Measuring the Genovese' Strength

Everyone agrees the Genovese family are the strongest but I'm interested to gage their strength, so are they in decline or strengthening? Have they remained steady since the Commission case?


How many Capo's active? What's their reach into other states? Do they have any political connections etc etc
Thanks.

They have up to 20 capos, acting and real capos. Like all families they are in decline, but much slower pace. I am not sure in what other states they are active, but they may be the only family who have a national influence.

As Mukremin said, they are declining the slowest. They've had the least amount of guys flip, they control the largest bookmaking and loansharking rings in the New York/New Jersey area, and they have the most labor union racketeering activity left. In the 1980's a few reports cited 14 captains. In 2004 one news article cited 22 captains. Even though they are called the "West Side," because of their traditional power base in Manhattan and the Bronx, they are pretty well spread out. They have a big presence in Brooklyn and a fair amount in Queens. They are far and away the strongest in New Jersey, having several crews there while the others have 1 at most. There are still examples of the family engaging in public corruption in the state over the past decade. They also have the most presence in Westchester and the northern suburbs. Still some activity in Connecticut, Springfield, Mass, and south Florida.

Wow...so they had approx. 40 capi in the '80s and have "only" approx. 20 today?
How did that happend? They weren't hit that hard, weren't they?

You must be mistaken, its 14 not 40
no family had 40 capos.

Wonder what Barney is up to? Is he still on any kind of supervised parole or is he free to resume his trade of choice?

oooooooooops.
So they are actually doing better than the '80s??? man.

My thought too.

I heard in the past although families may have had less capos, the crews were massive, far bigger than today.

In 2009 one article listed Bellomo, Benny Mangano, Ernie Muscarella, and Larry Dentico as being on a rotating panel of leaders.

Yeah, back in the 1960's and before the Genovese family supposedly had 6 captains and they were the biggest family. As time went on, the number of captains increased in the families and the crews got smaller. Also, the number of captains in a family may not always equate to the number of fully active crews at a given time.

I'd figure it'd be harder for captains to keep a tight hold on their crews with more soldiers per crew. Though it seems less like a heirarchial structure with bigger crews; soldiers can go to the bosses easier.

Can we really say they have been in decline in say the last 20 years? I don't know about his argument but what about Raab's "Resurgence" theory? Obviously its nothing like the power in the 70s but from 1990-current have they declined much? From 2000-2011 there doesn't appear to be noticeable decline in that period.

what does his resurgence theory include then?

That after 9/11 FBI and government diverted their attention away from organized crime to Terrorist investigations allowing the mob to re-group.

This theory may not be true, its been debated in the last few years whether it realy had that much of an impact. They made it like the mafia was reborn etc, but thats not true.

That's not a theory, it's a fact. The Feds did shift manpower from OC to anti-terrorism after 9/11. But how much an impact it had on OC is debatable.

The Genovese family lost a number of things in the 1990's. The control of commercial waste hauling industry in NY they shared with the Gambinos. As well as their control of the Fulton Fish Market. Both of these were results of new regulations by the Giuliani administration. They also lost control of the Javits Convention Center. Also whatever interests they had in the Times Square porn business when Giuliani cleaned that up.

They're still the strongest family. But it's because they've declined the least. Not because they haven't declined at all or grown stronger. The last family to actually grow in strength was the Bonannos during the 1990's when the feds took their eye off the ball with that family.

Yeah, the indictments have continued to come. It may have given the mob somewhat of a breather, but the fact is, the feds don't need to devote as much manpower to it anymore. At least not compared to the 1980's and 1990's. But the concern is the manpower may be getting too small now. I think the FBI only has about 50 agents for the NY mob now and they've combined the Gambino and Luccheses squads together and the Colombo and Bonanno squads together.

So they still have one squad in total for the Genovese family? That alone shows which family is the strongest, at least to the government.

I'm no expert, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Genovese family started unraveling around 2020 the way the other families have. This is because the majority of the people running it are typically 70-85 years old. They won't be around to hold things together in ten years, and I doubt if today's young gangsters will be able to do as good a job as that generation seems to have.

I agree Ivan. Genovese family seems to be mostly old timers. When they are gone. Just saying

I should add that is what the original report by Capeci seemed to say. But other reports that followed said that the Genovese and Gambinos each have their own squads. The Colombos and Bonannos have a squad. And a third squad is for the Luccheses and Eastern European OC.

A good example may be the family's Springfield crew. Because of attrition and lack of recruits, a relatively young guy like Arillotta gets made and then flips.

That said, the family's power base in New York/New Jersey is different. These are the guys (that are still alive) that have been in the family's administration, the ruling panel, captains, or acting captains.

The median age is about 75. You have 4 in their 90's. 7 in their 80's. 16 in their 70's. 5 in their 60's. 1 in his 50's. And 1 in his 40's.

8 years away (2020) may be too soon where we see the widespread unraveling we have with the other families.


Michael "Mikey Dimino" Generoso - 93
Matthew "The Horse" Ianniello - 91
Venaro "Benny Eggs" Mangano - 90
Ciro Perrone - 90
Lawrence "Larry Fab" Dentico - 88
Mario Gigante - 88
Frank "Punchy" Illiano - 83
Dominick "Quiet Dom" Cirillo - 82
Salvatore "Sammy Meatballs" Aparo - 82
Albert "Kid Blast" Gallo - 81
Silvio DeVita - 80
Frederico "Fritzy" Giovanelli - 79
Charles "Chucky" Tuzzo - 78
John "Johnny Sausages" Barbato - 77
Ludwig "Ninny" Bruschi - 77
Joseph "Pepe" LaScala - 77
Renaldo "Ray" Ruggiero - 77
Anthony "Tico" Antico - 75
James "Jimmy from 8th St" Massera - 75
Alphone "Allie Shades" Malangone - 75
Anthony "Rom" Romanello 74
Michael "Tona" Borelli - 73
Rosario "Ross" Gangi - 72
Angelo "The Horn" Prisco - 72
James "The Little Guy" Ida - 71
Anthony "Tony Parkside" Federici - 71
Daniel "The Lion" Leo - 70
Pasquale "Patsy" Parello - 67
Ernest "Ernie" Muscarella - 66
Arthur "Artie" Nigro - 66
Michael "Mikey Cigars" Coppola - 65
Alan "Baldy" Longo - 61
Anthony "Tony D" Palumbo - 61
Liborio "Barney" Bellomo - 54
Joseph "Joe D" Dente Jr. - 48

Yeah, you're right. 2020 is probably too soon. But I still think it will happen eventually - say 2030 maybe? Even Bellomo will be 70+ then.

I just think it is inevitable that you will see less Quiet Doms and more Arilottas as the years go by and the ancient bosses die off.

I think we can all agree that the Genovese family has substantially benefited from the fact that these guys keep working as active mob leaders well into their 80s (or even 90s sometimes).

I dont see the logic of combining the Luccheses and other OC groups to one squad, but hey the feds know better.

And guys, dont forget each century, or lets say decade. Brings a good smart criminal, they will always come and take the reigns, but it will be few in numbers.

Good god those guys really are all up in the years. If you look at it there's a good chance more then half of the guys on that list Ivy posted will be dead in 10 years. Even the guys in their 60's have a decent shot at not being around. Alot of people die in their 70's. If Barney doesn't get locked up you can picture him running the show when these guys die off.

That's why I think the family will start to unravel. Those old guys are gonna start dropping like flies in the next 10-20 years, and they're probably the glue that holds everything together.

20 years? I think in 10 years 75% of those on Ivy's list will be burning in hell.

I doubt that many of them will live to 90. The odds are most of them are goners in 10 years or less if i was a betting man.

I imagine some of the guys in their 60s might in 20 years still be alive and "only" be in their 80s, but yes in 20 years the guys who are now in their 70s and 80s will mostly be dead, if not all of them.

They're going to have to start making guys like it's going out of style to replace the ones who are going to be dying off over the next decade or two. And there's a good chance they will end up making guys who shouldn't be made. Guys similar to the aforementioned Arilotta.

Again, I'm just speculating. Maybe they've got a bunch of worthy 30 year old associates waiting in the wings who are like Bellomo but even younger. I suppose that's possible too. But I think the scenario in which the old timers all die off and get replaced by knuckleheads is more likely.

Yes but 80% of that list are guys that are 70 or over NOW.

No guarantee they even make it to 80. Alot of people don't. And the ones in their 80's now will almost for sure be dead within the next 10 years. And the ones in their 90's now, i can't believe are even still alive. lol It's crazy these guys are still alive at this age. I don't know what they eat for breakfast but give me what they're having! lol.

Yeah why do these fuckers live so long? It seems like the average life expectancy for mob guys (well, the ones who aren't murdered) is about 10 years longer than "normal" people.

Anyway, it's going to be interesting to see how that family handles their coming "demographic crisis".

That's why I say that 2020 may be too soon to see the inevitable "unraveling." Their "demographic crisis," as Ivan called it. Which has already hit the other families to a much bigger degree. For whatever reason, a lot of these guys do live a long time. Well into their 80's and sometimes even 90's. And not only do they stay active, these Genovese guys will still do prison time even when they don't have many years left.

What is your opinions that the Genovese caught a break by 9/11? Did the FBI's re-focus on terrorists allow them to re-group? Personally I can't see it however the family in 2000 compared to 2011 is there any difference?? I would be interested to hear what areas they lost power in this period.
Also I know that some rackets they have been chased out of by the law but have't they also made some new rackets such as the cramming and stock fraud scams?

Nicky,

Yes, they've certainly picked up other rackets. That's how all business is, legitimate or not. You have to evolve or become extinct. But the loss of the garbage rackets and the Fulton fish market can not be understated. Those were devastating financial losses for the Genovese family. There was much more money to be spread around in those businesses. Yes, cramming and stock fraud shemes made a few people very rich. But the garbage business made A LOT of people very rich. There's the difference in a nutshell.

I still think the Bonano's under Massino were the strongest family in the country. If you look at the indictments from the late 90's and early to mid 2000's you see how they had their tentacles all over the place. They were making million in stock market scams with little Robert Lino, Frank Coppa and TC Graziano. Richard Cantarella was making tons of money in the parking lot business and other stuff. Jerry Chili was making huge amounts with boiler room scams and drugs. George from Canada big in the drug business. There was also other money makers like Baldo Amato, Anthony Spero, Patty from the Bronx, Nicky Mouth Santora and ofcourse Vinny Pills better known as Vinny Gorgeous amongst many others. They also had ties with the powerful Rizzutos in Canada.

They should bottle whatever it is those guys take. It's almost like being 75 is middle age to them. Not until they hit their 90's are they considered old. In my family most of the men are gone by their late 70's. The women do a little better.

Yup, bottle it and sell it. They can call it the "Genovese Life System". For when your 75 and in prison and you still have to last another 20 years to go dig up all your ill gotten loot.

Thanks PB, to clarify I don't think their getting stronger or anything, just trying to get some debate going over the subject, didn't want to come over as one of those guys who are in denial over the mobs decline!

It's true. But ironically, Gigante didn't quite make it to 80. I think he was 76 or 77.

Just a kid .

That's okay, Nicky. Mukremin's in enough denial for all of us .

It's always tragic when a guy dies young like that, right when his life is just about to really begin.

Dracula-esque gangster longevity notwithstanding, something like half the current family will be dead in 2020-2030. The Genovese family looks like a demographic time bomb to me. I guess the X factor in all of this is what kind of young associates are there waiting in the wings to be made. We'll see. This should be fun to watch unfold.

What's really weird about the longevity thing is that these guys don't live the healthiest lifestyles. This isn't exactly a bunch of vegans we're talking about here. Many (most?) of them are overweight smokers, yes?

Yeah, well I'm just curious as to how active some of these guys actually are. I remember hearing that Chinky Facchiano offered to do a hit while he was in his 90's, but I have to question how active the rest of these guys are. I mean, it's just hard to collect shylock money when your Depends come untucked.

These guys are too much.

Yeah, some people mellow with age. Some people just get meaner.

I am not in denial i was just pointing out that the Genoveses are the family who are in slow decline.
But sure, i sometimes refuse to see it

Keep in mind that those "old" Genovese captains are probably 'schooling' their younger underlings a lot better than what happens in the other families. I think the Genoveses will still be powerful 25 years from now.

exactly ... couldn't have said it better myself. The Genovese seem more like a "family" than any of the others, if that makes sense. You never, or rarely at most, hear about the cowboy shit that has happened in all of the other families, in the Genovese.

It seems like everyone there knows their role. They all have a role to play. Bosses/ruling panels seem to treat those positions with great responsibility, opposed to treating it like they hit the powerball. They also value the advisor position. Compare the Genovese Consigs in the last 20 years with Consigs in every other family. Sessa, Lastorino, Graziano? Guys who are barely 40 years old advising the administration? Sure those guys made money and know how to pull a trigger, but that's it. That position in every other family has degraded into mouth pieces/yes men for the boss. Not in the Genovese. The administration actually works for the best interests in the family opposed to their individual agendas.

Also success begets success. So if getting made into the Genovese means you've already been in the game for decades with multiple people vouching for you, and you have a lot on the ball...then you get schooled by guys who came up the same way? They have a better perpetuating cycle in place than any of the other families.

I know it sounds like Genovese fanboy'ism hyping up the "mystique" that surrounds the family, but regardless of how it sounds everyone's gotta agree that the Genovese guys are a different breed. Always have been and always will be.

Something else I've wondered too; guys from the Bronx and the city being "better". Anyone else notice this? The Genovese have always had a stronghold in the Bronx and the city, but even in other families guys from the BX and Manhattan always seem to be a little more traditional and have more on the ball. coincidence??? lol I was in a "mobbed up" restaurant a few years ago with my girlfriend, place was empty, but there was a drunk old guy at the bar arguing with his friend and the bartender that the "toughest and smartest guys in the whole state come from East Harlem"

The feds considered them to be about on par with the Gambinos for the #2 spot for a time. But they never supplanted the Genovese family; which was the bigger family, was more diversified, operated more widely, and had the involvement in labor unions and legitimate industries the Bonannos didn't.

Furthermore, it should be mentioned that the Genovese continued to be the top family despite ongoing pressure from law enforcement. The Bonannos were able to make a comeback because the FBI took away resources devoted to that family for about a decade. But once the pressure was back on, things started to crumble with the Bonannos.

It takes decades to build up an organization as powerful as the Genoveses. It took decades for the Genoveses to build up their network and to infiltrade unions and control many aspects of it.

To think the Bonannos could just supplant the Genoveses by doing the same within those ten years of Massino's reign is plain ignorance.