Richard Kuklinski - Did he really work with Demeo?

Been reading the board for a while, finally signed up. This site is an amazing resource.

I just read the Kuklinski book (the book on tape is on youtube if anyone cares). Some of the claims are absurd ie: the Galante murder, castellano, hoffa etc. But my question is what was the extent of his involvement with Demeo and Gravano? In the book there are a lot of detailed accounts of times spent with Roy and Gravano. It makes sense that Gravano wouldnt mention him considering he supposedly hired Kuklinski to kill a cop. Is there any evidence not coming from Philip Carlo or kulinski that the Iceman had any involvement with demeo, gravano or the mafia in general?? I am beginning to think that the Iceman killed only the 5 people he is convicted of killing and the rest is utter BS. I just can't believe that an author could write a non fiction book without verifying anything. I mean there has to be some evidence somewhere right?

Kuklinski is a lot like henry hill he mixes fact with fiction. Now im not disputing thet he was a killer but he claims to have killed anyone from jimmy hoffa to carmine galante to roy demeo himself. Now I do believe him taht he worked with Demeo is some capacity but i dont belive at all that he was roy's top hitman or that he killed roy. We all know that The Gemini twins killed roy that is pretty clear so richard lied about that.

hes a total bullshitter

Kuklinski was full of shit. Don't remember where I read this, but wasn't it so that the FBI, while keeping surveillance on the Gemini Lounge, only saw him visit there once?

Yeah I guess it's bs. That means that 99.9 percent of the book is untrue. It just amazes me that someone can publish a non fiction book without verifying any of it. And now they are making a movie out of it with Michael Shannon, wynonna rider, and ray liotta. Based on a true story, what a joke.

Didn't he even try to claim he had something to do with Castellano hit? Think I read that somewhere, LMAO.

I do think he would have probably met DeMeo once, but worked with him? Don't think so.

yep, i think he tried taking credit for the killing of john favaro as well, i think he said gotti hired him to do it.

he bought a .22 pistol at the gemini lounge. he was only seen there once and could have been bought from a number of criminals thats hung there.

Phat's right. Kuklinski is a self aggrandising liar. There's no corroborating sources beyond those based on his own claims.

I mean, he killed a bunch of folk and had some very tenuous connections. Thats about it. If you hit the archives and run a search on him, there's some great threads.

What a liar, sometimes he say "I killed around 100 people" other time "I killed probably over 200"...

Even DeMeo is idolized in hell by Kuklinski

I blame Carlo for printing all Kuklinski's BS more than Kuklinski himself.

In the book it says that pat Kane, the cop that investigated kuklisky for years, tied him to Roy demo because of information received from Freddie dimone. I wonder if that is documented somewhere or if Carlo just made it up

i do too but i will say this the ice man interviews that were on HBO were some great bone chilling stuff...even if he was lying i think he believed it and def delivered with the interviews.

Kuklinsky's documentary on HBO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv4c3flhSaU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=007UO2aOm-U

My take is that he either bought guns or porn from the Gemini and years later when he was locked up in jail with nothing to do and the truth about the DeMeo crew came out - I think he (Kuklinski) decided to have a little fun.
I bet the Gemini twins had a laugh or two if they ever managed to see his interview or read the book!

I think their connection is a little bit stronger than just one gun purchase. In the documentary "confessions of a mafia hitman" there is a reprsentative from the NJ Organized Crime Task Force who talks about his connection with Demeo(there is even some home footage of Demeo). Also he agreed to plead guilty to and received a life sentence for the murder of Peter Calabro, a bad cop who gave information to the Gambinos. This murder was orderd by Gravano. I find Kuklinski believable in this specif documentary (the later one where he says he killed 200 people is absurd). He talks about all the murders he was convicted of, he talks about killing a random person because Demeo asked him too, and he even talks about Demeos murder. He just says Demeo outlived his usefullness and people thought he was going to run to the cops but doesnt say he murdered Demeo. He says he didnt really care the Demeo was killed and it "couldnt have happened to a better guy" (thick sarcasm). I don't think he was involved in the murders of Hoffa, Galante, Billoti,Favra or Demeo as the book says. And I think a lot of the murders detailed in the book are complete fiction. But after doing some research I do think Kuklinski filled a few contracts with Gravano and Demeo. Not saying he was a part of the crew, or even an important hitman, just that he did a few jobs they didn't want to do, like the killing of a cop (Peter Calabro)

one more thing. The documentary posted above isnt the one where he speaks specificly about Demeo. There are 3 differnt HBO specials

here is the one where he talks about Demeo specifically.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xopaCQB4XM0

he starts talking about his relationship with Demeo at 5:40 and it goes into part 2 and 3
here is part 2. pretty interesting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=kqPujBv51eU

The home footage of demeo and demeos murder is discussed very early in part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VDrD6R9MpI&feature=relmfu

stick around and do some more research
you'll soon pick up tid bits and you will be able to form a better opinion than just one documentary.

Fair enough. I do think that particular documentary is more credible than the other two since he speaks in specific terms (in the other two he talks a lot about kill ramdon people and not specifically about contracts) and there is a representative from an Organized Crime task force corraborating. I'll see if I can find some other sources.

'The Iceman' was one of the worst books I have ever had the displeasure of purchasing. Like previously noted Richard Kuklinski claimed to have conspired, if not taken part in every controversial mob hit since Albert Anastasia and Jimmy Hoffa.

Although as Ivy has pointed out, I don't believe all the blame should be placed onto Kuklinski. This guy was narcissistic mercenary who believed his own fictitious ideologies. Perhaps he knew he could suck journalists and criminologists into buying his stories and keeping people entertained and intrigued. I understand Kuklinski also referenced in a HBO interview that he would read into various ways of killing people and often visualized them as a reality.

In hindsight, Philip Carlo should have done his research before publishing this book. Carlo should have also researched Kuklinski's posturing claims of his alleged ties to the DeMeo crew, which can be easily proved untrue as none of the DeMeo informants claimed having any knowledge or relationship with Kuklinski.

This book was a complete write off and it shows very halfhearted journalism by Carlo and his team of editors and publishers.

i agree with you 100%

Who was he actually connected to? Who was he doing all this killing for? My fav is when is says the guy owed him money and he ran into the guy. Said the guy had him come with him to eat and party and tried to drop him off at his car at the end of the night without paying him, so he shoots him. Gets in the guys pocket and he has a wad of money, pulls out wehat the guy owes him and puts the rest back. Put in my mind had two huge mistakes 1) when the dead guy is found and still has a wad of money in his pocket the police establish there was something personal involved when you get shot in the head from inside of your car(no holes in windows) and 2) you just left a wad of fucking money in a guys pocket after you fucking killed him, he dont fucking need it! Hell it probably aint true anyway.

remember he was only convicted of 4 murders. he ran a small time home invasion crew and did deal in porn to an extent. mostly buying from a connection of a connection of the gambinos. i mean don't get me wrong he was a killer and did some killings. i do believe that he had anything to do with Callabro? no. why would sammy the bull hire a hitman outside the family esp when sammy was already an accomplished hitman himself. when the govt asked him to testify about gravano all he did was try to extort the govt for money. all the other shit he claims is just ludacris. galante castealano all that crazy shit he claims fugetaboutit

Still looking forward to seeing a film about him though, fictitious or not.

It would make a GREAT movie, but IMO not a Scorsese type of film. I'm thinking more along the lines of a Guy Ritchie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDPtT1NYWYM



not sure what this trailer is, but looks promising.

Looks like Ray Liotta is playing Roy Demeo...

Also wynona ryder and james franco are in it, looks even more promising now...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1491044/

thats not ray liota. its the guy from boarwalk empire i cant remember his real name. that trailer has been around for a while and that movie never seemed to go anywhere. i do think it would be entertaining.

That's Michael Shannon in the lead role as the Iceman. He was saying Liotta will play DeMeo.

Jack Huston, the guy with half a face?

Yeah but that really wasn't a trailer, it was just a scene that was shot to get studio interest, they shot that scene and maybe a few others with shannon as sort of a pilot to show excecutives. Since that scene was released the cast has changed many times...at one point they were saying benicio del toro was going to play demeo.

Now that liotta is playing demeo and winona ryder and james franco are going to be in it along with of course michael shannon it looks much more promising than when it was first circulated as news.

I was extremely sceptical at first but now it has some legs...

The reasoning by Kuklinski is because he didnt want any of his men killing a cop. I have tried to find a connection outside of Carlo (since you can't believ anything he writes) but have yet to find anyting. I do know that he plead guilty to that murder. Now that is a true sociopath. Pleading guilty to a murder you didnt commit. haha

No, he's the guy that plays the Prohibition agent.

Guy Ritchie makes the best movie! Revolver is my fav

I think Snatch is still the best movie from Guy Ritchie. It seems a lot of his movies tried to be Snatch and but he "got it" with Snatch. His 2nd best movie is RocknRolla. The only thing I remember about Revolver was that chick at the bar with the lollipop. I don't think Ritchie was right for the Sherlock Holmes movies.

How many times was "The Iceman"'s name mentioned in Murder Machine? That's all that really needs to be said. This guy was so full of shit it's ridiculous.

The 3 guys who turned informant on the activities of the Demeo crew

Freddie Dinome
Vito Arena
Dominick Montiglio

None of them mentioned Kuklinski even in a small form.
Vito Arena may not have known about him but surley Dom and Freddie would have heard of Demeo's "ice-cold killing polack".

As I said earlier, I believe he bought merchandise (firearms, porn etc)off Demeo and nothing more.

the Iceman book claims the cops connected Kuklinski to Demeo because of Freddie Dinomes information. But you cant believe anything carlo writes. I bet kuklinski read murder machine and got a lot of his "stories" from that book.

Here is a 2005 column from Ganglandnews about the Calabro murder and Sammy the bulls reaction to being charged.


Sammy Spurned Sweet NJ Plea Deal


Two years ago, Salvatore (Sammy Bull) Gravano rejected a plea deal from state prosecutors in New Jersey for the 1980 murder of a NYPD Detective that was even sweeter than the one the pint-sized killer got from the feds for 19 mob slayings, Gang Land has learned.

For the mob hits, Gravano had to do five years – he’d already done most of it by time he was sentenced – and agree to testify against his boss, John Gotti.

But the deal Sammy Bull was offered for the murder of Peter Calabro was a total free pass – no jail time at all – if he agreed to plead guilty, according to a prosecution memo obtained by Gang Land.

The plea offer tendered by Bergen County Prosecutor John Molinelli did not require Sammy Bull to testify against anyone, according to a memo by Detective Robert Anzilotti. The nine-page memo details rambling discussions that Gravano had with Anzilotti and another detective on February 21-22, 2003.

The discussions took place while Gravano was housed at the Maricopa County Jail in Phoenix awaiting transfer to federal prison to serve a 20-year rap for drug dealing. The offer on the table called for him to do no extra time, just accept a 20 year sentence that would be served concurrently with his stretch for drugs. It was an “everybody’s happy” deal: Molinelli gets a conviction; Sammy never does an extra day.

The proposed deal did have one requirement, but it certainly wasn’t a heavy lift. In exchange for the free ride, Gravano would “have to provide a full confession


to include all others involved in the murder,” according to the memo.

The session between Sammy Bull and the detectives went down this way, according to the memo: After reading Gravano his rights, Anzilotti engaged Gravano in small talk about Roy DeMeo, a Gambino soldier (right) who was killed three years after Calabro, until Sammy Bull pressed him with: “I know you didn’t come all the way here to talk about Roy. Why don’t you just get to the point and if I can help you I will.”

Anzilotti obliged, telling him that convicted killer Richard (Iceman) Kuklinski, who claims to have been a DeMeo associate and once boasted that he had killed DeMeo, had fingered him for the Calabro hit. The detective also showed him a copy of an affidavit by the Iceman that implicated Gravano in the murder.

Throughout the first 85 minutes of the interview – before Anzilotti presented Gravano with a written document outlining an agreement for him to plead guilty – Sammy Bull’s remarks were filled with wisecracks and sarcasm.

“Believe it or not,” said one source familiar with Gravano’s mindset at the time, “Sammy thought the whole exercise was some kind of a weird, bizarre joke. They brought him coffee and donuts, and wanted to talk, so he talked to them.”

After reading Kuklinski’s affidavit, Gravano “volunteered” that “if” he had wanted to kill Calabro, he would have “whacked him myself,” wrote Anzilotti,


who quoted Sammy Bull as adding: “What do I need this Polock for? I hate to say it, but we were good at it.”

At another point, after Anzilotti had shown him1980 crime scene photos that obviously did not connect Gravano to the murder, Sammy Bull looked at the detective and stated: “Maybe I should just cop to it and move on.”

Immediately after that crack, however, the light bulb in Gravano’s brain finally went on when Anzilotti showed him a prepared cooperation agreement that he had brought along.

He immediately asked to see his Arizona lawyer, Greg Parzych. The attorney listened to the detectives summarize their talk with Gravano, read the documents they provided, and conferred with his client, apparently convincing him that while the investigation and accusation made little sense, it was no laughing matter. The next morning, Parzych told the detectives that Sammy Bull would not answer any more questions.

“Gravano then spoke,” wrote Anzilotti, “and in a noticeably different attitude from the previous day stated that he would not cooperate with us, nor was he interested in taking the deal being offered.”

To cap off the sessions – the actual conversations with Gravano took about 90 minutes – Sammy Bull said “he had no involvement in the Calabro murder,” Anzilotti wrote.

Two days after he turned down the deal, Molinelli called a press conference to announce the filing of murder charges. If convicted, Gravano, now 60, faces life, added to the 12 years he still owes

Ok so after doing a lot of research on the subject I finally did find a good source who has some proof of the Demeo connection. It doesnnt proof he was a hitman, just that there was a connection. Anthony Bruno wrote the first book on the Iceman. Unlike Carlo, he refused to put things in the book he couldnt verify. You wont find the HOffa, Castellano or Demeo murders. I wrote him an email asking him if there as any proof of Kuklinskis connection to Demeo . Here is his resopnse.

Hi Pat,
Good question. Kuklinski told so many tall tales, it was hard to separate truth from his inflated self-image. He told me a lot of the same stories he told Carlo, but if I couldn't verify it, I didn't put it in my book. (For example, the Hoffa killing and the Castellano hit.) As for his association with DeMeo, the late Kenny McCabe of the NYPD confirmed that Kuklinski had been at the Gemini Lounge in Brooklyn (DeMeo's headquarters) on several occasions. DeMeo was under surveillance in the early '80s, and the police routinely took down the plate numbers of the cars parked around the bar. Kuklinski's was one of them.


Further evidence: Kuklinski confessed to the murder of George Malliband. Malliband owed money to DeMeo and refused to pay up. Police confirmed the Malliband-DeMeo connection. Kuklinski told me he had introduced Malliband to DeMeo, making him responsible for the debt in DeMeo's eyes.


More: Kuklinski worked in a film lab in lower Manhattan owned by Gambinio capo Robert DiBernardo. At night Kuklinski freelanced, reproducing porn flicks, and one of the retailers he supplied was a porn palace in Point Pleasant, NJ owned by DeMeo. Kuklinski told me DeMeo beat him up when he didn't produce films fast enough to meet customer demand.


When I interviewed Kuklinksi, he implied that he killed DeMeo. Another tall tale. The hit was almost certainly ordered by DeMeo's boss Nino Gaggi most likely on orders from boss Paul Castellano. DeMeo's mood swings were becoming a problem; he had become a loose cannon.


I hope this answers your question. Let me know if you have any others.


All the best,
Anthony Bruno
`

I wonder how Demeo got a porn palace in New Jersey?
I thought the Gambinos didnt have much of a foothold there and that NJ was mainly Genovese/Lucchese terrority?

All five NY families have had a presence in Jersey to one degree or another. The Genovese the most, obviously. I'd say back in the day the Gambino's presence there rivaled the Luccheses. And a porn spot is a little different than, say, the waterfront as far as traditional territory goes. Plus I remember from Murder Machine DeMeo saying Jersey is where a lot of the customers for his child porn/bestiality movies were.

Fuckin Greeks .

hahahahahahahahaha

Amazing how Demeo, a father of 3 himself, peddled that shit!
This guy really had no standards did he?

crazy to think that demeo had anything going on in a nice town like point pleasant. hope the kiddie porn wasnt filmed locally. animal porn? how does that do it for anybody?

You ever watch "I almost got away with it", some of these hillbillies, will hide in the woods for 3 years. Demo with the kiddie porn I don't know and want to know how much money that brought in but I would draw the line with that shit. Then again to be as f'd up as he was, he probably had a lot of skeletons in his closet. ( No Pun Intended)

RIP Phillip Carlo. Even though the Kuklinski book was ridiculous I really ike like the Casso book despite some of the errors and the Pitera book was excellent and seemed to be on the money.

His explanation, when Nino blew up at him after he found out, was that it was the way the industry was going and they couldn't stay competitive if they didn't deal in it. Anything for a buck.

I read somewhere that because child pornography back then was so hard to get and so risky to possess, each video sold would go for hundreds of dollars, and thus produce enormous profit margins. It's probably easy to get now online.

I wonder what Demeo would do for money nowerdays?

Autocrime here in Britain isnt half as bad as it used to be in the 70's and 80's and I suspect its the same stateside!
Also, with the advent of the internet, the porn industry isnt what it used to be - guys dont need to sneak into a theater or sexshop to buy dirty movies anymore and Dracula wouldnt recognise 42nd street today!

He'd probably have to get Joey and Anthony to shake down internet cafes or get Freddie Dinome to sell touted tickets for Justin Bieber concerts

Yo Gary the porn industry is on life support. I use to date this nice Jewish attorney for a brief period of time but now were just friends..her father whose now retired got very wealthy off the porno industry. It was funny she had whispered to me had a holiday dinner about one women seated at the table, "the awkwardness/humor some family affairs.."I've seen this ladies _____ in a movie and now were all having dinner."

Small world isnt it? LOL

yeah he killed demeo , hoffa and castellano ... if you believe that then hell he was the shooter in the grassy knoll in dallas and hell he is with tupac and elvis in cuba chilling right now too i bet serving up a big drink of bullsh*t in hell

eastsider,
I think everyone here realizes that he didnt Kill Demeo, Hoffa, Galante, Castellano , etc. Pretty ridiculous claims. THe point of the thread is to what extent was he involved with Demeo. We know there was some connection but how far did it go.

i can't believe this thread is still getting posts...

Roy only dealt in the beastiality stuff not the kiddie porn , and some believe the story Kuklinski told about killing the drug dealer who had the children sex slaves in his basement was actually a Roy Demeo hit NOT a Kuklinski murder . Freddy did however mention Richard Kuklinski to the Feds but not to the extent Carlo would have one believe . I do know that Freddy told my grandfather he thought Richard set up Roy and maybe even Richie . As for the Calabro/Gravano set up , one might want to look into the Kuklinski family finances because some circles might have you believe that Kuklinski was paid off to blame it on Gravano as a last chance at revenge for Sammy flipping . In regard to the other murders he helped NJ state police and NYPD solve that could also be law enforcement paying him as well to help them raise their clearance rates . I never put too much stock in any murder case being solved when it only adds a life sentence to someone who's already serving 2 life sentences and has absolutely nothing to lose . I also will say that not only is the Iceman book based on a ton of BS but so is Murder Machine , family members , friends , and I have even emailed Capeci to try and let him know about some inconsistencies/errors in his book and he ignored them . It is what it is . Anyone read Al Demeos book ? It's a good read with some pretty accurate stories .

I call Kuklinski major bullshitter

Hey its easy to kill a few nobody's get caught and be like you know what I know this kill crazy motherfucker who is now dead and I once bought a pistol from him - but i'll just say he used me for hits etc.. One photo of him outside Gemini, no other connections to Demeo or the crew except circumstantial nonsense.. if he was really killing for demeo.. we would know by now .. and someone would back this up - either a rat or surveillance, once again non of this adds up... Richard Kuklinski nice try - but I wasn't born yesterday asshole

As I've said I think Kuklinski is an embellisher of epic proportions to say the least . But I think his motives were financial , he's not a stupid man. I woul bet my bottom dollar that this Gravano implication was a set up from the Gambinos . If this would have went to trial , Gravano would have been somewhere in the North East in Jail , which would have put him well within the reach of the New York Mafia

I dunno.. why would Gravano trust this guy?, why would he not think he would roll over one day... why didn't Sammy admit this when he made his deal?, as he would have knew Kuklinski was already in prison and was going to stay there for life.. why would sammy not just add that murder onto the rest- he would have still got out, it makes no sense..the deal is if you leave anything out or lie then - no deal..think about it didn't Kuklinski confess to murdering a whole list of guys - in that Carlo book... Castellano, Galante, Demeo - just plain old nonsense, don't buy it... goddamn lier

If Sammy admitted to his role in killing a cop there would never have been a deal to begin with . Corrupt or not killing a cop would have completely destroyed his credibility and no judge would have signed off on the deal . It kind of makes you think of all sorts of conspiracies when you really look at it . Because had Kuklinski done this during the Gotti trial when they found out Sammy flipped , Gotti may very well never ended up in jail . I always thought that the commission approved Sammy ratting on Gotti as the final fuck you for killing big Paul . I mean Sammy was living outside wit pro for a long time and you can't tell me they couldn't find him there was and supposedly still is a 10 million dollar bounty on his head . All the interviews he did , getting kicked out of wit pro, mid level gangsters living in Arizona were sure to have bumped into him or even one of the kids in his ecstasy dealing ring could have just as easily saw it as an easy way to get filthy rich .