Giancana vs Accardo

All the documentaries I have watched say that Accardo was always the top dog even when Giancana was boss the one who had the final say was Accardo. Is this true? Even with Giancana being official boss did Accardo have the final say and did Sam know this, did the soldiers know who was the "real" boss?
If Sam gave an order would his underlings act or would they wait for the Big Tuna to weigh in ?
Thank you for your time.

I think it is widely accepted that Paul "the Waiter" Ricca was the boss, with Tony Accardo as second in command. Giancana was appointed to run things on a day to day basis after Accardo got indicted for tax evasion, but all major decisions went through Ricca and Accardo.

After Ricca died, Accardo was the undisputed leader of the Chicago Outfit. Giancana and Accardo had a falling out over Giancana's highly publicized "lifesytle".

Good question. The fact is, Accardo had the power to exile Giancana, to murder Giancana, and in my opinion, most tellingly, phase Giancana out and give more and more power to a successor of his choice, Teets Battaglia. Accardo's ultimate power was retaining sole rights to who gets to wear the 'boss' title. Giancana was somewhere between Front Boss and Street Boss. Accardo would have the public believe Giancana was the boss, while in reality he only handled the day to day affairs. Murder contracts had to go through Accardo first, while Accardo was able to order a string of 11 murders without Giancana's say. Something else to consider, Jackie Cerone was Giancana's Underboss, yet in later years he would be part of the plot to murder him, so again, Accardo was at all times the ultimate power.

Just for the record, Giancana earned his promotion because he was a good and creative earner. He took notice of the African-American policy racket and came up with a plan to take it for himself and the rest of the Outfit. Seriously impressed Accardo.

Paul "the Waiter" Ricca is always left out of every Outfit story i see, why? Will someone explain how it all really went down?

And by the3 time Momo made an order he has already consulted with the tuna.

When Ricca was released from prison after the Hollywood Extortion Case, he and Accardo ruled together.

I for one would love to hear all you know about the plot to murder Momo.

As would I, please enlighten us !

As a matter of fact if you will give me a time you plan to post this info, i want to see tickets....

This took me a long time to find again. I believe I found something similar on ganglandchicago, a cool new site. Unfortunately, the information may have appeared from where I've just found it, on Wikipedia, which isn't too trustworthy. In any case, 'Prio' is Ross Prio, who was an insanely feared Outfit capo who amassed a huge fortune, but was never in much of an administrative position as all the other capos would later be. I remembered this because I found it a few nights ago and took it down in my notes.



The ugly thing about this quote is it seems unfortunately similar to the story of the FBI tipping off Frankie the X Esposito that Cerone was going to kill him. Take it for what it is.

I keep notes on interesting stuff I find on the non-NY families. If you all ever need them, PM me.

Awesome info. I thought you were talking about the actual hit that went down. Id like to have any note you want to send me what so ever i dont mind reading them at all.

I have an article from a legitimate reporter who is unfortunately a little delusional with his love for Sam Giancana. He has an interesting take on what went down, claims to have reached it through talking with Outfit members, but more than anything it's a picture of mob fanboyism. http://americannewspost.com/joseph-fosco/3324/sam-moe-giancana/

I'll send you some stuff, Daniel.

Thanks for all the info man, I really appreciate it. So Giancana was not delusional in that he knew Accardo was the man in charge. At the time of his death how many people in the Outfit would have been loyal to Momo? Was he a legit threat to Accardo? Also if it isn't too much trouble could you please PM me the details of his death? Who was the trigger man and how did they managed to get him while the police were doing surveillance on his house?

Muss,
http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...1061#Post641061

Scoll down the side and you will find a fine post about the Giancana murder. It was posted not that long ago. I can´t remember who posted it but the post is great!

Well, there really never will be a conclusive answer for the hit that went down on Giancana. Your best bet is to look in to Dominick Blasi, the most likely shooter. Other than that, it's hard to look in to the murder without getting in to conspiracies involving the JFK assassination. If you want, look some of those up and you'll surely find some info.

As for the power structure, if Giancana was required to check with Accardo on every single one of the 80 murders committed during his reign, then he knew who was boss. Next, that's a good question about loyalty. Of the Chicago Outfit, it's most torturous members were William Daddano, Fiore Buccieri, Tony Spilotro, Turk Torello, and Mad Sam Destefano. 3 out of 5 of these men were absolutely, positively loyal to Giancana. Mad Sam loved 'Mooney', Daddano tortured a guy just for embarrassing Sam (which terrified the rest of the Outfit, pretty funny). The biggest factor, however, was Fiore Buccieri. One thing that's certain, the Accardo/Cerone faction wouldn't have acted against Sam if Buccieri were alive. Conveniently, Buccieri died soon before the hit took place. Sam had plenty of supporters among the rank and file as well. For instance, Chuckie English badmouthed every new leader that succeeded Sam, and got shot in the face for it. No Nose DiFronzo set that hit up.

There's a theory that Sam's inner circle started getting killed off before they went after Sam. The big basis for this is that Richard Cain, Giancana's courier, was killed a year before. It's something to look in to.

Thanks again man, really appreciate it.

So according to the article Momo was murdered while others were in the house? Very interesting.

So basically if Giancana had a suspicion that he was a marked man and went to war, he didn't have the man power to overthrow Accardo, and certainly not after he had lost three of his most important contacts in Sam Battaglia, Fiore Buccieri and Willie Daddono.

Cain's wikipedia page makes a references of his involvement into the investigation of Tony Accardo in 1960 and having "extensive knowledge of Outfit operations" which led to Accardo's conviction, undoubtedly given to him by Giancana

Sam Battaglia is an interesting case. Not much is known about him except he was a street guy and absolute, positively brutal. When his juice customers were behind on debt, they would either be severely beaten with a bat, or killed on the spot. But anyway, towards the end of Giancana's reign Accardo was giving more and more power to Battaglia. Ostensibly he was a huge Giancana supporter, but in a sense he was helping Accardo sap Giancana's power. Maybe he didn't put it together, I don't know.

Giancana's real support came from the original members of his 42 Gang. It was probably an oversight on Accardo and Ricca's part to have promoted so many of these men to high positions, at any point in time. Luckily, you're right, they were conveniently dead or in jail. Most of them.

Good artice but the comment section is even better. It explains the structure of tu Outfit a little better to me. The way it looks to me and i could be wrong is that they have it set up in Chicago to funnel power up to the made men who are basically like a capo in New York. Under the made men are the "members" of the gang i guess you could say, this makes the capo off th crews basically like a boss of theirvown family with underboss and all. Like ive said many times i have no clue how the administration works. Another interesting note is that the author seems to think the guy who is currently the Outfit's boss was part of the hit team.

in all honesty, accardo should never, ever be mentioned in the same breath as Moe giancana. Accardo never held the absolute top spot in the outfit, he was always a front boss & consigliere. It's not that he wasn't good enough, he just didn't have that temperament and didn't want to sit on top. When giancana, was boss, he was boss. Ricca had the final say on things, but adored moe and trusted him. Back during the Moe reign, it was Ricca/Giancana vs. Accardo/Cerone, so basically Taylor st. vs. Grand ave, and its quite obvious who the more powerful crew was. Moe giancana honestly thought very poorly of aiuppa/Cerone/accardo. Also, aiuppa & Cerone were the ones that masterminded the Giancana murder plot. Aiuppa/Cerone ran the outfit from the time Milwaukee Phil passed to the time of the Vegas trial. Take a look at the family secrets dinner photo and Obrien is seated at the head of the table. Accardo was consigliere at best during those years.

anyways just thought I would add, cheers.

Yes, those descriptions of the outfit structure are very informative. Gives you a very good and detailed description, which all make sense. Lots of good info into this discussions.

From what I have read, this seems to be a general theory and seems to be backed up by a few people. Makes sense.

From what I have read, everything in Chicago is crew based. So who has the most powerful crew/strongest power base is boss. So when you lose your crew, you lose your power. So when Giancana's guys all were killed, his power base was gone, and therefor he could be taken out.

Also, it seems, that lots of bosses had soldiers who were direct with them instead of staying with the crew which also added to a bosses power.

Theory? Try common knowledge. Giancana was the most well liked, well respected don of all time in Chicago, of course you'd have to take out everyone close to him before you go in for the lion kill, and those that can be persuaded you reward for betrayal. Really, they had to wait for Ricca to pass before killing Moe, that was the main thing. But DeStefano, Cain, etc weren't just flattened for no reason. DeStafano getting popped for being a media nut is bullshit, the Outfit didn't give a fuck about that, he was one of the most prolific, effective juice guys in the country. But he was loyal to Moe, and Aiuppa/Cerone knew that guys that were fiercely loyal to Moe would never comply with them/respect them. Giancana's passing was when Cicero via Joey Aiuppa regained power, and you had the beginning of the Aiuppa/Cerone era, with each crew being like its own separate, mini family, and the top crew being the one the boss belonged to.

PP I will go more into all of that in the Fratto topic a little bit later, I apologize for the delay.

So who were the people close to momo that got killed b4him.

The big ones were Nicoletti & Dyno destefano. Lots of Taylor st. guys were bought off by Aiuppa, and more or less "forced" into the new regime. You have to keep in mind, that during that time period, Cicero (Aiuppa, Torello, Lapietra, etc) & Grand Ave (Accardo & Cerone) teamed up to overthrow the Taylor St juggernaut. Aiuppa literally went in & "politely" excused Ricca & Moe's guys from their posts (forced Skids to step down as Chinatown boss & implanted Lapietra) and replaced them with people he trusted from Cicero. It was put out on the street in 74-75 that anyone that was rumoured to be remotely fraternizing/supporting giancana was to be flattened immediately, no questions.

people sound like idiots kissing giancanas ass

he answered to paul ricca just like everybody else in the syndicate

he got booted for being too hot and then murdered in his basement

how does that sound like the main man in charge?

I've spent the last year looking into this deal about Giancana and Accardo.. Basically what you stated Is what I found so far in my research. I'm still in the process of emailing people and requesting telephone interviews.

Basically what I've been told is both answered to Ricca. But Ricca went away in around 1959 on IRS problems (he also pulled some time in the 40's). Accardo was also having problems with the IRS and was actually convicted, but won on appeal. Ricca and Accardo both were trying to stay out of the lime lite for obvious reasons and around 1957 made Giancana the"day-to-day" boss of the outfit. Both Ricca and Accardo knew very well that the boss of "The Outfi" would have a bulls eye on his back. This was one of the main reasons the position of BOSS was created. Ricca and Accardo retained enormous power and influence, but allowed Giancana to take care of business.

Also, around 1957 the FBI (Roemer & Co.) came to town. I'm sure all forum members are familiar with the Top Hoodlum Program and Lockstep that was instituted by the FBI. These are facts documented by the FBI and all Outfit historians.

Giancana was apparently a money making son-of-a-gun and this pleased Ricca and Accardo. But there was another big problem developing. Mooney was drawing way too much attention because of his association with movie stars, entertainers and his involvement with the Castro conspiracy. He also had a big falling out with the Kennedys. I'm sure you folks have read this numerous times so there's no reason to go over it again.

Early in the 1960's newspapers, magazines and tabloids were showing pictures of Giancana with Frank Sinatra, Phyllis McGuire and others, on the front page of their respective publications. About the same time Giancana started missing meetings and not showing up for Outfit business. Members of the Outfit started complaining and eventually Murray Humphreys approached Ricca and Accardo expressing his concern. My understanding is that Accardo talked with Giancana and cautioned him about staying low out of the lime lite, etc. Giancana didn't take heed and continued his flamboyant lifestyle. Ricca, who had just gotten out of prison, and Accardo, who had just beaten a tax case, became frustrated and decided to replace Giancana. Around 1966 Giancana was removed. The actual details of the removal are sketchy. Giancana stated that "Tony Accardo ran me out of Chicago." Who knows how these things played out? But Giancana did leave and spent the next seven years in Mexico.

Ricca passed away in 1972 and Accardo was left to advise and rule on certain
matters relative to Outfit business. Giancana's old Taylor St. Crew either died or were systematically eliminated ( some apparently changed sides) during this time.

Giancana was kidnapped by Mexican officials and sent back to Chicago in the early 70's. This pretty much sealed the fate of Giancana. On June 19, 1975 he was shot to death in the basement of his home while preparing a meal for himself or someone.

Sam Battaglia was installed as Boss by Accardo.

Giancana and Accardo were very powerful, cunning, treacherous mobsters. At one time (late 50's early 60's) Giancana was probably the most powerful mobster in America. This was great for Ricca and Accardo because Giancana was making so much money........and that was good for business. Oh, one other thing that is worth mentioning is that some research indicates that Giancana refused to share some of his earnings with The Outfit. At this point I have not found any supporting evidence if the failure to share occurred before he went to Mexico. There is evidence that he refused to share earnings after he was sent to Mexico.

Accardo was the most successful of all Outfit bosses. His longevity and never spending time in jail (some reports indicate he did spend a night or two in jail) speaks volumes about his criminal ability.

Most all the research I did was from the Internet, books and individuals with whom I conducted telephone conversations. All with whom I talked said basically the same thing: Accardo survived and Giancana didn't.

A couple of points to keep in mind. About the time Giancana took over, the FBI came to town. Also, Ricca and Accardo were both in trouble with the IRS. Giancana had a golden opportunity because of the timing. His lifestyle resulted in his dismissal as Boss and his demise.

I have omitted a lot of information and may have included far too much because most of you have heard this many times

One last point. I'm no Outfit expert. Most everyone on this forum knows more than I. I simply became interested after reading some articles and decided to see if I could get some answers. I have absolutely no desire to argue or cast aspirations toward anyone.

I still think personally that accardo was an informant.in the book family affair they talk about how a guy that had built accardos house had secretly given the blueprints to the fbi 2years later and somehow accardo found out about it and had him killed.how did he find out? I doubt the fbi went and told him look what ur builder just gave is.unless he had a relationship like flemmi n bulger or scarpa sr had with the fbi

Yes, I did read that the contractor who built Accardo's house was murdered, and the FBI did get the blueprints. Also, one of his neighbor's business's was torched after the neighbor allowed either the police or newspaper to photograph a party at Accardo's house. I believe it was like an annual July 4th party; could have been a Labor Day party, I'm not sure.

Don't get me wrong, all these guys should have been in jail. They were extortionists, thieves and killers. Giancana and Accardo were two of the worst. These guys were old-school, hardened gangsters and were fearless when it came to doing Outfit business.

Your opinion is as good as anybody's relative to Accardo, but I haven't come across any information that would indicate he was an informer. If I do I will certainly pass it on.

There were a lot of corrupt cops that could've leaked informations.The Chi outfit and the Fbi had some strange relationship,especialy in the Accardo years....but i doubt that Accrdo was a informant.He may had some colaborations with the FBI but i dont think that he was givin any info in his operations..thats just crazy

If you had to choose sides on who you would want as a boss, would you choose a low profile, disciplined and highly capable accardo, or would you choose a psychopath who was bringing all kinds of heat from the G ??

How many people were killed while accardo was boss? His house gets broke into and over half a dozen known burglars end up dead .not to low key.plus y wouldn't he tell about his own operations? Scarpa did it to his guys? Every boss BUT accardo ended up in jail there I jus find it hard to believe he was that good of a mobster they couldn't get him

Back in those days there were still a lot of cops, aldermen and judges in The Outfit's pocket, Tommy. I can't say for sure but that could be a reason Accardo never did any time.

It's likely the divisions weren't anywhere near as formal as people like to believe. Chicago didn't make people for a long time, wasn't exclusively Italian by any means... at its best it seemed to be like a very smart, loose, efficiently run company.

I remember either reading or hearing Romer say that at one time they (FBI) thought about the possibility of trying to get Accardo to "turn" but quickly decided it wouldn't work. Instead they focused their attention on Murray Humphreys, but were unsuccessful in getting him to "flip." They were successful in harassing Humphrey until he had a heart attack and died.

If you check the FBI files you will find many documents that have names which have been blackened out. Some of these blackened out areas are names of informants. I have been very surprised at the number of informants that were utilized by the FBI during the 50's and 60's. I don't remembering reading any documents from the 70's or later. Oh, I did read all the info. available relative to the Family Secrets case.

I've read a lot about Murray Humphreys and a little about Gus Alex. Both were high ranking Outfit members even though Humphreys was Welch and Alex was Greek (i believe this is correct). Both men were valuable assets to Ricca and Accardo. Humphreys value to the Outfit is legendary and Alex was apparently very close to Accardo.

I've also wondered about the structure of the street crews, divisions, or organization of the Outfit. I still have lots of questions.

Go to the American News Post forums... There is discussion on the structure to the point of exhaustion. Just do a search for a few key words.

Technically speaking, they were high-ranking associates, as they could never actually be "members" in the strict sense of the word.

Technically they were associates but they had the power of the other top guys

I think they were as powerful as many of the top Italian members in the Outfit but there would always be at least one guy who had more power - whoever was the boss at the time. And that was always going to be an Italian member of the Outfit.

I agree that they were never the top guys. Ricca and Accardo of course had more power but anyone else i'd they had just as much power.

According to Russo's book, it would depend how you look at it. While a boss likely had the final say, he really went out of his way to charactarize Humphreys as the brains and the operator. In terms of leadership, from what I remember, he seemed to suggest that Accardo, Humphreys and Ricca basically ran it as a triumvirate. In his depiction, the question of ultimate power didn't really seem to be an issue.

Makes sense if you think about it. Just like the board of a company.

I don't think Humphreys was quite an "associate" in the same way that someone in the East Coast Families would have been an associate, always somewhat on the outside or limited power. Humphreys was there from almost the beginning. He put in work and with the exception of a handful of people had more power than just about anyone else. When he got started the Outfit didn't have a "made man" concept.

I recommend Russo's book as well. That said, Humphreys still had to defer to Ricca/Accardo and occasionally complained about the Italians sticking together.

I believe the reference to Russo's book by jonnynonos about the triumvirate is an important point because apparently during this era the Outfit WAS run like a company. And what struck me was the the cooperation and absence of any one person being labeled as the ultimate authority. Very unusual for mobsters because in most criminal organizations someone always wants to be the top guy.

tommy- good question, but as i mentioned in an earlier post, other than the comment about Roemer, i haven't read anything about Accarado being an informer.

I've made an attempt to contact two retired FBI agents who were assigned to Chicago in the 60's and are still working in Chicago in the private sector. One returned my email and declined to talk with me by telephone about his experiences during his tenure with the FBI. I told him i fully understood and thanked him for returning my email. I have not heard from the other former agent. I would really like to talk to a former FBI agent who worked during the 60's and see if they could answer some questions. I know it's a long shot but i plan to keep trying. I'm very much aware they would never reveal the identity of an informant, even if they knew the identity. I have other questions to ask.

One of the questions i plan to ask is about how Accardo avoided jail time. I realize i probably will never get an answer, especially from the gov't, but i plan to give it a shot. I have asked this question to a couple of Outfit historians/authors in Chicago and the response was that he had very good lawyers and was lucky. As he became older and in poor health the feeling was that if he were convicted, he would probably die before the appeals were exhausted. I believe this was in reference to his testimony before a congressional panel where he was obviously in bad health and being less than truthful.

One final point, the court documents (Accardo) are online and i've actually read a few. But to me they are kinda boring, so i did a quick glance and moved on. The one i reviewed was related to the search warrant and seizure of property and something like $275,000 in cash and some guns. Accardo prevailed and his property and cash were returned.

I'll say this, the old man had lots of moola, because the lawyers do not work for peanuts. And Accardo was a beer salesman???? The IRS wondered about that, too in another court case.

Thanks for all the comments.

The non-Italian "members and associates" of the Chicago Outfit is an interesting topic and has been discussed in some other threads as well ( Chicago Outfit - not la cosa nostra? ).

I have read about guys like Jake Guzik, Murray Humphreys, Gus Alex, Joe Epstein, Sidney Korshak, Frank Wortman, Art Berne, Fred Evans etc. were in positions of authority and leadership, despite being non-Italian. I think the Outfit under Capone embraced doing business with non-Italians (as long as they were good partners). Capone loved and respected Guzik, who was as much a mentor as Torrio. I believe this business philosophy with non-Italians continued under Nitti, Rica and Accardo.

I read that Frank "Buster" Wortman, Art Berne and others in the Outfit crew in East St Louis had a "making ceremony". This crew was largely non-Italian. Jesse Stoneking gave testimony that Berne "made" him the same way that Wortman made Berne - he swore allegiance, promised not rat (omerta), etc. They did not burn a saint or draw blood from a finger, but a gun and knife were present.

Stoneking had a tattoo on his forearm that said "Outfit", and evidently many from this crew did the same.

I find it interesting that the Outfit crew in East St Louis was largely run by non-Italians, and was often in conflict with the St Louis family, which was mostly Italian.

The Outfit at its peak seems to have been exceedingly smart and lethal. These guys were dyed-in-the-wool career criminals, many of whom knew each other from childhood. The creme rose to the top in terms of the brains. I personally have a hard time picturing Humphreys, Rica, etc., sitting around talking about who was the boss, who was the capo, who was just an associate, etc. It was a very dynamic criminal organization back then capable of thinking on its feet and turning on a dime.

As its aged it seems to have gotten a little dumber and rested on ceremony more, including generally excluding non-Italians far more than it used to, relying on the "making" ceremony etc.

Joe Fosco once said the making ceremony was just a ridiculous ploy to pay people less. You're not getting any more money, but we expect loyalty now as you are a "made" member!

Guys like Humphreys and Giancana, and Capone, seem to me to have been viciously, expressly about making money and, to the end that it helped them make money, consolidating power. I really can't imagine any of them going through some juvenile making ceremony.

Cerone was never Giancana's underboss. Giancana didn't like or trust Cerone. Accardo did not have the power to exile Giancana. Giancana voluntarily went to Mexico and other places outside the U.S. and made a lot of money. It was time for him to go because of all the heat. Accardo had no power to murder Giancana. It was the other way around. Giancana was the Boss of the Taylor St. Crew which was the largest and dominant Crew in the Outfit. Accardo was connected to Elmwood Park and was a Top Level Advisor who was semi-retired. Ricca was the top Advisor and kept the peace. Accardo never ordered any murders without Giancana and Ricca's say.

For the record, FBI docs claim (not saying they are right or wrong, just laying them out) that Frank Ferraro was Giancana's underboss until he died in 1965 and was replaced by Sam Battaglia. None of them said Cerone.

Faithful1, I believe this theory of Frank Strongy Ferraro being the Underboss of the Outfit came from Bill Roemer's book (the F.B.I. agent who also said Joe Ferriola was the Top Boss of the Outfit in 1986 LOL). I will explain why Roemer had this idea in his head. Roemer did not completely understand how the very secretive Outfit was Structured. He tried to make the Outfit be structured like New York which was very inaccurate. Frank Ferraro was a made guy and an Outfit 'specialist'. He reported directly to the Top Boss in the Outfit. Before Giancana, he reported to Ricca. 'Specialists' are made guys who do not necessarily belong to one of the Street Crews. They are MADE MEN who the Top Boss may inherit from the previous Top Boss. These men are usually political Specilaists who deal with all the Crew Bosses and sometimes the other made men in the Outfit across the board. They are very valuable men. Frank Ferraro was a political specialist and made man. He was not the Underboss of the entire Outfit. There was no underboss of the Entire Outfit during the Giancana reign.

It's kind of like putting a square peg into a round hole. You can't make it fit. I agree that the FBI tried to put the Outfit's square peg into New York's round hole. It was difficult to figure out who reported to who in some cases, easier in others. His role sounds similar to what Bill Bonanno wrote about certain capos (captains) who reported directly to the boss. These capos didn't have crews of their own and were considered to occupy a more prestigious position than capos with crews. Fratianno also mentioned that Nick Licata was a soldier (low-ranking made guy) under Dragna who reported directly to him.

Ferraro was described as one of the men whose area was the Loop, along with the Alex brothers.

In comparing Roemer's books to the FBI files shows that there were times he diverged from them. There were other agents who also covered the Outfit did even more reporting than Roemer. There were also a lot of different informants. I'll add that some of these files DO talk about soldiers who were NOT made guys, confirming what you have been writing about here.

Accardo tried to force giacanna to take cerone as his under boss and giacanna said "I will be my own underboss" giacanna often defied accardo

Exactly. Why did he defy Accardo on this subject? Answer. Because if Accardo kept pushing the disagreement and made a big issue out of it, Giancana would have killed him and Cerone. That's why.

Elmwoodparker, you clearly have a lot of knowledge on the Outfit. However, I disagree that Accardo did not have the power to exile Giancana or to have him murdered. The fact is Accardo survived and Giancana did not. When Giancana got clipped, Rica was dead and Accardo was the most senior guy in the Outfit. I refer you to Gary Martin's post earlier in this thread dated 2/3/2013.

While we cannot know all of the facts, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, I think Gary's post summarizes the general consensus and historical record.

Do you have a source for this?

Tony G, Accardo did not have the power to exile Giancana or certainly kill him between 1957 and 1965. In 1974, of course Accardo had that power. Giancana didn't have any Crew and had been gone for 9 years. So, it depends WHAT YEARS you're talking about when we compare the power of Giancana to Accardo. Basically, Accardo, Auippa & Cerone kicked Giancana when he was down which was a smart move on their part.

Here is one writer's analysis of what happened to Giancana. You can decide. Notice the reference to Giancana's power base.

Hope this opens.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5ugCAAA...ana&f=false

I always figured Accardo and Aiuppa had Mooney offed because they didn't want him regaining any power and possibly posing a threat to them. Even though he was in failing health and had been out of the loop for several years (as elmwood says) it was still probably a wise business decision on their part.

Here's another one for those who are interested.


http://www.dougiethompson.com/kennedy-mafia1.html

I can't read for u faithful1

I'm not asking you to read for me. I asked if you could provide a source for your quote about Giancana saying that he would be his own underboss. Where did you get that quote from or did you make it up? That's what I'm asking.

Why are u sore? If u can't relate to it than its not ur speed, some of the more seasoned readers will be able to keep up

What are you talking about? It sounds like you made up a quote and now you don't want to tell us where you got it from.

giancana answered to paul ricca just like tony accardo

giancana was killed in his own home unlike tony accardo

I am curious where you have heard that Giancana went to Mexico voluntarily. Was it in the book by his brother (I have not read it), or did his daughter say that somewhere? I have always understood that he was exiled by Accardo and Auippa, due to his high profile. Some claim that he was not sharing $$ as well.

Personally, I think Giancana's downfall had more to do with the deal made with the Kennedy's (agreeing with Joe Kennedy to help JFK get elected, only to be double crossed and pursued by Bobby and the Justice Dept). I also believe the interactions with the CIA and Robert Mahue to assassinate Castro had to play a role in Giancana leaving the country. My sense is that Accardo and the other leaders in the Outfit did not like the idea of dealing with the government (unless of course there was a quid pro quo style corruption agreement in place).

midwestmafia.com/014.htm


that link above has a story about when giancana got demoted

Cookcounty - I have read that article, and other sources, about Giancana's demotion. That is why I am asking Elmwoodparker where his information comes from.

Listed below is an FBI document reflecting a conversation between Tony Accardo, Paul Ricca and Sam Giancana.

Notice that Accardo is doing most of the talking and Giancana is very receptive to his advice. Ricca says very little. Also look at page 8 or 9 at the top of the page where Accardo is again advising Giancana to ignore FBI agents, and to not call them names, etc. Giancana's response is: "i know."

Sounds to me like things are going well between both men, with Accardo giving advice and Giancana agreeing that Accardo's advise is correct.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=82829&relPageId=2

TonyG, On this Gangsterbb Forum, Nobody cares about what a guy like me has to say because my Information comes from my Uncle, Joe Lombardi, who was an active soldier/associate in the Outfit from 1957 to 1993. I have no way to prove it. The only thing anybody cares about is what was printed in a book or an F.B.I. Report which of course is conflicting sometimes. Nobody cares about anything else. That's why I don't really comment anymore because I don't have to prove anything to anyone and I simply don't care what anyone thinks about how the Outfit is Structured or any of the Differences between New York and Chicago, or the true size and current power of Chicago which is much more white collar than blue Collar, or any inside information I might know about Giancana or anything else from the past or present. It's not worth it to me. See what I'm saying?

paul ricca was speaking through tony accardo

things would have been fine between them if giancana wouldn't have came back into town running off at the mouth doing the same hot shit that got him demoted in the first place. he came back to Chicago and got himself killed in a few months

Elmwood - I used the FBI files as an example of why I thought things were ok between Accardo and Giancana at this time. The Internet and some contacts I've made in Chicago are the only resources available to me.

I enjoy and appreciate all the "Chicago Guys," and the other folks, too.

Keep the information flowing, but hopefully everyone will make an effort to be civil when exchanging opinions and ideas.

Fbi is always a step behind I can't see how people can take what they say so serious, that accardo link shows what a great relationship accardo had with ricca it seemed like depending on the situation both had final say, in actuality they we're co-bosses

accardo got ricca outta prison, i'm sure ricca appreciated it

9 times outta 10 ricca told accardo the subjects to discuss at the meeting with giancana before they even arrived. ricca just added his advice when he felt the need to do so

he showed accardo how to sit back in the cut and pull strings

Its funny when ricca spoke the agents couldnt make out what he was saying lol

Come on "The Don", you never give Accardo any credit. Your low level uncle would have pissed himself if Accardo called him in. That's if Accardo even knew who he was. The FBI wire taps say a different story..

On that new Giancana doc it's claimed that Ricca chewed Accardo out for bringing that "asshole" into the Outfit.

Now assuming that's a factual representation, then it's safe to assume that Ricca was the "final say" while alive.

Accardo said his self he was never the boss and i believe it, at the very best he was an senior advisor

Ricca himself brought Giancana's 42 Gang into the Outfit, a well known fact, so that "documentary" is complete nonsense right off the bat..

so its like the bosses in nyc exiled joe bonanno to Arizona and told him and his people come back and you die. so giancanna basically said screw you went back to chi and they wacked him out. my question how long was he back in chi before he got wacked a week month ?

Your posts are exactly like a couple of other Giancana worshippers. Basically, Giancana was a mafia god and Accardo was a nobody LOL. I bet the IP address would be the same if I cared to look them up.

As far as I know, the 42 Gang wasn't Giancana's and was not brought into the Outfit en masse, only made sort of an official associate's organization.

Also, Accardo was the was the one who "made" Giancana. That's what the doc was saying.

All you have to do is read that mary ferrell link and you can see who's in charge. And it wasn't Moe.

What is amazing is how at the beginning they just talk about installing someone as senator, they moved this guy out, etc. Amazing the pull these guys had, not just in the city, but state and national.

Is this the one you're talking about ?

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do;jsessionid=A6849CCF7DE38F8B4621BC7E453BD767?docId=82829&relPageId=2

Yeah that's the one. Good stuff.

it wasn't accardo either but he (accardo) was speaking for the guy in charge

Iceman, what new Giancana doc are you referring too?