next family/crew to be completly gone

Hey guys, enjoy reading the posts here alot so i figured i should finally register. My question is which familyis next to be completly defunct, pittsburg, cleveland, la, tampa, stlouis ect? I know these arent viable organizations any longer but im more curious about these smaller crews since constantly only hearing about new york/notheast and chicago families. thanks guys.

pittsburgh tampa cleveland l.a. are pretty much defunct now....

Of the remaining families that could be considered as such, I'd say the DeCavalcantes.

agreeded. i know that u and i are the same waive length with detroit and kc but for shits and giggles for those people that wanna argue about their activities. i would also say them.

thanks for the input guys. seems like a great site you all have going on here.

how many made guys do the decav's have that are active? the same amount as in philly?

i think around 25-30.

so decav's=philly? thats pretty interesting i think, decav's are def much lower profile than philly that's for sure

i dunno....they just don't seem to be as solid as philly...they are just i dunno man. i mean there acting boss was involved in the phyiscal shakedown of a two bit pizza parlor...what kinda of hierarchy puts themselves in that kind of position? i don't think i could ever see uncle joe doing that.

thank you and welcome to the boards!

very very true, i agree with you on that. BUT they have other made guys in that fam who are active and i assume are earning out on the street so besides that episode of that shakedown we just dont know much about their activities since vinny ocean flipped.

remains to be seen

Like I've said before, I'm not willing to completely write them off yet. But the DeCavalcantes seem to have been running on fumes over the past decade. In only a few years, from about 1999 to 2001, their boss, 3 acting bosses, consigliere, 5 captains, and at least 7 soldiers and several associates were indicted. That's devastating for a small family like that.

Of course, around that same time Philly was down to about a dozen active made guys on the street and they rebounded. So we'll see.

What do you think of Detroit, Ivy? Do you think it's possible they're as functional as McScott makes them out to be on RD? Or are they more akin to Buffalo? Ie. somewhat high number of members, but not doing too much. No unions, no real source of power.

makes you wonder if the guys that were bumped up after the administration was dismantled can learn from thier mistakes or if they lack leadership and longevity and were luckey and bumped up by default.

buffalo with high number of members? how many? that fam is basically non-existent i saw todaro jr last month at the pizzeria he def looks like he aint involved lcn is the furthest thing away from his mind, besides buffalo is a dying city

bumped up by default

kind of like the guys who have been running the colombo borgata recently

detroit seems to me to be a small but stable family but with the economic downturn and urban blight reducing that city to a pile of crap it makes you wonder if the money-making opportunities will still be there in the future. the same can be said about buffalo. some areas of those cities look like war zones and detroit if i remember correctly has one of the highest illiteracy rates in the country, approaching 45%!

me and the most hated user of this forum were just talking about this the other day. i just don't see how detroit lcn can be of any thing of any kind of significaice. look at every other family...what do they do? they take advantage of their environment. that's how they live and thats what they do. whether it be thru unions, loan sharking this or that....google detroit michigan or flint michigan or any surrounding places around detroit and tell me what is there really there to take advantage of?

detroit and buffalo also suffer from a severe case of white flight, ie most of the cacasian or affluent citizens are getting out of there at alarming rates leaving lcn without a pool of recruits and customers for thier illicit services, and since lcn usually isnt involved in STREET LEVEL open air drug markets it seems to me that thier main sources of revenue are drying up.

the mafia will extort anyone or anything...really dosen;t care what color you are...the point is there is really nothing left in those places to extort

Pittsburgh and Cleveland are both apparently down to one active made guy (Sonny Ciancutti and Russell Papalardo, respectively - the former is about 80 and the latter is like 67). There is a handful of other made guys in those two cities but they are apparently retired. Once those two guys are dead, both families will be completely extinct.

What seems to be the case with Buffalo and Detroit is that, although they both still have like 20 members left, the membership got old and rich. So the families have stopped doing much (if anything) even though they have a lot of made guys left. In my opinion (and I hope this doesn't "offend" anyone, haha), the Chicago Outfit also seems to be in the process of turning into this kind of family.

That's kinda what I was thinking. Buffalo lost their union. Whoever had enough money to get by went legit (the owners of a certain pizza chain). Those who didn't probably scrape by, day to day. That's the impression I get with Detroit too.

I've said it many times. While I appreciate the insight mcscott does give on Detroit, he does tend to exaggerate the family's size and scope. It's not an uncommon thing for authors to do with their subject. As I've pointed out before, back in the mid-1990's, the family was estimated to have 30 made members at most. Now, according to mcscott's latest chart, it's doubled in size. Not likely. And I don't buy the lame, wishful thinking argument that the Detroit family is somehow smarter and sneakier or better connected so they can avoid law enforcement scrutiny unlike all the other families. So, yes, in my opinion the evidence shows the family is closer to Buffalo at this point.

I totally agree with Ivy. I'm from the suburbs of Youngstown, OH and now live outside of Boston. When I moved up here, I had kept hearing how the New England Family was so active and in such great shape, but it was the FBI and other media sources blowing it out of proportion. When u walk down Atwells Ave on Federal Hill, there are still some nickel dime wiseguys around and the same goes for Boston's North End, but the family is now being decimated by indictments. Over the last year, the hierarchy of the organization has either been indicted, cooperated with the FBI or has gone to prison. Luigi Manocchio was one of the most powerful bosses in the country with a lot of support from NY and Chicago. Now that he is awaiting trial, and with his top hierarchy cooperating, I think New England will begin the attrition process that so many other smaller families inevitably go through...just like Detroit and Buffalo. Besides NY and Chicago which are both truly on the decline, la cosa nostra's lifespan may be 20 years "at best." There will always be gambling and extortion, but the structure of the families will suffer immensely. Law Enforcement has too much money, time and knowledge and have been decapitating mafia organizations all over the World. Although I love discussing the topic, it will eventually go away and never be like it was in its heyday.

Lately, I've been very interested in reading about some of the smaller, obscure families. Does anybody know if there has been any books written on Nick Civello in Dallas or the Smaldino brothers in Denver? I am also looking for good books on Milwaukee in regards to Frank Balistrieri. Any recommendations would be appreciated!

me too, that was the point of me starting this thread but others were quick to change the topic to the next viable family to be gone. i have a big interest in the smallest of crews even if there are only a handful of guys left, but the problem is almost no current info on any of them, which one might expect. however its still very interesting to me so anybody that has any info please share.

As a matter of fact, there will be a book out soon on the Milwaukee Mafia. A lot of stuff on Frank Balistrieri will be presented. The author´s name is Gavin Schmitt. And what I heard, the book is well researched.
I´ll let you know when it hits the shelves!

Only 11 months left...Well 21.12.2012 is near Joke ofcourse,i give them more than 20 years if they reorganize somehow,less rats well much more than 20 years.

About shortage of members,well that's not problem too since there are more Italians in New York than in Rome.But interesting thing is i read somewhere how most of new members are junkies.

probably true,but i never really believed these fairy tales of the old timers being somehow a cut above the rest. These guys have been involved in everything from drugs to child porn. I even think there was a luchese capo who was convicted of gang raping a 16 year old.

Respectfully disagree on Chicago. It's going to be like Buffalo and Detroit before long. Cosa Nostra in the USA will likely be a New York thing in 20 years (plus maybe NY family operatives in New Jersey, Florida, and other places like that).

As for the thing about all the new members in New York being junkies - that's likely references to new members being hooked on pain pills, which apparently is reaching epidemic proportions in Staten Island, Long Island, and other places in the area.

20 year? I have said it many times, they didnt emerge in 20 years. They wont be gone in 20 years, i am talking about NY families. Outside i can agree with a lifespan of 20 years for Philly, New Jersey etc.

I didn't mean the New York families will be gone in 20 years; all I said was that Chicago will be nonviable in 20 years.The New York mob will probably be around in one form or another a hundred years from now.

Chicago has the advantage of having had only 1 rat, they are very cautious..I think that the Colombos are likely to disappear..

not so sure if they will dissapear in the near future. even a family with that many problems still has the advantage of being smack in the middle of the mafia's holy city, new york, and with still over a hundred members attrition wont effect them nearly as much as any family outside new york. with that said its always possible that some of the better earners and stand up guys (if there are any left) that are out on the street might be absorbed into the other families if they are stripped naked before any important meetings:)

Chicago will disappear way before the Colombos will.

Yep. And, for the record, Chicago has had more than one rat. It's just only one guy out of that group was a made guy. And that's probably due to the unique situation of making guys in Chicago. What's left of the Chicago mob is relatively disciplined and secretive, as it's been for decades. They've avoided getting heavily into the drug trade. They've cut way down on the murders and assaults that bring more pressure from law enforcement. But what will bring about their demise before that of the Colombo family, despite all it's chaos, is general attrition. In short, Chicago doesn't have the manpower to outlast any of the NY families.

Here's a book on Denver. I happened upon it at my local library a year ago or so. Pretty good.

http://www.amazon.com/Smaldone-Untold-Story-American-Family/dp/1555917186

Detroit, Chicago, New England.

I'd say that in that order too. Buffalo's gone. Though they did control a union all the way up to 1996. LA's been defunct since 1998.

What I find amusing is that some of those who play up this "Chicago only has one made rat" thing also make a big deal out of how powerful and high-ranking unmade associates in Chicago are.



Still, as I have said before I strongly suspect it's less a matter of them being disciplined and secretive, and more a matter of them not doing much.



I agree that New England seems to be more "alive" than Chicago and will probably last a bit longer.

Though historically Ivan, and still up to recently with Frank 'The German' associates have always gotten a lot of respect in The Outfit, where as in New York they're shit on.

Yes, I know, but what I meant was that some people will say what you are saying, and then act like it's not a big deal when an associate flips, because they aren't made. Does not compute.

I googled it and couldn't find any hits ona book. Do u know the title and release date? Publisher?

I believe it´s the Milwaukee book you are referring to.

I believe the book is in its final stages and will be released in March or April this year.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1008651197/milwaukee-mafia-book

It's true Chicago has had more than 1 rat.. thank you Ivy for the correction!!

christopher "christy tick" furnari was convicted rapist. he was consig. supposedly tommy desimone attempted to rape karen hill those are the luchesses rapists i can think of. im sure there is many more in the mob.

Wow, okay I'm new to this site, but I have to say, the ignorance when it comes to the mighty Chicago Outfit is absolutely laughable. You people really haven't the slightest clue...It's quite astounding, really.

The Chicago Outfit is & always has been second to the Gambino Family in the United States, and it always will be.

What do you expect by writing this in your first post around here?

You mean, calling things like I see them? I don't like to play games/play around, if you've got some legit facts, wonderful. If not, don't waste people's time.

I feel a new Outfit war is coming. Word on the street is IvyLeague is sharping his knives, again.

Actually I could not have said this any better.

And calling things like you see them and calling things like they are, are two different things. But just to be nice to you click on these links:


https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=813129

Only bosses sat on the Commission.

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=1444530

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=1447572

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=1413259

And this is from a special FBI report regarding the Chicago outfit:

"LEADERSHIP (Chicago "family")

The organizational structure of the Chicago
"family" as it is known today was brought about primarily throus
the efforts of ANTHONY JOSEPH ACCARDO who served as boss of
the Chicago "Family" for approximately 10 years
In 1956 or 1957 SAMUEL A GIANCANA succeeded
ACCARDO as boss and continues in this capacity at the
present time. It is noted that GIANCANA was incarcerated
on June 1 1965 for contempt of court and was released from
this incarceration on May 31 1966 at which time he voluntarily
fled the country and currently remains outside of the US."

But since you live in Chicago and therfore know better than the rest of us, I guess all these reports must be wrong.

Hi Nicholas,

Not all together true in regards to NY "shitting all over associates." Google Joe "The German" Watts, who was one of the most influential associates of the Gambino Crime Family and a very wealthy man. He was recently sentenced to 13 years in Federal prison.

wow don't know where your getting your facts at but boy are the wrong! and since when are the gambinos #1?

Thanks so much for the link Ivy-I just ordered the book and am looking forward to reading it.

If you are interested in any of the following cities, here are some great books on lesser known crime families and figures:

1. Lonely Fighter by Andrew Susce- Book about the IRS pursuit of John LaRocca from Pittsburgh.

2. The Silent Don by Scott Deitch- Book on Santo Trafficante

3. The Mafia and the Machine by Frank Hayde- Story on the Kansas City Mafia

Here is the most recent update on the mafia in Detroit.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2011/06/24/organized-crime-in-detroit-forgotten-but-not-gone/

New England will last longer? no they wont. New england mob has only 8 made guys left on the street, how many does chicago have out? I know that the amount of guys you have in your family doesnt depend on how powerful the family is but 8 active made men is worrying. Chicago will be active for another 30 40 years min

New England have about 50 made members.

pretty sure that you are confused. maybe 8 guys in providence but certainly way more than that when you take boston and other surronding areas into consideration.

That article was posted here last year and started quite a debate. I think it's a bit overblown myself, although some 19 year old kid from Detroit will probably post that the Detroit family has actually gone "underground" and is stronger than ever.

I don't see it. I'd put them just ahead of families like Buffalo and Tampa. Another generation of Italian American assimiliation and it's all over for them, too.

yeh i might be confused actually. yeh im sorry :L but heres a thing about chicago http://www.laborers.org/ChicagoMag_Moblite_12_00.htm

no need to apologize, this board is for learning

I dont know much about the New England mob, whats its current status then? have they got an official boss out of prison?

Try checking out this thread :

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=616947#Post616947

Family charts made by Mukremin,that could help.

yeh i cant se it cos im not registered to that site and dont want to because im on my grandads computer at the moment :L

U dont need to be registered u must download photos because they are high-res.U should click here:

yh just realised, im on it, cheers!

Acting boss for New England right now is Anthony DiNunzio. Since Luigi Manocchio had stepped down and then got indicted (ironically), Peter Limone was said to be the acting boss but was convicted in a gambling book he was running, it has been reported by Fox News Undercover that Anthony Dinunzio is now in charge. The Providence faction has recently been decimated by indictments, cooperating witnesses and prison sentences.

Check some of these links out if you would like to learn more about the New England branch of la cosa nostra (known as "the office")

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/family_epics/providence_mob/2.html

http://www.wpri.com/dpp/news/local_wpri_underworld_bosses_rhode_island_20081124

http://topics.myfoxboston.com/m/27276191/state-of-the-mafia-in-new-england.htm

http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/undercover/the-state-of-the-new-england-mafia-20110203

Thanks for the effort, but old news; all those articles posted on the GBB before. Nothing for nothing, the search function can be really useful for sifting through the archives to find threads on a particular subject.

Accardo was NEVER THE BOSS, it was always a front for either Ricca, Giancana, or Aiuppa/Cerone. Tony Accardo himself never had the final word on ANYTHING.

Yes, most reports are completely false, this is what makes the Outfit so cunning & makes them so effective at what they do.

You gotta be kidding? Accardo was never a boss? where did you get that from, all the others were front bosses. He had the ultimate control over the Outfit for more than 30 years.

No, he didn't. That is ridiculous bullshit orchestrated by Ricca/Giancana/Aiuppa. As I said before, if all the information you've got on the Outfit comes from Wikipedia, please refrain from commenting. What's the point? Accardo never rose to anything above consigliere, he never wanted to. These are FACTS, not storybook fiction.

I have never seen someone or some article/book talking how TOny Accardo never was a boss.U have any evidence anyone who researched Outfit to prove it ? If not then dont claim it,maybe u are right but there are no documents to prove it.

I'm not going to get into how I know these things. Whatever you're thinking, you're probably right. Anything that you read in books/on the web has likely been researched by FBI folks/organized crime "specialists". These men are not in the know, they take whatever the Outfit gives them, which is barely anything at all.

I'm from the streets of South Side Chicago, I'm 100% Sicilian, I always keep an ear to the street & always have. This is how you gain real knowledge, not by going on Wikipedia.

Gambinos are the biggest? Yeah that John Gotti guy was really cool, wasn't he?

Genovese* sorry about that.

What was that about a Detroit guy being found dead in the U.K in '98?

It's the same old debate every few months. You just have to switch around the family. "The feds don't know anything. Chicago/Detroit/wherever is so secretive, so well connected..I'm from NY/Chicago/Detroit so I know things that you don't."

There's no way that the modern day Outfit is second to the Genovese in any category. Chicago is still a viable family, sure. But they don't rival any of the NY families, except for possibly the Colombos. But whatever. Everyone always sticks to their guns about how their hometown mob is enormously powerful, despite all odds. All we have to do is search for the last Chicago fight to see how this plays out.

yeh i thought he was the boss with many front bosses for him however i read the book operation family secrets by calabresr jr and he said he was consigliere but maybe the administration confuses their associates?

Nah, this guy pretty much shot himself in the foot from the start.

First, when one uses the phrase "the mighty Chicago Outfit," there's a good chance you're dealing with fanboy syndrome.

Second, he accuses others of "not having a clue" yet he misidentifies the Gambinos as the top family. To say nothing of misidentifying Chicago as the #2 family.

Third, do I even need to get into the revisionist history regarding Accardo? Which, by the way, is really a separate issue entirely from the current state of the Chicago mob.



It's refreshing to see that others are starting to recognize this hometown thing for what it is. As soon as I read, "I'm from Chicago" and "I'm 100% Sicilian" - which means everyone should just automatically take his word as gospel - I thought to myself, here we go again.



Not sure where you got that 8 made guys on the street figure. Of course, the New England family consists of members in Boston, Providence, and Connecticut. Active made guys in Providence and Connecticut appear to be down to single digits but there's more in Boston. And, in terms of discernible activity, Chicago is comparable to New England.

Tony Accardo, in my eyes, was the most successful of American mob bosses. Just had to say.

There were bosses who did even less time in jail, comparable to what Accardo's 1 day, but none made the amount of money or notoriety that Accardo achieved.

First of all, Accardo was never THE BOSS, he always reveled in his role as consigliere. He held the underboss position for a short period of time (on several occasions), but he was not a fan of the responsibility.

If we're talking longevity, Paul Ricca was the most successful of all-time. If we're talking numbers, Joey Aiuppa, hands down was the richest. And if we're talking fame & glory, Moe Giancana takes the cake always. Accardo was interesting because he sort of balanced back & forth between those 3. He never really kicked his alcohol & gambling addictions, so considering him for boss was always naturally out of the question, but he never went for power plays anyways. Instead, he managed to stay relevant throughout 3 Outfit dynasties (Ricca, Giancana, Aiuppa/Cerone) & always make himself & his crew useful. He had no qualms about being the fall guy & always remained loyal. He toyed around with getting clipped/whacked when he purchased his River Forest mansion in 1953 & began holding massive, lavish parties, a HUGE no no within the Outfit. Giancana abruptly put a stop to that & the mansion was sold in 1961, with Accardo moving to a more modest, unassuming location.

So getting back to the point at hand, Joe Batters was never the boss, but he never really wanted it that bad anyways. I actually find him to be one of the least interesting figures throughout Outfit history.

Also, Chicagoland Italian organized crime dwarfs New England's.

Oh, and yes, the Outfit is very close to the Genovese family in size, right behind them actually.

You keep making these pronouncements like they're facts and that everyone should just take your word for it. Never mind you actually supporting your claims with evidence or at least something beyond, "I live in Chicago" or "I'm 100% Sicilian."

In terms of both size (by estimates) and activity (shown by news and indictments) Chicago is comparable to other smaller remaining families outside of New York. New England or Philadelphia for example.

This same criteria shows the Gambinos, not the Outfit, to be #2. And though it may burst your bubble, the same criteria also shows the rest of the NY families would come before the Outfit at this point.

Remember, we're talking about the Chicago Outfit in 2012. Not 1952.

so your basing size/power/activity on indictments & what you read on the internet? Sorry, those things don't happen anymore in Chicago, the guys here possess functioning brains. No need to war with each other any more like savages. NY members are out in the open, they're still performing grimy, menial, street-level tasks. Not that the Outfit aren't, but we are just more discreet/unassuming about our business here.

As far as size goes, the Outfit is right in between the Genovese & Gambino families.

But I digress, this is EXACTLY what the Outfit want people to believe, and it is upsetting because people (even law enforcement at some level) buy into the myth that the Outfit is somehow inactive/crippled. It's simply not true.

Sorry, man, but all these talking points you're using have already been used by a legion of people long before you.

You living in Chicago doesn't necessarily mean anything. And, frankly, nobody really cares.

You being 100% Sicilian doesn't necessarily mean anything. And, frankly, nobody cares.

And that "indictments doesn't apply to us" crap doesn't fly. Others have attempted to use that same excuse to claim that families from New Orleans to Detroit to San Francisco are still going strong.

in recent cases both the Genovese and Gambino families were each estimated to have about 200 made members. The Outfit, in the recent "Family Secrets" case, was said to have 28. And estimates in other recent articles haven't gone above 50.

And why are you phrasing it as, "we are just more discreet/unassuming about our business here?" You couldn't come off as more of a fanboy rooting for the hometown crime family if you tried.

New Orleans & Detroit are barren hell-holes, there is no way to make a serious profit in either of those "cities", legal or illegal. Chicago is a booming mega-metropolis, third largest city in the U.S., & American's haven for organized crime & corrupt politics.

Family Secrets barely put a fuckin dent in the Outfit, & the FBI is a complete joke. They've never had solid intel on the Outfit, ever. Most of them are as confused as you people or taking bribes from them.

I'll phrase it however I want to phrase it. I'm a Chicagoan, I'm speaking for all of us in the way that we carry ourselves. We aren't loud & obnoxious like our East Coast counterparts, we're keep-to-ourselves gentlemen here, there is no need to flaunt. As far as the Outfit goes, they are Chicagoans as well & operate just as such. They're obviously doing a wonderful job, as they seem to have 99% of the general public completely confused.

28 made members my ashy Sicilian ass..

Ah, another favorite talking point of the Chi-town guys. Try to connect most, if not all, organized crime and corruption in Chicago to the Outfit in some way.



Says who? You? Sorry but I gotta go with the feds. But, hey, that's me. And several huge dents were made in the Outfit in the 1980's and 1990's. Which is why what's left of the organization is much smaller, more streamlined, and doesn't have the scope it once did. There's a reason why the "Family Secrets" case dealt with very old murders in addition to the standard gambling and loansharking charges.



And the FBI as well, according to you anyway.



Keep in mind that's likely referring to guys that are technically made, i.e. have gone through the ceremony. As has been discussed here recently, Joey Lombardo was not identified as a made member of the Outfit in the "Family Secrets" indictment like Jimmy Marcello and the Calabreses were. But nobody will claim that Lombardo doesn't have made status. It may be that he was already considered a member before the Outfit started using the ceremony. In addition to that 28 made members, the feds cited a little over 100 associates. In any event, even if you count made guys, plus however many guys have made status, plus associates, the Outfit isn't comparable to any of the NY families.

Look, all of your information comes from bogus feds, wikipedia, youtube, gangster websites like this one, and frankly it's all horse shit speculation from people that really don't know a damn thing. Where are you from? What neighborhood? Come to Chicago, come see it for yourself, no one's stopping you. Until then, I really don't think you have any place telling people what's what on the matter.

I don't know a goddamned thing about New York, and I don't pretend to. I would never open my mouth up & claim something as fact that I read on the internet, how does that solidify it as truth?

Chicago is gigantic, it will continue to get bigger. It has always been a mecca for crime, what makes you think the Outfit would be weak when there is more money to be made than ever before here? The city is much larger than it was during their heydey.

Yo Bridgeport, take it down a notch! While we all appreciate your interest on the subject, you need to support some of your noticeably outrageous statements with some concrete evidence. From everything that I have read from Bill Roemer, who was an expert on the subject of the Outfit, he was certain that Accardo was pulling the strings for over 40 years, putting frontmen in the position/title of boss. Bill Roemer is Notre Dame educated and has been in the field for a long time. So, where do I get your "intel" from? Is it Bruno the shoe repair man in your neighborhood or is it Giacomo at the corner store?

I totally agree with this quote.
Bridge, do you bother reading other people´s posts or do you feel manically driven to write a bunch of crap just to provoke?
I have given you links to FBI documents that clearly shreds your arguments into pieces. What have you given me/us in addition to a lot baloney? Nothing!
When writing this in your first post:....

"Wow, okay I'm new to this site, but I have to say, the ignorance when it comes to the mighty Chicago Outfit is absolutely laughable. You people really haven't the slightest clue...It's quite astounding, really."

...there is no none here who is going to take you seriously.
Here are a lot of posters who are far more knowledgeable in OC then you are.
Was your first post intended to provoke? I beleive so. Then what do you expect from other posters around here?
I really don´t want to drag this into something that will last for years unless you can come up with something that backs your stetements. And I´m sorry, "people here in Chicago knows the truth" or "I´m in the know" or "my granpa told me" or wathever, just won´t cut it.

"Fame and glory"?

Weird.



LA is a larger city than Chicago, yet its mafia family is down to a handful of possibly retired guys.

That's true, the Gambinos were bigger in size than the Genoveses for many years.

That sounds reasonable, but it is generally believed that Ricca and Accardo were the ones who called the shots. Maybe Ricca was the top boss for some time, but Ricca and Accardo were said to be very close friends so it didn't really matter.

Really? Didn't know that. Do mean under D'Aquila? I think I recall reading that his family was the biggest circa 1924.

The Gambinos were certainly bigger in size than the Genoveses from the 1970s to 1990s. But some over at the real deal stated that the Gambinos always were the "biggest" family, which makes sense, considering that the books were closed for mass ceremonies from 1957 to 1975. So I always found it quite odd that the Gambinos suddenly became bigger than the Genoveses during Gambino's reign.

Ivyleague will agree with me on this, because he provided some of the information. And if he doesn't agree, IT WILL BE WAR.

BridgeportVet,

Mafia families today have to be looking over their shoulder now more than ever. On top of the fact that Valachi exposed how a family hierarchy is structured 50 years ago, it was a matter of time before the government gained enough knowledge and learned how to apply the RICO Act (Which was written by Notre Dame Law Professor Robert Blakely, an expert in the field of organized crime). The government is a machine with more money and power to slow down any type of organized crime activity. If the Feds set their sights on an individual or a group of individuals, they will find something. Plus, the baby boomer generation of mobsters for the most part can't do the time, so they turn state's evidence. With all the laws that are used to combat organized crime, political protection and corruption is much harder to achieve from an organized crime point of view. Do you think Carlo Gambino worried about RICO? Tony Accardo? Sam Giancana? RICO didn't exist when they were running the show. It wasn't until the 1986 Mafia Commission case in New York that RICO was applied and was a 100% success against the top mafia bosses. Even though Tony Accardo still had a large hand in the decisions of the Outfit back in 1986, he was really no longer a threat since he was wearing depends!!!

If you really want to credit some mafia bosses who were a success during the RICO era, let's credit Luigi "Baby Shacks" Manocchio from New England, who ran his family since 1995 until 2011 without any problems. Although he was indicted last year for shaking down strip clubs (LOL), it was all the government could get after 16 years of running a tight ship. You can also credit Joey "Big Joey" Massina (now a cooperating witness), as he ran the Bonanno Family for over 13 years without any major hiccups. When the government puts a microscope on a target and they still have a difficult time generating an indictment, I'd say that is pretty significant at this day in age.

For christ's sakes, your local mafia boss (John "No Nose" DiFronzo) drives around town in a pick up truck meeting his crew captains at local restaurants as the local news channel's investigative team is videotaping and taking photos of these meetings. I'd have to say that No Nose has taken one too many bong rips in his younger days to allow that to happen!

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/iteam&id=6705293

Joey Massino could ran the Bonannos his way because they were pretty much ignored by the feds. When the feds did put their sights on him, it was over before he knew it. I would rather credit the Chin for his remarkable act.

you got to credit ligambi for being an active boss of the philly mob for twelve years or so and only get a light rico indictment?

True, but it should be noted that at almost 73 years old, that "light RICO indictment" could mean that he dies in prison.

The average age for a mobster to die of "natural causes" is 98 so I think he will survive prison and continue to perform as boss.

on mob scene anastasia said he facing max ten and a half years as i remember

I have mixed feelings about Ligambi and this topic. He did hold down philly for 12 years and now does have as GA would qoute, "racketeering light case". But say he does get 10 years or even 8, he could die in prison. Now I look at it and say well he is playing with house money. He made some loot for his family and now is going back in prison after 15 years or so on the street. He got lucky when he got let out of jail...he would have died in prison. But he got out. But that leads me to my other feelings about Ligambi. You get out by the skin of your teeth and you have a comfortable life, why not enjoy your family in your golden years. I guess the life is to much to leave behind and maybe he thought he wouldn't get caught being that he kept things quiet and only a few guys were making serious money. idk.

yh its is golden years but what about all the old guys in new york? plus theirs that saying that you cant leave the life but this day and age thats bollocks. probably they prefer you to leave then staying with them for few years and then cooperate

I think most of these guys are "addicted" to the life.

Libambi like most people is/was greedy. It's just most peoples nature to want as much money as possible.

I understand I really do but when you are in jail and think your never going to get out I am sure you think if you had one more chance you would do something different...maybe not with some guys. How many guys do 10 years and then a murder conviction get overturned... Are there any other mobsters that were in a position like that? I know that guys may get back into the life but he jumped into the big seat having to know he will go down again.

i agree with you but i also think its a greed thing aswell. but anyhow i think he did sort out the philly mob out. btw whats a signature on here?

Seriously, why do cosa nostra guys live so damn long?

Well, they have the cash.

Then again, I think I read in King of the Godfathers that diabetes is common in the life. Were there any notable cases besides Castellano and Massino?

Over 60 percent of overweight people are either diabetic or pre-diabetic. A lot of mob guys seem to be overweight. I don't think there's any more to it than that.

Does anybody know if Sonny Ciancutti from Pittsburgh is still running a bookmaking operation. I couldn't imagine that after the slap on the wrist that he got from his conviction in 2000 that he would give up a $500,000 per week operation (for NFL) and a $250,000 per week (for NBA). Two of his main bookies was John "Johnny A" Adams and Ralph "Big Head" Masselli. Any accurate information is welcomed.

I dunno, but you have to realize that bookmaking numbers are ALWAYS inflated by the Feds when they make a gambling pinch.

Last I heard he was still at it, but that was about 5 years ago. I'm going to assume he's still doing it until I hear otherwise.

He's like 80 though.

That's just it. Unless you're personally involved in things there, in which case you likely wouldn't be posting on this board, you get most of your information from the same sources everyone else does. I mean, it's not like the Outfit is sending you weekly reports on what they're up to. It's not like you're staking out some mob hangout and documenting all their comings and goings. While it would have 15 or 20 years ago, you living in Chicago really doesn't give you much advantages in terms of insight at this point.



And yet here you are demanding that everyone accept your posts on the internet as absolute truth.



By that same logic, the LA family should still be going strong since LA is even bigger and there's so much money to be made there.

Ivan,

Have you heard or do you know if anybody has happened to run into Chucky Porter since his release from prison? I'm positive he has been in the Pittsburgh/Penn Hills area since being released. I wonder since he never testified in open court against anybody, if he and Mike Genovese spoke at all before the old man died. I spoke to Chucky Porter's son about 4 years ago in regards to interviewing his Dad for a book that my colleague was writing, but he declined the interview. When I spoke to Roger Greenbank from the FBI, he had told me that Chucky Porter was a gentleman and also was ashamed that he cooperated and gave info on his former cronies. He also said that Porter was a "stand up" guy as far as his life with his personal family and that he wasn't surprised that Porter declined the interview.

LA is a completely different town than Chicago is, cone on guys, use your heads.

During the Ricca/Accardo years, Accardo was the puppet front boss while Ricca called the shots, end of story. I know I talk about guys like Moe & O'Brien as the best Outfit bosses, but Paul Ricca is really in a class all by himself when it comes to American Mafiosi. How that guy did it, we will never know.

Bill Roemer LOL!!! Bill is a good guy, & really cared about the work that he did. But his only TRUE window into the Outfit was Jackie The Lackey, and Cerone didn't give him SHIT. Keep believing your bullshit feds info from guys that don't even live here, that base everything they've got off of lies told to them & goofy code talk.

Johnny DiFronzo's nickname is 'Bananas', not 'No Nose'. And JDF is RICH. AS. FUCK. He is a jokester & driving around in that beater pick-up is his way of giving the reporters/feds something to scratch their heads about. He has absolutely nothing to hide, there is nothing they can do to him at this point. Elmwood Park is untouchable for the time being. That's why you can catch these guys out & about anywhere around the city, they have nothing to fear & nothing to hide.

No one cares man lmao seriously

@BridgeportVet: There is thread on real deal talking about u caliming all that things and laughting to you.I mean really proof or stop talking.

what the fuck is a thread on real deal?

RAT!

i was told that i drove by his house in penn hills. i don't know if it was really his but my buddy swore that it was.

You can't really speak on the Outfit without being considered a "rat" because no one really knows anything about them.

im reading that thread now! people are shittin on him left and right and up side down its great!

how can i get on the real deal forums?

talk to ivy league. you have to be invited. and you def can't act like our friend bridgeport.

maybe you can vouch for me haha! ive only been a member for a little while but my threads and posts are at least reasonable. oh, i also heard the outfit made 200 new members in a huge new years celebration:)

Except you, right?

Five Felonies, check your PM's.

the size doesnt mean you powerful or weak though does it?

The size of a family is certainly a factor. To think otherwise is like saying a 20 member family could be as strong as a 200 member family. It's not a coincidence that the larger families are the stronger ones and the smaller families are not as strong.

Also, please remember we're going by actual official estimates here. Not phony figures pulled from where the sun don't shine.

ok. roughly how many made men are their in the genovese? i read it was around 270

That figure was from the NY Daily News or NY Post (can't recall which one) a few years ago and it was inflated. Same for the 260 figure about the Gambinos that came from the same article.

The 2007 indictment against Genovese acting boss Danny Leo cited the family as having a little over 200 members.

The 2010 indictment against Gambino acting boss Danny Marino cited the family as having a little over 200 members.

Thanks for the info about Porter. No idea what he's up to these days - I never really knew much about him. Most of my knowledge of Pittsburgh is due to the Youngstown thing.

with your knowledge, how many made men and associates you believe are inthose two families?

If you're referring to the Genovese and Gambinos, the 200 figure for each family is consistent with other estimates. That's total made members - active, inactive, in prison. The Luccheses, Colombos, and Bonannos each have a little over 100 total made members.

Estimating associates is something else entirely. It's not like counting members, where somebody is made or they're not. It all depends on how one defines an associate and that's usually up to the local FBI SAC in a given area. Depending on how rigid or loose of a definition you want to go with, you'll see the ratio of members to associates in the NY families range anywhere from 1/3 to 1/10. Meaning 3 associates for every member all the way up to 10 associates for every member.

Five Felonies, you must know however, that one's you're in, you can never go out, expect in a box.

Hi Ivyleague,

Am I able to get on the forum? I was told to speak with you. You can email me privately if you need to. Thanks so much.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe Porter lived(s) on Old William Penn Highway, at least that is where he made his home back in the 80's and 90's. I'm not sure if his family moved when he went to prison or cooperated. I know his cousin is Rocco Viola, a Cranberry developer and he supposedly went to work for his cousin when he got released (the same cousin that was on trial for allegedly paying him as a ghost employee). Henry "Zebo" Zottola was also employed by Anthony Rocca of Rocca's Italian Foods in New Castle, PA.

Iam sure he is living back at his old home ! People don't care about the mob today like twenty years ago !

I was actually just about to invite you. Wait a moment and I'll see what I can do.

edit: check your PMs

Let me start by saying Uncle Joe is my fav gangster.. I love this man.. Now, Joe Ligambi did get house money, i understand that.. This is a serious addiction. When your a mobster your whole life thats all you know. All your friends are mobsters so who are you gonna hang out with. When Uncle Joe got out im sure he didn’t have any money and his only friends and family were gangsters. So what did you want him to do? Develop a trait and start working 9-5? This guys would rather rot in jail than do that the rest of their life. Its simple.. If your on the streets for 5 yrs, making hundreds of thousands over this period of time, do you think ur gonna stop doing illegal shit and get a legit job? NO SHOT… The power, the swag, the look is an addiction just as bad as drugs and gambling. They are obsessed with their image.. These wiseguys will be the first to admit their criminals and the only way they will stop hanging around and doing illegal shit is if they hit the lotto, die or jail.. You think guys like Crea, Barney need to do tihis? What about Marino.. Guy shudda got out 5 yrs ago but he wont.. Carmine Sciandra’s top tomato is a gold mine in itself, the guy doesn’t have to do any of this and can make millions, where is he? Currently in jail.. LCN is their first priority, not girls, or their family, or their health..

Uncle Joe is a nice guy sucks hes in jail whatever

Uncle Joe didn't come home to nothing. And he has legit connections as well as not. No one is saying he needed to go get a job managing target 9-5. Not only did he jump right back in after being one of the luckiest guys ever, he brought his family more involved and even made his brother. He is one of my more favorite as well and did a good job in the big seat no doubt just kind of bothers me I guess cause he won an appeal on a murder. And if your gonna come back, why jump right into the big seat? Thats a one way ticket to jail. I guess I am playing devils addvocate here but the way he got out of jail I thought he would have thought twice. but i understand how it works just throwing some thoughts out there.

I Agree !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Could of came home and opened a nice Italian Restaurant ,told alot of war stories ,and been treated by All as a Great Stand Up Guy and Success Story !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's easy to play monday morning quarterback, but he would have been perfect in the consigliere role. It's a big enough position to assuage the ego, yet you're not as big a target. I'm sure he could have worked it out if he wanted to.

If he ends up with ten years---RICO "light" or not---he may very well die in jail.

I just think alot of these guys come home to nothing.

Lets say if your a soldier or even acting capo. Your crew consits of mby 5 gangsters if that.. Now say your crew gets sweeepd up and you along with ur big guy go away.. 5 to 7 years later your out and home to nothing.. Your rackets and gambling operation are gone.. What do you do? Your big guy may lay low bc obv he is not hurting for money.. So what do the rest of the guys do? Your prob gonna be demoted from capo or someone else took over ur turf who is now capo..

IS this how it works?

OK, I'm just going to assume that Ivan will do the invite here.

Ivan a made guy over at real-deal?

Oh, and has anyone mentiones KC? Definitely KC, though only after Detroit and shortly before Chicago.

Yes.



Depending on what is meant by "gone", they might already be. If you mean unstructured/nonviable, then they're history. Apparently a couple of made guys are still around and active though.

It's Deitche, and thanks !

Welcome to the board Scott, nice to see one of the "professional" researchers here.

Thanks. Saw this board in the past and finally got around to joining.

wow that was a pretty entertaining argument haha. does he post anymore or did he get banned? i agree with some of his points though

lol this is funny

there all scumbags, some are rapist's some are gay, some dabbled in herion sales, some dabbled in child porn production.... by the year 2025 the mob will have been a small stain on the criminal world... guys are finally figuring out in this day and age the way to go is independent, and have a small non affiliated crew... like guys you grew up woth or extended family members etc... almost every new lcn member these days are junkies that is fact... most old timers actually didnt use drugs beleive it or not they were actually about the paper.

patriarca LCN will soon be dead, i would think places like upstate NY and kansas city, NOLA california have been on the decline fro awhile now..... none of these gys are 100 percent italian even some of the old timers... thats why there reaching for membership in all the worng places.

this is dead on

is there ANY action still going on in the Cleveland/Youngstown area? I know a few of the guys from the Danny Greene era are still alive but not sure if they have any involvement anymore.

Yeah there's still some stuff going on but not much. Probably 10-15 guys around still and not much structure.

There'll always be something going on in Collinwood.

the outfit is gonna be the next one to go.

Not even close. New England or DeCalvacantes will be next.

Bullshit, Dellacroce is right If anyone's gunna go extinct it's Chcago

Yeah almost extinct when a low level guy had almost 200k cash laying around and supposedly extorting businesses across the country. There's many low level Philly and New England guys like that.

granted, every single family has fallen on extremely hard times since the mid 80's, but the question is, who has fallen the hardest? i don't think its even up for debate. the outfit went from a huge, immensely powerful organisation that spanned a huge area of the western US to a few crews operating almost entirely within the city itself as well as the surrounding suburbs with a few minor exceptions. most agree that they were comparable to the 3 smaller ny families before this occurred.

fast forward to the present day. while the ny families have all felt the sting of L/E and attrition, none have fallen nearly as far as the outfit. people can and will make jokes about sinking ships ect, but the fact remains that even the weaker ny families have the resources, manpower, and diversity to outlast whats left of the outfit. combine that with the obvious split between the illegal and semi-legit factions of what remains in chicago and you potentially have a perfect storm.

if we are discussing who is next to cross the line from viable to non-viable, my vote is detroit hands down. lots of people already think thats the case. as far as the rest, we shall see. the next decade or so will tell us alot. will the outfit continue to go the semi-legit path, or might we see a bit of a resurgence at least as far as the street rackets are concerned? if we don't, than it's far from a stretch to think that the decalvacante's might outlast them due to a superior recruiting pool at the very least. unless something drastic changes, i see both philly and NE sticking around longer.

^^^ Why is this so hard to understand for you "Cornballs" sorry Cheech but I love to use the term when it applies.

I don't know why some people seem to think New England is on the verge of extinction. The Providence faction may be depleted at the moment but, if you look at the past decade, that family has been as active as any outside New York.

That may be one of the most uneducated, non-researched statements that I have ever seen on a public forum regarding the mafia. Obviously, you're not a member of Real Deal? Quit spewing shit that you can't back up with research.

idiot

I don't think the mob will ever completely be gone. Some small families may get much smaller, but may well grow again

Who you talking to?

ya ill back you on that part, very few low to mid level new england guys have net worth like that. but theyll stick ya to collect a 300 dollar monthly payment from a drug dealer, or interest on a 5 grand loan.... its really kind of petty these days. Thats why unafilated guys have a job and hustle these days, like a union job nad run numbers or drugs on the side.... if you dont have a job these days you stick out like a sore thumb. Angelesco pays his bills by shaking down drug dealers for hundreds of dollars on a weekly monthly basis, and is enlisted by bookies nd loansharks to give beatings and stabbings to collect there debts in return angelesco and other knuckleheads take a percentage of the money they collected. i dont know what kind of person would resort to borrowing money from these clowns.

Philly & Jersey will be gone long before Chicago.

..... ... ..

?..........

Get off the toilet I gotta use it!

jersey can't even keep philly from operating in their territory

not too mention that there's more ny mafia's in jersey than decalvalcantes

It's one thing to correctly state that the Outfit is a shadow of its former self and has plummeted in stature locally and nationally the last 25 years. It's another thing to ludicrously think they will no longer exist anytime soon, fellas. Cicero and Chinatown are far from extinct. Chicago is too big a city and Chicagoland too big an area to think they will be gone in a generation let alone 10-15 years. DiFronzo is 85 years old how long does he have left? Once he passes we just may see a change in philosophy from Elmwood Park also..Stay tuned...

Yes, who was he talking to?

Probably you

The Chicago mobs power in the teamsters union , which is the strongest of any family in the US, combined with they're power in Chicago politics, which again is stronger than any family in the us. Means they will be the last to go. Outside of ny
Comparing Philly and ne to Chicago especially in terms of wealth is a joke

We'll have to wait for JCB to confirm that. Because I can actually back up what I said.

As for you, you go on wishful thinking more than anything else. You always have. When it comes to the modern day Outfit's power over the Teamsters or Chicago politics, there's much more smoke than there is fire.