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How far would Luciano have gotten today?

Posted By: tiger84

How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/15/12 09:34 AM

Ive been doing some research about lucky,Meyer and frank and it seems to me luciano got as far as he did because Maranzano and masseria were retarted.They were so old school that they never would think that someone would betray the boss.In today the good bosses like chin would never associate with guys that young and would never have given them the offers that those 2 gave luciano.Notice how something like this has never happend to any boss todays guys r smarter its just that LE is also much smarter
Posted By: NickyScarfo

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/15/12 10:21 AM

Yeah I thin this too, all those old guys like Gambino, Luciano etc would get sent to prison for life just like the rest today.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/15/12 11:34 AM

Originally Posted By: tiger84
Ive been doing some research about lucky,Meyer and frank and it seems to me luciano got as far as he did because Maranzano and masseria were retarted.


I wouln´t call either Masseria nor Maranzano retarded. Masseria was cunning and shrewd as the rest of the bosses.
Maranzano was an educated man, studied to become a priest and spoke several languages, including Latin.
Maranzano was certainly a man with principles and values. That is why he clashed with the younger breed of gangsters, represented by Luciano, who didn´t value the old tradition that much.
An interesting description of Maranzano regarding his voice was made by Bonanno in his book "A Man of Honor":
"His voice...ah, his voice. What an important aspect of a man, his voice. We remember voices, it seems to me, more than we do faces. Sound seems to be more ancient than sight.
He had a sweet voice, not at all buff or grasso profundo. His voice had an entrancing echolike quality. When Maranzano used his voice assertively, to give a command, he was the bellknocker and you were the bell."

Just to remind you Tiger, Lucky Luciano (regardless of if he was framed or not) was sentenced to 30-50 years imprisonment for extorting prostitutes and this after a five year reign as boss. The question remains. How long would he have lasted today?
Posted By: Scorsese

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/15/12 11:50 AM

Is there any truth to him being framed or is it just some sort of famboyism by certain people trying to make it seem that a mob boss would not be involved with prostitution.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/15/12 12:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Scorsese
Is there any truth to him being framed or is it just some sort of famboyism by certain people trying to make it seem that a mob boss would not be involved with prostitution.



Prostitution was/is a big no-no in the mob. In order to become made, the proposed member was carefully checked if he had had any dealings in this racket. If this was the case, the proposed member was not allowed in. I think Bonanno stated that if somebody had been pinping out women in the past, he could never be a man of honor.
I doubt very much that Lucky Luciano was a pimp while in the Mafia.
In my opinion, the prosecutor Thomas Dewey had a hard on for putting Luciano behind bars. Fight against crime was often a ticket to a higher office. (Maybe it still is.)

After Luciano´s incarceration, several witnesses stated that they had testified falsely at his trial. The prostitute Cookie Flo claimed that she made up things because of her heroin addiction and just wanted to get out of there as quick as possible.
Speculations arose that Dewey was out to get Luciano at any price (even by squeezing and manipulating the prostitutes) and if I´m not mistaken, Dewey was forced to give his own testimony later on, in order to prove that this was not the case.

The other defendents who also was charged (Ligouri, Betillo, Tommy Bull and other footsoldires) used Luciano´s name in order to intimdate the victims. But was Luciano aware of this?
Another question is why did Cookie Flo reveal her false testimony after the trial?
Perhaps she eventually realized, after being squeezed by Dewey, what a dangerous position she was in, and decided to try to buy herself a ticket out.
Posted By: CleveItalia

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/15/12 01:32 PM

What I find interesting is how even back in the 30's and 40's the "new breed" didn't adhere to the old school principles. If they knew how bad it has gotten currently, they wouldn't even recognize OC today.
Posted By: Scorsese

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/15/12 04:26 PM

I dont think that prostitution was banned. Its one of the biggest markets still to this day. The Outfits original boss were heavily involved in brothels and white slavery. Luciano was one of the biggest drug dealers in the country at the time, i doubt it was beneath him to make money off of prostitution.

I think luciano in this day and age would try and put mob back in to the status it had during his time and the control they once had over everything including drugs, but i think he would fail either by going to prison or getting murdered.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/15/12 04:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Scorsese
I dont think that prostitution was banned. Its one of the biggest markets still to this day. The Outfits original boss were heavily involved in brothels and white slavery. Luciano was one of the biggest drug dealers in the country at the time, i doubt it was beneath him to make money off of prostitution.

I think luciano in this day and age would try and put mob back in to the status it had during his time and the control they once had over everything including drugs, but i think he would fail either by going to prison or getting murdered.


Yes. But keep in mind that Colosimo was not part of the Mafia, which back then was a purely Sicilian thing. Colosimo was Neopolitan. The Camorra gangs at that time had other rules and values. It was the Camorra gang who dealt with prostitution and drug dealing.
Luciano, allthough being a Sicilian, was never steeped in Mafia tradition. He was basically a street guy who grew up with the values found on the street. That is why Bonanno referred to himas an "Americanized" mafioso. These "americanized" mafiosi only valued money.
Bonanno stated that he had a great friendship with Luciano. But their "political" views and values was very far apart.
But he also stated that he doubted that Luciano was involved with prostitution.
Posted By: Scorsese

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/15/12 04:58 PM

bonnano was involved in heroin trafficking aswell. His family was one of the most involved with drugs. I wouldnt really take his word on anything. You might be right about the prostitution but i just find it hard to believe that a group of murderous gangsters would shun one of the oldest and most lucrative criminal activities because a few of them felt it violated their so called principles.
http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/how-the-sicilian-mafia-flooded
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/15/12 05:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Scorsese
bonnano was involved in heroin trafficking aswell. His family was one of the most involved with drugs. I wouldnt really take his word on anything. You might be right about the prostitution but i just find it hard to believe that a group of murderous gangsters would shun one of the oldest and most lucrative criminal activities because a few of them felt it violated their so called principles.
http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/how-the-sicilian-mafia-flooded


The Bonanno Family was involved with drugs, Lilo Galante and his crew, Joe Evola and a few others were charged and sentenced for drug trafficking. Bonanno wasn´t able to (allthough being the boss) stop his men from dealing. If you read Bonanno and his son´s book you will see that Bonanno was fiercely against drug trafficking in his Family.
Most of the known mafiamembers who got prosecuted and sentenced for drug dealing back in the 1950s and 1960s (I´d say 90 percent of them) belonged to or was affiliated with the Lucchese, Genovese and Gambino Families. This comes through in the Federal Bureau of Narcotics book that was realeased a couple of years ago. The book is stuffed with known drugtraffickers from these three Mafia Families.
The Bonannos did not dominate the drug trade until later, in the 1970s.

Correction - Let me refrase that. What I meant to say was 90 percent of the guys listed in the New York section of the FBN book.
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/15/12 05:47 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Most of the known mafiamembers who got prosecuted and sentenced for drug dealing back in the 1950s and 1960s (I´d say 90 percent of them) belonged to or was affiliated with the Lucchese, Genovese and Gambino Families. This comes through in the Federal Bureau of Narcotics book that was realeased a couple of years ago. The book is stuffed with known drugtraffickers from these three Mafia Families.

Could you tell me the title of the book? I would be interested in reading it.
Posted By: Scorsese

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/15/12 05:51 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Originally Posted By: Scorsese
bonnano was involved in heroin trafficking aswell. His family was one of the most involved with drugs. I wouldnt really take his word on anything. You might be right about the prostitution but i just find it hard to believe that a group of murderous gangsters would shun one of the oldest and most lucrative criminal activities because a few of them felt it violated their so called principles.
http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/how-the-sicilian-mafia-flooded


The Bonanno Family was involved with drugs, Lilo Galante and his crew, Joe Evola and a few others were charged and sentenced for drug trafficking. Bonanno wasn´t able to (allthough being the boss) stop his men from dealing. If you read Bonanno and his son´s book you will see that Bonanno was fiercely against drug trafficking in his Family.
Most of the known mafiamembers who got prosecuted and sentenced for drug dealing back in the 1950s and 1960s (I´d say 90 percent of them) belonged to or was affiliated with the Lucchese, Genovese and Gambino Families. This comes through in the Federal Bureau of Narcotics book that was realeased a couple of years ago. The book is stuffed with known drugtraffickers from these three Mafia Families.
The Bonannos did not dominate the drug trade until later, in the 1970s.


Id have to take anything he says in a book about himself at face value. To me though drugs were just a natural progression from prohibition. You cant ignore the profits if your in a crime group that big its just unrealistic.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/15/12 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Dwalin2011
Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Most of the known mafiamembers who got prosecuted and sentenced for drug dealing back in the 1950s and 1960s (I´d say 90 percent of them) belonged to or was affiliated with the Lucchese, Genovese and Gambino Families. This comes through in the Federal Bureau of Narcotics book that was realeased a couple of years ago. The book is stuffed with known drugtraffickers from these three Mafia Families.

Could you tell me the title of the book? I would be interested in reading it.


It´s basically a compilation of known mafia members and associates who were involved with drug trafficking. It´s hell of a interesting book. All entrys are shown with a mugshot and infos with birth of date, description, family background, criminal associates, modus operandi etc...
I´m impressed by the FBNs intelligence work regarding all the data they managed to collect.

http://www.amazon.com/Mafia-Governments-Secret-Organized-Crime/dp/0061363855
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/15/12 09:41 PM

As far as in a maximun security prison.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 12:26 AM

Sure are a lot of hypothetical threads on this board.
Posted By: phatmatress

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 03:32 AM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Sure are a lot of hypothetical threads on this board.
yes they annoy the crap outta me....
Posted By: carmela

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 03:38 AM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Sure are a lot of hypothetical threads on this board.


Wiseguy, you know you're still my favorite mormon EVER, and I'm sure in another life, I could've been your #1 and FIRST wife...but... if people don't hypothesize over mob stuff, what else is there, unless new news emerges? The same recycled, regurgitated bullshit? Don't you guys get bored to tears with all that? In the interim of waiting for anything new, it seems all there is to do is to make theories and hypothesize. Just sayen (rip frosty).
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 03:42 AM

Originally Posted By: carmela
Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Sure are a lot of hypothetical threads on this board.


Wiseguy, you know you're still my favorite mormon EVER, and I'm sure in another life, I could've been your #1 and FIRST wife...but... if people don't hypothesize over mob stuff, what else is there, unless new news emerges? The same recycled, regurgitated bullshit? Don't you guys get bored to tears with all that? In the interim of waiting for anything new, it seems all there is to do is to make theories and hypothesize. Just sayen (rip frosty).



I see what you're saying.
Posted By: Five_Felonies

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 04:01 AM

what happened to frosty?
Posted By: phatmatress

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 04:21 AM

Originally Posted By: carmela
Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Sure are a lot of hypothetical threads on this board.


Wiseguy, you know you're still my favorite mormon EVER, and I'm sure in another life, I could've been your #1 and FIRST wife...but... if people don't hypothesize over mob stuff, what else is there, unless new news emerges? The same recycled, regurgitated bullshit? Don't you guys get bored to tears with all that? In the interim of waiting for anything new, it seems all there is to do is to make theories and hypothesize. Just sayen (rip frosty).

well you could still be my first wife hell i would even settle for you to be my mid wife lol..... smile smile but i just think there are better things to talk about
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 04:24 AM

What would have happened if Luciano failed to floss daily? Or even more importantly, how far could he have gone if they had central air conditioning back in the day?
Posted By: carmela

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 04:30 AM

Originally Posted By: phatmatress
Originally Posted By: carmela
Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Sure are a lot of hypothetical threads on this board.


Wiseguy, you know you're still my favorite mormon EVER, and I'm sure in another life, I could've been your #1 and FIRST wife...but... if people don't hypothesize over mob stuff, what else is there, unless new news emerges? The same recycled, regurgitated bullshit? Don't you guys get bored to tears with all that? In the interim of waiting for anything new, it seems all there is to do is to make theories and hypothesize. Just sayen (rip frosty).

well you could still be my first wife hell i would even settle for you to be my mid wife lol..... smile smile but i just think there are better things to talk about


I do! BUT, I'll have to see the ring first!

Yeah, I know, there's always something better to talk about. You know me..always bitching and complaining about something. wink
Posted By: phatmatress

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 05:33 AM

Originally Posted By: carmela
Originally Posted By: phatmatress
Originally Posted By: carmela
Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Sure are a lot of hypothetical threads on this board.


Wiseguy, you know you're still my favorite mormon EVER, and I'm sure in another life, I could've been your #1 and FIRST wife...but... if people don't hypothesize over mob stuff, what else is there, unless new news emerges? The same recycled, regurgitated bullshit? Don't you guys get bored to tears with all that? In the interim of waiting for anything new, it seems all there is to do is to make theories and hypothesize. Just sayen (rip frosty).

well you could still be my first wife hell i would even settle for you to be my mid wife lol..... smile smile but i just think there are better things to talk about


I do! BUT, I'll have to see the ring first!

Yeah, I know, there's always something better to talk about. You know me..always bitching and complaining about something. wink
well you have every right too smile
Posted By: Mussolini14

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 10:51 AM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Originally Posted By: Scorsese
bonnano was involved in heroin trafficking aswell. His family was one of the most involved with drugs. I wouldnt really take his word on anything. You might be right about the prostitution but i just find it hard to believe that a group of murderous gangsters would shun one of the oldest and most lucrative criminal activities because a few of them felt it violated their so called principles.
http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/how-the-sicilian-mafia-flooded


The Bonanno Family was involved with drugs, Lilo Galante and his crew, Joe Evola and a few others were charged and sentenced for drug trafficking. Bonanno wasn´t able to (allthough being the boss) stop his men from dealing. If you read Bonanno and his son´s book you will see that Bonanno was fiercely against drug trafficking in his Family.
Most of the known mafiamembers who got prosecuted and sentenced for drug dealing back in the 1950s and 1960s (I´d say 90 percent of them) belonged to or was affiliated with the Lucchese, Genovese and Gambino Families. This comes through in the Federal Bureau of Narcotics book that was realeased a couple of years ago. The book is stuffed with known drugtraffickers from these three Mafia Families.
The Bonannos did not dominate the drug trade until later, in the 1970s.

Correction - Let me refrase that. What I meant to say was 90 percent of the guys listed in the New York section of the FBN book.


Actually it is common knowledge Joe and his son Bill were neck deep in the drug trade and that 90% of his book is fiction. Do a few searches over at the Realdeal forum and you might have a different opinion. You really think he had know idea his underboss was one of the biggest drug dealers in the country? I suppose to that when Carmine Galante went to Palermo Sicily in 1957 to establish a heroin pipeline to NY, Bonnano went with him just to go sight seeing and had no idea Galante was meeting with heroin dealers at their hotel?
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 11:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Mussolini14


Actually it is common knowledge Joe and his son Bill were neck deep in the drug trade and that 90% of his book is fiction. Do a few searches over at the Realdeal forum and you might have a different opinion. You really think he had know idea his underboss was one of the biggest drug dealers in the country? I suppose to that when Carmine Galante went to Palermo Sicily in 1957 to establish a heroin pipeline to NY, Bonnano went with him just to go sight seeing and had no idea Galante was meeting with heroin dealers at their hotel?


Common knowledge? Please tell me where that common knowledge originates from. From guys posting on Real Deal? Ask their sources and they´ll probably say "well...it´s all over internet!"
Lilo Galante and his crew (Galante was a captain, not Bonanno´s underboss) was heavily involved with drug trafficking. I am not denying that. But if you read Bonanno and do a little research yourself, you will find that the Gambinos, Luccheses and Genoveses had a lot more people involved with drugtrafficking.
Their bosses allowed their men into that field, Bonanno did not.
Neither did Profaci.
It wasn´t until 1963 that Carlo Gambino banned drugtrafficking in his Family. This you can find in FBI documents, on the Mary Farrell Foundation site.
Another way to do a little research (actually it is a major project, but anyway...), take a look in the FBN book. And this is why I mentioned it in an earlier post in this thread. You will see the gros majority of the New York Mafia members and associates, who dealt with narcotics, where part of the Gambino, Lucchese and Genovese Families. Only a handful men, out of 800 listed in that book, was with the Bonannos and Profacis.

As to your statement of 90 percent of Bonanno´s book being fiction...I wonder where did you get that number from?
Nobody, up to date, has been able to prove Bonanno being a liar. So your 90 percent seems a way, way off.

It´s always better to do research by checking sources before believing what everybody can write on the internet.
Posted By: phatmatress

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 02:31 PM

Joe Bannana's painted himself out to be something he wasn't in that book.......
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 04:23 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles


Common knowledge? Please tell me where that common knowledge originates from. From guys posting on Real Deal? Ask their sources and they´ll probably say "well...it´s all over internet!"
Lilo Galante and his crew (Galante was a captain, not Bonanno´s underboss) was heavily involved with drug trafficking. I am not denying that. But if you read Bonanno and do a little research yourself, you will find that the Gambinos, Luccheses and Genoveses had a lot more people involved with drugtrafficking.
Their bosses allowed their men into that field, Bonanno did not.
Neither did Profaci.
It wasn´t until 1963 that Carlo Gambino banned drugtrafficking in his Family. This you can find in FBI documents, on the Mary Farrell Foundation site.
Another way to do a little research (actually it is a major project, but anyway...), take a look in the FBN book. And this is why I mentioned it in an earlier post in this thread. You will see the gros majority of the New York Mafia members and associates, who dealt with narcotics, where part of the Gambino, Lucchese and Genovese Families. Only a handful men, out of 800 listed in that book, was with the Bonannos and Profacis.

As to your statement of 90 percent of Bonanno´s book being fiction...I wonder where did you get that number from?
Nobody, up to date, has been able to prove Bonanno being a liar. So your 90 percent seems a way, way off.

It´s always better to do research by checking sources before believing what everybody can write on the internet.


The issue isn't whether the Bonannos had more or less involvement in the drug trade than the other NY families, it's whether Bonanno was involved in it; at least as far as allowing it as boss. Is anyone going to believe that Bonanno did not know and allow Galante's drug trafficking?

That said, some interesting stats I read from 1957 -

3 in 5 (60%) Lucchese members had been arrested for narcotics.

1 in 2 (50%) Genovese members had been arrested for narcotics.

1 in 3 (33%) Bonanno and Colombo members had been arrested for narcotics.

1 in 5 (20%) Gambino members had been arrested for narcotics.


Of course, these relative family percentages looked different 20 years later.
Posted By: Scorsese

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 04:49 PM

The luccheses were heavily involved with distributing that french connection heroin. And then after that you had the pizza connection which i think was mostly a bonanno backed operation and the gambinos aswell even more so after the first round of arrests against the zips. I think that every family went through periods of time where they were the dominant drug traffickers amongst the five families except for perhaps the columbos.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 05:45 PM

Interesting stats, Ivy.
Please name the source and I will try to check it out.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 06:40 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Interesting stats, Ivy.
Please name the source and I will try to check it out.


I don't have a link or anything. It was something in my files and I had posted them over on the RD forum back in 2007 (link below). If I remember right, it was from the Federal Bureau of Narcotics.

http://realdeal-forum.com/forum/viewtopi...nanno+narcotics
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 06:51 PM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Interesting stats, Ivy.
Please name the source and I will try to check it out.


I don't have a link or anything. It was something in my files and I had posted them over on the RD forum back in 2007 (link below). If I remember right, it was from the Federal Bureau of Narcotics.

http://realdeal-forum.com/forum/viewtopi...nanno+narcotics


I understand. I have the same problem. Stuff in my files I`ve collected and saved years ago but can´t remember from where I got them. Frustrating... mad
Posted By: Scorsese

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 07:32 PM

if bonanno didnt know galante was dealing drugs, he wasnt much of a don.

one question who would you guys say was most active in the cocaine trade out of the five families during the 80s?
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 08:58 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Their bosses allowed their men into that field, Bonanno did not.


He did allow Galante and the Montreal decina to be heavily involved though... And Gambino was actually the one who enforced the rule "deal and die" on his men. He used his Cherry Hill Gambinos zips to deal in drugs.
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 09:17 PM

Since we are talking about bosses dealing or not dealing in drugs, I would like to ask: what do you think about Vito Genovese’s conviction for drug dealing? Do you think he did really make that particular deal or was it a frame-up? I have read the main witness was paid by Luciano, Gambino and Costello to testify about things he had never seen, but do you think that deal really did take place even though the informant wasn’t present or was it completely made up?
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/16/12 09:21 PM

That's a good question. I don't know the answer myself but I'm sure others will.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/17/12 01:18 AM

To get back to the original question:

I believe Luciano would have been a big success today. He had lots of personal force, and the leadership qualities that enabled him to assert himself and his ideas among other powerful men by making them see what was in it for them to accept his leadership.

His background tells me he'd succeed even now: he was born in Sicily but was a thoroughly American businessman, enlisting the help of non-Sicilians and even non-Italians if he thought they could contribute. He created the Commission but wisely did not appoint himself capo di tutti capi because he didn't have to--everyone knew who he was. Instead he appointed Al Capone as "chairman" (a non-Sicilian and non-Mafioso) because he wanted to bring the Chicago Outfit into the new organization.. And he named Joe Bonanno "secretary" because Bonanno was a skeptic about new directions and needed to be stroked.

A negative: he had a fairly high public profile by Mob standards, although nothing like Gotti and Columbo. Some writers think the prostitution rap was a put-up job; Dewey allegedly wanted to get him for narcotics (which he was always involved in) but didn't have the evidence yet. Today narcotics would be even more dangerous.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/17/12 01:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Scorsese

one question who would you guys say was most active in the cocaine trade out of the five families during the 80s?


I don't really know but, if I had to guess, I would say the Gambinos.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/17/12 09:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
To get back to the original question:

I believe Luciano would have been a big success today. He had lots of personal force, and the leadership qualities that enabled him to assert himself and his ideas among other powerful men by making them see what was in it for them to accept his leadership.

His background tells me he'd succeed even now: he was born in Sicily but was a thoroughly American businessman, enlisting the help of non-Sicilians and even non-Italians if he thought they could contribute. He created the Commission but wisely did not appoint himself capo di tutti capi because he didn't have to--everyone knew who he was. Instead he appointed Al Capone as "chairman" (a non-Sicilian and non-Mafioso) because he wanted to bring the Chicago Outfit into the new organization.. And he named Joe Bonanno "secretary" because Bonanno was a skeptic about new directions and needed to be stroked.

A negative: he had a fairly high public profile by Mob standards, although nothing like Gotti and Columbo. Some writers think the prostitution rap was a put-up job; Dewey allegedly wanted to get him for narcotics (which he was always involved in) but didn't have the evidence yet. Today narcotics would be even more dangerous.


The idea of a ruling body such as the Commission circulated anong the bosses already after the killing of Masseria. But the boss of bosses, Salvatore Maranzano naturally rejected this.
This is mentioned by Nicolo Gentile, the mafioso who in the 1960s wrote his memoirs which later turned into the book "Vita di capomafia".
After Maranzano´s death, the leaders of the two warring factions in the Castellammarese war, Lucky Luciano and Joe Bonanno together materialized the idea of a ruling body, a ruling council. Bonanno suggested it to be called Commissione del pace. But because Luciano pronounced it incorrectly, they named it the Commission.
Bonanno writes in his book that because of his age, Vincent Mangano actually was selected by the Commission members as the chairman and Joseph Profaci was selected "secretary".

Turnbull, I hope I don´t get banned for writing this post. smile
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/17/12 04:24 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Turnbull, I hope I don´t get banned for writing this post. smile

You'll never get banned for an intelligent, well written rebuttal, Hairy. It's called "agreeing to disagree." And you've proven yourself to be a gentleman here smile.

But I do think that you put too much stock into Bonanno's book. Who's to say who was telling the truth? For all we know, Bonanno was completely forthright in his memoir. But I personally don't believe a lot of it.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/17/12 05:25 PM

Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Turnbull, I hope I don´t get banned for writing this post. smile

You'll never get banned for an intelligent, well written rebuttal, Hairy. It's called "agreeing to disagree." And you've proven yourself to be a gentleman here smile.

But I do think that you put too much stock into Bonanno's book. Who's to say who was telling the truth? For all we know, Bonanno was completely forthright in his memoir. But I personally don't believe a lot of it.


Thanks for the kind words, Pizzaboy. I'll try to tone down my enthusiasm for the Bonanno book. A little bit anyway.
I enjoy reading all your posts. They are written with great insight, great knowledge and with a great sense of humor I really enjoy. And I think that most people in here agrees.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/17/12 05:29 PM

Aw, shucks blush lol.
Posted By: LCN1987

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/17/12 09:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
To get back to the original question:

I believe Luciano would have been a big success today. He had lots of personal force, and the leadership qualities that enabled him to assert himself and his ideas among other powerful men by making them see what was in it for them to accept his leadership.

His background tells me he'd succeed even now: he was born in Sicily but was a thoroughly American businessman, enlisting the help of non-Sicilians and even non-Italians if he thought they could contribute. He created the Commission but wisely did not appoint himself capo di tutti capi because he didn't have to--everyone knew who he was. Instead he appointed Al Capone as "chairman" (a non-Sicilian and non-Mafioso) because he wanted to bring the Chicago Outfit into the new organization.. And he named Joe Bonanno "secretary" because Bonanno was a skeptic about new directions and needed to be stroked.

A negative: he had a fairly high public profile by Mob standards, although nothing like Gotti and Columbo. Some writers think the prostitution rap was a put-up job; Dewey allegedly wanted to get him for narcotics (which he was always involved in) but didn't have the evidence yet. Today narcotics would be even more dangerous.

Agreed 100%. Having read "The Last Testament" I have to say that my interpretation of Lucky is that of a VERY smart, business-minded individual who didn't care about race, and saw the benefits of that. He had all the qualities a great boss needs, and he was unlike Gotti, respected by all the other families. He'd have gotten VERY far, but there's a different climate today, and the feds are on their toes and you can't buy cops, so who knows.
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/17/12 09:22 PM

Originally Posted By: LCN1987

and you can't buy cops

Are you sure?
Posted By: LCN1987

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/17/12 09:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Dwalin2011
Originally Posted By: LCN1987

and you can't buy cops

Are you sure?

Well, what I meant was that you can't buy off cops like you could back in the day.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/17/12 10:00 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
To get back to the original question:

I believe Luciano would have been a big success today. He had lots of personal force, and the leadership qualities that enabled him to assert himself and his ideas among other powerful men by making them see what was in it for them to accept his leadership.

His background tells me he'd succeed even now: he was born in Sicily but was a thoroughly American businessman, enlisting the help of non-Sicilians and even non-Italians if he thought they could contribute. He created the Commission but wisely did not appoint himself capo di tutti capi because he didn't have to--everyone knew who he was. Instead he appointed Al Capone as "chairman" (a non-Sicilian and non-Mafioso) because he wanted to bring the Chicago Outfit into the new organization.. And he named Joe Bonanno "secretary" because Bonanno was a skeptic about new directions and needed to be stroked.

A negative: he had a fairly high public profile by Mob standards, although nothing like Gotti and Columbo. Some writers think the prostitution rap was a put-up job; Dewey allegedly wanted to get him for narcotics (which he was always involved in) but didn't have the evidence yet. Today narcotics would be even more dangerous.


The idea of a ruling body such as the Commission circulated anong the bosses already after the killing of Masseria. But the boss of bosses, Salvatore Maranzano naturally rejected this.
This is mentioned by Nicolo Gentile, the mafioso who in the 1960s wrote his memoirs which later turned into the book "Vita di capomafia".
After Maranzano´s death, the leaders of the two warring factions in the Castellammarese war, Lucky Luciano and Joe Bonanno together materialized the idea of a ruling body, a ruling council. Bonanno suggested it to be called Commissione del pace. But because Luciano pronounced it incorrectly, they named it the Commission.
Bonanno writes in his book that because of his age, Vincent Mangano actually was selected by the Commission members as the chairman and Joseph Profaci was selected "secretary".

Turnbull, I hope I don´t get banned for writing this post. smile


A very valuable and intelligent post, Hairy! smile There are always differing interpretations and accounts because Mob history is so imprecise. Mobsters aren't the types to leave their collected letters and papers to universities for people like us to peruse.

Bonanno's "A Man of Honor" (sic) is a great read, but like PB, I'm skeptical. All autobiographies are self-serving, and Bonanno had more reason than most to serve himself--such as denying that he was involved with drugs. tongue
Posted By: LCN1987

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/17/12 10:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
To get back to the original question:

I believe Luciano would have been a big success today. He had lots of personal force, and the leadership qualities that enabled him to assert himself and his ideas among other powerful men by making them see what was in it for them to accept his leadership.

His background tells me he'd succeed even now: he was born in Sicily but was a thoroughly American businessman, enlisting the help of non-Sicilians and even non-Italians if he thought they could contribute. He created the Commission but wisely did not appoint himself capo di tutti capi because he didn't have to--everyone knew who he was. Instead he appointed Al Capone as "chairman" (a non-Sicilian and non-Mafioso) because he wanted to bring the Chicago Outfit into the new organization.. And he named Joe Bonanno "secretary" because Bonanno was a skeptic about new directions and needed to be stroked.

A negative: he had a fairly high public profile by Mob standards, although nothing like Gotti and Columbo. Some writers think the prostitution rap was a put-up job; Dewey allegedly wanted to get him for narcotics (which he was always involved in) but didn't have the evidence yet. Today narcotics would be even more dangerous.


The idea of a ruling body such as the Commission circulated anong the bosses already after the killing of Masseria. But the boss of bosses, Salvatore Maranzano naturally rejected this.
This is mentioned by Nicolo Gentile, the mafioso who in the 1960s wrote his memoirs which later turned into the book "Vita di capomafia".
After Maranzano´s death, the leaders of the two warring factions in the Castellammarese war, Lucky Luciano and Joe Bonanno together materialized the idea of a ruling body, a ruling council. Bonanno suggested it to be called Commissione del pace. But because Luciano pronounced it incorrectly, they named it the Commission.
Bonanno writes in his book that because of his age, Vincent Mangano actually was selected by the Commission members as the chairman and Joseph Profaci was selected "secretary".

Turnbull, I hope I don´t get banned for writing this post. smile


A very valuable and intelligent post, Hairy! smile There are always differing interpretations and accounts because Mob history is so imprecise. Mobsters aren't the types to leave their collected letters and papers to universities for people like us to peruse.

Bonanno's "A Man of Honor" (sic) is a great read, but like PB, I'm skeptical. All autobiographies are self-serving, and Bonanno had more reason than most to serve himself--such as denying that he was involved with drugs. tongue

Does he mention Lucky a lot in that book? Haven't read that one, yet. Just started on "Murder Machine".
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/17/12 11:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull


A very valuable and intelligent post, Hairy! smile There are always differing interpretations and accounts because Mob history is so imprecise. Mobsters aren't the types to leave their collected letters and papers to universities for people like us to peruse.

Bonanno's "A Man of Honor" (sic) is a great read, but like PB, I'm skeptical. All autobiographies are self-serving, and Bonanno had more reason than most to serve himself--such as denying that he was involved with drugs. tongue


Thank you Turnbull.
In no way am I here to try to convince people to belive Bonanno.
We all have different preferences when it comes to books about the Mafia. We don´t know what is the truth and what is not. We weren´t there. We might wish, but we weren´t there.
What we can do is to compare facts, sources and hopefully draw our own conclusions. Internet is a great media to use. But we also have to be aware of the false information (deliberate or not) that is out there. When an Internet writer doing an article and show his or her proper sources anybody can check them out. But sadly to say, a great majority of them don´t.

Now, with that said I would like to comment an earlier post, in this thread, by LCN (I think it was) referring to "The Last Testament of Lucky Luciano". The book has been rejected by most crime historians and mafia experts I came across. They all point to crucial fact errors made by Hammer and Gosch when writing the book which suggests that the story did not come from Luciano himself but rather from newspaper clippings of dubious qualities.
For example, Alan May from Rick Porello´s AmericanMafia.com made an excellent report about the subject. Here´s a qoute from it:

"Witout giving a time frame, but it must be assumed it´s 1923 or earlier, Luciano says that Maranzano wants to have a meeting. During their talk he claims Maranzano asks him to join his organization. Luciano sends his driver to deliver a message: "to thank Don Salvatore for his very nice offer and just to say that this wasn´t the right time and we should sorta leave the door open.

The next ancounter between Luciano and Maranzano came on the night of september 14, 1923 during the Dempsey/Firpo heavyweight championship at the Polo grounds.
Luciano boasts that he spent 25,000 dollars to purchase choice seats to impress his gangsterfriends and politicians from New York and around the country. He claims Boss Jim Pendergast came all the way from Kansas City in a private railroad car.

- It must have been a funeral car because Jim Pendergast died in 1910.

Luciano says right before the main bout Maranzano walked over and they greeted eachother cordially, like equals, and chatted for a few minutes. At this time Maranzano asks for another meeting. When the two men met......Maranzano makes an offer to Luciano: Charles Lucania would become chief lieutenant in the Maranzano family, and Maranzano would turn over to him the family´s entire liqour territory.....

Luciano claims that he discussed the offer with his inner circle and then sent a polite message to Maranzano declining the offer. He claimed this rejection of the second Maranzano offer without any serious consequences spread quickly through the underworld and won Luciano increased respect from his elders and peers. One of the people he supposedly won the respect of was Johnny Scalise, one of the bootleg powers in Cleveland.

- We can only assume he is referring to John Scalish, who was the recognized leader of the Cleveland Mafia from 1944 to 1976. Luciano refers to Scalise a couple of times. However, in 1923 John Scalish was only eleven years old."

End of qoute.

In addition to obvious errors mentioned by Allan May, I would like to chip in by saying that Maranzano most probably was not in US prior to 1923. His immigration entry to the US shows 1925. And he certainly was not the leader of the Castellammarese at that time. So no "Maranzano family"
could have existed. Therfore, he could not have offered Luciano a lieutenant position in any family.

In my opinion, the book is fake.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/17/12 11:10 PM

Originally Posted By: LCN1987
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
To get back to the original question:

I believe Luciano would have been a big success today. He had lots of personal force, and the leadership qualities that enabled him to assert himself and his ideas among other powerful men by making them see what was in it for them to accept his leadership.

His background tells me he'd succeed even now: he was born in Sicily but was a thoroughly American businessman, enlisting the help of non-Sicilians and even non-Italians if he thought they could contribute. He created the Commission but wisely did not appoint himself capo di tutti capi because he didn't have to--everyone knew who he was. Instead he appointed Al Capone as "chairman" (a non-Sicilian and non-Mafioso) because he wanted to bring the Chicago Outfit into the new organization.. And he named Joe Bonanno "secretary" because Bonanno was a skeptic about new directions and needed to be stroked.

A negative: he had a fairly high public profile by Mob standards, although nothing like Gotti and Columbo. Some writers think the prostitution rap was a put-up job; Dewey allegedly wanted to get him for narcotics (which he was always involved in) but didn't have the evidence yet. Today narcotics would be even more dangerous.


The idea of a ruling body such as the Commission circulated anong the bosses already after the killing of Masseria. But the boss of bosses, Salvatore Maranzano naturally rejected this.
This is mentioned by Nicolo Gentile, the mafioso who in the 1960s wrote his memoirs which later turned into the book "Vita di capomafia".
After Maranzano´s death, the leaders of the two warring factions in the Castellammarese war, Lucky Luciano and Joe Bonanno together materialized the idea of a ruling body, a ruling council. Bonanno suggested it to be called Commissione del pace. But because Luciano pronounced it incorrectly, they named it the Commission.
Bonanno writes in his book that because of his age, Vincent Mangano actually was selected by the Commission members as the chairman and Joseph Profaci was selected "secretary".

Turnbull, I hope I don´t get banned for writing this post. smile


A very valuable and intelligent post, Hairy! smile There are always differing interpretations and accounts because Mob history is so imprecise. Mobsters aren't the types to leave their collected letters and papers to universities for people like us to peruse.

Bonanno's "A Man of Honor" (sic) is a great read, but like PB, I'm skeptical. All autobiographies are self-serving, and Bonanno had more reason than most to serve himself--such as denying that he was involved with drugs. tongue

Does he mention Lucky a lot in that book? Haven't read that one, yet. Just started on "Murder Machine".


Yes. Bonanno mentions Luciano several times in the book.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/18/12 02:30 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
His immigration entry to the US shows 1925.


Could you provide us with that immigration entry? I would like to see it.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/18/12 04:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
His immigration entry to the US shows 1925.


Could you provide us with that immigration entry? I would like to see it.


I thought I could, but after doing a little research I found out that I can´t.

In here, you will find his wife´s (Elizabetta) entry into the US. According to Ellis Island passenger manifests she travelled from Palermo, Sicily with her brother Calogero Minore. So Salvatore Maranzano (her husband) was not with her on this trip.


In an interview for the newspaper L´Ora Jan 23, 1962 former Mafia member Dr Melchiorre Allegra stated that Maranzano backed him for political office in 1924, showing Allegra around in the city of Palermo.

Former secret service agent Joseph Palma testified for the Kefauver Committee that in 1925 Maranzano moved to Canada (from Sicily).

And Joseph Bonanno (believe it or not... smile ) says "My life took a decisive turn at the end of 1925 when Salvatore Maranzano, a hero of mine in Sicily, immigrated to the United States."

I believe that Maranzano came to the USA after a short stay in Canada. So he likely entered through Niagara which is why I can´t find him on EllisIsland.org
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/18/12 08:18 PM

Well, at least it looks like you're doing some decent research. Keep up the good work!
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/18/12 08:37 PM

Shoot... Just noticed that I´m still loged in at that site. Don´t know how it works, if people can use my inlog for stuff.
Just to be safe, I will remove the link...
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/19/12 05:57 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Yes. Bonanno mentions Luciano several times in the book.


I thought Bonanno took a slightly denigrating tone toward Luciano in his autobiography:

Bonanno liked to portray himself as "A Man of Tradition" because he was a Sicilian and clung to "the old ways" of "honor," which you can infer, from his book, meant not associating with non-Sicilians or Jews, as Luciano did. He also said Luciano approached him after the Maranzano assassination to explain that he (Luciano) had been the the target of a Maranzano assassination plot, and so he killed him in self-defense. He wrote that Lucian spoke with him in Sicilian, but his Sicilian wasn't very good--another rap on Lucky. "I have no quarrel with you," Bonanno replied. That's just about it, except for Bonanno's description of the Commission.

Ironically, that description provided Rudy Guliani, then the US Attorney for the Southern District of NY, with the ammunition to charge the NY Mafia Dons in the famous "Commission" case under the RICO act--probably the heaviest blow against the Mafia in recent history.
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/19/12 06:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
the famous "Commission" case under the RICO act--probably the heaviest blow against the Mafia in recent history.

But it seriously damaged the leadership of only 2 families - The Colombos and the Luccheses. The Gambino defendants (Castellano and Dellacroce) were dead before the trial, and Tony Salerno of the Genovese was just a front man. I mean, isn't the damage caused to the mafia by that trial sometimes exaggerated?
Posted By: Scorsese

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/19/12 06:32 PM

I think the commision trial helped them gather alot of intelligence and evidence for future investigations.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/19/12 06:33 PM

I think if Lucky were alive today he'd enroll in dental school.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/19/12 06:36 PM

What you say is literally true, Dwalin, from the viewpoint of NYC. But the Columbos and Luccheses never recovered from the loss of two reasonably competent Dons. Castellano and Dellacroce, although removed death not RICO, were succeeded by Gotti and Da Bull, who ran the Gambinos into the ground. More important, the Commission case provided a template for other US Attorneys to go after the Mafia in other cities.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/19/12 06:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Dwalin2011
I mean, isn't the damage caused to the mafia by that trial sometimes exaggerated?

I don't think so, Dwalin. For the simple reason that it showed other US attorneys how to use the RICO statute. It layed the groundwork for every mega-mob trial that followed.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/19/12 10:10 PM

Only the Genoveses were largely unaffected which could be an explanation why they continued to be strong for another decade.
Posted By: Nicholas

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/19/12 11:54 PM

Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: Dwalin2011
I mean, isn't the damage caused to the mafia by that trial sometimes exaggerated?

I don't think so, Dwalin. For the simple reason that it showed other US attorneys how to use the RICO statute. It layed the groundwork for every mega-mob trial that followed.


That statute is absolutely fascinating to me. I'm a political science student in Constitutional Law with aspirations of law school, so there's two reasons as to why I love mafia forums; gangsta talk, and legal talk. The RICO statute was not easy to interpret in 1970 and Giuliani's use of it in 1985 did how U.S. Attorney's and county prosecutors how to use the law.

Why did it take 15 years for it to be implemented properly?
Posted By: Mussolini14

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/23/12 07:07 AM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Originally Posted By: Mussolini14


Actually it is common knowledge Joe and his son Bill were neck deep in the drug trade and that 90% of his book is fiction. Do a few searches over at the Realdeal forum and you might have a different opinion. You really think he had know idea his underboss was one of the biggest drug dealers in the country? I suppose to that when Carmine Galante went to Palermo Sicily in 1957 to establish a heroin pipeline to NY, Bonnano went with him just to go sight seeing and had no idea Galante was meeting with heroin dealers at their hotel?


Common knowledge? Please tell me where that common knowledge originates from. From guys posting on Real Deal? Ask their sources and they´ll probably say "well...it´s all over internet!"
Lilo Galante and his crew (Galante was a captain, not Bonanno´s underboss) was heavily involved with drug trafficking. I am not denying that. But if you read Bonanno and do a little research yourself, you will find that the Gambinos, Luccheses and Genoveses had a lot more people involved with drugtrafficking.
Their bosses allowed their men into that field, Bonanno did not.
Neither did Profaci.
It wasn´t until 1963 that Carlo Gambino banned drugtrafficking in his Family. This you can find in FBI documents, on the Mary Farrell Foundation site.
Another way to do a little research (actually it is a major project, but anyway...), take a look in the FBN book. And this is why I mentioned it in an earlier post in this thread. You will see the gros majority of the New York Mafia members and associates, who dealt with narcotics, where part of the Gambino, Lucchese and Genovese Families. Only a handful men, out of 800 listed in that book, was with the Bonannos and Profacis.

As to your statement of 90 percent of Bonanno´s book being fiction...I wonder where did you get that number from?
Nobody, up to date, has been able to prove Bonanno being a liar. So your 90 percent seems a way, way off.

It´s always better to do research by checking sources before believing what everybody can write on the internet.


Well no one knows for sure but IMO it is indisputable that Bonnano was neck deep in the heroin trade considering there are abounding sources including Selwyn Raab and Jerry Capeci that say he was involved in the drug trade and aside from Joe himself and his son Bill there are exactly zero sources that I am aware of which corroborate his kidnapping story and anti drug stance. If you can show me a credible source other than Joe or Bill Bonnano I will certainly keep an open mind though and I am not trying to insult you or personally attack you because we disagree. Furthermore his underboss was one of the biggest drug dealers in the country and do not believe for a second Bonnano didn't know what was going on.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/23/12 10:34 AM

Mussolini wrote:

"Well no one knows for sure but IMO it is indisputable that Bonnano was neck deep in the heroin trade considering there are abounding sources including Selwyn Raab and Jerry Capeci that say he was involved in the drug trade and aside from Joe himself and his son Bill there are exactly zero sources that I am aware of which corroborate his kidnapping story and anti drug stance. If you can show me a credible source other than Joe or Bill Bonnano I will certainly keep an open mind though and I am not trying to insult you or personally attack you because we disagree. Furthermore his underboss was one of the biggest drug dealers in the country and do not believe for a second Bonnano didn't know what was going on."


In no way did your replay came across in my mind that you were insulting me or personally attacking me. I hope you understand that my posts and replies are not meant to be insulting you or attacking you in any way either.
We simply disagree.

The fact that a boss in a crime family does not know all of what is going on should not come as a big surprise. Throughout mob history there are numerous situations where family members acted without the boss´s knowledge or consent. Even when the boss´s power was, or was supposed to be, absolute.
A boss´s ban on drugdealing and the members engagement in it can easily fall into this category. Even with the ban and the threat of being killed if gettin caught, members did not keep themselves out of the drug trade.
Galante was not killed for his transgressions. But he was stripped of his capo rank and shelved.

It´s not up to the accused to prove himself innocent, it´s up to the accuser to prove his guilt. As far as I know, neither Raab or Capeci has presented any evidence backing up their statements. I believe these were made out of perceptions and hearsay stemming from the government´s fumbling attempts to put Bonanno behind bars in the 1960s. And also because of rumors of Bonanno´s still involvement with the Bonanno crime family in the 1970s (which is complete nonsense), when the Family was huge in the drug trade.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/23/12 03:57 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
It´s not up to the accused to prove himself innocent, it´s up to the accuser to prove his guilt.

That's true in a court of law, not in the court of public opinion. And that's all these boards are.
Posted By: Mussolini14

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/23/12 04:54 PM

While certainly Raab and Capeci can't possibly know for sure unless they were there. Nevertheless they are widely regarded as experts on mafia history and as far as I am aware neither has been criticized as a liar or fabricator and do not see a motive for them to lie about such things. Without a doubt I accede underlings do things such as broker drug deals that their bosses are not aware of. Notwithstanding I find it illogical and unreasonable to believe someone as savvy as Joe Bonanno would be unaware that his underboss was moving massive amounts of heroin for a decade. We're not talking about the occasional drug deal. Galante was one of the biggest traffickers in the country for over a decade while serving as Underboss to Bonnano. Furthermore by most accounts Joe Bonanno was highly intelligent and Carmine Galante was on the slow side, even diagnosed as borderline retarded while in prison IIRC which makes it even more improbable that he could hide such a large scale operation from Bonanno for so long. Also why do you suppose Bonanno was in Sicily with Galante staying in the same Palermo hotel as Galante and other Sicilian heroin traffickers while meetings regarding the heroin pipeline from Sicily to the USA were taking place? Again I always try and keep an open mind and look forward to hearing your response.
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/23/12 05:10 PM

Mussolini14, weren't you the one who once said you believed that story told by 2 former cops I argued with that Vic Amuso was innocent and that you didn't believe Capeci? And now you are talking about Bonanno like you believe he was guilty. What's the difference between the two? They are both mobsters. I thought you didn't believe in the existence of the mafia at all, according to what you told me then.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/23/12 08:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Mussolini14
Also why do you suppose Bonanno was in Sicily with Galante staying in the same Palermo hotel as Galante and other Sicilian heroin traffickers while meetings regarding the heroin pipeline from Sicily to the USA were taking place?


There were actually two meetings during Bonanno´s visit to Palermo in 1957. When word got around that Joe Bonanno was in Italy and heading to Palermo, some of the Sicilian Family leaders reached out to him to ask for Bonanno´s help. They arranged a get-together at Spano´s Restaurant.
At the gathering, some of the Sicilian Family leaders approached Bonanno asking for guidence in resolving issues they had with one another, in hopes of putting an end to the Sicilian marketplace killings. The Sicilians knew that in America, at least since 1931, the Commission had been a successfull tool of keeping the peace. They wanted to know how it worked.
In attendence were Santo Sorge from Sicily, representing Lucky Luciano (who, contrary to published reports, was not present); Carmine Galante, John Bonventre, Frank Garofalo, Toto Greco, Joe Bonanno, Tomas Buscetta and other heads of the Sicilian Mafia such as Nino Badalamenti of Cinisi and Toto Riina of Corleone, who were fighting eachother.
At this meeting, the Sicilians suggested a formal alliance between the US Mafia and the Sicilians.
The discussions were informal, so no deciscion was made because Bonanno had no authorization for such a meeting in the first place. But this meeting was an opportunity for a number of people involved to hear some insights and suggestions from someone whose experience might benefit them. Keep in mind that Bonanno functioned as the chairman of the Commission at this time.

Sometime later the second meeting was held at the Grand Hotel. And narcotics was at the agenda. Here´s what Bill Bonanno says about it in his book "The Last Testament":

"At this meeting the Commission´s ban on narcotics trading, was put to a dramatic challenge. It soon became apparent from the Sicilian mafiosi in attendance that many of the Families in the United States considered the ban nothing more than lip sevice...
In an effort to explain to the Sicilians why my father opposed drug trafficking, he addressed the subject directly at the meeting. My father found narcotics and prostitution despicable, beneath the dignity of real men of honor. The Bonanno Family made money from gambling, liquor, the garment industry and other businesses that were not regarded by the politicians as hurting people. If the Families got deep into narcotics, he argued, we would loose the support of the politicians we had cultivated so carefully over the years, and law-enforcement officials would no longer be our silent and forgiving partners.
He informed the Sicilian leaders, "What businesses you elect to engage in is your Family´s decision and will not be interfered with by the Bonanno Family. However, Bonanno will not deal in drugs. And any member of my Family caught doing so will pay the penalty with death.""

Furthermore, Bill Bonanno says:

"Upon my father´s return to New York from Palermo, he called a meeting of all the group leaders in the Bonanno Family. All agreed that no one in our Family would deal in narcotics. His explanation to the Family in that meeting was plain:
"When things become a little hard, about narcotics, I pass[ed] a law in my Family. I don´t have to tell Luciano. Who deal with narcotics, you die. I give you three months of time. Pack up, close, no more business; the benefit of the doubt. Anybody fool me, they´re gonna get killed. Men of tradition approve that. They don´t like. In Charlie [Luciano´s] Family, and in [the] Lucchese Family, look like there was some that didn´t like the idea. My personal law. The cops will come in and they will destroy us and destroy the tradition and the system.""
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/23/12 10:38 PM

I think you have to take what both Joe and Bill Bonanno said in their autobiographies with a dump truck of salt. Very much a whitewash job. Like most mob guys, they're going to try to make themselves look more noble than their counterparts or than they themselves probably were. Bottom line, given the Bonanno family's deep involvement in the drug trade, both before and after Bonanno was sent packing to Arizona, I find it very hard to believe he took a hard stance against narcotics.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/27/12 11:30 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Galante was not killed for his transgressions. But he was stripped of his capo rank and shelved.


Sounds very unlikely. How did he become such a bigshot in the 70s after being released from prisonif he was only a soldier? It's been said that he was supported by most of the other caporegimes. And he was at least a capo by then, he must have been. I don't think other caporegimes would take orders from a soldier and the only one capable of promoting him would have been the official boss, Rusty Rastelli. And the likelyhood that Rastelli, who was Galante's rival, would promote him was very slim at best.
Posted By: Chopper2012

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/28/12 10:48 AM

Just read the Luciano bio by Tim Newark.

He paints a picture of Luciano being a shadow of his former self after his deportation to Italy, not even being present at the famous 1957 meeting in Palermo, and surviving on money that Lansky would sent him. Other books portray Lucky as a big time international heroin dealer until the day he died, holding on to power in the States as well as in Italy.

Wonder which one is true?
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/28/12 11:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Galante was not killed for his transgressions. But he was stripped of his capo rank and shelved.


Sounds very unlikely. How did he become such a bigshot in the 70s after being released from prisonif he was only a soldier? It's been said that he was supported by most of the other caporegimes. And he was at least a capo by then, he must have been. I don't think other caporegimes would take orders from a soldier and the only one capable of promoting him would have been the official boss, Rusty Rastelli. And the likelyhood that Rastelli, who was Galante's rival, would promote him was very slim at best.


Lilo´s supporters within the Bonanno Family tried several times to intercede on his behalf but all failed. So he had followers who wanted him back into the boss´s grace.

We know that the Bonanno Family was reorganized after the Bananas war in a considerable way. It is possible that the bosses who gained power after the retirement of Joe Bonanno reinstalled Lilo back into a capo position.
Galante´s FBI files which can be found in the Vault is so heavily blackened it´s nearly impossible to read. Basically all info in there that is coming from informants are redacted. We simply don´t know how Galante gained the power he wielded in the 1970s.
But the subject is intriguing and very interesting. This is making me want to request his files just to satisfy my curiosity. I´m sure the processors at the FBI will leave much more open text to read than what´s available in the Vault at the moment.
Posted By: Mussolini14

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/28/12 12:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Dwalin2011
Mussolini14, weren't you the one who once said you believed that story told by 2 former cops I argued with that Vic Amuso was innocent and that you didn't believe Capeci? And now you are talking about Bonanno like you believe he was guilty. What's the difference between the two? They are both mobsters. I thought you didn't believe in the existence of the mafia at all, according to what you told me then.


I said nothing even close to that. What I said was I would believe the opinion of someone who interacted with a guy for 20+ years than I would of some schlub who read a few Capeci articles and now thinks they are an expert. Furthermore I believe it was yourself who made the ridiculous claim that 10-15% of Italians were mob members or associates and I simply pointed out how inaccurate that was.
Posted By: Scorsese

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/28/12 02:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Chopper2012
Just read the Luciano bio by Tim Newark.

He paints a picture of Luciano being a shadow of his former self after his deportation to Italy, not even being present at the famous 1957 meeting in Palermo, and surviving on money that Lansky would sent him. Other books portray Lucky as a big time international heroin dealer until the day he died, holding on to power in the States as well as in Italy.

Wonder which one is true?


I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. When he first got deported he probably was in charge and still had the power but as time went on people back home in ny started to wonder why they were taking orders from someone on the other side of the world, which is where vito genovese moved in. Alot of conflicting stories about luciano but im guessing he didnt die with the same power or as a big time drug trafficker he was before.
Does anyone know how powerful he was in italy?
Posted By: Chopper2012

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/28/12 03:56 PM

Tim Newark can't seem to make up his mind either.

He mentions the incident where Luciano was slapped in the face on the street in Napoli by a local mafioso. Then he mentions the same mafioso was found dead a week later, implying Luciano had something to do with it, without giving any sources or further information.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/28/12 05:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Chopper2012
He mentions the incident where Luciano was slapped in the face on the street in Napoli by a local mafioso. Then he mentions the same mafioso was found dead a week later, implying Luciano had something to do with it, without giving any sources or further information.


Interestingly, John Dickie states in his book Cosa Nostra that the man who slapped Luciano was killed by a Sicilian boss in the 1970s.
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/28/12 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Mussolini14

I said nothing even close to that. What I said was I would believe the opinion of someone who interacted with a guy for 20+ years than I would of some schlub who read a few Capeci articles and now thinks they are an expert. Furthermore I believe it was yourself who made the ridiculous claim that 10-15% of Italians were mob members or associates and I simply pointed out how inaccurate that was.

YOU are an idiot schlub, not me. The fact you like the mafia proves it. I just said I believed AMUSO was a mobster, not 10-15% of Italians. As for those 2 cops who interacted with Amuso and claimed he didn't deserve to go to jail, did you ever think about the possibility they were just mob sympathizers who may have taken money from him?
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/28/12 06:25 PM

Come on, guys rolleyes.
Posted By: Chopper2012

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 02/29/12 12:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
Originally Posted By: Chopper2012
He mentions the incident where Luciano was slapped in the face on the street in Napoli by a local mafioso. Then he mentions the same mafioso was found dead a week later, implying Luciano had something to do with it, without giving any sources or further information.


Interestingly, John Dickie states in his book Cosa Nostra that the man who slapped Luciano was killed by a Sicilian boss in the 1970s.


That is interesting. And I must say I hold John Dickie in higher regard than Tim Newark. I have Cosa Nostra but read it years ago, will look that part up.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 03/02/12 10:51 AM

I really don´t want to come across as a nagger, but here´s some interesting excerpts from an interesting FBI report, posted by David Critchley on another Mafia Forum.
An Informant who, I believe, was active in Philly seems to confirm Bill Bonanno´s statement that Lilo was indeed shelved.

"The informant said that he recognized a photograph of CARMINE GALANTE as an individual known to him on one occasion and said that he believes that he is a member of the Organization. He said that he is getting along in years and he believe that GALANTE may be in a "retired status"."

- Other interesting stuff found in the report:

"The informant said that although he assumes that the name "La Cosa Nostra" grew into popular use through some mistake he had never heard the Organization referred to in this manner until the year of 1963. He claimed that he had never heard actual members refer to it by any name and considered that this was not necessary.
He assumed that use of "La Cosa Nostra" may have developed as a result of some members talking in the presence of another individual who was not a member in attempting to make themselves clear to each other, one of them may have referred to the Organization as "Our Thing", and the use of "La Cosa Nostra" subsequently developed."

- On the Scafidis:

"The informant had also learned that ROCCO SCAFIDI had been incarcerated at the Philadelphia Detention Center with PHILIP TESTA. He said that SCAFIDI's father,TOM GAETANO, had been a member of the Organization but that he had never heard that any of the SCAFIDI boys had become members. He said it was very doubtful if ROCCO would be accepted as a member as he is "too radical".
He also said tnat in his opinion ROCCO is always trying to capitalize on the reputation of his father who is deceased. ROCCO was said to be hours doing things that get himself in trouble and cause embarrassment to others. To his knowledge ROCCO has been this way for at least ten years.
The informant said that he has known ANDY SCAFIDI for many years and that this individual is "sick in the head".
Another brother SALVATORE was said to be dying of cancer.

With regard to information reported concerning a previous contact with the informant as to GAETANO SCAFIDI killing his wife the informant said that this is apparently a misunderstanding that he wants to correct. The man who committed the killing in this situation was MICHAEL MAGGIO
(deceased) who killed both his second wife and one of his sons when he found them in bed together." (!!!)

- On Harry Riccobene:

"HARRY RICCOBENE a member of the Organization in Philadelphia has tried to have John's Vending buy out Penn Jersey Vending completely but ANGELO BRUNO does not want to make the complete sale.
BRUNO claims that the portion of Penn-Jersey that he continues to control furnishes him a living and a salary to his wife and possibly one other person.
The informant said that he knows that HARRY RICCOBENE has sent orders to MARIO "SONNY" RICCOBENE to continue efforts to completely buy out Penn Jersey and thereby eliminate Penn Jersey from any association with John's Vending. HARRY RICCOBENE feels that the current association between the two vending companies is hurting the business of John's Vending due to the current notoriety of ANGELO BRUNO and his known association with Penn-Jersey.
SONNY RICCOBENE is not a member of the Organization and probably will not be as long as HARRY RICCOBENE is alive.
The informant said that he knows that HARRY RICCOBENE is definitely opposed to his half-brother MARIO "SONNY" RICCOBENE becoming a member of the Organization."

If anybody is interested to read the whole report, PM me and I will send you the PDF file.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: How far would Luciano have gotten today? - 03/02/12 06:02 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
"The informant said that he recognized a photograph of CARMINE GALANTE as an individual known to him on one occasion and said that he believes that he is a member of the Organization. He said that he is getting along in years and he believe that GALANTE may be in a "retired status"."


May be
is a different story than is. Also, I think Galante was in jail at the time when this was stated by that informant. And he doesn't state anything about "being shelved."

Quote:

"The informant said that although he assumes that the name "La Cosa Nostra" grew into popular use through some mistake he had never heard the Organization referred to in this manner until the year of 1963. He claimed that he had never heard actual members refer to it by any name and considered that this was not necessary.
He assumed that use of "La Cosa Nostra" may have developed as a result of some members talking in the presence of another individual who was not a member in attempting to make themselves clear to each other, one of them may have referred to the Organization as "Our Thing", and the use of "La Cosa Nostra" subsequently developed."


That's very interesting. As a non-Italian, I always had trouble with the "la" thing, which was artificially added by the FBI so they could refer to it as LCN, which they apparantly considered to be a nicer abbreviation. If I was an Italian, I would be insulted by such arrogancy.
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