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mafia's drug sales

Posted By: botz

mafia's drug sales - 03/04/12 03:36 PM

It seems like the mafia these days sell drugs such as pills mostly or marijuana the cheaper drugs. Does the mafia sell drugs like cocaine or heroin the high value drugs anymore. Also would the mafia have any connections with the Latin American drug cartels or Corsican/Sicilians to by drugs from.
Posted By: Five_Felonies

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/04/12 04:06 PM

in my opinion the only drugs where the mafia is at or near top dog status would be prescription pills, mainly oxycodone and to a lesser extent benzos such as xanax or valium. oxy abuse has reached epidemic levels in the northeast and there are insane amounts of money to be made. by now most people with any drug knowledge are aware of south floridas pill mills, and with all five families maintaining a somewhat strong influence there it makes sense to me that there has to be lots of involvement with shipping the pills north. it also helps that these drugs are sold more in the suburbs which means less chance imo of conflicts with other groups. the mafia is also heavily involved with marijuana cultivation and distrubution as ther have been a number of grow houses with links to lcn. pot has such a wide customer base that there seems to be room for everyone. in terms of heroin and cocaine, the mafia in the us seem to be mid-level at best. gone are the days of the pizza connection, and even more importantly is the fact that most of the heroin in the united states is imported from columbia and mexico today, rather than sicily. the only mafia groups with direct links to the cartels seem to be the calabrians.
Posted By: botz

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/04/12 04:27 PM

Does the Rizzuto's and the other italian crime families in Canada sell heroin and cocaine still? The Italians in Canada seem to have more close connections to their homeland.
Posted By: Five_Felonies

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/04/12 04:59 PM

not sure about heroin on a major scale but i know that the rizzutos are the top dogs when it comes to cocaine in canada. vito has/had some major south american connections from what i remember hearing. the heroin trade in canada seems to be controlled more by asian gangs around vancover bringing the stuff in from southeast asia primarily. and to a lesser extent some tar from some of the mexican orgs.
Posted By: Scorsese

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/04/12 10:23 PM

A few of the reports i have read have stated east indian gangs as major heroin trafickers in western and mid canada.
In the states i think that drug cartels mostly just work directly with the major dealers and street gangs. Probably saves them the money and manpower of having to keep sending too many people to all the different cities they work in.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/04/12 11:50 PM

The 2009 DEA report cited the LCN as being more involved in marijuana and ecstasy, and to a "lesser extent," cocaine and heroin. However, if you look at the LCN drug cases themselves over the past decade, they still seem to be pretty big into cocaine as well. Not so much heroin anymore. And, as said, now there are prescription drugs as well.
Posted By: Scorsese

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/05/12 10:39 AM

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=79...pg=4742,1508651
http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/lucchese-family-sold-oxy-from
I definatley think that for most part they are mid level traffickers, with a minority above that.
Oxycontin seems to be the drug of choice now for mob drug traffickers. Were probably gonna see more working ties to other groups like street gangs in the near future. Do you guys think that the luchesse leadership looked down on that relationship with the bloods in that nj case or do you think they encourage it to make money and connections?
How many guys do you think sell drugs in each family?
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 12:42 AM

What you had was Joe Perna, an LCN soldier, having contact with a Blood "five star general." It's not like Spears would have gotten anywhere near DiNapoli or Madonna. But you are right about the mob and drugs. In general, they're at the mid-levels now.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 01:20 AM

I may have posted this before. It's a list by year of LCN busts that included narcotics charges and what family/drugs were involved.



June 2000
Bonanno Family - marijuana

November 2000
Lucchese Family - cocaine

December 2000
Gambino Family - heroin

February 2001
Colombo Family - marijuana, ecstasy

March 2001
Lucchese Family - cocaine

April 2001
Genovese Family - drug trafficking

October 2001
Bonanno Family - cocaine

December 2001
Lucchese Family - ecstasy

January 2002
Gambino Family - cocaine

March 2002
Bonanno Family - cocaine

November 2002
Lucchese Family - cocaine, marijuana, vicodin

November 2002
Bonanno Family - cocaine

December 2002
Bonanno/Lucchese Family - drug trafficking

January 2003
Gambino Family - marijuana

April 2003
Gambino Family - crystal meth, ecstasy, cocaine, marijuana, steroids, vicodin, valium

June 2003
Genovese Family - cocaine

October 2003
Colombo/Bonanno Family - marijuana

January 2004
Bonanno Family - marijuana, ecstasy

December 2004
Genovese/Lucchese/Bonanno Family - cocaine
Gambino Family - cocaine

January 2005
Bonanno Family - heroin, crack cocaine

February 2005
Bonanno Family - drug trafficking

March 2005
Genovese Family - oxycontin, ecstasy, marijuana
Genovese Family - cocaine

May 2005
Gambino Family - prescription drugs

January 2006
Bonanno Family - drug trafficking

February 2006
Genovese Family - cocaine, anabolic steroids
Genovese Family - cocaine, marijuana

March 2006
Gambino Family - marijuana

May 2006
Gambino Family - drug trafficking

June 2006
Bonanno Family - marijuana, ecstasy
Genovese Family - cocaine

September 2006
Bonanno Family - marijuana

October 2006
Gambino Family - marijuana

December 2006
Colombo Family - cocaine, marijuana

February 2007
Bonanno Family - drug trafficking

March 2007
Gambino Family - vicodin

May 2007
Gambino Family - steroids

December 2007
Lucchese Family - heroin
Genovese Family - drug trafficking

February 2008
Gambino Family - cocaine, marijuana
Lucchese Family - marijuana
Genovese Family - cocaine

March 2008
Genovese Family - cocaine, crack, marijuana, prescription drugs

June 2008
Colombo Family - marijuana, cocaine

August 2008
Gambino Family - cocaine
Bonanno Family - drug trafficking

September 2008
Genovese Family - cocaine

November 2008
Lucchese Family - cocaine

February 2009
Genovese Family - cocaine, crack
Bonanno Family - marijuana

May 2009
Bonanno Family - oxycodone, hydrocone

September 2009
Lucchese Family - painkiller narcotics

October 2009
Bonanno Family - marijuana

December 2009
Colombo Family - marijuana

February 2010
Gambino Family - oxycodone
Gambino Family - marijuana

April 2010
Genovese Family - drug trafficking
Gambino Family - cocaine, oxycontin, marijuana

January 2011
Colombo Family - marijuana
Gambino Family - cocaine, marijuana, ecstasy

March 2011
Bonanno Family - marijuana, steroids
Lucchese Family - oxycodone

June 2011
Gambino Family - oxycodone

August 2011
Gambino Family - marijuana, cocaine
Bonanno Family - cocaine

December 2011
Colombo Family - prescription drugs

January 2012
Bonanno Family - marijuana
Posted By: Five_Felonies

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 01:23 AM

thats very useful, thanks. interesting that the busts mirror the flavor of the month when it comes to drugs. if i had to guess i would say that prescription drugs are the #1 money maker now followed by pot, with heroin and coke following.
Posted By: Nicholas

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 01:23 AM

In the States, weed and XTC. Prescription pills and steroids in New York/suburban Staten Island.

Only the Italian-Italians have contacts with Mexican cartels, i.e. cocaine shipments to Europe. I doubt there's American wiseguys with contacts and access to Mexican cartel members.

Grow houses in New York for weed however are big.
Posted By: Five_Felonies

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 01:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Nicholas
In the States, weed and XTC. Prescription pills and steroids in New York/suburban Staten Island.

Only the Italian-Italians have contacts with Mexican cartels, i.e. cocaine shipments to Europe. I doubt there's American wiseguys with contacts and access to Mexican cartel members.

Grow houses in New York for weed however are big.
pretty much spot on man. xtc doesnt seem to be nearly as big in the northeast as it was in the 90's. oxycodone is literally all over the place over here as well as the pot but ive heard its very expensive frown , not like in cali smile
Posted By: Nicholas

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 01:50 AM

California and the marijuana thing we've got goin' on here....

...damn we abused it. Feds shut down most of the marijuana clinics after most of the 'patients' were 19 year old pothead kids. Though it's hopeful that California's system will influence the eventual legalization of marijuana.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 02:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Nicholas
In the States, weed and XTC. Prescription pills and steroids in New York/suburban Staten Island.

Only the Italian-Italians have contacts with Mexican cartels, i.e. cocaine shipments to Europe. I doubt there's American wiseguys with contacts and access to Mexican cartel members.

Grow houses in New York for weed however are big.


The 2009 DEA report said the American LCN was increasingly working with Mexican DTO's, which are basically extensions of the cartels in Mexico. Whether it be other Italians, the Colombians, Dominicans, or Mexicans, the American LCN guys have to get their cocaine from somewhere.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 02:43 AM

Here's the cases that included drug charges involving other families -


April 2000
Chicago Family - cocaine

June 2000
Buffalo/Rochester Family - cocaine

March 2001
Philadelphia Family - drug trafficking

June 2001
Kansas City Family - ecstasy, cocaine

October 2001
New England Family - drug trafficking

April 2002
Chicago Family - marijuana

May 2002
Buffalo Family - drug trafficking

September 2002
New England Family - cocaine, marijuana

December 2002
New England Family - drug trafficking

May 2003
Philadelphia Family - cocaine

January 2004
Tampa Family - marijuana

January 2005
New England Family - cocaine

February 2005
New England Family - prescription drugs
NE PA Family - drug trafficking

January 2006
New England Family - marijuana, vicodin

June 2006
Buffalo Family - cocaine

October 2006
Philadelphia Family - steroids

November 2006
Philadelphia Family - cocaine

December 2006
New England Family - marijuana, steroids, and vicodin

August 2007
New England Family - heroin

July 2008
Philadelphia Family - drug trafficking

September 2008
Philadelphia Family - crystal meth

November 2009
New England Family - cocaine, marijuana, vicodin

February 2009
New England Family - marijuana

March 2009
Kansas City Family - meth

May 2010
New England Family - heroin

October 2010
New England Family - heroin, marijuana

November 2010
New England Family - oxycontin, oxycodone, percocet, vicodin

April 2011
Philadelphia Family - prescription medications
Posted By: Nicholas

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 03:02 AM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague

The 2009 DEA report said the American LCN was increasingly working with Mexican DTO's, which are basically extensions of the cartels in Mexico. Whether it be other Italians, the Colombians, Dominicans, or Mexicans, the American LCN guys have to get their cocaine from somewhere.


Thanks for the list you provided in the next post, fucking incredible information. Surprised to see the stuff on Buffalo, KC and the smaller families.

It's surprising to see Italian-American wiseguys working with Mexican cartels, simply because of geography of comfortable territory. Though Mexican cartels are eager to operate over the entire United States, so them in New York or the Greater Northeast is not surprising.
Posted By: Nicholas

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 03:06 AM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Here's the cases that included drug charges involving other families -

April 2000
Chicago Family - cocaine

June 2000
Buffalo/Rochester Family - cocaine


June 2001
Kansas City Family - ecstasy, cocaine


April 2002
Chicago Family - marijuana

May 2002
Buffalo Family - drug trafficking

January 2004
Tampa Family - marijuana

February 2005
NE PA Family - drug trafficking

June 2006
Buffalo Family - cocaine


March 2009
Kansas City Family - meth


Very, very interesting.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 03:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Nicholas


Thanks for the list you provided in the next post, fucking incredible information. Surprised to see the stuff on Buffalo, KC and the smaller families.

It's surprising to see Italian-American wiseguys working with Mexican cartels, simply because of geography of comfortable territory. Though Mexican cartels are eager to operate over the entire United States, so them in New York or the Greater Northeast is not surprising.


I think that's basically the reason, i.e. the Mexicans have been expanding into the northeast in recent years. They're the dominant drug trafficking group in the rest of the country already. The northeast was the last region where the Colombians still supplied most of the cocaine. And there is more competition from Asians, Cubans, Dominicans, Italians, etc.
Posted By: botz

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 03:37 AM

Does the Decavalcante Family sell drugs?
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 03:45 AM

Originally Posted By: botz
Does the Decavalcante Family sell drugs?


That's a good question. Frank Polizzi was back in the day. But I haven't been able to find a single case of that family being involved in drugs over the past decade. Well, unless you count indirectly being involved like when drugs were sold in Vinny Palermo's strip clubs.
Posted By: Nicholas

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 03:50 AM

What I found so interesting about that list you provided were the smaller families...glorified crews that were big into drugs
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 03:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Nicholas
What I found so interesting about that list you provided were the smaller families...glorified crews that were big into drugs


Though obviously not as big of an income producer for them as gambling, drugs to seem to be a staple for the New England and Philadelphia families. Not so much the case with New Jersey or Chicago. As for the others, I don't know if I would say they were "big" into drugs. Well, the Trafficante operation had smuggled $80 million worth of marijuana from Mexico but that was over a 15 year period.
Posted By: Nicholas

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 04:05 AM

Yeah, but Buffalo, Rochester, Kansas City and NE Pennsylvania.

Those families are often called extinct.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 04:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Nicholas
Yeah, but Buffalo, Rochester, Kansas City and NE Pennsylvania.

Those families are often called extinct.


They are, for all intents and purposes. In these places you had remnants of these families (i.e. individual members) involved. For instance, the Buffalo/Rochester case in June 2000 involved Thomas Marotta. The June 2006 case involved 11 people, of which 1 (Leonard Mordino) was a Buffalo LCN associate.
Posted By: Nicholas

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 04:59 AM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague


They are, for all intents and purposes. In these places you had remnants of these families (i.e. individual members) involved. For instance, the Buffalo/Rochester case in June 2000 involved Thomas Marotta. The June 2006 case involved 11 people, of which 1 (Leonard Mordino) was a Buffalo LCN associate.


Geez...mafia whiz kid. You're a savant of LCN history.

Though those drug pinches were signs of a viable existence, particularly in how recent the Buffalo one and in particular the KC bust
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 05:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Nicholas

Geez...mafia whiz kid. You're a savant of LCN history.

Though those drug pinches were signs of a viable existence, particularly in how recent the Buffalo one and in particular the KC bust


When I use the term "viable," I mean families that still meet the RICO standard - ongoing activity in behalf of an organization. Buffalo, Kansas City, etc. really don't meet that basic criteria anymore.
Posted By: Nicholas

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 07:01 AM

Good point.

Though I have to nitpick about RICO. That is the definition, however RICO can be applied for individuals.

An example of a case my old man did:

A doctor who who ran several clinics, would get the death certificates of recently deceased peoples and then bill Medicare for services that he did not do. Exams, minor surgeries, etc.
Since this was Medicare, the Feds got involved. Since there were several clinics and an ongoing pattern of criminal activity, this individual was charged under the RICO statute.
Posted By: Scorsese

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/06/12 08:45 AM

The gambinos def had some cartel connection for all the cocaine they were trafficking in parts of queens. They probably have lost a bit of territory though since the arrests.
Posted By: Scorsese

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/07/12 07:32 PM

Then again it not just a case of cartels. That record exec jimmy rosemond was shipping cocaine over from another black supplier on the west coast. Dominicans seem to be the dominant distributors, buying wholesale heroin and cutting it down and packaging for street level sales to the city drug gangs. I think that mob guys would make use of local sources more than they would anything else.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/07/12 09:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Nicholas
Good point.

Though I have to nitpick about RICO. That is the definition, however RICO can be applied for individuals.

An example of a case my old man did:

A doctor who who ran several clinics, would get the death certificates of recently deceased peoples and then bill Medicare for services that he did not do. Exams, minor surgeries, etc.
Since this was Medicare, the Feds got involved. Since there were several clinics and an ongoing pattern of criminal activity, this individual was charged under the RICO statute.

Interesting case. It corresponds to my impression of RICO-actionable activities.

Under a broad definition of RICO, a person who got into hock with a Mob-connected loanshark and had to bust out his business to pay off the debt could be charged under RICO as being part of a "racketeer influenced corrupt organization." That would make the victim all the more willing to cooperate with the Feds in exchange for a lighter sentence or Witness Protection.

Best succinct summary of RICO history and intent is found in Selwyn Raab's masterful "The Five Families."
Posted By: m2w

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/07/12 11:48 PM

Quote:
the Mexicans have been expanding into the northeast in recent years. They're the dominant drug trafficking group in the rest of the country already


but mexicans produce some cocaine by themselves or they buy it all in colombia? the fact that they supply the american market it doesnt mean they are powerful i dont think the cartels are so active in the states they just send drugs to local gangs from what i read but they dont control any specific territory
Posted By: Five_Felonies

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/08/12 12:21 AM


Originally Posted By: m2w
but mexicans produce some cocaine by themselves or they buy it all in colombia? the fact that they supply the american market it doesnt mean they are powerful i dont think the cartels are so active in the states they just send drugs to local gangs from what i read but they dont control any specific territory
cocaine is produced in columbia, peru, and bolivia primarily with small amounts produced in brazil and equador. no cocaine is produced in mexico. cartels are extremely influential in the united states particularly in the southwest border states, but other places as well.
Posted By: m2w

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/08/12 01:34 AM

Quote:
cartels are extremely influential in the united states particularly in the southwest border states, but other places as well.


but i mean if they control territories in some specific city or they just sell drugs to local gangs? because if they just sell it doesnt mean they have a powerbase
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/08/12 03:39 AM

The Mexicans still have to get their cocaine from the Colombians or others in South America. But like the Colombians, they are able to produce their own high grade heroin. As well as the other drugs, i.e. marijuana, meth, etc.

Although it's a few years out of date, the link below shows the U.S. cities where the major cartels had a presence in 2008.

http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs27/27986/appenda.htm
Posted By: Five_Felonies

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/08/12 03:52 AM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
The Mexicans still have to get their cocaine from the Colombians or others in South America. But like the Colombians, they are able to produce their own high grade heroin. As well as the other drugs, i.e. marijuana, meth, etc.

Although it's a few years out of date, the link below shows the U.S. cities where the major cartels had a presence in 2008.

http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs27/27986/appenda.htm
with regards to heroin, the black tar produced in mexico is a much cruder product than the columbian powder and said to be an inferior product to the powder heroin that dominates the northeast,although in recent years there has been evidence of the mexican cartels recruiting columbian chemists to help break into the extremly lucritive northeast market.
Posted By: m2w

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/08/12 03:58 AM

Quote:
Although it's a few years out of date, the link below shows the U.S. cities where the major cartels had a presence in 2008


what they mean for presence? just individual members who sell drugs to local gangs or consistent and permament groups that have big deals in these cities?
Posted By: Five_Felonies

Re: mafia's drug sales - 03/08/12 04:02 AM

Originally Posted By: m2w


[quote=m2w]but i mean if they control territories in some specific city or they just sell drugs to local gangs? because if they just sell it doesnt mean they have a powerbase
being top level suppliers always means that they will maintain a degree of control or should i say influence. do they control every street corner or every gangbanger? no, but nobody in the american underworld has complete control be it the mafia or a local street gang. like i said earlier is that they maintain an influence within set areas. follow the money!
Posted By: ManofHonor

Re: mafia's drug sales - 04/30/12 02:08 AM

It is not allowed but that only covers made men.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 04/30/12 06:50 PM

Originally Posted By: ManofHonor
It is not allowed but that only covers made men.


Made guys aren't allowed to traffic in drugs? Since when? Is that you, Dan? whistle
Posted By: carmela

Re: mafia's drug sales - 04/30/12 06:52 PM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: ManofHonor
It is not allowed but that only covers made men.


Made guys aren't allowed to traffic in drugs? Since when? Is that you, Dan? whistle


grin

Whale Sperm!!
Posted By: Johnny_muscles_Manino

Re: mafia's drug sales - 04/30/12 07:54 PM

Someone needz to control the f--king guyss.They act like animals around here. They need guidelines, boundaries, supplying these guys is like dealing with moronic monkeys escaped from a zoo.a disgrace! [s][/s]
Posted By: Mussolini14

Re: mafia's drug sales - 04/30/12 08:22 PM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: Nicholas
In the States, weed and XTC. Prescription pills and steroids in New York/suburban Staten Island.

Only the Italian-Italians have contacts with Mexican cartels, i.e. cocaine shipments to Europe. I doubt there's American wiseguys with contacts and access to Mexican cartel members.

Grow houses in New York for weed however are big.


The 2009 DEA report said the American LCN was increasingly working with Mexican DTO's, which are basically extensions of the cartels in Mexico. Whether it be other Italians, the Colombians, Dominicans, or Mexicans, the American LCN guys have to get their cocaine from somewhere.


for such non viable families i sure see Kansas city and Buffalo on your list a lot. Maybe what the FBI says isn't always 100% accurate?
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 04/30/12 09:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Mussolini14

for such non viable families i sure see Kansas city and Buffalo on your list a lot. Maybe what the FBI says isn't always 100% accurate?


If you're talking about indictments since 2000, there really haven't been much for either Kansas City or Buffalo. Furthermore, it's been years since the feds even bothered to release a chart of those families. Neither of them have been included in any articles in recent years listing remaining families. Once again, of course, that doesn't mean there aren't members still alive, some who are still active.
Posted By: Mussolini14

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/01/12 12:14 AM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: Mussolini14

for such non viable families i sure see Kansas city and Buffalo on your list a lot. Maybe what the FBI says isn't always 100% accurate?


If you're talking about indictments since 2000, there really haven't been much for either Kansas City or Buffalo. Furthermore, it's been years since the feds even bothered to release a chart of those families. Neither of them have been included in any articles in recent years listing remaining families. Once again, of course, that doesn't mean there aren't members still alive, some who are still active.


You just displayed a chart indicating multiple drug busts for Kansas City and Buffalo since 2000. So what is it? There needs to be charts released and articles written for them to be "viable"? Drugs busts are not indicative of that?
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/01/12 12:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Mussolini14

You just displayed a chart indicating multiple drug busts for Kansas City and Buffalo since 2000. So what is it? There needs to be charts released and articles written for them to be "viable"? Drugs busts are not indicative of that?


No. A couple cases each for Buffalo and Kansas City, in which individual members or associates have been busted for trafficking in drugs, isn't really a sign of a viable family. For a viable family, it needs to meet the RICO criteria - ongoing criminal activity in behalf of an organization. Neither Buffalo or Kansas City really has either.
Posted By: Mussolini14

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/01/12 12:28 AM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: Mussolini14

You just displayed a chart indicating multiple drug busts for Kansas City and Buffalo since 2000. So what is it? There needs to be charts released and articles written for them to be "viable"? Drugs busts are not indicative of that?


No. A couple cases each for Buffalo and Kansas City, in which individual members or associates have been busted for trafficking in drugs, isn't really a sign of a viable family. For a viable family, it needs to meet the RICO criteria - ongoing criminal activity in behalf of an organization. Neither Buffalo or Kansas City really has either.




Well isn't any bust just an "individual" member or an associate? I haven't heard of any bust of "The Gambino Family" or "The Genovese Family". Usually on an indictment it just says an individuals name, no?

Furthermore do you know if those individuals were kicking up? Does the chart specify if they were pocketing all the $, kicking any up, or paying tribute?

From where I'm standing you are really contradicting what you usually assert on the boards.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/01/12 12:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Mussolini14


Well isn't any bust just an "individual" member or an associate? I haven't heard of any bust of "The Gambino Family" or "The Genovese Family". Usually on an indictment it just says an individuals name, no?

Furthermore do you know if those individuals were kicking up? Does the chart specify if they were pocketing all the $, kicking any up, or paying tribute?


In New York, or New England for example, there's been multiple mob/drug cases, involving several guys who have been named in this position or that position, over an extended period of time. In other words, it's activity that is obviously sanctioned and/or run by the family. It's not at all that clear in the handful of cases in Buffalo or Kansas City.
Posted By: Mussolini14

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/01/12 12:43 AM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: Mussolini14


Well isn't any bust just an "individual" member or an associate? I haven't heard of any bust of "The Gambino Family" or "The Genovese Family". Usually on an indictment it just says an individuals name, no?

Furthermore do you know if those individuals were kicking up? Does the chart specify if they were pocketing all the $, kicking any up, or paying tribute?


In New York, or New England for example, there's been multiple mob/drug cases, involving several guys who have been named in this position or that position, over an extended period of time. In other words, it's activity that is obviously sanctioned and/or run by the family. It's not at all that clear in the handful of cases in Buffalo or Kansas City.


You're right, it isn't clear so how can you arrive at the conclusion that "they were not kicking up or acting on behalf of the enterprise"? You admit there are still made guys in Buffalo and Kansas City right? So unless these life long criminals all the sudden decide they no longer want what is rightfully theirs ( tribute $) I would safely say the accused were kicking up and therefore at least to some extent acting on behalf of a criminal enterprise.

Finally do you not agree that anyone made guy or associate operating in these supposed "non viable" areas loves the perception that the mafia is dead in their area?

I know your formula for indicating where viable families still are based on FBI indictments and statements makes sense on paper but to think that all FBI agencies operate on the same level with the same priorities in every city is horribly flawed. To draw the conclusion that Detroit or Buffalo is extinct because they don't have the amount of mafia indictments as NY or CHicago is the same as saying "the Detroit FBI branch allocates the same amount of resources and priority to mafia activity as the FBI in NYC does and since they do not have the same number of indictment the mafia must be non viable in Detroit".

Now I do not know in which cities the mafia is still active in, but IMO your formula in which you use to base your conclusions is seriously flawed.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/01/12 01:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Mussolini14


You're right, it isn't clear so how can you arrive at the conclusion that "they were not kicking up or acting on behalf of the enterprise"? You admit there are still made guys in Buffalo and Kansas City right? So unless these life long criminals all the sudden decide they no longer want what is rightfully theirs ( tribute $) I would safely say the accused were kicking up and therefore at least to some extent acting on behalf of a criminal enterprise.

Finally do you not agree that anyone made guy or associate operating in these supposed "non viable" areas loves the perception that the mafia is dead in their area?

I know your formula for indicating where viable families still are based on FBI indictments and statements makes sense on paper but to think that all FBI agencies operate on the same level with the same priorities in every city is horribly flawed. To draw the conclusion that Detroit or Buffalo is extinct because they don't have the amount of mafia indictments as NY or CHicago is the same as saying "the Detroit FBI branch allocates the same amount of resources and priority to mafia activity as the FBI in NYC does and since they do not have the same number of indictment the mafia must be non viable in Detroit".

Now I do not know in which cities the mafia is still active in, but IMO your formula in which you use to base your conclusions is seriously flawed.


I've heard these same arguments from others.

First, it's not my formula. It's not like I've come up with my own 50 point checklist of what makes a viable family. I'm going by the minimal RICO criteria that defines organized crime - which only requires two things.

Again, neither Buffalo or Kansas City has been included on any official list of viable families for over a decade now. Detroit is on some but not on others. And the mob cases in all three cities have been few and far between for years now. What we see in these areas is more a case of residual activity from remnants of families that once were.
Posted By: Mussolini14

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/01/12 02:38 AM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: Mussolini14


You're right, it isn't clear so how can you arrive at the conclusion that "they were not kicking up or acting on behalf of the enterprise"? You admit there are still made guys in Buffalo and Kansas City right? So unless these life long criminals all the sudden decide they no longer want what is rightfully theirs ( tribute $) I would safely say the accused were kicking up and therefore at least to some extent acting on behalf of a criminal enterprise.

Finally do you not agree that anyone made guy or associate operating in these supposed "non viable" areas loves the perception that the mafia is dead in their area?

I know your formula for indicating where viable families still are based on FBI indictments and statements makes sense on paper but to think that all FBI agencies operate on the same level with the same priorities in every city is horribly flawed. To draw the conclusion that Detroit or Buffalo is extinct because they don't have the amount of mafia indictments as NY or CHicago is the same as saying "the Detroit FBI branch allocates the same amount of resources and priority to mafia activity as the FBI in NYC does and since they do not have the same number of indictment the mafia must be non viable in Detroit".

Now I do not know in which cities the mafia is still active in, but IMO your formula in which you use to base your conclusions is seriously flawed.


I've heard these same arguments from others.

First, it's not my formula. It's not like I've come up with my own 50 point checklist of what makes a viable family. I'm going by the minimal RICO criteria that defines organized crime - which only requires two things.

Again, neither Buffalo or Kansas City has been included on any official list of viable families for over a decade now. Detroit is on some but not on others. And the mob cases in all three cities have been few and far between for years now. What we see in these areas is more a case of residual activity from remnants of families that once were.


If I'm a mobster striving to be the best in my field the perception you espouse is music to my ears.
A guy as savvy as Tocco loves your opinion on this matter.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/01/12 05:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Mussolini14

If I'm a mobster striving to be the best in my field the perception you espouse is music to my ears.
A guy as savvy as Tocco loves your opinion on this matter.


I've heard that argument too. "Oh, they're just laying low." Heck, if that's the case, the Dallas and Denver families really must be plugging along. Haven't heard anything from them in decades.
Posted By: Nicholas

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/01/12 07:35 AM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague

If you're talking about indictments since 2000, there really haven't been much for either Kansas City or Buffalo. Furthermore, it's been years since the feds even bothered to release a chart of those families.


That really says a lot (the part that I bolded).

Though I think of Kansas City as more active than Detroit.
Posted By: Mussolini14

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/01/12 12:29 PM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: Mussolini14

If I'm a mobster striving to be the best in my field the perception you espouse is music to my ears.
A guy as savvy as Tocco loves your opinion on this matter.


I've heard that argument too. "Oh, they're just laying low." Heck, if that's the case, the Dallas and Denver families really must be plugging along. Haven't heard anything from them in decades.



You are using you're same flawed logic again IVY , in that if one family is just laying low then they all must be, as if it is not possible for several families to being laying low and other to be defunct. Not surprising though as you seem to believe all FBI agencies have the same agenda, priorities and allocated resources the same.

You assuming mob families and are carbon copies of one another is flawed. You assuming FBI agencies are all carbon copies of one another is flawed. Unless you can show some date that FBI agencies across the USA allocate the same percentage of $ to combat the mafia vs Street gangs, counter terrorism, ect than the formula you ascribe to has no merit.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/01/12 10:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Mussolini14
You are using you're same flawed logic again IVY , in that if one family is just laying low then they all must be, as if it is not possible for several families to being laying low and other to be defunct. Not surprising though as you seem to believe all FBI agencies have the same agenda, priorities and allocated resources the same.

You assuming mob families and are carbon copies of one another is flawed. You assuming FBI agencies are all carbon copies of one another is flawed. Unless you can show some date that FBI agencies across the USA allocate the same percentage of $ to combat the mafia vs Street gangs, counter terrorism, ect than the formula you ascribe to has no merit.


So when exactly do we write a family off? When every last person, including every Joe Schmoe on a message board, agrees that a specific family is gone? Because I've had people insist there are still families in New Orleans, Rockford, Denver, San Francisco, etc. Do we have to wait 20 years of little to no activity? 50 years? FBI not allocating resources to a given family is evidence in itself.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/01/12 10:48 PM

"The Mafia remains potent in the New York City area, where officials say the mob is hard to uproot because it has five separate and large crime families, and in the suburbs of Chicago. But in most other areas, where prosecutors have to contend with only a single family, the legendary mob that once controlled entire labor unions, city governments, and criminal enterprises has clearly lost its grip." (1990)
http://www.the-laborers.org/lexisnexis/articles/mob_in_decline.htm

"Only New York and Chicago have substantial Mafia organizations." (1997)
http://www.slate.com/id/1054/

The estimated made membership of the LCN is 1100 nationwide, with roughly 80% of the members operating in the New York metropolitan area. There are five crime families that make up the LCN in New York City: the Bonanno, the Colombo, the Genovese, the Gambino, and the Lucchese families. There is also LCN operational activity in Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, and the Miami\South Florida area, but much less so than in New York. In other previous strongholds such as Cleveland, Detroit, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, New Orleans, and Pittsburgh, the LCN is now weak or non-existent. La Cosa Nostra is a high priority for the FBI and for law enforcement in New York City. Elsewhere, however, it is a low priority, with attention being characterized by members as "hit and miss" because of a belief that "things are under control." (1999)
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/218555.pdf

The LCN is most active in the New York metropolitan area, parts of New Jersey, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and New England. It has members in other major cities and is involved in international crimes. (2000)
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/organizedcrime/italian_mafia/?searchterm=lacosanostra

"Only families in New York and Chicago, the largest traditional bases, retained a semblance of organizational frameworks. Elsewhere in the nation, the twenty-odd borgatas were in disarray or practically defunct, except in areas where the New York and Chicago families had branches, especially in Florida. The remaining strength of the Mob was largely concentrated in New York and the Northeast Corridor." (Raab, Five Families - 2005)

"Cosa Nostra, once a nationwide organization of Italian-American mobsters, is down to one outfit in Chicago and New York City's five organized families - the Bonannos, Colombos, Gambinos, Genovese, and Luccheses. They are about 'all that's left,' Mob historian Selwyn Raab says." (2005)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-03-09-mafia-cover_x.htm

Once boasting 26 families nationwide, the mob is down to 11, half of those confined to the New York area. Moreover, the Mafia's influence still extends far beyond New York. There remain active families in Chicago, Detroit, New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia, and Miami. (2006)
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/badguys/060912/the_mafia_a_21stcentury_cosa_n.htm

"They're beleaguered, battered, and bruised but they are far from wiped out. They have been hurt by nearly three decades of prosecutions, mostly by federal authorities. But the five families in New York and those in other metropolitan areas, notably Chicago and its suburbs, remain viable criminal networks. (2006)
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/05/weekinreview/05capeci.html

Today, families in former strongholds like Cleveland, Tampa, and Los Angeles are gone. our thing - as initiates called the mob - is in serious decline everywhere but New York City. (2007)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-25-2782988181_x.htm

"There are 9 La Cosa Nostra families throughout the country; five of them exist in New York." (Michael Franzese, 2009)

Most members of the LCN operate in the New York metropolitan area, but there are also criminal operations in Boston, Chicago, Newark, Detroit, Philadelphia, and Miami. (2010)
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40525.pdf

"While the Mafia - also known as La Cosa Nostra - may no longer possess the robust national presence it once had, it remains a significant threat in the extended New York metropolitan area, New England, Philadelphia, Chicago, and Detroit." (2011)
http://documents.latimes.com/fbis-mafia-family-tree/

Even after imprisonment of senior leadership, it survives, and in some places thrives, though most experts agree that its operations are now largely confined to its traditional bases in the Northeast and Chicago. (2011)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704115404576096392318489246.html
Posted By: ManofHonor

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 12:38 AM

It is one of the rules from the old country. They call them the 10 commandments.
Posted By: Mussolini14

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 12:55 AM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
"The Mafia remains potent in the New York City area, where officials say the mob is hard to uproot because it has five separate and large crime families, and in the suburbs of Chicago. But in most other areas, where prosecutors have to contend with only a single family, the legendary mob that once controlled entire labor unions, city governments, and criminal enterprises has clearly lost its grip." (1990)
http://www.the-laborers.org/lexisnexis/articles/mob_in_decline.htm

"Only New York and Chicago have substantial Mafia organizations." (1997)
http://www.slate.com/id/1054/

The estimated made membership of the LCN is 1100 nationwide, with roughly 80% of the members operating in the New York metropolitan area. There are five crime families that make up the LCN in New York City: the Bonanno, the Colombo, the Genovese, the Gambino, and the Lucchese families. There is also LCN operational activity in Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, and the Miami\South Florida area, but much less so than in New York. In other previous strongholds such as Cleveland, Detroit, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, New Orleans, and Pittsburgh, the LCN is now weak or non-existent. La Cosa Nostra is a high priority for the FBI and for law enforcement in New York City. Elsewhere, however, it is a low priority, with attention being characterized by members as "hit and miss" because of a belief that "things are under control." (1999)
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/218555.pdf

The LCN is most active in the New York metropolitan area, parts of New Jersey, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and New England. It has members in other major cities and is involved in international crimes. (2000)
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/organizedcrime/italian_mafia/?searchterm=lacosanostra

"Only families in New York and Chicago, the largest traditional bases, retained a semblance of organizational frameworks. Elsewhere in the nation, the twenty-odd borgatas were in disarray or practically defunct, except in areas where the New York and Chicago families had branches, especially in Florida. The remaining strength of the Mob was largely concentrated in New York and the Northeast Corridor." (Raab, Five Families - 2005)

"Cosa Nostra, once a nationwide organization of Italian-American mobsters, is down to one outfit in Chicago and New York City's five organized families - the Bonannos, Colombos, Gambinos, Genovese, and Luccheses. They are about 'all that's left,' Mob historian Selwyn Raab says." (2005)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-03-09-mafia-cover_x.htm

Once boasting 26 families nationwide, the mob is down to 11, half of those confined to the New York area. Moreover, the Mafia's influence still extends far beyond New York. There remain active families in Chicago, Detroit, New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia, and Miami. (2006)
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/badguys/060912/the_mafia_a_21stcentury_cosa_n.htm

"They're beleaguered, battered, and bruised but they are far from wiped out. They have been hurt by nearly three decades of prosecutions, mostly by federal authorities. But the five families in New York and those in other metropolitan areas, notably Chicago and its suburbs, remain viable criminal networks. (2006)
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/05/weekinreview/05capeci.html

Today, families in former strongholds like Cleveland, Tampa, and Los Angeles are gone. our thing - as initiates called the mob - is in serious decline everywhere but New York City. (2007)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-25-2782988181_x.htm

"There are 9 La Cosa Nostra families throughout the country; five of them exist in New York." (Michael Franzese, 2009)

Most members of the LCN operate in the New York metropolitan area, but there are also criminal operations in Boston, Chicago, Newark, Detroit, Philadelphia, and Miami. (2010)
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40525.pdf

"While the Mafia - also known as La Cosa Nostra - may no longer possess the robust national presence it once had, it remains a significant threat in the extended New York metropolitan area, New England, Philadelphia, Chicago, and Detroit." (2011)
http://documents.latimes.com/fbis-mafia-family-tree/

Even after imprisonment of senior leadership, it survives, and in some places thrives, though most experts agree that its operations are now largely confined to its traditional bases in the Northeast and Chicago. (2011)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704115404576096392318489246.html


Quoting people with an obvious agenda! Real persuasive.

Thats like asking Cefulu, Vito Rizzuto and the late Sal Montanga what there thoughts are and taking there responses as gospel lol. seriously what's the difference? " So MR Rizzuto, do you think the Government has what it takes to dismantle your organization in the next 10 years or are you savvy enough to persevere?" You really do have a double standard and believe the US government to be infallible don't you ?


Did Raab ask any mobsters their opinion on the matter?

The list you posted is really no different than interviewing members of one of the teams in the 2012 world series and asking them if they think they will win or not and taking the answers as gospel truth.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 02:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Mussolini14


Quoting people with an obvious agenda! Real persuasive.


Give me a friggin' break. Agenda? What agenda? You'll just ignore or explain away any evidence that put in front of your face. And you say you "could care less." Ha. You're the classic example of fanboyism. There's really no other explanation.

Quote:
Thats like asking Cefulu, Vito Rizzuto and the late Sal Montanga what there thoughts are and taking there responses as gospel lol. seriously what's the difference? " So MR Rizzuto, do you think the Government has what it takes to dismantle your organization in the next 10 years or are you savvy enough to persevere?" You really do have a double standard and believe the US government to be infallible don't you ?


Did Raab ask any mobsters their opinion on the matter?

The list you posted is really no different than interviewing members of one of the teams in the 2012 world series and asking them if they think they will win or not and taking the answers as gospel truth.


Hey, man, whatever helps you sleep at night. If you can rest easier believing there's still viable, formally structured families in Buffalo and Kansas City, I won't bother you with facts any longer. whistle
Posted By: Dapper_Don

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 02:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Mussolini14
Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
"The Mafia remains potent in the New York City area, where officials say the mob is hard to uproot because it has five separate and large crime families, and in the suburbs of Chicago. But in most other areas, where prosecutors have to contend with only a single family, the legendary mob that once controlled entire labor unions, city governments, and criminal enterprises has clearly lost its grip." (1990)
http://www.the-laborers.org/lexisnexis/articles/mob_in_decline.htm

"Only New York and Chicago have substantial Mafia organizations." (1997)
http://www.slate.com/id/1054/

The estimated made membership of the LCN is 1100 nationwide, with roughly 80% of the members operating in the New York metropolitan area. There are five crime families that make up the LCN in New York City: the Bonanno, the Colombo, the Genovese, the Gambino, and the Lucchese families. There is also LCN operational activity in Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, and the Miami\South Florida area, but much less so than in New York. In other previous strongholds such as Cleveland, Detroit, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, New Orleans, and Pittsburgh, the LCN is now weak or non-existent. La Cosa Nostra is a high priority for the FBI and for law enforcement in New York City. Elsewhere, however, it is a low priority, with attention being characterized by members as "hit and miss" because of a belief that "things are under control." (1999)
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/218555.pdf

The LCN is most active in the New York metropolitan area, parts of New Jersey, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and New England. It has members in other major cities and is involved in international crimes. (2000)
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/organizedcrime/italian_mafia/?searchterm=lacosanostra

"Only families in New York and Chicago, the largest traditional bases, retained a semblance of organizational frameworks. Elsewhere in the nation, the twenty-odd borgatas were in disarray or practically defunct, except in areas where the New York and Chicago families had branches, especially in Florida. The remaining strength of the Mob was largely concentrated in New York and the Northeast Corridor." (Raab, Five Families - 2005)

"Cosa Nostra, once a nationwide organization of Italian-American mobsters, is down to one outfit in Chicago and New York City's five organized families - the Bonannos, Colombos, Gambinos, Genovese, and Luccheses. They are about 'all that's left,' Mob historian Selwyn Raab says." (2005)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-03-09-mafia-cover_x.htm

Once boasting 26 families nationwide, the mob is down to 11, half of those confined to the New York area. Moreover, the Mafia's influence still extends far beyond New York. There remain active families in Chicago, Detroit, New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia, and Miami. (2006)
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/badguys/060912/the_mafia_a_21stcentury_cosa_n.htm

"They're beleaguered, battered, and bruised but they are far from wiped out. They have been hurt by nearly three decades of prosecutions, mostly by federal authorities. But the five families in New York and those in other metropolitan areas, notably Chicago and its suburbs, remain viable criminal networks. (2006)
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/05/weekinreview/05capeci.html

Today, families in former strongholds like Cleveland, Tampa, and Los Angeles are gone. our thing - as initiates called the mob - is in serious decline everywhere but New York City. (2007)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-25-2782988181_x.htm

"There are 9 La Cosa Nostra families throughout the country; five of them exist in New York." (Michael Franzese, 2009)

Most members of the LCN operate in the New York metropolitan area, but there are also criminal operations in Boston, Chicago, Newark, Detroit, Philadelphia, and Miami. (2010)
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40525.pdf

"While the Mafia - also known as La Cosa Nostra - may no longer possess the robust national presence it once had, it remains a significant threat in the extended New York metropolitan area, New England, Philadelphia, Chicago, and Detroit." (2011)
http://documents.latimes.com/fbis-mafia-family-tree/

Even after imprisonment of senior leadership, it survives, and in some places thrives, though most experts agree that its operations are now largely confined to its traditional bases in the Northeast and Chicago. (2011)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704115404576096392318489246.html


Quoting people with an obvious agenda! Real persuasive.

Thats like asking Cefulu, Vito Rizzuto and the late Sal Montanga what there thoughts are and taking there responses as gospel lol. seriously what's the difference? " So MR Rizzuto, do you think the Government has what it takes to dismantle your organization in the next 10 years or are you savvy enough to persevere?" You really do have a double standard and believe the US government to be infallible don't you ?


Did Raab ask any mobsters their opinion on the matter?

The list you posted is really no different than interviewing members of one of the teams in the 2012 world series and asking them if they think they will win or not and taking the answers as gospel truth.


Sincerely doubt it. If anything, I think the govt would say LCN was active in as many cities as possible to justify continued funding for its various LCN taskforces in each of those places, etc.

Agenda? No

Reality? Yes

Have you spoken to made guys in areas like Buffalo, etc and asked them if they had a viable family, rackets, making ceremonies? Why are you refusing to even acknowledge the overwhelming evidence to the contrary?
Posted By: Five_Felonies

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 02:42 AM


Originally Posted By: Dapper_Don
Sincerely doubt it. If anything, I think the govt would say LCN was active in as many cities as possible to justify continued funding for its various LCN taskforces in each of those places, etc.
this is one of the best arguements that can be made with regards to the viability of certain families.
Posted By: Dapper_Don

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 02:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Five_Felonies

Originally Posted By: Dapper_Don
Sincerely doubt it. If anything, I think the govt would say LCN was active in as many cities as possible to justify continued funding for its various LCN taskforces in each of those places, etc.
this is one of the best arguements that can be made with regards to the viability of certain families.


Thanks, but in all honesty I think it is just common sense. Sometimes you can show a person all the legitimate data/information you have and they still wont believe it. You also see this with many of our politicians.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 04:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Dapper_Don


Sincerely doubt it. If anything, I think the govt would say LCN was active in as many cities as possible to justify continued funding for its various LCN taskforces in each of those places, etc.

Agenda? No

Reality? Yes

Have you spoken to made guys in areas like Buffalo, etc and asked them if they had a viable family, rackets, making ceremonies? Why are you refusing to even acknowledge the overwhelming evidence to the contrary?



Exactly. The FBI has decades of intelligence built up on the LCN. And those cases always make for good press. If there's something to go after in a given city, they likely will. Once the cases start petering off, especially over an extended period of time, that's a good sign the local family is fading out.
Posted By: Mussolini14

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 04:37 AM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: Dapper_Don


Sincerely doubt it. If anything, I think the govt would say LCN was active in as many cities as possible to justify continued funding for its various LCN taskforces in each of those places, etc.

Agenda? No

Reality? Yes

Have you spoken to made guys in areas like Buffalo, etc and asked them if they had a viable family, rackets, making ceremonies? Why are you refusing to even acknowledge the overwhelming evidence to the contrary?



Exactly. The FBI has decades of intelligence built up on the LCN. And those cases always make for good press. If there's something to go after in a given city, they likely will. Once the cases start petering off, especially over an extended period of time, that's a good sign the local family is fading out.


Or we can assume some are starting to wise up and say " hey these street gangs pose a bigger threat to the public than some old men taking bets so lets put the mafia on the back burner and go after the street gangs".

Or are you saying that every FBI member cares about mafia headlines more so than public safety? WHile I do not doubt some do, I find it a stretch to say they all do or even that a majority do.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 04:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Mussolini14


Or we can assume some are starting to wise up and say " hey these street gangs pose a bigger threat to the public than some old men taking bets so lets put the mafia on the back burner and go after the street gangs".

Or are you saying that every FBI member cares about mafia headlines more so than public safety? WHile I do not doubt some do, I find it a stretch to say they all do or even that a majority do.


You're only too happy to make those assumptions because it's what you want to believe.

The Detroit FBI has deemed old Italian guys taking bets to not be a low priority but the FBI offices in Boston, Philly, Chicago, New York, and New Jersey did't get the memo?
Posted By: Mussolini14

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 04:52 AM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: Mussolini14


Or we can assume some are starting to wise up and say " hey these street gangs pose a bigger threat to the public than some old men taking bets so lets put the mafia on the back burner and go after the street gangs".

Or are you saying that every FBI member cares about mafia headlines more so than public safety? WHile I do not doubt some do, I find it a stretch to say they all do or even that a majority do.


You're only too happy to make those assumptions because it's what you want to believe.

The Detroit FBI has deemed old Italian guys taking bets to not be a low priority but the FBI offices in Boston, Philly, Chicago, New York, and New Jersey did't get the memo?


You can keep living in a fantasy world where the good guys always win, that's your prerogative.
I choose to remain neutral.
1 out of 5 is still a fairly high percentage. Your argument would hold water if there were 50 cities who behaved a certain way but when you speak of 5 cities and find it inconceivable that one would go in a different direction than the other 4 you lose credibility IMO.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 04:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Mussolini14

You can keep living in a fantasy world where the good guys always win, that's your prerogative.
I choose to remain neutral.
1 out of 5 is still a fairly high percentage. Your argument would hold water if there were 50 cities who behaved a certain way but when you speak of 5 cities and find it inconceivable that one would go in a different direction than the other 4 you lose credibility IMO.


I'm living in a fantasy world? You're the one who's neutral? lol
Posted By: SC

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 05:00 AM

How about a time out, boys.
Posted By: short841

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 03:48 PM

ivy in ypur opinion how many made guys roughly are in detroit? because if there are above ten there has to be some viability. viable to me sounds like that there is a lcn hierarchy still present then the amount of indictments right?
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 07:59 PM

Originally Posted By: short841
ivy in ypur opinion how many made guys roughly are in detroit? because if there are above ten there has to be some viability. viable to me sounds like that there is a lcn hierarchy still present then the amount of indictments right?


The last official estimate I'm aware of is from the big 1996 bust when there was said to be 29 made members left. People can bring up mcscott's charts and sources but the fact is his charts have changed many times over the years. He's admitted before that he's not always sure who's made and he's often included associates.

Even if one were to assume that they missed identifying some guys back in the 1990's, and others have been made since then, I don't think it's very likely that the total membership in Detroit today could exceed 30 at most, considering others have died over the past 16 years. There's just not enough activity to warrant the belief that there are still 50+ made guys there.

And again, I don't necessarily argue there isn't still a viable family in Detroit. They apparently do have some semblance of a hierarchy and there is some activity. What I disagree with is the assertion that they're as big or as strong as some believe them to be. In my opinion, on the list of remaining "viable" families, Detroit would be at the bottom.
Posted By: short841

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 08:11 PM

I agree with you on activity and that there not really strong has the eastern families but viable to me just sounds like as I said a semblance of a hierarchy. So is that chart got guys who are really associates then?
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 08:20 PM

Originally Posted By: short841
I agree with you on activity and that there not really strong has the eastern families but viable to me just sounds like as I said a semblance of a hierarchy. So is that chart got guys who are really associates then?


Which chart are you referring to? Mcscott has come out with one just about every year since 2006. The guys he has listed in the past who are obviously associates are ones who aren't even Italian. Yet, he would sometimes list them as "soldiers." Not sure why he did that. I'd bet a good chunk of the guys on the charts that show 50+ members are associates and not all made.
Posted By: Five_Felonies

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 08:20 PM

anybody have any info on where the most activity is in detroit? i would think most would be in the surrounding suburbs rather than the city itself. detroit is in the worst shape of any big city in america by far, i cant even think of a close second.
Posted By: m2w

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 08:33 PM

yes i also think most of what is left of the mafia there is in the suburbs the city is among the most violent in the states and thats another reason coz fbi dont focus of mafia anymore there
robberies and street gangs create by far more social alarm than mafia in that city although probably the mafia is the most powerful as a single entity
most of mafiosi are related and they have connections to sicily over there, carini terrasini
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 08:37 PM

Yeah, the family has been mainly in the eastern suburbs for years.
Posted By: Chopper2012

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 08:42 PM

In my opinion, there is a small, viable family at the moment in Detroit, but think about this: Tocco is very, very rich. So are his children, grandchildren etc. Why would you make a lot of new guys, start new crews etc.? You only risk drawing attention from the Feds, new people turning rat and so on. Why take the risk? The family is probably slowly dying out.
Posted By: Dapper_Don

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 08:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Five_Felonies
anybody have any info on where the most activity is in detroit? i would think most would be in the surrounding suburbs rather than the city itself. detroit is in the worst shape of any big city in america by far, i cant even think of a close second.


i would have said newark like 5 years ago.
Posted By: m2w

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 08:59 PM

they don't let the family die, they make new guys especially among their bloods now but if they need they make outside people in the suburbs there are still several italians living
the mafiosi dont think to stop the illegal business even when they are billionare especially if they have relatives involved
Posted By: Dapper_Don

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 09:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Mussolini14
Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: Dapper_Don


Sincerely doubt it. If anything, I think the govt would say LCN was active in as many cities as possible to justify continued funding for its various LCN taskforces in each of those places, etc.

Agenda? No

Reality? Yes

Have you spoken to made guys in areas like Buffalo, etc and asked them if they had a viable family, rackets, making ceremonies? Why are you refusing to even acknowledge the overwhelming evidence to the contrary?



Exactly. The FBI has decades of intelligence built up on the LCN. And those cases always make for good press. If there's something to go after in a given city, they likely will. Once the cases start petering off, especially over an extended period of time, that's a good sign the local family is fading out.


Or we can assume some are starting to wise up and say " hey these street gangs pose a bigger threat to the public than some old men taking bets so lets put the mafia on the back burner and go after the street gangs".

Or are you saying that every FBI member cares about mafia headlines more so than public safety? WHile I do not doubt some do, I find it a stretch to say they all do or even that a majority do.



if that was the case then the ny and philly fbi branches would devote much more resources to combating street crimes with all the gangs in both cities than wasting time putting up an indictment of a family like philly which involved no actual violence but just gambling, etc.
Posted By: Five_Felonies

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 09:04 PM


Originally Posted By: Dapper_Don
i would have said newark like 5 years ago.
newark was and still is a violent city, although things seem to be on an upswing. the thing about detroit is that almost the entire infastructure has crumbled. most big cities have a few bad areas but are pretty safe for the most part(ny). in the actual city of detroit there might be a few decent neighborhoods, but for the most part its hell.

proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6WKMNmFsxM
Posted By: m2w

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 09:05 PM

the level of violence in ny is very low compared to detroit street gangs in ny are not so violent and the mafia activity is huge there even in drug trafficking
Posted By: Dapper_Don

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 10:21 PM

Originally Posted By: m2w
the level of violence in ny is very low compared to detroit street gangs in ny are not so violent and the mafia activity is huge there even in drug trafficking


The level of street gang violence in ny is lower compared to nyc, but the violence is still there. Every day you read about kids getting shot or hit by stray bullets. Selling drugs, prostitution, assaults, or murders you name it it happens in nyc, might not be at the same level ad detroit but it still occurs.
Posted By: Five_Felonies

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 10:25 PM

what areas are still bad areas in nyc? i would say the south bronx, brownville and bed-sty in brooklyn, most of harlem and jamiaca queens but i dont live there so this is just what rap music tells me smile
Posted By: Dapper_Don

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 10:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Five_Felonies

Originally Posted By: Dapper_Don
i would have said newark like 5 years ago.
newark was and still is a violent city, although things seem to be on an upswing. the thing about detroit is that almost the entire infastructure has crumbled. most big cities have a few bad areas but are pretty safe for the most part(ny). in the actual city of detroit there might be a few decent neighborhoods, but for the most part its hell.

proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6WKMNmFsxM


i completely agree
Posted By: Dapper_Don

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/02/12 10:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Five_Felonies
what areas are still bad areas in nyc? i would say the south bronx, brownville and bed-sty brooklyn, parts of harlem and jamiaca queens but i dont live there so this is just what rap music tells me smile


Dont forget East NY - which is widely known as the last major crime bastion in NYC. Guys get shot in FRONT of police stations in broad daylight there, not to mention cops get shot and killed every few months there. Before business school, I worked at an organization that did some community development in East NY. That area isnt a joke to say the least.

I grew up in the south bronx (my parents still live there, dont want to leave the spanish neighborhood), even though currently it is slowly gentrifying especially the area around the stadium cause people who cant afford to buy apts in Manhattan are scooping them up in the south bronx, it is not very safe at night and gang violence is still a common occurrence.

Bed stuy is not even that bad (compared to how it used to be, but i dont recommended hanging out at night), now you see tons hipsters walking/moving into that neighborhood especially during the day and on the subway. Many people are buying up all the brownstones in the area and fixing them up for a nice profit.

side note: one day I was walking past this african american barbershop in East NY, and in the window there was a mannequin with a shit that had a large picture of John Gotti on the front with the headline "no one on the corner had swagger like me". I thought that was an interesting sight.
Posted By: Mussolini14

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/03/12 02:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Dapper_Don
Originally Posted By: Mussolini14
Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: Dapper_Don


Sincerely doubt it. If anything, I think the govt would say LCN was active in as many cities as possible to justify continued funding for its various LCN taskforces in each of those places, etc.

Agenda? No

Reality? Yes

Have you spoken to made guys in areas like Buffalo, etc and asked them if they had a viable family, rackets, making ceremonies? Why are you refusing to even acknowledge the overwhelming evidence to the contrary?



Exactly. The FBI has decades of intelligence built up on the LCN. And those cases always make for good press. If there's something to go after in a given city, they likely will. Once the cases start petering off, especially over an extended period of time, that's a good sign the local family is fading out.


Or we can assume some are starting to wise up and say " hey these street gangs pose a bigger threat to the public than some old men taking bets so lets put the mafia on the back burner and go after the street gangs".

Or are you saying that every FBI member cares about mafia headlines more so than public safety? WHile I do not doubt some do, I find it a stretch to say they all do or even that a majority do.



if that was the case then the ny and philly fbi branches would devote much more resources to combating street crimes with all the gangs in both cities than wasting time putting up an indictment of a family like philly which involved no actual violence but just gambling, etc.


You are assuming that all FBI branch follow the same agenda though.Just because Detroit does something doesn't mean that Phillly and NY would do it and vice verse. Perhaps the senior FBI guys in Philly still deem the mafia to be a bigger threat or care more about the headlines. Doesn't mean the FBI guys in Detroit feel that way. Anyways its all just speculation and I guess we can agree to disagree.
Posted By: Dapper_Don

Re: mafia's drug sales - 05/03/12 03:28 AM

^^^i am not assuming that as evidenced by my previous posts on the different priorities of the ny and detroit fbi offices above. Obcourse any FBI office would want to be in the headlines, headlines=media exposure=more funding=promotions,etc

but we can agree to disagree
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