The Downfall Of La Cosa Nostra

I received a PM from one of the members here that basically asked me if and why the Mob is different than it was over 25 -30+ years ago. After replying to his PM i felt that his question was a good one that deserved to be posted and discussed on the boards. So without revealing who that member is who sent me the PM ( I'll leave it up to him to reveal himself in this topic if he chooses to do so) I am posting my reply to him :


Please keep in mind when writing my feelings about the mob, the Mafia and La Cosa Nostra that I in no way endorse, support, admire or hold in high esteem these people because they are really nothing more than punks, murderers, leaches and most of all cowards. Obviously by being a member of these boards I do have an interest in mob history as it has had a significant influence in the many laws that have been implemented in this country and therefore has infamously made it's place in part of history over the last century.

Is the mob anything like it was 25 - 30+ years ago? Of course not. Things seemed to change in the early 80's as the young turks began to "get away" from and disrespect the traditional mob cardinal rules that were put into place by La Cosa Nostra. The unwritten "honor" among thieves rules that were adhered to over the decades slowly began to erode because the young guns did not want to "work their way' up the ranks and instead began to take what they thought was the easy way up by disrespecting their bosses, flashing their wealth in the streets trying to impress those around them and acting like tough guys who were "all powerful" They wanted those around them to KNOW that they were connected and / or mobbed up. And in doing so they brought unneeded attention to the mob and the families. That unneeded attention gave the authorities the tools to eventually go after the mob. And because the authorities began to round up and build cases against these mobsters, it caused these flashy punks to begin to make deals and rat....which really caused the toppling of what was once a solid foundation for La Cosa Nostra.

Most, not all, but most of the "old timers" (again they like the young punks were nothing more than murdering cowards) acted differently. They did NOT seek outside attention. They remained humble in the public eye, made themselves appear as though they were church going family men ( can you spell Carlo Gambino? ). They frowned upon any kind of flashiness because they knew that it would only bring unneeded attention to this thing of theirs.

Of course their were the exceptions throughout the decaades.....Bugsy Siegel, Joe Colombo and John Gotti to name a few. But the "smart" mobsters, the real powerful people around them frowned upon and even warned these guys about their flashiness and attention seeking actions. Meyer Lansky and Charlie Lucky constantly warned Siegel. Carlo Gambino despised Joe Colombo's quest to bring equality to the Italian American community. Joe Armone and Neil Dellacroce continually scolded Gotti for his flashiness.

In my opinion things for the Mafia began to crack right after the death of Carlo Gambino. That crack began to grow even bigger with the death of Neil Dellacroce...and it really began to crumble when John Gotti came to power and basically challenged the federal government to try get him.

Of course Sammy Gravano was, in my opinion, the final wrecking ball that knocked La Cosa Nostra completely to the ground.

And in keeping with my feelings that it all began in the early 80's, there is no doubt that U.S Attorney Rudy Giuliani built the foundation that eventually dealt a striking blow to the mob because of his willingness to go after the mob and his ability to utilize the RICO statute in doing so.


So to simply answer the original question presented to me i a PM of "Is the mob anything like it was 25 - 30+ years ago?" In my opinion it is not due to the reasons that I stated above.

Good post and I fully agree with what you say.

I think that the first seeds that led to the Mafia decline was sown when its members started to value money over honor, loyalty and total obedience. Money corrupted the original values and rules that the Mafia was built upon.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think in Sicily, in the past, for the ordinary man, there was no other way to achieve status than by presenting himself as a most honorable man, rigorous, and just. This was the bolts in the ordinary Sicilian man and the worst insult to these men was to claim he was anything but just that.
Money was secondary and only a byproduct of power. When the Mafia adopted the American lifestyle it turned into an organization with a money first mentality at the expense of solid foundation of rules and values that once made it so strong.

A decreasing stream of potential recrutits already in the late 1960s and 1970s resulted in poor leadership in the 1980s and further. And the government´s fight against the Mafia with laws like RICO has proven very successful.
The last 20 years or so, the fight against the Mafia has brought numerous of turncoats, many upper echelon mobsters who had devastating testemonies to give.
And perhaps most importantly, tha Mafia today totally lacks political protection that kept them powerful in the past.

I also would like to mention the non existent Commission that for more than 50 years was the glue that held it all together.
The smaller Families outside of New York had all representatives on the Commission. When the Commission was no longer in function, it contributed vastly to their downfall.

I think there never was any honor in the mafia. Even the "traditionalist" mafiosi who opposed themselves to Totò Riina's Corleonesi didn't hesitate to kill women and children. Also, drugs have started to be sold much time before the "new" mafia came to power.

Great post, DC. I just want to add that law enforcement should get its due as well. If the RICO Act and today's technology were around fifty years ago, things would have been a lot different.

Well, according to our standards killing a woman or a child is an awful crime. But let´s not forget the mentality of these men. They killed not because of cruelty but mostly because of pragmatical reasons. In their set of minds, nobody is immune from punishment.

Yes, but the children were mostly killed not because they had actually done something, but because they had seen something they shouldn't have or because the murderers wanted to hurt their relatives through their deaths. It's not like they punished them for something they had actually done. So, in my opinion, this is dishonorable even according to medieval standards.

I forget where I read it or heard it maybe on here thought it was interesting that the feds weren't smart enough to effectively use the rico law till about 10 or 15 years later.

The male children are killed for fear that some day they'll be men and they'll want vengeance. But you're right, there's no honor is killing a child. Ever.

Hey Pizzaboy I'm associated with "The Outfit" and thats not how things work!- DicknoseVET

The law went into effect in 1970, but wasn't used properly until the Commission Trial of 1986. After Giuliani and Blakey showed everyone how to use it effectively, it was the beginning of the end.

I agree, I think the "real" decline started in the late 70s. Also, after the French Connection was busted, the mob became even more involved in the distribution of narcotics, which brought more attention of law enforcement. The same happened with the mob's activities in Las Vegas in the late 1970s. I think the downfall of the Cleveland syndicate was a symbolic starting point for the decline of the American Mafia.

Stop, Dicknose. You might be a wiseass, but that guy is outright fucking crazy .

Dawlin, I agree with you. There´s no honor in killing innocent women and children.
But this is the mind set of the Sicilian mafioso. And they still consider themselves as men of honor even after comitting such terrible crimes. They follow their rules. Not our rules. The follow their laws. Not our laws.

i think so too...on the cleveland family...they were really the first family to start to crumble...the whole danny green thing, and with lonardo .....the first true underboss to flip...not sammy the bull.

I thought the American costa nostra does not kill innocent people, family members and people in law enforcement?

It did happened a few times.Maybe more than just a few times but i know only for few cases.

Like for example?

Pete Chiodo's sister and the "wrong" Nicky Guido to name just a couple.

I have never been to the USA, but from what I read it does indeed seem the American mafia is more careful in such matters than the Italian one. Still, there were some cases like “Gaspipe” Casso ordering hits on relatives of suspected informants, Carmine Persico ordering a hit on the prosecutor Aronwald and mistakenly killing his father or Salvatore Avellino ordering a hit on the businessman Kubecka who opposed himself to the mafia and provided evidence for the trials.

Oh uh I remember. I read the gaspipe book and uh that was terrible!

Check this out :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pImY6C4BGSw

Yes. And there was a shootout in the Ridgewood section of Queens where a police officer where shot to detah. Genovese member Fritzy Giovanelli was tried for that but freed.
But you are correct. The American Mafia is generally much different when it comes to these kind of things than the Sicilian Mafia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx8eGXOllsU

Whole this doc is about rules and how they respect/disrespect them them today.

How they botched that prosecution---twice---is beyond me. That poor dead cop's family can blame his useless partner for that entire mess.

Yes, it´s beyond me too.

In my opinion, the most clamorous case of the mafia attacking the law enforcement in America is the case of Rosario Borgio in Akron, Ohio, who launched a terroristic campaign against the police in 1918 after he wasn't able to buy them for some reason (very strange considering the fact he managed to buy local politicians).

Very good find, Strax. I haven´t seen this before.
Does anyone know who this "Tony" (ex Bonanno soldier) is?

The one they tried to kill,because he didnt want to "kick up" and stealing ?

We know that doc is from 2007-2009 that period in the doc they say mafia earns 100 billions $,what u think is it true ?

"In 2002 the FBI estimated that the Mafia earns $50–$90 billion a year"

I also want to know who tony is.He sounds interesting.He didnt want to kick up lol

I think that's overstating things. Yes, Gravano did a lot of damage to the Gambino family, as well as some additional damage to the other families. But it's not really accurate to single one rat out as "the final wrecking ball" that knocked the LCN out.

If we're using that analogy, the LCN is still standing, albeit severely weakened and crumbling. And the wrecking ball would be a combination of general attrition and RICO hitting it over and over again. But it's a slow process. And is still going on.

really? it's seem too much, if it's true the mafia is still very strong in the states

That may have been referring to the combined profits of the 4 major crime syndicates in Italy - Cosa Nostra, 'Ndrangheta, Camorra, and Sacra Corona Unita - not the U.S. mob. More recent estimates have been even higher.

Personally, I take all estimates regarding OC profits with a big dump truck of salt. Even the official figures often don't agree and are all over the place.

if the sources talk about mafia in italy the estimate are even bigger, even more than 100 billions a year, probably 150-200

Gross profit as opposed to net, whole-sale vs. retail and figures inflated to the potential maximum for every bust; this seems to be the norm for most reported seizures and arrests.



Of course DC stated his own opinion, but Id have to agree more with IvyLeague's. If any one trend could be singled out, the general attrition theory is the one that holds the most weight IMO. That and the RICO Act have had far more impact on LCn as a whole than any one rat or informant.

I actually agree with this. The reported 'Ndrangheta profits alone are astronomical; combined with those of the Sicilians and Neapolitans the figures are insane. A diplomatic estimate of Calabrian mafia profits was rated as approx. 3% of the Italian GDP.

http://www.theguardian.pe.ca/News/Canada...kiLeaks-cable/1

any idea how much could earn the mafia in the states a year? are there fbi estimates?

In 2002 the FBI estimated that the Mafia earns $50–$90 billion a year - This is for the US mob.

Read here http://www.cnbc.com/id/37593438

Same on WIkipedia

And same here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ2SmvPdMs0&feature=related - 7:50,but on the video on 7:50 it say 100 billion.

I dont know if its true or not,

in italy and sicily it makes something like 160 billion either iin pound or euros. but its 8% of italys gdp

if it's true the mafia in the states earn so much it's still very strong

True,maybe they dont have manpower but if this is true they have money and they are involved a lot

That can't possibly be true. I imagine combined net profits for all made guys and associates is probably about $1 billion. That would work out an average annual income for every member and associate of about $100,000 - and that's for a very high end estimate of 10,000 members and associates combined (i.e., 10-15 associates for every made guy). And I wouldn't be surprised if it were a fair bit less than that.

Ralph Vito Perna – capo in the Jersey crew. Was arrested in December 2007 with Joseph DiNapoli and Matthew Madonna. The Jersey crew ran an illegal gambling operation that earned approximately $2.2 billion overa 15-month period. The crew also worked with New Jersey correction officers and members of Nine Trey Gangster, a set, or subgroup, of the Bloods street gang. The Jersey crew used Bloods members to smuggle illegal drugs and prepaid cell phones into the New Jersey state prisons

Plus the other 400 mil gambling ring which one of the ruling panel capos were involved in. and the amount of money they make on superbowl

I'm aware of those big gambling rings, but those figures are likely inflated. Second, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the figures given are for the gross revenues, not net profit.

A gambling ring with net profits of 2 billion dollars would have to have gross revenues of like 20 billion. Which, for example, would have to have a structure of, say, 2 million people wagering $10,000 each. Color me skeptical.

yeah if there was that much money floating around how come those two members felt the need to work with the bloods?

Exactly, Ivan. If the Feds pick up a wiretap of one guy winning a thousand on the Giants and one guy losing a thousand on the 49ers, they write it up as a two thousand dollar wager. It doesn't even matter to them that the bookies only see ten percent of the losing side of that bet (the vig). But it makes for good copy in the papers, so they report it however they want.

so what about the gambino mobilephone fraud which made 650 million in six year or something? plenty more mobsters will be getting into these sophisticated crimes!

Well, that was kind of an anomaly. Just because that happened at that scale one time a decade ago doesn't mean it's common enough to add up to forty billion dollars annual revenue for the mob.

No one is saying that they're not making money anymore. Ivan only pointed out that gambling numbers are ALWAYS inflated by the Feds. And he's 100% right.

As far as "plenty more mobsters getting into sophisticated crimes." I'm sure a few of them will, but most of them are imbeciles who will rely on the tried and true (gambling and shylocking).

I'm skeptical also, big difference between revenue and profit and also collecting on all that money. Seems like a big stretch there are so many high stake gamblers.

i was just making a point. and yh it might of happened but who says there something making more money in those types frauds now? i think they would be making an absolute max of 7 to 10 bill. ABSOLUTE max

On October 1, 2009 DiNapoli was indicted in a racketeering scheme that made approximately $400 million from gambling, loansharking, gun trafficking and extortion

Salvatore "Tore" LoCascio along with Richard Martino, Salvatore introduced the Gambinos to online pornography operations that earned the family up to $350 million per year

Agree its about 5-10 billions per year.No way its 100 billions or something since mob in italy earns over 100 billion with 20,000+ made members and 300,000+ associates.

gambling numbers reported by the FBI/authorities are ridiculous. If anyone ran a network of books that was netting what the FBI claims than Steve Wynn would probably personally make that person an executive

like everyone said above money passing through a book doesn't equal money made by a book. I even find some of those numbers, like the ones in the billions, to be obscene if we're talking about total wagers. thats crazy to me. but it is a crazy world so who knows

probably the american mob is close to 20 billions a year at most

heck no, i would say DEF less than $1B and prob less than $100 million...

I am hesitant to take them at face value as well. Even just one billion dollars in total bets (not just profits) would require some crazy combination of bettors, the most even distribution being something like roughly 32,000 gamblers betting 32,000 dollars each. Think of the logistics behind that.

Now, if the wagering were done on the internet with computers somehow, really huge quantities of bettors over a massive geographic area (made possible by the internet and some kind of gambling software) would be feasible I guess.



Now I think you're going too far in the other direction. $100 million would only require every member and associate to have profits of about $15,000 - $20,000 per year. No one would join the mob if the pay were that crappy.

About $1 billion a year for every member and associate combined is probably a pretty safe estimate.

1 billion a year is too little, come on
in italy there are single members who have assets close to 2-3 billions, single members who earn more than 100 millions a year
it's impossible the 5 families earn less than a single italian mobster in italy
i bet the bonanno's alone earn more than 1 billion a year

I dunno man. You figure between 5000 and 10,000 members and associates total (and that's generously allowing for between like 7 and 15 associates per member), they'd have to be averaging $100,000-$200,000 in profits every year for them to clear a billion all together. The situation in Italy is a lot different than it is for street guys in the USA. It's a lot harder for them to make huge amounts of money as anything too ostentatious would get smacked down by the feds right quick.

And this isn't even taking into account all the members who are inactive or in jail, which could be maybe even a fourth (or more?) of the total membership.

there are people involved in the pizza connection who are members of the lcn families in the states, i bet these people alone make more than 1 billionsa year between money laundering, drugs etc.

I really don't want to get into this most futile of mob-related subjects but you are going to far the other way. The entire American mob making less than $100 million?

It also depends on how you want to add the figures up. For example, would the total profits from John S-------'s auto dealerships be included or just the money he himself made. There's any number of ways one can figure it.

i thought that the mob made around four to five billion on superbowl either sales or net profit ?

IMHO the large number of rats is actually a symptom of the RICO effect, and not an independent factor in and of itself.

Valachi flipping didn't trigger a flood of made guys ratting; this phenomenon started in full force after RICO prosecutions were heavily implemented.

Italian-American assimilation and mainstreaming was what destroyed the smaller families IMHO. The RICO prosecutions just provided the coup de grace for what was already dying out. I also think (and I may be in the minority here) that some of the smaller families were centered on one strong personality, and when that person (such as, for example, Balistrieri) was out of the picture the family lost their cohesion that person's leadership and authority provided. This wouldn't be possible with the huge families in New York, obviously.

I forgot to mention the billion dollar gambling ring was an offshore gambling website so there could be a chance that made humdred of millions or even a billion but i guess we will find out when they eventually go to trial

In his book, Five Families, Selwyn Raab cited a study done by the NYPD in the early 1990's that said about $1 billion was wagered with mob bookies on the Superbowl in the Tri-State area; with the profit margin being around 15% - or $150 million. Exactly how they came up with that, I don't know.

One thing's for sure, as others have mentioned, much like when it comes to narcotics figures, both law enforcement and the press like to cite gross, rather than net, figures.

Valid points also. Well put.

Though I would lump assimilation under the general attrition theory, as one of the factors feeding into it. The effects of said attrition on the smaller, more unilaterally led groups was pretty much devestating, and even on the Five pretty formidable. Moreso then any government led opposition or operation for sure.

On October 1, 2009 DiNapoli was indicted in a racketeering scheme that MADE approximately $400 million from gambling, loansharking, gun trafficking and extortion

Salvatore "Tore" LoCascio along with Richard Martino, Salvatore introduced the Gambinos to online pornography operations that EARNED the family up to $350 million per year

So no way its less than $100 million its more than 1 billion but we can only discuss about it.

Once again, that was a estimate on gross wagers over the period of the investigation. In other words, how much money was bet. Same for the $2 billion in wagers that had been cited in the 2007 Lucchese bust in Jersey. And even then, all of these wagers are probably going through the same offshore wirerooms which are involved in several operations with different families. Not to mention the fact that when we're talking about how much money they "made," the net profits from bookmaking - as long as the books are balanced - are about 10% or so.



The Locascio crew ran two scams from 1996 until the time they were indicted in 2003 - phone cramming and internet scams advertising free trials for phone sex, online adult websites, etc. and then adding additional charges on the credit cards of millions of buyers. The total take was estimated to be upwards of $750 million over the 7 years. In short, while they made a lot of money, it was one of those one-off things. Not something that's still going every year.

could be something big happening now all we now. doesnt the gambino control all of the drug sales in queens because i heard that on a report?

Well, on the whole, the business of the mob continues. Just not those specific scams by that crew. And, yes, during the big bust in January 2011, it was alleged the Gambinos controlled a lot of the drug sales in Queens.

yh. we are never gonna know how much they make but its defiantly more then hundred million. i thought they did/do. wasnt that mob bust more like quantity not quality like the gambino bust in 08?

The Gambino family at its height made 500 million a year. This was in the 1970s and 1980s. It's reasonable to think that they nowadays still make at least 100 million or more.

yh 500 mil inthe 70s and eighties but that now would be like 800 mil today so i think they cwould be earning 300 mil or something. how much you think genovese makes?

Inflation also certainly plays a role, but they are kicked out of a lot of rackets by the feds. Still, I don't see any reason why both the Gambino and Genovese families would not make at least 100 million a year, maybe even hundreds of millions.

100million a year? That's a lot of money. Does all that money go the boss? Aren't the soldiers poor?

yh thanks. i knew that was a good point to come out with haha. its garbage and fish marlet there out of business but construction waterfront their still deeply involved in. because of loop holes in waste their in recycling i heard

no? i think the boss gets ten percent of everyones take. not sure what happens with the underboss or consig

I think there are no rules set in stone, all made guys are kicking up certain amounts depending on the family, the bosses etc. Everyone has different situations.

It still pays to be a boss, if you can keep out of the spotlights. You will get a yearly income in the millions.

Im talking mob-tied businesses pure profits not revenues. I feel that often times these articles will say "this bookmaking operation made $2 billion or $400 million, etc". let's be honest if they made that amount i.e. they must have taken home each one of these guys tens of millions you would be hearing from the feds trying to seize all these millions of dollars, cars, boats, businesses, etc. These mob guys (most) aren't that super smart to hide it all from the feds. Personally, I just dont believe it. I like to see cold hard facts.

Ivy League was talking pure profits too. 100 million year total net profits would be the kind of money the mob would make if every single member and associate worked at McDonald's. If that were the case the financial incentive for organized crime would evaporate. Remember, these guys are still willing to commit murder occasionally to keep the mob viable as an ongoing concern. I doubt if they would do that for the equivalent of a full time minimum wage job.

the incentive is always there, guys wants a quick buck and have done crimes all their lives thats all they know the formal economy is not a place for them nor would they probably want to be there anyways, lets say my number $100 million is correct and lets say I divide that by 1000 (made guys only not associates - i know im being generous with this high number) that would be $100K a year which is a decent (im sure they want more) if there were 1000 made guys running around. Well now obviously this number fluctuates greatly, Bosses make more than Capos who make more than soldiers generally speaking. I still stand by my number.

Oh if it's for made guys only then you and I agree! I was talking about a billion in net profits for everyone. I figured about a billion for 10,000 total members and associates, with every member/associate averaging 100K (with some a lot more and some a lot less).

I thought you meant 100 million for all mobsters (made and unmade) combined. That would work out to 10K - 20K per year for each member/associate on average, which is comparable to a minimum wage job.

They have been run out of some rackets by the feds but other rackets like internet porn have been gained. The FBI estimates the 5 families alone profits in he billions, not gross profits.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/life/n...bs-big-business

yep we agree

I have no idea what kind of funds they really make, and I'll agree that nobody in their "right mind" would join the mob for that... just don't count out all the cowboys that would probably do it for free just to say or think they were in the mob.

A few of them probably would .

a few of them prob don't make much more than someone with an 9 or 10 dollar an hr job.

True, but I bet the total hours spent actually working at crimes is way less than full time. So it might work out to work/time ratio of like 50-100 bucks an hour even for the bottom feeders. Make a 5k score, live off that for like 3 months without doing anything else, etc etc.

People will do all sorts of things to avoid actually working.

yeah thats what i was getting at that not every score is a big million dollar gig and your only as good as the scams you come up with........you just summed it up a little bit better
thanks ivan

If I remember right, back in the big Gambino bust in 2008, it was said the administration as a whole got 10%. But, as said, it likely varies. I think I recall Castellano demanded 10% for himself.

ah is that how it works? so what does the captain get?

This is so true. Sometimes it's actually less work to just get a job .

A capo can also ask for a share, it depends on the person.

Being in the administration, or a top position is still lucrative. 10% might be a couple of million tax free dollars each year.

Another factor to keep in mind is though even the income of a mobster might seem like small potatoes compared to a lot of legitimate professions... it is actually pretty damn good money for high school dropouts. They would be uncompetitive in just about any other labor market situation, except for minimum wage type positions.

so is it ten percent for the admin or ten percent each? what if its a ruling panel? are they doing for free or what?

If train A leaves the station going 60 miles per hour and train B leaves one hour later going 85 miles per hour, how long will it take train B to catch up with train A?

one thing you have to keep in mind is that a lot of these guys have legitimate business that bring in a lot of money. from the capo regime down the some of the more established associates and soldiers, they have some very viable construction,trucking, real estate, pornography, staffing, restuarant business, etc. Some of us in Cleveland have real estate, staffing, construction businesses that bring in on the upwards of 50 million per year, when you're a capo kicking up 7.5 to 10%, in some cases 5%, that is a lot of money. If you family has 10 to 20 capos with viable legit businesses plus all the side money, it doesnt take long to add up. With the new york guys, I remember some of the guys saying that paul had some type of chicken slaughter distribution plant that was a major operation, others have car dealerships, those are 50 to 100 million a year ventures.

^^^ I've been saying this very same thing forever. Nobody cares. Nobody listens. If you don't have a legitimate business these days you won't do a damn thing.
I was about to say it one more time in this thread but decided to go with my train post instead. Meh.

a long time

There ya go. Here's a cookie. lol

Which was a very intellectual post. Very constructive and well thought.

Actually it was!

If people would only read more and post less, they'd find that the repetitive questions they keep asking are actually already answered multiple times on the board. Read more. Post less.

"Otherwise, it's just masturbation." ---- George Costanza

Aint that that truth!

Ya know, I just see all these questions and threads opened up and I know the answers are here; just requires using a search button. It takes all my restraint to not go off on people (plus I don't like sand, so there's that).
But whatever, I got PMS, I'm cranky, moody, bloated, my tits hurt. You know how it is, pizzaboy, no?

Yeah, I'm retaining a little water myself today. But then again, I drank three bottles of Riserva Ducale last night .

And you're right about the search feature. It's maddening to see the same threads over and over. But it's really no one's fault. You can't blame a new board member for not knowing about it.

if you add the legal or semi-legal earnings of the mob you'll get a lots more billions, it's not clear if the estimates of fbi include legitimate business among the earnings mob or illegal ones only

general attrition theory is valdi for small families like buffalo and others in new york the only cause is the rico and its effects (turncoats, heavy sentences, big busts etc.)
the mafia even today has not any lack of manpower in new york

LURK MOAR GUISE! Also, search function.



Yeah but compared to their size and strength 50, 40, even 30 years ago, attrition has had a very visible effect even on NY.

the downfall of ny family is because of rico law in the '80, i doubt general attrition has some faults in the downfall... still today whole district like staten island are over 50% italian

as of 2009, staten island was 35.7% italian (prob lower now)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staten_Island#Demographics

"Whites are the racial majority in Staten Island. Of the borough's 491,000 people, over 372,000 are white, which is over three-quarters (75.7%) of the population. Over 323,000 non-Hispanic whites reside in the borough, and they make up 65.8% of the population. The Caucasian population is largely Italian and Irish. Sizable communities of Germans, Russians, Albanians and Poles are present. There are over 175,000 Italian Americans living in Staten Island, and they make up over one-third (35.7%) of the population. Roughly 65,000 Irish Americans live in the borough, and they make up over one-eighth (13.2%) of the population. People of German, Russian, and Polish descent make up 5.7, 3.8, and 3.4% of the population, respectively."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Staten_Island

You've said that before, and people have disagreed before. Stick to Italy dude, at least you seem to know your shit there.

it was 40% and it's very big number since it's a whole district (450.000 or so)



i don't care who agrees or disagrees, i think the rico law is the principal cause by far in new york at least
and what are u talking about? you live in australia you know nothing about the states

And, as I've said before, there is also the general attrition of quality. Not just quantity.

OK, guys, let's stop World War III.

m2w, if somebody took the time to link the source of their information (as above) and you are arguing that the info is not true, would you please link YOUR source of information.

I know not to pull bullshit statistics out of my ass and have a sook when people call me on it.

Staten Island is still 44% Italian, the highest percentage of any county in the country

http://www.wikihow.com/Talk-Like-a-New-Yorker

^^wtf

your credibility is officially 0

Goddamn, thats the funniest thing Ive ever heard from you m2w. You do realise what you linked to right? You're going to use THAT as your source? And you have the nerve to bitch me out?

For the record, I think I'll go off the numbers gathered in the United States census, as cited on wikipedia, rather the wikihow page on "How To Talk Like A New Yorker" (that doesn't offer a single citation, I might add.)

I noticed how you tweaked your claim from "Over 50%" to "44%" Still wrong, but closer.

do u think wikipedia is more attendible? honestly, everyone could write stuff on wiky

Do you understand what a census is?

Do you understand how citations work?

Apparently not.

Im done arguing this point with you dude.

anyway even if it was 35% it's big number for a whole district of almost 500.000

lmaooooooooooooo

give it up dude

There are over 175,000 Italian Americans living in Staten Island, and they make up over one-third (35.7%) of the population. Roughly 65,000 Irish Americans live in the borough, and they make up over one-eighth (13.2%) of the population. People of German, Russian, and Polish descent make up 5.7, 3.8, and 3.4% of the population, respectively."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Staten_Island

Definitely if rico was about back in the day who knows who would have flipped. Gambino,Lucchese,Accardo who knows guys like that were never really tested.

'You know the hay-day... you know the 'Golden Age' or whatever of the mob. That's gone. And that's never coming back. And they have only themselves to blame. I think its drug-trafficking. And I think that ruined everything. You're looking at a minimum mandatory 35-to-life imprison. So guys started to rat on each other just so they could avoid prosecution.'
- Vincent Rizzo (1999)

I dont beleve drug trafficking started the downfall of Cosa Nostra Parisi.

Is that from the sopranos?

Yeah, first season, second episode, I think. The only one that started out with a scene before the opening theme and credits.

Great scene tool, "Like you were ever in Paris Paulie." ........

"I went over for a blowjob. Your mom was working the bon bon concession at the Eiffel Tower."

damm i miss that show

You think the Royal Family had her whacked?

Sil, you hear what I told him? Told him I went over for a blowjob. Your mother was working the bon bon concession at the Eiffel Tower.

Gotta love how Paulie often felt the need to repeat the joke he just said to people sitting right there who had already heard it.

Yeah, one gotta love how Paulie often felt the need to repeat the joke he just said to people sitting right there who had already heard it.

^LOL.