How do we know the Genovese are so powerful?

The topic of the outfit being an enigma got me thinking. How do we know the Genovese are the most powerful family in the US?

Not starting a "i don't believe it" thread. I think they are. Just was interested to look at it from a different perspective. Perhaps to see why we know so little about the outfit. What's different?

How do we know so much about the Genovese? How do we know they are so powerful? Where does the info come from?

Thoughts?

its what fbi says

The Genovese family is now dominant. They remain a very powerful group. The Gambinos have dropped to Number 2. In the Genovese family, you really don't have that many defectors. They're still very entrenched in the unions and construction industry."
- Jack Garcia, former FBI agent (2011)

"The Genovese family is a very, very strong family. They're the most efficient family because they're so secretive. People within the family don't even know who each other are. They are very disciplined in their criminal plots and they keep their hit teams small. Infilatration by law enforcement is very difficult. They continue to use violence to ensure compliance. We haven't had widespread disruption of the Genoveses like we had with the other families. Gigante's secrecy permeated the ranks and it still exists. If someone in the Genovese family slips up, they're dead before you know it. - Dave Shafer, Head of FBI Organized Crime Program (2009)

The crime family formed 80 years ago and named after Vito Genovese has endured like no other.
- NY Daily News article (2009)

"The Genovese family is the most secretive, criminally diverse, and powerful family in the country. Their power stems from control of unions and major industries."
- Michael Campi, FBI Organized Crime Dept. (2006)

"The Genovese crime family is still the best organized and has the deepest bench."
- Daniel Castleman, Chief of Investigations - Manhattan District (2006)

"The (Genovese family's) members and rackets surpass all others."
- Jerry Capeci, Gangland News columnist (2006)

"The Genovese crime family is the the most organized, most powerful, largest organized-crime family existing today."
- Eric Snyder, Assistant U.S. Attorney (2006)

“The Genovese family is the most prolific and most powerful of New York’s five organized crime families.”
– Mark J. Mershon, Assistant Director FBI’s New York Office (2006)

"The FBI's Joint Organized Crime Task Force, which includes members of the New York police department, had little luck with conventional surveillance of the Genovese family."
- ZD Net article (2006)

"The Genovese Crime Family is widely considered by law enforcement as the most powerful of the mob families in the New York Metropolitan area, if not the entire country."
- Jim Kouri, National Association of Chiefs of Police (2005)

"It has the most sophisticated operations. The Genovese family has always been considered the Ivy League of the Mafia."
- Selwyn Raab, New York Times columnist (2005)

"Still the most powerful and influential is the Genovese family."
- Bruce Mouw, Former FBI Supervisor (2005)

"While centered in the New York metropolitan region, the Genovese family also maintains a presence in portions of New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Florida, Nevada, and California. The family has strong connections with other traditional and non-traditional organized crime groups throughout the United States. Of all the traditional LCN families, the Genovese has the most contact with non-traditional criminal organizations and the money and power they command. Not only is the Genovese family the strongest LCN group in the nation, but it also is the most unique. Elements of this group persist in the solid waste industry, on the waterfront, in organized labor and in public construction. It runs the largest bookmaking and loan sharking rings in the New York/New Jersey metropolitan area. The family’s other major criminal enterprises include extortion and labor racketeering in the construction, demolition, asbestos removal, carting, recycling, trucking, and waterfront industries; theft and kickbacks from pension funds; insurance fraud; narcotics trafficking; infiltration of legitimate businesses; and public corruption. Its influence is particularly strong on the Port Newark/Elizabeth and Hudson County waterfronts. While the organization continues to commit traditional crimes such as murder, extortion, racketeering, loan sharking and illegal gambling, it has evolved into committing more sophisticated crimes, such as computer fraud, stock/securities fraud and health-care fraud. Many of these crimes are committed with the assistance of non-traditional organized crime groups, such as those with Russian and Cuban members. Of all the traditional LCN families, the Genovese group has the most contact with non-traditional criminal organizations, and the money and power they command. The Genovese family has a proven record of resiliency that has enabled it to maintain a grip on lucrative segments of the legitimate economy despite repeated assualts by law enforcement."
- New Jersey Commission of Investigation on Organized Crime (2004)

"The Genovese family is the Rolls-Royce of organized crime."
- Loretta Lynch, U.S. Attorney-Brooklyn (2003)

"I consider the Genovese family to be the Ivy League of the underworld. They more or less invented labor racketeering."
- Joe Coffey, New York Police Dept. (2003)

"The Genovese family remains the richest, most powerful, most secretive, and least damaged crime group."
- Barry W. Mawn, FBI New York Office (2001)

"Despite a two-decade-long crackdown on organized crime that had decimated other Mafia families, the Genovese family has flourished. It is the largest and most financially successful crime family in New York."
- U.S. Attorney Mary Jo White (2001)

"The Genovese crime family is widely known in law enforcement as the Ivy League of the underworld. The family that gets it right."
- John Miller, FBI media spokesman (2001)

"The Genovese family was in many ways, I think, the most powerful family in the country in terms of it's domination and exploitation of labor unions and legitimate businesses."
- Michael Chertoff, former NY federal prosecutor (2000)

Federal authorities said the Genovese family is the most powerful and diversified in the United States. While investigators have dealt crippling blows to the city's four other major crime families, including the Gambinos, the Genovese remained intact partly by sticking to construction and labor racketeering schemes and avoiding drug dealing, authorities say.
- Associated Press article (1996)

The Genovese concern, long held by many mob watchers to be the wealthiest and most powerful of New York's five families, has maintained sophisticated construction and labor racketeering schemes as others dumbed down to drug dealing and street rackets.
- NY Daily News article (1996)

"This was a family that for many years we did not have as great success in hurting as we did with the other families. Historically they have been a very guarded and careful family, and Gigante represents that approach to the ultimate degree."
Lewis Schiliro, Head of FBI NY Criminal Division (1996)

"The Genovese family has probably been the most powerful La Cosa Nostra family of the last hundred years."
- Ask Andy, Gangland News (1996)

"The Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit, New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh families are represented on the Commission by the Genovese family."
- LIUNA RICO indictment (1995)

"The Genovese family survives because it stayed out of the drug trade. Now they control all the traditional businesses of La Cosa Nostra and they're getting stronger."
- Joe Coffey, New York Police Dept. (1995)

"The Genovese family has become dominant among New York's Italian Mafia."
- Peter Maas, Author (1995)

"If anybody survives it will be the Genovese."
- Anthony Accetturo, Lucchese LCN family Captain (1994)

"If there is a major trend, it is the consolidation of power by the Genovese family."
- William Y. Doran, Head of the FBI's New York Criminal Division (1994)

"I have always considered the Genovese Family to be the most powerful LCN family in the United States."
- Al D'Arco, Lucchese LCN family Acting Boss (1994)

"The Genovese family is the most stable, the best counseled and the most diversified business-crime group in the country."
- Lee Brown, New York City Police Commissioner (1990)

"You keep hearing all this crap about Gotti being the boss of the bosses, but the Genovese have always been the country's most powerful family."
- Richard Ross, FBI (1990)

"The Genovese family is the most sophisticated, cautious, secretive, and powerful Cosa Nostra family in the United States."
- Phil Leonetti, Philadelphia LCN Underboss (1989)

Activity leads to indictments and arrests, which we read about. The more activity, the more there is to read about. The less activity, the less there is to read about. Which is why we hear most about the NY families. And after them, we hear the most about families in New England, Philadephia, or Chicago. And it's why there isn't a lot of information of mob activity out of places like Pittsburgh, Tampa, St. Louis, or LA.

it's clear they are the most secretive. We still don't know who their boss is even though the feds have a task force solely on them.

There are stories of made guys having no clue who to kick up to because they don't know any captains. That's smart of them though, you'd think the other families would start doing it like this. Then maybe when they get one rat it won't end up with a domino effect taking out about 15 of them.

IvyLeague, just wondering. You must have backed up all these quotes in a word or notepad file for just in case, no?

The Genovese family has been said to require less money kicked up to them by their soldiers than those in other families. But every made guy knows who his captain is. Who he has to report to.



Yeah, since a lot of the same discussions pop up from time to time, it's easier to go to "the files" then type again what one has already said a dozen times.

I was wondering the same thing.

Thanks for the info, Ivy League.

With the Genovese being so secretive, how has there inner workings changed? How do they operate differently? Or are they just doing what they have been doing for many years?

Are there less sit downs? Are there less meetings between Captains? Are crews run differently?

Thanks.

Well, for starters they are more selective about who they let in than other families. It seems they don't make guys just because there are empty slots to fill. Quality attracts quality just as incompetence can attract more incompetence. I think a crucial time was the Commission case. The Gambinos went from Castellano to Gotti. The Luccheses went from Tony Ducks to Vic and Gas. The Colombos ended up still being at each other's throats. The Bonannos had a decent run for a while but only because the feds took their eye off the ball with that family. Once that changed, Massino's house of cards fell. The Genovese didn't skip a beat when Fat Tony went away. Law enforcement credited Chin with exceptional ability in picking loyal captains. And, even after his death, many of those same guys continued to run the family. The attrition of quality is there in the family, but it's not nearly as apparent or has come on as quick as in the other families.

They also continue to enforce policy by violence, including murder. Larry Ricci ended up in a trunk because he wouldn't take a plea deal. Al Bruno was killed because he was suspected of being an informant. As Chin once said, "We don't break our captains. We kill them."

Another factor is Genovese members, on average, being wealthier than their counterparts in other families. There isn't as much jockying for position in order to get rich. A lot of these guys are already rich. And already having money means they don't have to become as involved in dangerous endeavors such as drug trafficking.

Still another factor was the family's quickness to take plea deals, which dramatically cuts the amount of prison time a guy does; giving him less reason to flip.

Genovese guys have also been known to be exceptionally wary of surveillance. There's well known stories about Dom Cirillo having his driver go the wrong way up freeway ramps to lose tails. Or Tino Fiumara hiding in the trunk of a car on the way to meetings. Or Barney Bellomo walking up to an FBI surveillance van, after he spotted it, and looking in the window. Not to mention them making guys who are just in a robe, so as not to risk the ceremony being recorded.

Beyond that, I think much of it has to do with them always having been at the top; even going back to the days of Masseria and before. It's easier to stay on top if you've started there then get there from below.

A couple questions for you Ivy.

Firstly, is it really true the Genovese are staying away from drug trafficking? I'm sure you can find a few examples, but I'm saying relative to the other families.

Next, who were these loyal captains that The Chin bumped up that impressed the FBI?

Good point about starting at the top. To an extent, it was all laid out since the beginning. A good example is in the 30's, the Al Mineo Gang was noted for its high amount of made guys. The Gambinos never had to worry about replenishing their ranks.

Ivy League, with the Genovese boss spot being vacant, who do you think is actually there?

The Genovese family is relatively less involved in drug trafficking. Obviously, with a family that size, there's always going to be some who are dealing. But when looking at the Gambinos, the only other family that rivals the Genovese in size, the Gambinos are much deeper involved in the drug trade.



I don't know if the feds were referring to anyone in particular but probably more to all of Chin's captains in general. If you look at the time he became boss until he died, not one of the guys who became a captain or higher under Chin flipped. Even though many of them were prosecuted and did long prison stints.



I still don't think anyone has officially replaced Gigante to become the next official boss. While other families are going back to the traditional administration, it seems the Genovese are content to continue to use acting bosses or ruling panels.

After Danny Leo went to prison, the family was reportedly being run by a rotating panel of recently released high-level members: Benny Mangano, Barney Bellomo, Ernie Muscarella, and Larry Dentico. About a year later, it was said that Tino Fiumara was on the panel when he died, along with two other guys.

Even though these west side guys seem to go forever, it wouldn't surprise me if the really old guys like Benny Mangano, Larry Dentico, Dom Cirillo, Matty Ianniello, Mario Gigante, etc. are more or less retired. In my opinion, the safer bet would be on the relatively younger guys like Bellomo and Muscarella. Especially considering most of the family's leaders come from that crew anyway.

Bellomo is probably the official boss. Its completely understandable they they don't want that released to the world.

It could be Leo who is the official boss, who when imprisoned until 2013 could have appointed a panel.

As for Mario Gigante, the Feds have assumed that he is retired. It makes you wonder if they know anything about this family at all.

Considering that they are very secretive, could be that Paulie Stripes is real, has been hidden from the world and leads the charge officially.

Or Paulie Stripes could be the Feds' longest serving mole and taken the top spot to completely destroy the Genovese's forever.

Being from Ridgewood, I sometimes wonder how the Genovese got involved in killing a cop.

I figure the shooter was a paranoid mobster who was stealing or dealing drugs, and thought the cop was actually a hitman and shot him.

http://www.russbaker.com/archives/New%20York%20Magazine%20-%20The%20Cop%20Out,%20December.htm

Skinny (or anyone else for that matter), there used to be a Genovese loanshark operating from the ridgewood section during the 70s and 80s by the name of Vince Lamattina. Do you know if the guy´s still around?

i think the feds are too quick to point somebody as retired i doubt these man retired if not really with some mental diseases or coz particulare events
i doubt benny mangano, mario gigante and other old men are retired same for other families

Ivy and others,

I have also read that the Genovese Family required less money to be kicked up, especially under Chin. Just curious, but what is the source of this?

I thought there was some mention of it in a book in the Windows Case with Peter Sorvino, but I thought it was that the $ was spread around the Captains and Admin, and maybe some of it flowed to the soldiers as well.

This can NOT be understated. In other families, especially the Gambinos under Gotti, people were killed because they took plea deals. Ricci was killed because he wouldn't take one.

The Genoveses (and the Luccheses, under Crea, who has made an art of the plea deal) were wily enough to realize that long prison stretches for the top guys add up to less money. They take the five and ten year deals because they realize it's better to be out in ten and making money than to be in for twenty to life. It has served them well.

No kidding.

Raab mentioned it in his book, Five Families. But I think he had also reported that before he wrote the book. A lot of his material for it came from all his articles over the years.

To stimulate growth? What shows their power to me is the fact that the actual boss of the family was not even mentioned in the case. From what i understand the Chin wasnt involved in the case at all and he was the boss for atleast 3 years by then. I know some may say neither was Gotti but he became boss pretty much during the case.

I think that was the result of Chin having Fat Tony attend the Commission meetings, hold the making ceremonies, and do a lot of other things the boss is supposed to do. In hindsight, one can't blame the feds for believing Salerno was the boss. He was doing much of what a boss does. They just didn't know, as Cafaro later said, he had to put all major decisions on record with Chin.

Going back to why the Genovese family is the top family in the country, I think you could sum it up by 3 basic things...

1. They're the largest, best organized, and most secretive family.

2. They control the largest bookmaking and loansharking operations in the New York/New Jersey area.

3. They have the most labor racketeering activity left.

How did the Chin enforce this though, like how did he make Salerno feel subordinate, did Fat Tony at all resent the Chin using him?



This, this, this!

Salerno has widely been labeled as a "frontboss" for Gigante. I believe that the term was invented by the Feds or the prosecutors when they after the successful convictions in the Commission case had to explain the fact that Salerno actually was not the boss of the Genoveses. Instead of admitting that they actually had targeted the wrong guy (which could have endangered the conviction and maybe the entire case), they got off with claiming "well, Salerno was a frontboss".
This was an evasive maneuver and a tactic that had worked before. For example, after launching the war on the Mafia in the late 1950s, Hoover (who had denied the Mafia´s existence for many years) got off by saying "Mafia? It doesn´t exist. However, La Cosa Nostra do exist and we have been keeping track on these guys for many years!" By changing name of the organisation, he saved himself from embarrassment.

Salerno most probably held the underboss spot within the Genovese family. The underboss, according to the old Mafia tradition, is the boss´s alter ego. In many cases they were supposed to act and think the same. That is why a boss often sent his underboss to various functions such as meetings and induction ceremonies. This is how Gigante operated and it suited him ofcourse.

The idea of having a "frontboss" as an extra level within the hierarchy of a Family is totally out of whack (in my opinion).
Who would want to have such a position within the Family to protect and shield the boss and risk being caught? After all, the mobsters on the top, are not foolish.

1 of the 2 turncoats from the springfield mass. crew said they were made in springfield in 1982 that guy felix trangrese or somthing i wonder if fat tony took the ride up north. and when they made that guy fusco who just beat a double murder he was made in mass by the capo of there crew. i think they let capo's do there makings sometimes, it would be alot easier, and makes sense put a crew of 8 guys they trust to make the new guy, but antoher springfield rat said he went to the bronx with nigro to get made in a vacant apartment. the guy cookie got one guy on tape saing they made 15 guys in 1 nite in 99. in the book 5 familes they show the house morris levy the record mogul gave chin 4 floor upper eastside town house for a gift is worth 5mill?maybe more, i think more. that guy benny eggs is worth a ton.

I've always looked at it as Fat Tony was the acting boss for Chin, who was the official boss. Salerno was acting in the boss' stead, performing all the duties of a boss. I've never cared for the term "front boss," since it implies an unwitting guy who lets himself to be set up for the fall. Salerno wasn't an idiot and that wasn't the situation.

Anthony Salerno wasn't the brightest guy in the mob -

On a federal wiretap he was heard saying to Matthew Iannello concerning inductions in other families:

"I don't know none of them. They don't put the nicknames down here....but anyway, I'll leave this up to the boss"

Did he know the wiretap was there? Did he feel he wasn't important enough to be bugged so he spoke so openly? Did he think the family was so secretive that the feds could do nothing to get them?


On other wiretap, Genovese soldier Giuseppe Sabato stated to Salerno:

"Forget about the papers. There's arrests next week. I'm pretty sure Paul and the other guy and Tony Ducks. I'm pretty sure I'll found out tonight. If they get Chin they're wrapped up"

Continuing to Salerno, Sabato states:

"All, all the finagling, all the manipulating, manipulating and manipulating, to fool the government, f-k it, it won't stick"

Salerno states:

"He's got to worry if he gets pinched, all them years he spent in that f-kin asylum. For nothing"

Discussing the boss so openly, Salerno wasn't the cleverest of them. Hell, why wasn't he killed for this?

Joseph Gorgone, a Colombo soldier was threatened by Chin because he stated that he wasn't really crazy. What he said was caugnt on an FBI wiretap. Obviously ignored by them, as was the words from Salerno:

"I'll leave this up to the boss".

No wonder the feds can't beat the mob - it was designed to be indestructable

Lots of guys get caught on bugs and wiretaps. Fat Tony did. Castellano did. Tony Ducks did. Even Chin was caught talking to either his wife or mistress (don't recall which) on the phone in a normal demeanor; i.e. not playing crazy.

I'd pay to hear that tap.

You can hear it on a documentary I'm pretty sure. I recall hearing it. Maybe someone on here knows which docu it was?

Yeh its the mistress but you only hear him saying goodbye and a kiss or something

I remember he told her she needed to stop smoking.

It's not hard for the FBI to catch someone on a wiretap, especially in this day and age. Chin being caught on tape isn't a big deal, as he didn't incriminate himself or anyone else. That said it sure didn't help his crazy act.

I know it sounds overly simplistic, Sonny. But you know as well as I do that it wasn't all that long ago that plea deals by wiseguys were unheard of, and I just think that the Genoveses were a little bit quicker to see the benefits of said deals.

The Gambinos certainly took their sweet time in seeing the light. Don't you think that guys like John Carneglia and Gene Gotti curse John while they sit in their jail cells today? Those guys were offered very generous pleas back in '89 which would have had them on the street years ago.

There's a big difference between coming out of jail at 55 and coming out at 75. They could have had a few prime years ahead of them. Now they'll be old men when they're released. And if not for John Gotti's insane anti-government mindset, they might have had those years on the street.

No deals seems ludacris. I would think you would want guys to take a plea to less years and reduce their chance for cooperation. But like you said, it just shows Gotti's ignorance.

Any Boss who enjoys media attention is bat-shit crazy. The two most famous gangsters of the 20th century were also two of the worst.

rhode island did the evrybody plead out and admit there o.c. members. which most of the genovese guys do today. the d.a wants to hurt there pride making it a fact in there plea deals that they admit to being a member. i think thats a thing that changed cause of gotti. just like they all admit to being members if you go to trial that guy fusco, tommy shots beat cases well the lawyers admitted they were members but not murders. the persico son got a sweet deal, without admitting to being connected thou.

Very true and it shows you the shift in landscape of LCN over the years. You would never have caught Carlo giving quotes and smiling for the camera.

True. But it has also shifted back. You won't see the likes of Bellomo, Crea or Cefalu giving quotes to the media or demanding every single member of the family to come pay tribute at the same social club like some ego tripping maniac.

Both Neapolitans.

Very true .

if his name ever shows up on this site someone will get the fame they seek altho not what they want

The Genovese family was using front bosses (or whatever you want to call them) long before Salerno, so I'd imagine Salerno knew what he was gettnig in to. But just because he was a front boss doesn't mean he didn't weild considerable power. He was still deep in the Manhatten Rackets during the 1980s.



As for the Genovese family being the most powerful: until 2010, they had only 3 made guys flip on them. Valachi, Cafaro and Barone. All 3 were Soldiers so they didn't have a ton of info to give. Even the 2 Captains that flipped in 2010, Arillotta and Tranghese, weren't based in Massachusetts. There's no way they could know much about the Genovese's power base in NYC and Jersey. The FBI just hasn't been able to reach the Genovese family's hierachy. Other than that, like everyone said they are just so damn secretive and paranoid of the FBI watching them. It seems so logical it make you wonder why the other families don't follow the same method.

!!!

if bobby manna living life at fort dix id bet jersery got upto who ever he wants 75 100 guys and his blood family are very well off, him and scarfo from them books get along good, you wonder how many friends scarfo jr got with them $$$$$$. the place fort devens in mass got a shit load of old guys, its iteresting, but some guys they just send to florida.cali.wiscon.ect if your nice close to home, i read they were putting jerry anguiio in the hole in his late 70tys snd he didnt care like any other con.

Here's part of the conversation. Starts around 2:40.

the best one was when chin snd one of his guys sent for massino to his club when he showed they told him sit in a chair, some one post it was a classic. vitale spoke of it, i think it was early/mid 80tys.

If you guys are talking about Capone, he was a vastly more competent boss than Gotti.

Gotti's mistake was acting like it was still Capone's era.

great stuff ivy thanks for this. u have way too much time on your hand and i am glad of it!! the genovese's are like an enigma. to get into that family must be like getting the job of your dreams for these wiseguys. and i bet most dont get made till their 50s also. apart from barney. what a family they are!

i wonder how kick ups work for them considering there are so many made guys, like does bellomo get anything from newark/ elizabeth ports? maybe everything is divided evenly on the panel like one guy on the panel gets money from jersey one from the westside, conn, brooklyn etc.

would be really nuts if bellemo is the sole guy on top that would clearly make him the biggest wiseguy around by a long shot i imagine

Yeah hes got a lot of juice I think he was the one to snap a gay photo of edgar j. hoover that's why him and his crim family have so much clout

The latest news, from two articles in 2009 and 2011, are that the family is being run by a ruling panel. The 2009 article said it was a rotating panel of recently released senior members including Benny Mangano, Barney Bellomo, Ernie Muscarella, and Larry Dentico. The 2011 article said the panel had consisted of Tino Fiumara and two other guys that were unnamed.

Technically speaking, anyone in the administration, whether it's the traditional set up or a panel, is entitled to tribute from the entire family. Of course, if some of them were to take a page out of Chin's book, they may not require that much; especially if they already have a lot of money themselves. And most of the top Genovese guys do. The 2004 New Jersey OC report said that Genovese crews are allowed to keep more of their earnings than those in other families.

When eight members of the Genovese family were murdered on Galante's orders for trying to muscle in on his drug operation, the other families decided he had outlived his usefulness at the head of the Bonanno family.

Anybody know if there's much truth in that and if so what happened? Who were the Genovese who were killed?

(sort of unrelated but thought I'd ask anyway.)

That seems to have been some kind of Mafia urban myth. It's been brought up a few times on the forums, all quoting the one source that originally claimed it but I forget who that was. I've never seen it substantiated anywhere.

The Chicago Outfit dealt with one Family in New York. It was the very powerful Genovese Family. Jack Cerone went to New York at least a couple of times to meet with them about some kind of Union thing that also involved Chicago. I never heard of the Outfit really interacting with any Family in New York except the Genovese Family. I know the Outfit Bosses did not care much for the Bonnano Family at all. again, This was over 30 years ago.

On the truetv criminal library website writer Anthony Bruno says it in his article on the Bonanno family which means it's most likely in one of his books too. Not sure if he was the original source of the story or not though.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/family_epics/bonanno/4.html

Personally i seriously doubt it's true, a few OC websites say it was high ranking Gambino's involved in the heroin racket. Most likely just a bullshit story started by some writer to beef up whatever story or book he was trying to push at the time.

In my opinion the story is about as credible as the Iceman taking out Galante.

I don't which one's correct, but I know that i read it was gambino family members he killed !!

The first time i remember reading about it they said it was high ranking Genovese, but your right DiLorenzo when you say others say that they were Gambino's. Seems kind of strange though that nobody can name one name let alone 8. No mention of it in any Galante related trials such as the pizza connection trial or any file, at least as far as i know.

All we know is someone started a rumor that Galante had 8 heroin guys hit. Only thing i can think of is if they were Gambino's maybe the supposed hits were on Gambino connnected zips but i really don't even believe that. Personally i think the story is bullshit, but if anyone can find any info on it i'd love to see it. I guess you never know, but until i see some kind of evidence of these murders i'll just agree with Ivy and chalk it up as a urban myth.

I think it might have had more to do with the Gambinos vs. Carmine Galante. The murders of Carmine Consalvo and his brother are connected to a beef between Dellacroce and Galante, however, they were said to have been killed by Gigante's Genovese crew? It's all very Byzantine but there was definitely something there.

Thanks Barrett, i was just reading that.

They threw Carmine Consalvo off a roof and later they threw his brother off a roof too.

The cops called it : "The Murder Of The Flying Consalvos".

Same article said 2 drug dealers(George Adamo & Charles LaRocca) that were associates of the Gambino's were killed too. So thats a possible 4 hits, interesting.

Maybe there really is something to the story.

Right, I was trying to recall the names of the two dealers who got killed. Can anyone shed some light on the situation? What were the ties to the Genovese? Who else did Galante have whacked? Etc.

Lilo whacking Genovese and Gambino guys left to right seems to be (just like Ivy said) a Mafia urban myth. According to Vinny Teresa, while imprisoned with Lilo, Lilo pointed out some of his drug associates to Teresa and expressed his hate towards them for their stupidity. I don´t remember the exact wording, but Teresa went on to say in his book that Lilo´s associates better watch themselves when released because Lilo was blaming them for getting caught. One of these guys, apparently was Gambino member Joseph LoPiccolo. Although dying a natural death in 1999, LoPiccolo was said for many years (incorrectly) to have been one of those guys murdered by Galante. I think that Teresa´s prison story (and Teresa is now known as having been prone to stretch the truth) may have contributed, at least in some way, to the birth of the myth of Galante killing Gambino and Genovese made guys all over NY.

THE ONE TIME CARLO WAS ON CAMERA HE HAD HIS BACK TO IT AND NEVER SPOKE A WORD.

There's a video of him from the front in some documentary.

Good points Giancarlo !!!

Idk. They are obviously at least the 2nd most powerful and 2nd richest family. They coupd very well be the richest and most powerful. But the Gambino's in their prime were a money making machine. In every book I read, every show I see, everything my father has said, the Gambinos were the richest and most powerful. But we don't know for sure because we don't know actual figures. Carlo gambino was a better boss than anyone the Genovese's ever had though.

Gotti and Capone were nowhere near the worse. Take a look at Scarfo, Amuso/Casso, or Persico.

They did much more damage to their families

The Genovese family has always been the richest and most powerful. The Gambinos rivaled them in many ways, especially during Carlo's reign, but they never surpassed them. The Gambinos simply got the press but the Genovese family was more quiet, more sophisticated, and well run.

I respectfully somewhat disagree. If you take a look at the bosses convicted and sentenced throughout history up until 1998, the Gambinos had only John Gotti and Anastasia (for contempt and later tax evasion) put behind bars. Luciano, Costello, Genovese, Catena, Tieri (if boss), Salerno (if boss) and Gigante were all Genovese bosses who were convicted and sent to prison. Overall I would say (if using this factor and this is an important one in my opinion) that the Gambino bosses were far more successful in avoiding being sent to prison. And the numbers of made guys in the two crime families (atleast during the time span mentioned) has always been to the Gambinos advantage. I guess other factors can come into play such as the total money made, but honestly, how would we know the exact numbers?

Yes I agree 100% hairy. I'd probably put my money on the Gambinos for being the richest though. Because we don't know the exact figures that were being raked in. But Carlo in my opinion was the boss of all bosses. Not that he actually said that or that he was crowned that but everybody knew it. He was the boss of bosses like Luciano was. They were both never officially crowned that but everybody knew they were.

Chin they're wrapped up" ? Chin could have been a top FBI rat and got a pass on the case this gos on all the time or because it was not Chin talking himself on the bug it was hear say as Chin was not there when they was talking about him so hear say was not going to get him into Court, Fat Tony was doing a job at the time got years in prison and took it like a man and that is why Chin had him on his team.

Carlo Gambino was as good a boss as Gigante-Genovese so the power would have been the same, Gambinos fucked up from around 1983-4 right up to today,The Genovese from 1983-4 today have not had the bad luck of the Gambinos so the power would be with the Genovese right now but never count out Gambinos they have a brand name the world over and all it would take it 5 years run to tune around to the good times again for them.

I'd say Galante got killed because he had big bucks out of heroin and the others wanted to take over his racket for them self's the rest is all just lies as cover story of why they hit him.

I really do believe the Gambinos made more money though. I've neve seems anywhere that the Genovese's were more powerful and richer than the Gambino's.

First, one of the most fundamental ideas of organized crime is the organization not being dependent on a single man, even the boss. So, I'm not sure that some Gambino bosses avoiding prison, in itself, would necessarily make that family stronger.

Second, much of the belief about the Gambinos being dominant during Carlo's reign seems to have come from two false theories - 1) that Carlo was the "boss of bosses" and controlled other families. And 2) that the Genovese family suffered from lack of leadership. Of course, neither was true.

Third, even when the Gambinos were larger, it wasn't by a significant amount. Not in the way either of those families were larger than the three smaller NY families.



There's never really been such a position or mafioso wielding that kind of power here in the U.S. I suppose one could argue Giuseppe Morello in the early 20th century, or Salvatore Maranzano for a brief period before he was killed, but even those are a stretch. The closest thing to that was Toto Riina in Sicily. Gambino was, at most, the first among equals.



You should read more.

In 1990, one FBI official (Richard Ross) said, "You keep hearing all this crap about Gotti being the boss of the bosses, but the Genovese have always been the country's most powerful family."

In 1994, in his testimony in a case against the Mason Tenders Union, former Lucchese acting boss Al D'Arco said, "I have always considered the Genovese Family to be the most powerful LCN family in the United States."

A contributor Jerry Capeci used in his old Gang Land News articles back in the day, who answered questions under "Ask Andy," said "The Genovese family has probably been the most powerful La Cosa Nostra family of the last hundred years."

In 2000, while talking about the Commission Case, former NY federal prosecutor Michael Chertoff said, "The Genovese family, I think, in many ways was the most powerful family in the country in terms of it's domination and exploitation of labor unions and legitimate businesses."

In Selwyn Raab's book 2006 book Five Families, on page 315, he writes that the Genovese family were believed to be "more affluent" than the Gambinos.

It's the Genovese family that has always been referred to as the "Ivy League of the Underworld, the "Rolls Royce of Organized Crime," and who one law enforcement official said had "more or less invented labor racketeering."

Again, while a good argument can be made that the Gambinos rivaled the Genovese for about 35 years (from the late 1950's to early 1990's), there is really little to no evidence that they ever supplanted them.

You seem very intent on convincing me that the Genovese's are the richest and most powerful. And that's fine I respect your persistency. But those quotes are all cherry picked. I bet for every quote you find someone say the Genovese's are the most powerful you'll find one that says the Gambino's are the most powerful. The Genovese's knew they couldn't take on the Gambinos by themselves when Gotti was boss that's why they teamed up with the lucchese's. And that wasn't even during the Gambino family's prime. Let me take a quote out of Phil Leonetti's book, "At that time, the Gambino's were the most powerful family in La Cosa Nostra and Carlo Gambino, who was known as Don Carlo, was the il capo di tutti capi, the boss of all bosses, who sat at the head of the commission". Direct quote from Phil Leonetti in his book, "Mafia Prince".

There hasn't been a boss of all bosses since Salvatore Maranzano. Do you honestly think Carlo was the boss of guys like Tommy Luchesse and the various Genovese bosses lol? I agree hewas the most powerful boss of his time but this still doesn't mean he had that position. No matter what Leonetti said.

Well, boss of all bosses in my opinion doesn't necessarily mean that you control every single boss in this case. Luciano made sure there would be nobody who actually controlled every boss. But lucky was boss of all bosses. The title was still there but the definition was basically changed. But it means you are recognized as the most powerful boss. You are the most respected boss. No boss does anything in your territory without your blessing. I think the lucchese's and Genovese's would be more frightened of the repercussions of moving in on gambino territory than the Gambino's would be if they moved in on their territory. And I would take Phil Leonetti's word being that he was a high ranking member in the mob. I think he would know which family is the most powerful at that time.

I think people take the title "boss of all bosses" too literal.

That's exactly what boss of bosses means, and neither Carlo or Luciano fit that description. No matter what description you try to make for it. He was the most powerful boss,but it didn't mean he could make decisions for other families.Also it could be argued that Luciano wasn't even the most poweful boss, since it seemed that Mangano,Bonnano,Profaci and Maggadino were closely allied.

Also you were accusing Ivy of cherry picking quotes. When you took one from Leonetti, that according to you holds more weight than the 7 or 8 Ivy produced.

It does hold more weight are you kidding me? Lol. Leonetti was actually in the mob. He was an underboss. I think I would put more stock into what Phil Leonetti has to say about the mob than Jerry Capeci or the other guys who were quoted. Jerry Capeci is very credible but compared to Leonetti it's not even close. There's been many mobsters who have called him boss of all bosses or head of the commission. And it was just a little friendly shot at him, I never use quotes. The Gambino crime family was more powerful and wealthier than the Genovese's during their prime from what I always hear. I think the Genovese's are only known as the "Ivy league" because Luciano was the founder of them and he is a legendary figure. I wouldn't say everyone else outside of gigante was a great boss. None of their bosses knew how to stay out of prison. None of their bosses were ever as effective as Carlo was in terms of staying out of jail and wielding so much power. They never really had a boss as great as carlo was. Chin was never the boss that carlo was. One got convicted and the other didn't. Not that that necessarily makes someone a better boss but it helps. But maybe I should've said head of the commission if that makes you feel better. The definition of boss of all bosses is obviously different to everyone else in the mob when they call carlo and lucky boss of all bosses.

I am in no way belittling the power of the Genovese's but unjust saying I believe in their prime, the gambino crime family was stronger.

So a philly guys quote holds more weight than the acting boss of a NY familly .

On the flip side to the Genovese bosses ending up in jail. Mangano,Anastasia and Castellano were killed and both Gotti's died in jail.

And you seem very intent on clinging to your preconceived notions, no matter what is put in front of you. You can believe whatever you want. I just think you've read the same superficial hype regarding the Gambinos without really looking deeper into things. The fact that you think there has ever been a "boss of bosses" shows as much. Luciano created the Commission, in part, so there wouldn't be that very thing. There can certainly be a single most powerful or influential boss. And Gambino was that at one time. But that doesn't mean he was the boss of the other bosses or had the kind of power where that title wold be in any way fitting. Nor did him being the top boss mean his family was automatically the most powerful. Let's not forget that Massino chaired the Commission meeting back in 2000 (Chin, Gotti, Amuso, and Persico were in prison) but nobody is going to argue that automatically meant the Bonannos were the top family.



Chin farmed out the hit to Casso because it was smart to keep things at arm's length. It was the Gambinos who didn't respond even after they had good reason to believe Chin was behind the DeCicco car bombing.



You keep talking about what you "always hear." I read the same stuff when I first started reading books on the mob. And there's probably more books on the Gambinos, particularly because of Gotti, than any other family (except maybe Chicago because of Capone, etc.) But once you study things more in depth, you get a different picture.

The Genovese family has been referred to the "Ivy League" and "Rolls Royce" of the mob by law enforcement because they've always been the most sophisticated family. The smartest, shrewdest, and most disciplined. You can talk about Carlo on an individual basis all you want, but the Genovese family has always had a "deeper bench," as one FBI official put it.

The Genovese family started out as the most powerful, originating with Morello, then Masseria, and later led by Luciano. The question is, how and when exactly did the Gambinos supplant them as the top family? You and some others may say when Carlo took over or during his reign at some point. But how did that, in itself, make the Gambinos stronger? This is where we go back to what I was talking about before - the idea that Gambino was the "boss of bosses" while the Genovese suffered from lack of leadership. And neither was true.

So, I ask again, how did the Gambinos supplant the Genovese? It was still the Genovese family that represented several east coast families on the Commission. It was the Genovese that had more of a national presence. The Gambinos rivaled the Genovese in various NY industries but the Genovese always had more labor union clout. Not to mention political clout. And it seems the Genovese always had the largest gambling and loansharking operations.

When Carlo was boss, that's when they supplanted them. It was obvious that they were the most powerful crime family in NYC during his reign. And comparing masino to gambino is a joke. And I disagree. The Genovese's never had a really great boss who was able to stay out of prison. That's it. Whether you want to call it hype or not, they're experts saying this. And you are not an expert. You know your stuff but you are not one.

And no, they said it in Casso's book. They said the Gambino's weren't scared to take on one family but multiple families could be a problem. In Casso's book he made it pretty clear that the Gambino's were the strongest. Hence, supplanting the Genovese's

Not only are you just repeating yourself, you didn't answer my question. HOW did Gambino simply being a good boss, even the top boss, make his crime family the most powerful? You didn't answer that question because you can't. Well, nothing beyond reminding us again what a great boss Gambino was.

And, whether you realize it or not, you're the one basically drawing a parallel between Gambino and Massino. You said that Gambino was chairman of the Commission. And your entire argument seems to be that Gambino being the top boss meant his was the top family. Well, if that's the case, Massino chairing the Commission back in 2000 meant the Bonannos were the top family at the time. But does anyone really believe that?

Luciano and Genovese went to prison. Costello and Lombardo didn't. And Gigante lasted for years on the street before finally being convicted. You can't compare Gambino's reign, which was pre-RICO, to Chin's reign afterward. If Gambino hadn't died previously, he probably would have been convicted in the Commission case. And all this is not to overlook what I said about the organization not being dependent on a single guy. Even if the boss goes to prison, the family continues.



Where in Casso's book did he ever say that? You're starting with your own personal theory about the Gambinos not being "scared" and then claiming Casso said something he didn't in order to support that.

What I've always thought was interesting is how relatively little air time the Genovese get despite their large size. The only things talked about are Costello's trouble publically testifying in the 1950s (which didn't amount to much for the family as a whole), the failed hit on Costello (which didn't amount to much legally for the family, even though it caused Costello to resign), and finally the shenanigans of Vincent Gigante, which even some of these law enforcement officers seem to compliment him on. No huge fuckups or cowboys like the Colombo wars, Donnie Brasco, rat bosses, or the "We don't Gotti any brains" succession of bosses and acting bosses who try to kidnap radio talk show hosts and announce to the whole world that they are criminals. It's quite remarkable.

This topic shouldn't even be posted...it's embarrassing!

The Genovese and Chicago Families are the 2 most secretive, united, cunning, disiplined, Wiley and circumspect families from day 1.
Both have never had a attention seeking boss like gotti,both have greatly benefited from leadership that happens to be wealthy and in most cases don't want to be bosses but take the position because it's the best thing for the family. The families were the first to present facade heriarchys and upfront bosses to insulate the leadership from law enforcement scrutiny and it's something they have done for many, many years. Its no couincedence that both of these families most important turncoats we're soldiers(barone and Calabrese ) because no one above capo has ever flipped for these families.
The leaders for the most part are older and the links between the families is very real. QD Cirillo is very close to Chicago and Matassa Jr and Danny Pagano speak regularly as they are brother in laws and also both of them are Capos.

How do you know QD is close to Chicago? Sounds like BS to me

Forget about Giancana?

Ivy, most of these statements were made after John Gotii´s conviction. And they reflect only personal opinions. Please note the bolded words in some of the quotes. Same kind of statements can be found regarding John Gotti in and around the late 1980s when LE was hunting his ass. Back then, LE said that Gotti was the leader of the most powerful crime family in the US. I´m not disputing that the Genoveses are at this moment, and has been for the last 10-15 years, the most powerful Family. But the Gambinos have historically always had a larger amount of soldiers and a larger amount of captains. This is an important criteria to use when measuring power. Another important criteria to use is stability within a Family. Bosses who were able to keep themselves away from being indicted and convicted had it easier bringing stability and prosperity to his Family. Many Genovese bosses, as I mentioned in my earlier post, spent many years behind bars. So from a historically point of view, I´m not so sure that the Genoveses always has been the most powerful Family, something you seem to claim in your post.

Revis, Camarel and Ivy are right. The last boss of bosses was Maranzano. Since his death in 1931, no boss ever held that title again. Nor was there a boss who had the ambition of becoming one (in contrary to what you may be reading or hearing or seeing in the media). When the Commission was formed, it took over the duties the boss of bosses once had; to be the supreme decision maker in important major issues. When the Commission was formed those decisions were made within the group of bosses who sat on it. And there was always a voting involved. Carlo Gambino (or any other member of the Commission for that matter) did not personally appoint other bosses, murders in the other families did not happen solely to one Commission member´s will and command, no boss on the Commission meddled in the internal affairs of other Families without the backing of the Commission. These things, which had previously been the duties of the boss of bosses, would have never been accepted by the Commission members because it would have opposed the ultimate purpose of the creation of the Commission.

Even if one doesn't agree that the Genovese family has always been the strongest, there has really been no argument about it for 20 years now.



Yes, size is certainly on important factor. But you talk like the Gambinos were significantly larger than the Genovese. They weren't. If you look at the estimates it was perhaps a 20% difference at most.



You call Vincent Mangano, Albert Anastasia, and Paul Castellano being killed stability?

I think what makes this interesting is that during Gambino's reign as boss of his family, 1957 to 1976, we have a period of time for the Genoveses where we don't know a whole lot. Hell, Lombardo was a boss for more than ten years and we still don't know a lot more about him now than we did thirty years ago.

The Gambinos have almost always had more soldiers and made more money, but the Genoveses have traditionally controlled the best rackets, have had a tighter organizational structure and have arguably generated the most respect from the rest of the Five Families. None of the other families messed with the Genoveses. As someone stated earlier, Gotti knew Chin was behind the bombing that killed his underboss and someone with as much balls as John knew that retaliating against the Genoveses would bring hell down on the Gambinos.

And that's a big reason for the perceived dominance of the Gambinos at the time. The Genovese leadership was laying low and some mistook that for lack of leadership.



Even many of the reports years ago that claimed the Gambinos were the largest and most powerful said the Genovese were wealthier. And the Gambinos don't have more members now.

They were all killed from within. But that´s not the point. My point is that the claim "the Genovese Family has always been the most powerful family" certainly can be challenged.

30 years ago

The gambino family was the largest family.
The gambinos were stronger in garbage due to Bernie Adelstein, and local 813 and there control in queens, manhattan, Bronx and long island through jimmy brown.
They were number 1 in concrete through halloran, Sasso and 282.
The gambinos were stronger in porn through DB.
The gambinos were stronger in the garment center.
They were stronger in illegal narcotics


The Genovese were stronger in the laborers.
The Genovese were stronger in the carpenters.
The Genovese were strongest in the iron workers.
They were stronger in the roofers.
They were stronger in new jersey.
They were stronger in Connecticut and Springfield.
They Were stronger in the javits center.
They were stronger at the Fulton fish market.
They were stronger in the longshoremen and on the piers.
They were stronger in Florida through the ILA.
They were stronger in the mason tenders through jimmy messera.
They were stronger in gasoline.
They were stronger in the windows replacement scheme.
They were the stronger nationally.
They were the only family to have a messagario in they're administration to be the liaison to Chicago.



You do the math

Didn't part of the Gambino's power in the garment sector and elsewhere during Carlo's reign come from an alliance with the Lucchese family that started when his and Lucchese's kids got married?

Also, didn't the Genovese family have to approve the heads of some smaller families like the Patriarca family? Did the Gambino's have any such influence? I know that Gambino and Angelo Bruno were supposed to be close, but did they have the same kind of arrangement? And how much influence did the Gambino's have in Philadelphia before and after Bruno and Gambino were around? Wasn't Scarfo favored by the Genovese, or is that an oversimplification promoted by some mob documentaries?

Why so powerfull. 03 the bosses in the bronx called down a pair of shooters from a small massachusetts city 3 hours away to kill a nyc union official and after 9 shots the guy lived only reason the public knows is cause 1 shooter fliped in 2010 and gave up 2 or 3 other murders connected to that family. The rat anthony arillta didnt even no why the union guy was to be killed thats a powerfull organization.

I think the Gambino and Genovese families were pretty equal in garbage. They split the 5 NYC boroughs. The Gambinos had a presence on Long Island, though that was mainly the Luccheses turf. The Genovese had more of a presence in Westchester, Southwest Connecticut, and New Jersey. True, the Gambinos had IBT Local 813 but the Genovese family had 2 of the garbage associations like the Gambinos did.

The Gambinos certainly were always deeper into the drug and sex trade rackets. The Gambinos also had a piece of JFK. The Genovese always specialized more in labor rackets, which is one reason they've always been considered more sophisticated.



Yes.



The Genovese family traditionally represented the Buffalo, New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Detroit families on the Commission. They backed Todaro for boss in Buffalo, Bianco for boss in Boston, and Scarfo for boss in Philadelphia (due much to his ties to Bobby Manna). The Gambinos did also have strong ties to the New England, New Jersey, and Philadelphia families though.

From the 1940s until 1996 the gambinos were the top family in garbage in NYC and they split 50k a month with the luchese family on Long Island. The 2 Jimmy's were there respective generations most powerful garbage gangsters.
Robert Lucchese and Tommy gambino owned a couple companies together but tommy owned separate trucking companies in NY and NJ. The Gallos, Joe Gallo Sr and Jr were players in the garment center.
As far as JFK both families had guys that had truckers on record with wiseguys in both families. Guys like Tony Lee Guerrerri and Peter Defeo.

From the 50s until the 70s Philly was with the gambinos and even when for about 10yrs when scarfo was boss and they were under manna and the chin, guys like gravano and Nicky Russo and tony proto were close to Philly. Stanfa was backed by John gambino,cefalu,mannino etc etc

As far as actual made guys in the family , I beleive from the beginning until the late 60s the Genovese had more members and gambinos had more associates.
I guess in Carlos time the family expanded were once Vito Genovese went to jail, the weside was much more cautious in making people. And it was during this Time period which lasted maybe 20 or so years , the gambinos had actually had more made members than the Genovese family.

Other than Gambinos having control over IBT Local 813, I'm not sure what would make them stronger than the Genovese in garbage. They seemed to cover about equal ground. It certainly seems that way when you read Takedown.The Genovese controlled the garbage local in Jersey, as well as Laborers Local 958 (also a garbage local). Let's not forget about Allie Shades. He was the Genovese counterpart to Jimmy Brown. Failla controlled Queens County Trade Waste Association and the Trade Waste Removers of Greater New York. Malangone controlled the Kings County Trade Waste Association and the Greater New York Waste Paper Association.



For the record, Matty Ianneillo's crew also had interests in the garment center. And the last mob bust in the garment center, back in 1997, involved the Lucchese, Gambino, and Genovese families.

Gah

"Yes."

So can all the power they had during gambino's reign be attributed only to them, or would we have to adjust for the Lucchese factor when comparing them to the Genovese?

Is there any evidence for a Genovese alliance of this type? I know that Gigante had Casso try to kill gotti. Did that come from an alliance, or did they both just hate Gotti and his breach of protocol? Does anyone know how the Genovese dealt with Gotti's idiot son and brother in business dealings? I can't see such a smart secretive group wanting to get too close to someone who would kidnap a talk radio host. (Especially one who looks so gay.)

A related question to this threads topic might be: Have the Colombos always been the weakest?

"The Gambinos did also have strong ties to the New England, New Jersey, and Philadelphia families though."

Are they very connected to the mafia in Canada? Are the Genovese? I know that it was a Bonanno dominated area for a long time, but are they still top dog after the events of the past few years? Do you know if anyone in American LCN is connected to the 'Ndrangheta in Canada? Is any family outside of the five families connected to Canada or Italy at all?

I would say the Profacis/Colombos were probably equal to the Bonannos in the thirties to sixties but stronger than the Bonannos by the time the seventies and eighties rolled around. At that time, the Bonannos were pretty much frozen out of a lot of lucrative rackets which the Colombos, specifically Gerry Lang and Ralph Scopo with construction, shared a piece of with the other Five Families.

By the time Massino took over and the Colombo war started the Bonannos had clearly surpassed the Colombos and arguably even the Luccheses.

Anyone know what his status his today?

Capo? Active?

He is still "only" in his seventies, a relatively ripe age for Genovese capos, so I would imagine he is still active in some capacity.

Under Gambino his family were stronger then the Genovese family, just slightly though I'd say. Under Castellano they were close but the edge goes to the Gambios, since Gotti the Genovese have been number 1, with the Gambinos a strong second amongst the 5 families.

I would say a fair way to classify the two would be to say that the Gambinos may have been the richest and the largest but the Genovese have always been the most respected and most influential, at least among the other crime families in the nation. One's definition of power may coincide with riches and strength while another's may reflect an organization's respect and influence.

Just my opinion but as far as Gambino goes i think after Lucchese died in 67 he was most definitely the first among equals. From 67 to 80 i think the Gambino's were the most influential family. That changed when Angelo Bruno was killed and the Gambino's lost his vote on the commission. Leonetti even said Tieri wanted Caponigro's territory but he also said he always suspected Gigante was more interested in getting his proxy in the top slot in philly so he could control their vote on the commission. After 1980 i think the Genovese regained their top spot with Gigante. But again it's just my opinion.

Personally, the main reason why I classify the Genoveses as being the most influential was that the other families would always use the Genoveses as their liaison with the Commission. Gambino may have been first among equals and maybe even Castellano and Gotti afterwards, but they were just individuals. For the most part, the Genoveses as a whole were looked at with more respect by the non-NY families.

But like you said, it's mainly just a matter of personal opinion.

Ok. So maranzano was the last boss of bosses I agree with that. I see what you guys mean by that now. But you say what I say is opinion when everything you say about the genovese is opinion as well. Just because its in quotes doesn't mean it's fact. Most aficionado's would say during their primes the Gambino's were the most powerful. And how can you say that they've never supplanted them? That's your OPINION. You don't know how much money the Genovese's had.

Maybe later I'll make a gambino family vs genovese family thread.

Haha i really hope your joking

Ill quote the book Takedown:Fall of the last mafia empire

Page 198

"you have to keep in mind that although the Genovese and gambino crime families were pretty much on par with each other in terms of overall power and clout in the city, within the city's private sanitation industry , the gambino faction ALWAYS had the loudest voice"

the argument for both the gambino and genovese families is both pretty strong. I forgot about allie shades, he certainly is a powerhouse in garbage for the genovese and certainly a worthy counterpart to jimmy brown failla.

I do disagree with some of the other posters statements in saying that the genovese family didnt have a good boss; chin gigante was a great boss when he was on the street. his institution of such a high level of secrecy still permeates that family today. chin gigante mad tons of money and was definitely successful in maneuvering his family

From what I can tell, the Genovese family has always been #1, the Gambinos have always been #2 (though one could argue 1A at certain times), while the three smaller families have fluctuated around over the years.



It's primarily the Bonannos that have the links to Canada. Besides the NY families, other families such as New Jersey, Philadelphia, and a few others have had connections to Italy as well over the years.



Alan Longo was indicted as the official captain of that crew back in the early 2000's so I'm not sure what his status is now.



That's what I keep getting at. You have to look at the family as a whole, not just whoever may be the boss at a certain point. The whole point about an organized crime family is it transcends just one guy, even the boss.



First, you've already demonstrated you're hardly in a position to speak for any aficionados. Second, no, I never saw their bank accounts, but it seems the Genovese were considered wealthier than the Gambinos; even when the Gambinos were the larger family. You can also look at their respective rackets in both New York and elsewhere, their national influence, etc. over the years. It seems to me that you've just read the typical books about the Gambinos and not looked into things more deeply. I used to think the same thing about the Gambinos being #1 before I learned more.



That's a good find but, by "loudest," does Cowan mean the most well known or the most influential. Because I won't argue the Gambinos have always been a louder family than the Genovese.



It's ironic (and telling) that they're saying this because no family has had a more consistent and bigger supply of capable leaders than the Genovese family. It's a primary reason why they've been able to maintain their top status for so many years.

It says within the private sanitation industry

I'll quote again
"so far I had gotten nowhere near the biggest catch in the investigation, the powerful gambino Assocation"

"always the loudest voice.......to understand why that was , you have to back to the good old days, Back when "a guy could get his head blown off for nothin" back when a tiny empire builder, the newspapers called the little king.....jimmy squillante"

Between 1944 and 1994 only the 2 Jimmy's ran the private sanitation rackets for the gambinos, jimmy brown and jimmy squillante

Allied shades an equal to jimmy brown
Shit , Jimmy brown was running the private sanatation industry, when malangone was a street hood, 20 years before he would even get made

By counterpart, I mean it got to the point where Malangone was the main Genovese guy in the garbage rackets, like Failla was with the Gambinos. But I'm talking about the Genovese family's garbage interests rivaling the Gambino's as a whole. As I said, if the Gamibnos had an edge, and it would be a slight one at that, it was due to their control of IBT Local 813. Because the Genovese covered just as much ground as the Gambinos did and were more successful in holding onto it.

"It's ironic (and telling) that they're saying this because no family has had a more consistent and bigger supply of capable leaders than the Genovese family"

It is even more ironic that they're known by the name of the guy who seems to have been one of their worst leaders. I guess this is one area were the gambinos have an edge: they're known by the name of their best leader.

I don't know if I would say Genovese was bad. He was ruthless and cunning, surrounded himself with capable subordinates (Catena, Miranda, Lombardo) and groomed a future boss in Chin.

Perhaps he made some enemies along the way and was more than a little reckless, but that's part of what helped make the family the powerhouse of the New York mafia along with the Gambinos. When he went to prison the family was left in more than capable hands to the individuals mentioned above, setting the stage for the family's future secrecy and success at evading law enforcement that it still holds today.

Obviously I was kidding about the gambino family vs genovese family thread dellacroce lol. And no you are going by your opinion ivy. How can you say that they were considered wealthier? How does that work? The Gambino's were considered wealthier and more powerful. Being "considered" and in reality are two different things though. And like it said you haven't seen their bank accounts. So you don't know. Nobody does except them.

You also have to take into account how they left their respective organizations. Gambino was a great boss but, just 10 years after he died, Gotti was running the show. Genovese left a better run organization behind when he died.



I'm not going by my opinion. I'm going by what I've read from those that investigated the mob. It seems most have agreed the Genovese family has been the most affluent Mafia family over the years.

Wow!!! I can't believe I wasted my time reading through this thread. I guess its like watching a trainwreck,....you can't look away. You fuckers like IvyLeague are absolutely fucking pathetic. I find it hard to believe that a person can be such a stonato that he spends hours and hours debating who's bigger and badder, the Gambinos or Genovese. I just can't understand why the fuck it matters that much, and also to you pathetic losers, keep on debating while I and the rest of the world, mobbed up or not, go out and make money instead of talking with other complete fucking morons about who's the best!?!?!? Really, get fucking hold of your life and start living one instead of being a mob groupie and living in a fucking fantasy world. I mean really take an objective look/read through some of these topics and where theg go and how fucking long they go on for! It is truly pathetic and judging by content, its probably best that most of you stay here and continue your pathetic daliances. You're doing a great job of shelving yourselves because God knows you'd fucking fail in the life. I knew I was going to be entertained by alot of idiots here. I wasn't wrong. You people make me embarassed to even have a small reading interest in the mob. Otherwise my life is living it, not fantasizing like MOST of the peons here. Ramble on as your words aren't worth ten paper clips, I don't give a fuck how many quotes you present, books you've fucking read. I'm done here. This website is a fucking complete joke.

Bye

Wait a minute. What did you expect when signing up? Joey Massino, Steve Crea and Dom Cefalu posting?

This from a guy that calls himself Willie potatoes
And I'm all about making money

So you should speak for yourself fuck face

WilliamPotatoes is small potatoes. He's gone.

WilliePotatoes is an absolute moron. No one here is a fanboy. (Maybe he mistook this for an Outfit thread.) If IvyLeague has a list of quotes it's only because some people have asked the same questions several times and cut and paste is more efficient than rewriting. I doubt anyone is here because they are want to be mobsters. I doubt that anyone who watches western movies and read about cowboys wants to rob a train or have a shootout at the OK corral. Nothing is more pathetic than people going on the net to bitch because the don't like conversations which are going on. In real life you can overhear people and it may be hard to avoid. On the internet you can just click that little read button with the "x" in the top right corner. You would have to be a real loser to spend that much time to bitch at a bunch of people whom you yourself deem inconsequential.

Colombos are the most powerful, hands down

For me, Don Carlo is the greatest boss ever for reasons already known. Shadowy, no jail time, rivaled the Genovese Family some say surpassed it at SOME point. He appointed Paul Castellano and maybe he thought that was better than appointing a hot head like Dellacroce (Dellacroce was feuding with the insane Galante!) I'm sure he had his reasons, and I'm sure Paul felt a little isolated and overwhelmed once Carlo was gone. He lacked real protection, but he couldn't cave in either and show he was weak.

As for the Gambinos ever surpassing the Genovese, I highly doubt that. Rivaled, perhaps, albeit not for long. Guys like Luciano, Costello and Genovese headed that family way back. All all-stars against the weaker Mangano, Anastasia but powerful Gambino...

Ivy: Do you keep those Gambino quotes saved on your computer? I think you've used them a hundred times on this board

I agree about Don Carlo, he lead the Gambino's for years, was real close to Angelo Bruno, was joined via their kids marriage to Tommy Lucchese and prior to the Italian civil rights league being launched he always got on with Joe Colombo.
He never did jail time or made headlines the way Gotti did.

Agreed. Except for when Carlo was in charge and handed a strong family to Castellano, the Genoveses were seemingly stronger- at the least, seemed to have stronger leaders. Carlo took over a small family and it seems to have gone backwards after Castellano died. From reports, the leadership of JGotti to Jr to Peter Gotti apparently really hurt the overall family.

Not sure how powerful the Gambinos are today, but it's uncommon for a family gaining power under a shared leadership. Usually that means a lack of a strong individual ready to step into the head position.

Also, if Castellano whacked the Gotti crew, things would not have turned out much better.

Castellano would have gotten a life sentence in Giuliano's RICO case, like the other dons. I guess Tommy Bilotti would have succeeded Big Paul and would have been in way over his head.

The Gambinos as well. I speculate that as of today the Gambinos have the strongest links to Canada, notably Ontario.

What about the Bro-nannos?

What happened in the late 1950s that suddenly made the Gambinos rivaling the Genoveses for the number one spot? Just because Carlo took over all of a sudden they became a force to be reckoned with? I think both families as rivals goes back to the days of D 'Aquila and Masseria. So if you have to choose a timeframe I'd say the 1920s to the early 1990s.

Yeah, they always come in handy when I encounter the many posters who have read a couple books on the mob and are under the impression the Gambinos were always top dog.



The Gambinos are what they have always been - a strong #2. Well, except for the time they were #1A.



Why do you say that?



I think the Genovese was the most powerful from the earliest days up to the late 1950's, with the Gambinos being a strong #2. Around that time, you had Vito Genovese indicted and convicted, not just Carlo Gambino taking over. I don't think the Gambinos started to rival the Genovese overnight but one could argue the Gambinos began to rival them (being #1A) in the 1960's...through the 1970's and 1980's...and to the early 1990's.

I bet only capos now whose calling the shots . Whose is the boss and benny eggs must be close to death him dentico and mario g must all be 100 there crimes paid maybe quit doms boss barney under and some jersey guy consig.

As I've stated, it's mere speculation on my part based on certain details, such as the Gambinos sponsoring Mike Modica and Frank Cali's connections to Canadian mafiosi. When word got around that Vitale was cooperating a Gambino member was send to Montreal to inform Rizzuto. And reports stated that when Rizzuto returned to Canada, he met with representatives from the Five Families in Ontario. If this is true, something tells me that the Gambinos were acting as mediators. But as I've said, mere speculation..



As you've said yourself, Genovese's arrest didn't affect the family much and I don't see how it suddenly made the Gambinos strong enough to be 1a if they weren't that already, unless you could expand upon it.

That's a good point. I agree that, in some ways, the Gambinos rivaled the Genovese already. They had already divied up the private garbage business in the five NY boroughs, as well as the New York and New Jersey waterfronts. They were similar in size. (There's conflicting information on exactly when the Gambinos became slightly larger in membership.) I suppose the tipping point would have been when Gambino became the top boss in New York, which really didn't happen until after Genovese and Lucchese died. During that time, he did have some degree of influence over some of the other NY families, and the Gambinos expanded their relative interests in drugs, porn, etc. So, it may be more appropriate to say the Gambinos were #1A in the 1970's and 1980's.

I was under the impression that the Mangano/Anastasia family was small before Carlo took over and expanded the rackets.

Were they really stronger than the Profaci, Lucchese and Bonanno clans back then?

Yes. And they kept it big. The Gambinos made close to 200 new guys in the 1950s.

How where they allowed to induct so many new men? Didn't the families set a limit for membership? Seems unlikely to me as that would have been perceived as a major threat by the other families. And the books were closed at about the same time when Carlo took over.

Never came across anything suggesting that there was a restriction on the number of new guys the Families were allowed to make. Because of their bigger size, the biggest Families also had a greater number of followers (associates, guys "on the record" etc). The Families were allowed to make anyone they wanted, as long as the new recruits were approved by the bosses when the lists were passed around.

But if a family wants to double in size in only a few years time other bosses aren't going to approve. The fact that each of the Five Families never surpassed a certain size does suggest that there was a limit on membership for each family. I don't buy it that the Gambinos went from a small family to the biggest one in only one decade, surpassing the other smaller families. Why didn't the Bonannos, Colombos or Luccheses came up with such a brilliant idea? If Bonanno just made 500 new men he wouldn't have had so much trouble ordering the murder of Gambino and Lucchese..

Anastasia was the don from '51 to '57. From what I have read, he handed out membership for a hefty price of around $40k. That could have been a reason for the large recruitment, as he stood to make millions. But the rumor of charging fees came from Genovese, who was trying to justify the whacking of Anastasia. So, who knows...

Is Carl Sifakis considered a reputable source? According to his Mafia Encyclopedia, under Carlo Gambino's leadership, "the relatively small Mangano operation became the biggest in New York and the nation." In addition, he wrote "Carlo Gambino took a second string crime family and built it into the Mafia's jewel in the crown, far more wealthy than even the family originally ruled by Lucky Luciano..."

This is all bullshit

The gambinos were always the largest family, even going back to the 1930s
They always had the larger number of associates
By the gambino became boss, the books were closed
In 1956 guys like frank locascio were the last guys made until the early to mid 1970s

For the most part over the last 40 years the families in NYC make members to replace old ones
Sal vitale said he made up dead people from the phone book ,to be able to make new members
And vinny gorgeous was recorded on tape complaining to massino that JO JO Corozzo was making up the names of dead people an trying to sneak in guys that had been convicted of dealing drugs in the past 5 years, and massino laughed because he said "he always tried the same thing"

The Luciano and Mangano (and the Gagliano, to a certain extent) gangs were bigger than the Bonannos and the Profacis from the start as their gangs were older and able to draw on a larger "talent pool", so to speak. The majority of the latter two were Sicilian natives brought over to America in adulthood, whose families were smaller, but generally more tight knit and familial, at least until the next generation. I would assume that when it came time for recruitment, aspiring members would generally want to join the larger and wealthier crime families of Luciano and Mangano, as opposed to the smaller, and largely foreign speaking, Bonannos and Profacis.

From what I understand, the Luciano/Genovese and Mangano/Gambino families have always been the two large NY families. I've read some things that said the Genovese were initially bigger, while others have said the Gambinos were initially bigger. Certainly during part of Carlo's reign as boss, the Gambinos were the biggest, but not by a significant margin. Not in the way those two families are significantly larger than the three smaller NY families.

They didn´t. They have always been a very big Family. Some claim the Gambinos was a merger between two Families in the 1920s (D´Aqila and Mineo).

If the talent pool isn´t there, where would the smaller Families have found x amount of new recruits in order to double their size?. The larger the Family = the larger the group of associates. If the Colombos wanted to double their size in the 1950s, they would have had to bring in every Joe Blow standing on the corner they could find.



Sorry to say, but it´s not.



A crew´s new recriuts were very often born and raised in the same neighborhood controlled by that specific crew. If the neighborhood was controlled by a Profaci crew, the new soldier was recruited by them. If another recruit grew up in another neighborhood controlled by another Family, the new recruit ended up with that Family. I understand what you´re saying, but the new recruits had no choice which Family to join. And besides, why would the new recruit want to join a crew in a different neighborhood he´s not familiar with, led by someone he doesn´t know/been around with? And vice versa...Why would a crew leader take in someone who is virtually unkown to him, someone he can´t vouch for?