What's up with Italian and Albanian beef?

It seems every board I go or comment section of a website related to organized crime both Italians and Albanians seem to have a beef with each other, why is that?

Also why do Italians hate gypsies so much, what do they do?

I can't say much on the gypsy thing.

But the Italian/Albanian thing here on the forums goes back at least a few years. There used to be a few Albanian posters who would go from board to board and their agenda was to convince anyone and everyone that Albanian organized crime was taking over the world. They would start thread after thread about this theory or try to steer other threads onto that topic. It sort of being an ethnic pride thing for them, they were relentless and caused a lot of problems. It's died down since then but, every time some newbie brings up the whole Rudaj thing, it can sort of flare back up.

I am Italian, and we Italians do not hate Gypsies, at least without a good reason. My mother was a social worker, and followed the cases of minors Gypsies, who were induced to steal from their families in homes, to beg in the streets and other criminal acts, in Rome had discovered their slums in the middle of a park , that poor Rumanian, (Rumanian, not gypsy) in Naples murdered during a shootout between gangs was a person who earned an honest living sounding in the street with his wife, while the gypsies live in slums, rape, steal,make prostitute their daughters, so it's not without reason that we hate them.

I was born in Canada never lived in Italy but what my siblings an cousins say especially the ones who live over there is that every stereo type we have in Canada about Blacks ect being criminals is usually just a stereotype but regarding gypsies the stereotype is true. The vast majority of them are criminals and make a living raping, pillaging and plundering from the local people and you will be very hard pressed to find an honest gypsie who has a real job and goes to work like a normal person. I'm not making this up, just type in "Italian gypsie demographic" and you will see the stats"

The Albanians have some ruthless gangsters know doubt. Most 3rd world countries produce people who don't value human life so highly but Albania has about 4 million people in it's entire country. Italy has about 60 million so the numbers alone make it obvious Albanians will never surpass Italians as dominant gansters, nor doctors, nor construction workers nor anything hence the beef. Unfortunately the Albians on some of the boards idolize gangsters.

A friend of mine's uncle passed away in Italy. His will is being contested by his Albanian maid who claims she has the real will and that the uncle left everything to her. I know this doesn't answer the question totally, but if this is how Albanians are acting in Italy, I could see the beef.

In the Bronx's Little Italy every single Albanian act as a big time mafioso and some even say they are Italians...then once you speak to them in Italian they freeze, smile and say "Noo, I'm Albanaian man...".

Yeah, jhonnyrebel went nuts on streetsgangs.
He even dared saying that the Albos were the #1 group in Italy.
You kidding me???

Rudaj here, Rudaj there. C'mon...
Only a jounalist could fall for that.

I think that's because they are the "new Russians". Remember when (in the eary-mid-late '90s) EVERYONE was calling the LCN dead because of the Ruskies? LCN's still here and they are doing the same thing all over again.

As for the gypsys. 100% true. It's not about racism, is about reality.

From Milan to Rome, from Padua to Naples, the ethnic-gypsies live in slums, even not far from touristy places (like the Rome park Furio mentioned.)

My mom's from Northern Italy, and they are a big issue over there: every big city, Milano, Torino, Brescia, Bergamo, Verona, Padova, Vicenza, Mantova, Cremona, have gypsy slums (Italians call them "campi rom" literally "Roma camps").

In Sicily, where my dad's folks are from, they are not that big...'cos they don't wanna mess with the wrong guy or the wrong family...to later find out that they are connected.

The Albanians have never mounted a real threat to the Italians here in New York. It's very telling that the entire Albanian administration (and I'm using the term administration very liberally here) was taken down with a single indictment.

The rivalry started here in the Bronx in the Belmont-Arthur Avenue section of the borough (where I grew up and still own a residential building). The area was nearly 100 percent Italian from the early 1900s right through the late '70s and early '80s. That's when the Italians really started to assimilate and move to the suburbs (and why shouldn't we?).

Coincidentally, that's when the Albanians arrived in the neighborhood and started occupying 188th and 189th Streets. It became more of a "turf rivalry" than anything else. Had the Italians not been on their way to the suburbs already, the Albanians never would have come close to them in sheer numbers. Bottom line: There are ten times as many Italians in this world as Albanians. That all being said, I have several very good friends who are Albanian, and two Albanian families living in a building that I own on Hoffman Street.

There are very few Italians left in the area known as "Little Italy" today, although the stores and restaurants remain Italian and always will. The irony is that now the Albanians have even started to assimilate and move out to the suburbs. The neighborhood today is heavily Latino, a little Albanian, a little Middle Eastern, a little Black, and a sprinkling of assorted white kids who live off campus from Fordham University.

Gypsies are human garbage and should've been wiped out long ago. Professional con artists and thieves. Their children are taught how to beg for money at an early age, all to build big mansions in Romania that they never live in, just to show off their wealth. Most of the street mechanics are gypsies and I've been approached by almost a dozen, all Romanian, offering to fix my car on the street. Google them and look up their wikipedia entry. They are taught not to go to school, not to work, and other strange practices. Use a gypsy for target practice, good riddance.

I noticed when I watched the amanda knox trial and some pictures in prison, of her dancing, that she was the only white person in there. Are most people in Italian prisons, africant immigrants?

Most of europe hates Gypsies and they definitely hate all the africans who come into their countries with no money, education, values, and who can blame them. These people are ugly, stupid and criminally oriented and reproduce like cockroaches.

Keep your vile, racist crap off these boards. You won't be told again!

It seems like people in Europe discriminate Albanians based on few bad apples(gypsies) just like here in the states discriminate or make bad assumptions about blacks based on the street gangs or Latinos based on illegal immigration etc. I could see why they're so proud of their ethnic background...but it's funny how people glorify criminals.

hermit, you're wrong, one thing are the Albanians,and Gypsies are other. Albanians since 1991 have landed in Italy, as the Cubans in Mariel Bay, and have become targets of exclusion and discrimination, the gypsies are or from Romania, or from the former Yugoslavia, are two different things.Albanians are,'t gypsies.

How can a person be so hostile and racist? We all should know better since we share many things on these forums and we have different nationalities.

I don't agree with the racist post about Africans and I don't condone violence against one even gypsies but we should be able to call a spade a spade and we shouldn't be afraid to speak out against a particular demographic and their crimes and behavior for fear of being branded a "racist".

The reason why some Italians have problems with gypsies is because there are a lot of them living in Italy, Spain also. And many of them cause problems and that has nothing to do with racism from my part. It's just the way it is. And I can speak from first hand experience. But I won't go into detail because that obviously isn't allowed..

Amen to that. Racism is a bad thing and it should be opposed at all costs. But many people tend to overuse the "racism" argument/excuse when a discussion get's too sensitive or difficult for them.

Don't get me wrong, I respect the rules on this board. Just my humble opinion.

the gypsies are called the roma people which come out of india and are part of the indo-aryan tribe. macedonia has alot of them

No gypsies here in Alabama.....

damn you guys are racist. if you look up gypsie history you can see that some european countries brought them to this state. they where a little bit like the jews back then.
where i come from we got a lot of gypsie's but there arent any troublemakers they just play music to earn money.

we also have a gypsie problem here(netherlands) but seriously nobody really cares except for a few people who live in the same neighborhoods as them.

and wasnt there a time that italians and other immigrants where hated ?

yigido, if I were a jew, will accuse of racism, Gypsies and Jews are not the same thing, until the Jews were, in Italy and in Europe, how could they survive in the ghettos were doing what was forbidden to Christians, as usury but when they came out of the ghettos they integrated, not the gypsies, coming from Naples you can see their slums under the pylons of the motorway, there are some honest and are called''gypsy''Sinti, but I'm not afraid to say that the majority of gypsies are criminals, as to say that it is more likely to commit a crime is a black or a Latino, I'm not afraid of your accusations of racism also because what I say is true.

Actor Humphrey Bogart.

How are we being racist? We shouldn't be allowed to voice our concerns over criminal behavior? We should be forced to accept this? Look at the facts before you open your mouth. Yes Italians and most ethnic groups were disliked but Italians and other ethnics didn't actually raise there children to be criminals and encourage them not to get a job or go to school. Gyspies on the other hand do. I am not making this up this is a fact. Do you have elderly family member who live in fear of these people? I didn't think so. Educate yourself before you comment and bring in typical liberalism BS of "Everyone who doesn't love everyone and tolerate a demographic who's main function is a criminal enterprise is a racist". This is the exact mentality that causes violence to occur. Good people are afraid to speak up and voice there concerns because uneducated liberals are so quick to brand everyone as a "racist" and then a breaking point is reached and people react violently.


You're not ignorant you say? What about your comment of "I live in Holland, and we have gypsies but no one here is bothered by them so they must not be a problem in Italy and anyone who actually lives in Italy or has family members in Italy and disagrees with this is just a racist". Doesn't get much more ignorant than that son.

IMO it doesn't matter what race, color or creed someone is but criminal behavior should not be tolerated.

Well, not caring about an issue and leaving those effected alone, doesn't really mean that you don't have a problem, doesn't it?


Correction: we are still a nation of immigrants (approx. 45.000 a year) and we are still discriminated, especially in Central\Northern Europe and the UK. I know from the few blogs I follow on Italians living abroad...so it's a fact. Sadly.

They only difference is that we don't play the "race card".

look what im saying is you guys are calling a whole race a bunch of criminals. thats just wrong and no that isnt even a fact.

and here in holland they are criminals some schools dont even accept gypsie's anymore. they dont work or go to school but that isnt a reason to hate all of them and i aint afraid of them either.

what i dont understand either is how did the gypsies form gangs and get involved in crime in europe. while in the east their heaviest crime might be pickpocketing someone.

but seriously i read somewhere that those people where actually rich until the german states started slaughtering gypsie's.

@mussolini14: i am no uneducated liberal and dont call people uneducated because they have different opinions than you do. and i am no educated liberal either.

wikipedia: When the Romani people arrived in Europe, the initial curiosity of its residents soon changed to hostility against the newcomers. The Romani were enslaved for five centuries in Wallachia and Moldavia, until abolition in 1856.[57]

Elsewhere in Europe, they were subject to ethnic cleansing, abduction of their children, and forced labor. In England, Romani were sometimes hanged or expelled from small communities; in France, they were branded and their heads were shaved; in Moravia and Bohemia, the women were marked by their ears being severed. As a result, large groups of the Romani moved to the East, toward Poland, which was more tolerant, and Russia, where the Romani were treated more fairly as long as they paid the annual taxes.[58]

The arrival of some branches of the Romani people in Western Europe in the 15th century was precipitated by the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans. Although the Romanies themselves were refugees from the conflicts in southeastern Europe, they were mistaken by the local population in the West, because of their foreign appearance, as part of the Ottoman invasion (the German Reichstags at Landau and Freiburg in 1496-1498 declared the Romanies as spies of the Turks). In Western Europe, this resulted in a violent history of persecution and attempts of ethnic cleansing until the modern era. As time passed, other accusations were added against local Romanies (accusations specific to this area, against non-assimilated minorities), like that of bringing the plague, usually sharing their burden together with the local Jews.[75]

In the Habsburg Monarchy under Maria Theresia (1740–1780), a series of decrees tried to force the Romanies to sedentarize, removed rights to horse and wagon ownership (1754), renamed them as "New Citizens" and forced Romani boys into military service if they had no trade (1761), forced them to register with the local authorities (1767), and prohibited marriage between Romanies (1773). Her successor Josef II prohibited the wearing of traditional Romani clothing and the use of the Romani language, punishable by flogging.[77]

In Spain, attempts to assimilate the Gitanos were under way as early as 1619, when Gitanos were forcibly sedentarized, the use of the Romani language was prohibited, Gitano men and women were sent to separate workhouses and their children sent to orphanages. Similar prohibitions took place in 1783 under King Charles III, who prohibited the nomadic lifestyle, the use of the Calo language, Romani clothing, their trade in horses and other itinerant trades. The use of the word gitano was also forbidden to further assimilation. Ultimately these measures failed, as the rest of the population rejected the integration of the Gitanos.[77][78]

Other examples of forced assimilation include Norway, where a law was passed in 1896 permitting the state to remove children from their parents and place them in state institutions.[79] This resulted in some 1,500 Romani children being taken from their parents in the 20th century.[80]

Speaking only on Italy with regard to the gypsies: Sicilian people have been raped and robbed by every country since the beginning of time; which incidentally, is how the mafia was born. Sicilians have long memories. So, in that sense alone, they're not going to tolerate these criminals coming into their country. And yes, all Romas have been classified as criminals, whether they are or not. They REFUSE to assimilate themselves into the culture and that's their biggest downfall. Simple as that.

This all started with that video Furio posted. I said, 'one less gypsy, nobody will lose sleep over it.'. And nobody has. People in Italy are of the mindset: if it doesn't concern me or my family, I ain't interested and don't come to me with it.

And I agree 100%. That is the position of these boards, so don't argue whether or not it's right for here.

Nobody is saying you cannot discuss racism here. Some of the comments posted above are indeed thought-provoking BUT some are also out and out racism at its worst. My warning was to Palomita20 and to his/her disgusting racist comments. The first sentence in that message set the tone of the post and it went downhill from there. Vile prejudice like that will not be tolerated here.

I didn't mean you had no formal education but rather you lack info on the Italian gypsie problem because the only knowledge you have comes from your experience with gypsies in Holland. Then the first thing you say is "you guys are racist" when there was only 1 posts that was and you had you used the plural form of guyS which implies more than one of us was racist. IMO before you use that term you better have some good info and not just be basing it on your experience in a different country.



Wiki is often inaccurate, you know this. Anyone can post anything they want on there. Type in "Italian Gyspie" problem and check out the stats of the Italian Government has on Gyspies and crime. We are not talking about Romanian immigrants we are talking about Romanian Gypsies. There is a big difference.

You don't know how they formed criminal gangs? How about they raise their children to be professional criminals and encourage them not to work or go to school. Joining a gang would come naturally to someone with that type of upbringing.

I certainly agree and was worried you thought I was being racist as that was not my intention at all. I don't like violent groups who prey on honest folks regardless of their race, color or creed and wouldn't condone violence against them but believe they should be imprisoned or deported.

well i guess youre right my apologies. gypsie's here are relatively low in population or else we would have the same problems as you guys have. here they are only in a few neighborhoods. and yes everyone hates them there and wants to get them out. and when i said no one actually cares im reffering to people who live outside those neigborhoods.

most of those troublemakers are called turks or moroccans because they cant tell the difference only when they get caught or when people live with them they know they are gypsie's and not any other immigrant. and seriously i have seen this happening that people mistake them for turks or moroccans. and also i didnt have any troubles with them yet but in my old neighborhood they shot 2 gang leaders down because they where acting like cowboys.

FWIW, I totally agree with Yigido, and dont think he should feel like he has to apologise at all. It's not "liberal" stance, its not a "bleeding heart" stance, it DECENT HUMAN BEING stance. You dont write off an entire race for the criminality of a part.

Ive read this thread a bunch of times, and every time I start typing a reply then think "You know what? I dont want to get involved." But this is too much.

Ive spent time in Southern Spain and read up on a lot of things, but its always a "friend of a friend" story. Ive listened to old Italian guys rail at the "bloody gypsies", full of a million dastardly stories, but when you press them for stuff thats actually happened to them, they basically all (well the two old Southern Italian gentleman in question)admit that actually, besides one time they gave some gypsy a few lira, they'd actually had nothing to do with at all with Gypsies in general, besides knowing a couple of boys from a Gypsy family that YES actually lived in a house and YES actually had a dad who worked for a living and YES they had a crush on their hot, older gypsy sister.

Basically, they admitted that they'd pretty much just inherited their prejudices. From parents that inherited theirs against a people that "did things different". Its bullshit.

Im definitely not saying there's not a high prevelance of crime. Hell, in Andalucia I bought my drugs of an old Gypsy woman who had her extended family about her pretty much 24/7. A pretty Gypsy girl once smiled and gave me a beautiful rose in Seville. I smiled graciously and thanked her in my broken Spanish as she smiled back. As I started walking on, a heavy hand fell on my shoulder and I turned to be facing a large, hairy guy who angrily demanding something or other (I gathered that much) Luckily my Spanish grandfather was on scene to flip the guy a $2 coin (well, euro coin) and tell him to bugger off and stop trying to scam his yokel tourist grandson with his sexy daughter. On the beach at Cadiz, a Gypsy looking guy had a bunch on stuff on a beach towel for sale. I bought a shitty pair of headphones off him for three euro. They lasted 2 days.

Whoa. These guys are frickin criminal masterminds.

Oh yeah. I forgot to mention I had my pocket picked one time. When I realized, my family laughed about how the Gypsies saw me coming from a mile away. (Mrs Meatballs didn't think it was so funny . Besides a grand total of 7 euro's, I also lost a stick of bubblegum I had placed in there for safekeeping. And who knows? I could have just dropped the damn wallet. I bet there's many guys that have otherwise lost something somehwere in Europe and just known IT HAD TO HAVE BEEN THOSE DAMN GYPSIES! NO WAY IM DUMB ENOUGH TO LET SOMETHING FALL OUT OF MY POCKET!

I hear what you're saying. You're saying "Meatballs, you dont know. You live in bloody Australia. Just cuz you went to Spain for a bit dont mean you know Gypsies." WRONG. When I was growing up I was best mates with this Romanian kid. And he, his siblings and his parents all strongly identified as Roma, as gypsies. They didn't live in tents, they didn't "teach their kids to rob and steal", they had their kids taught at schools, their father worked as a boilermaker and their mother made great food. These were great people. And lest you think Id mistake one family unit as indicative of more beyond that, there was an extended family pretty much spread throughout Australia, comprising a number of families, that got togetgher and did family stuff like NORMAL PEOPLE. Because despite what part of them are known for, they are normal people.

Im sorry to rant. I dont mean to. But the fact is there's tangents everywhere. For many years there was a deeply ingrained governmental prejudice against Australian Aborigines, basically accusing them of everything people assign to Gypsies, and cannabalism. In the States...well we all know too well what went on there. In China, it was the ethnic Manchurians. By the arguments onthis board, one could write off the entire Italian peoples since "they created the mafia, and some of them teach it to their kids". The entire German people could be written off, because, well, they were all basically cool with Hitler at one stage. By thst logic, every race could be written off worthless, no good criminals or otherwise douchebags.

Come on man, are you serious re: Italian discrimination in Central EU/UK? I live in London - my parents are immigrants from Napoli and I have never experienced anything close to discrimination...my 17 year old cousin (born and raised in Napoli) is working in a restaurant in Copenhagen and he is having the best year of his life...). Maybe you have a few problems here and there but nothing comparable to how we were treated 100 years ago I think.

But the gypsy situation is hard to explain to people who simply aren't acquainted or familiar with it. It's very simple - today, in Europe, gypsies are absurdly over-represented in every area of crime. They often prefer not to work simply because it is just easier and more profitable to shift into crime. Of course, it's unfair for the young gypsies as this is the only life that is presented to them, but it makes it hard for Europeans to say 'Oh come on, they're really nice guys, it's their culture so leave them alone'.
For example, two months ago, my mother was in Paris travelling on the metro...her handbag was stolen by two gypsy (Bulgarian) kids; fortunately they were stopped by security, but it's just a reference point for why many people have negative views on gypsies.

"we are still a nation of immigrants (approx. 45.000 a year) and we are still discriminated, especially in Central\Northern Europe and the UK. I know from the few blogs I follow on Italians living abroad...so it's a fact. Sadly"

italy is not a nation of immigration anymore, except a few doctors living the country, there are only internal emigration today from south to north italy and somebody in germany
there is only little discrimination today in some countries but nothing compared to it used to be since 1930s to 1970s in germany, swiss, france, belgium etc...
that's because the huge immigration from italy is ended in the 70s

No worries man. I don't live in Italy, I'm actually a Canadian but both my parents were born there and I have a sister who moved back there and many cousins who honestly live in fear of Gypseis. If they would limit their crimes to theavery people might be more tolerant of them ( not that stealing is good) but they are getting more and more violent in their behavior.
What's this about 2 gang leaders getting shot in your old neighborhood? Can you elaborate a bit ?

Kind of Ironic that I am telling people to be less liberal and I just voted for the Liberal party of Ontario a couple days ago in the provincial election.

I live in Holland myself and I can confirm that gypsis do or used to be a problem here, at least were I live.

Whoa Meathead, a bitch be needing to pop a pill to get thru that novel you posted. Theyre gypsies, let it go.

I have to disagree with you on this. Maybe it was like that on wikipedia many years ago, but nowadays wikipedia is heavily controlled by semi-scientists 24/7. The good thing about this is that many articles are very well sourced and spot-on accurate. The bad thing is that these guys behave there like dictators.

But on some sections of wikipedia, organized crime in particular, the "wild west" still excist as wikipedians aren't interested in those particular subjects.

No one is saying it is not right to be tolerant and of course it is not fair to brand an entire people as criminal do to the behavior of a few but the fact is the vast majority of Gypsies in Italy are criminals and raised to be criminals. This is a fact. Find me a stat that shows otherwise and I will view it with an open mind and to brand us as racist for speaking out against this type of behavior was wrong and Yidigo saw this and was decent enough to apologize. Aside from a murderer, rapist or child abuser a racist is about the lowest form of life and most people would be offended to be called that. I have nothing against romanians but I do have a problem with Romanian Gypsies assaulting my relatives, forcing them to relocate from a house they lived in for 2 decades and people being afraid to speak out about it for fear of being branded as a racist or bigot. Mabey the 2 old Italians you talked to were exaggerating but I talk to Italian of all ages every day and everyone one will tell you they have been scammed or assaulted more than once by this criminal group. I would be happy to add you as a friend on facebook or skype and link you with Italian who deal with this problem every day so you could be enlightened beyond the opinions of the 2 older gentlemen you spoke with.

You said yourself it is not fair to paint everyone with the same brush based on the actions or opinions of a few but is not that exactly what you are doing by grouping all Italians together because of the opinions of the 2 elderly guys who spoke with? Is my sister lying and embellishing when she tells me that she has to take a different route to work every day because she is afraid of getting swarmed and mugged again when walking through the park? Did it really just happen to a friend of a friend of hers because that was the case with the 2 old guys you spoke with?

In all honesty up until a year or so ago, I did not know that Gypsies were from Romania. I had no idea where they were from and still had the same opinions as I do now and would have the same opinion regardless of if they were from Africa, Canada, Asia, Australia or all of the above.

what does you being friends with a Romanian family in Australia have to do with the Italian gypsie problem?

Saying that the gypsie problem in Italy is hyperbole and exaggerated because you knew a nice family in Australia who followed the rules is no different that someone saying all gyspies are crooks because they got mugged by a few.

The fact is in Italy many do live in tents and the majority are criminals. There are nice Romanians here in Canada too and I don't think we have a single gypsie but that doesn't change what is going on in Italy.

Not all Romanians are gypsies either. There are plenty of Romanian Canadians and we don't have any gypsies.

Mickey you know I respect your opinion and appreciate your knowledge and view, just some food for thought and I am interested in what you have to say to my response.

mussolini i don't know where your parents are living in italy, i bet in north italy where the vast majority of gypsies roma actually are living, because in the south they are absolutely nothing even in pretty crime underworld except some gypsies sinti affiliated to ndrangheta but they are italian citizens
gypsies can be a problem only for who live next them maybe, but they don't kill like you claim, just look at statistics
every single european country has some gypsies community, included the poorest but i bet they are not a real problem in an y european country except maybe romania and some east country where they are very big in numbers

@Mussolini14: there was this guy called dragan nicolic a gypsie from yugoslavia back then. he was a bigtime leader of gypsie gangs in western europe. in holland he started eating in restaurants and then he wouldnt pay for the food and he extorted those joints. so they once tried this turkish restaurant who was connected. you know after a while of fihgting and yelling these guys threatened to shoot them. the turks armed up and the gypsies 2 of them dragan and someone called s.nardi started spraying the joint. the turks shot them down pretty fast and killed them. the gypsie's wanted to retaliate but the bigger boys in the turkish underworld prevented this. another man claimed he shot them out of self deffence because he was ordered so by the mafia. he got a few years i think(btw here in holland murder sentences are like 10 to 15 years but some occassions lower the sentence in this case self deffence. terrorism excluded). my father was young and hanging around those place back then and he told me this. and the man who plead guilty was heavilly connected with facist-nationalist turks called the grey wolves i happen to know his son. in general turks and moroccans beat the crap out of gypsies here because they act like cowboys around them.

and for the rest of you gypsies are called roma because thats a different race in the gypsie race. to compare it see it as the italian people who speak different language's. they come from north-west india somewhere in afghanistan and pakistan. they where massacred and attacked repeatedly by turkish tribes and sometimes on bigger scale by turkish empires. this led to them escaping this area and running of east and west primarily to the west. and trough the years the nomads(turks and mongols) forced them to flee to the west where their adventures in europe started. read what i posted before about the gypsie wikipedia page that caused them to immigrate more to east-europe where they where tolerated.

in turkey there are 500,000 gypsie's and in italy 130,000 according to wikipedia. in turkey they arent hated that much they are even respected musicians and in europe they are criminals that is the thing that i dont understand. there a lot of them trying to scam tourist and a few probably pickpocket those poor tourist to but thats really all of it. i think also the main reason they arent feared in turkey is that the turks pretty much dont accept that stuff so they answer with violence on a bigger scale.

oh also the gypsie's are smart criminals. in paris they had some nice scams. one involved acting like deaf and mute. they would show you papers saying they are deaf and mute and there would be an autograph space on these papers. it said you would donate a few euro's and then you should sign the papers. here is the trick they see it when you grab your wallet than they hug you with 10 kids and take it frome where you put it in. there was this hot gypsie who ran after my friend to pull this scam but my friend was yelling at her and then those deaf and mute kids where laughing together with us and yelling at their sister and our friend. a while later she stopped and walked away . funny thing is we saw her one day later then she made fun of our friend about the way he yelled at her.

My sister lives in Fano which is where she was robbed. I don't know that they kill, never said that but they intimidate and threaten. They cut a hole through my sisters mother in laws purse and emptied the goods. The fact that they could get so close with a sharp object is frightening for women, considering it could have easily been them that was cut. ( A man of my stature and toughness wouldn't be scared even if they had machine guns, but we're talking about women here). I kid I kid.

Interesting stuff man thanks for sharing.

So basically you missed my whole point. The fact is, I never denied there are criminal gypsies. I even concede that they're over represented criminally. So hate the criminals. Dont hate a whole race. And nothing for nothing, I think yigido only "apologised" in the face of all these retorts. You dont seem to understand the idea of racism. The idea of that there are inherent traits which justify discrimination. I fail to see how you guys are not being rascist when you refuse to admit there may be some "good" gypsies, because you know they are all "bad".

And as for one gypsy family in Australia, once again, my point was that wasn't just one family, there's a whole extended family comprising many family units. And these were good people, who like most other migrants, came for a better life.

And actually, I totally agrtee with m2w on this one, despite having had differences in opinions before.

Mussolini, Im not trying to diminish the fear or anger you or your sister in law felt. But if it had happened to be a black guy that had done it, would you be on here railing against black dudes? If it had been some white guy, would you be railing against "those damn crackers"? I dont think you would, but because you're so sure it must have been a gypsy, you have no problem writing them off as a people. Ask the Italian guys you mentioned, actually press them a little, and find out how many times they themselves have actually been robbed or scammed. You'll probably find that the vast majority are actually just going of things they've heard, but "know to be true!"



These are simple scams pulled the world over, by many different ethnicities. Sure some of them a deviously clever, but its not high crime. This is opportunistic.

So take a pill bitch. And its Meat BALLS.

C'mon guys and gals.... everyone chill.

We are talking about gypsies in Italy Micky. I am not arguing that there are no nice Romanians. I have pointed out that there are plenty of honest hard working Romanians in Canada who I live amongst just as I'm sure there are plenty where you live in Australia. What goes on where you live or in Canada or in China has nothing to do with what is happening in Italy.

In Italy there aren't Blacks, Whites or anyone else in droves looking to scam. My sister didn't have to change her route to work because she was swarmed daily by blacks or whites. She was swarmed by gyspies however. Blacks, Whites, Italians ect don't raise their children to be better scammers as far as I know. Gypsies do IN NORTHERN ITALY. Sure there are some good ones but the fact remains the vast majority of them are criminals in Italy. If the vast majority of blacks, whites, chinese or Italians were scamming people you can bet your bottom $ I would be ranting against them. That's where the liberalism becomes too much for me to bear. The whole idea of " even though most are criminals we should keep our opinions to ourselves because some are good people". And yes Meatballs I talk to Italians young and old EVERY DAY and EVERY one has a story about how them or their significant other has been robbed and scammed. Despite what you insist on believing this doesn't only happen to "friends of friends" and is a serious epidemic being debated in PARLIAMENT IN ITALY. You really think it would make it that far if this was all hyperbole and only happening to "friends of friends"? Do you talk to Italians every day? Or are the only ones you have talked to on this subject those 2 old guys you mentioned?
For the record I don't hate anyone group, not even criminal gypsies but if 80% of a group are criminals ( which they are if you believe the Italian government stats) I'm sorry but I'm not giving the 20% the benefit of the doubt. I doubt you would be so inclined to either if your mother, sister or daughter had to live with them.

Clearly all just hyperbole eh? The Italian government has a hidden agenda when they release states showing 80%+ of gyspies in Italy are criminals. After all there are nice ones living in Australia and Canada so there is no way the majority could be criminals in another part of the world right?

Berlusconi should have just given them all a pass because some are nice and there are law abiding gypsie families in other parts of the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO6CFSosqKE

http://www.eu-forums.com/hot-topics/the-gypsies-in-italia-problema-zingari-gypsy-problem-t101.html

Nah you're missing my point. Hate criminals. Dont hate the people. Period. Said criminals should face the full brunt of the law.

Beyond that, I detected a change in tone in that last post. I think I sounded like I was attacking you personally. As you know, discussion can get heated. You're a good guy, I like your posts here and on RD, and we've had some good discussions. As far as your own views, they're exactly that. Your own views. You're as welcome to them as I am. But to write off an entire race is just wrong, and I stand by that.

Once again, I never said there was not a criminal problem there. But you rope off the mafia and Italians despite a portion them being criminally inclined and yes, raising their kids to be criminals. I know you're fully aware of the familial structure of the Calabrian mobsters, and to a lesser extent the others. The problems related to OC and LCN has come before parliament in Canada too. Does that mean that its so bad we must all hate Italians?

And for the record, no I dont know much about the situation in Northern Italy beyond, like you, what Ive read. But statistics never paint the whole picture, and every culture needs their scapegoat. To wit; Italy has the gypsies.

M2w, ciccogol you've offended me.
So you are basically calling me a liar? Why?
What makes you think that I would post false and unrelible facts?
Why would I do that?

This is not OC, where everyone can say what they please, these are issues that are documented annually.

Once again, let's go in order:

1.
So you guys are saying that you got more facts that the Italian Minister of Foreign Affairs, College researchers, journalists and analysts?
These groups\institutions have stated that every year 50.000 Italians move out.
For today's Italy...it's pretty dern high, since that it's in better shape compared to the 1890s-1940s.

I don't lie to people and you can check on this very forum that every time I talk about the Italian Diaspora (past & present) I DO KNOW MY FACTS.

The "brain drain" is one thing...to that you gotta add all those Italians that move out without degree.

You don't have to come to America or travel as far as Australia to be living out of Italy.
Many go eslwhere in the EU simply because they don't need a visa to get a job.

If you read Italian and wanna get some more info...knock yourself out:

http://www.informagiovaniguspini.it/leggi_notizia.php?id=114

Cheers.

2.
No more discrimination? Are YOU serious?
Is it like in the '20s? Uhm obviusly not...BUT you don't have to be lynched by an angry mob to be discriminated.

Have I said that EVERY Italian is discriminated? Nope.
But just because your family wasn't...it doesn't mean that it can be hapening to someone else.

From what I know, not just from my own family experience, friends, etc...but mostly from the hundreads of threads that I've read around the web in the past few years, the discrimination against the Italian people is still high.

We are though, so you won't see a bunch of Italians complaining (except those loser UNICO and NIAF) on the streets.

Again, I love to get people to know about this issues, so, M2W and CICCOGOL, if you're interested about the contemporary Italian Immigrant experiece there are SEVERAL great blogs that you can check out.

Hope that this clears things out.

This is a very sensitive issue I didn't mean to offend anyone and if I am breaking the rules in my posts let me know and I will stop.

What % of Italains are involved with OC? 1%??? What % of Gypsies in Italy are involved in crime? It's over 80% according to the Italian Government. Huge difference. If 80% of Italians were actually involved in OC, I would expect to be discriminated.

I am not mad at you Micky, and I apologize if I am being offensive towards you. Like I said this is a sensitive issue for me. My sister has had to deal with this first hand and my brother in travels often and is gone for weeks at a time so I worry very much for my sister and niece. Canada is a very safe country to live in much like Australia and Italy still is too relatively speaking but 10 years ago I would have never had to worry about a loved one getting robbed in a place like Fano. Unfortunately because of the gypsie problem this is not the case anymore. If I had no relatives living their perhaps I would espouse the same view point as you but it is very difficult to be tolerant when something happens to a loved one.

Could you please direct me to the source that states the "80%" figure like you claim? I checked out the links you posted earlier, and in fact the first post on that EU forum states that "In fact the Gypsy problem in Italia results from Italia's policy towards the Gypsies, and not from the "inferiority of their race.", and most of the other posts seem to agree to varying degrees.

The only similar "official" stat. Ive been able to find was a 1990 estimate by police in Budapest that claimed "70 to 80% of all [property] crimes are committed by gypsies". Even then it was conceded that the majority were dirt poor. Furthermore, "A History of The Gypsies in Eastern Europe and Russia" by David M. Crowe states that the "most criminally inclined" gypsy (the Vlach Roma) actually account for only 28% of the total gypsy population.

Once again, Im not saying that there are not many criminal gypsies, but that is not the be all and end all of the race. And nothing for nothing, but the right wing government of Berlusconi has drawn criticism before for its stance on gypsies, especially relating to the firebombing of gypsy camps in Naples in 08, after a local woman claimed "the gypsies tried to take my baby!" Besides, Berlusconi isn't exactly the most upstanding public leader IMO, considering his numerous dalliances and lies.

Obviously were not going to agree, Mussolini, but Im interested to learn where you get those figures from.

Since people cannot act civil here, this thread is now closed. Congratulate yourselves on that!

One more time, and suspensions WILL be handed out liberally.