Is there still an active mafia family in Detroit?

I know many on this board say they are dormant but this article claims otherwise.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2011/06/24/organized-crime-in-detroit-forgotten-but-not-gone/

thoughts?

Thank you for your time

my thoughts is yes. on a large scale no......i believe the last major indictment against the detroit partnership was in 96 not that long ago we know for sure they were still fairly active if they were being indicted. Jack Tocco is named the current boss. Ive been told and read that they may have somewhere bewteen 20 and 30 made members making them prob the smallest semi active family around. so IMHO i wouldn't call them dormant.

with only 446 posts I dont think you`re qualified to speak on this matter

how old are you 13? 14? like seriously people are coming here to discuss and share knowledge. and socialize. not here to bicker like young children. honestly let it die dude. your gonna get banned.

That article was written by Scott Burnstein, who posts over on the Real Deal. I suppose it depends on how you define both "active" and "family."

Activity? The last significant bust involving the Detroit mob was back in 2006. Mainly a gambling and loansharking case. Then you have to go back 10 years to 1996 when Tocco and a bunch of other guys were rounded up.

Family? Scott believes there is 40-50 members there. I have to disagree for any number of reasons. First, the families in New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia and Chicago each have about 50 members but far more activity than Detroit. And I don't buy the argument that Detroit has found a way to avoid law enforcement detection while every other family hasn't. Second, in 1996 the max estimate what 30 members there. It's highly unlikely that a family like Detroit could increase that much in size over the past 15 years. Scott cites rumors about a couple of making ceremonies in recent years but it's not much to go on.

When judging which families are still viable, I choose to use the RICO standard - an ongoing pattern of crimes conducted in behalf of an organization. In my view, Detroit doesn't meet that standard anymore.

but still if they are bookmaking and gambling wouldn't they have to be some sort of active.....? i mean active on a tiny scale but still active!

Sure. I don't think Detroit is as big or operating on the level Scott says but one could certainly make that argument.

While I usually agree with Ivy's post I have to disagree with the assumption that because there are not as many arrests as being proof of less criminal activity. Do you really think all criminals have the same intelligence base and are equal in terms of being able to avoid prosecution? Do you really think all law enforcement agency's and the people in charge of them are all equal in intelligence and ability? Just as with any other job and regardless of if you or on the law enforcement side or the criminal side, some people are much better at doing there job than others. The lack of arrests could easily mean the Detroit mafioso are better at avoiding detection, or it could mean that the Detroit law enforcement agents are simply not as good as the ones in NY or Chicago, or that the person in charge wants to focus resources on other criminal elements such as street gangs rather than on senior citizen mafioso. Are all lawyers and detectives equal in ability? Despite what politicians might tell you men are NOT created equal. Another factor one has to look at is where the resources of local law enforcement are allocated. If I am not mistaken Detroit has one of the highest murder rates in the USA and has a very high amount of gang activity which would demand more attention from law enforcement than say a place like Providence.

If there were 30-40 cities with active OC Families it would be much easier to draw a median and make assumptions based on average but there are what 5-6 North American Cities with OC families? I'm sure all the active families have different strengths and weaknesses and perhaps in comparison to the other families, Detroit has figured out a way to avoid detection by law enforcement that the others have overlooked, at least for the time being.



Of course this is all speculation and is in no way meant to be disrespectful towards Ivy

Scott Burnstein knows his stuff Detroit has a Street Boss in Bettween the Admin and Capos which adds an extra layer of protection also Tocco has a college education probably the only LCN BOSS, lives in one of the most corrupt crime ridden cities in America. Did I mention the leftist One Party system
that allows Machine Politics to exist. Once u have A one party state the sky is the limit We saw this with clinton in arkansas, Prendergast in missouri, Tammany Hall in NY etc
So I would say that they`ve got plenty more to work with in detroit and it`s definatly a unique situation for any LCN family. not to mention that there is a tight intermarriage and family component to the family and its the only LCN family that is currently run by a descendant of the founder(his son) with the same last name. Plus He`s an avid Freemason (high Degree i hear) also he own`s through a front, THE local Golf And Country Club.

I have no strong opinion on the number of formal members of what remains of the Detroit Family. In some very real aspects I don't think it matters so much to the victim of an extortion as to whether the criminal doing the deed has gotten his varsity letter or not.

But the point about non-Mafia violence in Detroit proper and some surrounding areas is an excellent one. It's not even gang violence so much as it is just stupid people with guns. In any event this keeps local Detroit police very very busy.

There's also enough non-mob corruption and theft in SE Michigan that I think the FBI would be kept busy investigating/prosecuting that. You combine that with a local (small) mob family that has always kept its head down, compared to the East Coast organizations, and it's not too surprising that to the extent they still exist as a formal organization, there's not a tremendous level of federal interest.

This is not to say they don't still have interests. A few of the local waste disposal/towing companies have some rather interesting back stories.

How do we measure mob activity in a certain area? Articles, news stories, government reports, hell, even anecdotal accounts by people on the internet have their place. But for my money, the strongest indicator is indictments. Why? Indictments are a result of law enforcement attention, which in turn is a result of the level of activity of a family. It's pretty simple...

Little activity = Little LE attention = Few Indictments

More activity = More LE attention = More Indictments

And the indictments over the past decade have proven this. The most is in New York, followed by smaller families in New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia, and Chicago. Then very little elsewhere.

Has Detroit somehow managed to avoid law enforcement scrutiny simply because they're smarter than everyone else? I'd say there's less law enforcement scrutiny because the mob in Detroit isn't as big or operates on the level some believe it still does.

But hey, maybe I'm way off and the Milwaukee family has perfected evasion of law enforcement since there's been no significant activity there since the 1980's.

I've always been curious about the Detroit Partnership. I know their real heyday was during the 70's; anyone remember Tony Giacalone?

One thing about Detroit, it's the union capital of the world. Makes New York look like fascist Italy. And yet one hears very little regarding the Detroit Partnership and union corruption, unlike such as the case in New York, the king of mob, union corruption. Makes you think, I know the Tocco's are very wealthy, but is/was the family ever that powerful?

I don't think the chances are very high, but you never know with tight knit groups like that. Tocco is one of the most politically connected wiseguys in America. I'd say that fact alone makes the Detroit family a fairly powerful unit. Of course, the man could very well be retired and doesn't want anything to do with anything. Maybe we'll find out some day.

All it takes is for the guy who calls the shots to say " you know what, I feel street gangs, and drug dealing is the biggest threat to the public so I am going to allocate the majority of our resources to fight that element" and immediately you have a recipe for less indictments involving the mob. Combine that with Tocco education and political connections and that could very well explain the lack of mob indictments for the Detroit LCN family. Of course the other explanation could be they are in fact dormant or extinct. The point is lack of indictments does not in any way mean lack of crime. By that same logic Tony Accardo and Carlo Gambino must have been less involved and lower in rank that Rusty Rastelli because Accardo and Gambino never spent a day in jail, whereas Rastelli was indicted numerous times and spent half his adult life in the can. As a matter of fact, Gambino must have been a law abiding citizen who was unfairly stereotyped for his Italian heritage because if he really was a godfather surely he would have been indicted more and done some time.


I'm no expert on crime but I don't think Milwaukee compares to Detroit in terms of gangs and violence.

Furthermore there were mob related indictment as recently as 2006 and Detroit still has a relativity tight nit Italian community and a little Italy, unlike Milwaukee.

If Detroit still has a viable crime family left, shouldn't there be tape recordings of wiseguys in New York talking about things related to Detroit?

New York and Detroit always maintained close ties over the years, no?

Because of Joe Zerilli, the Detroit family had a close relationship with the five families and that was strengthened when Hoffa came to power. It's easy to connect Anthony Giacalone to Anthony Provenzano. Johnny Dio also had a strong presence in Detroit, mainly because of Hoffa. Things have changed very much since that time and I doubt very much New York has any connection to Detroit these days. It would surprise me.

Eh? Can you explain what you're referring to here? There's no longer a Little Italy area within Detroit proper. Detroit has about a 10% Caucasian population, most of whom are "Anglos" descended from people who moved up from the South, a few "hipsters" and Middle Easterners. There are likely still some Italians but most have assimilated and/or moved out to the suburbs long ago.

And with 90 posts what does that make you??? Kindergarden kop?

Sorry I stand corrected. I just remember whenever I cross the US border seeing many yards with Italian flags but upon further investigation it is Niagara Falls I am thinking of an not Windsor/Detroit. According to the article there were indictments in 2006 though.

at one point in time they were. pretty much all because of hoffa.

Exactly. The bookies and loansharks that mostly make up what's left of the Detroit mob isn't a big investigative priority.



How much time would have to pass without any evidence of significant activity before you wrote the family off?

That's a good question Ivy, I'm really not sure. What do you think? The last indictment was in 2006, at least according to the article in the OP.

well look at the buffalino crime family....barely anything outta them so should we write them off? i really don't believe that lack of indictments and arrests means there's no crime going on or activity. going back to the orginal question here....i think it is safe to call the detroit partnership non dormant.

There was the big bust in 1996...15 years ago. Then a smaller bust in 2006...5 years ago. So that's 2 significant cases over the past 15 years. Then, if you want, you can throw in a 2009 case where some guys with ties to the family (Mitchel Karam, Ghazzi Mani, etc.) were arrested in a point shaving scheme. Or Giuseppe and Girolamo D'Anna beating up a rival restaurant owner earlier this year.

The point being, the level of discernible mob activity in Detroit - or lack thereof - is more comparable to places like Buffalo or Kansas City than it is Chicago or Philadelphia.



The Bufalinos? D'Elia was supposedly the last member left. They are long gone. And nobody said what's left of the mob in Detroit is dormant. Just that it isn't as big or as active as some believe it to be.

i think thats all the further we can take this topic lol detroit is still somewhat active on a very small scale....watch tommrow the partnership will have huge indictments tommrow morning just to show us lol

i think ivyleague is right
sure the feds today don't pay so much attention to small family in detroit buffalo etc. but in the 80s when the whole lcn was under radar they did and according to police reports detroit had 30 members or so in the late 80s and there is not any reason to think it's stronger today
the states are not like italy where a mafia family can become stronger in just a few years because they have tons of manpower
how many italians are living actually in detroit? i don't think so many
new york is another history i heard place like staten island have 250.000 italians living there 50% of local population

I think Detroit is now probably a "glorified crew".

What other places besides NY have a relatively high population of Italians?

Baltimore, Maryland; Boston, Massachusetts (the "North End"); Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; Providence, Rhode Island; St. Louis, Missouri; Chicago, Illinois; Cleveland, Ohio; Buffalo, New York; and Kansas City, Missouri. New Orleans, Louisiana

YES. MOST DEFINATELY. IVY LEAGUE (AKA...wiseguy) IS GROSSLY UNDERESTIMATING THE MOTOR CITY BOYS -as usual. SCOTT B. IS DEAD ON ACCURATE. PERIOD.

The Milwaukee family is also grossly underestimated. Even though there hasn't been a mob case there since the 1980's, they're still going strong under the radar.

See what I did there?

It's easy to make claims, especially on the internet. Providing demonstrable evidence is another matter. But believe what you want.

And someone like Scott B. hasn't given demonstrable evidence?

I'll start with my disclaimer once again. I like Scott. He's long provided a lot of good info about Detroit over on the Real Deal forum. And he's always been cordial, even when we've disagreed. But that said, to answer your question, no he really hasn't. At least nothing beyond anecdotal information he passes on.

Over the past 5 years his charts on the family have changed a number of times. And, to a point, that's understandable because an LCN family chart will likely never be 100%. But if you take his charts at face value, there's over 50 members still in Detroit. And not only does this conflict with FBI estimates from 15 years ago which had the family at no more than 30, Scott has said himself he's not 100% sure every name on those charts is made. He also talks about rumors of there being a few making ceremonies in recent years, but again that's anecdotal, and it's unlikely the family would be able to almost double in size even with adding additional members.

Then there's the problem of discernible activity. If the Detroit family had as much of a presence and was as active as he claims, one would think there would be more evidence of it. At least comparable to New England, New Jersey, or Philadelphia. But there's been only one significant case involving the family over the past decade - a gambling case involving about 15 people in 2006. Before that you have to go back to the mid 1990's when Tocco and several other top guys were indicted.

Do I think the mob in Detroit is entirely defunct? No. But it's a safe bet it doesn't have more than a couple dozen members at most at this point and doesn't have a whole lot of activity beyond the standard bookmaking and loansharking. It's not this powerhouse family thriving under the radar that some believe it to be.

I agree to you're arguments. I don't know that much about Detroit, but I assume that Scott B. (who I believe can be called a Detroit mob expert) knows his stuff.

40-50 members is about as much as Philly, and there's a lot of news about Philly in recent years up until now. Unless the Detroit mob has mastered their efforts to keep under the radar, I think it's unlikely they have over 40 members, probably less.

But you know at least as well as I do that the FBI isn't always accurate and clear about its estimations too. A good example is the Outfit. Over the years they have given various estimations about the Outfit's size ranging from 50 to 25.

Are you Ontario?

Does Tocco have an Underboss or close confidant? Is there a named administration?

No he`s not me If I have something to say to IVyLeague I will say it I Don`t hide behind strawmen But MR BArrett I see how u thought that as he capitalizes alot which also did before

It's not that Scott doesn't know his stuff when it comes to Detroit. It's that he, in my opinion, succumbs so the same thing other authors do when they tend to "hype" their subjects. It's why Lamothe and Humphreys called the Rizzutos the "Sixth Family." It's why Volkman referred to the Lucchese family in his book Gangbusters as the "crown jewel" of the Mafia, even though they never were.

And the Detroit family somehow figuring out a way to avoid law enforcement is another convenient excuse that some have used. As if Tocco and Company are smarter and sneakier than the other families. Of course, going along that same line of thinking, one could argue that the same applies to Kansas City, or Pittsburgh, or Los Angeles. Heck, the Dallas mob must really be a slippery bunch. No news from them since the 1960's.

My point being that more activity usually means more indictments. Less activity means less indictments. Two significant cases in Detroit over the last 15 years should tell people all the need to know. But there will always be a certain group who want to believe there is still a strong family in Detroit or wherever. So they go on wishful thinking more than demonstrable facts.

This is a little bit off-topic, but now you mention it, do you also think that Tommy Lucchese was the top boss others on the real deal forum make him out to be? Just curious.

Lucchese had quite a bit of political clout himself (comparable to Costello) and his family was pretty diversified for being one of the smaller NY ones but I don't think he was ever the top boss.

but he had been around way before gambino and gambino would n ot have been capo di tutti capi without luchese`s support and intermarriage had Luchese sided with bonanno and profaci gambino would never have lasted

luchese was not the top boss but he was def a strong 3rd. back in those days the bonnano's and colombo's were def back seat to the luchese family.

In the 1960s they probably were.

yeah back when tommy luchese was running things.