Why is the Current Chicago Outfit Such an Enigma?

With the 5 NY families, Philly and New England mostly we all agree on here about the membership numbers and what their involved with. Why though is there always such varying opinions on the Outfit? Not just on here but other sites as well. We know how bad wikipedia can be as a source but I saw something on there recently saying the Genovese were only rivalled in size by the Gambino's and the Outfit.
Also from time to time we get posters on here shouting about how the Outfit has 200+ made guys, run Chicago, have judges, politicians in their pockets etc etc.
Why is this? We don't get people saying the Gambino's have 450 made guys on the street. If we are comparing the Outfit to a current family who are they on a level with?

A made man in the outfit is like a capo in NY, he has a crew of "members" under him and his capo is the street boos of that territory. Th numbers are always off because a made man in th outfit holds more power than one in NY, th "members" of th outfit are the same as a made man in NY, thats th wwy i see it atleast.

A lot of Outfit followers are saying John DiFronzo basically split the Outfit in to two factions once he was released from jail. The criminal Michael Sarno/James Marcello faction who go around fire bombing and threatening peoople, and DiFronzo's own legitimate Elmwood Park crew with Marco D'amico, Joe the Builder, and others. Looking at them as two separate families is a little extreme but in any case DiFronzo doesn't want to make Sarno and seems to want to stick with union bidding and construction stuff while he separates himself from hotheads who want to destroy the town. This is my favorite theory for what's going on in The Outfit, but if it's factual, I'm not sure. The only thing that's certain is DiFronzo has imposed a ban on narcotics trafficking within his own group of associates - due to the death of his son via overdose.

And Daniel's correct, I'm not sure if that's how 'made men' work, but capos have always had their own Underbosses, in a sense.

Where to begin?

An outdated image of the Chicago Outfit is held by some people, more than any other LCN family. I think part of it was due to certain unique factors about the Outfit back in the day. Which, in turn, have led to people still equating just about any and all corruption and organized crime in Chicago with the Outfit. Beyond that, most mob books cover the distant past. So we tend to use the news and more recent cases to shape our view of how things currently are. But, at least compared to the NY families, there hasn't been as much activity in Chicago. So I think an image is frozen in people's minds of the Outfit they read about in Roemer's books or whatever - the Outfit of the 1950's or 1970's.

Though that kind of misinformation on Wikipedia shouldn't surprise anyone, the fact that some really do believe the Outfit rivals the Genovese and Gambinos in size today shows how misguided some are. If we go with just the most recent official figures, and not numbers people pull out of thin air for their own purposes, it's not even comparable. The Genovese family is said to have approximately 200 total members and about 1,000 associates. The Outfit is said to have around 25-30 total members and a little over 100 associates. So you're comparing a total manpower of 1,200 for the Genovese to perhaps 150 for the Outfit. In other words, going by the official figures, the Genovese family is 8 times the size of the Outfit.

I've said it many times. The modern day Chicago mob is much more comparable, in both size and scope of activity, to the other remaining families outside New York - New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia. The only difference, looking at the official figures, is that the feds estimate Chicago to have a bigger ratio of associates to members (5 associates for every member) than the other smaller families (2 associates for every member).

By far the most interesting thing about the Chicago mob is their lack of activity with the other families in the United States. There was a thing with Rudy Fratto having deals with Cleveland mobsters for some gambling and construction deal, which is shocking consider there's still wiseguys in Cleveland. The northeastern families all for one instance or another have communications with each other, i.e. like Nicky Stefanelli who recently killed himself. There doesn't seem to be that with Chicago. The McCormick plaza seems to be the 9/11 to what construction jobs were to the NY families.

The Family Secrets trial seemed to have taken out the older generation and higher ups of that family. I've noticed there seems to be a far older age of those named in indictments vs. the NY families.

To me the Chicago mob is by far the most interesting as there is simply not much to go on for the civilian mob watcher. Philly is easy to find info on, same with New York and the Providence boys. Chicago doesn't seem to warrant the same amount of journalistic interest that the other families do. And when it comes to the Midwestern families....."family". I'd say Chicago is the only one with real structure, Detroit may just be a crew or two.

This, this, this. One thing about Chicago is the lack of recent news on the family, except Family Secrets, which took out guys in their 70's. I'm curious to see the size of the FBI squad on Chicago. I know the Genovese get their own, I think the Gambino's do too. And I've heard that the other 3 NY families have to share a squad --- which shows the manpower and strength of those families.

Michael Sarno's work with the Outlaw Motorcycle gang does show some strength, contrary to what some may think, i.e. why would a "large" family with it's own man power hire out someone else, wouldn't that show that said family needs help? My opinion, this show that the family, or at least Sarno's crew is large enough or violent enough to warrant the Outlaws not to try to screw over the crew, which is an indicator of the strength and activity of the family, or at least Sarno's crew.

What I really want to know is the size of FBI squads for each Midwestern family, as Ivy says, that'd be a great indicator on the activity of the mob out there.

Im new to the Outfit other than Capone is what i need to say first, so the fact that i got that half way righ is actually all thanks to you i think Barrett. Did you post the article about Momo by the guy who worshiped him? In the comments on the article there are many great posts about pputting together a chart for the Outfit at the time of the Momo hit.

I believe only the Genovese family has it's own squad at the moment. Then there's the Gambino/Lucchese squad and the Colombo/Bonanno squad. There's around 50 or so total agents in these NY squads, which is the lowest it's been in a long time. I don't think any of the smaller families outside NY have their own squads. Just individual agents plus whatever resources the local cops put on it.

IMO, there's a few reasons for this.

The Outfit has always been very different for the fact that they are the only thing in town. So I think "official" numbers are different than in NYC. One thing for sure, they have gotten smaller.

They used to have 6 crews and now I've read they are down to 3 or 4. It's been listed, like someone else said, that they they have 25-35 made guys and one hundred associates. This again is confusing because The Outfit makes very few people and knowing who is made is confusing because in the change of them not having a ceremony (not having a ceremony, to having a ceremony, to who knows), so being made can be confusing. Some people think Nick Calabrese made up the making ceremony he testified to and others have said they never got a pin prick or the such.

With the Outfit, being made is like being a Capo in NYC and being an associate is like being a soldier. So is that 100 associates, made guys and workers or just random guys, like bookies and such? Probably somewhere in between.

The Outfit also, from what I have read, has gone extremely low key and quiet since DiFronzo took over. It appears that this seems to be by choice. So is it by choice or is it because they are just really weak?

Also, the outfit is the only thing in town. Like others have said, in NYC the more made guys you have the more powerful the family. I have always thought that if there is no competition why does the number of made guys matter? If I'm the outfit, I stop making guys. They survived for 50-70 years without having a ceremony, why not just stop making people? In thirty years, you'll have no made guys. You'll be "dead".

Like another poster said, I have read that the outfit has been cut into 2 groups, north and south. That the north, run by Difronzo, has gone extremely low key. That DiFronzo doesn't want anybody doing anything that could get him in trouble. They say he makes a ton of money and doesn't want to risk it. Then in the south you have the more traditional crews, doing the work. And the north and south have little interactions. People really don't know who is in charge. Is this split the reason? Are they being sneaky or are they just weak?

Looking at the history of the outfit, even people being made have been a big argument amongst people and police. In NYC it seems people know who the made guys are. Cops and mafia fans, but in Chicago it always unknown. It's been like that for a very long time. It's just secretive. One made guy has ever flipped. Just a different type of thing.

There was a guy that they (FBI and papers) said was extremely high up, who the FBI didn't even know was supposedly made, Al 'Pizza Man" Tornabene. Guy died in 2009, no police record, supposedly was running parts of the outfit. Secretive or is this a sign at how weak the outfit has become? Could see it both ways.

Right about all of that. This is a case where lack of indictments and headlines has to be partially attributed to the leadership. And more importantly on the subject of made guys, it can't be said they're working in the same ways as the five families. Michael Sarno isn't made, yet he's a power player and eligible. Fair enough, he's a bit unstable. But when he wanted his button, he needed permission from Marco D'amico. Marco D'amico himself isn't even made. DiFronzo does things differently.

Talking about lack of indictments, lots of people seem to think DiFronzo is a dry snitch or a snitch. Based on the fact that he wasn't indicted with everyone else in the family secrets trial, even though Nick C said he saw him there in the basement.

Maybe he will be in the often rumored 'Family Secrets 2" trial?

I doubt he's a rat or that there will be a second trial, but lots of idle speculation.

One thing about both St. Louis and Chicago was that they were both deep, deep, deep into the cities' political structures--I think even more so than in the Northeast. Both were able to buy themselves a lot of protection and a lot of secrecy--the SLPD, for example, has never admitted the existence of an LCN family here (not that they have to now, since it's more or less extinct). I think both the Giordanos and the Outfit were protected from on high--in St. L by Mayor Cervantes and about a zillion different aldermen, in Chicago by Daley.

My brother, who lived in Chicago for years, described native Chicagoans as "a breed apart," and the same holds true for their "family." I've never been able to decide whether the Outfit is am LCN family according to the standard definition. I've heard they don't make guys in the traditional way--I've heard they make non-Italians--I've heard that there was tension early on between them and other cities because Capone was a Neapolitan, not a Sicilian--I've heard all kinds of weird stuff about them. Not sure what to believe and what not to believe.

Russo and Roemer aside, a lot of what is said about Chicago seems to be mostly guesswork and rumors.

Oh yeah. I've said this before, but it bears repeating: the flourishing of the Outfit in the past is a symptom of a culture of corruption that had been in place in that city since 1850 or so and will be be around long after the Outfit is gone.

The corruption in Chicago was ridiculous. It is almost hard to comprehend how bad it was and how prevalent. Still could be. They fixed murder trials, named judges, etc, etc.

Pat Marcy controlled the political machine for years as head of the Chicago Democratic Party. He named judges, attorneys, etc,etc. William Hanhardt was the #3 cop in Chicago and was on the Outfit payroll. Dick Cain was chief investigator for the cook county sheriffs department. And these are the ones we know about. How many people, lower than these, don't we know about.

So many governors have been arrested for corruption, so many mayors, it's ridiculous.

Look up operation Gambat.

Another thing about the outfit and made status. Was that Pat Marcy, head of the Chicago Democratic Party was a made guy. No one knew this. Fred Roti, most powerful aldermen for years, was a made guy. Heads of unions, were made guys and no one know knew or cared that they were made guys with legit jobs.

Seems everybody was on the take. Cops, aldermen, city officials. Like someone said, it seems like it's always been this way.

That is where the power came from. Political and police. They paid off so many cops and judges and politicians.

Notice how, even now, people are going way back for their examples. Pat Marcy? Fred Roti? In other discussions I've had people still bring up Gus Alex, the Camel, and even Jake Guzik. Yes, the Outfit was deep into political corruption years ago. But now, it's on a much more limited, localized basis. Not nearly as all encompassing as it once was.

I can't name a single non-Italian that is in a high up position in the hierarchy of the modern day Outfit. And what's more, I personally think people's idea of the hierarchy itself is outdated. This "soldiers are like captains and associates are like soldiers" business. I really haven't seen any evidence that we're still dealing with these large crews where you have the Area Boss, and below him a few Street Bosses, and below each of them several soldiers, and below them several more associates with sub crews of their own.

From what I can tell, just by looking at the info over the past 10-15 years at most, we're dealing with a much smaller, much less hierarchical, much more streamlined, organization. Which is why I find the official estimates of 25-30 members and a little over 100 associates very believable.

Well, yeah, but at least no one mentioned Lenny Patrick.

You just did.

I felt bad for him, left out of the conversation and all.

Still wondering where these 150+ made members the Outfit still had in the 1980s went when they were suddenly estimated to have 50 made members in the early 90s. I suppose most of them died during that time frame.

Well, yeah, I was responding to the previous poster who was talking about the outfit's power in the past based on there political connections. That was my point, the outfit's power into the 80's was ridiculous.

Why would a non-italian in a high up position in today's outfit mean anything? I'm confused by that statement. Are you just stating a fact?

I think the hierarchy is still the same. Why does the size of the crew matter? If there are 3-4 crews and each crew has a boss and each crew boss has 5 soldiers and those soldiers have associates, it's still the same hierarchy. Why would the hierarchy change if the size of the family was smaller?

I agree about the estimates being correct, they only have 3-4 crews, down from 7. So those numbers makes sense. I actually think they have junked the making ceremony and possibly making people all together. I wouldn't be surprised if Difronzo is making the outfit considerably smaller on purpose. By wanting it smaller or not caring anymore, either or, it's smaller.

Well, to give you an idea, just since 2000, there have been 18 Outfit members that have died.




As long as one differentiates between the past and today, there isn't a problem. But there have been more than a few posters who think that level of influence once held by the Outfit still exists.



One of the reasons the folks who claim the Outfit is still as powerful as ever, and why we can't use the same criteria to evaluate it like other families, is because of it's unique traits. The problem is, most of those unique traits don't really apply anymore. One being non-Italians holding high level positions in the organization. It's just another example of how the view held by some (not necessarily you though) of the Outfit is outdated.



I think the hierarchy has changed because the Outfit is a much smaller organization now. They don't need all those rank levels, nor do they have the manpower to fill them. I'd be willing to bet that the crews left in the Outfit are much like crews elsewhere.



You're right, the Outfit did actually become smaller on purpose. They did that by streamlining the organization back in the 1990's by merging crews together.

5+ years ago, 4 remaining crews for the Outfit were cited. More recently, I've seen articles that have cited 2 or 3. And one article did talk about the Outfit now being run in "northern and southern sections." I've wondered if that was the representative of what we've heard more recently about DiFronzo and his more "white collar/legit" wing in the north and the more "blue collar/street rackets" wing in the south.

As for the ceremony, it wouldn't surprise me if they did do away with it. The last one Nick Calabrese was aware of was in the 1980's. Sure, one could argue there are guys in the organization who technically aren't made and yet have made status. But that doesn't change the total manpower over all.

Former Political Boss (First Ward-Chicago) Pat Marcy was born in Chicago to an Italian-American family. His original name was Pasqualino Marchone. Many believe that he changed it hoping that a non-Italian alias would help him stay under the "radar" and advance his political aspirations. In his day, he pulled A LOT of strings.

You know yourself that the Outfit had at least 150 made members in the mid 1970s. So for 100 guys to die within 15 years still seems a bit odd to me. Maybe many of them retired somewhere in the 1980s and the FBI only recognised the remaining active members? If not, either the FBI's estimates were wrong or something really strange happened. I do not question that the Outfit had 150-200 full fledged members until the 1980s.

Because the Outfit didn't start using the blood and fire ceremony until later, and the feds didn't find about it until even later than that, the membership estimates of the Outfit back then are not as solid as they are for other families. So I'm not totally sure about that 150-200 figure.

But, in any event, we've definitely seen a downward trend in the estimates. The CCC estimated about 70 in the late 1990's. Eventually the FBI starting quoting anywhere from 25 to 50 made guys. And most recently, during the "Family Secrets" case, 28 made guys was the number cited. I tend to go with the latest figures because they're going to be more accurate and based on the most intel.

Some may be surprised to know that over 60 Genovese members have died in the last 15 years.

Sorry if that didn't come across as clear as I wanted. I was specifically referring to the outfit's political connections in the 70-80's.

Regarding the outfit becoming two different groups:

From what others have said, this has in fact happened and that the outfit is not really 'a syndicate' anymore. That it's become like NYC, in that there are two unconnected outfits operating in the city.

I don't think it's gotten to that point. At least I haven't seen any proof of that. It's still the same organization, over all.

IVY, any specific place you get your Chicago info from?

It's harder to find info on them, obviously the point of the thread, but I've always searched for places and they always end up going down after a while. Always looking for a good place to get Chicago info.

Thanks.

Except for the recent books on the "Family Secrets" trial, most books on the Outfit are from the fairly distant past. So it's just a matter of reading current news articles and paying attention to current cases.

Here's a few relatively recent articles in case you haven't read them...

http://www.laborers.org/ChicagoMag_Moblite_12_00.htm
http://www.ipsn.org/characters/new_outfit.htm
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=5681103
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-09-30/news/0709300075_1_chicago-outfit-mob-boss-calabrese

I remember you writing that a member on the real deal forum who was considered to be an expert on the Outfit had stated that the Outfit peaked at 150 made members (who went through the ceremony) in the 1970s. So that number actually comes from you. I think it's reasonable to assume that the Outfit had that many back in those days. I'm thinking that they probably even had more in the 1950s, when they were at their height.

Cool. Thanks. I've seen most of those except the ipsn article.

The thing that always made it harder about learning stuff about the outfit is the lack of books. There either stuff about the 40-60's in Chicago or Spilotro in Vegas stuff.

Reading the family secrets books were a breath of fresh air for chicago stuff.

Here's some of the more notable Outfit-related cases over the past decade -


Bookmaking bust
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2000-...-police-officer

Carusos, Lombardo Jr. kicked out of the Laborers Union
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-...ion-union-ousts

The Cicero embezzlement scheme
http://www.ipsn.org/cicero/default.htm

Bingo game scheme
http://www.ipsn.org/bingo.php

Crazy Horse Too strip club in Vegas
http://www.stevemiller4lasvegas.com/FedsRaidMobbedUpBoobBar.html

Hired Truck Program scandal
http://www.ipsn.org/hired_truck_scandal/default.htm

Family Secrets indictment
http://www.ipsn.org/indictments/indictments-oc/default.htm

Video poker machines seized
http://www.suffredin.org/news/newsitem.asp?language=english&newsitemid=3551

Sarno, etc. indictment
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/iteam&id=6836820

Rudy Fratto indictment
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-...t-mob-contracts

Nice. Thanks.

Here's an article I found recently, that I never read before about the unions. You probably have though. Was the most informative about the outfit and unions I have ever read.

http://www.ipsn.org/stier_anderson__malone_reports.htm#The_Persistent_Threat_of_the_Chicago_Outfit

The interesting thing about the Stier report is, if you go through it, most of the mob-related labor racketeering and corruption examples cited seem to be of a residual nature.

Local 330 (associating with organized crime figures)

Local 714 (bid-rigging; put under trusteeship in 2008)

Local 726 (extortion of union members for jobs by former foreman who was an Outfit associate)

Local 727 (business agent had possible mob ties; embezzlement from vision/dental plan)

Local 743 (banned official possibly still have ties to local; current official may have entered into sham CBA's and is involved in video poker business, rigged elections)

Local 781 (banned official may still have contact with local; local may be engaged in business with a benefit service provider run by the son of a slain Outfit associate)

Local 786 (local official and benefits administrator associating with organized crime figures; misappropriation of union funds; Outfit control of a major local provider; use of non-union labor and failure to contribute to benefit funds)

Just to highlight the point of this topic. Over on Dapper Don's blog there is an article naming the 15 most powerful crime bosses in the world. John DiFronzo is number 15 and described as running "one of the largest crime syndicates in the US" Really? This guy is the 15th most powerful crime boss in the world??

Ps, Dapper Don I know this not necessarily your views, its just an article I saw on your blog.

That is correct Nickyscarfo

does anyone have any info on any family operations outside of chicago? ive heard that they have taken over some of the remaining rackets in milwaukee, and that they might still have some low level bookmaking/loansharking operations left in vegas but anywhere else? anything in south florida?

Maybe bookmaking from outside of Chicago, but I'd say that's it.
The Milwaukee family was always interesting

I don't believe the Outfit has any crews elsewhere, if that's what you mean. You read about it having operations in south Florida but, except for maybe some guys going down there to retire, I've never seen any examples. But there are cases that pop up here and there...

Back in 2000 there as an Outfit-connected jewelry theft ring that pulled of scores in Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Minnesota, Texas, Arizona, and California.

In 2003 there was the Crazy Horse Too strip club raid in Las Vegas.

In 2005 an Outfit-connected lawyer was reported to be an investor in a tribal casino boat off the coast of Mexico.

In 2006 there was that bookmaking bust in Rockford.

And, of course, we've always heard about Outfit associate, Michael Posner, and his hotel-casinos down in Aruba. But my understanding it they're relatively small. Not like Caesars Palace or the Mirage.

Going from memory on a RD Outfit chart they have some operatives over in Rockford, though its just a few guys, no capo leading it. Also, some offshore bookmaking I'm sure because they've connected guys from Aruba to DiFronzo.

Not sure what happened with Milwaukee but no one has technically listed them as defunct yet, although no doubt they most definitely are. Nicholas is right, Milwaukee is interesting. You could probably write a book on criminal psychology by reading up on Frank Balistrieri. He was absolutely, positively motivated by the need to lord over and dominate all those within his sphere. Despite arguably being a little less powerful than Felix Alderisio, he dubbed himself 'the most powerful man in Milwaukee' and matter of factly threatened the life of Pat Conte, the biggest heroin dealer in the world at the time. He got off on the smug sense of satisfaction and would often berate his own employees.

Aside from the little bit in the AmericanMafia.com article, I've never seen any examples of the Outfit actually operating in Milwaukee. In fact, I haven't seen any mob news out of Milwaukee in at least the last 25 years. I don't think the feds have to actually state a specific family is defunct. You just have to look at the ones they still view as viable. The ones not on those lists aren't hard to guess about.

I have to agree with Ivy. Just because no one states that a specific family is defunct doesn't mean that's not the case. There hasn't been a case there in a long time. That should be indicative of the state of current affairs.

http://media.wgnradio.com/media/mp3file/...ll_70455696.mp3

This is an absolute must listen for anyone interested in The Chicago Outfit, Henry Hill and Mafia in general. It aired on WGN Radio early this morning.

decent listen, nice to know the outfit has about 200-300 made guys

Thanks, Dap - I thought it was very interesting as well. They also said The Outfit had about 1000 associates.

200-400 members and 1,000 associates of the Outfit? Where do these numbers come from? Especially when an "expert" is quoting them. Good grief.

And incidentally, when was Chicago ever the "Mafia capital" of America?

there all done, theres a 100+ kids still in belief of the colombo family and with sticks guns and steriods there not going nowhere. chicago unless italy intervines its over. the kings and vice lords+pimps+every other set run chi town

Chicago is not even close to a top dog in crime in Chicago but they still have anywhere from 28-50 made members so there still there just not in the traditional sense and how long they will be there is anyones guess but the gangs will never get into loansharking,gambling,unions,or construction bid rigging so they still have there place. Also the Colombos along with the other 4 families in new york will be the last to go so the colombos will be around for awhile and the new generation some are into steriods and drugs but out of the new generation they will still find guys that can make money and not rat although the number of guys of that caliber is and continues to get smaller

The VL's and pimps run Chicago????

Chicago has at least 100+ kids that still believe in it.

There will always be people that believe that in it, it just depends on how smart/tough they are.

Since the gangs won't get into that stuff, that's why the outfit or whatever it is now will always be around. As long as there is people that want to gamble, people that need loans and unions, there will be organized crime in Chicago.

IVY all joking aside I don't know what red tape you'd have to get threw but with all this information you have stored you should write a book or encyclopedia

Which I'm currently in writing....

at least they think they do no political connections leaves the street guys where they will remain

A funny thing happened to The Outfit in Chicago over the last 20 years...guys with legitimate businesses suddenly saw the economic benefits of a booming economy. And a prosperous business in a booming economy isn't just a source of legitimate wealth, it can be a great place to launder money, especially if you have interests in more than one business in a vertical industry. And it's my understanding that the guys on the north side are heavily invested in legit businesses (on top of their daily mob activities) while the guys on the south side rely more heavily on traditional mob activities.

Regardless of the number of members in Chicago, you have a number of Outfit members in their 50's and 60's enjoying a very comfortable lifestyle and I really don't think they want their applecart upset.

In the words of Stringer Bell, "We're the bank..."

Yes they are...but they still claim their corners, albeit quietly.

The IPSN web site and the laborers union web site were real eye-openers when I stumbled on those a couple of years ago. Excellent resources for information on Chicago.

Hy Larner. No reason for mentioning his name other than to make a gratuitous reference to one of the more enigmatic people in Outfit history...

tony b.

its over, all the gangs in the north east call chi town the motherland which it is across the map. but there lcn is dead buy my guess, maybe rich kids trying to follow in there great gran parents steps.the kid who recorded his gangster father killed it, in then he wrote a book. i want to read about colombo's whitey bulger frankie blue eyes another scarpa getting swept under the rug. i hope his victims familys put in there lawsuits, you know how that goes.

Well, Nick Calabrese was the one that really helped bring about the "Family Secrets" case. Frank Jr. helped too, of course. But it's not like they, or that case alone, was the final nail in the Outfit's coffin. Just the latest nail. The Outfit is still there. Albeit, simply one of the smaller remaining families outside New York.

Here's a statement by T.Marcus Funk, former Federal Prosecutor about the outfit.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/video?id=7779664

Some may have seen it before, some may have not. Don't know how old it is but it took place after the Family Secrets trial.

Basically agreed. The Chicago Outfit is not anywhere what it used to be. They downsized from 6 street crews to 4. The number of ACTIVE made guys on the street, according to Nick Calabrese, was about 60. However, that was many years ago. The Number of active made guys is probably 40 or less. The Feds estimated 28, however, they don't know all the made guys. There are 'sleepers' in Chicago. Chicago Outfit never had a lot of made guys like the New York Families, even in their heyday back in the 1960's and 1970's. The soldiers in each crew work under made guys. it takes many, many years to become a made guy in The Outfit. The Made guys in the past were equal to the 'Captains' in the New York Families. Collectively, New York has always been the Strongest Mafia City in America. After New York, was Chicago. Presently in 2013, it's hard to say how strong the Outfit really is because of the intense secrecy. There has only been ONE made man informant in the history of the Outfit. The Outfit still has some power but it is more concentrated in Union activity, Construction, and offshore bookmaking along with legitimate business. The traditional street rackets of Bookmaking, Loan Sharking and Poker machines still exist but to a much lesser degree. In particular, the Loan Sharking racket is at a very low level. In Bookmaking, when a bettor gets way behind in payments, the Outfit tends to cut them off from any further betting rather than trying to collect with heavy muscle like the past. It's simply too risky. The Outfit is afraid to kill anybody which really shows a sign of weakness. There have been only 3 Outfit related hits in 13 years.

Does the outfit engage in drug trafficking at all? Or is it all really Gambling and Loan Sharking, bid rigging e.t.c.?

No, Drug trafficking is a big no no in Chicago. However, there has been one way around it. There have been a few made guys, (more in the past) who would LOAN money out to a drug trafficker in the form of a juice loan. Then a couple of soldiers in the crew would be the collectors of the payments. That was and is how they get around that rule. There is no hands on drug trafficking. IF it was ever done hands on, and the bosses knew about it, the person would be killed. Willie Messino's nephew (Chris Cardi) Outfit soldier who worked under Willie as a collector, went to jail years ago for 'hands on' drug trafficking on the side. When he got out of prison, he was shot and killed at a hot dog business his wife. Willie couldn't say anything about it.

Ivy League, You are correct. In the old days, The Outfit never had a making ceremony. In Fact, Giancana thought it was silly and even made fun of it on an F.B.I. secret recording. A man was considered made with a handshake, party thrown in his honor, and most importantly, being PUT IN CHARGE OF SOMETHING. Everyone knew that this man had basically risen from a soldier to a made guy. Made guys are in charge of things and have soldiers who work under them. Joey Auippa, introduced the making ceremony. If the Outfit, in 1975, had 240 or so guys who actually BELONGED to one of the 6 crews, maybe 25%, or 60 let's say, were made guys. The Outfit has downsized to 4 crews. The Outfit was NEVER divided into 2 groups. The Outfit is ONE group of 4 Street Crews, much like a Cartel. The dominant Group is Elmwood Park. The other 3 Crews are partnered in one way or another with Elmwood Park. John DiFronzo, Pete DiFronzo & Marco D'Amico all belong to Elmwood Park. Joe Andriacchi is more associated with the Grand Ave. Crew since Joey Lombardo is gone. Andriacchi and Lombardo are cousins. Also, Grand Ave. is almost an extension of Elmwood Park, (even though it is a different Crew), because Both DiFronzo's, Lombardo & Andriacchi all came from Grand Ave. In the final tally, The Grand Ave. men ended up dominating the Outfit over the Taylor St. men (Giancana's old Crew) when Auippa (Cicero) took over with Cerone ( Elmwood Park) in 1970. Cerone & Accardo also both came from Grand Ave. Auippa was born and raised in Melrose Park.

Did New York have Chicago changed the ceremony?

No. Joey Auippa, who was very traditional, started using the formal ceremony.

I believe Aiuppa initiated the ceremony right around the time he allowed the East Coast families to take over AC as long as they stayed away from Vegas. Perhaps it was a way to legitimize the Outfit in the eyes of east coast families or perhaps it was a way for Aiuppa to gain more loyalty.

In reality, the Outfit was much less of an ethnic gang. Still dominated by Italians but by the 1980s or so you didn't have as many guys active who could actually speak Italian fluently or understand what the fuck was being said.

The guy on WGN, RIchard Lindberg, is not very good with facts or data.

If you look at his books--which are actually a great concept--"Return to the Crime" and "Return Again to the Scene of the Crime" on Amazon, you will see readers raking him over the coals for countless factual errors.

"It's estimated that there are between 200-400 made members of the Chicago Outfit today."

Uh... by whom? I've never heard that number in my life!

When they asked this guy to talk about this he should have said "I don't really know much about that. Sorry."

Johnnynonos, I agree with you 100%. The Chicago Outfit is structured differently than New York and years ago didn't have the East Coast pricking your finger Ceremony. New York and Chicago are like two Companies in the same business that are organized differently and actually have some philosophical differences about a few things. The Outfit NEVER had over 75 made members EVER in their entire history. At their peak in the early 1960's, there were about 75 made guys and 225 soldiers. Soldiers are NOT made guys in Chicago. They work for the made guys and assist them in doing 'BUSINESS' with the street associates ( 25% street bookies, bar owners with poker machines etc.) People should stop talking about the Outfit like it's a carbon copy of a New York Family, stop comparing it to a New York Family, and shut the fuck up and truthfully say 'I'm sorry but I really don't know much about Chicago only that it's different than New York'. That is an answer I can respect.

Sounds about right. People tend to really inflate things for some reason. I don't know why. Guess it's just like "fish stories."

I am interested (less so than I once was, but still interested) in the Outfit, not really a "fan" or anything, and I don't find it less interesting if there are currently 20-something made guys or 50.

In fact I find it more interesting these days because it is something that in my opinion is an artifact of another era that is essentially on its death bed.

I would love to get in DiFronzo's or Lombardo's brain and hear EVERYTHING they know... that would really be interesting! They could tell you virtually the entire history of the Outfit from a true insider's perspective.

But... it will probably never happen.

On some level I think most of these people are extremely, extremely ashamed of what they've done. So no one in the end really tells the whole, entire, ugly story.

I've been traipsing around this board for close to a week now. Some of the responses from members here are absolutely laughable at best.

This ivyleague miscreant is the very last person anyone should be taking seriously in regards to the Chicago outfit. The same goes for this jonnonos character. Someone posted on the city data website under the same name. Sounds like the classic brown nosing clown that parks outside of Bridgeport & Grand Ave hangouts, hoping to see a murder or something heh. And when it doesn't happen, well, the outfit is obviously on it's death bed. You can actually run into some serious trouble messing around like that, hopefully you've let up. And I'm convinced that both of these fools may be, in fact, be employed by some Outfit guys, and commissioned to go around to various gangster enthusiast fan websites, derailing myths that the Outfit is in full swing LOL. Their claims are that ridiculous.

All kidding aside, the Outfit is set up the way it is so as to confuse grubby snoop types a la ivyleague & johnnynose. And it's worked beautifully.

In regards to the outfit & it's current state, there are well over half a million Italians within the greater Chicagoland area. Places like East Bridgeport, downtown Berwyn, the streets of Lombard, and especially the nightlife strips along grand & Harlem in Melrose/elmwood park, ripe with pool halls & social clubs that cater specifically to Italians in their 20s/30s, are breeding grounds for younger Italian men looking to get into organized crime. Folks like Marco D'Amico & Tootsie, etc are irrelevant in the street game. The Outfit has plenty of up & comers, believe it.

elmwoodparker & a few others seem to be the only ones with their heads on straight, and not some hermit from Utah with high speed internet & a propensity for scouring bogus ipsn documents. It's actually a wonder this ivyleague fella hasn't been banned yet. He/she seems like the primary fire starter around here, and yet someone else is always to blame.

Anyways, on topic, elmwoodparker I will disagree with you on one thing: Jimmy I is a Cicero man (not Chinatown) through & through, and is the top guy down there, second in seniority throughout the entire org only to JD.

He should have learned in that week that we won't accept flaming on the board. One post, and *POOF*, he's gone!

If you can't act civilly to other members you'll follow this guy.

mikesugarshack, I accept your word on Jimmy I. I wasn't sure if he was with 26th St. or Cicero. He seemed to be connected to both. Jimmy I is a big heavy. No question. The Outfit rewards guys like that when they do their time. Solly D. is another one. Anyway, thank you for your kind words. I was only trying to educate some of these people, in particular, about the past concerning the Structure of the Outfit and how it was different than New York. Wouldn't you agree that in Chicago there is a difference between Soldiers who belong to the Crew and Associates who do 'Business' with the Crew like the 25% street books or the bar owners that have poker machines? Those guys are associates. The guys who collect and work the phones on the inside are soldiers who belong to the crew working under made guys. I think this guy Ivy is a little sick in the head and really doesn't know shit about Chicago.

You just kicked off an active Chicago guy, u realize that lol?

Jimmy I is actually a Taylor Street guy who worked for Torello and Ferriola and the Cicero crew in the 70s and 80s. He was working with the Caruso's when he got out of prison in the 1990s and remains close with Toots and Bruno, though I agree he stayed a Cicero guy and was working with the Spanos in early 2000. Following his last prison stretch, I believe he returned to Cicero who 26th Street reports into. 26th Street to Cicero is like Grand Ave is to Elmwood Park.

Not active anymore.

LOL. That guy got knocked down.

For the record, I have never parked outside Bridgeport or Grand Ave. "waiting for a murder to happen."

If I had, I would still be there.

Anyway, this person's one assertion of "substance" is patently ridiculous. "There are more than half a million Italians in Chicagoland, so the Outfit must be size x."

According to that "logic," we must have an enormous IRA contingent as well. Probably between 50,000-6,000,000 "made guys" I would guess.

It's good these threads are strictly monitered. The Outfit fanboys--grown men who for whatever reason have their self-esteem tied up in their worship of the mob--have destroyed other organized crime forums with the apoplectic spasms of vitriol they unleash whenever someone denigrates the power of their all-powerful mob!

BTW Sugarshack, Sam Giancana was a scrunch-faced psychopathic f***kin' loser who wouldn't have cut it as a bowling alley manager in the real world.

Momo was a fuckin pinsetter!!

Weak and obvious trolls.

Hahhahahahaha...totally. Actually he took an IQ test in prison and he was borderline mentally disabled. True story. I think he scored less than 90, which at the time classified him as an "imbecile."

His great skill seems to have been killing people indiscriminately.

Anyway, a lot of these odd Chicago posters who worship the Outfit absolutely worship Sam Giancana. It is kind of funny, really. They sit around talking about him like he's Paul Bunyun!

The jealousy from fly-over state posters is really laughable at this point. Each one has a giant chip on their shoulders obvious to anyone. Maybe there is an Olive Garden at their closest mall...maybe Goodfellas is on TNT again...any little excuse to jump to the internet to talk tough.

I though NoNos was a Chicago guy?

And I'm just breaking balls, same as you always do at the expense of New York. But if it makes you feel any better, I personally feel that most wiseguys are morons. Whether they're from New York, Chicago or Timbuktu.

I'm from Chicago and I'm interested in the Outfit, I've just noticed that some of the Chicago posters on here, and in other forums, have a near fetish worship of Sam Giancana, and take it very, very personally if anyone is of the opinion that the Outfit is less than an omniscent, all-powerful criminal organization.

I think we're all on the same page.

IQ tests, especially back then, were notorious for being culturally biased. Carmine Galante scored even lower. I seriously doubt either one had an IQ that was below average. If they were to take a morality test they'd score low and high on a psychopathy test. They are evil criminals, case closed. My only interest is historical. Anyone who looks up to Mafiosi as some sort of role model has serious moral problems him or herself.

I was just going to post that Faithful1 about Galante scoring a similar IQ number in prison. Both Galante and Giancana were not imbeciles. Homicidal psychopaths, yes, but neither was an imbecile. Though i admit i did laugh when i read that in Galantes Fbi file.

I know, I know.

Plus the test was while he was in juvy, so he probably just half filled it out, not really caring about it.

Probably.

How could you say that about Momo? The man was a genius...no fuck he was a GOD!

LOL! You guys are too much. Remember when RFK told Giancana he "giggled like a little girl"? You know Momo would of just loved to put an icepick into Kennedys head.

It's like the old SNL skit on Bill Brasky.

If you are really from Chicago then you should stick with us my friend. Outfit guys are flocking to these boards right now and we should keep them coming.

What the fuck is this "us" shit? You have some agenda here?

Anyone is welcome AS LONG AS THEY BEHAVE AND FOLLOW BOARD RULES. Your other Chicago friend, just gone, is an example of the treatment anyone flaming will get.

I really only read/respond to the threads when there is something interesting to talk about, which given the current state of the Outfit is almost never.

I sort of reached my limit with my interest in the historical stuff.

I hope more Chicago guys do come to the board, if they have anything interesting to say.

jonnynonos, Talk about fetish. Look at the profile of Ivy league. He has pictures of all these New York mafia guys on his profile like he worships them. I stopped arguing with Ivy because he doesn't really know shit about the Outfit. He only knows what he reads on the internet. In 1997, the feds said that the Outfit had 70 made members with 3 street crews and 700 to 1200 associates! Then in 2007, the feds said there were 28 or 30 made guys with over 100 associates. Okay, I can understand where the made guys total went down, but WHAT HAPPENED TO THE 700 TO 1200 ASSOCIATES THAT THE FEDS SAID WERE WITH THE OUTFIT 10 YEARS EARLIER???? THEY ALL DISAPPEARED OVER NIGHT???

What profile? I can't see any on his profile on this site.

Hmmm...personally I think "associates" is a pretty vague term. It could mean anything from a bookie to a realtor who looks the other way.

None of us will ever really know a lot of the nuances.

I do think there is merit, though, in the idea that if no one is being busted for anything, activity is likely down.

Harry Aleman was arrested literally 20 times. I don't buy the idea that the Outfit just got smarter and no one gets pinched for anything anymore.

That's the reason i'm always skeptical of Chicago street guys, not to mention it's usually Chicago posters who disagree with anything showing them as a mid level family, which it seems the FBI believe at least.

Look at the 1997 Chicago Crime Commission Report that state that there were 70 made guys in the Outfit and 700 to 1,200 associates. How could there only be 100 associates 10 years later???? They also said in 1997 there were 3 Crews and now there are 4??? The feds change their story because they really don't know. That's the point Einstein. However, I can play the same game as you and say that from 1997 the membership of the Outfit went down approximately 50% or more. (From 70 to maybe 30) So, the associates would go down to 350 TO 600 OR MAYBE EVEN A LITTLE LOWER like 300 to 500. I choose to quote this F.B.I. Report. I have my report, (which lists my uncle on there under the prison section) and you can believe your F.B.I.report. THEY BOTH CAN'T BE CORRECT. There is no way the number of assocates went from 1,000 to 100 in 10 years. No fucking way. This leads to the final point. You can't take what the Feds say literally.

It's pretty obvious you have a fascination with Ivy League but you must stop showing it off. This whole NY/Chicago "feud" is not gonna be allowed here.

What NY Mafia guys on his profile? Do you mean the avatars of those he has added as UBB BUddies??

That's what i was thinking Ivy's avatar is a pic of the actor Michael Shannon.

Elwood Park, I'm sure you know a lot and I know who your uncle is. I've read maybe 15 books on the Outfit and probably 10s of thousands of articles and I have newsfeeds set up to send me any information that comes out. And I also know a few people, and I've read virtually everything ever posted on ANP, and by that I mean the threads too.

It is my opinion that the Outfit is on it's last legs with less than two dozen hardcore or made guys and who knows how many "associates."

If you choose to believe otherwise, so be it.

If you have any compelling evidence that leads you to your conclusion, I would love to read it.

The Outfit is on its last leg with the way they used to do business. You're right. But, they have new ways to do older things that got many of them in trouble. It's more of a white collar way of doing things. I was only trying to show how the Crime Commission Reports sometimes are conflicting and you can't go 100% by them. I have no quarrel with you at all. In fact, I even agreed with you on one of your other postings. There was another guy who liked me and didn't think much of you. you. It WAS NOT ME. Sincerely, Elmwood Parker.

That big difference between the CCC's associates estimate and the later one from the feds likely results from how the CCC tends to give the greatest possible claim as to the scope of the Outfit. So I imagine that the CCC probably defined anyone who had some kind of relationship (either long-term or temporary/opportunistic - I believe the Outfit chart made by Scott Bernstein et al uses a similar loose definition of associate), while the feds were going by a much stricter standard - probably full-time active gangsters working in crews under soldiers, along with "legitimate" businessmen/politicians/union guys/etc. who actively aided and abetted the Outfit (I believe the aforementioned chart goes ahead and lists these kinds of associates as "soldiers", regardless of made status).

And as someone said, IQ tests are a horrible indicator of native intelligence; they are more a test of whether someone has received a formal education that would prepare them to do well on an IQ test. Someone who was a very sharp guy in terms of business sense and street smarts but quit school early on probably wouldn't do that great on an IQ test; they'd also probably have an indifferent half-assed approach to the test that would also give them an artificially low score.

No, we have to go by what the Chicago Crime Commission said because they got their information from the Feds. The Report was verified by the F.B.I. No, we must do it Ivy League's way and that is that we only go by Government reports, nothing else matters. I'm sorry but in 1997 there were between 700 and 1,200 Associates, and 70 made men. We have NO Right to question the government on any of their reports. They know about these matters much more than any of us.

Morality is superficial. My two cents.

I'm a Chicago guy, don't post a ton but usually check the boards and have a pretty decent understanding of things, can definitely weigh in but not if just to stir the pot

On the audio that starts at 3:15 - is this Jimmy I?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0HdSp7lzTw

First, I don't know who you're looking at, or if you're just lying, but I don't have any photos of anyone on my profile.

Second, even though I've now said it twice in two different threads, I guess I have to do it one more time.

The 70 member figure given by the CCC in 1997 was just an estimate. And if you take away the Outfit members who have died since then, it matches up with the 28-30 members cited by the FBI in 2007.

As for the associates, it's going to be a more flexible figure, given the fact that definitions of what makes an associate differs. But the Outfit's smaller core of made members today makes a little over 100 associates more plausible than 700-1,200 associates.

Yes that is...that tape was played in court and earned him a 5 year jail sentence in 1980.