Most reliable Chicago numbers?

Talking in terms of made guys, any opinions?

One fed said 25 which shocked people, some have said about 80-under 100 for the past decade, some people split the difference roughly to 50, and one list has about 200 guys on it (not unrealistic for Chicago's population, but way divergent from the other numbers thrown out there).

Well I guess it is to Chicago's credit they are able to remain so secretive, but any opinions on which number sounds the most likely and why?

This subject recently came up over on the Real Deal. Something to consider in the recent Family Secrets indictment - Jimmy Marcello, Frank Calabrese, and Nick Calabrese are all listed as "made" members of the Outfit. Meanwhile, Joey Lombardo is not, but is simply listed as a member of the Grand Avenue crew. How could this be when Lombardo has been at the top of the Outfit for years?

I threw out the theory that technically speaking, Lombardo may not be "made." Meaning he never went through the ceremony. And that's because he was already one of the top leaders in Chicago before the Outfit apparently started using the ceremony sometime in the 1970's. And, according to both Nick Calabrese and Jahoda, the last known ceremonies were some time in the late 1980's.

So you have this window from the 1970's to the 1980's where you have guys going through the traditional ceremony and therefore referred to as "made." 28 or 30 of them according to the most recent statements by the FBI. But you also had guys, Lombardo being an example, of others who effectively had made member status but never actually had their finger pricked, burned the saint card, took the oath, etc. If this is the case, it means Lombardo was actually telling the truth when he wrote that letter to a local newspaper saying he never had gone through any initiation ceremony.

There probably isn't a lot of them left like Lombardo. And there may be some on the other end who might have made status - younger guys like Michael Marcello or Nick Ferriola. But that's where we get into guesswork.

The way I see it, the recent estimate by the feds of the Outfit's total manpower is believable. You've got 28-30 guys who are technically made. Plus a little over 100 associates. And some of that number could be guys who more or less have made status.

I should add that the list of 200 names probably came from the one Little Al compiled for his blog and posted on the Real Deal years ago. But he never said which ones were made. They were just names of people connected to the Outfit in some way.

Little Al was considered by many, including myself, to be the most knowledgeable poster on the Chicago Outfit. He mentioned how back in 1999 the FBI had released a list of 47 names of made Outfit members to the local press. And that was over a decade ago now. So it's likely that the 28 or 30 figure is correct at this point, considering guys who have died off. And even if you were to add a hypothetical number of guys who have "made status," it's probably not above 50 at this point.

You really need to stop, buddy. Nothing but absolute ignorance.

Well, if you say so.

But, hey, don't take my word for it. I'm just quoting the FBI. I know, I know, they don't know anything.

(Pssst....you do realize that nobody here takes you seriously, right?)

Agreed. Your theory sounds very plausible, Ivey.

It's not his theory, it's whatever he's read online.

BridgeportVet
Hey, I think you shouldn't be rude. If you are, then it's natural some other users start mocking you. I don't want to act as if I were a moderator, but personal attacks do really disturb me during the reading of the threads, they distract people from presenting interesting information and transform the thread into an annoying off-topic.
I am sorry for intruding, but arguments between you and others pop up in almost every thread in the last couple of days.

Oh, come on now. I stated some facts about the Outfit that this guy wasn't aware of & he bit my head off for it, there's really nothing more to it. I don't know this person, I don't have beef with them, and I'm not seeking beef with them.

Bridgeport do you know this?, you can't tell us where you got your info from so why would we believe a word you say..not one person in here agrees with what your saying (not that i've seen) - you have also been asked several times to produce some proof or at least tell us how you know what you say you know.. I think you said "I just know" or some shit... I also know that your are from Chicago, but to be honest even if you do live in Chicago don't mean your in the know...does it now?, maybe someone is bullshitting you and in turn your trying to lay it on us... I do agree with one thing though - Joey Aiuppa was a very powerful guy and rich as hell.. I'll give you that..

I think Ivy is from Utah IIRC.

That makes a lot of sense.

@gemini_killer: If u just read any books,articles etc. U would be able to realise that everything "IvyLeague" said make sense.But what "BridgeportVet" makes no sense and ther are no books,articles etc about it.What "IvyLeague" knows and talks can tell u other guys that have knowledge,find me one guy that takes "BridgeportVet" seriously and can confirm things he is talking.

What have I said that is so ludicrous & unbelievable?

Something about that Chicago is second only to the Genoveses and that they still have hundreds of made men that aren't identified by law enforcement?

The FBI came out of 'Family Secrets' with primarily bogus/useless information pertaining to ancient matters, in addition to little to no useful/relevant information pertaining to the current Outfit. So what the fuck does Federal law enforcement know? The local law enforcement here in Chicago adore Outfit guys, they respect them & leave them alone more than ever before.

why do you think the feds are so stupid? perhaps maybe you should go become the next J Edgar Hoover and show them how things are done. i mean you are a very knowledgeable person....you just know things!

The Feds are not dumb people. They work very hard & very diligently. Unfortunately, in their line of work, whether or not that hard work will eventually pay off is a 50/50 gamble. With the Chicago Outfit, the harsh emphasis on keeping your mouth shut & keeping a low profile within the organization has led to Feds being alienated & left out in the cold. They made a big deal nationally about 'Family Secrets' because they were getting frustrated & wanted to show that they had at least accomplished something. But when you really sit down & have a good, solid look at it, they really didn't gain anything at all. Calabrese, Marcello, & Lombardo getting locked up for good was a blessing for the modern Outfit, those guys were ticking time bombs that have no place in the DiFronzo era.

this is your best post yet. your going in the right direction. and i will give you this Chicago does keep their mouth shut.

thats what I said.. I was using what Ivy says and directing it at BridgeportVet, have I picked this up wrong or did you think I was talking about someone else?

It was confusing at first, only because you quoted Ivy as if you were speaking to Ivy. But it was easy enough to realize who you were speaking to.

yeah I had a few too many and caused a bit of confusion (i've edited it now) - my apologies

By the way, could it be that DiFronzo just bought some of the Feds? I read they had something on him about the Spilotro murders, but for some reason they didn't even try to indict him.

Actually it is just a theory of mine. Didn't read it anywhere. I don't think it's just a coincidence that Lombardo wasn't identified as a "made" member of the Outfit like Marcello and the Calabreses were.

And do I need to repeat the fact that you most of your info from the same sources the rest of us do? Your zip code or your ethnic heritage doesn't provide you with some sort of crystal ball into the Outfit.

You come here, running your big mouth, making all these claims, insulting people, and then refuse to back up anything you say. And it's because you can't. You just wanted everyone to stand aside for you, when you came on this board, and take your word as gospel. Even though you're just another nameless, faceless poster like the rest of us. Just another phony "insider" with bullshit information and bullshit sources.

Whats up with Marcello being made; because of his younger age than Lombardo? I've also read in a few places of him being Irish on his mother's side.

I've also read that there were rival crews, Sarno and Marcello.

Anyone heard of Chicago wiseguy Lawrence Pusateri?

This is actually a good, insightful point. At least with respect to Calabrese (a serial killer who couldn't stop giggling during his trial) and maybe Marcello (some speculate that the Jarrett and Chiaramonti hits were part of new a hardline policy advocated by Marcello). Probably not Lombardo though - he seems to have been rather harmless by the time Family Secrets rolled around.

Maybe we can call the current nonviolent era the "Pax DiFronzo"?



Marcello was a "legacy" gangster, in that his dad was a mob guy and might have been made (not sure about that). If your father's in it's pretty easy to get in yourself.

In one of the weirder developments during Family Secrets, it came out that Marcello's dad had been whacked (by I think one of his extortion victims, who was later killed by the Outfit). Until then, James Marcello had publicly maintained that his father had been killed in a car wreck.

For the record, the theory I threw out there was that Lombardo wasn't identified as being "made" in the indictment because he may have never actually went through the making ceremony. But that doesn't mean he didn't have made status, as he was already a high-ranking figure in the Outfit before it apparently started using the ceremony in the 1970's.

Marcello & Lombardo were both fully initiated made members of the Outfit. The Outfit does not discriminate against partial Italians, and obviously the mixing of Italian & Irish blood has been prevalent for many many years, especially for political/financial reasons (Calabrese, Sr. marrying into the Hanley family, etc.)

Jimmy Marcello's past is very shaded & confusing. His father's cause of death remains unknown to this day. Regardless, his father was never a high ranking official in the mob. Jimmy Light busted his ass to get to the top, he was Black Sam Carlisi's driver/personal assistant for many years before being made.

Concerning Lombo, he was made into the mob during the late 60's/early 70's. Not sure on who sponsored him.

Large Mike Sarno is not a rival of the Marcello's, he is a member of the Cicero street crew like the Marcello brothers are/were. He has not, however, ever been boss of that particular crew, contrary to the bogus information that the Feds came up with. Jimmy 'Icepick' Inendino is the main power down in Cicero at the moment, with Sarno second in command.

Concerning Johnny DiFronzo, the notion that he bought the Feds is the one that makes the most sense. The guy was never even looked at during Family Secrets, rides around town all day eating & drinking, and is said to be worth well over $100 million, not including assets/security.

The hit on Ronnie Jarrett was given the go ahead by Johnny Apes Monteleone & Toots Caruso. Jarrett was a member of the LaPietra/Calabrese street crew. Jarrett was a fucking maniac just like his bosses & it was universally decided that he had to go.

Hatch Chiaramonti, same thing. Hatch was an Elmwood Park guy thoug, so the DiFronzos were the ones that took him out. Just a really volatile, uncompromising guy that, once again, had absolutely no place in the modern, business-savvy Outfit.

Thanks Junior

Nicely said.

I will however grant him that there's nothing wrong with questioning Accardo's position, because that remains a topic of debate. There is not much more than speculations about his position anyway. And if you look at the 1963 chart of the Chicago Outfit, you see that there is no clear hierarchy at the top like with the other crime families. So it could be that most of these guys formed the board of directors and pretty much shared the power, with Ricca and Accardo being first among equals, like Lilo wrote.

I believe in this theory also.

The way I see it, it's hard enough figuring the current mob today without arguing about things from the distant past. That said that it should be noted that saying Accardo was never the boss isn't necessarily the same thing as saying he didn't have the last word. After all, the thinking has always been Accardo had the final say even after he become consigliere. Something quite unique to him and that position.

http://www.americanmafia.com/cities/chicago.html

^^^^^^^^The info on there is just goofy & false.

Accardo being Ricca's advisor LOL, absolutely laughable.

i will agree with you on that americanmafia.com is outta conrol. their message boards are fuckin horrible.

First of all, Paul Ricca is ten years Joe Batters' senior. The younger guys don't school the older guys, that's not how things work in the Outfit (unless you're name is Moe Giancana). Ricca was the one that brought Accardo into the Outfit, that brought him up through the ranks.

I would think thats how things work in a lot of mafia families..but 21st century gangsters are using computers now to steal simply said...its not the 1970s anymore

The AmericanMafia forum went to shit about 5 years ago. I'm surprised it's still up.

IVY the forum is still in a different language I just signed on c'mon man

Paul Ricca used to dress up like a women on friday nights

If you're talking about the AM board, don't say I didn't warn you.

yeah that board is nothing but sensless rambles etc etc etc. that and arguments....it used to be good thats where i first started posting!

Me too Phatty, for years it was my real only source for Cosa Nostra news for years (not that my interest has always remained the same, it goes in spurts of interest and fascination). Rick Porello does have some great stuff though, love the dude.

yeah Rick is a good guy. it just seems that the posters on his board are douches! i enjoyed his books. that movie to kill the irishman was ok....nothing great but nothing bad either!

Yeah, I started out over there too. I remember there being some good threads time to time. I liked his website too, with the histories of the various families.