Jack Tocco(detroit mafia)vsTaco Bowman(Outlawsmc)

http://www.americanmafia.com/News/3-15-00_Nove_Tocco_Turned.html

http://www.forensic-intelligence.org/mob/40062.htm

Who Do you think would win if a war happened between the Outlaws Mc and Detroit Mafia. Would it have been another Danny Greene incident like in Cleveland? If they was to kill Harry "Taco" Bowman it would have been a war.

outlaws in my opinion. much more manpower and more prone to violence.

more prone to violence it doesn't mean more powerful, mafia is sure more powerful in detroit that bikers or street gangs so i bet they would win a war in a long period

the outlaws are based out of chicago, and in the case of an all out war they have alot of more manpower to call on. granted, size doesnt always dictate power but the detroit mob would not do well in an all out war with a biker org as feared as the outlaws. theres a reason the outfit uses them for musle. also, if you think the dertroit mafia is more powerful than the many street gangs of detroit i couldnt disagree more. detroit is a hell hole run by murderous savages while whats left of that family is a bunch of old men concentrating on gambling rings. your right when you say that being prone to violence doesnt always mean more powerful, however if the mob stepped on the toes ofsome of those gangbangers they wouldnt think twice of taking revenge on family or relatives. drug gangs play by different rules.

i doubt the street gangs have familiarity with the mob style, they know their zones rules with most of members wearing bandanas and show tattoos, they are easy targets
the made member of detroit mafia are known by other members only, a street gangs coulnd't know even where to start killing

like getting your opinion,but have to disagree again. in the underworld money talks and getting/finding mobsters wouldnt be impossible, i bet with just a computer finding places where mobsters hang out could be done. if we were talking about the five families competing with street gangs you might have a better point but this is detroit for christs sake. that family will be lucky to even be around in 20 years and you can bet the gangs will still be there. face it, the dertoit family lost control of that warzone a long time ago and they arent coming back.

http://youtu.be/T6WKMNmFsxM


i would ask anyone to watch this and it should erase any doubts about whats left in detroit

These hypothetical scenarios just go in circles. Nevertheless, an all out war would almost certainly never happen. And even if it did, how you define "winning?" And, in the end, the real winners would be the feds.

the mafia in detroit is not interested in selling drugs on the streets, it's too dangerous this days... if it's involved it's involved behind the scene as importer since it very close to sicilians
gangs are loosely organized, 1 indictment with heavy sentences could be enough to dismantled it totally, of course another gang would replce it but they are not the same organization permanent in time

i think the drug cartels, mainly los zetas are the major drug importers in the area. oh, and maybe a few crazy middle easterners.

i think a large amount of drug comes from canada and the mafia is sure involved

What's left of the Detroit family appears to have little to no interest in narcotics. I can't even remember the last drug bust involving the LCN in that city. What's left is the standard staples of bookmaking, loansharking, and whatever legit businesses some of them may have.

maybe some weed and mdma but the ghetto drugs like coke and heroin are almost certainly strait from the cartels as is the case in almost all major american cities, although there is alot of drug importation in and around montreal, i just dont think alot of it is destined for detroit.

because of the proximity i think a large part of coke, mdma, cannabis and heroin could come from montreal

Opinion, not at all fact.

from my understanding most of the drugs imported into montreal are for use in that city and other parts of canada with some exceptions of coarse. alot more would come into the us back when the rizzuto/bonnano connection was stronger and as that died down so did the drug flow from montreal to the us. it just doesnt make sense for the cartels(who at this point nobody can deny are the top impoters of drugs worldwide) to risk thier loads getting them to canada and then again to the us. this is not to say that smaller players arent involved but the days of sicilians running the world drug markets are long gone. as far as italians go the calabrians are the top dogs now and although they have an increased influence in montreal as of late, they dont seem to be major impoters of drugs to the united states. they are more focused on the ever expanding european markets and canada and australia to a lesser extent

Yep. When it comes to Italian OC, most of the trafficking is going northward, not southward.

In the drug game your better dealing with blacks because they don't rat

Remember the Stop Snitching campaign? They're were singing all to well for awhile.

Shirts and everything those fuckers had. They should have printed some up for the Colombo family and Massino-era Bonannos.

In the streets and in prison --- where it really matters, yeah it does. Felonies is right Detroit is probably going to be the first LCN family to be exinct, maybe after KC, but definitely up there. I like to think of myself as being honest with myself as to the state of the American mafia, maybe albeit a little to hopeful, naive, about the stability of the remaining families. But even if a rival crew of Nove Tocco (who's a snitch) tried to manipulate them into killing the head of a powerful biker gang; you really think there wouldn't be a far more brutal revenge on those wiseguys? Detroit may have some thick necked soldiers --- a handful, if that. But the Outlaws have literally hundreds, and whos far more down to Uzi some guys house or kill multiple enemies, instead of one good hit? Shit, when was Detroits last "hit", 2002?

Those guys were more often than not, facing real prison sentences. And as with Massino, forfeiture of all assets ---fucking pieces of shit (the Feds more so than Massino). Most Yoms, who were the intended target of Stop Snitching are on drug or drug dealing pinches. A helluva lot different than drug trafficking RICO busts.

The fuck's a yom?

This is what snitchin gets you in the hood.
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/video/050809_Mob_Talk_Kaboni_Savage_Drug_Ring

Suprised they didnt move the guys family somewhere else.

As for the whole mafia vs mc/street gangs thing it would never happen because their activities are too different. The mobs main thing is gambling, loansharking extortion and labour racketeering.These sorts of things dont lead them into any competition with other groups except maybe eachother. With street gangs the only people that threaten them are other street gangs and drug traffickers. Bikers only really ever fight with other bikers because thats their priority to make sure other mcs stay out of their town.

I have to disagree. Are you really trying to argue that guys the mob hires for muscle are more powerful than the ones paying them? That's like saying a soldier is more powerful than the Don because he uses them for muscle. As far as man power goes, I think they would be about even as for every "made member" there are 5-10 associates. Bikers walk around with jackets IDing who they are and I believe the mob would have a much easier time knocking off key members of bike gang more so than the other way around. IF you are familiar with the book "the 6th family" Even someone as highly ranked as HA Mom Boucher was subservient to Vito, granted Detroit might not be as powerful as Montreal and we really don't know for sure how big or small the Detroit family is. Scott from the Realdeal forum who wrote a book on the subject believes they have 40-50 made guys on the street and knowledgeable guys like Ivy think the number is closer to 20.

They would never fight anyway.

You forgot drugs. Don't kid yourself ever mob family is involved in the drug trade. Granted they don't sell dime bags on the street corner but they supply and provide the trade routes. In a recent bust it came out that the Gambino's were overseeing the drug trade in Queens and reestablishing contacts with Mafia families in Italy to import heroin and cocaine.

some good points and although they would probably never fight this is a hypothetical situation. also for every full patch member of a biker gang there are many more prospects and hang-arounds just as the mob has associates. when the mob hires other groups out for muscle its for mutual benifit as in montreal. not trying to argue that the ha was more influential in montreal, as they have been decimated recently but to think that the rizzutos would give orders and the ha would follow blindly doesnt fly with me. working together is better for everyone which is why groups prefer to work together. bikers are very independent by nature and to think that any group would dictate to them what to do and not expect serious blowback just inst viable. i enjoyed the 6th family but christ that book made it seem like the rizzutos were the most powerful criminal org on earth so i tend to take all the hype with a grain of salt.

sorry my bad
Yeah i know they are involved with drugs buts not on the level they used to. Their mostly midlevel traffickers with maybe some that are involved with the wholesale end. They dont control the supply or trade routes. In that case in queens they probably oversaw and supplied a significant number of dealers and collected tax off of them but they were probably being supplied by a different group altogether. Basically like everyother drug gang. Italian connection thing is from 2008 bust when they were attempting restablish drug trade with the sicilians but theres been no real evidence that they have.

http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs38/38661/movement.htm#Top

Most drugs come from Mexico, with the exception of MDMA.

http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs38/38661/dtos.htm#Top

Italian OC only gets one mention in the report and it's buried in the section about Mexican groups.

lol, sorry about that man. You of Italian descent? I know your Aussie, but there's a bunch of Calabrian descented peoples in Melbourne. Yom, is short for mulignon, an Italian-American term for blacks, originating from melanzina, or egg plant. It's not racist per se, though in Hollywood films and TV, it typically has a racist connotation. Though Italian-Americans are typically portrayed as prejudiced against, particularly, blacks which is a shame.

Mulignan is half-offensive depending on context, though has none of the connotation or history that other American racial epithets have.

Ah. Thanks for clarifying. For the record, I had thought that 'moolie' was considered derogatory nomenclature.

Yeah, the vast percentage of Italian-Australians are Calabrese. Very predominant in Melbourne, but actually pretty common around the rest of their country. Anyway, I think we've hi-jacked this thread.

the last year report mention italians several times, they were second after mexicans i doubt they disappear in just 1 year
some report is full of bullshit maybe
sicilians are still in the drugs heavily, caruana's in canada dicatate the routes ndrangheta have to talk with them before doing something in canada or the states, the real nadrangheta strenght is in europe not the americas they are subservient of cosa nostra there

m2w heres the national drug threat assessment 2011. Italian organised crime isnt really mentioned. I admit that in canada they are considered big in the drug game but as far as distribution in the us they arent really big players. I know that you said that some reports are bullshit but still if they were of any significance it would warrant a mention somewhere.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/64319036/National-Drug-Threat-Assessment-2011

then it was the 2010 one

The New Jersey, Chicago (for the most part), and Detroit families really don't seem to be.

It was actually the 2009 DEA report. Below is not the entire thing but a summary -

http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs31/31379/dtos.htm#Overview

The 2010 report gives the impression that 2009 was a break from the norm as far as Italian trafficking goes. They're not mentioned at all in the most up to date report and only get passing references in the years before that.

you forgot they are the most secretive togheter with the genovese

italians are not like street gangs or mexicans they are more secretive, that's coz you find them so much a year and not another but sure they don't disappear just in 1 year

The Genovese family has had a number of busts involving drugs. Are you saying these other families have some kind of secret to avoid detection that the Genovese don't? Or could it be that they just aren't involved in the drug trade? Hmmm.



Again, there have been plenty of mob-related drug cases involving the NY families and, to a lesser extent, those in New England and Philadelphia. But you can go back over a decade now and see not one drug case connected to the DeCavalcante family in New Jersey or the Detroit family. And only a couple loosely connected to Chicago.

the genovese's have more busts because in new york cosa nostra is the highest priority

im so sick of hearing things like this. yes, not everything is known about the mafia but plenty is. people need to get this idea out of thier head that these guys are like the cia, and less so every decade. also we can all pretty much agree that the mafia in north america are mid-level dealers at best. as far as international goes the calabrians are kings of that with the scicilians in a greatly diminished role, period!

in canada they are the top dogs, in the states they are not anymore but heavily mentioned in the drug report in 2009 described as the strongest after mexicans and stronger than asian oc cubans an dominicans... so they are still involved especially behind the scene

no, no, no. in new york where the mob is still very viable every enthnic group you listed are bigger players than the italians.

i don't think so recent reports say the gambino's control almost all drugs in the queens, only dominicans are close to italians in new york

with a statement like that you have to be trolling, are you related to bridgeportvet? no more arguing buddy.

since asian and mexicans are big players in new york? youre talking out of your ass

They controlled the cocaine trade in part of queens. And then began moving marijuana ectasy much later. What report says they control the entire drug trade in queens. For them to control the entire drug trade in queens would require alot of cooperation or fighting from other drug gangs in the area which would have been something highlighted when the last bust happened.

according to that report they were the top dogs in queens and they had deals in all the districts and its just 1 family

The 2009 DEA report didn't say that at all. In terms of the drug trade, Italian OC/LCN was listed along with the Mexicans, Asians, Colombians, Dominicans, and Cubans. The Mexican groups were said to be at the top throughout the country, except the northeast, where there is more competition from the other groups. If anything, the report gave the impression that Italian OC/LCN was last in terms of a narcotics trafficking priority. Probably why they haven't been mentioned the last two years.

There is little to no Italian mob presence in the drug trade outside of the northeast. And that's because upwards of 90% of the mob's membership is found in the northeast. The NY families are still very involved in drugs but, to call them the "top dogs" in the drug trade there would be an exaggeration. And there is some involvement by the New England and Philadelphia families.

The bottom line is, other groups that are basically strictly drug-trafficking organizations are going to have more involvement than LCN families; who depend on other rackets as well, particularly illegal gambling.

He'll tweak his claims to make it sound like thats what he was really saying all along next. .

Besides, the reports are WRONG. m2w knows whats really going on in the States. He is, after all, in Italy.

...wait, what?

dead on. the northeast because of its many ethnic groups is probably the only region in the us that is not completly dominated by the mexicans, although the sinaloa cartel, widely regarded as the most powerful criminal org on earth, still has a large presence there.the huge ports in jersey/new york are the main source of the drug importation in the area, and with the many carribean islands used as a stop over it is logical that the columbians, dominicans, cubans, and puerto ricans are behind alot of the imports. the closest the mob comes to being the top dog would be in the pill markets imo.

the mob was heavily involved in distribution in queens and other districts, it's not clear who are the biggest importer, mexicans are not top dogs importer in the northeast probably colombians are and much drugs come to montreal or quebec (italian mafia)
i don't know if the families are involved in some shipping but it could be since they have big deal in new york and jersey ports

reasonable post. columbians might still be the biggest importers, MIGHT, but the mexicans, sinaloa in particular, are gaining steam fast and its only a matter of time before they are the biggest, if they arent already.the northeast is unique in the fact that its one of the last places, along with florida, that drugs enter the us on a big scale. estimates range from 75%-90% of drugs enter the us through the immense southwest border. granted, large amounts of drugs do enter montreal but i wonder how much of them come through the us first. besides most of the drugs that reach montreal are to be dispensed across canada anyways.

yes but a part of the drugs entering montreal go to the states
it depends what's going with mexican in the next years it's a total chaos right now
of course the south is dominated by mexicans coz proximity but the north is another matter

you should do more research on the mexican cartels. while things are without a doubt chaotic down there, those cartels, particularly the sinaloa and los zetas, are so big that no matter how big the setbacks, things pretty much stay the coarse in terms of buisness.

in europe they are not involved at all the cocaine come directly from colombia
in the states mexicans are so bis because of their proximity to american southern border

correct, alot of the coke comes direct from columbia but the calabrians do alot of buisness with los zetas. thing is that most of the major columbian cartels were shattered in the early 90's, and with the exception of the Norte del Valle Cartel, have splintered into numerous small competing factions more concerned with getting all the drugs to mexico asap.

Yeah, it always irks me when people talk about how secretive the mob is and how much we don't know about them. There are definitely people that are genuinely secretive (Tony Federici and Tino Fiumara come to mind). However, the feds are generally on top of things. These guys aren't geniuses. LCN gets busted all the time. Some families are better at taking the blows but none of them are immune.

Boucher was certainly not taking orders from Vito but IMO it was clear Vito was first amoung equals and made several decisions such as who he would sell to and the price of Cocaine and Hash that Mom objected to but ended up towing the line anyway. Now had anyone else made a decision that Mom Boucher didn't like he surely would have reacted much differently.

Sounds like you are the one talking out your ass claiming they still enforce the "no drug rule" in LCN. And saying other ethnic groups are bigger players than LCN in NY of all places confirms this.

I don't think anyone would argue that the Mexicans were not #1 in the drug trade in NA. So my question is when did they surpass the Colombians and do you think they Mexicans will always dominate this trade or will they go the way of Escobar and be replaced?

not sure what to make of the first part of this post. i never said anything about a no drug rule in lcn. i thought that it was pretty obvious that i meant the other ethnic groups were bigger players when it comes to DRUGS.as for the second part, in the early 90's after escobar was killed the medellin cartel fragmented, leading to the rise of the cali cartel. it wasnt long after that increased pressure from the us and columbian governments caused the same thing to happen to the cali cartel.th e only semi organized cartel left in columbia is the norte del valle cartel. these splinter groups, as well as farc and other paramilitaies are more concerned with production and getting the product to mexico rather than directly into the us which has led to the rise of the mexicans.increased security after 911 even further diminished the drug corridors in the carribean and south florida, although plenty of drugs still follow these routes just not nearly on the scale that they once did. the mexicans are here and they arent going anywhere anytime soon.

http://www.silive.com/eastshore/index.ssf/2011/08/staten_island_marijuana_cocain.html

Gambino cocaine ring. This is probably the norm for mob drug traffickers. There more or less just like every other drug gang in the city.

Staten Island marijuana, cocaine bust lands 3 mob heavy-hitters in cuffs
Published: Thursday, August 11, 2011, 1:33 PM Updated: Friday, August 12, 2011, 7:00 AM
By John M. Annese
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Neil Lombardo, 55, of Las Vegas, left, and Joseph Sclafani, 46, of Prince's Bay, were among two suspects in a drug ring.
STATEN ISLAND, N.Y. -- Three Mafia heavy-hitters have been arrested on federal charges they ran three marijuana grow houses and a cocaine distribution ring on Staten Island.
The arrests read like a Gambino crime family who’s who list — Joseph Sclafani, 46, who in 1989 harbored a fugitive mobster who killed a DEA agent in the borough's Charleston section; Neil Lombardo, 55, who shot and wounded an informant’s brother; and Afrim Kupa, 38, a professional heist man with ties to Albanian organized crime and the Gambinos.
Last night, DEA agents raided a grow house at 264 New Dorp Ln., seizing 150 marijuana plants, according to federal law enforcement sources. And when they arrested Kupa in his swank Kensico Street home in Richmond, they found a kilo of cocaine and the suspect wearing an ankle bracelet from a past arrest, sources said.
The marijuana operation lasted more than three years, federal authorities allege.

GROW HOUSES
DEA agents first raided one of their grow houses this past April — a sophisticated, hydroponic lab run out of an auto repair garage at 3075 Veterans Rd. West — and arrested two men, Keith Levine, 33, of Eltingville, and Michael Arroyo, 37, of Sunnyside, according to prosecutors.
The bust made front-page headlines, and it spurred one of the suspects’ accomplices — identified only as a confidential source in court papers — to shut down a second grow house on Seguine Avenue.
Sclafani repeatedly requested the informant re-open the Seguine Avenue operation, to recoup the losses from the Charleston bust, court papers allege.
Sclafani had also started another grow house in a garage at the aforementioned New Dorp Lane address in 2008 and, with the informant’s help, ran two growing cycles that yielded about 100 plants.
The garage is tucked behind a commercial strip along New Dorp Lane, at the end of an alley next to a deli. Just across the street sits the New Dorp office of Rep. Michael Grimm.

THE COCAINE CONNECTION
Sclafani, who lives on Wheeling Avenue in Prince’s Bay, started distributing cocaine around the same time, getting his supply from Lombardo, who lives in Las Vegas, court papers allege.
Lombardo would give Sclafani the cocaine in advance, on the expectation that he’d get paid $32,000 a kilogram from proceeds from the drug sales, court papers allege. Sclafani said in one conversation caught on tape that he was trying to sell eight kilograms of cocaine a month.
In recorded conversations, Sclafani told Lombardo that he would "re-rock" the drug, meaning he’d break it down and mix it with other substances, court documents show.

‘OUR NAMES ARE FLASHING’
And Lombardo scolded Sclafani for driving to Boston to make a $10,000 deal: "You can’t keep driving to Boston... You can’t do it. You can’t do business if you’re driving product," he said, adding, "You’re gonna get stopped sooner or later."
"They’re not going to need much," Lombardo continued, court papers allege. "Our names are flashing like a bastard on the computer."
Kupa, meanwhile, was part of Sclafani’s "re-rocking" operation, who performed the process at a house he had in Brooklyn, court papers allege.
The trio are slated to be arraigned in U.S. District Court in Brooklyn this afternoon. If convicted, the defendants face a mandatory minimum sentence of 10 years and a maximum of life in prison, said Robert Nardoza, a spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office for the Eastern District of New York.

CRIMINAL PASTS
All three have lengthy criminal backgrounds, and DEA officials are particularly happy to get Sclafani back behind bars.
Back in 1989, Sclafani helped hide out Costabile (Gus) Farace, a Bonanno associate originally from Prince’s Bay who was being hunted by both the feds and the mob since killing an undercover drug enforcement agent, Everett Hatcher, in Charleston that February 1989.
"This arrest really hits home for the DEA," said John P. Gilbride, special agent in charge of the DEA's New York office, who had worked with and befriended Hatcher.
Farace was gunned down in a gangland-style attack in Brooklyn, and Sclafani, who was in the car with him, was wounded.
He got 33 months in federal for harboring Farace, and his criminal career continued after his release, with charges in 1999 and 2000 for bank fraud, drug trafficking and racketeering that netted him several more years behind bars.
Most recently, he was stopped by Kansas State Police in 2009, and found with 15 cell phones and more than $100,000 cash in a false compartment in the rear bumper of his car, according to federal authorities. That landed him another years in prison for a probation violation.
"Mr. Sclafani apparently has not learned anything from his previous crimes," Gilbride said. "It’s unfortunate that these three individuals continue to get involved in drug trafficking and violence. That’s not a surprise to me, because drug trafficking and violence go hand in hand."

HEIST PRO
Investigators believe some of Sclafani and the drug operation’s money came from Kupa, who made a living pulling off high-end bank and retail heists, said one veteran law enforcement source.
Kupa was on 24-hour house arrest when the DEA came knocking in this recent case. He’s slated to start a 46 prison-sentence on Sept. 30, after pleading guilty in connection with a multi-million dollar bank heist in Brooklyn.
Kupa and a crew of burglars used a blowtorch to cut through the roof of the Astoria Federal Savings Bank at 4302 18th Ave. in February 2009 and made off with 64 safe deposit boxes, according to a law enforcement source familiar with the investigation.
He at one point worked with Miami "club king" and Mafia turncoat Chris Paciello, the source said, and his criminal record dates back to at least 1992, when he was busted on arson and reckless endangerment charges.
His other arrests include a 1995 home invasion robbery where, police said at the time, he held a knife to the throat of the homeowner’s wife, and a 1999 federal indictment accusing he and his brother of staging a string of bank heists across the Midwest and funneling the proceeds into a stolen car parts trafficking scheme.

COCAINE AND QUAALUDES
Lombardo’s criminal history dates back to 1973, when he was arrested on cocaine distribution conspiracy charges.
He was busted again in 1980 and 1983, and in 1998, authorities arrested him in San Diego on charges he was distributing quaaludes.
At one point during the San Diego case, he shot and wounded the brother of a man believed to be cooperating with the law. That netted him a 10-year prison sentence.

Towards the end of the 1990's, with the fall of the Cali cartel, the Mexicans started to become predominant. Cocaine only comes from a few places so the Colombians and Mexicans will always have a geographic advantage. As well as the fact that they're so close to the world's biggest drug market - the U.S. I suppose it's possible we may eventually see the Mexican cartels break down into a number of more fractured groups, similar to what happened to the major cartels in Colombia.

Thats an old one. There is a more recent article floating around regarding the Gambino's and Queens. I will try and find it.

I think it hurts some guys feelings on here that the mob is no longer the top criminal organization in America....The fact that La Cosa Nostra is not even as strong as some of these inner city street gangs is a testament as to how far the granddaddy of all U.S crime rings, La Cosa Nostra, has fallen! It doesn't bother me. But a lot people have this romanticized vision of La Cosa Nostra as being a more respectable, righteous evil organization than the others. So, when another group comes along and challenges them or, in many cases, overtakes them, the pro-La Cosa Nostra fanboys get all bent out of shape!

The ablility to be physically violent goes a long way in prison and on the streets. While a typical mob boss has a lot of overall power due to his position, he would more than likely need protection from guys who had less overall power but more immediate, in-your-face, physical power, especially in prison. Which makes a mob boss' power sort of perverse. It's like he has a lot of power but he doesn't!

See John Gotti and his prison altercation for an example.

I don't believe we have many teenagers on the board so I doubt it would hurt anyone's feelings if LCN or any other criminal group went extinct, however everything you just said is wrong. Give us one example of when another group openly challenged and defeated any LCN family. Just one. Not even as powerful as a street gang? Well the FBI seems to think LCN is still the biggest homegrown threat in the country but I'm sure your "sources" on street gangs are more accurate than the FBI's right?

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/organizedcrime/italian_mafia

Nah, street gangs will always be gnarlier. Just different ways of making illegal money, they don't always inter lap.

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-2012/Gangs-and-Politicians-An-Unholy-Alliance/

I think i posted this article before but thought that it would be informative due to the nature of this discussion.

i don't think a street gang is even comparable with the mafia, the street gangs can't last more than 10 years at most cosa nostra is around for centuries
street gangs are involved only in drug and robberies, nothing else they have no future
nobody really took over, in some cities lcn disappeared coz rico law they don't really care of street gangs members
and where it is still strongly present it's by far stronger than any local gang

Street gangs cant last more than ten years? What do you think the bloods and crips are, most of their original individual sets are still active today and have spread across the country.Even the ones that have started in ny and nj have been around for years. MS-13 and latin kings have been around since the eighties and have factions all over the country not to mention the gangster disciples and vice lords in chicago that have been around since the 60s. Street gangs control the street level and mid level distribution of drugs in large areas which make them incredibly powerful on the street and in the prisons. Their also involved in fraud, extortion, prostitution and money laundering aswell as robbery. I aint sayin that lcn is done or anything but they are not in the position where they can muscle people without consequence. Most of their success was due in part to the fact that the government didnt really go after them till the eighties.

i don't think there is a real continuity between crips and bloods in the times everyone can claim is a member of these gangs since he needn any authorization its enough to wear a bandana lol
it would be impossible to claim being mafioso if you are not you couldnt last 1 hour

yes in new york and jersey and other places they still can

Without any consequences?

Tell that to Vinny Basciano or a dozen others like him.

who hurted basciano except fbi? i'm talking of outside members

Joe Massino .

Not true falsely claiming to be a blood or a crip on the street is what gets people killed.
http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/2...ruggle-rages-on

as for your claim that they are still able to muscle other gangs in new york and new jersey wheres the evidence of this. How comes when those lucchese members were indicted for working with the bloods in nj that they asked the blood leader for help in making another bloods member stop extorting one their associates.
Heres the wiretap transcript from an article i read.
The wiretaps also indicate that the relationship between the Bloods and the Lucchese crime family extended to the streets.

Perna told Spears that an associate of the mob family was being extorted by an individual who claimed to be a member of the Bloods. Perna planned to confront him but wanted Spears' support.

The gang leader was happy to intervene.

"All right, listen. When you meet him, tell him that . . . I'm your brother."

"I'm gonna tell him nicely to - just to back up, because this is not his situation," Perna said as the conversation continued.

Spears provided more advice while offering a look at the inner workings of the Bloods organization and throwing out the nicknames of some of its leaders.

"My gangster name, I'm saying, in my hood is Movelli, all right?" Spears said. "I got five star under Nine Trey Gangster Bloods, all right. . . . Now you tell him that Red Eye brought me home. I'm under Red Eye in New Jersey, and I'm under Frank White in New York. . . . Tell him I can get in contact with anybody from Jersey or New York. . . . Anybody. So whoever he know . . . let him know that, listen, your guy can find out who is who, you know what I'm saying? . . . Find out if the guy's official or not."

Spears also told Perna to mention Shinehead and Mobster Rule, two other gang leaders, even though both were dead.

"Mobster Rule got killed," Spears said. "Shinehead got killed. But throw those names, cause they, they carry a lot . . . of weight. Dead or alive."

and what? perna wanted to meet him, typical of the mob, he didn't fear to meet and probably it would hurt him if he didn't obey
the same happened with the so-called ultraviolent rudaj, after he meet squitieri he calm down and he was cared... the mob is still extremely feared in certain areas

try this, go into any bad area in northern new jersey, newark, jersey city, patterson, east orange and start some trouble. right before you get shot let the gansters know that your with the Lucchese, decalvacante or even the genovese family and see if it stops you from getting shot

honestly is a stupid example it's logic you can't hurt people in their zone infested of some strong gang but they can everywhere out of that since these gangs have influence in a couple of zones at most
the mob has influence all over new york and even other states

i dont know what to make of you sometimes. you seem very knowledgable about the mafia in italy, but over here not so much. gangs do what they want when and where they want in america. try to use these boards to learn something. all of northern new jersey is infested with gangs, some areas more than others but the gangs conduct buisiness as they see fit and nobody tells them what to do. im not saying that they are smart, but they are more entrenched than the mob these days. back in its heyday, the mafia was formed partially as a result of an attempt to escape poverty, and today more italians are sending thier kids to college rather than a life of crime. in the inner cities poverty drives crime and many areas are so bad that people will do whatever they can to make money. these gangs are ready to use violence at the drop of a hat and people notice. the mob might work with gangs for mutual benifit but they do thier own thing.

i never said perna feared him but he knew it wasnt a good idea to confront the guy without some sort of backup the blood would be more afraid of. He couldnt just go their and say im part of the lucchese crime family now stop it before i go tell my daddy.
Why does everyone bring up the albanians? I take it your on about the meeting where they held a gun to the gas pump when squiteri confronted them. But it dont really prove your point because they running around a good 3 or 4 years before that doing and taking what they wanted before gambinos stepped up to them. And i never heard anywhere they actually had to give anything back either. i aint saying the italians arent feared but their not above anyone.

i think you hypes gangs too much... they are not an unique organization there are hundreds of street gangs not connected eachother they can what they want in their little zones only (maybe) not wherever



because somebody calls them ultraviolent more than other gangs, it was just an example... lcn calmed down the most powerful leader of the albanians, he wanted to blow up the gas station coz he was scared the gambinos outnumbered his men 30-5

dont try to although it may appear like i do but its just the way it seems to me in my area. all the best and keep me informed about the goings on in italy.

i'm talking in general not of a single area

the truth is that the just doesnt have the same pull in this country as it did even a few decades ago. they are still the top dogs when it comes to bookmaking, gambling ect but as far as unrivaled power and influence its just not the case over here anymore. the northeast is the american mafias last stronghold and even there the influence is weakened. the government still goes after them hard but it seems to me its more of a pr move at this point. im not trying to argue, just enlighten. i dont claim to know whats going on in italy and maybe you should be a little more open minded as these boards are for learning.

No one said that street gangs are unique or special, but they are not as stupid as people think they are and the mafia isnt as smart and all mighty as people make them out to be.
As for the albanians there are many albanian groups and i doubt he was the most powerful out of them. The showdown at the gas station was the culmination of a few years of incidences with him and the fact that they had to show up with 20 people to get through to him goes to show how threatened they were by him, because it wasnt like he was going after just some associate over a debt but these guys had the audacity to go after gambling rackets even if it was just one place which is basically mobs bread and butter so they had to confront him eventually or else it would just be open season on them from not just the albanians.

It makes you feel better to think that the glorious LCN is still the top dog in the criminal underworld? I bet you have a John Gotti poster hanging on your bedroom wall!

Exactly. The Mafia (LCN) still has this reputation in a lot of people's minds as being this all-powerful and unrivaled criminal group that makes every other criminal group run scared. In many guys minds, a made man can walk on water. I mean, I don't worship criminals or extoll the virtues of any criminal group, but to me, the facts are clear: The American Mafia has not been the top criminal group in the USA for a long time. There's way too much competition. Changing demographics played a huge role. LCN lost its influence in the prisons, too. Lewisburg no longer has a Mafia Row. Nowadays, LCN members in the can have to use other ethnic groups for protection.

yes they are still in new york and a couple of other cities, if you think they are not the top dogs in new york youre talking out of your ass no matter you live there and me not
of course they are much less strong than they used to be in the past but being the biggest priority in some areas it means they are the strongest there i don't think fbi would be so interested in going after them if they were a bunch of nobody like you claim

the mafia are most certainly near the top of the criminal underworld in new york but it depends on your definition of top. in terms of controling territory by force, then definatly not. if you mean connections and behind the scenes controling and extorting companies and corruption at the local level, then yes. its all subjective.

honestly i don't understand your point, lcn is clearly still the strongest organization in new york and probably in the states as a single organization
youre talking like street gangs can do whatever they want lol they control a couple of zones at most they are not able to control even a single city because of too much competition between them...
it's logic that all the street gangs combined have more impact thena mafia but a single street gang is nothing even compared to a small lcn family

point is the mafia still are in control of certain rackets but they dont have anywhere close to a monopoly like they once did. simple/

i'm agree with this i said it is not what it used to be but although weakened is still a big priority in some areas
and i don't see any single street gang even close to mafia even today, although strong in their limited zones they are nothing at national level not even ms13 or latin kings they are involved in street crimes only so how can they be powerful with no political connections?

Yes, in New York LCN is still strong. New York is one of the last areas where LCN is a big force. But they've lost a lot of strength and influence, partly due to law enforcement crackdowns and partly because of the shifting demographics and emergence of other ethnic criminal groups. I never said they were a nobody; I said they are not the top criminal force anymore. If the mob was so big and bad, they would own and run all the major moneymaking rackets and share profits with nobody. But it's not like that. The LCN has to work with other groups; or, on a smaller scale, focus on small gambling and loansharking operations within their own boroughs.

my point is that although much weakened the mob seems to be still the most powerful as a single group among the others (street gangs, bikers, russians etc.) and probably the single richer group
like i said in some areas its still top dogs even in the drug field its works often behind scenes since in the states you got very heavy sentences for drugs its a dangerous field

m2w, was looking for any info you might have on the present day activities of the Sacra Corona Unita such as size influence ect?

The Cosa Nostra will always be around,and they will always earn a lot of money,but their time is over,30-40 years ago there wasnt so much competition like today,and they take most pressure from government.But well:

FBI - Forever Bothering Italians

it's very strong in the province of foggia where there is one of the strongest group at national level according to police,in the rest of apulia is the same, strongly involved in drugs, extortions, gambling etc, strong connections with camorra especially and albanians across the adriatic... the members should be about 15.000 between made members and associates, around 1500 made members i think

This could be a decent topic, if ya know..it was in it's own thread, or the proper thread.

Forgive me for saying, maybe it's the woman in me, maybe I like things organized... but you guys open new threads everytime the slightest thought crosses your minds, except when you should.

How i see street gangs: just a bunch of idi*ts capable of running nothing expect petty crimes etc The real deal are: Russians,Mexicans,Columbians and Italians.The one i mentioned will always have much more money then street gangs, but they will never have man power that street gangs have.

They easily could have more man power than a street gang if they wanted to. more $$$ = more hired help

Small gambling and loansharking? Some families run huge operations, the biggest in the country and the laws are tougher on all syndicates now days, not just the mafia. Look at the gang stats posted by NickyScarfo- Gangs were at there peak in the early-mid 90's and have declined steadily. It much harder for all criminals now day and I don't know why you people are acting as though the cops and prosecutors only use new laws, new forensics and other new technology ect on the mafia and when it comes to other criminals they are only use 1950's technology and procedures.
Also the mafia has always worked with others so your comment that they are now forced to work with other groups because they are so weak is moot. I guess your not up on your mob history or you would know that's exactly why Lucky Luciano killed his boss, because his boss didn't want to work with other ethnics.

Actually more like it took the small Albanian crew 3-4 years to even get on the Gambino's radar. You are completely wrong if you think any domestic American syndicate is above the mafia.

people can agree to disagree about the albanians. When it comes to things like gambling and labour rackets and their history then yeah they are a cut above the rest. But what im saying is on the street in this day and age when it comes down to it they are on the same level as most other groups. No one needs to really go to them for anything and no one needs to work with them.

Mussolini, the five families are a domestic american syndicate. Very few of them are connected to sicilian gangsters in sicily.

True,i know that Frank Cali and a lot of guys from gambino have connections to Sicilian Mafia,Their boss is Sicilian and a reputed soldier Lorenzo Mannino is italian born too.Today they work with other groups and they always worked,like 3-4 months ago some Russians and Gambinos,Bonannos were arrested for bringing womens from Eastern Europe to NY.Better to work with each other and earn money together,than to be in war with each other.

This is one of the truest statements I've read on here.

Sicilian mafioso that are here in the US (and by Sicilian, I mean born and raised in Sicily) have little to do with Italo-American mafia anymore. They don't care that your father's mother is from Sicily, blah blah blah. To them, you're American and that means they don't trust you and in fact, they make jokes about american mafia (you understand why).
They come to the US and seek out their own, to do business with their own, from their very own town in Sicily ideally, and they are the only ones they trust and will do business with anymore. The American mob are pretty much flying solo these days with little to no connection to homeland in Sicily.

There are a few still around, Frank Cali is one, but he's born in the US, anyhow.

Yeah there are probably a handful of guys with connections, but most of your average mob soldiers are not that wide in scope of criminal activities and cannot make use of connections like that.

In that case the russians were a separate group that were specialising in people trafficking and the italians were customers who could supply strip clubs with women. Shows they still got their hands in alot of vice activity in ny.

your right

Back when the pizza connection was up the sicilians needed to allign themselves with a crime family for protection and also the connections on the street or else how were they gonna distribute their heroin otherwise. If they didnt they would be opening themselves up to getting robbed and shot at cause they had no real backup in the country. These days the sicilians that are left from back then are more closer to their american counterparts than italian ones because america is where theyve made their money and leaving the family leaves them vunerable. Its all about protection within mafia, its just an extortion racket on criminals within certain areas.

The worship of Italian-American mobsters is alive and well I see......

I think Chin Gigante had a giant "S" painted on his undershirt and exchanged his bathrobe for a cape when he went home at night!

i dont think so, they are still above the others since more sophisticated and entrenched
on the contrary of other groups that are involved in petty crimes only they have still deals (although much less than the past) in unions, waste disposal, buildings,transports, ports, fruit and fishes markets, politics etc.
i think they are still above the others by far, they were not reduced at the same level of eurasian, balkan groups or street gangs

unions, waste disposal and the others you listed dont for most part bring them into any contact with other groups, the only people that go after them in those rackets are law enforcement. Im talking in terms of their relations with other gangs and also their place in the drug trade.

the fact they are involved in these fields show they are above the other groups by far... they are also involved in drugs, gambling, extortions etc. in the areas where they are still strong they are above even in these fields

in drugs and extortion they arent above anyone. theres about a dozen different other groups that do the same thing some even to a greater extent than the mob. They have an edge when it comes to gambling ill give you that. Ill say that there more expansive in terms of the variety activity but to say that their still a dominant group is just untrue.

they are not big in drugs like they used to be at national level but in certain areas are still the top dogs of course the underworld is much more fractured today but if i would say the strongest group as a whole in the states i still say the cosa nostra since other groups are not so strong like you claim... i think the mafia is above others in general coz it's involved in more and more important fields than others thats what i mean when i say its above

The New York Mob is slowly going the way of the Mickey Mouse Mafia (Los Angeles family): bye-bye. Law enforcement success combined with stoolies in their own ranks have severely decimated the once-powerful Cosa Nostra.

Wrong! Luciano wanted to work with other ethnic groups because it was the best way to maximize profits. That was then. Today, La Cosa Nostra is forced to work with others as a way to "stay in the game" so to speak. There are too many emerging crime competitors for LCN to have a monopoly. They have to work with others mainly because LCN is no longer the absolute top dog. IF they were the top dog, they could get away with dictating to other groups and basically using other groups to do their dirty work. But nowadays, many other groups work as equals with LCN, not just as lackeys, runners, and hired muscle, but as equal competitors.

cos nostra is involved in tons of fields with virtually no competitors, the only field where there are competitors is the drug traffick
i think the mafia let this field a bit down coz in the states the sentences for this crime are too high not because of other competitors, people could get even 40 years there for drug it's not so worth, its not like italy where you take 7 years at most

i understand youre talking totally out of your ass lol

While I don't want to get into this pissing match, a few things...




Getting into who is most powerful is oldest and most futile of discussions on these OC forums. It can depend on any number of factors and which ones you choose to use. So I take it all with a grain of salt. And that includes the recent articles below which still put the Mafia at the top. In my view, while there are strong arguments that could be made for the LCN still being the top criminal organization in the greater New York area, that obviously can't be said in the rest of the country where it just doesn't have the same presence.

http://articles.cnn.com/2008-07-16/justice/fbi.mob_1_traditional-mob-joseph-massino-crime-groups?_s=PM:CRIME

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/item_Sg70KTTLwQcQykvdx9ftrI

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704115404576096392318489246.html



Changing demographics have certainly been a big part of it, though more on the Italian end than on emerging ethnic groups. Italian-Americans entering the mainstream has led to the general attrition, in both quantity and quality, of the Mafia. This, along with law enforcement, has had a much bigger impact than that of rival crime groups.

Furthermore, except for the drug trade, it's a stretch to say that the mob "has" to work with other crime groups. Like the old days, it more often than not chooses to for mutual profit. And one thing that still differentiates the New York families from other groups in the city is that the Italians are not as geographically confined in terms of ethnic neighborhoods. That's probably been the one upside for the mob in being Americanized.



Again, with the drug trade, this is often true. But where it still maintains a significant presence, especially New York, the mob has been able to keep control of it's staple rackets like gambling and loansharking (which bring in millions over all). And, while the mob may partner with Russians in a stock scam or use Albanians as muscle for robberies or collections, it's not like it needs help from other groups to make a sweetheart contract between a developer and a mobbed up union or run their sports betting operations.

I beg to differ. The Genovese, Gambino's and Bonnano's have strong ties to Sicily. So if you consider 60% to be very few then I guess you are correct.

I think you are just butt hurt because you are not Italian but grew up with many Italians and were always jealous of them because they could relate to the movies and TV shows and you couldn't. So deep down what you are really saying with comments like "street gangs are more powerful " and "no one fears the mafia anymore" is " I'm superior to those Italian guys who picked on me when I was younger" and trying to convince yourself that "I'm not intimidated anymore by the Italian bullies who picked on me when I was younger"

yes they are still in new york and a couple of other cities, if you think they are not the top dogs in new york youre talking out of your ass no matter you live there and me not
of course they are much less strong than they used to be in the past but being the biggest priority in some areas it means they are the strongest there i don't think fbi would be so interested in going after them if they were a bunch of nobody like you claim [/quote]

Yes, in New York LCN is still strong. New York is one of the last areas where LCN is a big force. But they've lost a lot of strength and influence, partly due to law enforcement crackdowns and partly because of the shifting demographics and emergence of other ethnic criminal groups. I never said they were a nobody; I said they are not the top criminal force anymore. If the mob was so big and bad, they would own and run all the major moneymaking rackets and share profits with nobody. But it's not like that. The LCN has to work with other groups; or, on a smaller scale, focus on small gambling and loansharking operations within their own boroughs. [/quote]

Small gambling and loansharking? Some families run huge operations, the biggest in the country and the laws are tougher on all syndicates now days, not just the mafia. Look at the gang stats posted by NickyScarfo- Gangs were at there peak in the early-mid 90's and have declined steadily. It much harder for all criminals now day and I don't know why you people are acting as though the cops and prosecutors only use new laws, new forensics and other new technology ect on the mafia and when it comes to other criminals they are only use 1950's technology and procedures.
Also the mafia has always worked with others so your comment that they are now forced to work with other groups because they are so weak is moot. I guess your not up on your mob history or you would know that's exactly why Lucky Luciano killed his boss, because his boss didn't want to work with other ethnics. [/quote]

Wrong! Luciano wanted to work with other ethnic groups because it was the best way to maximize profits. That was then. Today, La Cosa Nostra is forced to work with others as a way to "stay in the game" so to speak. There are too many emerging crime competitors for LCN to have a monopoly. They have to work with others mainly because LCN is no longer the absolute top dog. IF they were the top dog, they could get away with dictating to other groups and basically using other groups to do their dirty work. But nowadays, many other groups work as equals with LCN, not just as lackeys, runners, and hired muscle, but as equal competitors. [/quote]

Actually I'm right. Give me one example where the mob was "forced" to work with another ethnic group.

I grew up in Southern California; I don't think I ever came across an Italian. Now, Asians and Latinos are another story.

But back to you. You obviously have this romantic vision of the Mafia as being some sort of noble, honorable organization to be worshipped and fascinated by. That's your perogative to think that way of course, but you are about as deluded as they come. You sound like a elementary school kid arguing with his best friend over which super hero is more powerful, but in your case, your super hero is The Mafia!
You must either not be Italian and therefore not qualified to be in the mafia, or maybe you are Italian but don't have the wherewithal (and the anti-social tendencies) to be a made mafia member. Either way you have some sort of deep-seated fascination with the mob. Alas, to each his own!

and you obvioulsy know nothing about mafia and east coast you talk from the heart of street gangs...
you compared the losangeles family with the new york one lmao

Come on, guys .

i think this topics gone a bit off track.

its been like this forever. m2w always just sucks me into an argument. i cant resist

five felonies this arguments moved onto the ny gang territory thread.

I said New York Mafia was going the way of the Los Angeles Mafia. I didn't compare the two. Just the end result. Learn to read more critically. Take you time, slow down, and try to ingest what you read.

And, you don't have to grow up in or live in New York to know a lot about the New York LCN.

You can do research from anywhere; you can read from anywhere.

The West Coast's last mob bust was like '88-'92. And '92 was when those guys were sentenced, tying up legal system with excellent attorneys.

It will be decades before the NY mob is even remotely resembling the L.A. mob, which is defunct I might add.

The last significant case involving anyone from the LA mob was when Bobby Panaro (who was actually from Buffalo), Steve Cino, and others were indicted for the Herbie Blitzstein murder in Las Vegas in 1997. Jimmy Caci was busted a few years after that for conspiracy involving counterfeit traveler's checks.

Forgot about Blitzstein.

I read a really good article in a British magazine about an undercover Fed who worked with the Vegas mob, well whatever remenants of it in the late 90's around Blitzstein's death,
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2003/nov/01/weekend.clarelongrigg

Yeah, I believe that was part of "Operation Thin Crust" by the FBI in the 1990's.

Which is why your IP address shows you are in New Jersey right? Let me guess. You are just there on work related business right?

Anyway back to the topic at hand. There is a big difference in an "associate" of a 1% club than of a mafia family in that a much higher % of biker associates are legit people with real 9-5 jobs. Where is live the 1% club was called "Saintans Choice" before they patched over to the HA and at their parties there were more Toyota plant employees than outlaw bikers who's criminal resume consists of smoking weed. Granted I am sure there are some mob associates who are not necessarily criminals but I think generally to be a mob associate one has to be more dedicated to a criminal lifestyle than to be considered a 1% associate.

I'm in Southern California.

My opinion :
Is the American Mafia still strong in New York in sophisticated criminal activities ?

Yes, in those fields they even have a monopoly.

Are they still the top in drug trafficking or extortion in NYC ?

No, they have received far too much competition in these fields. Russians, Albanians, Chinese, Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, African-Americans, Jamaicans, Koreans,...have agressively muscled in on these activities.

The American Mafia will still be strong in NYC for a long time, but in Detroit, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Tampa,...they are dying out. Sad but true.
In the West Coast and the South organized crime is controlled by Mexicans, Chicanos and other Central Americans, Rednecks, African-Americans, Chinese, Southeast Asians and Armenians. The influence the Mafia has there, is neglible.
Florida ? It's all Cuban, Colombian, Haitian and Redneck stuff going on down those parts.
The Patriarca family used to be big in New England, but nowadays the Irish are still stronger in that area ( I'm sure ).

Some people may find this highly unpleasant, but really the only area where the Italian-American mafia still has a lot of influence is the NYC area.

in extortions i think they are still big and other groups are little or no involved in it
in the drugs i think in new york theyre still on the top
in new jersey they are very strong i dont know where you read theyre dying over there when 20% of people is italian and 6-7 families active there
i think in the north-east and south florida is still quite strong
at national level i think it's the single strongest organized crime group

nyc, new jeresy, philly, boston, and chicago all have a strong presence. And a couple of other areas have smaller presences than the other cities i listed. They're not big on drugs but extortion is still a big thing for the mob

Extortions...only within their own community. Other ethnic groups extort their own community.
The Mafia the top guys in NYC when it comes to drugs ? Not by a long shot. Albanians and Chinese have much better connections for heroin, cocaine is much more handled by Hispanics and Blacks, Meth is controlled by Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs,...What's left for the Mafia ?
They may be still strong in New Jersey yes, it was wrong to say their dying over there. But the DeCavalcante family had to deal with a massive blow.
The Mafia isn't strong at all in South Florida. The only city they where strong was Tampa, but there has been no news on them for a long period. Not because of the so called 'secretive' way of doing business. The Tampa mob has always been relatively small and it is said they now have completely fallen in the shadow of other criminal gangs.
The Patriarca family may still be relatively strong, but the strongest in Boston ? I really don't think so. Someone I talked with ( who himself was Italian ) agreed that the Irish are still stronger in Boston than the Italians. Eventhough the Irish themselves aren't major players in the USA anymore.

For some it may be a bitter pill to swallow, but the American Mafia isn't what it used to be anymore. In a lot of areas they are dying, in others they are already dead, in other areas they still are strong ( northeast, Chicago,...). But they have completely lost the almost monopoly position the once had.

as far as florida is concerned, all five families have crews in south florida, with the genovese and gambino families stil very influential. miami is where most of the action is anyways, not tampa, although the gambino family has pretty much taken over what was left of that family and have a presence there. as far as boston is concerned, the irish might have been top dogs in years past, but now? not likely as even with all the shit the patriarca family has been through, they are still much more organized than the what little is left of the winter hill gang.

i think you downsize the mafia too much and hype other groups too m uch, i don't see a single new criminal group in the states even close to the mafia of even 20 years ago
that's coz i say i think the italian mob is still the most powerful at national level although in many part of the country is not even present
but most of the other groups are just local and their influence is limited to a city or a neighbourhood
i doubt for example that blood and crips or mexican gangs have any sort of cooperation national-wide, they just operate at local level

The guy I talked to said that Irish stuff is still more prevalent in Boston than Italian organized crime. But the Italians might be smarter.
I think as far as drug trafficking goes the Mafia isn't very strong in Miami.
Now when you talk about racketeering, then yes the Mafia is the top.

I never said there will be one new group that will be as influential as the Mafia has ever been. It's just that a lot of different criminal groups have muscled in on the drug and arms trade especially. None of those groups have a monopoly position over this, but they all want to have a piece of the pie.
But I think that the old American Mafia is beginning to show its signs of aging. Like Irish-American OC has greatly diminished or Jewish-American OC has almost completely disappeared, I'm beginning to think the the American Mafia will be going down the same road in the next 25 years or such. There's no denying in the fact that a lot of families aren't very active anymore or that even the membership of the more relatively powerful Mafia groups has fallen dramatically ( take a look at the Outfit for example).
I agree that the other groups are mostly local and they have a limited influence. And as far as 'homegrown' American OC goes, the Mafia may still be the strongest even though Biker Gangs, African-American OC ( not talking about lame gangs consisting of 12-year olds, I'm talking about the real deal) and White Supremacist and Chicano Prison Gangs are gaining strenght in their areas.
And in terms of labor unions, racketeering,...yes the Mafia is still the one and only. But drug and weapons trafficking ? I really don't think they still have a lot to say in those departments.

concerning drug trafficking you're right that the mafia is little involved today although i think in new york and other areas is still quite involved
i also think they sure have connection with montreal and canada concerning drugs

it's what i say, the mafia is probably still the strongest group at national level although much weaker than the past

definitely still number 1. They're stronger than what you're saying

drugs are to risky for the mob anyway

The Mexican Mafia in the United States can easily overpower Cosa Nostra in the next ten years. The money they can make each week would make the Italians look like fools.

Thats where most of the money is. The more someone leaves their comfort zones and take risks, the more money you can ultimately pull in.

Not trying to start anything, but that JasonAnthony guy was a complete tool. Everyone knows the mafia doesn't wield the power it used to, however in terms of the East Coast (New York, Jersey especially) there's no doubt they're number one.

The Mexicans will not over power them. Maybe in the southwest but nowhere else.

The South Nicky. Aside from South Florida the mob has no presence in the south. Mexican Cartels are huge in those areas

if you mean the mexican mafia prison gang located in south california no, if you mean the cartels it's another matter but they are not an homegrown criminal group i think their target is just supplying american drug market but not to infiltrate the territory and most of money come back to mexico

yeah cartels and us mob are 2 different things

The activities of the Mexican cartels are mostly ( I say 'mostly') limited to supplying narcotics. They are the importers, middle men are La Eme, Aryan Brotherhood, Hells Angels, MS13,...who in turn sell it to smaller groups.
Dixie Mafia, Black Guerilla Family, Gangster Disciples,...mostly work with Colombians.
Neither the Mexicans nor the Colombians are almighty, eventhough Mexican cartels control the importation of narcotics in the Southwest and a good chunk of the deep South, while Colombians mostly control the importation in the Southeast.

The power of the 'homegrown' groups ( not including the more recent Albanian, Russian, Dominican, Cuban, Asian,...arrivals) can be divided as such : Italian-American OC is the most powerful in the northeast and small parts of the midwest, while everything west and south is divided between Chicanos, African-Americans and White Southerners. This concerning 'homegrown' OC.

i'm quite agree about it
homegrown groups are almost always the strongest and i doubt any of the recent groups is even equal to them
most of the chinese groups could be called homegrown groups anyway since they have been in the states a very long time

The Chinese have been in the USA since the 1840's where they developped the Tongs. But most Tongs aren't that deeply involved in criminal activity anymore. Most Chinese gangs in the USA are mainly composed of first- or second-generation immigrants from Hong Kong, Taiwan and Malaysia. Also a lot of ethnic Chinese from Vietnam ( the Hoa people are so-called 'ethnic Chinese, even though they have both Chinese and a small degree of Cham ancestry). That's why I count the Chinese groups in the USA among the 'foreign' groups

are triads and yakuzu even that big in the U.S.? If they are im guessing west coast. But i doubt anything anywhere else except in maybe some chinatowns

It's funny how we are arguing over which criminal organization is strongest. It's just like schoolyard kids arguing over which superhero is strongest. La Cosa Nostra obviously has a lot of "fans" in the house; that whole romanticised thing about the mob makes a lot of people regard that organization as being somehow more deserving of respect and worship than many of these other criminal organizations without the mob's history and past.

Triads and Triad-affiliated gangs are extremely active in the Chinatowns ( especially the one in New York) and in the West Coast ( especially in San Francisco). Like I said before, they are mostly composed of newer arrivals from the Chinese community rather than being composed of descendants of the Chinese that lived in the USA hundred years ago.
Yakuza has a presence on the West Coast, but they mostly let Hmong gangs do the dirty work. Apparently they struck a partnership with these gangs.

As far as the drug trade goes in new york its a mixture of dominican, mexican ,jamaican and puerto rican drug smuggling groups that are bringing in cocaine and heroin from their countries and then selling it either wholesale or packaging it up ready for retail to their own gangs or someone else's. I think that the dominicans are the most prevalent out of these groups in the north east. You then have some african american suppliers that are shipping cocaine from the west coast and places like atlanta and texas, or they are buying it off local dominicans in manhattan and then setting up pipelines to other areas of sale like upstate new york, these pipelines are often street gang affiliated.Then you got albanians that are involved with smuggling marijuana from canada, they have also been involved with heroin and cocaine trafficking as well as synthetic drugs, so they are sort of all over the place but none the less very active in the drug trade.Asian gangs vary from being fringe to heavy players in the drug trade, vietnamese gangs are heavily involved with grow ops not to sure about other asian groups. La cosa nostra drug activity by most recent examples is cocaine, marijuana, ecstacy and pescription pills, however the major difference between them and the other groups is that their drug activity is not continuous for example when a mafia connected drug ring is taken down the chances of another mobster coming in and replacing it are slim. This is one of the reasons why they are no longer on top the drug trade anymore.

I don't know what that Jason guy was saying but people like that appear here every once in a while . There was one guy claiming inside knowledge on the outfit saying they're only second to the Genovese and Tony Accardo was never boss etc.

I just wanted to add another group who have a large influence in drug smuggling which would be the Nigerian enterprises that smuggle and traffick heroin.

Not sure what you are talking about. But don't get all B** hurt because somebody actually makes the case for your beloved Mafia/La Cosa Nostra no longer being the top criminal dog in, god forbid, the East Coast or elsewhere. If they are still the top dog in NYC, ok, good, great, you get a cookie and a pat on the back! But geesh, don't take your hero worship so far!

With extortion (the old fashioned baseball bat variety) if you look at recent mafia cases it seems like its mostly linked to loan sharking with some incidences of random businesses or people getting shaken down. The gambino bust involving the sex trafficking in 2010 had a few shake downs and some severe assaults on people. Chinatown gangs on the other hand are shaking evryone and their cousins down from businesses legal or otherwise to just flat out kidnapping and holding people for ransom. Latino gangs are known for shaking down local businesses and vendors in their area. Theres probably alot of lcn gang members that still engage in violent shakedowns when opportunity affords but i don't think theres an actual racket in an area where theres like a weekly collection or something. Im only talking about the actual verbal and physical act where someones walking up to someone and demanding money off of them.

I don't know if you're talking to me or Joe but if it is me i wasn't talking about you i didn't even read you comments. I couldn't care less if LCN are the top criminaal dog ( as you call it ) i'm not from the US nevermind the Northeast. Imo you're the only one who sounds butthurt.

do you have example of chinese and latino gangs involved in systematic extortions systems?
i also think lcn in the states is not involved in systematic extortions like the mafia in italy, but i think it's still involved although to a lesser extent

You can watch any documentary on chinatown gangs and its mentioned.
http://hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Patterns_of_Chinese_Gang_Extortion.pdf
http://www.gorillaconvict.com/green-dragons-2/
http://gothamist.com/2008/10/22/authorities_arrested_16_in_asian_or.php
http://www.streetgangs.com/news/051112_drug_extortion_lil_cycos

even though chinese gangs extort the majority of chinatown business it's just limited to a couple areas in ny, lcn is present in much more places
but i don't think there is any continuity time, it's more like a new gang formed starts extorting and replaced another previous one

whats the difference between one gang extorting a lot of people in one area and another gang extorting the same amount of people in multiple areas.

i highly doubt chinese gangs in chinatown extort more than lcn as a whole that's just speculation
i also bet there are several gangs in the bigger chinatowns not just one and they are not all related-eachother

Saying that they dont extort more than the lcn is just speculation on your part as well.

China town has many tongs that have been around since the 18th century and they often use the street gangs chinese, vietnamese, koreans or otherwise to collect debts, protection money, deal drugs. However these gangs often commit crimes for themselves as well.

Are the Tongs still really around ? I thought today's Chinese organized crime in the USA was mainly associated with immigrant Triads

There still around, but thers also alot of other groups swell such as the snake heads and triad societies as well as the home grown street gangs.

Heres a good article on how extensive they are.
http://www.gazettenet.com/2010/02/08/chi...c7179e8da=gnews

like i said in chinatowns there are several chinese groups, triads, tongs, street gangs, snake heads and even vietnamese, koreans, laotians gangs so the extortions are divided eventually among these gangs
that's coz i highly doubt chinese extortion racket in a couple of chinatowns is bigger than the lcn in the whole new york

'Laotian' gangs are in a lot of cases of Hmong origin, I doubt they are around in the northeast. The 'Vietnamese' are in the northeast mostly ethnic Hoa, Vietnamese of Han ethnicity but with a degree of Cham blood as well, so they've blended in with the Chinese gangs. Koreans may work with Chinese, but I thought that their mobs are mostly standalone crews.
Ethnic groups will always extort their own community. Chinese extort Chinese businesses, Albanians extort Albanian businesses, Russians extort Russian businesses, African-Americans extort African-American businesses,etc...
Extorting a business out of one's own community is suicide.
The power of the American Mafia are the labor unions. Outside of these rackets, they also only extort Italian-run businesses.

I dont think every different group in chinatown is involved in the extortion racket so its not gonna get divided up like that, it only probably one or two of the groups that get the money off of it, most likely the tongs and street gang enforcers. Also tongs and triads have been known to work together on a whole bunch of stuff such as drug trafficking and arms dealing. Snake heads specialise in people smuggling and sex trafficking. The street gangs are often used as muscle but they do their own thing as well such as robberies, drug dealing and arson.

you're right, that's why i think italian mafia is more involved in extortions since italian businessmen in new york are probably much more than other groups prone to extortion like russian or chinese

Sumthing like 1out of5 or 1out of6 inner city black gang members has snitched or bn n informant. They roll over left and right here and still run with the same people.its crazy