John Gotti after been beaten up

This is a rare pic of Gotti after being physically assaulted, who ever thought of this happening to Gotti.

Heres the link to the pic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GottiPrison.jpg

i cant see the image.

Could you check and fix it please

I think this is the photo that he's referring to:





Apparently Gotti mouthed off to the wrong dude.

Not a very "bella figura", huh?

I don't know about that SC. Looks to me like he actually did use his head.

Barely looks like the same guy. Could just be the flash of the camera.
Looks so skinny and young.

It got worse. This (below) is generally accepted as his last public picture ... he died shortly afterwards (from cancer):

He looks 91! Not 61... Incredible.
I almost feel sorry for him.

yeah he looks way older..

Exact photo.

The guy did seem like he mouthed off to the wrong guy.
Won't be surprised if they raped him.

i saw a better quality pic of that photo somewhere...the beaten one

well share it then longneck ... I've been waiting for a week now

I saw his "last photo" awhile back. It's sad to see him like that at only 61 years old. I have sympathy for anyone who is sick. Poor guy.

I know somebody who was locked up with Gotti in Marion Prison from 1993 until his release in 1998. He said their cell block housed 20 inmates (10 upstairs and 10 downstairs) and they lived in one man cells. His discription of Gotti was that he was a pretty friendly guy. But that he never wanted people asking him questions about his organized crime past. He said one time he had no money on his books and Gotti bought him two bags of coffee off his canteen, which came once a week. They were on 23 hour a day lock down and the only time he saw Gotti is when he came out for his 1 hour of free time. They saw and talked to eachother through a square of thick plastic that was directly in the middle of their cell doors.

I did ask him once about the fight between the black inmate and Gotti. He told me that it was all over a tv. There was a tv that was placed on the cell blocks wall for inmates to watch during the day while they were in their cells. Gotti basically controlled the tv and housing area. There was a new trustee that the prison staff placed in their cell block. A trustee is a worker from general population that is trusted by prison staff. The new trustee was sweeping the cell block floor one day and Gotti asked him to change the channell on the tv. But the trustee didn't do it. So Gotti called him a fuckin ni**er and said if he ever came in contact with him he would kick his ass. Two weeks later Gotti went out for his free time and the trustee was just leaving the housing area after cleaning and Gotti called him a ni**er again. After that they both got into eachothers face. My friend could not see everything 'cause he lived on the second floor and Gotti lived on the first. But said he saw Gotti the next day and he looked pretty banged up. Gotti also had cancer and was really sick during that time. If he was a lot younger and more fit I'm sure the black guy would've been beaten up. The prison staff moved the trustee to another prison for his safety just one month later. I heard that Gotti paid the Aryan Brotherhood to murder the inmate, but the hit never happened.

Really? If that's the case, the bastard deserved to get his ass kicked. I never understood how the public could love a scumbag like John Gotti

Yeah! I didn't believe this guy at first but he started sounding really convinsing later. He did show me his old prison ID card from Marion Prison and some other proof. He's also an old outlaw biker kind of guy.....

Si! No bello figuri.....

Wasn't Gotti married to a Jew?

I think I read that she's of a Jewish background, DC. But she doesn't have Jewish blood.

So that makes his daughter Victoria half jewish, right?

I don't have access to the relevant books now but my understanding is that Victoria Gotti (nee DiGregorio) is half Jewish and half Italian. So her daughter Vikki is mostly Italian.

Yeah, that "last" picture of Gotti, he does look pretty bad; more like his ugly brother Pete then any of his slightly better looking brothers. Almost unrecognizable as himself. Didn't he have part of his jaw removed? That explains a little, i guess, but he looked so haggard.
I guess that's what jail does to people. In the first one, the photo where he's bleeding, he's still recognizable, though a little thinner and greyer. You can see the rage and humiliation in his eyes. With the story behind it, it was that which made me first feel a little sympathetic for the guy; i mean he's doing his time, he doesn't need to cop that sorta shit.

"Oz" is supposed to be fiction, an exaggeration of prison life, but here you had a famous mobster being assaulted by a black gangster, and vengeance sought via the Aryan Brotherhood, who some say set the whole thing up in order to levy a previously refused "protection" tax on Gotti!

Anyhoo, what always got me was the his son, Jr, was half Jewish as well.
No one seemed to care about that. Another funy thing, though unrelated (sorry), was Nino Gaggi telling Roy DeMeo, once he had been finally "made", that although he was now a Soldier, he could never progress, for "only Sicilians can become Capo's in this Family"
John Gotti Sr. is, of course, Napolitan.

Thanks for sharing that blurb on nino gaggi and roy demeo i never kenw gaggi said that before...

Let it go PB, please don't get involved in my beefs. What I wrote on the other thread was "There's Russian that have a Jewish background, but most of them (Russians) don't have Jewish blood." Russians got it??

Junior Gotti and Victoria are 75% Italiano.

It happens when an Italian big mouth cowboy thinks he's better then everyone. That black guy must had split his shit and he's still smiling just to save face. I really can't believe how an Italian can think he or she is "Mr. Whitey" himself. The Irish are more Anglo Saxon then they'll ever be. Gotti most had looked like a fool to not only himself, but others for trying to sneak that gun in to get revenge because an inmate handed his ass to him on a platter. I wonder how he felt when he got his ass kicked and he couldn't do anything about it, And for him to say he's a street guy he should know a ass kick'en is an ass kick'en get over tough guy.



P.S That's why his hair fell out, it wasn't the cancer....

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let me tell you that prison is a whole different world than the street..yeah gotti was a stupid flashy boss and could have anyone done in on the street, but in prison you're not with a crew..as far as his getting his ass kicked, thats not a big deal...ANYONE who has ever fought a good amount of fights and said they have never lost is a straight up liar..sorry it dont happen like that in the street or prison world..there is always someone out there who thrives on someone who thinks their hard.. as far as the gotti thing goes, no one knows because no one was there to witness it..there are alot of things that could come into to play like who got the first hit ect..i know if i get the first i'm going to do some damage no matter who you are..some people with reps like gotti think that who they are is going to scare the person off and it dont work like that on the inside..
not trying to be a wiseguy but it is 2 different worlds as far as the street and prison goes..also marion is a max joint with lots of cold blooded people there..only my 2 cents

Very interesting and thanks for posting this info. This version sounds more real than the others.

Gotti was like 55 years old at the time, and the black dude was like 28, so that might have influenced the outcome just a little!
Regardless, for an egomaniacal mob boss like Gotti, getting beaten up like that had to hurt his pride more than his head. And what a reality check for John: he still had the "boss" mentality but he didn't have the "boss" backing like he did when he was out on the streets. Having a small army around you does wonders for a guy's sense of confidence and toughness!!

He did have the boss backing in prison. Nobody fucked with him before that incident. The problem was Gotti was too cocky and believed he was still untouchable. The ass kicking taught him that your rep will get you respect in prison, but it won't always protect you. Especially when you talk a lot of shit.

Yeah, you are probably right in regards to his rep, but I'm not sure how much actual backing Gotti had in the joint. Sure, he had his rep and his notoriety, but he didn't have any actual mob comrades or organized crime associates in the joint with him at that time. So, it wasn't like when he was out on the streets and he had bodyguards and shooters shadowing him ready to protect him in the event of any kind of attack. In Marion, Gotti was a high-profile inmate basically alone.
And the type of power that Gotti had was the type of power that can be easily revoked under certain circumstances. Gotti's power on the outside was due to his position as boss of a major organized crime family that included many killers and violent men who answered to and performed work for John Gotti. But you take a guy like that and stick him on a desert island with a group of savages, that type of power isn't going to be worth much.
In a case like that, and in a place like Marion federal prison, being physically tough and strong probably holds more weight.
Gotti was simply a middle-aged, out of shape guy surrounded by lowlifes, many of whom were probably tougher and more physical than Gotti ever was.

The John Gotti book called Mob Star (one of the best mob books ever written) talks about this. More less the black dude snuck Gotti and got several punches in. Not really a fight. A big bounty was put on the black guys head (over a million dollars) that he had to be moved out of the prison to another location. After he go released from jail he went into hiding

I cant understand it. Theres a lot of hate for john on this thread its sounds personal

Like others mentioned before, prison is just an entire different world. Carmine Persico got punked in jail a few years back (Capeci wrote about it) where a black inmate threw water on him in front of other made guys who were with carmine cause the black guy was sitting in carmine's usual spot and didnt want to move.

Actually , i heard that he had went on to kill a cop upon being released.

I'm just saying regardless or the backing you have in prison, a good rep in prison will take you far. Despite popular perception, most prisoners DO have respect for each other if they prove worthy. However, that's only if you show no signs of weakness and don't mess around with other inmates. The second you start messing with with someone else, they are going to come at you because they have something to prove and they don't want to be seen as a punk. Then you are in a world of trouble. Especially an old guy like Gotti. Despite having no backing, his rep was as big as they come. So prisoners showed respect (I'm sure his ability to put out bounties also helped). Gotti started causing trouble and that respect meant nothing anymore. That black prisoner had to fight back. Gotti got what was coming to him.

It wasnt a sneak attack gotti got his ass handed to him

I couldn't agree more with this entire post, especially the last three sentences. In prison the "tough guys" actually have to be tough guys.

I heard different and even if that was the case. A dude in his 20's can't really brag about beating someone in a fight that's about 30 years older then him. If they were both in their 20's I would drop a big bet on Gotti winning

He needed his ass kicked I'm sure he ruined a lot of good rackets for the Gambino's that were exposed due to to his management style.

gotti was a tough guy no doubt but you make him out to be mike tyson or something lol

Gotti deserved the a** kicking and then some for having his neighbor John Favara killed. All the other stuff, the gambling, the loansharking, etc., is easier to overlook, but killing an innocent civilian like that because your kid was reckless on a motorbike -- that was pure evil! Too bad Gotti didn't live another 20 years in the squalid conditions of Marion.

Couldn't agree more as far as i know the guy hasn't been identified but people are willing to bet on his defeat to the young JG.

An article on walter johnsons later arrest for the cop killing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26112-2004Jul29.html

The guy was a violent felon from Philadelphia. He sounded like a bit of a nutcase, so it's not surprising that he wasn't impressed by John Gotti's reputation. The comments on the article below are quite comical; some people take things pretty seriously.

http://anthonyj33.hubpages.com/hub/The-Day-John-Gotti-Got-Beat

anybody who would kill a cop has to be somewhat of a nutcase at a minimum IMO

good Point also there has never been any evidence to suggest gotti personally killed anybody. sure he ordered many murders but i dont think he has ever carried out a killing by himself

I don't think Gotti was weak physically or in fights, I don't see where even guys who turned on him said anything like that. I believe inmate Johnson went nuts and attacked him, based on talking to corrections officer I know (my brother, and other family members) Gotti had been in prison before, I think in 1977, wouldn't a coward reputation would have followed him onto streets ?

Yeah this. Gotti was like 5'9 ok he was broad but he's not some invincible tough guy, probably considered tough more on his reputation and the fact he had the power to have you killed. I guess this guy didn't give a fuck who John Gotti was, there's always someone tougher than you who can give you a beating.

Exactly. Even Paul Castellano was feared because he had the power to have you killed since he had the demeo crew and the westies at his disposal

Good point think of how feared Nicky Scarfo was considering the amount of murders he ordered and he was more or less a tiny skinny guy.

LOL I remember seeing a profile on a New Jersey banned casino list of Joey Merlino, listed him at 105 pounds and about 5'3, now how do you think he would go in a fist fight haha.

Don't always matter how small you are. It matters how good of a fighter you are. Yea I know guys like Scarfo, Merlino and Gotti were not big linebacker types but I'll take them guys against an average street thug in a fair fight anyday. I also believe Scarfo had a very short try at boxing so he knows how to throw. Hey look at MMA, I see guys who are like 110 pounds and I bet they could win in a fight against the average 200 street thug. Don't matter how big you are. It matters how good of a fighter you are.

Its true but did Merlino have a reputation for being a fighter or anything? I know Gotti did when he was a kid.

in prison doesn't matter your reputation for being a fighter but more your reputation to have you killed inside or outside prison
people like gotti have good possibility to have you killed outside prison

Agreed. There is always going to be someone tougher than you, no matter how tough a guy you are. I'm not sure height has anything to do with it; 5'9" is average height, so Gotti wasn't a midget. Tyson is like 5'10" at best, and he was knocking over guys 6'3", 6'4". A lot of good fighters were not tall but tough and strong.
But yeah, a lot of Gotti's tough guy reputation stemmed from his violent past and his ability and wherewithal to have a guy clipped. But from all the reading I've done, I do know that John Gotti was a tough guy who didn't mind getting violent, unlike so-called tough guys like Paul Castellano or Carlo Gambino, two guys who probably couldn't break an egg in a fight, but nonetheless could have you killed.

Yeah, Gotti had been in prison in the late 60s as well. He always seemed to be the kind of guy who didn't mind getting physical if needed. In '84 he got into that fracas with the refrigerator mechanic who was upset that Gotti's friend, Frank Colletta, had double-parked and was blocking the street.
John Gotti and his brother Gene looked like typical throwback bruiser types!

Well to be honest Scarfo was probably more feared because he actually killed people personally.

gotti killed sure personally too

he ordered man murders no doubt but there hasnt been evidence gotti ever pulled the trigger

Supposedly he was part of the McBratney killing but he didn't pull the trigger. Other than that there's no proof he took part in a murder other than that there's only rumours of what happened to DeSimeone and Favara.

only being an effective member of organized crime it means it's very possible he killed personally although there is not any evidence in the trials and outside people knows it

You're right but you'd think if he had Sammy would've knew about it and if he did you'd think he would've mentioned it.

Massino did name him as the Vito Borelli triggerman IIRC. An then there's whatever happened to that codefendant of Dellacroce who disappeared in Florida.

i doubt gravano knew so much of the gotti past life

You gotta remember John Gotti was the boss of bosses. He was the boss of everyone when he was in power. I mean everyone! Think about it and if you were in his shoes. The boss of the Gambino crime family. I mean think about it for just a second. How would you feel if someone didn't listen to you even if you were in prison? What if you just let him do what he wanted and it got back to people in prison that some guy got away with not listening to John Gotti? Imagine if you were in Gottis shoes? Talk travels fast and rumors move fast in prison. Of course he was gonna have a big ego and if I was him I would have done the same thing. The guy no matter if you liked it or not, demanded respect. Thats one of the main reasons they made him boss to begin with. Cause he didn't take shit from anyone! He stood up for himself. If some dumb fuck scumbag floor sweeper wants to not listen to John Gotti, then I'm proud to know that John Gotti stood up for himself. He was old school and old school Italians don't like black people. To them blacks are the scum of the earth. Thats just how it is and always will be.

As far as I am concerned ,that black floor sweeper cleaner can go fuck himself.

John Gotti was never "Boss of Bosses." He held zero influence over Chin and the Genovese family while he was boss of the Gambinos and on the street (1985-1990).

The Chin would sooner eat horse shit than take orders from Gotti. Gigante hated the bastard. Personally I'm not a Gotti fan. Dude was an asshole and a scumbag. Some Mobsters are more likeable than others. Gotti to me wasn't one of them.

I think you've read to much into the media version of JG as others have said he wasn't boss of bosses it can actually be argued Gigante was the more powerful boss.

Yeah, but Gotti's beatdown at the hands of that black floor sweeper soon traveled throughout the prison. That couldn't have been good for Gotti's ego or status! A boss of a major crime family getting physically assaulted by some common thug -- not very good PR!

TO each their own.

He was the boss of bosses to the public eye. You can't deny that.

To only SOME of the public. And they were wrong.

Chin was more powerful than anyone in his time.

Yeah that's what i was meaning the media use this title to make it seem more dramatic at one point they said Galante was BOB even though he wasn't even fully recognized as boss of the Bonannos .

I'd take what massino says with a grain of salt. Also i think massino meant taht gotti set up the murder and didnt actually kill him himself. The co-defendent in Florida was Tony Plate who even at age 66 was regarded as a psychopath. I've heard that gotti ordered wilie boy and angelo to take care of plate

Ya but he wasnt feared by the media or by the other families to be honest. Also Gotti was never the boss of bosses. In fact Big paul was way more powerful in his reign than gotti was in his

Yes, it's precisely because Gotti maintained such an idiotically high public profile--because his "public" regarded him as the face of the Mafia--that he could never be acknowledged by other bosses as capo di tutti capi. Gambino earned respect as the top guy by keeping a low profile and by staying out of prison. Gotti served two felony sentences on his way up. Some other bosses did, too. But Gotti also stood trial (briefly) for beating up that Polish truckdriver. "I FORGOTTI" read the headline in the Daily News. The public ate it up. Gotti ate it up. Other Dons must have wondered what kind of idiot would get involved in a fistfight with some nobody when he had all that muscle around. The public loved the "Teflon Don" who beat two more felony raps--but he was denied bail both times, as well as the third and last rap, on which he was convicted. He spent an awful lot of time in jail as Don.

In the past I mentioned that my father was the court clerk for the Commission case. John Gotti also stood trial before my father's judge for one of his cases, in the Southern District of NY. My father's judge denied Gotti's bail and denied bail for every other mafioso to come through his courtroom. He had a real hard on for mafioso and never granted bail. Ever.

Gotti definitely had a charm about him; but for me, I just always had a hard time getting past the whole Favara incident.

As a italian i have no respect for mobsters but the subject of the mafia does interest me. However gotti just seemed to be an idiot to me. Lets face it with dellacroce gotti would have remained an errand boy

I don't respect anybody fully but my own family. Period.

Mafia doesn't interest me at all. I am not phased one way or the other. The only reason I posted in this thread is b/c he stood trial in my father's courtroom and figured I'd contribute.

dude i wasnt trying to insult you i was agreeing with you lol. I have agreed with pretty much all of your points you have made in the thread. i think you misunderstood me

^^^ You're right. Sorry if it seemed I was coming down on you.

PS...don't call me dude.

She's a dudess.

No problem just try not to jump to conclusions especially with someone who thinks you make a lot of great points lol

Fair enough.

Anyway getting back to topic i agree with you the favara murder was uncalled for. I feel for the guy for losing his son but it was an accident even though victoria gotti claimed it was because she is a dumbass lol.

That refrigerator mechanic, Romuel Piecyk, had a record himself, several arrests for assault among them. Maybe they had common friends who got him to not testify. I wonder if he was even really a refrigerator mechanic. He certainly was not innocent in the fight, he had attacked a smaller man who was Gotti's friend over a parking spot.

Your taking this a little personally aint ya?
Was gotti your uncle or something.
Wonder what was said to him after he was beaten.....

I've read different accounts about this incident. Some stories say Colleta picked the fight by rushing up to Piecyk, who was seated in his van, and smacking him through the open window and stealing $325 from Piecyk's shirt pocket. Other stories say Gotti came out of the bar and either "starched" Piecyk or simply threatened him to "get lost"! I think this is one of those stories that tends to grow more fascinating over the years, what with all the revisionists around.

Maybe if it had been a fellow Italo-American who punched Gotti out it would be more tolerable!

i agree as with most gotti stories it is fantasy mostly. The media made it seem like gotti beat the guy up by himself but in reality he only smacked teh guy when 3 or 4 of guys in his crew assisted

So many legendary tales about Mr. Gotti. In Victoria Gotti's book about her dad, she claims her dad single-handedly beat the crap out of numerous neighborhood thugs who jumped her brother (John A. Gotti) and beat him up pretty bad. But of course, Victoria makes her dad out to be some noble Robin Hood-like rogue who always did the right thing. She tried very hard to put such a positive spin on her dad's life of crime.

Victoria is a bigtime storyteller. she is also the definition of "babe in the woods routine" She also claims that her father didnt have Favara killed and even describes favara as some kind of remorseless killer who murdered her brother

Every account I have ever seen, including original statement by Piecyk, say it was Gotti alone, and it was more than smacks. I have never seen any mention of associates helping, were is that info from ?

Her book was terrible. She kept making it sound like he was a God. Book needed a stronger editor if it was to be successful, obviously one was not used.

Haha...Yeah, true! She even said how her dad told her (in the event she ever wrote a book about him) to never make him out to be a saint or a choir boy, because, according to John, he wasn't!
But she did her best to put such a noble, positive spin on Gotti's life and lifestyle. She supposedly loved the man but loathed the lifestyle; well, that lifestyle was a major part of the man!

I saw a video of Piecyk with his arm in a sling showing up to court shortly after his altercation with Gotti. Whether that was real or just for show to elicit sympathy who knows. But all the accounts I read of the incident say it was only Gotti and Frank Colletta involved with Piecyk, that Piecyk started fighting with Colletta, and then Gotti erupted out of the bar and joined in the fracas. But that was in '84, when John wasn't a boss yet, so he could still get his hands a little dirty!

^^^thats what capeci states happened as well if i remember correctly

Exactly some make it seem like gotti beat the guy up on his own but it was 2 on 1

Yeah, Gotti should have put the gloves on with Piecyk and fought it out mano y mano.
At Marion, Gotti didn't have his bodyguards to run interference!

Dont get me wrong Gotti could fight but i think some of the younge rgeneration make him out to be a total badass. I mean in reality gotti never really personally killed anybody. Now he is is still a murderer but he ordered murders instead of doing them himself

In reality you have no clue if John Gotti ever pulled the trigger or not, how do you know if JG ever pulled the trigger? The answer is you don't...........soliai

Black calm down lol. I never said i knew for sure i've just basing it what i've read on him. Maybe he did but Gotti was more teh type who ordered death. gotti was a capo for most of bhis time as a made man and even before he was a made guy he was acting capo for Fatico so he didnt really have to get his hands dirty. I mean the only incident where he was present at was Mcbratney's murder and Ralph Galione was the triggerman

Henry Hill said that Gotti killed Tommy Desimone in order to get made.

Gotti was already made before tommy was killed. Tommy died in january 1979 while gotti was made in 1977 soon after he was released taht summer

Plus Henry's later statements were not exactly seen as reliable

Exactly. I'll buy that gotti was present at desimone's murder. However i would bet that wille boy,angelo,gene,carneglia brothers, and tommy agro did the dirty work

It's strange how John Gotti seemed to be mob royalty from the very beginning. He was acting capo before he was even made. How often does that happen? Then, when it came to actually making his bones, he didn't have to actually kill anyone. Then, if all the stories are correct, Gotti ordered others to do his dirty work when it came time to eliminate Paul Castellano. I mean, I'm not glorifying all that dirty stuff, but if Gotti were such a tough guy, and if he himself wanted to be boss, why didn't Gotti go out and settle things with Castellano instead of lordly ordering others to do it for him?

It amazes me how Gotti seemed to have such a princely ascension to the top of the mob. There's something very "weanieish" about simply ordering others to do your own dirty work.

Well it can be harder to prove but then you run the risk of them f'n it up or ratting you out if they get caught I mean modern day murder charges for mobsters today they almost automatically flip I wish ivyleague posting on here so he could provide some statistics

JA, I´m not attacking you in any way, bacause I have seen that statement elswhere. But I would like to know where it stems from. Being not made and at the same time in charge of a crew that contains made guys, sounds unlikely to me. Is that even possible?
We may suspect Gotti to have been an acting capo as early as 1977, when the Fatico brothers were sent away, but prior to that, there is no evedence of John Gotti running Fatico´s crew.

You're right it sounds crazy but its true. In 1972 Fatico went to jail and since john was a protege of both Fatico and Neil they made gotti his proxy/acting capo. In fact gotti reported to neil and when neil went to jail in 73 he reported to carlo for a short time

Gaggi was mistaken, I beleive when DeMeo was made thats how the Gambino's did things, however when Big Pauly as whaked noone contested Gotti. I think up until Gotti thats how the did things, I think the Gambino's are going back to the old way though with there new boss Quiet Dom Cefalu..I think Quiet Dom is going to put the Gambino's bac on the map ( MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION THAT HAS NOT BEEN STATED ANYWHERE)

Sounds like Gotti got the last laugh yeah he might have been snuck in the faceee..... yea ok who cares...Gotti's name alone made a act of congress happened and got that guy moved out of Marion due to his life being at stake.....Thats saying alot... Guarentee if it was the other way around and Gotti snuck the afrcan american gentleman noone wuld have moved Gotti becase his life was at stake.....

Catch My Drift?

He wasnt moved out of the prison he got paroled and then he got sent back for killing a cop on his way to killing the person who snitched on him in the first place.

Is Cefalus nickname Quiet Dom too or are you mixing his name up witj Quiet Dom Cirillo the Genovese capo?

Not trying to knock what your saying but I dont think Gotti was the Capo Di Tutti Capi....I dont think there was one at the time but if there was it as deff Chin Gigante

There's not been a Capo Di Tutti Capi since Salvatore Maranzano the most powerful boss of the timee was Gigante.

No trying to discredit anyone but Henry Hill is a compulsive liar....Hes such a liar he told Howard Stern that he knew Sonny Black that he was in the Lucchese Family when Sonny Black was in the bonanno's i dont think Henry Hill had much recollection of anyting he was always freakin olbitered on liquer

He was obvisiouly smarter than his counterparts if he could get everyone to respect him like that and listen to his every commnan and take his shit without whcking him....He obvisiouly used his brain....WORK SMARTER NOT HARDER....thats the phrase ive always heard haha

Just aggreeing it is true....I dont have the facts sitting rigt here infront of me... But i know ive read in WAYYYYY more than 1 place that Gotti was incharge of a crew before being made.

Like I have stated before, we didnt know Gotti was involved in the Borelli murder until Massino said so. Given that Gotti came of age during the time in the mob that guys actually had to commit murder to get straightened out, if I was a betting man I would bet on him having committed a murder. Given his ridiculous temper, and propensity for violence. Currently, there isnt and probably never will be any new informant from that era who would be able to shed light on this with direct knowledge of Gotti pulling the trigger.

If you do a search on the forum, I actually pointed out passages from Capeci where this is discussed about Gotti.

I think what massino meant was that gotti arranged/ordered the murder. Now thats still makes him a murderer just not personally

As much of a renegade as Gotti was, it's amazing that he wasn't whacked out by other capos or bosses. I know that Casso/Chin supposedly tried, but that was the only known occurrence. I'm sure there were other Gambino members that were none too happy with the way Gotti grabbed power.

I've always maintained that if Gotti had somehow avoided prison he wouldn't have survived the early '90s. If the Chin didn't get him, one of the old guard Gambinos---namely Danny Marino---would have bided his time and eventually put him down.

And the other families would have laughed and laughed and laughed .

Did people hate Gotti cause they were jealous that he was handsome, an exceptional dresser, and got tons of attention by the media?

More that he was a douche bag who stole money from the community.

Really?

Explain.

The Mafia prey on the weak. Also why would normal, non-fanboy people like a murderer, a drug dealer etc?

I think he is a Gotti fanboy.

lol

Like I have said before, Gotti Sr was the shooter in that murder according to Massino. Massino has no reason to lie about this.Just setting the record straight for everybody.

"John Gotti Senior carried out the shooting of Vito Borelli, the old boyfriend of Paul Castellano's daughter. Borelli had joked about Castellano looking like chicken grower Frank Perdue. "

http://www.fivefamiliesnyc.com/2011/04/tidbits-from-joseph-massinos-testimony.html

"Massino yesterday also named John Gotti as the triggerman in the 1975 hit of Vito Borelli, who'd made a crack about mob boss Paul Castellano's resemblance to renowned chicken man Frank Perdue. "

http://www.fivefamiliesnyc.com/2011/04/nomerta-mafia-boss-squealer.html

Check your private message. Obcourse Gotti was a piece of crap. I agree 100%.

Some more info on Gotti.

Gotti was reporting directly to Carlo by 1972, because Neil was in prison and Fatico was in failing health. Even though Gotti was only an associate reporting to the Boss, Carlo looked fondly upon Gotti because of the blessing provided by Neil.

http://www.amazon.com/Gotti-Rise-Fall-Jerry-Capeci/dp/0451406818

During this time period, there were many other future LCN members (Massino) who were given their first contracts. In 1957, The Chin ordered by Vito Genovese botched the hit on Frank Costello.

Actually this is different, we know it was Gotti due to court testimony from Massino who has no reason to lie in this particular case. This hasnt been disputed by the FBI or even questioned. This cant be compared to the Tommy D murder.

I looked at some old microfilm of stories in days after Gotti and Piecyk story came out. Concencus is that Piecyk attacked Colleta, and Gotti came out, and beat up Piecyk. Descriptions of Colletta paint him as small and recovering from heart attack. Piecyk went to police, and said he was attacked and robbed.
After hearing from police who he was having arrested, he had second thoughts. Piecyk also seems to have been bit of a thug and bully in life, with his own criminal record, mostly for fighting.

It seems like the police mishandled this, they should have waited till Piecyk talked to district attorneys office, instaed of telling him who Gotti was as soon as they arrested Gotti. It sounds as if they were so happy to have made a Mafia arrest, they were bragging gout loud who they arrested, Piecyk heard, got cold feet.

I'd get cold feet as well. But I guess Johnny Boy was pretty handy with his fists. I think John was more of a blue collar don, at least in the beginning. I could never picture a Carlo Gambino or a Paul Castellano getting in a fistfight over a parking spot. Those two guys would probably get beaten up by most average guys on the street. But I probably would be scared of Gotti, even if I didn't know who he was. He seemed to carry a certain menacing quality about him.

Yeah Gotti was a tough man. A mans man. He definately could have made a career being an enforcer.

Well he was a enforcer/collector for Fatico's loansharking operations.

Yes and he would have more than likely been a free man the day he died if he would have stayed on board as an enforcer.

Thats hard to say many times associates/enforcers are more prone to jail sentences. Gotti had a huge rap sheet plus he was an idiot/had a big mouth so he would have probably been in and out of jail

Good point.

"the mafia prey on the weak" statements make me sick. You sit here and spend time making moral high ground statements. Why do you have thousands of comments on the subjects and the people? You make it sound like there mugging old ladies, taking Holloween candy from kids. It's a business, everyone who gets involved with them knows the deal. There are plebty of "normal people" who have made a living and provided for their families working with these guys. Prior to banks lending money to anyone and everyone within the last 10-15 years these guys provided a service. You'll pay dearly from use of that service but it is available. Even today if your short on a Thursday for payroll the next day see how many banks would help you out. Same as gambling, you want to play they give you the outlet, you play over your head that's your fault. Plain and simple they provide services. PREY ON THE WEAK, I can't tell you how aggravated those types of statements make me. So hypocritical, why are you here? You a preacher? Speaking of preying on the weak, being from Australia do you say the same to the farmers with the way they treat there sheep? Prey on the weak! That's such a disgusting statement.

Ill agree that gambling and loansharking aint that big of a deal and people know what there getting themselves in for but i think your jumping the gun a bit. To tottally dismiss the idea that they prey on the weak is practically like ignoring their entire history dating back to the black hand gangs.

Ok, of you want to compare the "black hand gangs" to the Mafia that's your choice. IN MY OPINION that's like comparing apples to bowling balls. That's why they were called the Black Hand not the Mafia. Granted many members joined the traditional Mafia, however again just my opinion The Black Hand had one goal to scare and extort people blind. The Mafia had a multi- tiered business objective. Granted they extort, however to blanket the entire organization as "preying on the weak" is not valid. And to make that statement here is what really baffled me?

I wasnt comparing the two, i was talking about there history dating back to the black hand gangs. The fact of the matter is that being in the mafia or being under its protection emboldens the criminals and thugs that are apart of it. There have been many cases where mob associates and even high ranking members have engaged in violent crimes or other criminal activity that has harmed civilians either intentionally or as a side consequence those criminals responsible did it in aid of the organisation even if it was on their own they are still a part of that group and under its protection. Heres some examples.
http://bitterqueen.typepad.com/friends_o...s-granello.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ga...ticle-1.1054532
http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-evil-that-men-do-the
http://bitterqueen.typepad.com/friends_of_ours/2011/11/gambino-capo-dealed-in-boy-on-boy-porn.html

Ok, now your argument is encompassing so many areas. You mentioned the Black Hand Preying on the week. The examples are great for an wide argument. However in ANY proffesion of society there are plenty of crazy/ disgusting things going on. Hear about the coach at Penn State? Priests? The DA for NYC getting call girls? Cherry picking articles isn't going to change my original argument which was: If you think Mobsters are scum of the earth then why are certain people here making these Moral High Ground statements? That's all my original statement was.

Completely valid statement.

Are mobsters great guys? No, they're not.

Should you seek them out for friendship let alone money? No, you shouldn't.

But do they advertise or try to drum up business like the corner grocery store? No, they don't.

I've never met a bookmaker or a shylock in my life---and I've been around them since I could crawl---approach anyone about lending money or taking a bet. It's always the other way around. So to say that they "prey" isn't accurate. If you're smart, you'll keep your distance. But if you jump in feet first, you have no one to blame but yourself.

I wasnt making any moral high ground statements.I was just expanding upon your initial statement and just pointing out the fact that the mafia is a criminal gang first and foremost that knowingly hires thugs, crooks and killers into its ranks so they are pretty much responsible as an organisation when one of those persons kills or assaults someone. I never said they were the scum of the earth either i was just pointing that they have and continue to prey upon the weak.The articles were about stuff that has actually happened so i dont really call it cherrypicking when I'm backing up my opinions with other sources of info.

I agree they need to hire some undesireables for the business. And to be candid it's their business on who they hire. My "Moral Highground" statement was referring to "the mafia preys on the weak" I just feel that's a BS statement. You could live in their area for your entire life and never meet a made guy. You would be surprised how hard many people go out of their way to get involved with those people.

And another funny observation is there are quite a few people here who spend a lot of time reading, studying, making statements about people they look down upon! I just find that interesting. Is there the same interest and self professed knowledge in other types of criminals? Or our there many "closet" Mobster fans here?

Their whole purpose is to commit crime so ill bet that most of them are undesirables.

Actually they dont even hire people, more like recruit local criminals that sort of gravitate around them.

The mafia is such a benevolent organization:

Sell/import drugs
steal cars
home invasions
contract murder
extortion (people, businesses)
inflate prices (mob tax)
loansharking
assault
intimidation
gambling
prostitution

I mean, what's not to love?

No ones denying that mobsters aren't exactly saints. But they are people too. And while what they do is unethical their are far worse sickos, lowlifes and organizations. It's like eastharlemital said, you could go your entire life without meeting one and you could be right next door. There's more grey area than you think

I hope you're kidding. Taking someone's life is considered sick by me. Hell stealing money from innocent hard working people is also sick. I think you have seen teh godfather too many times lol these guys only care about themselves

This is has nothing to with the godfather JC. It has more to do with the fact that despite negative traits of mobsters they are still people. In fact it's the opposite of a hollywood fic. The real life mob is violent and I don't condone what they do, but there's more to them than meets the eye. I am convinced of that

What do you want me to say taht they're nice people? Im sorry but they arent? Now there may be ones taht are more violent than others but they are ALL criminals that prey on innocent people. Look the mafia interests me HOWEVER i despise these people

JasonAnthony and Crusher, where did you read that anyone said they were freat guys? Nobody has said that! And to lay out BS "they steal from innocent people" is such a fantasy to make yourself sound intellegent. Niether of you have a clue what your talking about! Zero! Your hiding in a basement trying to jam your BS down people's throat! You make these guys seem like they rob old ladies, steal lunch money. If you actually did live in an area where these guys are you would know there is nowhere safer! You two need to know what your talking about before you go spouting of your opinion as facts. One day you may meet someone who believes your BS, think about that poor person listening to you two.

Look East since you new here i would just like to say welcome BUT there is no need to be disrespectful. Ok Jason and I dont act like know it alls because none of us are.

Also i dont live in a basement i live in a apartment in Yonkers which once had a lot of mafiosos around

Once having and having, disrespectful? Read your response to Schmo! Read my posts! I'm throwing out my own ideas and thoughts, you two double team like your on the Commision!

What the fuck are you talking about man. If you want to discuss mafia thats cool but lay off the fucking accusing bullshit

i wouldnt call him new hes been here for almost a year

fair enough but i dont know why he is so angry lol

The mob makes a living stealing from innocent people. Any time that they do something that causes the prices of goods and services to rise -- construction costs, labor costs, trucking costs, the price of garment clothing, etc -- those artificially raised prices affect us the consumers. So, your argument falls flat on its face. The mob doesn't just keep their business amongst themselves; much of the mob-related fall out impacts me, you, and everyone else in the areas in which they do business.
I mean, if the mob just did business with other mobsters, the organization would die out and there would be nothing left. They need civilians, they need business owners and construction contractors and gambling addicted morons in order to survive; they need dope fiends to consume their drugs; they need trucks to hijack, etc.
If the mob left innocent (weak) people alone, the mob would die out!

Another expert. For an argument to fall flat on its face I would be like you and preface my statement as a fact. However as I stated they were my opinions. But since your such an expert, let me ask you this. How many gamblers were forced to gamble? Do you know how racketeering in construction works? I mean really know? Norway you've read that was skewed by a newspaper. And back to the original argument, before this got way off track. In my opinion completely disagree with the fact that Made Guys are common gang banger thieves who "prey" on the week. Just to be clear, they do not seek out people in a predatory manor whatsoever. And another part of my original opinion was if your so anti- Mafia and look down upon that life why are you here? You'll sit here share stories like you have first hand knowledge, talk as if your involved then spout some Moral agenda? It makes zero sense.

Come on man ease up Jason is cool and is informative. I mean the fact is not all mobsters are lunatics but they are all criminals

I agree eastharlemital. Jasonanthony I would encourage you to listen to this man. First off if the words 116th street don't mean anything to you I'll clear that up now: the genoveses most prominent crew is located there and the east Bronx. He sees these guys on the street and knows a few of them. I'd take his testimony over a guy from California.

Secondly while I don't discard your opinion I would also encourage you to think outside the box on this whole "mob is evil" crusade. No one denies that wise guys aren't angels from above, but what we must remember is that while they may be criminals, it doesn't necessarily mean they are monsters. I will never support the mafia, but they are people too. Their are gentleman and psychopaths within every organization in the world. The mob is no different. There is grey area

I agree however they are all criminals which does make them not good people since they make money in any way they can which affects us

I agree. They don't necessarily care who gets hurt in their scams, but I've been told numerous times the mob does not seek out gamblers or people seeking loans. Rather it's the opposite. And you could call the businessman involved in racketeering just as crooked.

Amen Schmo! No guys I am not saying these guys are "great guys", "angels" or whatever. All I am saying is they don't prey on people at all. More often than not people come to them. Another point NOBODY ever mentions is what opportunities did most of the "old guard" have back then? It was a different world. For example many could have only been laborers or in a trade, ever try pouring concrete all day? Trust me it sucks! Take Benny Mangano and Matty Ianiello(RIP) both those guys were WWII vets who came back to "hustle or starve". You ask most of these guys if they had a choice they would have taken a different path. That's why you don't see many of these guys making there children. Gotti and a few others were an exception. We got way off the point, me included. However, there is nothing that will change MY OPINION that mobsters prey on the weak. That statement is so broad and uninformed it's sad.

I can tell yo many stories my grandfather told me that are more brutal. One mobster wanted a certain woman so he killed her husband just to have her and he was innocent. Another guy hand his hand chopped off because he refusd to pax street tax even though he wasnt involved in anything illegal

I agree there are quite a few sick sick members! No denying that! However to broadly state they prey on the weak and innocent! No way. What about the teachers who are seducing there students! Are all teachers bad? What about that nutty astronaut wearing a diaper on her way to kill her boyfriends(another astronaut) wife! Do we dump on astronauts across the board? We could go on and on. I won't deny their are a few sick puppies in the mob. There are twisted people in every profession. However we don't label them all. They are all individuals! Again in my opinion.

As I said their are horrendous people everywhere. The mobs activities make for more brutality and shady characters. But even so people have exaggerated their evilness and acts. No doubt theyve done bad things to people who happen to get in their way but that doesnt mean they are all like that.

Again i dont know why you get so defensive about this. true they arent all monsters HOWEVER they are all criminals and i dont respect criminals. I respect people who make an honest living and dont steal,cheat,murder

there's FAR worse criminals out there. most involved with them are not innocent

Wow, you are taking things personal. What's wrong with you? I never said I was an expert; however, one doesn't have to be an expert to have a lot of knowledge about a particular subject. The original statement that I responded to had to do with the mob preying on the weak. That's what the mob does, in general. You seem to think that a mobster has to walk up to someone and shoot or stab the person to be considered preying on the weak. Yes, I get it: most mobsters aren't wearing certain colors and trying to rep certain streets or sets like many street gang members do. But the mob is a parasitical organization at its core; parasites excel at preying on weak or compromised organisms; the mob is very good at preying on weak individuals. The threat of violence is a major enforcement tool that organized crime uses to get what it wants. Protection rackets? Honest citizens having to pay a protection fee so their businesses don't get fire bombed? Mobsters are predatory individuals. You seem so offended by that. What is your link to organized crime? Are you trying to get straightened out and at the same time quell your conscience about your intended career path?
You can disagree with me or anyone else, but I really don't get why you seem to take this topic so personal.
And, I find true crime fascinating; therefore, I like reading about it and researching it. Is that enough justification for you as to why I am on this site? It's fascinating to read and learn about a segment of society that lives by its own code of ethics and values, no matter how demented. I've read up on numerous serial killers as well. It's basically a form of entertainment. But I never lose sight of how sick and twisted these nut jobs are.

I still agree that the mob is a predatory organization. Me being from California doesn't change that. Besides, with an internet connection, I can be just as informed as a guy living on 116th St.

Does the term media bias not make you wonder when your becoming informed? Being here in the actual enviorment is quite different than an internet connection. And yes I do take things personal when you "knock my argument down" it wasnt an argument just an opionion based on personel experience, not an internet plug in. Im sure you would be offended if I tore down surfers, people of whom i have never meet! And it has zero to do with my "button", which is anither example that shows you believe everything you read. You honestly believe these guys talkvlike that? Do they also use the code word "whach a guy"? My opinions have zero to do with an article I read, some BS story I heard or my "button" it has to do with someone who has NO clue about a group of people and states his opinion as a fact.

I agree.

There is a media bias in all stories. It's obvious in some cases they can go further and get away with it, Mafia stories are one example.

There's bias all over the place.

Of course I don't believe everything that I read; just like I hope you don't believe everything you hear on the streets. And don't discount the power of an internet connection; there are people who earn advanced degrees from well-known academic institutions solely via the internet. I'm not saying it's the end-all-be-all of everything, but it is a powerful tool.
And I have no knowledge of surfing or surfers (generalize much?) even though I live in So. Cal.
And the thing is, you living in a certain area of New York doesn't automatically mean that you will have an honest, unbiased, and realistic opinion about what you see or hear on a daily basis. Furthermore, info that you get from a guy who knows a guy or from a guy who has to go see a guy about a thing over there doesn't mean that you have better or more accurate info about organized crime than a guy like me sitting on the West Coast. Don't street guys like to embellish or stretch the truth a little? Do neighborhood legends and stories tend to grow and distort over time? Don't mistake proximity for accuracy.
I think I'd put more stock in FBI surveillance and audio tapes, informants, and government turncoats than I would in the average guy on the street who knows a few people.
I mean, you may know more about a lot of things than I do, but it's not an absolute. You have an opinion, I have mine. You don't think I'm qualified to have my opinion, I think I am.
I guess we are stuck.

Seriously I couldnt read past your informant sentence! Those guys have zero reason to be truthful! There saving there own ass! As for the rest over your argument, your a waste of my time. You sound so clueless I almost wonder if you need help turning your computer on. Generalizing much? Your so bent on winning an argument you've lost sight of any rational points. Good luck living in fantasy land. And it's never to late to admit when you don't know or your wrong.

Dude i respect you but i think you are really going overboard when it comes to JasonAnthony. I mean they guy never said he knows everything. All he said is that both of you have different opinions and you are still attacking him.

No offense, but you seem way too childish to even reach. I'm a waste of your time? What, do you have a heart that you have to go transplant, or a bridge to go build? LOL
You are one of these guys who has to resort to name calling and personal attacks to get your point across. There's really no reason for that.

And your one of those clowns who has no clue and acts and talks like you do. Your here with zero first hand experience and you have this all knkwing attitude. Its ok to read and learn. If your ego cant handle that then dont respond. If we were sitting aside eachother you wouldnt have your same hardline opinion. Three people have validated my staement, PizzaBoy and Schmo, those two members alone have more experience than anyone you will ever meet. If they agree with me I am comfortable. Again, I am done with this conversation.

That's great. I don't resort to your level, but I think I probably know as much as you do about this topic. And my original opinion about the mob being a predatory organization remains unchanged. My ego can handle someone disagreeing with me just fine. Can yours? hmmm! I won't start name calling or getting defensive if you don't agree with me; that's a characteristic of a mature person! :-)

Yeah you probably know as much as everyone here! Your correct! That Internet plug in is a substitute for first hand knowledge. Whatever blows your skirt up!

I agree with most of what you've posted, JoeSchmo. But for the sake of clarity I just want to point out to you that there hasn't been a crew on 116th Street for quite some time. East Harlem is something like 90 percent Latino and Black today. I still take my father down there a few times a year to visit the Church (Mount Carmel) and whatnot, but to say there's still an Italian presence let alone a mob presence is more than a stretch. And I'm sure that EastHarlemItal will back up what I'm saying.

As far as the East Bronx, they're still here but not as visible as in years past. There really aren't even any social clubs that are left. Where I live in Throggs Neck is still home to many of these guys, but you just don't see them hanging out as much today.

I would agree with everything you've stated, its all from what we can see "underground". Outside of Mt Carmel, Rao's that small clique of families its almost all gone. My opinion, once the Palma got to hot it was time to stay in the Bronx. Another opinion I have come to terms with, all racism aside, white people started to stick out like sore thumbs around here. And while I will argue it has got much nicer over the last few years. The 80's and 99's were not kind to this area! It was a DUMP. You use to be proud being from this area, lost that feeling.

It's not racist to state a fact. And that's a fact. To be a white person living in that area today is a rarity.

What exactly can they oversee out of harlem at this point? Unless their into drugs.

Nothing. That's why they're not in Harlem today.

Again with the insults. Insult anyone who disagrees with you. But Internet plugs are very powerful. Don't know why you are so against the Internet. There is a statute of limitations on most crimes, so whatever you did online, just wait it out! :-) But I hope you get over your anger problem.

Wiretap tapes......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWByAEBRWlU

That's not a wiretap. It's a prison recording.

I do get a kick out of Gotti tapes, though .

that includes some wiretaps

Okay, my bad. I just picked it up when he was ranting about getting fan mail in jail.

But like I said, listening to Gotti's egotistical rants are always good for a few laughs.

Yeah they are it shows how moronic he really is. Yet hes a hero to some people?

I got one question.

Who is the guy laughing? Krusty the Clown?

Also here's something else I found........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2d0_UFxTwc

i like those surveillance videos from 1979 when gotti wasnt really known

Yeah, it's obvious that years spent in near-solitary confinement didn't damper Gotti's cockiness. And I guess his fan mail was something that still made him feel like he was on top. But you have to question the types of people who would actually write to a convicted mobster like he was some sort of rock star!

Yeah, those surveillance tapes are interesting. Gotti was always sort of flashy, even when he wasn't decked out in Brioni suits.

Gotti was an egomaniac. I mean this is a guy who has his hair cut every day and had manicures lol

Those particular surveillance tapes are from 1988-1990.
Cool to see Tommy Gambino on them.

Do you have a link to the tapes? Wasn't Tommy Gambino carlo's son??

Wilson posted the link in a post on the previous page.
Yes, Tommy was Carlo´s son.

I remember reading somewhere that Raplh Natale said he was made in a warehouse by Tommy Gambino back in the 70's which was probably bolshit

I dont mean those that were posted. Im talking about ones i've seen in documentaries

According to Robert Midget Molley (BET did an American Gangster episode on him) was in Marion when Gotti was assaulted, this is his take on what went down:

VG: It's like that in the FEDS?
MM: Let me tell you something!!! A few years after that they shipped me to Marion, the lockdown prison, claiming I was a threat to the orderly running of the prison; I'll tell you how I got to Marion later. but check this out!!! A dude named Philly got into a beef with John Gottiover some dum shit. It was around 7 o'clock at night. Gotti said, "Keep the noise down!!" Philly didn't respond because in Marion dudes don't speak from behind bars unless they know who they talkin to. So Philly never said nothin… The next mornin during rec, Philly whispered to the dude he was talkin to, askin him "Who was that last night that said keep the noise down." He told Philly It was John Gotti. Philly just brush it off and went and sat on the bench to the far left of the rec cage. Gotti walked over and said "This is my sit!!!" Philly said, "What you say man!!!" Gotti said, This is my sit!!!" Yo!! The young kid punished him!!! He bust his nose, his mouth, everything, yo. Most of the convicts were upset 'cause Gotti was cool with most of us. But this what people gotta understand on the street, you might be the man and all that, but in prison the roles can be easily changed. That same crack head on the street that people lookin down on can be a shot-caller in prison or a ruthless killer.

http://www.myspace.com/midgetmolley/blog

Wut Up DOGZZ.. Midget my people..1.100...Gotti deserved to get his ass kicked you think gotti was sharing his food and shit with them ...

That's a totally different version of the story than any I've ever heard before. Who knows what really happened.

I will say this once as for Sterotypes on here I'm sorry...

But Midgit Molly is the poster boy of whats wrong with America!