Which Family is currently the Strongest?

Which Mob Family is Currently the Strongest in your opinion?

Gambino Crime Family

Lucchese Crime Family

Genovese Crime Family

Bonanno Crime Family

Colombo Crime Family

I am currently running a poll on my blog, be sure to vote to input your two cents on this matter.

http://fivefamiliesnyc.blogspot.com/

The Genovese family is unanimously considered to be the strongest Mafia family in the U.S. The Gambinos are #2.

Of the Five Families? Sure.

But the Rizzuto Family (and by proxy, the Bonnano's, though not really)
is very active with a huge range of territory across North America.

But of the Five Families? It would seem the Genovese, i guess. That is my opinion also.

The Rizzutos are no longer considered part of the Bonanno family. And the Genovese family is considered the strongest in the entire U.S., not just in New York.

Yeah the Rizzuto's apparently disassociated themselves with the Bonanno's after Bonanno Boss Joe Massino flipped. The Genoevse are definietly the strongest and comparatively to the other families pretty hush hush in terms of staying out the headlines. they learned well from Chin Gigante.

The following are the results of the poll: 70 total votes

Genovese Crime Family: 43 votes - 61%
Gambino Crime Family: 15 votes - 21%
Colombo Crime Family: 6 votes - 8%
Lucchese Crime Family: 4 votes - 5%
Bonanno Crime Family: 2 votes - 2%

No Surprise here as the FBI describes the Genovese as "the Rolls Royce of the American Mafia." Surprising is the war-plagued Colombo Family is third on the list. The Bonanno's were literally decimated especially after Massino flipped and have a long way to go to rebuild.


Make sure to vote in our new poll!!!

http://fivefamiliesnyc.blogspot.com/

It does show how misinformed some people are. Why would anyone think any of the three smaller New York families are the most powerful now? One could forgive those who might think the Gambinos are, even though they are also wrong.

From the early days of the Mafia to the present, the Genovese family has always been the wealthiest and most powerful Mafia group in the nation. They have always controlled the largest gambling and loansharking operations in the New York/New Jersey area. They have always had the most influence in labor unions and legitimate industries. And for years they represented many of the smaller east coast families on the Commission.

The Gambinos simply rivaled the Genovese in some respects, as well as slightly surpassed them in overall size, during the 1970's and 1980's but never replaced the Genovese as the top family.

By the way, good idea on the new poll.

Personally, I put Turncoats/Informants and Changing Demographics under the same category of General Attrition. The first simply deals with quality of recruits while the second deals with quantity.

General Attrition has weakened the mob more than anything else by far. Law enforcement would be second and ethnic gangs would be third.

The following are the results of the poll: 58 total votes

Turncoats/Informants: 28 votes - 48%
Law Enforcement (FBI, Justice Department, etc): 12 votes - 20%
Changing Population Dynamics: 12 votes - 20%
Drug Dealing: 4 votes - 6%
Rise of Other Ethnic Gangs: 2 votes - 3%

A vast majority of our readers feel that informants such as Sammy Gravano and Joe Massino have contributed the most to the decline of the the Five Families. The old school vow of "omerta" no longer promotes the insulation and protection for the Mob like it once did. Law Enforcement and Changing Population Dynamics are tied for second. Increased surveillance sophistication by agencies have caused a headache for the Mob from day one.

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The Gambino's maybe had more influence in the days of Don Carlo but in terms of number of guys on the street, the Genovese has ALWAYS been number 1

At his peak, Carlo Gambino was the most powerful boss. But the Genovese have always been the country's most powerful family. The Gambinos simply rivaled them in many respects from the late 1960's to early 1990's and actually surpassed the Genovese in slightly in size for a time.

The "Genovese family" for many years and many reasons.

Also the Genovese Family was allies with many other families outside of the N.Y.C./N.J. area that helped keep the Genovese envelopes full by there Power and by going into rackets with other families who were there allies in which they provided what the other couldnt such as political influence,investement$$,muscle,etc.
The Genovese from what i can see had more LCN allies then any other LCN family.?

That's true. Back in the day the Genovese represented a number of the east coast families on the Commission, as well as the Cleveland and Detroit families from the midwest. They also had close ties to Chicago and even had an official position of "il messaggero" who's duties, among others, included acting as a messenger between the Genovese family and the Outfit. They had the closest ties to the Irish and Jewish groups in the early years and today are said by law enforcement to have the closest ties to other groups like the Russians, Cubans, etc.

whats your definition of strongest????

money, members, fear, ?????



"strongest" family isnt even on your list and its not based in new york...


basically blendid in to mainstream business.....years ago...but still run things....

legalized casinos..outside of vegas and atl city, real estate.. and post katrina....billions of dollars made...

you guys think dope gambling and sex is still what its about????

living in a time warp my friends.......

legitimate business interests and investments is what its about... what family are you talking about?

No offense but just what are you rambling about? If you're going to offer your 2 cents on this, at least know what you're talking about. There really is no debate who is the strongest Mafia family in the U.S.



"The Genovese family is a very, very strong family. They're the most efficient family because they're so secretive. People within the family don't even know who each other are. They are very disciplined in their criminal plots and they keep their hit teams small. Infilatration by law enforcement is very difficult. They continue to use violence to ensure compliance. We haven't had widespread disruption of the Genoveses like we had with the other families. Gigante's secrecy permeated the ranks and it still exists. If someone in the Genovese family slips up, they're dead before you know it." - Dave Shafer, Head of FBI Organized Crime Program (2009)


"The Genovese family is the most secretive, criminally diverse, and powerful family in the country. Their power stems from control of unions and major industries."
- Michael Campi, FBI Organized Crime Dept. (2006)


"The Genovese crime family is still the best organized and has the deepest bench."
- Daniel Castleman, Chief of Investigations - Manhattan District (2006)


"The (Genovese family's) members and rackets surpass all others."
- Jerry Capeci, Gangland News columnist (2006)


"The Genovese crime family is the the most organized, most powerful, largest organized-crime family existing today."
- Eric Snyder, Assistant U.S. Attorney (2006)


“The Genovese family is the most prolific and most powerful of New York’s five organized crime families.”
– Mark J. Mershon, Assistant Director FBI’s New York Office (2006)


"The Genovese Crime Family is widely considered by law enforcement as the most powerful of the mob families in the New York Metropolitan area, if not the entire country."
- Jim Kouri, National Association of Chiefs of Police (2005)


"It has the most sophisticated operations. The Genovese family has always been considered the Ivy League of the Mafia."
- Selwyn Raab, New York Times columnist (2005)


"Still the most powerful and influential is the Genovese family."
- Bruce Mouw, Former FBI Supervisor (2005)


"The Genovese family is the Rolls-Royce of organized crime."
- Loretta Lynch, U.S. Attorney-Brooklyn (2003)


"I consider the Genovese family to be the Ivy League of the underworld. They more or less invented labor racketeering."
- Joe Coffey, New York Police Dept. (2003)


"The Genovese family remains the richest, most powerful and least damaged crime group."
– Time Magazine (2001)


The Genovese family is the most powerful and most secretive crime group."
- Barry W. Mawn, FBI New York Office (2001)


"Despite a two-decade-long crackdown on organized crime that had decimated other Mafia families, the Genovese family has flourished. It is the largest and most financially successful crime family in New York."
- U.S. Attorney Mary Jo White (2001)


"The Genovese crime family is widely known in law enforcement as the Ivy League of the underworld. The family that gets it right."
- John Miller, FBI media spokesman (2001)


"The Genovese family has probably been the most powerful La Cosa Nostra family of the last hundred years."
- Ask Andy, Gangland News (1996)


"The Genovese family has become dominant among New York's Italian Mafia."
- Peter Maas, Author (1995)


"If anybody survives it will be the Genovese."
- Anthony Accetturo, Lucchese LCN family Captain (1994)


"If there is a major trend, it is the consolidation of power by the Genovese family."
- William Y. Doran, Head of the FBI's New York Criminal Division (1994)


"I have always considered the Genovese Family to be the most powerful LCN family in the United States."
- Al D'Arco, Lucchese LCN family Acting Boss (1994)


"The Genovese family is the most stable, the best counseled and the most diversified business-crime group in the country."
- Lee Brown, New York City Police Commissioner (1990)


"You keep hearing all this crap about Gotti being the boss of the bosses, but the Genovese have always been the country's most powerful family."
- Richard Ross, FBI (1990)


"The Genovese family is the most sophisticated, cautious, secretive, and powerful Cosa Nostra family in the United States."
- Phil Leonetti, Philadelphia LCN Underboss (1989)

It's about a lot of things...



"While centered in the New York metropolitan region, the Genovese family also maintains a presence in portions of New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Florida, Nevada, and California. The family has strong connections with other traditional and non-traditional organized crime groups throughout the United States. Of all the traditional LCN families, the Genovese has the most contact with non-traditional criminal organizations and the money and power they command. Not only is the Genovese family the strongest LCN group in the nation, but it also is the most unique. Elements of this group persist in the solid waste industry, on the waterfront, in organized labor and in public construction. It runs the largest bookmaking and loan sharking rings in the New York/New Jersey metropolitan area. The family’s other major criminal enterprises include extortion and labor racketeering in the construction, demolition, asbestos removal, carting, recycling, trucking, and waterfront industries; theft and kickbacks from pension funds; insurance fraud; narcotics trafficking; infiltration of legitimate businesses; and public corruption. Its influence is particularly strong on the Port Newark/Elizabeth and Hudson County waterfronts. While the organization continues to commit traditional crimes such as murder, extortion, racketeering, loan sharking and illegal gambling, it has evolved into committing more sophisticated crimes, such as computer fraud, stock/securities fraud and health-care fraud. Many of these crimes are committed with the assistance of non-traditional organized crime groups, such as those with Russian and Cuban members. Of all the traditional LCN families, the Genovese group has the most contact with non-traditional criminal organizations, and the money and power they command. The Genovese family has a proven record of resiliency that has enabled it to maintain a grip on lucrative segments of the legitimate economy despite repeated assualts by law enforcement."
- New Jersey Commission of Investigation on Organized Crime (2004)


"The Genovese family is now involved in a catalogue of crime: murder, extortion, loansharking, gambling, drugs, stock fraud, money-laundering, bank robberies, obstruction of justice and shaking down unions. While other families have been kicked out of the carting industry and the Fulton Fish Market, the Genovese family maintains a stubborn presence, investigators say. And an ongoing FBI investigation has found the Genovese family has ventured into new territory, becoming immersed in "pump and dump" stock scams and controlling the hot marijuana market in parts of the city." - New York Daily News Article (2001)



"According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and state agencies, the Genovese mobsters are the country's largest Mafia faction, with 200 to 250 active members. The gang is also supported by about 1,000 associates who assist its illegal activities in the metropolitan region, New England and Florida. The family's financial bedrock is illegal gambling and loan sharking in New York and New Jersey; the authorities say this business generates hundreds of millions of dollars in profits each year. The family is also entrenched in labor racketeering and extortion in the construction, waterfront and trucking industries in New York and New Jersey."
- New York Times article (1998)


"F.B.I. agents and state investigators say Mr. Cirillo controls 200 to 250 made, or initiated, soldiers and capos, mainly in the New York City region, and about 1,000 associates, people who knowingly work or cooperate in the gang's rackets. The Genovese family's financial bedrock is illegal gambling and loan sharking, which bring in hundreds of millions of dollars each year, according to Federal, New York and New Jersey law enforcement officials. Other illegal activities in which the family is said to be entrenched include extortion for labor peace in the construction industry and from businesses at Port Newark and Port Elizabeth in New Jersey."
- New York Times article (1997)


"The Organised Crime Task Force believes the Genoveses have now forced the other Mafia families out of the trucking business, the meat market, gambling, construction and shipping. The Task Force estimates that if it were a legitimate business, the family would report annual revenues of more than $2 billion for its East Coast operation. That buys a lot of influence and a lot of firepower."
The Independent article (1995)

Great Post.That about answers it.
They also are very selective when it comes to making a guy into there family.Not just anyone becomes "Made" in the Genovese Family.

I dont doubt that the Genovese are the undisputed kings of organised crime BUT if I was a mob guy, I'd wanna be made into one of the smaller families.
More chance of advancement in later years

i am all for lively debate....obviously you guys are centered on the five families that control new york and the surrounding areas....

since i am rambling....

the point i was trying to make is this...the one family that is outside of new york...has never suffered the... "rats/turncoats"..."bloodshed" that has decimated the traditional families over the years..they have always stayed under the radar cept for jfk conspiracy theories..

this family has controlled politics for decades...(just like the traditional 5)...gambling...real eastate ect..when casino gambling was legalized throughout the south...the biggest gambling boom every...(before the vegas corporations came in)....they owned it...

like i said... post hurricane katrina construction...you think new york city has $$$ in construction contracts??..again they own it..


the simple fact that the reason most of you discount them as powerful is plain and simple...they have never had the infamous reputation of the five families...because they chose to make money... not news....out of site out of mind i guess....


the family is named after carlos marcello..


current estimates put their numbers at only a handful...and that is quite alright with them....

jmo...

ivyleague that means --just my opinion...;)

"rats/turncoats"....and in general federal indictments over the years...

Greater chance of you being caught by the Feds cause of Rats,etc

There is absolutely no truth in what you said above. The New Orleans family is all but extinct. It was never a big family, even at it's peak. Marcello kept it relatively small on purpose. By the early 1990's, when he died, the FBI had the family near extinction anyway. Mobsters from New York were caught on tape talking about how the Marcello family was finished. That's when the last remnants of the family partnered with the Gambino and Genovese families in that video gambling racket that got busted up. Marcello's sons, if any of them are still alive, were left a lot of money and real estate but that doesn't equate to a viable crime family. Beyond that, there might be one or two remaining members left. Come here with the facts. Not with made up fantasy about a dead crime family making millions off legalized gambling and Katrina contracts.

Hi ya Gat1968, hows it?
You know, its funny; ive read a bunch of pieces that state how "most believe the New Orleans LCN Family is extinct, though some contend that it is actually amongst the strongest of all now".
Your the first dude ive come across who actually supports the latter claim, that is part of the "some". You got some articles or press releases to support your hypothesisisis (er, spl?) mate?
Sounds a little dubious, truth be told.

About my earlier post, too - while i definitely rate the Rizzuto's amongst the most powerful Familes, it was a mistake to still link them to the Bonanno Family. I was trying to point out that they once had a connection, but that is long in the past & it seems as if i am endorsing the Bonanno Family as the strongest, which is severely not the case. I should have left their name out all together.

*Ahem* The Rizzuto Family. & the Genovese. & the Outfit.

...um....by the way...typing like this...it's kinda annoying...

The Chicago Outfit has always been pretty big

Not with made up fantasy about a dead crime family making millions off legalized gambling and Katrina contracts.

You got some articles or press releases to support your hypothesisisis (er, spl?) mate?
Sounds a little dubious, truth be told.


as far as news articles...the most recent that comes to mind was governer edwards being indicted under ricco violations...(casino kickbacks)


just so you know i have never put much stock into people that go by what they read and not actual experience....


plus most of you are probably fbi....

i give up you guys are obviously the authority...on this subject....

The Gambinos would be #2 behind the Genovese in the U.S. And at this point, I'd also put the other the other three New York families ahead of any family outside the city as well. And that includes the Outfit.

For me, the jury is still out on the Rizzutos. There are two schools of thought on them. One being that they are just a Bonanno crew that operates in Canada. The other being they are an international powerhouse that can rival, if not surpass, any family in the U.S. I think the truth falls somewhere in the middle.

The Rizzutos do have international ties to the Mafia in Sicily, as well as for drug connections in South America. They are different because they are sort of a hybrid group made up of guys made into the American mob but said to have loyalties to their clan in Sicily. This is a glaring contradiction for anyone familiar with how things work between the Italian and American Mafias.

At the same time, former Bonanno underboss Salvatore Vitale testified about a meeting he had with Vito Rizzuto where Vito told him they had 18-20 members and mostly kept to themselves, though they were well respected. Of course, this wasn't counting all their associates. Over 90 guys were picked up in Operation Colisee back in 2006. More recently, Vito was said to have sent the message to the Bonannos that he didn't recognize Salvatore Montagna as his boss since he was a "lightweight." The question is, if the Rizzutos were completely broken off from the Bonannos as is thought after the Sciascia murder, why would Vito feel the need to say that at all?

It's also interesting to see the reaction of some authors who have all but mythologized the Rizzutos in the past after the recent killing of Nick Rizzuto Jr.



Today they are a mid-sized family, similar in size to families in New England, New Jersey, and Philadelphia.

According to information collected by FBI wiretaps, representatives of the Philadelphia family contacted ageing mobster Frank Gagliano, the underboss to Carolla, for permission to move into casino-styled gambling operations and cocaine trafficking.

"Sure, go ahead," Gagliano is supposed to have said, "come on in. You won't get any problems from the Marcellos. They're finished. They don't mean nothin' around here any more."


----------------------------------------


By the time Marcello left prison in 1989, he was in ill health and unable to run his far-flung empire - or what was left of it. He died in 1993.

About the time video poker machines started coming on line in Louisiana in 1992, the FBI was running a court-approved wiretap on a pay telephone in a French Quarter deli where bookmaking was suspected.

Illegal bets on professional sports have always been a mainstay of organized crime. But there wasn't much worry about organized crime at the time: as far as the federal government was concerned, the Marcello family had fallen so far that New Orleans was just about an "open city" - not controlled by any particular gang.

But what the feds heard on that pay phone stunned them - various mob figures in Louisiana talking with their counterparts in the East about infiltrating the video poker businesses through "front organizations."

And the conversations revealed that Anthony Carolla - who had lost out in the 40s to Marcello as boss - was now leading the family and would be aided by Joseph "JoJo" Corrozo, described by prosecutors as a captain in the Gotti-dominated Gambino family.

"We had the advantage of being up on a wire, watching and listening day to day the mob literally re-emerging in New Orleans. It was unprecedented," Letten said.

Bally Gaming Inc., a major slot-machine manufacturer, had fallen behind in the game. Its video poker machines were outdated compared to competitors who had beaten Bally to the budding Louisiana market.

Then, as prosecutors would later allege, a former New Jersey casino executive named Steve Bolson and Christopher Tanfield, a rock concert promoter, linked up Bally Gaming with two Louisiana companies - Worldwide Gaming of Louisiana and Louisiana Route Operators to place Bally machines in restaurants, bars and truck stops.

The deal was a disaster for Bally Gaming. The company terminated its relationship with the two firms and later claimed a $25 million loss from the deal.

That was only the start: In May 1994, a federal grand jury alleged that Worldwide Gaming and Louisiana Route Operators were nothing more than fronts for the Marcello and Gambino crime families, with the Genovese family also along for the ride.

Prosecutors debriefed Gravano and found out about the 1990 meetings between the Gotti and Marcello families, learning for the first time that the scheme was concocted even before video poker was legalized. By the time the pay phone gave away its secrets, the plan was nearly three years old.

The government convicted 25 people of involvement in the scheme. Those included Corrozo, Carolla and Salvatore, along with John "Johnny G" Gammarao, an alleged soldier for the Gambino family, Eugene "Noogie" Gilpin, an alleged Genovese associate, and Carlos Marcello's brother, Joseph Paul Marcello Jr.

One Louisiana legislator lost his political career. Buster Guzzardo, who served in the House, pleaded guilty to accepting $1,200 in cash and a fax machine from Tanfield, the concert promoter.
Bally Gaming was eventually bought by another company.

In local referendums held in 1996, 33 parishes banned video poker. But casinos survived and the Legislature later approved slot-machine casinos at race tracks.

Gotti was convicted of murder and sentenced to life. He died in June 2002.

Gravano confessed to roles in 19 murders when he testified against Gotti and was released after only five years in prison. He eventually left the witness protection program, lived openly in Arizona and taunted the mob during interviews in 1999.

But old habits die hard: Gravano is now serving a 19-year sentence in Arizona for masterminding an ecstasy drug ring.

As far as organized crime goes, Letten says from what he sees, New Orleans is again mostly an "open city," at least as far as traditional La Cosa Nostra goes.

"I think we struck a killer blow to these guys and dismantled a re-emerged family," Letten said. "By the grace of God, we were able to do that."

I dont believe the five New York Families are the strongest in the U.S.
I believe the Genovese Family is at the top.
"The Outfit" and the "Detroit Partnership" are strong also and have kept the rats and indictments to a minumum over the last century.Actually i think there in the top 3 familys when it comes to not having snitches.Genovese,Outfit,Partnership.
I dont think just cause your from N.Y. your the strongest as the Bonanno Family is weaker to me then Detroit or Chicago.
I would have rathere been "Made" in Detroit then the Colombos,Bonannos or the Lucchese Familys,etc.
All in all the LCN in the U.S. is still making enough $$$ to keep people in line for membership.

That may very well be true, Lucasi. But don't forget, the weakest New York family is still more likely to "have the ear" of the Genovese and Gambino families, than either of the Chicago or Detroit families. Their proximity to the stronger New York families makes them stronger by extension.

For instance, the Luccheses are in partnership with the Genoveses in many construction projects. Now let's say the Luccheses get into a beef with the Chicago Outfit over something silly. Sure, the Chicago Outfit is stronger than the Luccheses are on their own. But if the Genovese family gets involved (and they're going to if they're making money with the Luccheses), then that's all she wrote. There's no comparison.

The Luccheses have always had a friend in high places.
As mentioned, they partner the Genovese in some scams and before that they were practically married (Literally) to the Gambino's.

Lefty Ruggeiro even supposedly once said to Joe Pistone that "Chicago answers to New York"

I don't remember that quote but it's been a while since I read Pistone's book. I do remember Lefty saying that "Milwaukee answers to Chicago" when he was speaking of Frank Balisteri (sp).

Back in the day Chicago claimed hegemony over every activity or family west of Chicago and even some of the other midwestern groups.

I do remember Lefty saying that "Milwaukee answers to Chicago" when he was speaking of Frank Balisteri

Lefty continued the sentence by saying "......and Chicago answers to New York

Memory can be deceiving. I think we are both right and both wrong..

The quote about "Chicago being responsible to New York" was actually not from Lefty but from his capo Mike Sabella in the context of the arbitration of the aborted business deal between Conte and Frankie Bals.

Bals was not allowed by Chicago to enter into independent agreements with supposed NY mobsters. The evident compromise worked out between NY and Chicago would have been that since Frankie Bals agreed to the deal , if Conte had been a real mobster he would have been allowed to operate his business in Milwaukee but without any hindrance from the Milwaukee mobsters.

Given that Chicago nixed the deal it would seem to indicate that the Outfit remained independent.

Lefty also said that Kansas City, Cleveland and Detroit belonged to Frank. When Lefty was speaking of the Milwaukee Mob he said they were crazy and couldn't be controlled by NY or anyone else, only Chicago.

So I think that NY and Chicago were roughly equivalent in terms of authority. I certainly don't see Aiuppa or Accardo "answering" to NY.

I agree, Lilo. But let's keep things in the perspective of the original question: Which Family is currently the strongest? On that basis, I don't think that Chicago matches up to the strongest (namely the Genovese family) of the New York families anymore.

But again, you're right, Aiuppa and Accardo didn't take shit from anyone. For that matter, neither did Giancana.

I would definitely have to say the Genovese Family, the have the most made guys, and are the most secret of the New York Families, and staying off the radar is probably the biggest deal of today with the Feds, they have an endless source if they want to get somebody.

Who you personally would rather be made in has nothing to do with it. And rats, or the lack thereof, are not the only criteria. Even the smallest New York family is twice the size of the Chicago Outfit and four times the size of the Detroit family. And notice how you didn't even bring up the Gambinos, who are easily the #2 family in the U.S. behind the Genovese. You can go on wishful thinking and outdated thinking or you can go on the facts. Any of the five New York families are larger, more active, more diversified, and more expansive than any other family outside New York. And that includes Chicago and Detroit.

You see, this is part of the problem when people talk about the modern day Chicago mob. Inevitably, many of them start talking about Accardo and Aiuppa and other things or people that no longer apply. Last time I checked, they were both dead. But it's indicative of the fact that many people's view of the Outfit is outdated. The topic might be the Chicago mob of today but they are still looking at things how they were 30 or 40 years ago. Likewise, they start talking about how this city or that city answers to the Outfit. Families west of Chicago did at one time but there are really none left today to do so. There is no traditionally structured, viable family left in Milwaukee, St. Louis, Kansas City, Los Angeles, etc. If people want to talk about the modern day Outfit, they have to look at the modern day - i.e. within the last decade or so.

Why bring up the Gambinos?Just to type?We all know there 2nd in SIZE,ETC and have sometimes been the Top Dog in N.Y.C. above the Genovese Family and deserve much respect.
U can say what u want but what i see on "active soldiers" for Chicago/Detroit all the familys in NEW YORK are not twice the size as The OUTFIT and 4 Times the size of Detroit when U can Still see 100+ not deceased or shelved in Detroit and 200+ not deceased or shelved in Chicago.Genovese and the Gambinos are much larger but the other 3 familys are not each 4 times the size of Detroit or twice the size of Chicago.
I believe running a tight ship and staying out of the FBIs sights while still making plenty of $$$ is the sign of a Strong Family and the Detroit Partnership has done/did/does that.

Don't get bent out of shape.
The minor side discussion about who answered to whom came up in comments made by NY mobsters concerning Chicago-NY-Milwaukee relationships over thirty years ago. A clarification was offered concerning those comments-that's all.

First, I brought up the Gambinos because you and others didn't. You can't make a list of the top three families in the country without the Gambinos being on it. Because they're #2, both in New York and in the U.S. over all. Though they never surpassed the Genovese family, but did rival them in many respects for a time.

Second, even if every single made member of the Chicago and Detroit families were active on the street, any of the New York families would still have more guys on the street than they do. The Lucchese, Colombo, and Bonanno families each have a little over 100 members. That's 2x the size of the total membership of the Outfit and 4x the size of the Detroit family.

Like many do, you are looking at this exactly backwards. You think a family that barely gets any headlines or indictments in this day and age means they are stronger. Well if that's the case, the Los Angeles family must be thriving. It's the other way around. A more active family is going to be seen as a greater organized crime threat by law enforcement, which in turn means more indictments. There being less indictments in Chicago and Detroit doesn't mean these families just know how to stay under the radar. It means they are smaller and there is less activity by these families when compared to those in New York.

I'm honestly not trying to get bent out of shape. It's just that I've had these debates with people more time than I can count. Some of the most heated have been over the Chicago Outfit. And like I pointed out above, while I'm talking about the modern day Outfit, I'll often find that the person I'm talking to is talking about the Outfit of the 1950's and 1960's.

It's understandable to a point, I guess. Like most of us, they get their information from books. Problem is, most mob books are long after the fact, and therefore outdated. So they enter a discussion about the Chicago mob of today having just read Accardo: The Genuine Godfather or something like that and that's the image they have.

Meaning that the Feds have bigger fish to fry.

And don't forget that the anti-terrorism squad has taken a good deal of OC agents and reassigned them. So they're not likely to put much effort into prosecuting a glorified gang in the midwest.

While I'm not saying you're one of them, this is an explanation that is often used by those who try to overrate certain families. And I tell them the same thing every time. After 9/11, there was a widespread shakeup in the FBI as far as investigational priorities go. And that includes New York.

In the 1980's and 1990's there were about 350 FBI agents, plus 100 or so NYPD detectives, working full or part time on Mafia cases in New York. Many of them were temporarilly or permanently reassigned to anti-terrorism units after the 9/11 attacks. By 2005 that 450 figure had been reduced by roughly two-thirds. Now, there are only about 50 FBI agents currently on the five family squads. 12 for the Genovese family, plus several NYPD detectives. 12 for the Gambinos. And under 10 each for the Lucchese, Colombo, and Bonnano families.

So even in New York, where about 70% of the remaining mob membership is, they have been downgraded as a priority. Nevertheless, there has continued to be ongoing mob cases up to the present. The same can be said for families in New England, New Jersey, and Philadelphia; though obviously to a much smaller degree. So one can't really make the excuse that families in Chicago and Detroit are all but left alone by the feds now because they have other priorities and that's why there are less indictments.

I understand that. Maybe I should have worded it to include the New York families. The government has been far too bus with anti-terrorism to dedicate the same manpower to OC as they did pre-9/11.

I agree for sheer size the top two families are Genoveses and Gambinos, a lot of the families in the midwest are holding on to so many old soldiers, while these families are still thriving, Associates do a lot of work of work and make a lot of money for families and the more soldiers definitely more associates, soldiers have there own crews who kick up to them.

When it comes to size, here is a a generalized breakdown:

200 member range - Genovese, Gambino

100 member range - Lucchese, Colombo, Bonanno

50 member range - Chicago, New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia

25 member range - Buffalo, Detroit

10 member range - Cleveland, Tampa, Kansas City, Los Angeles

5 or less range - Rochester, Pittsburgh, NE PA, New Orleans, Milwaukee, St. Louis

Theres almost enough guys with the last names TOCCO and GIACALONE in Detroit to make your estimate of 25 members?Actually between 15-18 "made" guys with just those last names that are active in the Detroit Partnership/Combination.I believe your size estimate to be unaccurate as far as Detroit and a few others.
Also we know that every city has atleast a few "Made" men to take care of Business even if its just a small crew from another Family like Detroit taking care of Business in some spots in Canada,etc and other familys as well or for instance the Bonanno crew in Massachuetts,etc.Every city who has lost there Major family has had another family pick up and take whats left to make $$$ on even if its only a couple of men taking care of business.Theres always strip clubs,gambling,loansharking,etc.

I go with the official size estimates put out by the FBI and other law enforcement agencies. And I do so while looking at consistent patterns over an extended period of time. You choose to ignore official estimates in favor of your own assumptions, which are in turn based on wishful thinking. That's been obvious for a long time. Not everyone will the last name Tocco or Giacalone should just automatically be assumed to be a made guy.

If i assumed everyone named Tocco and Giacalone in Detroit and the surrounding cities in Michigan were "made" i could fill this page.Look up all the Toccos in the M.D.O.C. offender search and none are mobbed up or so we know.
The only one that has the official estimate of the Detroit Partnership is the Hierarchy.Everyone elses #s are a guess and what info u can dig up.Certainly there are "Made" members not everyone knows about.

Jack Tocco-Boss
Vito Tocco-Jacks son
Anthony "Tawn" Tocco
Paul Tocco-Lieutenant
Peter "Big Pete" Tocco-Lieutenant
Joey Tocco
Sam "Junior" Tocco
Peter "Specs" Tocco-Capo
Salvatore "Mops" Tocco
Peter"Little Pete" Tocco
Jack "Little Jackie" Tocco
Anthony"Little Tony" Tocco
Vito Giacalone-Underboss
Jack "Jackie the Kid" Giacalone-Street Boss
Joseph "Little Joey Jack" Giacalone-stationed in Flint,Mi
Joseph "Joey Jack" Giacalone
Anthony "Fat Tony" Giacalone-Capo
Jack "Jackie the Nose" Giacalone

While they will never be exactly on, the FBI has approximate numbers on every family. This comes from decades of investigation on their part. Once again, 15 years ago the feds had the Detroit family at 30 members at most. Fast forward to the present, some have died and some more may have been made, but it's likely that the current total is not over 30. But you ignore all this in favor of different lists you see on the internet because you want to go with whatever shows a bigger number. You're not looking at this objectively.

If i wasnt checking on deceased and shelved members i would have put Anthony"Tony Jack" Giacalone Sr.,,Nove Tocco-Detroits only "made" member to become FBI informant and testify,Joe Tocco-Nove Toccos brother whom i believe is shelved or still a "Soldier" and their Father Paul Tocco-Lieutenant who i listed but maybe shelved after his son Nove Tocco Testified or hes still a "Soldier",William "Black Bill" Tocco,Paul Tocco Sr whos father was slain member Joe Tocco,Anthony "Tawn" Toccos Son William "Billy Boy" Tocco who commited suicide in 2007,Etc.
Every Name i have researched for being dead or shelved,etc before and after they were posted.
Also Detroit has members whom they call "Soldiers" and "Lieutenants" who are not Italian, or only on there mothers side.Those i havent even listed on my main post of members.
My list was compiled by many other list,books,internet sites,street knowledge,News articles,archives,etc not just 1 big imaginary list.
I have seen more info to Objectively make me believe that there is well over 30 "Made" Members.If u added the Ruggirellos,Bommaritos,Palazollas,Corrados,Licavolis u would be over 30 "Made" members right there not counting the Zerillis and all the others.Anyone can check this post if u think im mistaken.?
I dont care in all reality how BIG The Partnership is i just research it because of my interest in all that is mafia and because of previously living in the city at one time and all over the NUMEROUS cities that surround DETROIT and of course because my moms is Italian and has lots of storys that originally sparked my interest.

Which ever way you cut it, you are putting your own personal research over FBI estimates. And that's just absurd. Associates is another topic completely and the feds say they have as much as a few hundred. But as far as formally inducted members go, it's likely not above 30 at this point. And the relatively small amount of activity there bares that out.

I find it very interesting that the partnership is growing, maybe the feds and cops are more worried about the street gangs and drugs in Detroit, and the mob was put on the back burner, I need to know besides Motor City, was information can I get on The Partnership/

Who said the Detroit family is growing? I suppose some would believe that if they believe the inflated numbers for that family that float around. At best they are what they were 15 years ago. There's no substantial evidence they've gotten bigger since then.

Incidentally, which of the 5 NY families is the smallest?
Colombo or Luchesse?

I haven't come across much information about Detroit until I read posts, I would think they would be shrinking just like every other modern Italian family, but I don't get much info, so either they are very secret, or growing weaker, maybe both.

The three smaller families - Lucchese, Colombo, and Bonanno - are all roughly the same size with slightly over 100 members each according to most estimates.

Yeah, there is no evidence that they are somehow bucking the general trend in the mob of slowly declining numbers. They were never a particularly large family anyway. They are relatively small, tight-knit family with a lot of blood members. This helps cohesion and loyalty but does not fend off general attrition. There is no reason to believe they have any more than 30 members at most at this point, especially considering that's what the feds had them at 15 years ago.

Nicky Scarfo Jr was recently indicted (again) for being part of sports betting overshore web site that grossed over 2 billion in 3 years. Luchese and Genovese operation. Do the math kids.

That particular operation involved only the Luccheses - their New Jersey faction to be exact. Most of the arrests happened back in 2007 but the actually came down earlier this year and Scarfo Jr. and a few other guys were added to it.

I notice a couple of women in there.
The Lucchese's have obviously picked themselves up and rebuilt in the years since Gaspipes rampage

At the top of the chart you have Matthew Madonna and Joe DiNapoli, both captains who were part of a 3 man ruling panel overseeing the family along with Neil Migliore. Below them is Ralph Perna, who was made Captain over the family's New Jersey crew after Nicky Scarfo Jr. was demoted. The five guys below him are all Soldiers. Below them are several associates. The two women, wives of two of the defnedants, were charged with tax fraud violations involving their husbands's illegal income. The five to the right of them were part of the Blood street gang who was smuggling cell phones and drugs into prison supplied by the Luccheses.

That isnt the total upper echelon of the Luccheses right?

nope steven crea is not on the chart

steven crea is the acting bos now right? the official title is not in use?

Reports have Crea as the Street Boss since his parole restrictions have ended, plus Joe Caridi is the Consig, and also Neil Migliore is apart of three man ruling panel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Crea

Unless there is a link in article to a reputable source, Wikipedia is often not a good source of information about the mob. There are a lot of clowns who simply put their assumptions into those Wiki articles. As far as is known up to this point, Crea is still officially the underboss. Since Madonna and DiNapoli got busted, there has been no new ruling council or acting/street boss identified yet.

And the chart above is mostly of the New Jersey faction of the family, except for Madonna and DiNapoli, who were the top guys they answered to in New York; along with Migliore. Technically, Vic Amuso remains the official boss.

so it seems they still accept Vic Amuso as the boss? In the past it would start a war for the top spot, but nowadays its staying of the radar. And Vic Amuso wasnt a reall good boss, many didnt like him.

In gangbusters book, it said that Casso ratted Vic Amuso out so that he become the official boss? is that a fact?

If I'm correct, Casso never wanted to be the boss himself, and felt most comfortable in his role as consigliere. He wanted to stay under the radar for de feds, but in reality he was the one who pulled the strings. If this was true, I don't see why he wanted to become official boss. And besides, no rat becomes a boss or stays a boss for long.

I don't have the book in front of me now but I think that was more the author's interpretation of events as only a few people knew where Amuso was and Casso was one of them.

Hindsight is always 20/20 but if Casso did drop a dime he may have hoped that throwing Amuso to the wolves would have allowed him to escape. Sort of like in one of those old WW2 movies where one soldier yells grenade and throws himself on it, thus saving his buddies. If the allegations were true Casso was the sort of fellow who would yell grenade and throw somebody else on it, thus saving himself...

Could be... i always wondered why he would do that, it didnt make any sense to me. Thats why i asked it here, there are a couple of these things in the book that makes me wonder. And the part where Fat Pete is shot, 7 bullets and still alive. And decided to flip for a pizza in the hospital

I guess the extra weight came in handy. Better to be called "Fat Pete" than "Dead Pete".

oh i believe he got shot 7 times, but the part that he agreed to cooperate with the feds for pizza thats funny. I saw a picture of Fat Pete, he is indeed very fat. Its a picture from the book Five Families, it shows Casso and Fat Pete alongside eachother and smiling. Its shocking actually, how easy it is to get killed in the mob.. especially with psycos like Casso.

Amuso remains the official boss of the Lucchese family for much the same reason that Peter Gotti remains official boss of the Gambino family. Both are going to die in prison but others in their families are content with them to have the title. Same for Carmine Persico of the Colombos, although one could argue he's had more control from prison because the Persicos are still a power in the family. But that's not to say Amuso or Gotti have no clout. Both still do.

I don't recall what was said in Gangbusters (read it long ago) but Casso didn't rat out Amuso so he could become boss. Casso was already the driving force in the family behind the throne. But it got to the point, when they were both on the run from the law, that Amuso actually put out word that Casso had been stripped of his position and authority. That no doubt was a reason for Casso flipping. And, of course, he was always out for himself.

Casso was a very interesting character and I love reading about him. Amazing earner, prolific psychopath two very strong points on his resume

In Gaspipe Confessions of A Mafia Boss, GCasso talks about how one day while in the can not too long ago he was I believe being transferred to another jail when he was booked on the same bus,plane as Amuso. And they started chatting an Amuso said I can tell by looking at your face you regret ratting. And Casso said he was right and he went on about how the Feds had screwed him,etc.

I have sat here and read all your posts. Now I will put in my 2 cents for what it is worth. This coming from someone with great knowledge of organized crime. The Chicago Outfit is much larger than the FBI estimates. There made members is somewhere in the vicinity of 250. Ivy League you talk about how people are basing this on 30 years ago. I can tell you that I am not. And the current head of the Chicago Outfit would tell any of the 5 New York Families to go to he**. There is no way he would answer to them. I am not saying the Chicago Outfit is stronger or larger than the Genovese Family. But I can promise you that neither one would want to go to war with the other. Your knowledge of the New York Families seems to be pretty good, however your knowledge of organized crime outside of the 5 families is way off. Do you think the FBI really knows how many members are in each family. Come on. For your knowledge the Chicago Outfit is said to be the stongest amoung all organized crime families according to Robert Mueller Director of the FBI

Was that a friendly chat? I remember Capeci writing about it and the way he described it was like Gotti and Gravano meeting. Like Amuso hated Casso with every fiber of his being. I'm gonna try and find that article.

250 made guys? How sure are you of that number?

You can find it using Amazon if you search inside the book or if you use google scholar to do the same...

They probably never even had that many "made members". You can find a pretty good and recent chart of the Outfit on this forum, which lists about 83 made members.

This post is so absurd it's almost not even worth responding to. But what the hell?

First, you Chi-town boys really are the worst when it comes to mob fanboyism.

Second, anyone who thinks the Chicago mob has anywhere near 250 made members obviously has nowhere near a "great knowledge" of organized crime. I go with official estimates over the past decade. You won't find any credible estimate that puts the Outfit at more than 60 made members max. That's not including associates of course. The average estimate being about 50 made guys, which is about half the size of one of the smaller New York families. Furthermore, law enforcement estimates of mob family membership have been pretty consistent since they started keeping better tabs in the 1980's. Much more reliable than the 250 number you pulled out of your ass.

Third, nobody said anything about the New York families giving orders to the Outfit. In fact, I've said before that that New York and Chicago have relatively little contact nowadays.

Fourth, Robert Mueller or anyone else in the FBI has never said the Chicago Outfit is the strongest OC family. However, the feds and numerous mob experts have long said the Genovese family are. And I can provide you with a list of those comments as long as your arm if you like. Something we both know you can't do regarding your lie about what Mueller supposedly said.

Could you support this with sources? What I've read about this so far is that estimates mostly vary between 50-100.

Most sources also say the Chicago outfit has deliberatly reduced its size, maintain a low key level. So i have to go with Ivy on this, most of his estimates about the families are far more correct then other supposed estimates. No way a major mafia family has more then 200 let alone 250, only the Genovese and Gambinos have around 200.

December 2000 -
While the Outfit once claimed hundreds of inducted, or "made," members, today that figure has dwindled to perhaps 50.
http://www.laborers.org/ChicagoMag_Moblite_12_00.htm

August 2002 -
In the 1980s, the Chicago mob had roughly 200 "made" members, each of whom ran his own various illegal businesses. Today, according to the FBI, the mob is down to about 50 made members.
http://www.ipsn.org/characters/new_outfit.htm

May 2005 -
The FBI estimates that Chicago now only has 25 "made" members and another 75 organized crime associates. Federal authorities said that 15 years ago the mob had 50 "made" members and as many as 400 associates.
http://www.labor-unions.net/newspapers/chicago_tribune/crackdown_just_latest_hit_on_mob.htm

September 2007 -
Robert D. Grant, special agent in charge of the FBI's Chicago office, said the city is still plagued by 28 "made guys" and more than 100 associates who do the dirty work but are in the mob's inner circle.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-09-27-3043193147_x.htm

September 2007
We have dozens of open investigations,' John Mallul, supervisor of the FBI's organized crime unit in Chicago, said in an interview.....Mallul estimates the Outfit has about 30 'made' members and a little more than 100 associates.
http://forums.thesopranos.com/viewtopic.php?t=4173

March 2009 -
In addition to the 14 murders, Calabrese confessed to, he told prosecutors about 60 names of made men in the Outfit.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/mob/2009/03/what_the_prosecution_says_abou.html

I said in the vicinity of 250 for 1. If you are talking the Chicago Outfit than you are including all made members that report to or answer to No Nose. That makes about 250 made men. I have been around the Chicago Outfit since I was a little kid. Have watched as they have changed bosses and watched while high ranking members have gone to jail. The reason the FBI and others think that they are only at 50 is because thats what they want you to think. Once again you can go off the numbers you read and think that is true. However I will go with who I know and see everyday. I told you once I have great knowledge of organized crime. I have been around high ranking outfit members my whole life. Played with there kids, went to there parties, hell one is my god father for heaven sake. So you believe what you want and I will go with what I know

Those are two pretty conflicting reports. They went from 50 made guys to suddenly 25 in less than three years?

And they had only 50 made guys in 1990? Maybe "active" members, otherwise forget about it. I'm pretty conservative myself, by I have an FBI chart of the Outfit in 1983 which lists about 175 made members.

I'm getting the impression that the FBI are playing with these numbers.

isn't there a difference between made guys in Chicago versus the traditional New York sense? Like Frank Calabrese claimed he wasn't made, yet ran his own crew like a Capo. Also Roemer (who I take with huge grains of salt) said that non-italians were frequently 'made' into the Outfit

The Outfit didn't even have 250 members at it's peak, let alone today. Regardless of where you live or what you think you know, it's not like you have done some sort of census yourself regarding Outfit membership. You're pulling that 250 number out of thin air. Even the Genovese and Gambino families don't have that many anymore.

Indeed there has been quite a range in the estimates over the past 10 or 15 years. It can be a little confusing when an FBI source in one article will cite 25 members. And another will cite 50 members. The Outfit's membership doesn't seem to be as well covered as the New York families or some others. A few more estimates would include the Chicago Crime Commission, which estimated about 70 members back in 1997. Around 1999 or so, the FBI actually released a list of 47 names to the press that were said to be made Outfit members. And as I have already pointed out, Outfit turncoat Nick Calabrese reportedly identified about 60 made members earlier this decade.

So how do we interpret all this? First, like with estimates of other families, I don't focus too much on any one figure. Rather, I look at them collectively over a given time span and tend to go with the average. Looking at the estimate range over the past decade, one could say the average is about 50. Second, I consider the ongoing mob activity in Chicago, as well as in relation to the estimates and activity of families in other cities.

The Outfit is still recognized as a formally structured, viable organization by law enforcement and there have been more than enough cases over the past decade to show this is the case. There have been at least as much, if not more, mob activity in Chicago as in New England or New Jersey or Philadelphia. And those families still have about 50 members each. So that leads me to believe the current Outfit is probably closer to 50-60 members than 25-30. Heck, what's left of the mob in Detroit still has about 25 members and it has nowhere near the mob activity in Chicago.

There has been a lot of misunderstanding about that. There was a time, decades ago, when non-Italians had more upward mobility in the Chicago family than others. But even then they could never become formally initiated members. Guys like Jake Guzik, Murray Humphries, Gus Alex, and others had a lot of clout. But they weren't Italian and so could never become made. It was also said that even Italian guys who were made into the Outfit didn't go through the blood and fire ceremony like those in other families. This idea has continued on in the minds of many even though it's now outdated.

Over time, the Chicago Outfit became more and more like the other LCN families. They eventually started using the same making ceremony. And no longer will you find any non-Italians in its hierarchy. There are still associates, both Italian and non-Italian, who may oversee certain operations but there are no non-members in the Outfit administration level or the crew boss level. So made guys in Chicago is essentially the same as New York or anywhere else.

One more confusing thing for people can be found in the recent Family Secrets indictment. In there you had some of the defendants who were identified as "made members of the Outfit." Others, however, did not have this distinction but were listed as a "member of the 26th street crew," "member of the Melrose Park crew," etc. It should be noted that just because they were members of a certain Outfit crew, that doesn't necessarily equate to them being formally inducted members of the Chicago mob.

Good post as usual Ivy.

I would just emphasize that as you write in the early days of the Outfit there were a number of members of non-Italian heritage. The Outfit in its origin was not a Mafia Family and so didn't really have the extreme and somewhat nitpicky distinctions as to who was "made" and who was an "associate".

As a whole the Italian element was always dominant and appeared to have the final say but with the exception of Accardo and Ricca you couldn't rise higher than Humphreys. Humphreys occasionally complained about being outvoted by the Italians but also wielded quiet authority over quite a lot of Italian hoodlums ,including people like Rosselli and to a lesser extent Mooney.

The books "The Outfit" and "SuperMob" by Gus Russo are really great histories/exposes of the classic Chicago Outfit and its upperworld enablers.

Hmm nice posts, both of you. I never dived into the history of the Chicago Outfit. This may be a good time to start reading The Outfit
But then again, its quite expensive. 16euros :S

I don't know the conversion rate but US Amazon is selling the Outfit for $15 new. You can get it for less used.. Obviously this has not much to do with what's going on today but I strongly recommend both books.

I cant pay on amazon with paypal, i dont have creditcards. So thats a no go for me, on ebay its expensive to with the cost of shipping.

Why don't you try bol.com

Yeah i tried there, thats the place where it cost 16 euros.

Ivy now I am starting to believe you have no clue what you are talking about. Either that or your one of those people who believes everything they read. If you read something that said jump off a bridge and you will become rich, would you believe it? Same concept applies here. No I have never done a census of made members in the CHicago Outfit. However as I have said before I have been around the Chicago Outfit since I was a kid. When you refer to the Chicago Outfit and their made members, you are referring to anyone that answers to No Nose. That being said, you have to consider thats all the made members in Chicago and also all the made members that have been sent to other places working under Chicago Outfit control. Now that being said that includes but it not limited to Los Angles fraction, Milwaukee faction, Las Vegas faction, Nebraska fraction, Iowa Fraction and San Diego fraction. All the members of these fractions are not made however there is at least a 10% made member ratio for these fractions. Lets just say for easy math reason that in all these fractions there are at least 10 made members. That is 60 made members right there. Now that is more than the 50 you claim they have. You have to stop believing everything you read. I have been at high ranking Outfit member houses when they have had member only meetings. The Chicago Outfit has more than 200 members and is in the vicinity of 250. You are an idiot if you believe anything else. Just out of curiousity how many made members of any organized crime family do you know? I can list at least 70 without even having to think. In total I have meet well over 125 currenct Chicago Outfit made members.

Sure but around 250? That would be massive, they wouldnt answer to New York anymore if they had power like that. And they are in the golden days the way you describe it.

They do not answer to New York.

I am not saying you are wrong Capo. I, frankly, know very little about the Outfit. I am however curious as to why you would advertise spending time at these people's houses while they conduct illegal activity or state figures as to membership. I have come into contact with some in the NYC area, but would never make any claims as to the size of these families, when/where they do business and how they comport themselves around the country. It seems quite unintelligent of you.

These are heavy words that you throw around here. You must appreciate that it's difficult to take at face value someone who says that they know personally lots of mobsters.
Of course, that's fascinating if true, but you have only your internet word to vouch for the fact that there are 250 members.
Having said that, although I am just a comparative rookie compared to guys who know their stuff like IvyLeague, I do happen to think that there are probably more than the oft-quoted 50 made guys in the Outfit.

A) I said I was at there homes while they had member only meetings. Never said what was discussed or if I was even if I know what was discussed at those meetings.
B) I advertised that I knew a bunch of members. As I said before I grew up with a bunch of there kids.
C)Figures to membership-maybe your right there maybe I shouldnt have said where there number is or isnt. Does it matter, none of you believe what I have been telling you anyway.
D) unitelligent of me. Thats a little bit of a strech. I have never used anyone name or said what house(s) I have been at. Never really stated anything other than I grew up with there kids and been to some of there houses. So I would beg to disagree with you on that.
E)Belive what you want. I believe what I know. And was just trying educate the rest of you your the information you were given that was wrong

I've encountered so many people on these forums who claim to have inside knowledge. They know this person or that person. They grew up here or there. It's the easiest way to try and gain instant credibility. But your own posts prove you don't know what you're talking about. Nebraska faction? Iowa faction? Give me a break. If you really believe the Outfit has people, let alone entire factions, in Nebraska or Iowa in this day and age, you are truly lost. The bulk of the modern day Outfit's operations are in and around Chicago within Cook County. And to a lesser extent elsewhere in Illinois, like Rockford and other places. There is no Outfit faction in Milwaukee. And there is likely not any more than a handful of guys left in places like Nevada, Arizona, and California.

You can keep repeating the Outfit has 250 members all you want. Doesn't make it true. And you rattling off 70 names proves nothing. There are plenty of blogs and lists on different forums of that many names associated with the Outfit and more. But there's not proof, beyond what we know, which ones are made guys. And you simply saying this guy or that guy is made proves nothing. Sorry, but I'll go with the average from various official estimates over the past 10-15 years rather than some bogus figure a faceless poster on an internet forum makes up.

Didnt the Milwaukee mafia family answer to Chicago? And they are extinct right now, or did i miss something.

There's always gonna be a bit of doubt when someone says they grew up connected.
Personally, I would maybe even believe you, to be honest; although its nothing like LCN, I have several friends where I live, London, whose family are involved in various illicit pursuits.
Any other information?

Back in the day Milwaukee, like other families west of Chicago, more or less answered to the Outfit. The Milwaukee family, even at it's peak, was always small. There hasn't been a case involving them since the 1980's. They are gone.

There are actually a few posters on some forums who happen to have grown up in a certain area, knew certain people, or at least knew a guy who knew a guy, etc. But none of them would ever claim to be "connected." They simply have some 2nd, 3rd, 4th hand info from what they hear. They never claim to know more than they do. They are valuable for "micro" information, i.e. certain incidents or specifics. But someone who is truly connected probably wouldn't be posting away on an internet forum anyway. Furthermore, anyone who can use Google or follow the New York press can have as good an idea of how things are in general as any local guy.

As for our current "insider," when he claims the Outfit has 5 times as many members as the average official estimate, and talks about there being "factions" in places like Nebraska, that should tell you all you need to know about him.

Maybe he's confused with "associates". I certainly believe Chicago's criminal network has 250 members. That seems very plausible to me.

I always found it intresting when I read a book a while back about Chicago and Sam Giancana how they didnt (at the time) have any type of ceremony or structure there. Giancana apparently said something like "you just knew who was in charge and who was in" and they didnt need to make a big thing of it. If memory serves they also had a lot of dealings with the African American's to do with the number games.

wikipedia page about the chicago outfit says that "The Outfit's membership is moderately estimated to be between 50-200 "made" members comprising a core group with more than 1,000 associates estimated".Is this totally wrong?what's the difference between a "made man" and an "associate"??

p.s. sorry if my english is not good but i'm italian....

Perhaps. By his own definition, apparently anyone who answers to No Nose (i.e. John DiFronzo) is a member. Well, for one, we don't get to make up our own definitions. A made member of the Chicago Outfit is just like a made member in any other family. At least since the 70's, they are a made member if they have gone through the formal initiation ceremony. And the number of those type of guys in the Outfit is likely not above 60 at present. Obviously adding associates would be a much larger number. But we can't try and blur the lines between members and associates just to skew the totals.

Yeah, for a long time the Outfit seemed to have forgone the traditional making ceremony. However, as I mentioned above, that apparently changed at least by the 1970's. Outfit turncoat Nick Calabrese talked about when he got made. And his brother, Frank Calabrese, was caught on tape talking about burning the saint card, etc.

As for the numbers racket, the Outfit - under Giancana - saw how much money potential there was and quickly moved to take them over in the black areas in the 1940's. Some black operators, such as Teddy Roe, put up a pretty good fight. But they didn't have the resources to stand up to the mob at that time.

Wikipedia is often one of the worst sources for information on organized crime. Anyone can just come and make up whatever they want. Sometimes Wiki articles are useful if they cite sources and have working links to them. But otherwise don't bother.

No that is not what I said you idiot. I said any made member who answers (reports) to No Nose is considered part of the Chicago Outfit. That being said I sit by with the number I cited. I was not using known associates or anything of that nature. I was considering only made men. I told you once I really do not care what you want to believe or if you believe all the stupid shit the FBI wants you to believe. I know what I have seen and what is there.You are a sadly mistaken person if you believe or want to believe that the Chicago Outfit made member count is only 60.

Defintely. Wikipedia is really "the last source" you should consider.

Apparantly, wikipedians, as they are called, aren't really interested in organized crime. That's why they usually don't have their "watchdogs" overseeing those articles.

Just try and read some of those articles about crime families. You will find a lot of bad grammar and unreliable or outdated sources.

I'm really curious about the Nebraska faction. How many members are in that faction may I ask? What are they involved in?

Although I'm not a expert of the Outfit, it think it would be only a handful if not less.

Here's a little Mafia 101 for you, Mr. Insider. What makes a guy a "made member" or not is whether he has gone through the formal initiation ceremony. Not who he "answers to." The people who actually answer to DiFronzo directly are said to be very few, i.e. other high level guys in the Outfit. Now, guys way down the line could be said to answer to the boss indirectly by extension. But that could be said about associates (guys who are not made) as well.

You can sit by that 250 number all you want. I doubt anyone will take you seriously. I mean, maybe if you had said 100 or so, you could have convinced a few of the more gullible ones to believe you. But 250? 5 TIMES the average current estimates? And then you start talking about Outfit factions in places like Nebraska? C'mon.

Bottom line, I consider all the available evidence and go from there. You are apparently the one who "wants to believe" the Outfit still has 250 made guys. I don't live in Chicago so I really don't have a dog in this fight. You, like many other Chi-town guys I've encountered, seem to feel the need to defend the reputation of your home town crime family as if they were the Cubs or White Sox.

They're small in numbers but they control all the corn raising and cow tipping rackets in most of the state.

haha almost too good to be true!
LCN going back to their roots as rural Sicilian peasants.
Still, I'm sure that it's a pretty steady source of income, so why not.
But I wonder if they have similar handles in the other under-populated mid-western/northern states with little experience of combatting organized crime. Say Montana, Wisconsin or whatever. Extorting the vast mineral/coal mining activities in these areas would be profitable.

I am an Outfit expert and there is no way in hell they have 250 made members.

Maybe you grew up around some guys who owned a pizza parlor who liked to pull your chain.

Frank Calabrese told his kid in the late 90s that you could take over the whole thing by getting rid of 7 guys.

Now that's probably more like 3.

Is there anyone in here who thinks The Genovese family isn't the most powerful family on American soil? Aside from capocapo1.

I strongly believe Charles Herbert Gotti's organization is the most powerful.

You might be right. Charlie Herb is a bad motherfucker.

No one who is not in the mob is an "insider" in the mob. They don't even tell their wives and kids what they do let alone the guy down the corner.

Under Capone and Accardo the Chicago Outfit was probably the most powerful criminal organization in the history of the United States but it's all but dead today.

Outside of new york there is only 4 families left according to the fbi. They r philly, new england, new jersey and chicago. Who is thoight to b the most powerful of these 4 families ??? And do we think they all still report to the new york families or do we think they just do there own thing now a days ??

Well there's also L.A. and even though they're a joke, they're still active and seem to own quite a bit of real estate down there.

As far as which of these is the strongest, it's hard to say. If I had to bet, I'd probably say Chicago.

Barber, I assure you there are more than 4 families left outside NY. They may be small but they are still there and have activity. My Dad thought it was finally safe to enter the vending machine business in the St. Louis and found out otherwise.

The 4 you mentioned have much larger size, with Chicago being probably larger than Philly and New England. Not sure how many Decavalcante's are left, but NJ is full of guys from the 5 Families and Philly.

Agreed Vinny, outside of NY, Chicago is likely the strongest.

Don't know much about any other mobs but the Outfit. I would guess Chicago is down to 10-20 "made" members; the majority of their income now comes from the kind of pathetic racket of video poker machines in the dumpier suburbs around the city...haven't killed anyone (at least visibly) in about a decade.

I think the Outfit is more or less dead. The gist of the situation seems to be that there are just a handful of old timers sitting around collecting on their investments.

The young people smart enough to keep it going have no interest and those who might be interested in "joining" aren't smart enough.

There will always be a few guys hanging around claiming lineage probably but the link to the old organization will probably die with John DiFronzo.

Down to 10-20 members? I'm no expert on the Outfit, but I have a feeling you're wrong lol.

I doubt it. The FBI heavily infiltrated the Outfit during Family Secrets/2007. Nick Calabrese spilled the beans on everything; what he didn't spill his brother did to his son in the prison yard when his son Frank Jr. was wearing a wire.

The FBI estimated about 50 made members back in the late 90s; at least half were very old and are now dead.

What I'm saying is the Outfit is working under greater transparency than ever before here. I can give you the names of say six big players and a dozen affiliated guys and there isn't a single one under the age 50-60 and most are far older.

I think the Outfit is on the way out.

Well I hope you're right. Never liked The Outfit. Too many homos.

Ha! I don't know what you're talking about. But if it's an East Coast thing...under Capone, Arcaddo and Giancanna, the Outfit absolutely dwarfed anything you guys had. The Outfit controlled every racket west of the Mississippi, Vegas and to a degree Hollywood. When the CIA wanted to kill Castro they approached Sam Giancana, not whatever loser was running your goombah five families out there.

First, average estimates for current Outfit membership is approximately 50 members. The Chicago Crime Commission estimated 70 back in 1997. More recently, the feds have cited estimates ranging anywhere from 25-50. Nick Calabrese supposedly identified 60 members during the Family Secrets case. And not too long ago the feds supposedly released a the names of 47 made members to the local Chicago press. And judging by the amount of continuing mob activity there, it's likely the total membership is closer to 50 than only 10 or 20.

Second, video poker is a huge money maker for the mob. That, along with sports betting, is the Outfit's bread and butter and brings in millions. And they are still involved in other traditional rackets like loansharking, extortion, burglary rings, as well as legitimate interests such as restaurants, strip clubs, real estate, construction, etc.

Third, as far as recent Outfit hits go, you have Ronnie Jarrett in 1999, Anthony Chiaramonti in 2001, and Tony Zizzo in 2006.

That said, I don't have the same outdated notions about the Outfit many still do. The Outfit was never the most powerful family in the country. That's always been the Genovese family. And today, the Outfit is one of the smaller families left. But it's certainly not dead.

Ivy, I saw that article that named about 50 made members of the Outfit. They also listed about 20-30 associates. I cannot find a copy online.

I agree that the Genovese family is the strongest today, but would argue that the Gambino's eclipsed them during Carlo's reign.

Hahahaha The Outfit is and always has been a joke compared to New York. We're talking five families with well over 1000 made guys in total during the peak of it all. Even back in 1927, Al Capone couldn't touch Lucky Luciano or any of the other guys. You know why? Because of Arnold Rothstein.

As far as Giancana goes, he couldn't even maintain respect within his own organization. How do you think he was perceived outside it? The man was an embarrassment. A loser. And it may not have been true, but I have heard Accardo was a closet homosexual who liked to dress up in woman's clothes and call himself Rhonda.

CHECK AND MATE!

The Feds are notorious for overestimating both the mob’s membership and profits. That "50 estimate" may have been REPORTED recently but it dates back to the early 2000s, at least. If you’re talking about “made guys,” I would guess there’s not a chance it’s anywhere close to 50.

You're right about Zizzo and Chiarmanti.

Guess who the Feds identified as “major mobsters” still on the loose after Family Secrets?

I can’t find that list now but it consisted primarily of DiFronzo ,Joseph Andriacchi, Al Tornabae, Rudy Fratto, Mike Sarno, Frank Caruso and a few others.

Andriacchi is practically dead. Ditto Tornabrae, he’s 90 years old and senile. Fratto is a joke and in prison, Sarno is on the way to prison.

The point is that even throwing out their “biggest fish” the FBI identified a handful of, without exaggerating, very senile old men.

You’re telling me that the FBI or papers can’t finger even one—not one—guy involved in this vast criminal conspiracy under the age of 60?

Outfit is very close to dead.

And I doubt the Genovese were as powerful as Giancana, Accardo or Capone. Capone’s mob had about 3,000 associates at one time.

The truth about Al Capone is far different from the legend of Al Capone. In truth, Al Capone was little more than a successful gang leader who had very limited power over his own city.

agreed

i believed that you've seen casino one to many times my friend. perhaps you also believe that the ice man killed roy demeo, jimmy hoffa, and big paul?

What is this, a sports rivalry? East Coast-West Coast? And loser running the five families?

Hey, I'm not a mob apologist. I try to call these guys out for the scumbag lowlifes that most of them are, but you gotta be kidding me.

While it's true that Chicago always governed itself, without the political connections fostered by Frank Costello and the more pragmatic leaders of the New York families, during the '30s and '40s, and their spreading that political influence out west--yes, out west--the whole thing would have fallen apart 50 years ago.

And just for the record, Sam Giancana was a rat who got what he deserved .

The greatest thing about him is he believes The Outfit has shrunk down to as a little as 10 made guys. 10 homos left . Yet, he loves them and insists they 'dwarfed' anything New York did.

There is so much disinformation on here it's impossible to address it all. Measure it in dollars. Capone was a billionaire--in the 20s. That's nonadjusted dollars. How about Luciano?

Capone's political fixers were Guzik and Humphreys.

There is a lot of myth surrounding Giancana but the CIA thing is real. Those records have been released. Look it up.

I don't "love" them I find the history fascinating.

Read em and weep. Trib article. Feds estimated 25 made guys in 05. The "50" figure is from 1990.

http://www.thelaborers.net/newspapers/chicago_tribune/crackdown_just_latest_hit_on_mob.htm

Why would we weep? I will throw a party when the Chicago Outfit is no more.

Oh yeah? Even in the late 80s the FBI recorded a conversation between Outfit hitman Frank Schweih and a store owner he was extorting. Someone threw out the possibility that NY was trying to infiltrate Chicago and Schweih immeditely dismissed the idea, saying "Those [explatives] know not to come around here. Chicago has the worst reputation in the country."

When you guys had the moronic John Gotti making a "star" of himself until he finally got sent to prison for the rest of his miserable life Tony Accardo was dying peacefully at home having never gone to jail for even a single day.

We have the Yankees and real pizza.

Goodnight .

This isn't an official FBI report. And News reports are notorious for misinterpreted information.

I have an FBI chart of the outfit of 1983 which lists about 175 made members.

So we are to believe that they lost over 100 made guys in just a couple of years?

Tony Accardo was little more than a delusional gambler with Down syndrome. Don't even get me started on Accardo.

And what does John Gotti have to do with this conversation? The man had a bigger ego than Spencer Pratt. I agree, that was his fall. But at least he didn't have Down syndrome!

You've gotta be kidding. The "50 made members" came from a Chicago Crime Commission Report issued in 1990.

They never bothered to do another one after that.

The "news report" is the result of a direct conversation with the FBI. It's the Chicago Tribune. It's a fairly reputable publication. I'm not sure what else you would want. Maybe I'll get John DiFronzo on the phone and you can ask him.

Accardo was actually thought to be a criminal genius. But of course you probably don't care about the opinion of Bill Roemer, the most decorated FBI agent in history.

Roemer. Yes, the guy who wrote War Of The Godfathers, a fictional bullshit story the entire world laughed at. I wish I could forget it.

As a self proclaimed Outfit expert, how can you explain that they lost over 100 made members in just 7 years?

Friend of yours?

Let's not do this. People who come on these boards and claim to personally know famous wiseguys invite doubt. Really.

Welcome to the boards.

I'd love to get John in here and have him weigh in on this.

Should I call him John or Mr. DiFronzo?

yes ive heard that Luciano was about to go on foodstamps near the end. i have nothing against the chicago family what so ever. i mean i dont find them the most interesting.....but i find the luchesses interesting....but i dont go around making up stories about them or glorifying them....they were ranked 3rd....AT THEIR BEST! just because we find someone or a dif family interesting does not give us the right to make up numbers of riches or strength!

vinny if i were you i'd call him Johnny Di. i mean c'mon we all know real life mobsters on here. just the other night tommy shots called me and cried into the phone about how someone has been stealing his candy bars. he then held his ipod up to the phone and we fell asleep listening to bruce springsteen's the river

its times like these that i wish john gotti could get on these messages boards. he sure would call johnnynonos "a c**ks*cuking f*ck**g retard" i think even peter gotti could see this guys bull with his good eye!!!!!

I was being sarcastic about DiFronzo! Of course I don't know him.

Regarding "made guys" I would doubt there were that many "made guys" even in the early 80s. Your chart probably lists all of their associates.

id like to see these charts sonny

Yeah you're right about Petey Gotti. I remember one time me and Petey were playing chess at TG Graziano's place in Staten Island and it took Petey about a minute or two to realize I had checkmated him. You know he wanted to keep going, but after I pointed it out, he realized fairly quickly he was done. Me and TG were laughing our cocks off, but you know Petey man. He's got his own process.

Here's a bad one someone made. Most of those prominently featured are dead.

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/7967/outfitt.gif

Sarcasm is only funny when it's smart, whereas you two were two dense to even understand what I was saying, which was fairly obvious:

I said "What do you want me to do have John DiFronzo call you" in response to someone posting that the Tribune article was not a valid source of information.

Capiche? Or would you like me to explain it in bullet points and all caps?

why would i wanna look at a bad one? anyone can make a bad one! ive seen some of sonny's ( i think it was sonny's) that were very well executed. as for ol one eyed pete.....i truely believe that story....ol petey hes just so damn quirky!

OK, let's take the pissing contest off the boards.

I can't believe you just said capiche. How the hell am I supposed to take you seriously now?

Again, sarcasm with the "capiche."

Oh well it looks like we're all about to get whacked--or as we say here 'knocked down'--like the Spilotros for causing too much trouble.

I won't warn you two again... take this crap off the boards!!

First you say they "dwarfed" all of the five families in New York, and now you say they didn't have that many made guys?

Here you can find the chart:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38578368@N06/

This chart comes from the real deal forum, maybe you've heard of that?

ive been trying to get in touch with the realdeal forum. ivyleague gave me the guys email and he emailed me back and asked me what screen name so i replyed with the same one that i use here and he never got back to me...any thoughts as to why?

Yeah, same here. I emailed him and never got a response.

SB:

It's my opinion that the Outfit was the most powerful criminal organization in America under Capone, Accardo and Giancana. That would be the 20s and then the 50s-60s, diminishing steadily since.

To tell you the truth I don't know a lot about the East Coast mafia. I suppose we would have to decide on a metric of what "power" meant and then look for supporting data. From what I've read Capone's reign was singular and Acarrdo instituted a truly horrifying mechanism of corruption that essentially allowed the Outfit dominion over the city of Chicago, Vegas, Hollywood and all the traditional
mob rackets west of the Mississippi. The level of corruption, the unions they controlled, was mind-boggling. The Chief of Detectives of the Chicago Police--not once, but twice!--turned out to be a mob shill here. Judges were straight out bought and paid for, up until the early 90s. A known and high ranking mob member controlled the most prominent ward in the city for decades.

Like I said, at Capone's height he had around 3,000 people working with/for him, and was, personally, worth a billion dollars in nonadjusted money.

Tommy Accardo and Sam Giancana expanded the Outfit's influence politically to a degree that would shame most Americans. Just how far it went will never be fully known but, as I mentioned, it's a fact--an embarrassing one--that the CIA did really approach him to help with the Castro assassination.

Maybe NY's Five Families tentacles reached just as far. In the limited reading I've done on them, I never encountered that.

SB:

That chart, while excellent, in no way indicates "made guys."

For instance under Tony Spilotro it lists Frank Rosenthal.

For reasons that should be obvious Rosenthal was never a made guy.

Relating back to your question as to how the Outfit could diminish so rapidly, almost everyone on that chart is dead.

For example, every single person in the top two rows of the chart is dead. Of those heading the charts below, only Lombardo is alive.

I don't recognize all of the lieutenants but all of those I recognize all except Marco D'Amico are dead, and he is not a made guy anyway, I've heard.

I can't read the soldiers names.

i would respond but we were told to stop arguing. if that is your opinion due to the research that you have done then you are well entitled to it.

There's your problem. You seem to be doing mostly "guessing" and not much researching.



Good grief, where to begin? First, for somebody who claims to know a lot about the Outfit, you should know Al Tornabene died in May 2009. And he was never senile. In fact, he was said to be helping to run the Outfit prior to his death.

Second, how is Andriacchi "practically dead?" What does that even mean? He's old? Yes, a lot of mob guys are. Doesn't mean they are inactive or not a factor.

Third, why is Fratto a joke? Care to elaborate on that? And yes, he's currently in jail on the bid-rigging charge. As is Sarno. Nevertheless, there are still a number of top level Outfit guys left.

In addition to John DiFronzo (boss) and Joe Andriacchi (underboss), you have Marco D'Amico (possibly the new consigliere), Peter DiFronzo (heads the Elmwood Park/North Side crew), Joe Cullotta (heads the Grand Avenue/West Side crew), John Matassa (heads the Cicero/Melrose Park crew, and Frank Caruso (heads the 26th St/South Side crew).



Seems all you're doing is exaggerating. Going on hyperbole because you don't have many facts.


"What the trial has made clear is even when they are in prison they continue to exert influence and control," said James Wagner, the head of the Chicago Crime Commission, who investigated the mob for years when he was an FBI agent.

Some say it's naive to suggest that because so many of the reputed mobsters, including those on trial, are old, that the Outfit doesn't have people ready to step in and take over for the old mobsters, referred to as "Mustache Petes."

"They're still there, there's still young guys coming up," said Jack O'Rourke, a retired FBI agent who also spent years investigating the Chicago mob. "And they're still powerful enough to kill guys."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-08-25-1590323796_x.htm



Here's 2. Mike Sarno is 53. Nick Ferriola is 35.



Are you going to just keep saying that or are you actually going to provide some evidence of this claim? Because I can provide quite a long list of Outfit cases over the past decade that say otherwise.



Considering your admitted lack of knowledge on the east coast families, as well as your apparent lack of knowledge on the Outfit, I guess this isn't even worth responding to.



I'm confused. You just got done discrediting the feds estimates but, when you find one that suits your argument, they suddenly have credibility? As I said before, over the past decade the estimates have ranged anywhere from a low of 25 to a high of 60. And even the most conservative 25 member estimate is more than the 10-20 figure you pulled out of thin air.


December 2000 -
While the Outfit once claimed hundreds of inducted, or "made," members, today that figure has dwindled to perhaps 50.
http://www.laborers.org/ChicagoMag_Moblite_12_00.htm

August 2002 -
In the 1980s, the Chicago mob had roughly 200 "made" members, each of whom ran his own various illegal businesses. Today, according to the FBI, the mob is down to about 50 made members.
http://www.ipsn.org/characters/new_outfit.htm

May 2005 -
The FBI estimates that Chicago now only has 25 "made" members and another 75 organized crime associates. Federal authorities said that 15 years ago the mob had 50 "made" members and as many as 400 associates.
http://www.labor-unions.net/newspapers/chicago_tribune/crackdown_just_latest_hit_on_mob.htm

September 2007 -
Robert D. Grant, special agent in charge of the FBI's Chicago office, said the city is still plagued by 28 "made guys" and more than 100 associates who do the dirty work but are in the mob's inner circle.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-09-27-3043193147_x.htm

September 2007
We have dozens of open investigations,' John Mallul, supervisor of the FBI's organized crime unit in Chicago, said in an interview.....Mallul estimates the Outfit has about 30 'made' members and a little more than 100 associates.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-169287805.html

March 2009 -
In addition to the 14 murders, Calabrese confessed to, he told prosecutors about 60 names of made men in the Outfit.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/mob/2009/03/what_the_prosecution_says_abou.html



Actually, the Chicago Crime Commission estimated 70 members back in 1997. Two years later, in 1999, the FBI released a list of 47 made members of the Outfit to the Chicago press.

Check your PM's.

I think they meant as far as the pissing contest between New York and Chicago. Which isn't the same as debating the available facts.

That particular chart was compiled by two posters over on the Real Deal forum. One of them is Scott Bernstein, who was the co-author of "Family Affair," one of the books written on the Family Secrets case. Even though the Outfit started using the traditional making ceremony since at least the 1970's, it's still harder to identify which guys are formally inducted. That chart is rather expansive in terms of who is connected to the Outfit but by no means is most of the names on it dead. Only a few are and they are listed as "deceased."

OMG i cant believe its taken me this long to read this whole thing. Classic. So many fanboys. I remember when i used to follow mobsters for all the wrong reasons.

Its not the 30's 40's or 50's any more. Or even the 60's or 70's.
(No shit Sherlock! i hear you saying) Well my point is the things we all know that some of us choose not to see. Cousin Rico's around now. The braintrust is gone. General attrition & being squeezed out by newer & bigger groups. These are things we all know.

There's nothing wrong with following & researching interests. But so many posters seem to be actively cheering for these guys.
Im i the only one that feels that a mobster, by virtue of being a mobster, deserves all he gets when brought to justice? Mob life revolves around criminal acts (duh) These guys are not cool or honorable. They are murderous douchbags. The only respectable thing about a mobster is one who accepts his punishment for his life of crime.

That being said... again, i vote definitely Genovese. But even they with being the strongest Family, considering how weak they are now compared with decades ago, the American Mafia as a whole is definitely a shambles.

Its the cartels & the Calabrians we need to watch now. That problem will only get worse before it gets better.

So you're essentially bickering over 5-10 guys.

Hey, I'll give them to you. Maybe the Outfit has 30 made guys. I made my estimate because I've read and continue to read nearly all available information on the Outfit and nearly all of the same names pop up. Of course there's guesswork involved: Thus the FBI's estimate of "25-60" ten years ago. And I am clearly not the FBI.

Let's try this: Name me a new mobster identified by the FBI or the press who's name hasn't been circulating since at least the 90s. Even one. Even one single young turk.

Nick Ferriola went to prison for crimes committed in the 90s.

Frank Calabrese suggested vast entropy of the Outfit in the late 90s or early 2000s when he told his son "you could take the whole thing over by taking out seven guys, it's gotten to that point." No doubt that included the DiFronzos, the Marcellos, Sarno, Andriacchi, Tornabae. All ancient except Sarno.

Their main racket is video poker. You may not think that's lame. Most people do. Including Lombardo defense attorney Joe Lopez who after Family Secrets said, and I'm paraphrasing, "Outfit's dead. What is it, 200 poker machines in Cicero?"

Harry Aleman: "It's over. Who's taking bets? Maybe a few Jews on the North Side."

Aside from the allegorical and statistical evidence the Outfit is an archaic entity for a host of sociological reasons that I will get into if you want me to, but they basically include: No Italian neighborhoods, the assimilation of Italian Americans, RICO and progression in crime fighting.

And I don't know which chart you're referring to but on the chart on flickr nearly all of the people who aren't listed as "soldiers" are dead as doornails and have been for decades.

Of course I'm guessing. We all are.

Most of us aren't fans of the mob. I'm certainly no fan, but I must admit I enjoy messing with mob groupies. They're so emotional.

I think you can definitely make a case about the Outfit being the most powerful crime organization in those years.

For many years, from the 1920s to the early 1980s they probably rivaled the Gambino and Genovese families.



That's correct. But if you look closely you see that Rosenthal isn't listed as a "soldier".

That's the Las Vegas crew of Spilotro, and he was the only made guy of that crew as far as I know.

But if you look at all of the other crews you see that those men are in fact listed as "soldiers".

However, I can't verify this really is an FBI chart, but seeing how much attention is paid to details, it looks pretty authentic to me.

Interesting articles. The first one supports the 1983 chart I posted.

But the second one states that they suddenly had 50 made guys in 1990, which is only 7 years later.

Which of these two articles is more reliable? And if they are both true, how do they explain the sudden diminishing of Outfit membership in only 7 years?

And how trustworthy is Nick Calabrese?

Regarding all of the articles cited:

First one: 50 members in 2000.

Second: 50 in 2002.

Third: 25 in 2005.

Fourth: 28 in 2007.

Fifth: 30 in 2007.

Sixth: 60 in 2009.

Everything is fairly consistent except for the Calabrese number. That's pretty compelling and I'd never heard it before. It seems odd that Calabrese identified 60 active made men in 2009 when estimates were significantly lower 5, 10 years ago, but that does appear to be what the article says. However, I am left wondering if something was lost in translation. He started cooperating in 2002 and had been in jail since 97.

He's viewed as extraordinarily reliable.

Would you say he's more reliable than you?

Johnny, I agree that Calabrese is considered highly reliable. We all know the numbers are a moving target with time. I read the Family Secrets book by Cohen, and Calabrese testified that he met guys from other crews during hits that he had never known before. I suspect he knew of heard about made guys from other crews, but it is unlikely he knew every made guy in the Outfit.

I'm not saying I don't believe it, just that I would like to know more about it, that's all. When he said it, context, other stories elaborating on it.

Tony,

That's a great, great book. You're exactly right, often the made guys don't even know the other made guys or guys you would expect them to know from other crews.

Now that all this information has been presented to you, would you be willing to admit you're quite possibly wrong about the 10-20 number?

The only compelling new information presented to me is the Calabrese testimony. Despite reading Family Secrets about three times, I'd never read that stat; I don't think it was in there.

Everything else is essentially in line with what I originally thought.

Sure I could be wrong. I guess it comes down to which statistics you want to believe.

For reasons I've already gone over I'm more inclined to believe the lower end stats from the early-mid 2000s.

Factor in everyone who's gone to jail since then, the very consistent, and drastic, decline of the mob since the 80s, the utter lack of any information on new Chicago mob members, the very minimal mob activity that's been reported on since the 90s, and I think I'm more right than not.

Do you admit I could be right?

Of course you could be right. But then again, a conspiracy nut could be right about Obama being an extra terrestrial being working for The Israelis. Timmy, the six year old Hannah Montana fan could be right about Santa Claus. Now with that being said and taking in consideration everything I know, I think the chances of you, conspiracy nut or Timmy being right are exceptionally slim.

I always found the Outfit interesting in the sense that they don't have nearly as many internal power stuggles, informants, and other stuff that plagues the New York families. I don't know a lot about them nor have I read through this whole back and forth on here, but they've always seemed a little more older and disciplined than (at least 4 of) the NY families and other North East families. They kind of remind me of a smaller version of the Genovese. Strength doesn't always have to lie in numbers, either.

I wonder what their younger ranks are looking like these days. Are they actively making new guys? Young guys? How often do you think guys are even made out there? Their structure is kinda neat too...how they have Crew Captains, then a 'Street Boss' (seems like a Lieutenant) between the Soliders and the Crew Captain

Admittedly, when you have estimates ranging anywhere from 25 to 60 members, that can be confusing. That's why I take other factors into consideration. For one, the ongoing mob activity in Chicago as compared to families in other cities and how many members they have. Detroit, for example, still has about 25 or so total made members left and it doesn't have nearly as much mob activity as Chicago does. More comparable to Chicago's activity are families in New England and Philadelphia, each of which have about 50 members. And Chicago is said to still be stronger than they are. As I said before, because of the Outfits insular nature, we'll probably never be able to identify most of the made guys like we can in other families. But all things considered, I think it's more likely that it still has about 50 members than only half of that.

I'm not sure I'd consider one of the defense attorneys a good source on the current standing of the Outfit. After all, it's his job to make people believe there is nothing going on. And it's not like Aleman is going to talk up the Outfit either. When I get some more time, I'll post Outfit-related cases over the past decade. There might be more going on than you think.

For the record, their main racket remains sports betting. Video poker can be lumped in there, I suppose, because they are both forms of gambling. In any case, the Outfit still brings in millions from its gambling operations.

I think we have a reasonable divergence of opinion.

To answer TT:

The only thing I've ever heard about any new members is Jimmy Marcello was caught on tape before Family Secrets (this is probably early-mid 2000s you can Google it if you are interested) saying he knew some "young guys capable of work" ie murder.

Beyond that I read on a blog that there's a new young boss of the 26 St. Crew since F Calabrese went to prison. I go to that bar he's supposed to be at sometimes and I asked the bartender if he knew him and he said he did.

But I don't think they're going to be getting many good new recruits. The world these guys came from is gone. Please take the following with a grain of salt as it is just my opinion.

In the working class neighborhoods in Chicago even up until the 80s the mob was a relatively common thing. If you were a young man growing up here you knew people, probably, and definitely knew people who knew people. That exists today, to the tiny degree it does, almost exclusively in Bridgeport.

Many of the Chicago guys came from Grand Avenue which is now about as Italian as the Olive Garden.

I can only imagine most Italian young men today would be horrified at the proposition of joining the mob when they can simply go to law school, make more money, and live longer, opportunities that did not exist for the most recent crop of gangsters arrested in Family Secrets.

Yes, that's true about defense attorneys--just as it benefits the FBI and media to exaggerate the profits and membership.

I think we have completely diverged from the original question - which family is strongest now?

IMO, that is clearly the Genovese Family.

The question was not which family was strongest in the 20's, 50' or 70's. That should be a separate thread. Hell, have a separate thread for each decade.

I think the bigger question is who is strongest after the Genovese's? I rank them accordingly:

2) Gambino
3a) Lucchese
3b) Chicago
4) Columbo
5) Bonnano (or is it Massino?)
6) Philly
7a) Toronto / Hamilton
7b) New England / RI / Boston (or whatever)
8) Decavalcante
9) Montreal (or what is left of it that has not already been absorbed by Toronto)

Everywhere else is minor leagues compared to these. I guess I should have started a new thread so the debate can begin.

I assure you it's not known as the Massino family anymore. Jesus man, I can't believe you just did that.

I think the Bonanno family is much more stronger than Chicago. They have at least twice as many members as the Outfit. Even the Colombo's are probably stronger.

And I would even think that the New England family has surpased Chicago in recent years.

And the list is probably more like this
2) Gambino
3) Lucchese
4) Bonanno
5) Colombo
6) don't care
7) don't care
8) don't care
9) don't care
10) i don't give a fuck

I don't know about New England, but the Bonannos are definitely way more powerful than Chicago. The Colombos too, but the gap isn't as big there.

Vin, the Massino crack was for you and I thought it would draw a response. I think the Bonnano's have been one of the more interesting families to watch because of the characters / personalities, clanish nature and infiltration from Pistone.

Massino brought them back, but his flip has got to be the biggest of them all. And it is possible that your Avatar namesake will go the chair for it!

And that opinion, my friend, is why a lot of people cannot stand NY'ers. NY may be the center of the mob universe, but it ain't got a monopoly.

General attrition and the declining pool of recruits has effected every mob family. Some more so than others, of course. It has led to the extinction of several families altogether. But after New York and the rest of the northeast, Chicago is the next largest center as far as Italians go. The Outfit has been said to have intentionally downsized and streamlined its organization and operations but I don't see why its hard to believe they can't still maintain about 50 made guys. Again, that would make them one of the 4 remaining smaller viable families along with New England, New Jersey, and Philadelphia.

Some recent articles on the modern day Chicago Outfit...

http://www.ipsn.org/characters/new_outfit.htm
http://www.laborers.org/ChicagoMag_Moblite_12_00.htm
http://www.ipsn.org/living_the_high_life.htm



Outfit-related cases over the past decade...


In April 2000, 7 people tied to the Outfit, including Anthony Dote, Carl Dote, and Donald Scalise, and were indicted in Chicago on charges of racketeering and gambling involving a sports betting operation that netted $2 million over 3 years.

In April 2000, 8 people, including former police detective William Handhart, were indicted in Chicago on charges of running a $10 million jewelry theft ring, which had ties to the Outfit, that included 8 separate thefts of jewelry, watches, etc. in Wisconsin , Michigan , Ohio , Minnesota , Texas , Arizona , and California.

In November 2000, an ex-official of LIUNA Local 5, long connected to the Outfit, was indicted in Chicago of embezzling $473,106 in union funds through increased salaries, bonuses, and vacations that benefited him, his wife, and former Secretary-Treasurer James DiForti, an Outfit associate.

In January 2001, 3 Chicago Outfit members, Frank Caruso Jr., Bruno Caruso, and Leo Caruso, all officials of LIUNA Locals 1001, 1006, and the Chicago Laborers District Council were removed from their positions. In May 2004, Local 1001 was put under federal trusteeship due to ongoing corruption and Outfit control.

In March 2001, Illinois state regulators denied a license to Emerald Casino Inc. to operate a gambling boat in Rosemont, citing the group's alleged Outfit connections. In July 2001, it was reported that Outfit associates involved with the casino had donated almost $150,000 to local public officials. In December 2002, the Illinois Gaming Board banned D&P Construction, owned by Outfit boss John "No Nose" DiFronzo, from hauling trash from the casino. In 2005, 2007, and 2009, the local media reported on DiFronzo's companies, D&P Construction and JKS Ventures, which had received contracts from local townships.

In June 2001, 10 people, including Outfit members Michael Spano and James Inendino, as well as the mayor of Cicero , were indicted in Chicago on charges of racketeering, bribery, official misconduct, wire fraud, bank fraud, mail fraud, interstate transportation of stolen property, tax evasion conspiracy, and money laundering involving the diversion of over $10 million from Cicero's insurance funds for personal benefit. Inendino would later be investiagated in April 2010 regarding his operations outside a local currency exchange.

In October 2001, the Grand Victoria Casino in Elgin , Illinois was forced to pay a $3 million fine for giving a $300,000 air handling contract to the son of an Outfit figure. In April 2003, the casino was fined $7.2 million for giving out contracts to Outfit-connected companies.

In February 2002, 8 people tied to the Outfit, including William "Billy D" DiDomenico, were indicted in Chicago on charges of running a sports betting operation over a 10 year period.

In March 2002, Richard Caravetta, an official of LIUNA Local 2, resigned due his Outfit ties and various union violations.

In April 2002, 10 Outfit members and associates, including James "Jimmy" Cozzo, were indicted in Chicago for skimming over $3.2 million, allegedly for a casino in Caracao, from illegal bingo games carried out by using veteran's groups as fronts at the Grand Palace bingo hall.

In April 2002, an Outfit associate, Anthony Giannone, pled guilty in Chicago for conspiring to possess and distribute more than 100 kilos of marijuana.

In May 2002, 2 Outfit associates, Nick Boscarino and Ralph Aulenta, were indicted in Chicago on charges of tax fraud, insurance fraud, and money laundering involving the siphoning of over $460,000 from the Village of Rosemont through a mob-owned insurance company.

In May 2002, an official of IBT Union Local 714, tied to the Outfit, was expelled due to a plot to drive down wages and benefits for IBT Local 631 in Las Vegas . In October 2002, the report "The Teamsters: Perception and Reality" was released, resulting from the RISE investigation into ongoing Outfit influence and corruption in the Teamsters Union, which included investigations into IBT Locals 330, 714, 726, 727, 743, 781, 786, in Chicago.

In February 2003, 17 people involved with the Crazy Horse Too strip club in Nevada , tied to the Outfit, were indicted on charges of racketeering, corruption, extortion, robbery, and tax fraud.

In January 2004, 3 people, including Paul Karoluk, are indicted for running a multimillion dollar burglary ring tied to the Outfit.

In July 2004, after being banned in the 1990's from Laborers Union, Cicero/Melrose Park crew boss, John "Pudgy" Matassa Jr., was reported to be overseeing the Amalgamated Transit Workers Union Local 711.

In November 2004, the "Hired Truck Program" scandal broke, in which at least 28 people and 26 trucking and carting companies, including ones tied to the Outfit, and the city's Streets and Sanitation, Transportation, and Water Departments, were charged in a series of indictments with racketeering conspiracy, bribery, bid-rigging, theft, billing at union (IBT Local 726) wages while using non-union labor, and obstruction of justice in a scheme to obtain $40 million in city contracts.

In February 2005, it was reported that a tribal casino boat off the coast of Cancun Mexico had investors with Outfit ties.

In April 2005, 14 Outfit members and associates, including administration members James "Jimmy the Man" Marcello and Joseph "The Clown" Lombardo, and and South Side/26th Street member Frank "Brankie Breeze" Calabrese, were indicted on charges of racketeering, conspiracy, running sports betting and video poker operations, extorting a "street tax" from restaurant and 2 porn shops, tax evasion, and multiple murder counts. In January 2007, a U.S. Marshal, John Ambrose, was indicted in Chicago with illegally disclosing information about turncoat Nicholas Calabrese to Outfit members.

In February 2006, 9 people tied to the Outfit, including John "Tiger" Frisella, were indicted in Rockford for running a sports betting operation that netted $500,000.

In July 2008, Outfit associate, Anthony Calabrese, was convicted for running a burglary ring.

In March 2009, a civil RICO complaint was filed in Chicago against 7 Outfit members and associates, including boss John "No Nose" DiFronzo and Elmwood Park crew bosses, Peter "Greedy Petey" Fratto and Rudolph "Uncle Rudy" Fratto, that charged them with extortion, intimidation, loansharking, and murder conspiracy involving the ownership in a Melrose Park medical clinic and the shaking down of one of it's patients, Joseph Fosco, the son of a former mob-connected labor union boss.

In May 2009, 8 Outfit members and associates, including Grand Avenue crew street boss, Michael "The Large Guy" Sarno, and a Berwyn police officer, were indicted on charges of racketeering, conspiracy, engaging in nine jewelry robberies worth over $1.8 million, transportation and fencing of stolen cigarettes, arson in the form of employing the Outlaw Motorcycle Gang to detonate a pipe bomb at a rival video poker business, running video poker operations, obstruction of a criminal investigation, wire fraud, and tax evasion.

In September 2009, Elmwood Park crew street boss, Rudolph "Uncle Rudy" Fratto, was indicted on charges of tax evasion. In March 2010, Fratto and an associate were indicted in Chicago on charges of mail fraud in connection with a contract bid-rigging scheme to provide forklift trucks for local trade shows.

In December 2009, approximately 10-12 local bars and taverns in Chicago were raided involving an investigation into Outfit-connected video poker machines.

As for the current remaining viable families....

The Genovese family is #1, as it always has been. The Gambinos are a strong #2, pretty much as it always has been. Those are your two large, powerhouse families, each with about 200 members, and who are the most active, expansive, and diversified.

The gap between the three mid-sized families, the Luccheses, Colombos, and Bonannos, is closer than a lot of people think. They are all relatively the same in size with about 100 members each. If one insisted in putting them in a specific order, the Luccheses would probably be next. An argument can be made either way for whether the Colombos or Boanannos would come last. But there really isn't that much of a difference.

Then you have the four smaller families, each with about 50 members or so. Chicago would still be next in line but it's much more comparable to other families in that same category in size and activity than many think who are still stuck back in the 1950's. After the Outfit, I'd probably say New England would come next. And an argument could be made whether New Jersey or Philadelphia would come after. To me, it's like splitting hairs.

Those are the 9 families still considered viable by the feds. Yes, it can be said there is more of what is left of the mob in Detroit and Buffalo than Pittsburgh or St. Louis but it none of them are much of a factor at this point.

Haha...throwing in Fosco's civil RICO complaint, eh?

I'm sure that would delight him!

Yes of course there are a few mob-related busts a year. I was a the Sarno trial actually. These were not members of a sleek new streamlined criminal organization readily adapting to the 21st century.

They were old white trash breaking into fifth-rate jewelry stores in dingy neighborhoods near the airport and pawning the jewelry at 15 percent of retail.

I could be wrong but wasn't the Hired Truck program mostly smoke? Like out of the 110 contracts awarded, one went to a firm owned by a reputed mobster or ex mobster. Then the papers wrote MOB in 75 point font.

What I just said has NOTHING to do with NY. I'm not even from NY. Frankly, I'm more attracted to Miami and Vegas...and the pornstars in San Fernando Valley.

As for back in the day.....


The Chicago Outfit was one of 7 families that were on the original Commission established in 1931, along with the five New York families and Buffalo. The Genovese family represented most of the eastern families on the Commission. The Outfit represented most of the western families. By the 1960's, the ties between the families across the nation had started to become weaker and the Outfit missed more and more Commission meetings. This eventually resulted in a sort of "two headed" Commission with the New York and other eastern families in one and the Outfit resolving issues regarding western families in the other. The only remaining common interests were open areas like Florida, Nevada, and California, and the national unions like the Teamsters, Laborers, and Hotel Employees Union.

There is really no argument that the northeast was always a more important Mafia base than the midwest. With New York itself being ground zero for all things Mafia. The Genovese were not only the most powerful family in New York. The families they represented in the east were larger and more important than the ones the Outfit represented in the west.

At its peak the Outfit was well known for its strong political clout. If any family could rival this during the same time frame in the 1950's and 1960's, it was the Genovese family in New York and New Jersey. Frank Costello had as much political influence as guys like Guzik, Humphries, or Alex ever had.

Besides controlling several Teamsters and Laborers Union Locals, as well as a few Hotel Employees Union locals, the Outfit had considerable clout over those unions on a national scale and their pension funds. The difference is, the Genovese family controlled even more Teamster and Laborers locals, and about the same number of Hotel Employees Union locals. And they had comparative influence on a national level. Through their extensive involvement in these unions that was seen nowhere else outside of New York, the Genovese were able to control (along with the other New York families) the construction industry, trucking industry, garbage industry, the garment center, the trade show industry at the Javits Center, the waterfront, the Fulton Fish market, etc. Plus, the Genovese shared controlled of the 4th major labor union, the ILA, with the Gambinos, and had sway on the docks in Manhattan, New Jersey, and Miami.

At their peak, both families operated in several locations. In the 1950's and 1960's, after the Outfit, the Genovese family had the most interest in Las Vegas hotels. The Genovese family had extensive interests in the entertainment industry. And the Genovese have always been said to have the largest mob gambling operations in the country. And, at their peak, the Genovese had over 400 members. The Outfit maybe had half of that at its peak.

I'm starting to realize that it's a lost cause with you. You have your preconceived notion - based on basically nothing besides assumptions and you thinking you have a first hand knowledge because you talk to people in bars and were at the Sarno trial - and there is no amount of information or evidence that can be put in front of you that will change your mind.

Once again, I could totally see your point if I was like many others who have outdated ideas about the Outfit. Like those who claim it still runs Chicago with an iron fist. I've gotten into many debates with what I call Chicago Outfit fan boys. But I'm not saying that at all. In fact, I'm saying that the Outfit is now one of a few smaller families left after the New York families. But they are not dead, or nearly so, like you claim.

You can accept the available facts or you can just keep pretending like you have it all figured out.

You forgot about Jerry Scalise and Arthur Reichel!

Agree with almost every single word you said here Ivy. I'm not so sure if the Genoveses have always been the most powerful family, but we've had that debate before of course.


You can say that again.

Like many others, I used to think the Gambinos were #1. I had read all the same books on that family, of which there are many, while there isn't much on the Genovese. I've read many of the same claims back in the 70's and 80's about the Gambinos being the top family. And I think during that time frame, they certainly rivaled the Genovese in many ways. But once you start to dig deeper, you get a different picture. You see that Carlo Gambino being the top boss in his time didn't automatically make the Gambinos the strongest family. Just like Massino being the top boss for a time didn't make the Bonannos the strongest family. Likewise, you see that the Genovese were not suffering from a lack of leadership at all like many thought. They just couldn't identify who was leading the family for many years, which of course, was by design.

The Genovese have always had an edge since the beginning. From its early stages in the Morello gang to the Masseria family later on. To Luciano and Costello after that. Then onto guys like Funzi Tieri, Tony Salerno, and the Chin. They've always had the most competent leadership. They've always been said to be the richest family. Even when the Gambinos were slightly larger in size, the Genovese were always considered wealthier and more sophisticated. It's the Genovese that are called the "Ivy League or the Underworld" and "Rolls Royce of Organized Crime." Not the Gambinos. Or the Outfit.

I don't think I have a first hand knowledge of anything. Those were just things I did that were interesting to me and my impressions.

I'm not even arguing anything anymore.

This whole discussion got started because someone wrote that the Outfit had 200 made members which I said was ridiculous.

We obviously have different impressions of where the Outfit is and its near future but I don't pretend to have definitive knowledge on the subject.

But no, I don't think low-end jewelry thieving and video poker are indicative of a real healthy, cutting-edge criminal organization, particularly compared to the very real and frightening political and financial power it wielded until the early 90s.

The RATE of decay is the writing on the wall.

The Philly Mob may not be the biggest, but it is the strongest and best run.Thanks 2 Uncle Joe!

Anyone who thinks the Outfit still has 200 members is clearly uninformed. But so are those who think video poker and low end jewelry heists are all there is left to the Outfit. And nobody is saying they are what they were 20 years ago. No family is. But having declined does not mean dead.

Listen, you may be right and you certainly know your stuff. I truly enjoy reading your comments and even though I don't always agree or view certain things the same way, you're certainly one of the most reliable and most knowledgeable guys in here imho. What bothers me about The Genovese family is how little we truly know about them. That is of course a testament to how competent they are. When you look at their past leaders, I can certainly see why you come to this conclusion. The Bonanno era under Massino has been of great interest to me and they were definitely getting very wealthy at the end. Now they may not have been as wealthy as The Genovese, but they were definitely on a fast roll. Perhaps too fast.

I will say this though, I've always seen The Genovese family as the most powerful family. The Gambinos may have come close, but they just didn't have the same reach and you've given plenty examples of that. Due to his political connections, Costello was quite possibly the most powerful mob boss in history. Then you got Vito, Jerry Catena, Joe Adonis, Benny Squint, Miranda, Fat Tony and of course Jimmy Alo. All of these men had control over hundreds and not just the same guys. They were bosses in their own right.

That's why I go by what law enforcement officials, journalists, and mob figures have said about them.

yeah the genovese are def the most interesting to me too . a lot of the more recent bosses/alledged bosses/admin members kind of have a similar background. grew up in the city or in the BX, were boxers, and are all quiet and low key as they come. i think that's kinda neat. you can kinda tell the genovese's top guys were built for it, where as some of the other families top guys...not so much.

regardless though..as low key as they are none of them have been able to avoid jail or parole

where can i read info on Philip Lombardo? is there anything out there on him (besides wiki)

Sorry Vin and Ivy, but I think the Gambino's eclipsed the Genovese's under Carlo, for a period of time, not the whole time, but certainly for 5 - 10 years before he died. Don't forget he loaned Tommy Eboli $ and had him killed for not repaying, then pushed for Tieri to become boss of the Genovese's.

IMO, the Genovese's are the strongest today, and throughout modern history, but they did not have a clean run in the top spot.

There is no way to measure the wealth, but we can get a sense of power, and Carlo had it.

"Carlo Gambino was a squirrel of a man" - Joe Bonanno
"I'll make Carlo Gambino shit in the middle of Times Square" - Carmine Galante
"He was a homo" - Vinny Gorgeous

I love Galante's line, but I am a betting man that he never got that pile of mud dropped. Instead, Dellacroce and Whack Whack got picked up on FBI surveillance tapes hugging it out when Carmine tasted his lead.

Vin, let's just agree to disagree.

I'm just busting balls man, I know Carlo was one of the most powerful people in America at one point. I don't think he had more power than Jerry Catena or Benny Squint. Or Alo, who had guys like Lansky with him.

But yeah, let's agree to disagree.

Something tells me that Eboli, even though he was only an acting boss for the Genovese, didn't exactly need money from Gambino for a drug deal. Furthermore, I don't believe Gambino was able to just kill a high level Genovese guy like that by himself. It's likely more complicated than that. Like when the Genovese killed the Gambino family's captain in Connecticut - Frank Piccolo. Castellano had given his OK.

And Gambino wanting Tieri to take over isn't the same as him telling the Genovese, "This is who your new boss is." Which, for instance, is what happened when the Genovese family installed Scarfo as the new boss in Philadelphia or Nicky Bianco up in New England.

At his peak in the 1960's and early 1970's, I think Carlo was the first among equals, so to speak. But this idea that he was the "boss of bosses" who had defacto sway over other families isn't true. There's never been such a thing in the American mob. And once again, being the top boss doesn't automatically make his organization the top family.

I think the Gambinos rivaled the Genovese in many ways for about 25 years from the late 1960's to the early 1990's. You could say they were #1 and #1A. But I don't think they ever supplanted the Genovese over all.

Ivy i never knew the genovese family inserted nicky bianco into the boss in new englland. Would that mean they sided with the renegade faction of the patriarca family that was trying to push out patriarca jr and grasso ???

I would be interested to see any materials suggesting video poker is not the Outfits main racket these days. I've seen video poker cited many times but for arguments sake I'll reference John Binders

i like many other people here have a hard time swallowing that the strongest family outside of new york main raquet is nothing but video poker. we all know that every family some way or another is involved in narcotics. narcotics is prob the biggest money maker out there. if you have all these materials that you've seen sited suggesting this please post links or the hardcore info and who is john binders? sorry but i don't know who he is and did try to google him to do my own research but could find nothing. please don't tell me he's the bartender that feeds you your inside info.

John Binder is widely regarded as the city's greatest, or at least most visible, authority on the Chicago Outfit past and present and is regularly interviewed on local news. For instance he recently demolished an ill-founded, yet popular, book hawking a "new theory" [it actually wasn't new at all] on the St. Valentine's Day Massacre.) He's the author of the 2003 Book "The Chicago Outfit." (Aracdia.)

Know what business Jimmy Marcello, the acting head of the mob, was running, when arrested? A video poker business, M & M Amuesment.

Here's one article, reprinted from the Sun Times, written by Steve Warmiber, one of the city's most well known Outfit reporters: "Video gambling is the mob's lifeblood, pumping millions of dollars every year into the Outfit's coffers."

http://www.ipsn.org/gambling/feds_zero_in_on_video_poker_king.htm

You know what I wanna know. I wanna know which family is the weakest family in the United States. Like 2 guys left, boss and underboss. They control one video poker machine and have to share the profits it with five transsexuals. I just need a good laugh.

im gonna say pittsburgh or Kansas city

Ivy, I did not say or suggest that Carlo was boss of bosses, but I think it fair to say, and it is generally held, that Carlo had greater power than any other boss at that time.

Clearly, the Gambino, Genovese and Lucchese families were tightly aligned. I think Carlo was more of a puppet master - he was a great strategist. Some of it is legend, but some is fact.

After Carlo, the power moved back to the Genovese's because Big Paul was a limp dick pussy. Just ask Gloria (or anyone from the Bergin).

Vin....you crack me up. 5 Trany's - where do you think of this sh*t?!?!?

The weakest tit family has got to be the Nebraska branch of the Outfit that jackass was touting on the other thread.

I just researched this for my blog Cosa Nostra News -- the Genovese Family, not the Gambinos, is now recognized as the most powerful Cosa Nostra family in the United States.

I also tried to put together briefs on who is running each of the Five New York Families and one trend leaps out: It seems triumvirates are replacing the long-standing tradition of a single-boss institution. It's like they are taking the boss, underboss and consiglieri, making them of equal rank, and creating a panel to run some of the families (about three use this kind of panel).

They may be doing this because it could help them in that it could confuse the Feds, who like those pyramid charts with all the headshots taped to the wall, stop any one man from becoming too powerful, and ease potential problems that could arise if factions are created.

What about Detroit and Kansas City?

What I've read in you're other posts is very convincing. I don't think the Gambino's ever 'supplanted' the Genovese, but I really think that from the mid 1960s to the mid 1970s the Gambinos were as powerful as the Genoveses, and because they had the most powerful boss they may have had a slight edge.

If the difference was as minor as the #1 and #1a you state it's as good as impossible to actually measure the difference in power.

Here is my understanding of who had control over, or a piece of, the casinos in Vegas years ago:

The Flamingo - opened by Bugsy with NY $, primarily Genovese Family $ and Lansky. Bought by Hilton in 1971.

The Stardust - Chicago and Cleveland.

The Tropicana - Frank Costello and the Genovese's.

The Aladdin - St. Louis (Shenker) and Detroit

The Dunes - Chicago and St. Louis (Shenker)

The Sands - Genovese, Lansky and Stacher. Sinatra owned a piece later.

The Desert Inn - Dalitz, Cleveland and Chicago.

The Frontier - St. Louis (Giordano) and Chicago

The Riviera - Chicago

The Fremont, Circus-Circus & the Hacienda - Chicago briefly.

I agree, in the 1950's and 60's, the Genovese's controlled more casinos after the Outfit.

I think the Bonanno's were one of two or three strongest families until the Massino/Vitale debacle in the mid 2000's. From reading all the stuff Vitale gave up they had a lot of big money makers and guys on the street before everyone started to flip, and that was at a time when many of the so called experts considered them a joke.

The Tropicana was later controlled by the Kansas City family.

http://www.onlinenevada.org/las_vegas_mob

Sonny - you are correct, the KC family took charge after the Atlantic City agreement. But let's not kid ourselves, KC was very much under the thumb of the Outfit.

I don't recall if the Genovese family took a side in that conflict. But after Grasso's death, Genovese consigliere Joey Ida was overheard on a bug talking about how they had "picked the new administration" after "Chin had selected the names." Similar to what happened after Phil Testa was killed in Philadelphia and the Genovese installed Scarfo as the new boss.



First, I have to say that it's a little strange that you're now trying to argue that video gambling is the Outfit's #1 money maker. Weren't you the guy who was just quoting one the defense attorneys talking about only a couple hundred machines left in Cicero as part of your case about the state of the mob there?

Second, there are a number of articles stating what is considered common knowledge - that gambling is the lifeblood of the Outfit, as it is any other mob family. Most don't really break it down further into how much comes in from different forms of gambling. Sports betting is the most common to all families though. Most still have video poker machines. Some still have involvement in the numbers racket, though it is much smaller now and usually just seems to be an appendage of the sports betting. And some still are involved in illegal high-stakes card games.

Binder himself wrote how the Outfit "retrenched itself around sports betting and video poker" in the 1990's. I would take with a grain of salt the blanket estimates about one machine being able to bring in $100,000 a year profit. The same article that cited that estimate also cited the Outfit having 1,000 machines, by which they determined it could be taking in $100 million a year from video poker. But it seems they forgot the standard arrangement where the business owner where the machines are placed typically gets 50% of the profit. And it's going on the assumption that all of the machines are taking in what is really the maximum possible throughout the year.

While video poker machines can be very profitable, the estimated amounts that come in from sports betting seems to be considerably larger. You're going to have more people betting on sports than using video poker machines, and usually with more money involved.



I agree that Gambino was the top boss at his peak. Where I disagree with many is that fact automatically meant his family was the top family.



If by "family," you only go by what the feds still consider viable, it would probably be the DeCavalcante family in New Jersey. In other words, there isn't enough left of the families outside of New York, Chicago, New England, New Jersey, and Philadelphia to where they could even be considered. But if one is of the opinion there is a family as long as there is still one or two guys left, that could be any number of places - New Orleans, maybe Milwaukee, Denver, etc.



You're conclusion is correct about the changing set up of family administrations in New York. The Genovese and Bonanno families haven't even bothered to install a new official (i.e. permanent) boss. The official bosses of the Gambino, Lucchese, and Colombo families will all die in prison. The Gambinos came the closest to the traditional set up when they had an acting boss (D'Amico), an acting underboss (Cefalu) and a consigliere (Corozzo). But the other families, as well as the Gambinos more recently, are now using acting bosses or ruling panels of some sort. The latter is usually three or more captains of equal rank, which is different than having a boss at the top and an underoboss and consigliere underneath him.



By the early 2000's it can be said the Bonannos were easily the #3 family in New York, and therefore in the country, having bypassed the Luccheses and Colombos who were suffering from major hits by law enforcement and defections at the time. I don't think the Bonannos ever replaced the Gambinos for the #2 spot though. They benefited from not being a big priority for the feds in the 1990's, by which they were able to rebound. The FBI later admitted that was a mistake.

The estimate is 25,000 video poker machines. That seems like an incredible amount but who knows.

How has Internet gambling cut into the mob's bookmaking profits?

I know three establishments in Chicago you can place a bet. Two in Bridgeport, one in the Patch.

But anyone I know who bets on sports uses the Internet.

I'm referring to a Sun Times article a few years ago that cited 1,000 machines, each of which could take in as much as $100,000 a year in profit, from which the $100 million figure came about.

It's something we'll never know. But looking at Marcello's M&M Amusement operation, he reportedly had his machines distributed in about 40 locations. He, of course, was head of the Cicero/Melrose Park crew and might have even been acting boss at one point. In any event, since the Outfit currently has 4 crews, and if one were to assume the other crews had similar sized video poker rackets, you're looking at a couple hundred locations total. Then the question comes down to how many machines in each location? 1? 2? 3? 5? It probably varies. I could see possibly a high of around 1,000 machines. But 25,000 seems way too high.



Most of the mob's sports betting business is done over the internet now. Local wire rooms, whether it be in New York or Chicago or wherever, are becoming more and more rare. The mob now utilizes phone banks and internet sites based in offshore locations in places like Costa Rica, Panama, the Dominican Republic, etc. Bettors can call a toll free phone number or go to a certain internet site using a name and password to place their bets. The mob bookie can check the site or call in to see whether his players won or lost. The actual exchange of cash takes place here between the bookie and the player and the bookie usually pays a flat fee per player account to the offshore internet sites and phone banks.

Here's a good article on the modern bookmaking business....



GAMBLING A VERY BIG WINNER FOR THE MOB
Sunday, February 19, 2006
By TOM TRONCONE
Staff Writer

A week or so before the Super Bowl, "Artie" from Wayne called an 800 number his friend gave him when the football season started. He provided his user name and password.

The woman who answered the phone spoke with a thick Hispanic accent.

"Give me the Steelers 20 times," he said in the gambler's parlance for a $100 bet.

On the Thursday after the game, Artie "settled up" with the friend, collecting $90 -- his winnings minus a fee -- and bought a few rounds of drinks for his buddies.

Artie made money on Pittsburgh's victory. So did one of the Mafia families operating sports betting rings in New Jersey, authorities believe.

Win or lose, the mob -- to no one's surprise -- is one of the biggest winners when it comes to sports wagering in the Garden State.

"It's the bread and butter of organized crime," said New Jersey State Police Capt. Mark Doyle, who oversees mob investigations for the agency in North Jersey. "They use this money to finance everything else they do, from drug distribution to prostitution to payoffs to unions and elected officials. Bettors have no idea where the money goes."

Scores of people are arrested each year in New Jersey for taking part in million-dollar betting rings connected to the Mafia. Most offenders never see the inside of a prison.

But no sports betting operation has ever received international attention like the one police busted earlier this month.

Authorities say former Philadelphia Flyers star Rick Tocchet and New Jersey State Trooper James Harney ran a sports betting operation that took in more than $1.7 million in bets in a little more than a month leading up to the Super Bowl.

Janet Jones, wife of hockey great Wayne Gretzky, allegedly placed $500,000 in bets with the ring. The names of other famous athletes have popped up as possible bettors as well.

The ring, authorities said, was "affiliated" with the Bruno crime family, which is based in Philadelphia but controls gambling operations throughout South Jersey as well as in parts of Newark.

But how would a ring such as the one the ex-hockey player and the trooper supposedly ran be connected to organized crime?

The state police wouldn't divulge details of the alleged mob ties. A defense lawyer hired by one of those charged in the case insisted the ring had no ties to organized crime. To date, authorities have said only that some mobsters may have been bettors and that Harney associated with others.

According to mob and sports betting experts, the answer could lie in the unseen world of big-money gaming. Peel back the veneer of any large betting ring and a world of "hedging," "vigs," "tributes," "protection" and "wire rooms" emerges.

Mob families split profits

It's a world where tens of millions of dollars are pumped into the coffers of the five mob families that control sports betting in New Jersey: the Genovese crime family in Bergen, Passaic, Hudson, Morris and Somerset counties; the Lucchese family in Essex, Morris and Union counties; the DeCavalcante family in Union and Monmouth counties; the Bonanno family in Union, Monmouth, Middlesex and Essex counties; and the Bruno/Scarfo family in South Jersey and the Silver Lake section of Newark.

Here's how it works:

A bookmaker and several associates grow a stable of regular bettors. They can choose to open their own office -- known as a "wire room" -- and receive incoming bets via an 800 number or through a password-protected Web site.

Such an operation is extremely risky and involves a large, detectable organization, mob investigators say.

In late January, the last of 19 people charged with operating a Genovese sports betting ring from a bar in Garwood pleaded guilty to gambling charges in Monmouth County. They included the street boss of one of the six Genovese crews that operate in the state, Ludwig "Ninny" Bruschi.

The case was one of the rare instances in which gambling rooms operated locally: Bruschi's crew used a Genovese wire room in New York City.

"We see it less and less," said one veteran detective. "It just makes more sense financially these days to do it outside the country."

Most rings simply outsource the bookmaking.

"You go down to Costa Rica and you see blockhouses with satellites," Doyle said. "And inside they have banks and banks of computers."

In nearly every case, the wire rooms are run by organized-crime families. The services charge bookmakers $20 to $30 a week per bettor. At the end of the week, the leader of the ring either calls the service or visits a secure site to see which of his clients are winners, which owe him money, and how much he owes the mob for use of the service.

The bookmaker pays the fee -- $20,000 to $30,000 a week -- to a contact in New York or New Jersey, mob investigators say.

But there's more.

If a bookie is "overexposed" on a certain team -- say, 1,000 people have bet the Giants but only 100 have bet their opponent -- the bookie will try to find a colleague who is in an opposite position. The two bookies then split their bets.

The mob does the same thing. A Genovese wire room receiving heavy betting on the Giants will exchange bets with a mob family from the city of their opponent. They combine to "hedge" the bets and "middle" the lines, a process that takes advantage of the difference in spreads in the two cities based on fan bases, investigators say.

"If you have everyone betting the Giants one day, you reach over to another operation that is getting heavy betting on the Steelers and take 20 of their 40 bets," Doyle said.

A no-lose situation

Although a bookmaker may not always win, the mob never loses.

"In order for a bookmaking operation to be successful, they have to hedge off," said Robert Buccino, longtime state mob investigator who now is chief of detectives in Union County. "If it's New York versus San Fran, New York could be minus 3 here, but go out to Cali and it's minus 1."

It's a strategy that police often employ during their investigations, with one officer calling in the favorite and another betting the underdog.

"So we don't lose the state's money," Doyle explained.

Authorities haven't disclosed whether they believe Tocchet and Harney used the services of a wire room. They have accused Tocchet, a millionaire former star athlete, of financing the alleged ring -- a role the mob usually plays in gambling rackets. They have also said that Harney sometimes took bets on his cellphone while patrolling the New Jersey Turnpike.

The federal government estimates that Americans illegally bet up to $200 billion each year, while less than $3 billion is bet legally on sports each year in Las Vegas. And while no numbers are available for only New Jersey, the tri-state area is considered the most active illegal gambling area in the country.

"It's a big moneymaker," said Bergen County Prosecutor John Molinelli. "It's dangerous because it's an unregulated business, where the consequences of not paying can be violent."

How the mob's gambling interests intersect with the lives of everyday people is evident, he said, in a major sports betting bust made by his office and the state police on Feb. 9. Paying the Genovese family for use of a Costa Rican wire room, the operation took in about $1 million in bets each week on football, hockey, soccer and other sports, Molinelli said.

Charged with operating or participating in the ring are a group of more than 50 people who run the social gamut: They include the manager of the Satin Dolls club in Lodi, the owner of Double D's Adult Lounge in Morristown, the owner of a long-term parking lot at Newark Liberty International Airport, a South Hackensack computer wholesaler, a Little Falls deli owner and a well-known Elvis Presley impersonator.

"Anytime you can cut off an income stream to organized crime, that's something we want to do," Molinelli said.

Besides financing other illicit activities, illegal sports betting "feeds the army" of soldiers who do the mob's dirty work, Buccino said.

It has always "allowed them to make money to live," he said.

"Sports betting should be legal," Buccino said. "Look at what the lottery did to the numbers racket: It killed it. And that used to be such big money [for the mob]."

Interesting. One thing I noticed is that if you read Coen's book, which is probably the most crystaline window into the Outfit I've ever come across at least, all of their rackets are very archaic. There's a glean of sophistication during the Vegas days with Lombardo wheeling and dealing with the union money but beyond that it's all juice loans, bookmaking and extortion. C'est tout.

They come off for the most part as very stupid. One big idea? Let's extort the owner of Connie's Pizza. Why? It just occurred to them that he was a successful businessman. So they literally went up to him and said "You owe us $100K." (Or maybe two, I forget.) Ditto with the real estate guy down here, Caciatorre, and ditto with Michael Cagnoni, who they blew to pieces. The others they left dead mice on their windshield to scare them. Really guys? Dead mice with nooses on them? And cut a puppy's head off and left it on a windsheild.

That is of course all the 26 Street Crew.

However, if you look at the evidence that's come to light, and it's not a perfect indication, what did Sarno get busted for? Video poker and thieving.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Outfit has its hands in offshore gambling and things of a more sophisticated nature but am left to wonder as there hasn't been a single shred of evidence brought up suggesting that.

You got it right Johnny - my uncle was a bookie associate for 64 years (he was Irish). Sports betting was his life blood, and he had a ton of cash at all times. When he passed, there were envelopes passed out to his heirs, and it was all greenbacks and some jewelry.

The older guys still like to place their bets with a bookie, usually in a bar or by phone. The younger generation uses the internet.

If my uncle were still alive, he would be suffering because there was no way he would ever have been able to learn to use a PC.

Tony:

It's odd, isn't it? The Internet has cut out many mob rackets: Sports gambling, prostitution, smut and even juice loans--now called "pay day loans," legal, and a huge growth industry on line.

Someone once tried to argue with me that the Outfit had ventured into these ventures on-line but if you read letters from people like Frank Calabrese they are barely literate.

And I would expect that John DiFronzo himself is like your uncle and wouldn't know what to do with a computer if you threw one at him.

Another correct assertion Johnny, which is why some of the smart wise guys are getting young comp sci geeks to set up their internet gambling and escort services. The mob is still there, but has been greatly supplanted by corporate money too. I cannot count the number of different franchises that off to cash paychecks and make loans. They are in all the strip malls here in the crappy areas of town.

Perna and Scarfo Jr from the Lucchese used some hot shot computer kid to set up their internet gambling sites, which were quite sophisticated.

The Gambino's had the medicare and health insurance fraud going through a 25 year insurance guy in Missouri that had no mob connections, but was greedy.

The other organized groups have filled the gaps. I know the Middle Europeans (Albanians and Serbians) are big in the health care fraud stuff.

For the families outside of New York, it's mostly down to the standard street rackets of gambling, loansharking, extortion, drug trafficking, and stolen goods. The New York families have these things, as well as continuing involvement in labor union racketeering and newer scams like stock fraud.

As has been said, bookmaking and video poker are the Outfit's mainstays. It really doesn't take a whole lot of sophistication to use offshore wire rooms and internet sites. Obviously with gambling comes loansharking. And there is still the "street tax" the Outfit imposes on things ranging from independent bookies to porn shops. For some reason, the Outfit has always had a lot of involvement in burglary rings. So that's nothing new.

Comparatively speaking, the 26th St/South Side crew has always been more "blue collar." They were the ones who took over the stolen auto racket in Chicago for a time decades ago. However the top guys in the crew, the Carusos, were big into the Laborers Union before being ousted a decade ago. But it seems the more sophisticated operations are on the north side. Guys like DiFronzo, Andriacchi, and others who have a lot of legit interests in trucking, demolition, auto dealerships, restaurants, and real estate.

I'd agree with you that many things have become rather passe. The state lottery really cut into the numbers racket. Prostitution became passe a long time ago. Pornography became more mainstream and the mob lost it's niche there; first with video tapes saturating the market and then the internet. Union reform, industry regulation, etc. And the mob has been marginalized in the drug trade for the last 25 years or so. But one exception is sports betting. The internet has only expanded the mob's involvement in that, as well as reduced much of the risk. If there's one area where the mob has retained its predominance, it's illegal sports betting.

The Missouri connection actually involved the Gambinos multi- million internet and phone billing scams. In the late 1990's the Gambinos also reportedly took in millions from pre-paid phone card scams. It was the Genovese family that ran health care scams in New Jersey back in the mid 1990's, as well as in the early part of the next decade in Brooklyn with the Russians. The Luccheses were involved in mortgage fraud as well as the old gas tax scam with the Russians in the early 2000's. The Genovese were busted for running a high-tech scam involving cloned credit cards in 2003. The Bonannos used computer hackers to obtain account numbers issued by Mexican banks by which the siphoned off millions of dollars. The Gambinos ran a multimillion dollar mortgage scam of their own in 2006. And all five New York families have ran several scams involving stocks and securities fraud that have come into the hundreds of millions in the last decade alone.



The Russians and other Eastern European OC groups - like the Armenians as we saw recently - are big into various forms of fraud, including health care fraud. Along with Bulgarians, Armenians, and Russians, Albanians were among those busted for running a multimillion dollar identity theft and credit card fraud ring in Vegas back in 2008. But Albanians are more well known for drug trafficking, ATM robberies, extortion, etc.

So are you saying that this description of Salvie Testa is not accurate?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvatore_Testa

He was a ruggedly handsome 210-pound man who stood 6 feet tall with hazel eyes and real long lashes and dimpled cheeks. He wore his wavy hair out over his ears in typical 1970s fashion and was known to wear track suits and double breasted suits, he enjoyed wearing a 10-gallon cowboy hat and leather cowboy boots. He reportedly had dark emotionless eyes and gave off the appearance of a great white shark with a scowl that made press photographers back away from him when looking to get his picture athletic build from playing racquet ball and tennis at an upscale Philadelphia country club that he belonged to. Some crime writers have compared Testa to Christopher Walken's character 'Frank White' in King of New York.

Whoever wrote that dreams about Salvie Testa blowing in his face.