you bringing up my ego? What´s that got to do with all this?

"i dont know how many articles i posted just to try and change your maind and i just hit into a wall,i even found an article from your famous writter Newark,bringin down your opinion and you sad something like "You missed the vital parts"...."

- Well, read the long article I posted. It´s the same author who wrote the article you posted. But somehow, you left out the vital parts.

"i mean common dude...is this your life?!?!?....dont get mad now just kidding .....plus i dont really bother "

- What´s the matter with you dude?
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 04:32 PM

no conversation between you and me kid,i wanna stay on this forum for a while plsss....

"I realized that I had misunderstood your post, that´s why I edited it."....rrrrreeeeaaaalllyyyy???? shhh
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 04:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped
no conversation between you and me kid,


That´s perfectly fine with me...
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 05:03 PM

Now when the coast is clear.....little part from an previous article written by Tim Newark...

To uncover the truth of these remarkable claims, I have explored archives in London, Washington and New York, analysing first–hand intelligence reports made by Allied agents dealing with the Mafia on a day-to-day basis. Many of these reports have never been published before or cited in Mafia literature. I have visited the sites of notorious Mafia crimes and report the testimony of people who were there at the time—including those recorded in the secret Herlands report which remained top secret for decades after the events described. These accounts bring to life one of the most important – and hitherto unexplored – areas of the Allied war in Europe.

Some of the players in the game are known. Allied connections with the Mafia undeniably reached the highest level. Recommendations to work alongside mobsters were put before senior US generals and politicians—including supreme commander Dwight Eisenhower. Even war leaders Churchill and Roosevelt were keen to exploit Italian-American connections. Notorious gangsters Lucky Luciano, Meyer Lansky, Frank Costello, and Vito Genovese all played their part in the war on Hitler and Mussolini, mixing easily with senior military officials on both sides.

Some remarkable new characters also emerge. The implacable English Lord Rennell who took on the Mafiosi in their own realm. The humble US Sergeant Orange C Dickey who defied everyone—including his own superior officers—to arrest a top Mafioso. We see how Sicilian mobsters and bandits exploited the chaos of war to carve out an independent fiefdom for themselves in the Mediterranean.

Many of these tales have never been investigated or published before. In my book, for the first time, is a complete account that definitively answers one of the greatest mysteries of World War Two – did the Allies made a secret pact with the Mafia?



....and words from ppl who were there at the time(sorry i posted this in the documentaries post but what the hell)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euAvuTdu73E
Posted By: Camarel

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 06:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped
Now when the coast is clear.....little part from an previous article written by Tim Newark...

To uncover the truth of these remarkable claims, I have explored archives in London, Washington and New York, analysing first–hand intelligence reports made by Allied agents dealing with the Mafia on a day-to-day basis. Many of these reports have never been published before or cited in Mafia literature. I have visited the sites of notorious Mafia crimes and report the testimony of people who were there at the time—including those recorded in the secret Herlands report which remained top secret for decades after the events described. These accounts bring to life one of the most important – and hitherto unexplored – areas of the Allied war in Europe.

Some of the players in the game are known. Allied connections with the Mafia undeniably reached the highest level. Recommendations to work alongside mobsters were put before senior US generals and politicians—including supreme commander Dwight Eisenhower. Even war leaders Churchill and Roosevelt were keen to exploit Italian-American connections. Notorious gangsters Lucky Luciano, Meyer Lansky, Frank Costello, and Vito Genovese all played their part in the war on Hitler and Mussolini, mixing easily with senior military officials on both sides.

Some remarkable new characters also emerge. The implacable English Lord Rennell who took on the Mafiosi in their own realm. The humble US Sergeant Orange C Dickey who defied everyone—including his own superior officers—to arrest a top Mafioso. We see how Sicilian mobsters and bandits exploited the chaos of war to carve out an independent fiefdom for themselves in the Mediterranean.

Many of these tales have never been investigated or published before. In my book, for the first time, is a complete account that definitively answers one of the greatest mysteries of World War Two – did the Allies made a secret pact with the Mafia?



....and words from ppl who were there at the time(sorry i posted this in the documentaries post but what the hell)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euAvuTdu73E


Was the top Mafiosi Sergeant Dickey arrested Vito Genovese ?
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 06:11 PM

^^^ http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-kZmI...ese&f=false
Posted By: Camarel

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 06:14 PM



I thought it was just wasn't sure what the name of the guy that arrested him was.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/27/12 09:21 PM

Heres part from an story written by Tim Newark,about Vito/Dickey situation....

A few hours after the arrest of Genovese, Nicola Cutuli arrived at the AMG offices in Naples. He was Questore of Rome, the most senior investigative police officer in the country. He demanded that Genovese be released into his custody and taken to Rome. The Americans refused. Later, CID officers found a sheet of paper with Cutuli's name on it in Genovese's apartment.

While Dickey proceeded with the paperwork of his arrest, an informant in Nola gave him a copy of a book entitled Gang Rule in New York City, by Craig Thompson and Raymond Allen, published in 1940. In the book, he found a photograph of Genovese and it identified him as a former gangster associate of Lucky Luciano. Dickey showed his prisoner the picture.

"Sure," said Genovese, "that's me when I was in New York City."

When Dickey asked him about running the black market in Italy, he denied some of the charges but accepted others. Dickey then contacted the FBI and they informed him that Genovese was wanted for questioning over a murder in New York.

Coincidentally, earlier in the month, a New York newspaper report Aug. 9, 1944, said: "The whereabouts of all six [wanted for the murder of Ferdinand Boccia] were said to be unknown but an interesting sidelight on Genovese was that he was reported recently to have been in Italy acting as an interpreter for the Allied Military Government there."

"The Army officials are going to bring him back," said Brooklyn D.A. Thomas Hughes. "How or when he will brought back I cannot say."

With Genovese safely under arrest, Dickey searched Genovese's apartment in Nola and found a bundle of documents. "Among these papers," remembered Dickey, "there was a small paper on which was written a number, easily identified as the number of a U.S. Army truck. Beneath this number was written, "The Shed." In a previous case I had learned that the shed was a large underground storeroom and was used as a storage place for contraband wheat."

Dickey then went to Genovese's apartment in Naples where he found large quantities of PX supplies, such as soap, candy bars and cigarettes. He also found a powerful radio receiver—used for receiving information on the arrival of valuable contraband. Among the documents found in Genovese's apartments were several business cards and other papers that linked him to prominent businessmen in the area as well as judges, the town mayor of Nola, the president of the Bank of Naples, and AMG officers.

There were nine official AMG travel passes, several just made out to the bearer—a sign of Genovese's influence within AMG. They even entitled the bearer to fill up with American gas. One was made out to a local leading dealer in olive oil. Two papers signed by AMG officers entitled Genovese to receive American food supplies—in violation of Army regulations. One business card belonged to Innocenza Monterisi, a mistress of Genovese who, according to Dickey, also supplied women for Allied officers.

But nowhere was found any significant stash of money. Dickey had his suspicions about a safe deposit vault in Banco del Lavoro in Nola. Genovese denied having a vault or a key for it. The bank records said the vault belonged to the gangster, but despite going before a Tribunal in Naples, a court order was refused to Dickey to force its opening. Dickey knew that one of Genovese's henchmen had visited it on the day he was arrested. A U.S. Army seal was put on the vault to prevent its opening.
Genovese was still in military custody in November, as Dickey waited for an arrest warrant to arrive for him from the United States. But no one wanted to make a decision on what to do with him. There was no suggestion even of putting him on trial for black market charges in Italy.
"At this time," said Dickey, "the Army did not seem very interested in returning this man to the States, and I was told that I was 'on my own, to do anything I cared to.'" It was an extraordinary situation, but clearly Genovese's associates in and outside the U.S. Army were working their influence as best they could and stopped any fast action on Genovese in the hope that Dickey might get fed up with the procedure and let him go.
That this might be the tactics of very highly placed U.S. officers was demonstrated when Dickey visited Rome to talk to Col. Charles Poletti, then commissioner of Allied Military Government in Italy. "I wanted him to tell me whether I should try him by civilian authorities," said Dickey, "whether Allied Military Government intends to try him, or whether the U.S. Army has control, or what I should do with him."
Posted By: danielperrygin

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/28/12 01:20 AM

Genovese time in Italy fasinates me, the movie Lucky Luciano goes into it a little bit, its a great movie.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/28/12 11:59 AM

Originally Posted By: danielperrygin
Genovese time in Italy fasinates me, the movie Lucky Luciano goes into it a little bit, its a great movie.


Yes a lot of thing were happening the time Genovese was in Italy,and i think that while Vito in Italy,he was bigger there than in the US,he was playin with the fascist and after that he was playin the allies..cool stuff,btw the Luciano movie is good but its a little bit slow,everytime i watch it i fall asleep cool
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 08/28/12 05:08 PM

Heres another small part from the previous story,its about the Genovese stay in Italy...

As the Allies entered Vito Genovese's realm in Nola, near Naples, in the autumn of 1943, he offered to help them as translator and guide to the region. U.S. Major E.N. Holmgreen, the civil affairs officer in Nola, was so impressed with Vito Genovese that he wrote him a letter of recommendation on Nov. 8, 1943.
"The bearer [of the letter], Vito Genovese," wrote Holmgreen, "is an American citizen. When the undersigned arrived at Nola District as CAO [civil affairs officer], Mr. Genovese met me and acted as my interpreter for over a month. He would accept no pay; paid his own expenses; worked day and night and rendered most valuable assistance to the Allied Military Government. This statement is freely made in an effort to express my appreciation for the unselfish services of this man."
That Genovese could afford to appear unselfish is no big surprise. He knew he had just struck a new criminal gold mine—the black market in American military goods. The FBI later quoted a U.S. attorney's report on his activities during this period.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Luciano vs. Genovese - 09/01/12 10:35 AM

Interesting small part's from an article on DarkPolitics.com...

THE OSS: FORERUNNER TO THE CIA. The “multinational” business of drug trafficking can be traced back to the 1940s, even before the CIA was created following World War II. Before the creation of the CIA in 1947, Allen Dulles assembled the Flying Tigers, an inner clique within the Office of Strategic Services (OSS). Dulles had close ties with Eastern billionaire families, and he was able to run clandestine operations out of the White House.

The OSS-mafia alliance emerged soon after the agency was formed. The OSS was first headed by Earl Brennan who helped plan the Allied invasion of Sicily and Italy in World War II. During the war, He had close ties with the head of the Vatican’s Vessel Operation, Monsignor Giovanni Batista Montini who was also an aid to Pope Pius XII. Montini suggested that Brennan recruit Italian exiles such as Masons business leaders, and mafia members to corroborate with the Allies in their invasion. In 1963, Montini become Pope Paul VI.


After spending 10 years of a 30-to-50 year sentence in prison for running a prostitution ring, New York’s mafia leader Lucky Luciano given clemency and released from Albany’s Great Meadows Prison in 1946. In exchange, he promised to cooperate with American authorities. He returned to Italy and was able to build a black market which had been abandoned by the Genovese family. He then expanded his operations by forging close ties with the Marseilles syndicate. He imported raw opium from the Middle East and processed it in laboratories in Italy. Luciano’s top deputy was Meyer Lansky who had first contacted Cuban dictator Fulgencio Batista. Luciano initially purchased 200 kilos of heroin and shipped it on to Cuba. Lansky was given a monopoly on Cuba’s gambling operations plus assurances that Sicilian heroin could be shipped from Marseilles to Havana and on to the United States. In return Batista and his assistants received half the profits from the casinos. Lansky and Luciano chose Sicilian-born Santos Trafficante of Florida to run the Cuban gambling and drug business. Luciano made sure that Havana’s prostitutes were addicted to heroin and paid them with diluted forms of the drugs as well.



The Italian mafia continued to maintain a stronghold in the United States. In the 1950s, the CIA once again turned to the mafia to foil communism — this time in Cuba. The very year that the right wing Batista government was overthrown, Operation 40 was organized as an assassination unit to kill Fidel Castro. Organized crime leaders Santo Trafficante and John Roselli, with the knowledge of Vice President Nixon, were heavily involved in importing drugs from Laos. After the failure at the Bay of Pigs two years later, Operation 40 was replaced by Operation Mongoose, a larger scale paramilitary organization. Its purpose was also to overthrow the Castro regime. The CIA officials who directed Operation Mongoose were Theodore Shackley and Thomas Clines. Felix Rodriguez, a Cuban refugee, was hired to be a member of a special assassination team. Rodriguez worked under Shackley in Miami, Florida. After the Bay of Pigs fiasco, dozens of anti-Castro sympathizers were indicted for drug trafficking.


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