What should be done with the Colombo family?

I ran this poll for the past month on my blog www.fivefamiliesnyc.blogspot.com, the results are shown below, please weigh in on your thoughts.

Members absorbed by other families - 102 (21%)
The Persico's should relinquish power - 238 (50%)
Cut off all relations with other families - 41 (8%)
Let the FBI continue their onslaught - 93 (19%)

Total votes: 474


I voted for the second one and think the Persico's need to relinquish power. Easier said than done.

The Persico's should relinquish power i voted for that one too on your blog.They need someone on street.

For the Colombo's it would be best if the Persico's relinquished power. Carmine should've abdicated the throne 26 years ago. It would have saved a lot of informants and the third Colombo war. But its not going to happen until maybe when Carmine dies.

The Lucchese's got rid of Amuso recently as boss, but the Persico's still have a tight grip on their family.

A far as members being absorbed by other families: do they even want that? You'd get a guy in your crew you don't really know, and who comes from a family full of rats.

I'd say be absorbed.
In the long run there aren't enough Italian criminals to have 5 distinct families, especially as so many of the older guys are dying/getting locked up for life now.

Wait and see if in 20 or so years they don't merge more and more until for all intents and purposes they become a single family.

There are more Italians in New York than in Rome.Just a fact

idk about that, not in 20 or so years anyways, maybe in like 75/100...

aint there an option for them not to commit crime?

Wasnt there already members that were operating independantly from the family anyway. I think that they should adopt a system in which they operate separately but also can rely on each other for back up when needed. The strongest crew with the most numbers and money should take an authorative position settling disputes and also there should be a sort of bank for legal fees, weapons etc. Other than that the money and activities should stay within their own crews.

We can't know a thing,we don't know what will happen in next 20,30 years etc

Big economic crisis or the World War 3(i hope none of this happen) can lead to big mafia raise.

All five NY families will always have intersecting interests. But if you look at the cases involving two or more families over the past decade, the Colombos do have the least interaction with the rest.

true

last Colombo interaction with another family was in the big mob takedown indictments, when a gambino associate stabbed a colombo associate and the colombos wanted retribution/money to pay for his medical bills

There may be plenty of Italians left in NYC, but most are assimilated now.

It's always gonna be 1st and 2nd generation immigrants that will be criminals most of the time. once you get to the 4th generation like most Italians in NYC are now, they are Italian by surname only.

hit the nail right on the head

i personally know tons of italians who work on wall street, run nonprofits, work for the city, lawyers, doctors, etc

I think all the 5 families should merge.

Disbanding.

Doesn't teddy Persico get out of jail soon?

if they do make an official boss sometime soon i think its too late. they should of made new official beginning of this century. the colombos have had it now.

+1 for both posts.

Most Italian Americans don't need to resort to crime today. That's not something to lament (woe for the good old days when life was like a Scorsese film).

It's something to be proud of; and as a second generation Italian American, I am.

The merging thing never seemed like a possibility to me. At least not for the foreseeable future. These aren't legit corporations. A captain in one of the other families isn't going to want to suddenly become responsible for a bunch of Colombo guys that he doesn't know that well. While there may be some guys (associates) who drift over to other families, seems to me it would be more likely the other families would just let the Colombos continue to deteriorate and scoop up their rackets. Heck, the Genovese did that to the Gambinos in the 1990's. But again, we're a long way off from the Colombos fading out.

That's why you don't see the "industrialist" or "criminal mastermind" type of gangster too often anymore. These days I imagine guys like Al Capone or Angelo Bruno would just get MBAs or something.

It would be a hell of a lot easier for the feds to hammer away at one big "merged" family. Imagine if the five families merged, and then the boss of this new superfamily pulled a Massino.

Incidentally, I can't recall any examples of this "merger" thing actually being discussed by real mobsters. It's always been people on... crime message boards. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The last Commission meeting in 2000 was Bonanno family boss Joe Massino chaired the meeting, along with underboss Sal Vitale. Representing the Gambino family was captain Peter Gotti. Representing the Genovese family was captain Frank Giovanelli. Representing the Colombo family was consigliere Joel Cacace. And representing the Lucchese family was consigliere Louis Daidone. Among other things, those there changed the membership requirements back to 100% Italian blood for prospective members. Also discussed was breaking up the Colombo family, with it's members going to different families. But that was rejected because it wasn't realisitic and it was thought it would be disrespectful to Colombo boss Carmine Persico.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8pvyqAZ...ico&f=false

Didn't Joe Massino recently state that this wasn't a real Commission meeting?

It seems the idea to break up the Colombo family never got past the hypothetical stage. And that's when there was still a lot of tension from the Colombo war.

Again, I have to point out that the Colombos are nowhere near being the to the point where they're about to be extinct or could be merged with other families. It's almost like people have started thinking of it as the 4 NY families + the Colombos and that's not really the case, despite all the "sinking ship" jokes.

Incidentally, I've read from other sources that it was actually Larry Dentico that represented the Genovese family and not Fritzy.



Even though he chaired it, it seems Massino felt the real last legitimate Commission meeting was in the mid-1980's before the Commission case. Maybe that's because the meeting he held in 2000 didn't involve all 5 official bosses. And even before, that, it was only a few of the official bosses when the Genovese, Gambinos, and Luccheses met. Of course, others would go by even stricter definitions, and argue that, since the Commission originally also consisted of the Buffalo, Chicago, and later Philadelphia, and Detroit families, the 5 NY families alone can't properly be called the Commission. Though I'm not one of them.

Thank you Ivy for stating all that info which would have taken me too long to type lol

Below are two examples from the same paper; one saying the Colombos will be the first to become extinct, the other the Bonannos. And, let's not forget the state of the Luccheses back in the early-mid 1990's.

My point is, none of them are really that close to becoming extinct. And if you want to say the Colombos are, you have to say the other two NY families are too because it's not like the Luccheses or Bonannos are light years ahead of the Colombos.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/the_brutal_rise_and_bloody_fall_UZaDa6M0XwPiL68bCdBoTO/2

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/yes_we_have_no_bonannos_beqIqL1PSLA6O7jNCy4uzL

I would set the Luccheses ahead of both the Colombos and the Bonnanos at the moment. Not light years, but ahead. A decade of relative stability and leadership, especially compared to the other two smaller families.

But everybody was saying the same thing about the Luccheses 12 years ago as they are saying about the Colombos nowadays, true.

I thought most of the persico loyalist were in jail or dead. If they find new leadership they might throw the feds off the trail for a while anyway. Anyone that has the stink of persico and the 93 war and the fallout just seems to be cursed as the feds just seem to know too much about it and have garnered alot of informants from it.

I dont think they would go extinct. Someone who probably wasnt in the spotlight so much before will move his people in to the top of the family. It all depends upon whos got most allies, muscle and money.

When Kenji used to post on the RD, he said the Persicos still have a lot of extended family members on the street. Allie Boy getting the title after Carmine dies makes sense. The Persicos get to keep the big seat, and retain influence, but the day-to-day operations are run by other guys in the family, and the official boss is already behind bars.

Amen paisan... Second generation Italo-Americano here.

Did you ever correspond with Kenji on RD?

I go to University where Kenny's from.

fuck kenji

Indeed.



There's a huge, stickied thread on RD devoted to Kenji's Q and A. I have to admit, at first I was all "ZOMG Kenji's akshullyx responding!!1!"; but soon realised the extent of his flip-flopping, contradiction and "LULZ IM SO AWESOME!" rendered his info severely biased. He seems more interested in convincing people he was a "HARDCORE CRIM EVEN BEFORE" and that the one Persico he was around is indicative of the whole. The various responses and pointed questioning eventually lead to his boycotting of the forum.

Sure he was around some guys, and I certainly hold a modicum of respect for him taking the time to post about his exploits on a mafia forum. But so much inconsistency and so much arrogance doesn't exactly endear him to the average poster. I swear Ive seen his name a few times in the "users browsing this forum" feed, but beyond that, his thread's run cold for a few years now apparently.

Back on topic, despite the "sinking ship" meme, I think that people are too quick to write off the Colombos. There's a huge history there and they're still, even today, after so may hits; so many cuts above the average "gang" status. There's still a number of serious earners, still a number of serious hitters and, as with the other four families, still likely a number of guys we dont even know about still towing the line. It's ludicrous to think that we "internet fanboyz (LULZ)" have got a handle on each and every figure affiliated.

Still, I'll STFU if Capeci reports on the Colombo (READ: PERSICO) dissolution in a Gangland article soon.

Agree 100%. While they are going through some very, very hard times, and it sure as hell ain't what it used to be, they will be around for quite some time. They just have some big leadership issues they need to resolve.

Kenji is about 20 different people on RD and I'm not even kidding. He's brilliant and talks circles around all the guys that just can't seem to get off his dick. He's an attention whore first and foremost, so talking about him whether good or bad..he loves you for it.

What should be done with the Colombo family?

I hear Walmart is hiring.

Welcome to fuckin' Walmart. Have you seen this deal on this Claratin Day and Night? Oooh Maddon'...

Aisle fuckin four, scumbag. Right next to the stool softener.

The "sinking ship" joke is just what it is: a joke. Nothing more.

I talked to him in certain threads. What carmella said is correct. Kenji loved the attention, as well as pissing people off. I didn't care if he was a rat, like many others did. I thought he provided some good "micro," first-hand information but certainly didn't take everything he said as gospel.



It's been repeated so much that it seems some people are starting to take it as fact. They're the ones who talk almost like it's the 4 NY families + the Colombos. If families are going to be labeled as such, the smaller remaining families outside NY should have that label before the Colombos.

I bet most are perfectly aware that the Colombos are still a viable family. It's oversensationlized by the press.

It goes to show the structure of the families, set in place 80 years ago, is brilliant. It's what makes them vulnerable to RICO but also what keeps them viable at the same time.

Have you noticed how some, at least on the other board, try to argue that Chicago and even Detroit is more viable than the Colombos?

Well, it's obvious. They're more secretive and low key. Plus, they have entire cities to themselves....

I'm kinda surprised that Buffalo doesn't get this treatment. They're in the same boat as Detroit as a moderately sized family kinda just fading away. At least for Detroit there was that bust in 96. Buffalo lost their union in the 90s and seemingly faded away.

Interestingly enough, when I went to go double check on Buffalo and their union, I saw that there are mob associates currently running it.

http://www.laborers.org/Buffalo_Local210-12-2-99.html

http://www.laborers210.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.display&page_id=28

The first link goes to an article about the various gangsters involved in the union. The second link goes to the current office staff.

Now, I don't think that means the mob in Buffalo is thriving or even really that active at all at the moment. If it was, I feel like the feds would jump all over it just for the headlines alone.

I've never understood that aspect of the cult surrounding Detroit. About how, because of terrorism, the mob in Detroit is put on the back burner by the feds. The cases never let up in NY, the one place in America that could get away with letting up on the mob in place of terrorism.

I've too have noticed that Sam Capitano is still running things. Still, the local was declared free of mob influence back in 2006.

Just about every reason has been floated to explain away the lack of mob cases in certain cities, including the feds having other priorities. But that excuse holds water for only so long. The more time goes by, it becomes more and more clear where the mob is more active and where it is less active.

I know its a terrible source to use but a year ago Wiki said for the colombos "Membership: 100 made men" Now it says "Membership 40-50 made men" LOL

it does or did say however active made men 2011 does it/didnt it?

Yeah it did, its just funny though how it has halved since last year. Not that I am putting much stock in those stats.

Looking at the sources in the article history, the old figure was from 2004.

The figure listed in the 2004 source, which was the New Jersey report on organized crime, cited the Colombo family as having 112 total members.

112 made guys is enormous compared to any of the families outside New York, even if half are jailed/inactive. Factor in 5-15 associates for each made guy and you've got a veritable army of gangsters on your hands. They're going to be around for quite a while longer.

Exactly. While I personally don't put a whole lot of stock in associate estimates, if we include the associate estimate for the Colombo family from the same 2004 report, it cited 112 total members and 500 associates. Or total manpower of over 600.

Compare that with New England and Philadelphia, who each have maybe 50 total members and 100 associates, or Chicago, with perhaps 30 members and a little over 100 associates. The Colombos are still 4 times the size of the remaining families outside NY.

CHICAGO HAS GOT OVER A 1000 MADE GUYS! I KNOW BECAUSE I LIVED THERE IN 1972! WE CONTROL EVERYTHING AND NEW YORK ANSWERS TO US!

just kidding guys, just kidding

i wonder how many active made men there are now in the bonanno and lucchese families

The number of active made men changes all the time. People die, go into jail, out of jail, younger guys get made, guys flip etc. Also, I personally believe nobody knows the exact number. Not everybody is on the radar. Of course, you can get very close.

Right. Totally agree with that.

Short, Ivy answered that question not that long ago. I don´t remember the details but do a search through the threads in here and I´m sure you´ll find it.

ok ill look. thanks

While they could never know the exact number at a given time, given the in-house knowledge that has been acquired by the FBI over the past 30 years, as well as informants, surveillance, etc., I really don't think their membership estimates are off by more than, say, 10% or so. So, for a family like the Colombos, 10 or 12 members that have not been identified yet seems believable.

As far as active members on the street, it's probably around 50 or so for each of the smaller NY families (Lucchese, Colombo, Bonanno).

TOMMY SHOTS ON THE RADIO IN AN INTERVIEW!! TRIAL STARTS NEXT WEEK!

http://sliwonics.com/other/morano/Gioelifull.mp3

Above is a link to listen to a live interview between my Dad (from Metropolitan Detention Center) and Frank Morano on AM970 The Apple. There will be a follow up next week. Hope you all enjoy it.

MG

http://tommygioelisvoice.blogspot.com/

This is true. It changes from time to time.

Just look at the charts Ivy posted: a lot of guys died the last ten years. Who knows if, and if so by who they are being replaced? We get information when someone rats etc., but for a secretive, relatively rat free family like the Genovese, there's still some guys off the radar.

The NY families allow each other to replace those members that have died. But you're not allowed to replace any that flipped. They also traditionally made two extra guys at Christmas time but I don't know if they still do that.

And obviously, just because there may be several guys not on those charts, that doesn't mean they are off the FBI's radar. For the three smaller NY families, I think Pogo's charts are pretty close considering the official estimates for them are a little over 100 made guys each.

Don't think the Colombos or the Bonnanos have a lot of secrets for the FBI at the moment, maybe the Luccheses or the Gambinos have some aces up their sleeve. But it wouldn't surprise me if the Genovese have some guys that the FBI doesn't know about. Don't get me wrong though, the charts are great and probably very close.

youtube
Watch at about 18 mins and it answers why the mafia is able to find people there about 750 made members in new york alone and with about 5000 associates, they will always be able to find people to replace past members. Although many are known to law enforcement, many are low key not everybody was a john gotti flaunting themselves

The NY families are smaller than they were at their peak in the 1950's and 1960's but that's due as much to them closing the books for years at a time as anything else, including general attrition. Unlike pretty much every other family, the NY families have been able to keep their total memberships stable for the last 20 years or so. Of course, as mentioned before, there is also attrition in terms of quality, not just quantity.

I don't think there is any drastic or immediate action that should be taken with the Colombo's but the Persico element of leadership behind bars is useless. The Persico triangle should step from the throne and let the day-to-day hierarchy over see the family.

I posted not too long ago my personal preference about the Colombo leadership:

Why "hopefully"? If the Persicos are really that incompetent, then it's a good thing they are in charge because that makes it easier for the law enforcement to destroy the organization, or at least to damage it.

Wait....you mean we shouldn't be rooting for these criminal organizations to succeed?

My favourite are the gambinos, they got a strong team this season.

Who else is really capable of managing the columbos at this point?

What should be done with the Colombo family?

Well, the Feds seem to have a pretty good idea....

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/it_bro_vs_bro_at_mob_trial_NaMzWCPKm0yjQBigDbSEPL

They'll find someone to run the family or use a group of people to run it, they always do

It would be a bad idea for them to consolidate, reason being, it would make the FBI's job easier to keep tabs on them. Just as the task forces for the Bonanno's and Colombo's have consolidated because the crews have become so small. It would make more sense for them to spread out, or make it seem so to confuse law enforcement a little, giving the illusion that there are more families operating. If law enforcement thought that there were 10 crime families in NYC, then that would throw them off, kind of like a shuffle if it makes sense. Then they wouldn't know who belongs to what group (unless someone rats) and if they can't pin them to a certain group, then RICO is harder to pin on them.

Interesting premise, the problem I see with that is that there are many people informing (many out on the street right now) so as soon as this happens the feds would know almsot simultaneously given all the surveillance they do and wiretaps, etc. Also, I dont think the families would be able to "spread out" much more as you describe as there arent really tons of made guys that would quantify the addition of numerous "other families", in a sense this is already happening but when you think of different crews. Each family has various crews that comprise it and make up the family.

Despite the idea being floated at the last known Commission meeting, in the end, there is nothing in it for the other NY families to absorb the Colombos. Like with the Bonannos in the past, they may keep them at arms length, as well as pick off some of their rackets among all the turmoil.

Do the other families recognise them as a family nowadays?

Yeah, I'd assume the Colombo's are still recognized Short. Remember peoples, it's the leadership that is constantly under indictment and turmoil both publicly and on the streets. The rank and file Colombo's seem to be doing an alright job.

Of course. The Colombos are still very viable and are not going anywhere anytime soon. Don't buy into all the "sinking ship" bull.

Nicholas is right what enables the mafia to still be viable is when the adminstration of a family gets picked up it throws a wrench in operations but all the soldiers and capos keep on truckin, same with informants they usually just effect a certain faction or crew not the entire family unless its a boss,underboss,consigliere or extremely powerful capo or soldier

Ivy I meant it in an other way. Ini king of the godfathers sal vitale said that dissolving it or employing the current members and associates into the other families or it was generally NOT recognising it has a family

There is no doubt that La Cosa Nostra is an amoral organization powered by money, ambition and greed. It is currently comprised with Italian descendants that are nurtured by family ties and old world values.

They are the dark side of the Italian work ethic that nobody should aspire to or idolize. But I thought the initial question was directed from a "connected" point of view, how will the Colombos survive? What needs to be done with the administration? Is the Persico element still a factor?

With that in-mind, I still firmly believe from a middle-man view that if the next generation of Colombos expect to survive through FBI and LE infiltration the Persico element needs to be rubbed out.

I hope this was not lost in translation and those are now aware I am not an advocate or a supporter of any OC organization.

The Persico element is not hurting nor helping the family, the biggest factor thats contributed to all the recent indictments and many over the past 15 years is that they decided to go to war which brought way too much heat on the family and even if Carmine Persico stepped down the Colombos would still be continued to get attacked

whats going on with andrew russo after the bust last year? is he waiting for trial or pled guilty?

^still at the MDC and waiting for trial i believe

i think capeci said he was trying to plead out

Colombs should merge with Genovese
Also there are Italian criminals loafs to be precise this day and age who wants to go for a legit job with all that money to be made from mafia operations

I'd bet the Genovese family wouldn't be too keen on that idea.

As I've said before, I personally think all the "merge" talk is fantasy. But hypothetically speaking, if it did happen - and even then it wouldn't be for years to come - the Colombos would be more likely to merge with the Bonannos. Or either of those families with the Gambinos.

True the Banana's are short on muscle and respect since their Boss became a rat the two weak familys merging would put the bonano's with 40-50 new members putting them above luchese and almost on par with the gambino's