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Mob myths, facts and realities

Posted By: Turnbull

Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/21/07 06:56 PM

Many people on these boards, especially younger people, ask questions or make statements about Mob life that are often myths--not realities. I'd like to start a thread that helps clear up the myths. I'll post occasionally, and ask you to post your own ideas, thoughts, explanations. Here's the first:

BEING "MADE" IN THE MOB IS DANGEROUS TO LIFE AND LIBERTY

Many younger people believe that getting "made" in the Mafia is the ultimate glory. Nothing could be further from the truth: Getting "made" is just about the worst thing that could happen to anyone:

First you have to serve an "apprenticeship," during which you'll have to kiss the asses of every member of the crew you hope to join, and turn over most of your earnings to a boss who thinks you're lower than whale s**t. If you're "lucky," the apprenticeship will last for a decade or less. By that time, you'll have convinced the boss that you're dumb and compliant enough to be "honored" by being made.

So, you'll probably be assigned to kill someone you don't know, for a reason that's not explained to you; and take all the risk on yourself with no reward. If you manage to whack the guy without being killed, injured or arrested, your "reward" will be the famous "induction ceremony"--the fingers pricked so that your blood runs together with the Don's (just hope he doesn't have AIDS or some other STD); the burning saint's card, the oath, the kisses on the cheek, etc. Now you've got it made, right?

Wrong! Your troubles have just begun:
You'll be assigned to a crew chief whose purpose in life is to squeeze you dry. You'll be given a "living"--a sports betting operation, some numbers, drugs or loan shark action. But since the Mob is a pyramid scheme, your crew chief will give you a "nut"--an amount that you must kick back to him each week, whether or not your rackets generate enough profit to cover it. He'll set the amount so high that you'll have no time or opportunity to do anything on your own except work for him. And if you fail to meet the weekly nut, he'll hit you with the same "vig" that he charges his loan shark victims--six percent per week.

Oh, and let's not forget your new "brothers" in the Mafia--the guys who kissed you on the cheek when you got made, and now refer to you as "a friend of ours." Every one of them has contacts in law enforcement that they feed info to in return for being left alone to pursue their own rackets. As soon as your ceremony was completed, they were on the phone to their favorite cops, informing them of the newest member of the Mob. Suddenly you're going to get more attention from law enforcement personnel than a visiting head of state. Your "brothers" will see you as insurance for them when they commit high profile crimes: they'll tip off their police pals that you did the dirty deeds. And, if you manage to survive all of that, the Don'll evntually get nailed on a RICO charge, and he'll rat out you and your other "brothers" in return for a free pass to the Witness Protection Program.

"Honored Society"? You'd be better off washing dishes for a living.
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/21/07 07:07 PM





Excellent post Turnbull. Well said.

And if I might add something, when you get made, you may not be lucky enough to be ordered to kill someone that you don't know. Many times, to test one's loyalty, the boss will order you to kill someone that you've grown very close to in the life, even if he's your best friend!

Not a way that I would want to live.

There's no glory in that life whatsoever.


Don Cardi
Posted By: DonPacino

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/21/07 07:24 PM

Exactly. When I first watched Goodfellas I became really intrested in the mafia, I admitedly thought WOW what a great life. After more research I found out that you can not trust anybody or rely on your 'friends'. Great thread TB!
Posted By: SC

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/21/07 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull

"Honored Society"? You'd be better off washing dishes for a living.


Well, with washing dishes you don't have to worry about coming clean.

Good post, TB!
Posted By: olivant

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/21/07 07:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Many people on these boards, especially younger people, ask questions or make statements about Mob life that are often myths--not realities. I'd like to start a thread that helps clear up the myths. I'll post occasionally, and ask you to post your own ideas, thoughts, explanations. Here's the first:

BEING "MADE" IN THE MOB IS DANGEROUS TO LIFE AND LIBERTY

Many younger people believe that getting "made" in the Mafia is the ultimate glory. Nothing could be further from the truth: Getting "made" is just about the worst thing that could happen to anyone:

First you have to serve an "apprenticeship," during which you'll have to kiss the asses of every member of the crew you hope to join, and turn over most of your earnings to a boss who thinks you're lower than whale s**t. If you're "lucky," the apprenticeship will last for a decade or less. By that time, you'll have convinced the boss that you're dumb and compliant enough to be "honored" by being made.

So, you'll probably be assigned to kill someone you don't know, for a reason that's not explained to you; and take all the risk on yourself with no reward. If you manage to whack the guy without being killed, injured or arrested, your "reward" will be the famous "induction ceremony"--the fingers pricked so that your blood runs together with the Don's (just hope he doesn't have AIDS or some other STD); the burning saint's card, the oath, the kisses on the cheek, etc. Now you've got it made, right?

Wrong! Your troubles have just begun:
You'll be assigned to a crew chief whose purpose in life is to squeeze you dry. You'll be given a "living"--a sports betting operation, some numbers, drugs or loan shark action. But since the Mob is a pyramid scheme, your crew chief will give you a "nut"--an amount that you must kick back to him each week, whether or not your rackets generate enough profit to cover it. He'll set the amount so high that you'll have no time or opportunity to do anything on your own except work for him. And if you fail to meet the weekly nut, he'll hit you with the same "vig" that he charges his loan shark victims--six percent per week.

Oh, and let's not forget your new "brothers" in the Mafia--the guys who kissed you on the cheek when you got made, and now refer to you as "a friend of ours." Every one of them has contacts in law enforcement that they feed info to in return for being left alone to pursue their own rackets. As soon as your ceremony was completed, they were on the phone to their favorite cops, informing them of the newest member of the Mob. Suddenly you're going to get more attention from law enforcement personnel than a visiting head of state. Your "brothers" will see you as insurance for them when they commit high profile crimes: they'll tip off their police pals that you did the dirty deeds. And, if you manage to survive all of that, the Don'll evntually get nailed on a RICO charge, and he'll rat out you and your other "brothers" in return for a free pass to the Witness Protection Program.

"Honored Society"? You'd be better off washing dishes for a living.


Ditto!
Posted By: DE NIRO

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/21/07 10:38 PM

Great topic and thread.
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/21/07 10:51 PM

Originally Posted By: DonPacino
Exactly. When I first watched Goodfellas I became really intrested in the mafia, I admitedly thought WOW what a great life. After more research I found out that you can not trust anybody or rely on your 'friends'. Great thread TB!


DonPacino, I must commend you for your understanding and your maturity in realizing that the mob life is not all it's cracked up to be and that these people are not the kind of people that anyone should ever look up too.

It's very easy, especially for a young man your age, to become infatuated with the mob because of the way that hollywood glamorizes them and uses their magic to make you root for them. And there's nothing wrong in getting caught up in the moment or with the character that is being portrayed on the big screen. As long as when those credits roll, one realizes that it's not as glorious as it's made out to be in the movies.

Obviously we are all interested in mob movies and learning about real life mobsters, or we wouldn't be talking here. And being interested in the mob, it's people and how it operates is not a bad thing in itself. As a matter of fact it's very intruiging.

But as long as that interest stays at a level where it's only an interest in learning things and wanting to understand why they do the things that they do and operate the way that they do, and stops at that.

I am gald to see that a young man such as yourself has the mentality that you do and can differenciate the mobster life that's portrayed in the movies from the mobster life of the real world.


Don Cardi
Posted By: Mignon

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/21/07 11:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
the Don'll evntually get nailed on a RICO charge,


What is a RICO charge?
Posted By: DE NIRO

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/21/07 11:03 PM

Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organisations

Changed the Mafia World,More to Follow....Turnbull your on.
Posted By: DonPacino

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/21/07 11:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Don Cardi
Originally Posted By: DonPacino
Exactly. When I first watched Goodfellas I became really intrested in the mafia, I admitedly thought WOW what a great life. After more research I found out that you can not trust anybody or rely on your 'friends'. Great thread TB!


DonPacino, I must commend you for your understanding and your maturity in realizing that the mob life is not all it's cracked up to be and that these people are not the kind of people that anyone should ever look up too.

It's very easy, especially for a young man your age, to become infatuated with the mob because of the way that hollywood glamorizes them and uses their magic to make you root for them. And there's nothing wrong in getting caught up in the moment or with the character that is being portrayed on the big screen. As long as when those credits roll, one realizes that it's not as glorious as it's made out to be in the movies.

Obviously we are all interested in mob movies and learning about real life mobsters, or we wouldn't be talking here. And being interested in the mob, it's people and how it operates is not a bad thing in itself. As a matter of fact it's very intruiging.

But as long as that interest stays at a level where it's only an interest in learning things and wanting to understand why they do the things that they do and operate the way that they do, and stops at that.

I am gald to see that a young man such as yourself has the mentality that you do and can differenciate the mobster life that's portrayed in the movies from the mobster life of the real world.


Don Cardi



Thankyou DC. I am very glad to hear your impression of me. I do get caught up in the portrayal of a character in a movie, but I know as soon as those credits roll the movies over. My mum hates me watching those films nut I have loads of them! But thankyou DC for you're kind words and I hope to be on these bords discussing mob films, and the mob itself for many years to come.
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/21/07 11:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Mignon
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
the Don'll evntually get nailed on a RICO charge,


What is a RICO charge?


The Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization Act (RICO) was passed by Congress to eradicate organized crime in the United States. It means that it is unlawful for anyone to be associated with any organization engaged in the practice of racketeering activities.


In order for the governemnt to charge someone with RICO, it has to show a pattern of racketeering activity and requires at least two acts of racketeering activity committed within ten years of each other. The government must show that the racketeering predicates are related, and that they amount to or pose a threat of continued criminal activity.

If the government arrests a mobster, who is part of a mob family, for for comitting a crime, under the RICO act they can attempt to charge the bosses in that family with being a part of the conspiracy to the crime committed, even if those bosses physically did not commit the actual crime themselves. If the government can show that the person who committed the crime belongs to a mob family and committed that crime on behalf of the organization/family itself, then they can charge all those in the chain of command under the RICO act.

RICO changed the focus from prosecuting individual criminals to prosecuting individuals who committed crimes which benefited corrupt organizations such as crime families.




Don Cardi
Posted By: DonMichaelCorleone

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/22/07 12:45 AM

Just to add to what DC said, if I remember correctly, the law was written but for what 5 or 10 years it was never used? It seemed like a law that would have appeared to be doing a lot against organized crime but prosecutors didn't know how to use it, so it was just laying around on the book for years before ever being used.
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/22/07 01:26 AM

I believe that the firt use of the RICO act was against a mobster named Frank "Funzi" Tieri back in the early 80's.


And if I'm not mistake, former U.S. Attorney Rudy Giuliani was one of the first to use the RICO act against a non mobbed up businessman who was a junk bond trader and schemer named Michael Milkin. He was charged with Racketeering and fraud. First Ivan Boesky, a Wall Street mogual, was arrested for insider trading. He turned state's evidence and ratted on several of his cohorts including Michael Milkin. And the RICO act was used in prosecuting all those who Boesky ratted on.


Don Cardi
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/22/07 04:11 AM

All true about RICO, guys.
The real impact of RICO is that, before it was passed, law enforcement had to catch a Mob guy in the act of committing a crime, and get more than one witness to it. RICO made it a crime, punishable by double-digit sentences, to be part of a "criminal conspiracy." "Conspiracy" is very important:" no corroborating witness is required for the government to obtain a conviction. And RICO also eased the burden of proof by simply requiring law enforcement to show that the accused was part of a "pattern" of crimes.
"Corrupt organization" is also very important. That means that if the Mob guy was influencing a labor union (a favorite of Mobs), the union could be characterized as a "corrupt organization."
Two other very important aspects of RICO:
1. A guy who was victimized by the Mob could be considered part of a "corrupt organization" because he "cooperated" with the Mob even though he was forced. So, if you were a degenerate gambler who was into a Mob loan shark for a lot of money that you couldn't pay back; and the Mob guy forced you to "bust out" your business to pay him back; then you could be charged under RICO because your busting out of your business constituted a "corrupt organization." Faced with a double digit sentence, you'd have a big incentive to cooperate with law enforcement against the Mob guy.
2. RICO for the first time specified iron-clad rules for obtaining phone taps and other forms of electronic surveillance that would stand up as evidence in any court of law. Previously, a lot of "bugs" were thrown out by judges as being illegal. Not after RICO, though.
And, yes DMC and DC: it's true that RICO languished for 10 years before Rudy Giuliani, as US Attorney for the Southern District of New York, finally figured out how to use it. He invited Robert Blakely, the lawyer who wrote RICO, to daily brief his investigators and assistant prosecutors on how the law could work. Giuliani, a great fan of the GF Trilogy, called Blakely, "my consigliere." After his huge success in the famous Commission case, prosecutors all over the country figured out that they could heap glory on themselves by using RICO to prosecute the Mob.
The best source on RICO and how it works is Selwyn Raab's "The Five Families," IMO the best Mob book of the last 10 years.
Posted By: Signor Vitelli

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/22/07 06:23 AM

This is a necessary and valuable thread.

Turnbull, thank you for starting it off.

For what it's worth, I feel it would be a good idea to keep this near the top of the threads in this forum, and it should be required reading whenever Don Malta opens the books to new GangsterBB members.

Signor V.
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/22/07 01:49 PM

Good idea Vitelli. It is now on the top of this thread.



Don Cardi
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/22/07 01:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull


Giuliani, a great fan of the GF Trilogy,


For that alone, he deserves to be President of the United States!




Don Cardi
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/22/07 05:39 PM

Thanks for the swell reception, guys! Here’s another entry:

DOES THE COMMISSION CONTROL ORGANIZED CRIME?

No. Contrary to what many people believe, the Commission does not adjudicate inter- or intra-family disputes, divvy up territories, sanction murders, or maintain a common treasury or army to punish renegades or law enforcement foes (like Joe Pistone). But Mafia families do cooperate when it serves their purposes:

The only thing Mob families have in common are greed, and distrust of their fellow Mobsters. But they try to avoid wars, which are wasteful and destructive, and they do agree on broad arrangements that suit them. Most often the arrangements are made between families, not at Commission meetings. And they are made only by mutual agreement. Dons are highly individualistic, and the Commission cannot force any family to do its bidding. Or, as Mario Puzo noted in the GF novel: Dons shared two characteristics--they were good listeners, and no one could bend their will unless they were persuaded by utmost reasonableness. Here's a little history:

Charlie Luciano formed the Commission after the Castellemmarese War of 1930-31. His vision of the Commission was not as a “governing body” for organized crime that would manage Mob affairs or even allocate territories. Rather, he saw the Commission as a kind of corporate Board of Directors that would meet occasionally to allow the rugged individuals to discuss broad matters of interest to all.

Luciano had his own agenda: Though born in Sicily, he was a thoroughly American businessman, and was dedicated to destroying the “Moustache Pete” mentality that led to the war and to Salvatore Maranzano declaring himself capo di tutti capi. He also saw that, with Prohibition’s days numbered, new opportunities would emerge that families could share in if they learned to cooperate. Luciano also recognized that help should be welcomed from any useful sources, including non-Sicilians and even non-Italians. That’s why he nominated Al Capone as chairman of the Commission, and included Jews like Meyer Lansky, Lepke Bucholter, Dutch Shultz and Bugsy Siegel in Commission meetings.

His forceful personality drove the Commission, but neither he nor the Commission as a whole ever micromanaged families’ affairs. They stuck with broad strokes. A representative accomplishment was to get agreement that Dutch Shultz’s plan to whack New York special prosecutor Thomas E. Dewey was a threat to all Commission members, and to whack Shultz. After his imprisonment and exile to Italy, Luciano convened an important Commission meeting in Havana in 1946, at which Siegel’s fate was sealed and a general direction set for the future of Nevada gaming. This, too, was a broad stroke: the Commission didn’t divvy up territory, it simply ruled that no single family owned Vegas. What’s more, Jewish gangsters, not Mafiosi, dominated Vegas in the immediate postwar era.

The Commission declined after Luciano was run out of Cuba. Meetings were held every 18-24 months, and were usually dominated by an individual Don’s personal agenda. For example, the famously aborted Apalachin NY meeting of 1957 was called by Vito Genovese to bless drug trafficking, endorse his protégé Carlo Gambino as Albert Anastasia’s successor, and to anoint Don Vitone as de facto capo di tutti capi. But it was doomed to fail even before police busted it up because Joe Bonanno had recently cut a huge drug deal with Luciano in Sicily, and boycotted the meeting; and because Frank Costello and Meyer Lansky were already plotting against Genovese.

The Commission made a grandstand play in the early Sixties when a plot by Bonanno and his ally Joe Magliocco to whack Tommy Luchese and Gambino was uncovered. The Commission forced Magliocco to resign his Donship in favor of Joe Columbo (who betrayed the plot). Magliocco was seriously ill with heart disease and was ready to quit. But when Bonanno refused to appear before them, the Commission ordered him to step down and appointed Gaspar DiGregorio as his successor. A war ensued that not only wrecked the Bonannos, but also weakened the Commission, which failed to impose its will on a member family.

The “Banana War” was in effect the Commission’s last gasp. They met only sporadically after that. Paul Castellano called a meeting after Carlo Gambino appointed him his successor. Castellano recognized that he was not the man Gambino was; and with the Gambinos as the largest and most geographically powerful family in New York, he was looking for agreement to maintain the territorial status quo. He also wanted to placate his powerful underboss, Neil Dellacroce, and those Dons who favored “Mr. Neil” over Big Paul. John Gotti didn’t ask Commission approval to whack Castellano—and got away with it.

Mafia families did cooperate with each other during this period, and still do. Some rackets, like garbage hauling, concrete contracting and the former Fulton Fish Market, were and are big enough that all families share in them. Since their neighborhood operations abut each other, they often meet to delimit territories. But none of this involves the Commission.
Posted By: Ice

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/22/07 06:21 PM

Um, err.....what Mafia? Who said anything about the Mafia? There is no mafia. The mafia doesn't exist.

It's a myth.

(Nice thread, TB. Even though I have NO idea what you mean by this 'mafia' thing. )
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/22/07 06:42 PM

Excellent thread guys. I would have weighed in earlier but there's a cable line down on my block and I'm without internet service for the time being. I'm actually in a Barnes And Noble with my laptop right now.

I'm glad to see that some of the younger guys here are smart enough to not be impressed by "the life". I have to admit, that as a younger guy, it impressed the hell out of me and believe me, as our friend Turnbull said, you truly are better off washing dishes. But you live and learn, acually you're very lucky if you live and learn.

Anyway, as far as RICO, listen to TB and DC. I have little to add other that the fact that it actually sprang from the McClellan hearings of the the late 1950's. It's roots being the Landrum-Griffin Act, kind of a working man's bill of rights, formed to protect union members from corrupt union officials.
However, union lobbyists quickly knocked it down. A furious John McClellan bit back by drafting the now famous RICO Act of 1970.

As stated earlier, it sat on the shelf, largely unused, until the Reagan administration and a gung-ho prosecutor by the name of Rudy Giuliani put it to use in the mid 1980's.

It was truly the beginning of the end for the mob as we'd come to know it.
Posted By: Ice

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/22/07 07:48 PM

Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Excellent thread guys. I would have weighed in earlier but there's a cable line down on my block and I'm without internet service for the time being. I'm actually in a Barnes And Noble with my laptop right now.

I'm glad to see that some of the younger guys here are smart enough to not be impressed by "the life". I have to admit, that as a younger guy, it impressed the hell out of me and believe me, as our friend Turnbull said, you truly are better off washing dishes. But you live and learn, acually you're very lucky if you live and learn.

Anyway, as far as RICO, listen to TB and DC. I have little to add other that the fact that it actually sprang from the McClellan hearings of the the late 1950's. It's roots being the Landrum-Griffin Act, kind of a working man's bill of rights, formed to protect union members from corrupt union officials.
However, union lobbyists quickly knocked it down. A furious John McClellan bit back by drafting the now famous RICO Act of 1970.

As stated earlier, it sat on the shelf, largely unused, until the Reagan administration and a gung-ho prosecutor by the name of Rudy Giuliani put it to use in the mid 1980's.

It was truly the beginning of the end for the mob as we'd come to know it.


I got my own family, pizzaboy.
Posted By: DE NIRO

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/24/07 10:14 PM

I think this thread earned you your Button now as well
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/26/07 09:44 PM

Here’s another in the series (BTW: please feel free to post your own myths vs. realities):

DOES THE MAFIA TAKE CARE OF “STANDUP GUYS”?
Nope. Not anymore--if they ever did...

The myth that the Mafia will support a made guy and his family if he honors omerta was expressed quaintly in the GF novel. Puzo wrote that a man sent to prison “had only to keep his mouth shut and his wife and children would be cared for…a warm welcome would be his when he left prison…a party…the best food and wine…all his friends and relatives gathered to rejoice in his freedom…perhaps even the Don himself would drop by to pay his respects to such a stalwart…”

This tale may have had some basis before World War II, when Mob economics were simpler. Soldiers did the grunt work that was most likely to expose them to arrest (the higher-ups got the white collar rackets). In the days before investigative journalism and instant electronic news media, it was far easier for the Mob to bribe politicians, judges and law enforcement—and for them to accept the bribes without detection. Often, Mob soldiers were caught in so-called “victimless” crimes, such as gambling, prostitution and illicit alcohol. And people hurt or killed in Mob shakedowns and violence were those that society didn’t care about—degenerate gamblers, drug addicts, crooked labor leaders, ethnic minorities, etc. So it was easy for a soldier who actually got arrested and convicted to receive a light sentence, or have a major charge reduced to a minor one. In those hard economic times, a soldier didn’t live a lot better than a regular working stiff, so his financial needs were small, and the payout to his family was small, too. The soldier needed his job, and it was in his interest to keep his mouth shut, suck up the light sentence, and go back to work after prison. And there was no Witness Protection Program to shelter him.

But the myth pales before the reality that today’s Mafia is an empire based on greed. Its financial structure is a pyramid scheme in which money flows upward to the Don, not downward to soldiers. A Don takes the attitude that the soldier knew the risks when he signed on. If he gets caught, it’s his problem. In today’s every-man-for-himself Mafia, the assumption is that he’ll turn rat anyway. So the imperative for the Don is to protect himself through “buffers,” not to buy silence by supporting the soldier and his family, which the Don would view as a sign of weakness on his part—in effect, setting himself up for potential blackmail.

John Gotti’s career provides real-life examples. Gotti had been in Carmine Fatico’s Gambino Family crew for about 12 years when he was arrested in 1968 for hijacking. He got a three-year sentence—and no help from the Gambinos. His family was forced onto the welfare rolls, and his wife almost divorced him. When he got out, he was made acting crew chief. But when he was arrested in 1974 after killing James McBratney, who had kidnapped and murdered Gambino’s nephew, he got no help directly from his Don. Instead, Gambino passed the hat around to his capos and crew chiefs. They reluctantly coughed up enough money to hire Roy Cohn, one of New York’s highest-powered lawyers, who got the charge reduced from murder to manslaughter. Gotti didn’t get formally “made” until he got out of prison four years later.

And that’s how Gambino, the most powerful Don, in the most powerful family in the US, treated a “standup guy” who later became the Don. Later, Gotti tried to get Sammy Da Bull to take the rap for the Castellano murder—which stimulated Da Bull to rat Gotti out.

There’s not only no honor among thieves, there’s no loyalty, either.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/26/07 10:07 PM

Another great post TB.

They've created more than one rat by propagating the notion that the families of imprisoned wiseguys would be taken care of while the wiseguy is in prison.

The disillusioned footsoldier, upon his release from prison, will often become an informant out of revenge.
Posted By: DonPacino

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/26/07 10:16 PM

TB, is the irish mafia the same?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/27/07 01:14 AM

Originally Posted By: DonPacino
TB, is the irish mafia the same?

Sorry, I don't know enough about them to answer, DP. But "no honor among thieves" isn't an exclusive Italian Mafia characteristic.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/27/07 04:31 AM

Originally Posted By: DonPacino
TB, is the irish mafia the same?


I would say that anyone or group that murders for fun and profit has the same level of morality as onyone else or any other group that murders for fun and profit.

It's interesting that the HBO series "Rome" has current episodes that illustrate the gangs of Rome in the B.C. era. Somethings about people never change.
Posted By: BDuff

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/02/07 02:11 PM

During the 80's and 90's, every high profile mobster in Philadelphia were getting nailed by RICO. Nicky Scarfo (In a Super Max Prison will be out in 2033...he'll be 104), Ralph Natale (6 life sentences), Skinny Joy Merlino (current Boss, out in four years), Steven Mazzone (current Underboss out in '08), and George Borgesi (current Consigliere out in 2012).

As for the mob life...Hollywood makes these guys look somewhat regular people with a dark secret. In truth...their scumbags, guys you don't want to be around, big time low-lifes.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/02/07 06:21 PM

Originally Posted By: BDuff
During the 80's and 90's, every high profile mobster in Philadelphia were getting nailed by RICO. Nicky Scarfo (In a Super Max Prison will be out in 2033...he'll be 104), Ralph Natale (6 life sentences), Skinny Joy Merlino (current Boss, out in four years), Steven Mazzone (current Underboss out in '08), and George Borgesi (current Consigliere out in 2012).

As for the mob life...Hollywood makes these guys look somewhat regular people with a dark secret. In truth...their scumbags, guys you don't want to be around, big time low-lifes.


That prety much sums it up BDuff, good job.

As far as Philadelphia, I really think the currently imprisoned administration will all be re-indicted before their possible release dates. The government seems to have a hard on, in particular, for Merlino.

They put him away last time, largely on the testimony of former cop-turned wiseguy-turned rat, Ron Previte. The evidence wasn't very strong and they still got their conviction.

Sidebar about Previte - The main reason he turned informant ?

FBI wiretaps had him on tape bad mouthing the Genovese Family and Vincent Gigante, in particular. He knew that when the tapes became public, he wouldn't be long for this world.
Posted By: BDuff

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/02/07 11:57 PM

"Sidebar about Previte - The main reason he turned informant ?

FBI wiretaps had him on tape bad mouthing the Genovese Family and Vincent Gigante, in particular. He knew that when the tapes became public, he wouldn't be long for this world. "

Very interesting, never knew that. You're right about the current Philadelphia hierarchy, they'll never get out. The FBI knows once those three (Merlino, Borgesi, and Mazzone) get out the Bruno Family will be back and up to old things. Philadelphia has enough on its plate as it is (65 murders so far this year) and doesn't need a Mafia rebirth taking place. The Philadelphia Faction had it's chance in the early 80s to become very powerful family, like a New York family, because of thier location near Atlantic City. But over 37 murders, greed, and paranoia left the family in shambles by '89.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/03/07 12:39 AM

It's not just Philadelphia, Scarfo just followed suit.

He and Gotti were cut from the same cloth, both very flashy and megalomaniacal. Throw in greed, and soldiers on everything from cocaine to steroids. Add in government surveillance, technology, and the newly enforced RICO law, and it was the beginning of the end for everyone, not just the Philadelphia family.

What's ironic about Philly was that the family was so low key and old school under Angelo Bruno, who much like Paul Castellano, didn't really believe that his capos posed that big a threat.

Boy, were they wrong.
Posted By: BDuff

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/03/07 01:21 AM

A shotgun blast to the back of the head would suggest that. I live in Philadelphia and have always been interested in the Mafia history of it. As of now, the Irish control most of the narcotics, loansharking, etc. They're called the K&A Gang if you're not familiar with them. Pretty tough guys, Scarfo used them for hitmen for some hits and never tried to upset them.

K&A stands for Kennsington & Alleghaeny. In 2002 a mobster named Ray Matorano, upon his release from prison, had a plan to take over the Philadelphia Mafia. He requested backing from the Five New York Families. The K&A Gang got wind of this and he was killed on the way to his docotr's office. Motorano planned to finally rid Philly of K&A. Surprisingly, the Mafia Commission did nothing about the hit, since Philly has been a mess for quite some time.

As for Scarfo, the guy was a Psychopath. As a Boss he would go out with his guys on hits because he enjoyed the experience. Apparently during a hit, he grabbed a gun from a soldier started shooting the target and shouted, "I love killing people".
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/03/07 01:27 AM

Yeah, I read that story about Scarfo in one of George Anastasia's books. He's to Philly what Capeci is to New York.

Scarfo reaching out to the Irish gang parallels Big Paul reaching out to the Westies in the early 80s.

Talk about crazy ? Read THE WESTIES by T.J. English, it's one of the great true crime books ever written.
Posted By: BDuff

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/03/07 02:44 AM

The Westies was a fantastic book, and George Anatasia (spelling?) is a great mob author. A good Irish mob book is "Paddywhacked", chronicals the history of the Irish, some great stuff of Whitey Bulger, Mad Dog Coll, and Owney Madden.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/03/07 10:11 PM

They used to call Albert Anasasia "the Mad Hatter." Albert A was a model of sanity and reason compared with Scarfo--and Anthony (Gaspipe) Casso.
Posted By: BDuff

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/04/07 02:53 PM

"Anthony (Gaspipe) Casso"

Who was he? Not familiar with the name....
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/04/07 05:20 PM

Originally Posted By: BDuff
"Anthony (Gaspipe) Casso"

Who was he? Not familiar with the name....


Casso was once the underboss to Victor Amuso of the Luchesse family. He got the nickname "Gaspipe" because he used to use a piece of pipe to threaten his victims.

Casso & Vincent "The Chin" Gigante were the ones who conspired to have John Gotti killed for not getting "commission approval" for killing Paul Castellano by having a bomb placed under a car that Gotti was supposed to get into. (Whether or not that was the real reason for their conspiring to kill Gotti is another story and in my opinion it probably wasn't). But Gotti never got into that car and instead his underboss, Frank DeCicco, who did get into that car, was killed.

After Amuso was sent to prison in 1991, it was alledged that Casso became the acting boss of the family. During this crackdown on the mob, several gangsters began to turn rat, and Casso was named in several indictments and one of them included the charge of murder. So Casso went on the lam for several years. And when he was finally caught, he himself turned rat and agreed to testified on behalf of the federal government and was placed into the witness protection program. It turned out the the government felt that a lot of what Casso had told them was BS and would never stand up in a court of law. So Casso was removed from the witness protection program and sent back to prison where he is serving a life sentence.

At the time of his going into the witness protection program, Anthony "Gaspipe" Casso tried to convince the government that two cops named Louis Eppolito and Steven Caracappa were dirty cops working for the mob, but the government felt that he was BSing them and would not be a believable witness in a court of law.

Ironically a few years ago the same two cops, Eppolito and Caracappa, were aressted and convicted for their involvment with organized crime.


Don Cardi
Posted By: DE NIRO

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/04/07 05:29 PM

Originally Posted By: BDuff
"Anthony (Gaspipe) Casso"

Who was he? Not familiar with the name....


Theres a few chapters on "Gaspipe" in the Five Familes very interesting read

Posted By: BDuff

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/04/07 05:29 PM

Thanks Don Cardi, I remember hearing about those two dirty cops in news a while ago. Pretty interesting stuff, surprised Casso wasn't whacked in jail.
Posted By: DE NIRO

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/04/07 05:31 PM

Originally Posted By: BDuff
Thanks Don Cardi, I remember hearing about those two dirty cops in news a while ago. Pretty interesting stuff, surprised Casso wasn't whacked in jail.


This has been mentioned many times but i think both or one of the dirty cops had a small role in Goodfellas
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/04/07 05:44 PM

Casso was so unpredictable that one prosecutor likened the idea of using him on the stand to using Charles Manson as a defense witness.

It's ironic that just about everything he said about the "mob cops" turned out to be true.
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/04/07 05:57 PM

This here is just another example of a supposed tough guy mob boss living under the rules of la cosa nostra. When robbing, stealing and shaking down the average person, he had no fear. This was a guy who supposedly upheld a "commission rule" that a mob boss cannot be killed without prior approval and had no problem in conspiring to kill that person who broke that supposed rule. But when he himself finally faced murder charges and the possibility of getting wacked, he sang like a bird and ratted out anyone and everyone that he could. Now for his own selfish reasons, he threw every supposed mob rule that he ever advocated throughout his criminal life, right out the window!


Don Cardi
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/04/07 06:24 PM

A recent book, "The Brotherhoods," by Guy Lawson and William Oldham, although not nearly as good as Selwyn Raab's "The Five Families," does provide a bit more detail about Gaspipe Casso's lunacy, including insane stunts he tried to pull off in prison. Louis Eppolito, one of the two crooked detectives who are the nominal subjects of this book, appeared in "Goodfellas" in a bit part as "Fat Andy," one of the guys Henry introduced in Sonny's restaurant near the beginning (Eppolito's one line was, "Howya doin', guy?").
DC, another story I read about Casso's nickname was that his father had a neighborhood racket of diverting gas pipes from paying customers to others so that they wouldn't have to pay. This story is too ridiculous to believe.
Posted By: Unclelooney

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/05/07 08:54 PM

What about the myth of Lansky as this all powerful figure?
How did it start and why does it persist?
Posted By: Unclelooney

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/05/07 09:03 PM

Is Hank Messick responsible?

Was Lansky himself partly responsible?
He and Luciano both started to tell tall tales when they
thought writing memoirs would give them some much needed income.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/08/07 07:17 PM

You hit on a good point about Lansky. As some of us here have often posted, mob figures aren't the types to leave their collected papers to colleges and universities so that people like us can study them. Most of what we get about them comes from newspaper accounts whose accuracy was sketchy to begin with, and often highly sensationalized. The few mob biographies published tend to run with the sensationalized stuff--and even one error gets repeated dozens of times.
In Lansky's case, he was reputed to be "the richest gangster who ever lived...worth $300 million." But Lansky was one of the very few gangsters to have a competent biographer. Robert Lacey, his biographer ("Little Man - Meyer Lansky and the Gangster Life," a wonderful book!) tracked down the $300 million figure to Hank Greenspun, publisher of the Las Vegas Sun, who admitted he heard it second-hand and printed it because it was a big, impressive figure--and it was picked up dozens of times. Lacey said that, at most, Lansky was worth between $5 and $6 million--not chickenfeed, but hardly the stuff of $300 million. The reason that Lansky lived stp 81 and died peacefully, says Lacey, was that "he was the accountant--never the boss." He never acquired the wealth and power that so often lead to jealousy and murder in the Mob.
Posted By: Unclelooney

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/08/07 07:47 PM

lacey maintained that Lansky was worth considerably less than that. Lansky lost everything when Castro closed the casinos. What money he did have, he left to take care of his son Buddy.
The daughter blew that money. Jacob "Yiddy Bloom" Blumenfeld payed all of Buddy's hospital bills that first year after Lansky's death.
Posted By: Unclelooney

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/08/07 08:36 PM

The "Bigger Than US Steel" remark came when Lansky repeated what he'd just seen on the David Susskind show.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/08/07 10:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Unclelooney
lacey maintained that Lansky was worth considerably less than that. Lansky lost everything when Castro closed the casinos. What money he did have, he left to take care of his son Buddy.

Lacey said Lansky was worth $5-6M at his peak. He spent his last $50k paying for his son's (unsuccessful) operation.
Lansky did not "lose everything" when Castro nationalized the Havana Riviera and the other casinos. Lansky and a group of his investors put up $5 million, along with Batista's $6 million, to build the hotel. Most of the $5 million was put up by Lansky's partners, not him. He later prospered in Bahamas gambling.
Posted By: Unclelooney

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/09/07 01:41 PM

I don't have the book in front of me but I seem to remember he put up 3 million for the Havana casino.
When he came back to the states, he'd lost most of his money.
He'd lost most of his nest egg, Carpet joints were no longer tolerated like they had been in the past and he was too well known to prosper in that business.
Lacey's point in that book was that Lansky had been successful in the Jukebox business(Wurlitzer yanked the distributership
away from him because of his rep)he had famous friends and he was as he said at the Kefauver hearings, a "Gambler."
He was not however, this all powerful mob boss.

The stories about Ben Siegel's murder are a good example
of the Lansky myth.
If anyone had Siegel killed, it was Dave Berman, Gus greenbaum,
Doc Stacher and Moe Sedway.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/13/07 06:44 PM

Here's another "myth vs. reality" entry--a rework of something I posted quite a while ago:

OF COURSE The Mob deals drugs--but don't get caught!

A durable myth of the Mafia is that that they "ban" drug trafficking, and decree the "death penalty" for dealers. Wrong! The Mafia has been dealing drugs since Day One. Don Vito Cascio Ferro came to NYC in the early years of the last century in part to establish a drugs pipeline between Europe and the US. Charlie Luciano dealt drugs as a young man, and is reputed to have ratted out a partner in return for getting a pass from the cops. Joe Bonanno's "vacation" in Italy in 1957 was really a meeting with Luciano and some Sicilians to make Bonanno the top drugs guy in America. The aborted Apalachin NY meeting that year was, in part, an attempt by Vito Genovese to outflank Bonanno as the top drugs guy. He and Joe Valachi went to prison on drug charges. John Gotti was the top earner in Neil Dellacroce's empire becauase he and his crew dealt drugs...and on and on.

Drug-dealing puts Mafia bosses in a quandary: They know that heavy penalties are a threat to them. But they love the money that drugs bring in. They also know that a “ban” on drug trafficking in their families would be unenforceable—there is too much money and greed to stop it. They’d be in the position of the Federal Government during Prohibition: passing a law that nobody obeyed and everyone disrespected—and a Mafia boss can’t afford any disrespect. They wouldn’t be able to effectively police their families: how could they know everything that every street guy was doing every hour of every day? They might be in the position of having to kill the wrong guy, or worse (from their viewpoint), a good earner. Finally, a real “ban” would simply drive the trafficking totally underground—meaning that they wouldn’t get their cut.

So the Mafia Dons fall back on the common denominator of Mob life: hypocrisy. They declare a "ban" on anyone caught selling drugs, with a death penalty for violators--and promptly look the other way. They figure that the threat will discourage the weaker soldiers, who are more likely to get caught. The more capable, ambitious guys are be willing to take the risks—and are less likely to get caught. The money continues to flow upward, which is all the bosses care about.

Now let’s look at how this might work in real life:

Vinny is an up-and-coming made guy in a NY family that officially “bans” drug trafficking. He’s a good earner, so he’s been given a slice of territory in Spanish Harlem, where he has some gambling, sports betting and loan shark action. One day, Jose, a neighborhood guy who’s an occasional borrower, asks Vinny to lend him $8k for two weeks. Whoa, says Vinny, that’s a lot—what do I get as surety for my loan (other than your kneecaps)? Not to worry, says Jose: I know a guy who knows a guy who’s a crewman on a freighter coming to NY from Lebanon. He’s bringing in a kilo of heroin. By the time we finish cutting the stuff and selling it, we’ll make $80k. Vinny says yes. Two weeks later, Jose (looking real dapper in new threads and gold chains) pays him his $8k plus $960 vig (6%/week for two weeks). Technically, Vinny didn’t violate the Family’s ban on drug dealing—he didn’t sell drugs. But he financed a drug deal that put a key of H on the street.

Like every other Mob guy, Vinny’s greedy: why should he make only $960 on a deal that netted a nobody like Jose more than $70k? Jose comes to him a month later and says he wants to borrow $40k because the sailor’s coming in again, this time with five keys of H. Vinny says that, for such a big loan, he’ll have to meet the guy. He tells Jose to bring the sailor, and his five keys, to a Mobbed-up bar near the waterfront. As soon as they meet, Vinny pushes Jose aside and tells the guy that he’ll buy the five keys, directly. He tells him he wants a “volume discount”: Since he’s buying such a big quantity, he’ll pay $5k per key, not the $8k that Jose was going to pay. The sailor starts to protest but Vinny replies: “Hey, you’re still makin’ a pile of money on s**t that didn’t cost you more’n a coupla grand in Syria or wherever you got it. You don’t like it, you can leave—feet first.” The guy catches the drift, takes Vinny’s $25k and hands over the five kilos of heroin. Vinny smiles: “Hey, I’ll take all the s**t you wanna bring in, anytime you come to NY. Just let Jose know when you’re gonna be here.”

Jose’s been too scared to say anything, so Vinny throws him a bone. He puts his arm around him and says, “Hey, ya done good tonite, Jose. I’m gonna let you have that H. It’ll cost you $20k per key—that’s my fee for hosting the sitdown and for protection. Don’t worry about sellin’ it—if the s**t’s as good as you said, you can cut it down more.” Where’s Jose going to get $20k/kilo? He can borrow it from Vinny! Now Vinny’s got two sources of profit: he quadrupled what he paid for the heroin—and he’s getting vig from the guy he cheated. He could make even more if he sold it on the street, but Vinny’s too smart to take that risk, and too busy to spend his time mixing milk sugar with the drug and selling dime bags to a bunch of lowlifes. He’ll let Jose do it.

Now, Jose’s really got to hustle to make his payments to Vinny. So he recruits some members of a local street gang to sell the dime bags. But those guys are ruthless—they’re not going to settle for making a dollar on every dime bag. Their leader kills Jose, takes the remaining dime bags, cuts them further, and sells them. This is just what Vinny was expecting. He lets a couple of weeks go by, then grabs the gang leader off the street. Vinny tells the gang-banger forcefully that he assumed Jose’s debt when he appropriated Jose’s stash—and he’s now two weeks behind in the vig. He smacks him around to reinforce his point. Then he smiles: “You can make up the vig, and make yourself more money, if you buy the rest of the s**t and distribute it. I’ll even make sure nobody interferes with your operation in this neighborhood.” The gang-banger, grateful for his life, accepts.

Vinny’s now making even more money. He kicks a nice piece of it upstairs to his crew chief. In turn, the crew chief passes a cut to his capo, who shares his piece with the Don. Pretty soon, that whole East Harlem operation, and everyone in it, is looking very good to the Don. But the Don’s not dumb—he has a good idea where the money originates. He hears about a drug bust that netted some members of a Jamaican posse in Brooklyn. He mentions to his capos, “Hey, it’s a real good thing that we have a ban on selling drugs in our borgata, and a death penalty for violators. Otherwise we’d wind up like them no-good, undisciplined mulinians over there.” The capos pass the word on down. Vinny’s crew chief, who knows what’s going on, says to Vinny, “Uh, by the way, you ain’t sellin’ drugs, are you?” “Me?” replies Vinny, indignantly. “Sellin’ f*****’ s**t to a buncha lowlifes on the street? Not on your f*****’ life!” Vinny told the literal truth: he’s not actually selling drugs on the street—he’s just wholesaling drugs to the guys who are selling them. As far as he’s concerned, he’s not violating the family’s ban on “selling drugs.” His crew chief is satisfied—and so’s everyone over him. They’re all getting their piece of Vinny’s action. As long as Vinny’s producing money, they’re content to look the other way. If he gets caught, he knows they’ll try to kill him before he can rat them out. Everyone knows the score.
Posted By: Eilis_McEvilly

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/25/07 02:40 PM

The Irish mafia is similar, yes.
Posted By: GottiMafia

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/26/07 12:58 AM

turnbull great explanation on how the drugs game would work and this thread is a very interesting read keep up the good work
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/26/07 04:56 PM

Thanks! \:\)
Here’s another in the series:
DOES THE MOB CONTROL ALL RACKETS?

No…but they’ll try if they find out about your racket:

The Mafia (and other organized crime gangs), like the Robber Barons of a century ago, believes fervently that competition is bad, monopoly is good. While they guard their territories zealously, they also want to avoid costly, destructive wars. So, they often resort to “cartelization” such as divvying up territories with other mobs families or working out arrangements with other ethnic gangs. But they don’t tolerate freelance operations—if they find freelancers operating in or near their territories.

Let’s say you decide to open a racket that’s in or near Mob territory—gambling, loan sharking, distributing stolen goods, basically any criminal activity that’s not the occasional car theft or burglary. The local Mob guy, who watches his territory like a hawk, will spot you immediately. He’ll give you a couple of months to build up your business. Then he’ll descend on you, and, in menacing (but not yet overtly violent) terms, explain that you’ve committed a mortal sin for which the penalty is death. But, he can see that you didn’t realize the enormity of your crime. So, out of the goodness his heart, he’ll let you continue in business. But you have to pay him a “fine” of $50k for having violated his territory, and you need to come up with a “nut” of $5k/week as your “license” to operate. In return, he’ll “protect” you from interlopers and will keep the cops at bay.

If you’re smart, you’ll apologize profusely, eagerly agree to the terms—and pack your stuff, change your name and move to another state immediately. If you’re greedy and stupid (as are most criminals), you’ll think this is a pretty good deal. Woe is you! You now have to come up with his “nut” every week or, like his loan shark victims, pay 6% vig per week. You also become a potential patsy for his schemes with his police contacts, which all Mob guys maintain. So, your Mob “protector” will, perhaps, murder someone who owes him money and didn’t pay. He knows that the cops he deals with love to close big cases fast—they get glory, promotions, etc. So he’ll go to his friendly police contact and tell him that you did the crime, providing just enough detail to make it convincing without implicating himself. The cops will arrest you and charge you with the crime. You might hire a good lawyer and, after immense time and expense, be cleared. But by that time, your Mob “protector” will already have taken over the business you worked so hard to build up, and couldn’t look after while you were in jail awaiting trial.

Mobsters also regard anyone operating a racket that comes to their attention as fair game—and that applies even if you’re not in or near Mob territory. Suppose you operate a stock-fraud “boiler room” on Wall Street or in a suburban shopping mall. Sooner or later, you’ll defraud someone who knows someone who’s in the Mob—and asks his/her Mob contact for help. The Mob guy, under the guise of “helping” his friend whom you’ve victimized, will call on you and announce that you have a new partner. What are you going to do—call the police? Nope: pay or die.

However, Mob guys want to avoid wars. And they’re not very internationally minded—they are wary of ethnic gangs that they don’t understand and can’t muscle easily. So, if you’re a member of a recent immigrant group (Asian, African, West Indian, Eastern European), and you establish a racket within that ethnic neighborhood, you’d be wise to either recruit a gang of thugs from the neighborhood, or ally yourself with other gangs of your ethnic background. The first time a neighboring Mob guy comes calling, just “show your colors”—muster the troops. He’ll retreat gracefully, or return with a higher-up and negotiate a business deal that might actually work to your advantage--as long as you keep both eyes wide open.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/06/07 04:34 PM

I want to try a different tack in this series:
WAS JOE BONANNO REALLY KIDNAPPED IN 1964?

Not likely.

In one of the most bizarre and widely publicized events in Mob history, Joe Bonanno, one of the most powerful of the Five Family Dons, was kidnapped on a busy New York City street by two thugs who fired a warning shot at his lawyer. He disappeared completely, and was widely rumored to be dead. Then, 19 months later, Bonanno, apparently none the worse for wear, strolled into a Federal courtroom in New York and blandly announced to the judge: “Your Honor, my name is Joseph Bonanno. I hear that you are looking for me.”

Bonanno did not reveal any details of his disappearance until the 1983 publication of his autobiography, “A Man of Honor.” Here’s how he tells the story:
His cousin, Stefano Magaddino, the Don of Buffalo, NY, grew jealous and resentful of Bonanno’s success and popularity in the NYC Mob. Magaddino convinced the Commission that Joe was complicit in a plot by Joe Magliocco, the Profaci Family Don and an ally of Bonanno’s, to whack Carlo Gambino and Tommy Lucchese. The Commission summoned Bonanno to explain himself. When he refused, the Commission ordered him to step down as Don of his family, replacing him with Gaspar DiGregorio, Magaddino’s brother in law. This set off an internal war in the Bonanno Family between those loyal to Joe, and those who bolted to DiGregorio. To avoid potential assassins, Joe took to staying at various secret locations in and around NYC. Meanwhile, he was ordered to appear before a Federal grand jury investigating organized crime.

On October 20, 1964, the eve of his grand jury appearance, Bonanno had dinner in a NYC restaurant with his lawyers. William Maloney, his chief lawyer, invited Joe to spend the night at his Park Avenue apartment so he wouldn’t have to commute back and forth from Long Island. While strolling up Park Avenue, a car roared to the curb and two thugs grabbed Bonanno and forced him into the car. They pegged a warning shot at Maloney when he protested. The kidnapping and the shot drew the police, and the incident got page-one headlines in New York and elsewhere.

According to Bonanno, the thugs were Magaddino’s brother and son. They drove him to an upstate New York farmhouse, where Magaddino held him prisoner. The two cousins daily communed (there is no other word for it) via gestures and riddles in ways that Bonanno describes in such vague terms as to suggest surrealism. Finally, after six weeks, Magaddino set Bonanno free. He even ordered his son and brother to drive Joe anywhere he wanted to be. Bonanno says he ordered them to drop him off in El Paso, TX, the better to plant a hint that he might hole up in Mexico. Instead, he called an ally, who drove him to his home in Tucson, AZ. There Joe hid, grew a beard, bought old clothes and a cane, and shuffled around like a homeless man, eventually returning to NYC, where he did the same. He finally emerged, clean shaven and well dressed, in the Federal courtroom on May 17, 1966—19 months after the “kidnapping.”

In a word: this story stinks. If Bonanno had been hiding out at various NYC locales to avoid assassins, why would he suddenly decide to have a very public dinner in a very public restaurant with his lawyers, then take a very public stroll up a very busy street? How did Magaddino find out about his itinerary? If Magaddino had the wherewithal to get his brother and son close enough to “kidnap” Bonanno, whey didn’t they just shoot him in the street—thereby instantly solving Magaddino’s, DiGregorio’s and the Commission’s problem, and sending an unmistakable message to the remaining Bonanno loyalists: “The king is dead, long live the king”? What possible benefit could Magaddino have derived from kidnapping his cousin, holding him for six weeks—and then letting him go, presumably to cause him yet more trouble?

And, how very convenient that Magaddino, Bonanno’s mortal enemy, managed to “kidnap” him just hours before his scheduled appearance before a grand jury investigation organized crime. Gosh, what a coincidence!

The most likely story is that Bonanno had himself “kidnapped” by two loyalists in order to avoid appearing before the Federal grand jury investigating organized crime. Bonanno undoubtedly would have refused to answer questions, which would have landed him in jail for contempt of court, making him a sitting duck for Mob assassins. The “kidnapping” not only provided him with a ready-made excuse for not appearing before the grand jury, it also allowed him to continue to take it on the lam without appearing cowardly to the bulk of his remaining loyalists. The dinner with the lawyers set him up with an ironclad alibi: the next day, Maloney, his chief lawyer, would be able to face the judge and say, “Your Honor, my client had every intention of appearing before this august body. But, as Your Honor saw in the police report, and read in the newspapers, he was kidnapped by persons unknown and could not be here.” Faced with an eyewitness account from a member of the bar, the judge would be reluctant to issue a bench warrant charging Bonanno with being a fugitive from justice—thus keeping the FBI off Joe’s back and freeing him to wait until the grand jury’s term expired.

Bonanno cleverly won the battle, but he lost the war. His long absence left leadership of what remained of his family in the doubtful hands of his son Salvatore (Bill). The war continued, and murder and attrition whittled down his people. Bill went to prison on a wire fraud conviction (using an associate’s credit card) and Joe never truly regained control of what remained of his family. The Bonannos and their revolving-door leadership declined to the point that they no longer occupied a seat at the Commission’s table, until a measure of stability was restored by Joey Massino in the Nineties. And look where he ended up! Crime doesn’t pay.
Posted By: DonMichaelCorleone

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/09/07 01:19 PM

Turnbull, I normally agree with everything you say but I must take exception with you saying "doubtful hands" of Bill Bonanno. How could he run a family while having to live up to his fathers expecations, not to mention keeping the secret of JFK's death, being CEO of Microsoft (so it hadn't been started yet, it was still his idea), AND Chief Advising Officer to the President of the United States at the same time. Bill Bonanno was the greatest leader of the family, just read his book, he'll tell you

Its the only book I had to put down and never went back to. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, I wonder where he got his lieing ways from...
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/09/07 02:47 PM



Funny DMC. Did you know that Bill Bonanno and Joe Pistone collaborated on a fictional mob book a few years back called THE GOOD GUYS ?

How those 2 egos fit in the same room to write the same book, I'll never know.
Posted By: DonMichaelCorleone

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/09/07 03:08 PM

I did not know that, but both of their real life books were fiction enough......their fiction books must be what? Harry Potter?
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/09/07 03:24 PM

You really wanna laugh ? It was the most entertaining book either one of them ever had a hand in. It's set in New York in the summer of 1985 and it's completely fictional. Pretty good.
Posted By: DonMichaelCorleone

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/09/07 03:26 PM

Entertaining good or entertaining as in how bad it is?

Donnie Brasco was a good book but he got carried away at times, he's Joe Pistone not Ken Shamrock..
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/09/07 03:31 PM

It was pretty good, then again, my expectations were low.
Posted By: Buttmunker

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/13/07 06:40 PM

if the RICO act had been in place during Godfather, Part II, not even BUFFAS woulda helped Michael Corleone.
Posted By: DonMichaelCorleone

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/13/07 10:31 PM

 Originally Posted By: Buttmunker
if the RICO act had been in place during Godfather, Part II, not even BUFFAS woulda helped Michael Corleone.


RICO was passed in 1970 ;\)
Posted By: SC

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/13/07 10:41 PM

 Originally Posted By: DonMichaelCorleone
 Originally Posted By: Buttmunker
if the RICO act had been in place during Godfather, Part II, not even BUFFAS woulda helped Michael Corleone.


RICO was passed in 1970 ;\)


Part II was supposed to have taken place in 1958-59.
Posted By: DonMichaelCorleone

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/13/07 10:59 PM

 Originally Posted By: SC
 Originally Posted By: DonMichaelCorleone
 Originally Posted By: Buttmunker
if the RICO act had been in place during Godfather, Part II, not even BUFFAS woulda helped Michael Corleone.


RICO was passed in 1970 ;\)


Part II was supposed to have taken place in 1958-59.


oh yeah, I got the date of production confused
Posted By: olivant

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/14/07 12:09 AM

I don't understand this RICO stuff. What does a black-haired Puerto Rican guy in a pompadour wearing a powderblue tux over a ruffled shirt have to do with organized crime?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/03/07 02:24 PM

Here’s another in the series:

OUR GREED KEEPS THE MOB GOING

It’s an axiom that, as long as we want to do drugs, gamble illegally, patronize prostitutes, buy cut-rate goods that fell off the back of trucks, etc., Organized Crime will be right there to satisfy our illicit needs. But that’s just a start: how about when our own greed steers us right into the Mob’s hands? Here’s a not-atypical example:

Like most people, you hate to pay income taxes. And, you’re in a position to avoid paying your “fair share": You’re a Sky Cap, waiter or waitresses, a taxi driver who gets most of your income in tips; or you own a retail business and take in a lot of cash; or you’re a shrink or a chiropractor with many uninsured patients who pay in currency, rather than by check or credit card. Since cash is largely untraceable, you can hide a good part of your income if you’re not too greedy (a big “if”). But that’s only half the battle. Your hidden income can’t work for you if you stuff it in a mattress or hide it in a shoebox. And you can’t open a bank or brokerage account because your deposits and earnings will be reported to the government. What to do?

Sooner or later, greedy-you will find the local Mobbed-up loan shark. He’s got a lot of money on the street earning 6% weekly vig. So, you approach him about adding the hundred grand you’ve hidden from the government over the past decade to his capital. The Mob guy’s interested: He’ll give you 1% on your money, every week. Greedy-you balks: How come you’re getting only 1% when he gets 6%? The Mob guy explains, patiently, that he’s taking all the risks, doing all the accounting, breaking all the kneecaps, for his 6%. “All you gotta do for your 1% is to show up on this street corner every Friday at 11 to collect it,” he says.

Sounds like a plan to you. But you’re still wary. So you give him half your wad--$50k—to see what happens. You show up at 11 the next Friday—and there he is, handing over your $500 vig that you didn’t lift a finger to earn. He does it again the next week, and the week after that. This is pretty good, you think: If you can get $500 a week for doing nothing, $1,000 a week would be twice as good. So you hand over your other $50k. Now the Mob guy’s got your entire $100k.

You show up the next Friday, licking your chops for your unearned $1k. But your Mob “pal” isn’t there. Nor is he there the next week—or the week after that. Your sphincter is imploding. You search for him high and low. Finally, you locate him in his social club.

“Where’s my f*****g vig?” you shout. The Mob guy gives you the fish-eye. “What f****g vig?” he shouts back. “Lissen, pal, I don’t know you from a hole in the ground, or where you’re comin’ from…but you better get your ass outta here quick before you make me sore!” All the other espresso-sippers are starting to stir in their chairs. Discretion being the better part of valor, you split.

You’re in a bind. You can’t sue the guy because you never got a receipt for your $100k or a contract that specified interest payments. Complain to law enforcement?—all you’ll accomplish is to identify yourself for what you are: a felon who violated federal, state and local income tax statutes. And you can’t go after the Mob guy personally unless you get a gun, and a will.

You begin to realize that you’ve been screwed. And, if you’ve got any sense left to you, you’ll realize who screwed you: You, through your own greed.
Posted By: Longneck

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/26/07 02:20 AM

So...uh....anyone want to give me 100K nand earn 1% interest each week?
Posted By: olivant

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/26/07 02:51 AM

 Originally Posted By: olivant
I don't understand this RICO stuff. What does a black-haired Puerto Rican guy in a pompadour wearing a powderblue tux over a ruffled shirt have to do with organized crime?


Either noone got my joke or noone cares!
Posted By: whisper

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/08/07 02:00 AM

WOW!!!I just found this thread and can i say,Turnbull i feel so much more enlightened.My half brothers dad is in the Melbourne Mafia here in Australia.Im not sure what his rank is but i know he's a "shit kicker"(not sure if you have that saying in the states)Anyway i remember mom telling me stories about him and i was quite intrigued and even thought about asking him to get me involved once i was older.Eventually i grew out of that and i knew the mafia wasn't all it was cracked up to be.But reading this thread has opened up my eyes even more.So thanks again.
Posted By: goombah

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/30/07 02:43 PM

Here's a myth that I think is laughable:

JOHN GOTTI WAS RAILROADED AND SHOULD HAVE NEVER GONE TO PRISON

This has not been alleged on these boards, but I know a few people who actually believe that John Gotti was innocent. In fact, there's a fool on a local radio station who has been claiming it to be true for 10+ years. The trouble is that this radio personality has been spewing the same nonsensical allegations on a 50,000 watt station during drive time.

The state and federal government tried for years to put John Gotti away. Before he planned to whack Big Paul, Gotti's crew was dealing heroin, which was punishable by death according to Castellano. Big Paul referred to selling drugs as a violations of his first commandment: "If you deal, you die." Gotti's brother, Quack-Quack Ruggierio, and his crew were on wiretaps dealing heroin. John Gotti managed to keep his name away from law enforcement for the drug trafficking, but informants told cops that the crew would not be dealing without John's authorization.

Then the myth was magnified in the three trials when Gotti was found not guilty. Gotti, who had already done a prison stint for murder, was regarded by some as a persecuted target. It was not known until much later, but there was one juror who was bought to return a not guilty verdict in at least one case. Of course, it did not hurt that Gotti had a very talented and intense attorney named Bruce Cutler, who routinely destroyed the credibility of witnesses against Gotti. In another trial, it was obvious that the star witness was intimidated to recant his original charges. The witness testified that he "forgot" who beat him and that he would not testify against John Gotti. The case was dismissed.

Gotti, more than what nearly all previous mobsters, did not shy away from the spotlight. In part to feed his massive ego, he worked on projecting and polishing his public persona much in the same manner a political candidate would. He appeared on Time magazine's cover, which is something that Carlo Gambino or Trafficante would have never even considered. Another example is Gotti would hold an extravagant 4th of July fireworks display near his mob headquarters, launching his own fireworks and hosting illegal gambling games in the neighborhood.

Gotti also had a bit of luck, which helped him beat the allegations against him in the first three trials. He had a police informant in the intelligence division who fed Gotti information. The mole, detective William Piest, was injured off the job and lost his leg in a 1984 car accident. Piest had a cousin who fed information to a mobster named George Helbig, who was in regular contact with Gotti. Piest helped blow surveillance bugs and helped the mob steal a handwritten indictment against Quack Quack. Piest serviced Gotti for approximately five years and earned $500 per week for his information.

Probably the biggest reason that some say Gotti was innocent because it was the testimony of another mobster, Sammy "the Bull" Gravano, that sent Gotti away for good. Sammy admitted to killing 19 men, including his own brother-in-law. But Sammy led the government through a step-by-step account of how Gotti planned and then executed the assassination of Paul Castellano and his bodyguard Tommy Bilotti. Gravano also corroborated murders that Gotti ordered, which were long suspected by the FBI. No doubt, Sammy was a rat. But the actions of Gravano do not lessen or negate the crimes that Gotti committed. I think that if the roles were reversed (Sammy was the Don & Gotti was the Underboss), then the government would have gladly taken the testimony to put away the Don of the most powerful crime family. I have never bought the argument that the feds were out to get Gotti, as much as they were out to get the head of Gambino Family, who just happened to be Gotti.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/01/07 06:51 PM

Thanks for contributing an entry, Goombah. \:\) And I agree with you completely: Gotti was not railroaded. He was guilty as charged. The authorities did go after him time after time--but that was because he committed crime after crime, and flung it in people's faces through his lunatic obsession with fame and publicity.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/03/07 01:37 AM

BUGSY SIEGEL (AND/OR CHARLIE LUCIANO, MEYER LANSKY, ALBERT ANASTASIA) FOUNDED (OR WERE MEMBERS OF) “MURDER INC.”

Short answer: No, but they did have some business with Murder Inc. Longer answer follows:

Jewish gangsters dominated urban rackets in the Twenties. But by the early Thirties, even before Prohibition was repealed, some of the big shots like the Bronfmans, Louis Rosenstiehl and Moe Annenberg went legit. Others, like Bugsy Siegel, Meyer Lansky, Moe Dalitz and Abner (Longy) Zwillman, transitioned to running big-time gambling. The rest fought ceaselessly for a share of the remaining rackets.

Brooklyn NY was one such scene of endless gang wars in the early Thirties. Among the winners were a mob that included Abraham (Kid Twist) Reles, Allie (Tick-Tock) Tannenbaum, Harry (Pittsburgh Phil) Strauss, Martin (Buggsy) Goldstein and Mendy Weiss. They hung out at Midnight Rose’s candy store on the corner of Saratoga and Livonia Avenues in the Brownsville neighborhood of Brooklyn (where I worked as an adolescent; neither I nor the candy store’s owners were aware of its shady past). They were basically small-timers, whose distinguishing feature was their utter ruthlessness, operating in a big population--Brownsville was New York’s most densely populated neighborhood, cramming 290,000 people into 1.5 square miles.

Enter Louis (Lepke) Buchalter:

Lepke, whose biography appears here:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...=true#Post20536
2

was the biggest gangster in America in the mid and late Thirties—maybe the biggest in history. He needed an army to protect and enforce his Garment Center-based criminal empire. His partner, Jacob (Gurrah) Shapiro, born in Russia, grew up in Brownsville. They reached out for the Midnight Rose crowd (who were dubbed “Murder Inc.” by the press years later).

Lepke, a sharp businessman as well as a vicious thug, put them on salary rather than pay them per hit. The arrangement enabled them to pursue their own rackets when they weren’t doing violence for Lepke. And it tied them to Lepke, keeping them from his rivals.

Lepke also made alliances with Mafiosi. He cut Charlie Luciano into some of his Garment Center action; Luciano in turn doled out portions of his share to other Families, which cemented their loyalty to him. Lepke also had an arrangement with Albert Anastasia, an underboss in Vincent Mangano’s family whose turf was the Ocean Hill neighborhood to the north of Brownsville. Albert A shared in some of Murder Inc.’s revenues. In return, he supplied Mafia shooters (Harry “Happy” Maione, Frank “the Dasher” Abbandando, Louis Capone) and was one of their biggest customers. Another customer was Luciano: when he decided to whack Dutch Shultz before he could assassinate special prosecutor Thomas E. Dewey, Lucky gave the contract to Murder Inc. A hit squad headed by Charles “The Bug” Workman nailed Shultz in a Newark, NJ restaurant. So, Lucky and Albert A did business with Murder Inc., but did not found, run, or belong to the gang.

Nor did Lansky and Siegel. That myth stems from their closeness to Luciano. When Lucky ended the Castellemmarese War of 1930-31 by whacking the “Moustache Petes” Joe Masseria and Salvatore Maranzano, he reached for his boyhood chum Lansky to arrange the murders. Siegel and Anastasia were among the Masseria shooters (Joe Adonis may have been the third). Samuel (Red) Levine headed the squad that did in Maranzano. But those assassinations had nothing to do with Murder Inc.—they went down in 1931, years before Lepke formed the Brownsville gang in to Murder Inc.

Siegel’s brush with Murder Inc. occurred in 1939 when Harry (Big Greenie) Greenberg, a dimwitted NYC thug, tried to rat out several mob big shots and fled to the West Coast to escape them. Siegel was the Commission’s point man on the Coast. Luciano and Adonis ordered him to eliminate Greenie. They sent him two shooters: Tick-Tock Tannenbaum and Frankie (Mr. Gray) Carbo, who later ran the fight rackets for the Mafia in NYC. Bugsy planned the hit, found Greenie and drove the getaway car. Tick-Tock and Mr. Gray were the triggermen.

Early in 1940, Bill O’Dwyer, the Brooklyn DA, and his assistant, Burton Turkus, picked up Kid Twist, Tick-Tock and several other Murder Inc. killers and charged them with several assassinations. They turned rat. One of the hits they ratted out was Greenie’s. The Los Angeles DA arrested and indicted Siegel for the crime. But O’Dwyer refused to let Tannenbaum testify, fearing (no doubt correctly) that he’d never make it back from California alive. Then Twist, who was being held in “protective custody” in a Coney Island hotel, “jumped or fell” from a sixth-floor window while being “guarded” by eleven policemen—five of whom were in the room with him at the time of the “accident” (earning Twist the timeless sobriquet, "the canary who could sing but couldn't fly"). With no witnesses, the case against Siegel evaporated. He high-tailed it to Vegas, got interested in the hotel business, and the rest, as they say, is history.

Twist had a photographic memory. Before his “accident,” he gave Turkus’s stenographers 5,000 pages of notes, and resolved more than 50 murders—five of which involved Lepke. That info enabled Dewey to convict Lepke and send him to the chair in 1944—the only mob boss executed by The Law instead of by his peers.
Posted By: Eddie_The_Cag

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/20/07 01:47 AM

 Originally Posted By: Don Cardi

And if I might add something, when you get made, you may not be lucky enough to be ordered to kill someone that you don't know. Many times, to test one's loyalty, the boss will order you to kill someone that you've grown very close to in the life, even if he's your best friend!



While reading the book Mobfather, which details some of the shenanigans of the former Scarfo organization in Philly/Jersey, I came across an account of a fellow who was forced to betray his best friend in the manner that Don Cardi mentioned above.

And after having done this, his fellow gangsters came into the restaurant that he operated, stuck a quarter in the jukebox, and played the old Elton John song, That's What Friends Are For as a sort of practical joke...

I have a pretty sick sense of humor, I guess... because this made me laugh!

\:\/ \:\/ \:\/
Posted By: Longneck

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/10/07 11:25 PM

I read a little about the Philly fam and some guys borrowed a whole bunch of money from this loanshark, then used it to pay the guy to kill him.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/10/07 11:30 PM

 Originally Posted By: Longneck
I read a little about the Philly fam and some guys borrowed a whole bunch of money from this loanshark, then used it to pay the guy to kill him.


That's what the educated call irony.
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/11/07 12:19 PM

 Originally Posted By: Longneck
I read a little about the Philly fam and some guys borrowed a whole bunch of money from this loanshark, then used it to pay the guy to kill him.


A similar thing happened in an episode of The Sopranos. I believe that one of the guys borrows money from Vito Spat because he knows Vito is going to get whacked and he won't have to pay it back. He even agrees to paying a higher vig!

These guys will do anything to get the edge and beat someone for money. They have no conscience, they have no souls!
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/11/07 06:55 PM

IN JUSTICE, AS IN EVERYTHING ELSE, MONEY TALKS!

Despite many high-profile Mafia prosecutions, Mob guys enjoy the best legal protection in America: money. Even in the US, which prides itself on being a nation of “laws, not men,” money—not right or wrong--assures “justice.” Contrast how a poor defendant is treated in our system, vs. a Mob guy or anyone with a lot of money:

Let’s say you’ve been arrested for killing someone: a drug deal gone bad, a gambling debt, a personal insult…whatever. The charge against you is Murder in the Second Degree. If you’re like 95% of felony defendants, you don’t have the money to make bail or to hire a criminal lawyer (few attorneys specialize in criminal law precisely because most criminal defendants can’t afford to pay them). The court will assign you a Public Defender (PD): probably a young, recent graduate of law school gaining experience and contacts before embarking on a career with a law firm or corporation, who’s paid by the court system to represent indigent defendants. Your PD will spend about 10 minutes reviewing the paperwork in your case. Then, in the only visit to your jail cell, your PD will try to convince you to waive your right to trial and plead guilty to a lesser offense in return for a shorter sentence. The only time the PD will advise you to plead not guilty is if there’s a hole in your case big enough to drive a truck through: you have three witnesses who’ll swear that you were a thousand miles away when the crime was committed; or the arresting officer subsequently was dismissed from the force for falsifying evidence in cases like yours, or something equally obvious. And there’s almost no way the PD will bring your case to trial, even if the PD thinks that you might be innocent, or that a jury could be convinced to bring in a “not guilty” verdict.

Why? It’s not because PD’s are bad people. To the contrary: they’re usually young enough not to have developed that hard shell of cynicism that attaches to so may experienced lawyers. It’s because the criminal justice system is stacked against poor defendants:

First, the PD probably is carrying a caseload of at least 150 defendants, many of them charged with serious felonies like yours. All of them deserve the same shot at “justice” as you do, and the PD just doesn’t have time to try all those cases. And even if she or he did, how much attention do you think you’d get from a public servant carrying such a huge caseload? Would you want to be represented by a lawyer with so many distractions?

Second, the figure of merit in the court system is: Clear the calendar! This applies to judges, prosecutors and PD’s. PD’s who bring a lot of cases to trial are clogging the system, and will earn the wrath of prosecutors and judges who’re in a position to do favors for PD’s and their clients.

Third, during the trial the judge is supposed to act as an “impartial arbitrator,” assuring fairness. But when a guilty verdict is brought in, the judge in effect becomes an arm of the prosecution—judges always ask prosecutors what “the People” require as punishment for convicted criminals. The prosecutors in your case know this. So they tell your PD: “Hey, look, we’ve got your guy cold on Murder Two. Penalty is 20 years to life. If your guy makes us go to trial, he will be convicted—no two ways about it. The judge’ll ask us what we want for a sentence. We’ll say life, you’ll plead for ‘leniency’—and the judge’ll give him fifty years. But if you convince your guy to waive his right to trial, we’ll let him plead to Manslaughter Two. The penalty is two-to-ten. We’ll ask for five, you’ll ask for probation, and the judge’ll give him three. Now, what’s it gonna be: fifty years or three years?”

Fourth: While a defendant is “presumed” to be innocent until proven guilty, the reverse is true in the minds of most jurors—especially if you, like many defendants, are nonwhite and have a prior record. People who’ve been arrested or convicted of crimes can be excluded from juries. So, the only brush with the law that most jurors have experienced was to receive a traffic ticket. Their mindset likely will be that you must have done something to make the police arrest you. So, even though the law requires that the prosecution prove you guilty beyond reasonable doubt, the reality is that you and your PD have a truly uphill struggle to convince the jury that you’re not guilty.

Finally, law is a competitive business. Lawyers will bend over backward for out-of-court settlements in civil matters, and plea-bargains in criminal cases. But once a case goes to trial, the issue isn’t innocence or guilt, or even right or wrong: it’s who wins and who loses. And lawyers hate to lose—it makes them look bad, especially when they move on to high-paying positions in law firms and corporations. Prosecutors (who also are mostly young, recent law school grads) that lose trials have an out when they interview for “real” jobs: “Aah, the bleeding-heart judge let that defendant off…aah, stupid cops screwed up the evidence.” PD’s have no such outs with interviewers. It’s far better for a PD to tell an interviewer: “During my two years as a PD, I represented nearly a thousand defendants, and I got reduced sentences for all of them” than to say, “I brought more than 200 cases to trial, and won acquittals in 25% of them.” A 25% acquittal rate would be astoundingly good, given the odds against the kinds of poor defendants PDs represent. But law firms and corporations seldom litigate cases; and when they do, they hire outside counsel. The interviewer hearing that likely would think: “What the hell’s wrong with this person, bringing all those s**theels to trial? Never heard of a plea bargain? With that kind of poor judgment, there’s no way I’m letting him/her near my clients!”

But if you have money—plenty of money—the odds shift dramatically in your favor, even if you’re a Mob guy. Now you can hire a “superlawyer” like Bruce Cutler, Gerald Shargel, Barry Slotnick, Ron Kuby or Albert Krieger. Attention isn’t an issue because, at $600 an hour and up, they’ll spend all the time in the world on your case. They have political and judicial clout up the wazoo, so they’ll invariably work out a bail figure that you can afford.
Prosecutors are afraid of their fearsome reputations, so if they offer you a plea-bargain, you can bet it’ll be on better terms than if you were poor. Judges, too, are afraid of your superlawyers. They know that, even if you’re found guilty, you’ll appeal. Then your lawyers will use your money to hire an army of legal scholars to pore over every world of the trial transcript, looking for “reversible errors”: mistakes the judge may have made during the trial that could result in an appeals court overturning your conviction. Judges hate to be reversed on appeal: it makes them look bad and lessens their chances for elevation to a higher court. So, during the trial, the judge will bend over backward to rule in your favor—and might even be eager to declare a mistrial or a summary dismissal to avoid problems with an appellate court down the line. And sometimes, the prosecutors will be relieved: it spares them the humiliation of being shown up by “real” lawyers.

And, finally, even if you’re found guilty and lose your appeals, your superlawyers will keep plugging for you—filing motions for new trials, working their political mojo on the Governor or the President for clemency or executive pardon—as long as your money holds out. You’ll get the best “justice” that money can buy.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 12/30/07 01:50 AM

Here's a new entry in this series:

AVOIDING TAX EVASION CHARGES

Income tax evasion has put more mobsters away for more years than RICO and drugs combined. It’s easy: the Feds don’t have to prove that you made your money through crime—all they have to do is to show that you’re living beyond your means. Even a weak tax evasion case has a good chance of bringing in a conviction. While some jurors might have some empathy for the defendant, they all think of themselves as “tax drones.” So, if the prosecutor points to the defendant and tells the jurors, “The reason you’re paying high taxes is because guys like him are cheating on theirs…” the jurors are ready to believe him.

Mafia guys are slam-dunk prospects for tax evasion. They’re all greedy, and they regard paying taxes on the same level as being cuckolded. Aniello (Mr. Neil) Dellacroce, the feared and respected Gambino caporegime, went away for five years because he lost $100k in a Puerto Rican casino at a time when he declared income of only $10k on his tax return. He was still in prison when Carlo Gambino was on his deathbed, which probably was why Gambino named Paul Castellano, rather than Mr. Neil, as his heir.

But, if a mob guy is smart and careful (big ifs), he can avoid getting nailed on tax evasion. Here’s now:

Let’s say you’re a captain in a NYC mob family. Your main source of income is an electrical wholesale firm that actually sells electrical supplies. But the supplies are most often stolen from others and sold to mob-connected contractors. It’s also a front for your loansharking, fencing and drug operations, which your subordinates operate for you at careful arms-length. You earn between $3 million and $5 million annually, all of it illegal. You’re smart enough to know that you need to live modestly and inconspicuously. You live in the same Brooklyn home you occupied when you started out. It’s now worth about $550k--modest by NYC standards. You could have paid it off years ago. But, to bolster the fiction that you’re just a workin’ stiff, you’ve taken out second mortgages to pay for your kids’ colleges. You drive a three-year-old Cad, your wife a four-year-old Lexus. You both wear off-the-rack clothes and costume jewelry.

Your accountant tells you that, to maintain that lifestyle and keep the Internal Revenue Service off your back, you need to show and pay taxes on $90k annual household income. So you arrange for the associate who’s the nominal “owner” of your electrical wholesale business to put you and the Mrs. on his payroll—you as a “salesman” at $50k/yr., she as a “bookkeeper” at $40k. You pay your taxes scrupulously.

Now, you aren’t busting your coglioni and putting your life at risk in the mob just to live like a wage-slave cafone. How do you enjoy your money without attracting the IRS?

It seems that the electrical firm (meaning you) owns a $10 million “retreat” in Glen Cove, Long Island—right on the Sound, complete with 60-foot yacht. The firm lists it as a “guest house and entertainment center” for wooing clients, and as a “rest and recreation” facility for employees. To maintain the façade, part of the home’s basement is equipped as a “showroom” with displays of electrical equipment that the firm sells. A smaller “showroom” space is laid out on the boat. You and your wife spend a lot of time there because you’re the firm’s “top salesman.” You meet with your associates at the Glen Cove house and list them as “clients” in your business logbook.

You and your wife also own Armani suits, Givinchy gowns, Bally and Jimmy Choo shoes, Cartier jewelry, Louis Vuitton luggage, etc. But there are no sales receipts in your name. They’re stored at your non-mobbed-up cousin’s home in a modest neighborhood in Queens. Anytime you and the Mrs. go out on the town (often), you and she visit the cousin’s place to get dressed and decked out. The cousin calls a limo for you, which pulls into his garage to avoid surveillance. You and your wife jump inside and hunker down behind the tinted windows. You pay for everything in cash. When you travel to Paris on vacation, you fly Tourist class and reserve a room in a modest pension. But a Family associate in Naples secretly booked you into the Ritz under phony names, using phony Italian passports, and has made reservations for you in all the Michelin 3-star restaurants, where you pay cash. For your jaunts around France, you rent a chauffeured limo, using the phony passport as I.D, when required. It’s all prepaid—in cash.

Now, the NYC police and the FBI know good and well that you’re a capo in a mob family, and have a pretty good idea of how you’re earning your money. But, like all government employees, they don’t want to work any harder than necessary to earn their paychecks. You’ve hidden your criminal activities and your spending well enough so that it won’t be easy for them to gather up enough evidence and witnesses to bring you to trial. With the new priority for tracking down terrorists, law enforcement has a good excuse not to spend a lot of time, money and personnel trying to convict you—especially since there are plenty enough dumb mobsters who are easy pickings compared with you.

So they take the lazy-cops’ out—turn the investigation over to the IRS to see if they can nail you for tax evasion. But IRS investigators don’t want to work any harder than their law enforcement brethren. The IRS clerk who gets your case is looking for a slam-dunk—and there isn’t one in your case because she finds that you’ve filed returns and paid taxes punctiliously every year. She kicks your file back to her supervisor, who hands it to an investigator. He’s got a huge caseload because the Administration has been in a budget-cutting mode and no taxpayers—and their Congressmen—are anxious to see funding restored to the IRS.

About two years after getting your file, the IRS investigator finally picks it up and drives out to look at your Brooklyn home. One glance tells him what your accountant told you: yours is a $90k income home—and you’ve been paying taxes on $90k every year. He heads for the Glen Cove “business retreat” listed as the electrical wholesale firm’s property, rings the doorbell, shows his badge, and asks the caretaker if he can look around the property. You’ve already instructed the caretaker to let him in. The investigator sees the showrooms in the basement and on the boat, and the business cards and sales literature you’ve carefully planted in other spaces. He suspects it’s a front, but he can’t prove it—easily. Of course the IRS could put serious resources into checking out your “employer” in surveilling the Glen Cove mansion, looking at your travels abroad, etc. But that costs time and money—and anyway, since law enforcement wasn’t willing to do it, why should they? So, their conclusion is, “insufficient evidence for prosecution.”

Sooner or later, your own greed is going to trip you up. But until then, as Jackie Brown, the gun dealer in “The Friends of Eddie Coyle” said: “It’s a great life—as long as you don’t weaken.”
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/05/08 01:47 AM

DID THE MAFIA BLACKMAIL J. EDGAR HOOVER?

Almost certainly not. But the origin of this durable myth is worth exploring:

According to legend, the omnipotent FBI Director was gay, and Meyer Lansky or some other Mob big shot had a photo of him in full drag (!!) that he used to blackmail Hoover into keeping hands-off organized crime.

Rumors of Hoover being gay surfaced during his lifetime and afterward because he never married, and shared his home with his second-in-command, Clyde Tolson. Since his death, respected, competent authors, who had access to archives and interviewed Hoover associates in the FBI, have published several bios. Naturally they looked for evidence of Hoover being gay—but found none. That’s not to say that Hoover wasn’t gay—it just means they couldn’t prove it. So, if Hoover had been homosexual, he obviously hid it pretty well. And, given his prominence, he’d never have been so careless as to dress up in drag, and be photographed.

So, why did the FBI basically ignore organized crime until the Valachi hearings in 1962 forced them to sit up and pay notice? The most likely explanation is that Hoover, who worked day and night to burnish his and the FBI’s reputation as incorruptible gangbusters and ultra-efficient G-men, carefully chose the targets of FBI investigations. He’d been focusing on bank robberies ever since the heyday of Dillinger et al in the Thirties. And Hoover was obsessed with the Communist Party USA. (The joke was that there were more FBI agents and informants in the CPUSA than real Commies, and if they ever dropped out and stopped paying dues, the Party would collapse.) These were high-visibility, high-glamour activities, and left little time or manpower to infiltrate the Mob. What’s more, unlike Mafiosi, Commies didn’t have the money or influence to bribe or otherwise corrupt FBI agents.

Another alleged source of Hoover’s “connection” to organized crime is that Hoover was an avid horse-player. Hoover often visited racetracks and bet on races. He probably got tips from FBI agents on fixed races, and he probably knew without asking that the tips came from underworld figures whom the agents were working with. But Hoover was too discrete to be a big bettor, much less to bet with bookies. And the fact that his tips came from criminals did not necessarily make a bond between Hoover and the Mafia.

Hoover’s métier was collecting dirt on politicians, celebrities and civil rights and other civic leaders. He could have used this dirt to make himself far more powerful in the political arena than he was. But he was only interested in using it to hold onto his job, which is why President after President kept him on as FBI Director long past the statutory retirement age. His knowledge of Kennedy dalliances, for example, led JFK to reappoint him, and to bypass his nominal boss, Attorney General Robert Kennedy. He was the ultimate bureaucrat
Posted By: goombah

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/06/08 02:49 PM

MYTH: The Mafia carried out the assassination of President John Kennedy

The circumstances surrounding the death of JFK is arguably the most controversial, debatable, and mysterious crimes of the 20th century. I honestly think the truth is forever lost and that there will be doubts to any conspiracy theory, as well as to the official version as described in The Warren Report. One of the best pieces of evidence that could have helped shed some light, if not perhaps solve the crime, was President Kennedy’s brain. The fatal headshot, as shown in the Zapruder film, blasted a good portion of Kennedy’s upper scalp/head away. But not having JFK’s brain to examine (reports are that it was lost) prevents researchers from determining the direction from which the fatal shot came.

If the Mafia was involved in the assassination, obviously the orders would have been come from the highest leaders at that time: Carlos Marcello, Jimmy Hoffa, Sam Giancana, and Santos Trafficante Jr. Obviously, none of these individuals would have had a hand in the actual shooting. The order would then be given to one or more mobsters who were completely trustworthy, which is an oxymoron IMO. It is one thing for a button to keep quiet about whacking a guy for not paying his weekly vig, but it’s quite another to plan the murder of the leader of the free world. I think it’s completely unrealistic to expect a group (no matter how small in number) to keep such a juicy secret, especially considering that the plan to kill Kennedy was a success. While not generalizing for all mobsters, we have seen plenty of evidence over the years at how much they like to brag or for those who end up being government rats.

Did the mob have motive to kill JFK? Absolutely. Bobby Kennedy, John’s younger brother, was the Attorney General of the United States at the time. Bobby made a lot of enemies in his organized crime, particularly in his pursuit of Jimmy Hoffa, the Teamsters controversial president, who was alleged to have mob ties. Hoffa went to prison, in part due to RFK. There were millions of Teamster dollars at stake, in which the Mafia most likely had an investment.

Did the mob have the money and influence to carry out the plan? Yes to money and very doubtful as to the influence. It seems darn near impossible for the Mafia to have altered the parade route to Dealy Plaza at the last minute to take that slow turn. While it has been proven that Jack Ruby had mob ties and knew Lee Harvey Oswald before killing him, Oswald was linked more as a possible spy than being a mobster. More importantly, I'm not convinced that the Mob could have created an elaborate plot to set up Oswald to be the "fall guy." And without using the film JFK as too much of an influence for the argument, I think the scope of what was needed to carry out the assassination (and possible cover-up) was far beyond the Mob’s capabilities. The Mob’s power, while great, was confined to smaller pockets throughout the country. The assassination, if The Warren Report is at all to be believed, had ties in Dallas, New Orleans, and Miami. Granted the mob was spread throughout the country in 1963 much more than it is today.

There are a million different theories regarding JFK’s assassination. While the purpose of this thread is to discuss the Mafia, I feel that it is highly unlikely that they were intricately involved in carrying out John F. Kennedy’s murder.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/06/08 04:50 PM

 Originally Posted By: goombah
I honestly think the truth is forever lost and that there will be doubts to any conspiracy theory, as well as to the official version as described in The Warren Report.

Absolutely right. We'll never learn the truth. It's too late.

 Quote:
It is one thing for a button to keep quiet about whacking a guy for not paying his weekly vig, but it’s quite another to plan the murder of the leader of the free world. I think it’s completely unrealistic to expect a group (no matter how small in number) to keep such a juicy secret, especially considering that the plan to kill Kennedy was a success.

That's a problem for all conspiracy theories: Who did it? Why'd they do it? How'd they get away with it? And, as you point out, how come no one ever blabbed about it? Not impossible, but very unlikely.

"The Mafia did it" conspiracy hinges on the myth that Sam Giancana was approached by JFK's people (maybe his father) and asked to use his labor connections to help JFK carry Illinois. Supposedly he did that. And Judith Campbell, one of Giancana's girlfriends, was a frequent JFK bedmate. But then, RFK turned on Giancana and his fellow mobsters, hence the assassination.

B.S.! Organized crime had no reason to believe it would get favorable treatment from the Kennedy administration. In 1959, during Senate hearings on organized crime influence over unions, JFK, the chairman, and RFK, the chief counsel, grilled Mob figures relentlessly. RFK purposely humiliated Giancana by likening him to “a little girl.” He also made a lifelong enemy of Hoffa. Not surprisingly, the Teamsters Union, and their Mafia backers, supported Richard Nixon in 1960.

What's more, JFK didn't need Giancana's help to carry Illinois in 1960. A far more powerful man, Chicago Mayor Richard Daley, had promised JFK that he'd bring in Illinois for him by the tried-and-true method of getting people to vote "early and often." Sure enough, Nixon was leading until late in the evening, when a "surge" of JFK votes mysteriously appeared from Cook County voting places, giving JFK a 5,000-vote margin.

The Ruby/Mafia “connection” doesn’t really connect, either. The fact that Ruby was born in Chicago didn't make him an intimate of Giancana. While he was involved in sketchy business ventures and knew plenty of criminals, all his arrests were related to his Dallas club—assaulting patrons and employees, licensing violations, failure to pay various taxes.

As a club owner, Ruby would have had some contact with Mafia operatives who were involved in supplying his and other strip joints with entertainers. Probably some of them visited his club. But, in his only major contact with a Mob-connected figure, Ruby and his brother turned down an offer to get in on a drug deal. The Dallas police questioned Ruby about the deal after the Mob operative was arrested, and were satisfied with Ruby’s account.

Ruby was far closer to the Dallas police, who had life-and-death control over his all-important liquor and cabaret licenses—he had personal contacts with about 50 Dallas cops, whom he frequently comped at his club. His police connections probably got him into headquarters when Oswald was paraded in front of TV cameras on the night of the assassination, and may explain how he entered the basement of the headquarters building and positioned himself close enough to shoot and kill Oswald. But neither the police nor the Mafia put him up to it.

If the Mob did want to kill a Kennedy, why would they choose JFK, when RFK was their nemesis—and leave RFK, who was notoriously ruthless, to wreak vengeance from his position as Attorney General? And finally, why would they use a certifiable nut-case like Oswald as an assassin, when they had plenty of better killers in their own ranks? And why would they have Oswald killed by another certifiable nut-case like Ruby—and leave him behind to tell about it?
Posted By: goombah

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/06/08 05:51 PM

 Originally Posted By: Turnbull

If the Mob did want to kill a Kennedy, why would they choose JFK, when RFK was their nemesis—and leave RFK, who was notoriously ruthless, to wreak vengeance from his position as Attorney General? And finally, why would they use a certifiable nut-case like Oswald as an assassin, when they had plenty of better killers in their own ranks? And why would they have Oswald killed by another certifiable nut-case like Ruby—and leave him behind to tell about it?


Thanks Turnbull. I was going to talk about the 1960 election, particularly the Daley connection, but I didn't feel as if I had enough personal knowledge of the situation to give it justice. You filled in the gaps perfectly - your insight is invaluable. \:\)

One of the so-called conspiracy angles addresses your question of why JFK was killed instead of RFK. As you pointed out, RFK ruffled many more feathers than his brother. But the argument is that by knocking off JFK, the President of the United States, it would get RFK off the mob's back. Kind of akin to the statement by Tom Hagen in The Godfather. "If you get rid of Sollozzo, everyone else will fall into place." Eliminating JFK would reduce, if not eliminate RFK's power, without his brother around. The next successor, LBJ, would most likely appoint his own Attorney General. Or perhaps even in more simple terms, it might have scared Bobby to the point of not wanting to jeopardize his own life since it had been demonstrated that they could get to the president.

Furthermore, if President Kennedy discovered that the mob did kill his brother, then it would have made his focus on organized crime even more than it was. After the Bay of Pigs, JFK promised to splinter the CIA into "a thousand pieces." If the Mafia would have killed JFK's brother, I presume he would have attacked them with the same gusto.

I'm not saying I buy this argument, but I can appreciate the rationale.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/06/08 06:36 PM

 Originally Posted By: goombah
But the argument is that by knocking off JFK, the President of the United States, it would get RFK off the mob's back. Kind of akin to the statement by Tom Hagen in The Godfather. "If you get rid of Sollozzo, everyone else will fall into place." Eliminating JFK would reduce, if not eliminate RFK's power, without his brother around. The next successor, LBJ, would most likely appoint his own Attorney General.

The distinguished historian, Michael Beschloss, sheds some light on that:
In his book on LBJ's first year in office, "Taking Charge," which is based on recently revealed Oval Office tapes that LBJ made, he has transcripts of several conversations between Hoover and LBJ, and RFK and LBJ. As soon as LBJ returned form Dallas, Hoover was in the Oval Office, ingratiating himself with the new President and becoming his exclusive source of info on the assassination. In a later conversation, RFK complains to LBJ that he has no ability to influence Hoover--if he ever did (Hoover had the goods on both Kennedy brothers; see my post on Hoover above).
But to the point of a new Attorney General: LBJ treated Bobby with unfailing courtesy, Bobby treated LBJ with undeviating contempt. The reason was political physics: LBJ was paranoid about Bobby using sentiment for the slain JFK to mount a run for either President or Vice President in '64. Bobby knew that, with his brother gone, all of his White House influence was gone. In the end, RFK solved the problem for LBJ by resigning as Attorney General well before the '64 Convention and running for US Senator from NY instead.

The Federal Government's ability to prosecute Mob figures was limited before passage of the RICO Act: they had to find "interstate" components to Mob crimes, which usually fell under the vague rubric of "racketeering." They could subpoena Mob types, but if the Mob types pled the Fifth (attention: Michael Corleone!), they were practically immune from prosecution. The only other prosecution venue was tax evasion. RICO gave them the power to move against the Mob, and success propelled further prosecutions.
Posted By: SC

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/08/08 07:47 PM

I've been meaning to post this for a long time, but was just reminded of it by watching a documentary about Carlo Gambino.

Everyone reports that Gambino died from a heart attack while he watching a New York Yankees baseball game on tv on October 15, 1976.

The truth of the matter is the Yankees didn't play that day. They had won the A.L. playoffs the day before.

It's a good story, but it ain't true.
Posted By: ledblimp

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/22/08 02:56 PM

The Night of Sicilian Vespers

The myth goes something like this.

On the day that Maranzano was killed on Luciano's orders there was a coordinated house cleaning of all the bosses who had old world style ideas all over the country. All the moustache Petes were killed off. The idea being that Luciano could take over everything without any kind of opposition.

Couple of studies I've read about shows that research into the subject reveals that 2 to 4 guys connected in some way to the mob ( lower level) died on that day nationwide.

Been a few years since I've read The Last Testament of Lucky Luciano but if I remember correctly he claims himself that was a bunch of crap.
Posted By: ledblimp

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/22/08 03:17 PM

Bugsy Seigel Invented Las Vegas

Since Turnbull posted the correct story somewhere else I'm gonna use that. Hope you don't mind TB.


Quote:
Yes, the story of Bugsy Siegel and the Flamingo encapsulates all the BS about the Mob--what people like to write about, and what really happened:

Bugsy Siegel didn't "invent Las Vegas." When he took up residence ca. 1940-41, it was a boomtown with seven hotel/casinos, some of them air-conditioned. The Flamingo had been named by its builder, Billy Wilkerson, the publisher of the Hollywood Reporter, a degenerate gambler whose debts left him unable to finish the hotel. Siegel bought him out and got his NY pals to invest.

The only thing new about the Flamingo was that it was the first Vegas hotel/casino to be built in a "modern," "eastern" style, not the western "corral" style of the El Rancho Vegas or the the other six hotels. Siegel lost his shirt on the
Flamingo. But after he was assassinated, his successors (Gus Greenbaum, Little Moe Sedway, and especially, Moe Dalitz) made a fortune on the Flamingo's model.
Quote:



Just to elaborate a bit on this. The opening night wasn't exactly the dismal failure made out in the movies etc. Although most could'nt make it there were some celebs there ( George Raft, Jimmy Durante, bandleader Xavier Cugat, Rose Marie ) and the place was packed, probably more locals than out of towners. The big mistake was that the hotel itself was not finished so there were'nt any rooms for guests. The house lost big that night and the winners went to other casinos for the night and gambled with the Flamingo winnings there. Biggest rule is to keep the gamblers in the house.


_________________________
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/24/08 05:15 PM

Yes, it's rumored that they lost all of Siegel's money at the hotels where they bedded down for the night.

Siegel reopened the Flamingo that spring and it began to make money. But by then he'd sold thousands of points in the hotel. He made too many enemies to live.
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/26/08 02:02 PM

Originally Posted By: ledblimp
The Night of Sicilian Vespers

The myth goes something like this.

On the day that Maranzano was killed on Luciano's orders there was a coordinated house cleaning of all the bosses who had old world style ideas all over the country.....


Yes, the Sicilian Vespers reference in regards to the United States Mafia is the one above that you mention.

However the "original" Night of the Sicilian Vespers actually took place in Sicily sometime around the 13th century. It was a rebellion / uprise against the French troops allowed to occupy Siciliy by a King that had taken over control of Sicily, supposedly with the backing of the Pope. The locals were forced to pay heavy taxes to the King. At the time Palermo was being inhabited by French troops. Legend has it that the French inahbitants, with the backing of the King, made it a tradition to force newly married Sicilian brides to spend the night with them BEFORE being with their new husbands on their wedding night. The French inahbitants of Sicily, backed by the King, were abusing the Sicilian people in many different ways, especially the woman. On one particular night while the sicilian people were attending an evening prayer service of vespers, a group of French officials came by to join in and began to drink. They then began to fondle the breasts of the women and with that the sicilian men decided to finally defend the honor of their woman. A revolt started throughout Palermo, and the sicilian men killed the French inahbitants. Hence the term : Night of The Sicilian Vespers."


There is an Urban Legend in Sicily that on that evening a Sicilian woman went into one of the churches in Palermo and found her daughter being raped by a French soldier. Legend has it that she then ran out into the streets yelling "Ma fia Ma fia" which translates into "My daughter! My daughter! Some believe that this is where the word "Mafia" might have originated from.
Posted By: ledblimp

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/26/08 02:53 PM



Yes, the Sicilian Vespers reference in regards to the United States Mafia is the one above that you mention.

However the "original" Night of the Sicilian Vespers actually took place in Sicily sometime around the 13th century. It was a rebellion / uprise against the French troops allowed to occupy Siciliy by a King that had taken over control of Sicily, supposedly with the backing of the Pope. The locals were forced to pay heavy taxes to the King. At the time Palermo was being inhabited by French troops. Legend has it that the French inahbitants, with the backing of the King, made it a tradition to force newly married Sicilian brides to spend the night with them BEFORE being with their new husbands on their wedding night. The French inahbitants of Sicily, backed by the King, were abusing the Sicilian people in many different ways, especially the woman. On one particular night while the sicilian people were attending an evening prayer service of vespers, a group of French officials came by to join in and began to drink. They then began to fondle the breasts of the women and with that the sicilian men decided to finally defend the honor of their woman. A revolt started throughout Palermo, and the sicilian men killed the French inahbitants. Hence the term : Night of The Sicilian Vespers."


There is an Urban Legend in Sicily that on that evening a Sicilian woman went into one of the churches in Palermo and found her daughter being raped by a French soldier. Legend has it that she then ran out into the streets yelling "Ma fia Ma fia" which translates into "My daughter! My daughter! Some believe that this is where the word "Mafia" might have originated from.
[/quote]


Remember reading references to the original night but had never seen anything detailed about it. Thanks for the good info!

Ron
Posted By: ledblimp

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/26/08 03:51 PM

You have to "Make your Bones" to be a made member.


Myth.

Consider through the years how many guys have been made and that at it's peak there was supposedly around five thousand members nationwide. That's a whole lotta bodies.

Jerry Angiulo who ran Boston under Ray Patriarca never personally popped anyone. He bought his way in. If I remember correctly his brother, who had to answer to Jerry, was picked up on tape grumbling about it.

Is it better and quicker to show that you're willing to clip someone? I'm sure it is and would probably make it easier to rise up the ladder. I think the biggest quality to get made is to be an earner.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/26/08 06:02 PM

The reality is that a Don makes and breaks his own rules. He can require an associate to whack someone before officially being "made," or not. Since you mentioned Patriarca, Fat Vinny Teresa in his very readable book says that the Boston Mob never officially made anyone--"they just kinda called you to The Office one day and said that was it," or something to that effect.
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/26/08 06:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull

Since you mentioned Patriarca, Fat Vinny Teresa in his very readable book says that the Boston Mob never officially made anyone--"they just kinda called you to The Office one day and said that was it," or something to that effect.



The Vinny Theresa book that you reference is titled "My Life In The Mafia." An excellent read. One of my favorite mob books. A part of it that has always stuck out in my mind was his telling about the horse racing business, the horse tracks, and how the mob would fix races and control certain jockeys and race tracks!
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/26/08 10:13 PM

Lotta good anecdotes and Mob schemes in that book.
DC: Didn't he bad-mouth Sinatra and debunk his Mob connections?
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/27/08 02:30 AM

I don't recall exactly what he said about Sinatra, ( read it a very long time ago) but now that you mention it, it does ring a bell.

And you're right on about the mob schemes revealed in that book.

If I am not mistaken, Teresa's book was only like the second tell all mob book ever written by a former mobster since The Valachi Papers. Am I correct?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/27/08 03:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Don Cardi
If I am not mistaken, Teresa's book was only like the second tell all mob book ever written by a former mobster since The Valachi Papers. Am I correct?

I believe that's true, DC. smile Peter Maas' "Valachi Papers" was published in '68. Teresa's autobio appeared in '73. Martin Gosch's "Last Testament of Lucky Luciano" was published in '75.
Posted By: Tyler_Durden

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/12/08 09:12 AM

I am sorry for hijacking this topic,but i couldn't find no "FAQ thread" so i thought i could ask this here:Is it true that Carmine Persico had once spit a bullet that entered his face?Now,i've read some other things on the internet(a woman once survived a 357 magnum wound in her head,no coma,no brain damage,no nothing)but if it's true,he's gotta be a tough guy....

Kind of makes you laugh about these "I got shot nine times" gangsta rapper types and their exaggerated stories...


Posted By: Ayperi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/13/08 08:12 PM

I read the book about Henry Hill and I want to say called Wiseguy. The movies do make it all look good when in reality it's not. This is a very good topic to post here as people can be led to believe the life is glorified when in actuality it's anything but that.
Posted By: Santino Brasi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/13/08 08:24 PM

Yeah, I love that book: Wiseguy: My Life in a Mafia Family by: Nicholas Peleggi(sp?)
Posted By: Shake

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/22/08 09:50 PM

David Chase, did a great job on the Sopranos in depicting the life of a newly made guy. When Christopher Molitsanti got his button, him and Adriana thought they would be in the fast lane, but as the show goes on, Chase reveals the real struggles of becoming a newly made member. Christopher had to pay for $1000 dinner tabs and was subject to other demoralizing treatment from other members. He had to kick up enough money to take care of his capo, who was Paulie Walnuts and so that his capo can kick up to the Boss. If you're at the bottom, then you're working 100 times harder in trying to earn to keep your capo and boss' pockets fat. Thats how it always was and in ways, the tradition. In the end, its all about the money. The more money you make, the more respect you get.
Posted By: SPWannabe

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/23/08 03:10 PM

DUFF

on page 1, what were you talking about with the K&A gang?

you got it mixed up i think
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/23/08 05:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Tyler_Durden
I am sorry for hijacking this topic,but i couldn't find no "FAQ thread" so i thought i could ask this here:Is it true that Carmine Persico had once spit a bullet that entered his face?Now,i've read some other things on the internet(a woman once survived a 357 magnum wound in her head,no coma,no brain damage,no nothing)but if it's true,he's gotta be a tough guy....

Kind of makes you laugh about these "I got shot nine times" gangsta rapper types and their exaggerated stories...



According to Selwyn Raab, in his authoritative "The Five Families," Persico was one of those who attempted to kill Larry Gallo during the Gallo/Profaci war of 1961-63. In retaliation, Persico was shot from a passing truck (presumably by Gallo). Raab writes, "Bullets grazed his head and several slugs ripped into his left hand and arm....The episode was magnified by his supporters to bolster his reputation for toughness, claiming [emphasis added] that a slug had punctured his jaw, and that he had spat out the bullet."
Posted By: Shake

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/24/08 07:17 PM

"Bonnano: A Godfather's Story" movie offers a very believable case for the JFK assasination. One of my favorite mob flicks.
Posted By: geminitwin

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/01/08 01:56 PM

i saw gaspipes name pop up int his thread. has anybody read the book "Gaspipe"? i was wondering if it was worth the $25.99.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/01/08 04:24 PM

Originally Posted By: geminitwin
i saw gaspipes name pop up int his thread. has anybody read the book "Gaspipe"? i was wondering if it was worth the $25.99.

Here's a link to reviews on Amazon.com. Seems like a worthwhile read:
http://www.amazon.com/Gaspipe-Confession...8059&sr=1-1

BTW: You should post questions on books in the "Mafia Books" thread, where you're more likely to get the answer you're looking for. smile
Posted By: geminitwin

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/02/08 03:26 PM

i think roy demeos son pretty much summed it up in his book For The Sins Of My Father when he said ''on the screen the life of a mafioso is glamourous and exciting. In the real world the gangster is a exhausted middle aged man who comes home at dawn to a disillusioned wife and a dog dish that needs cleaning.the shiny maroon cadillac is the image the frozen body in the trunk is the reality''
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/02/08 06:10 PM

That was a very well written book. Hard to have any sympathy for DeMeo after reading "Murder Machine," but his son almost brought it off.
Posted By: geminitwin

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/03/08 01:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
That was a very well written book. Hard to have any sympathy for DeMeo after reading "Murder Machine," but his son almost brought it off.
your right he was close . i read both books at the same time trying to get both perspectives of his life
Posted By: eddietheplumber

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/06/08 01:18 PM

It is true Roy was a stone cold killer,the book is
quite exagerated told by a guy that was looking at life
in prison,but the cops in their infinite wisdom as also
being just as lazy pinned over 200 murders on Demeos crew,
they figured Roy was dead so what the hell,as for demeo jr.
it was very upsetting to him to read the story of his father
in a book by capeci,being told by a coke head that his father
helped many of times.Same as rise and fall,told to capeci by
sammy and some other snitches,the kids life has been ruined
but his father was quite saavy in the money end of things so
no one in the immediate family longs for a thing,he was a
great earner,just a note,the Gotti bros turned down the
contract to clip Demeo,they feared that faction of the
Gambino family,and it was no secret that the Gotti crew was
next to go after neil passed.
Posted By: geminitwin

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/06/08 04:54 PM

it might not have been 200 murders but the pile of bodies the demeo crew piled up wasn't exagerated. most crews have 1 stone cold killer. that whole original crew anthony joey henry chris and roy were all stone cold killers not to mention the link that roy had to the iceman. no one will ever know how many chopped up bodies anthonys uncle's garbage company bought to fountain ave. i think dominic montiglio exagerated more about his own importance then he did about the demeo crew. he tried to make himself look like more then just ninos collection boy. also the gottis didn't turn down the contract on roy. gene gotti was caught on a wire tap saying how hard it would be to get roy with the army of killers he had with him. castellano also spoke to frankie decicco about killing roy and eventually it was decided nino brought him into the life so he should be the one to take him out of it. although never proven nino was allegedly the one who shot roy and joey and anthony fired the shots behind each ear
Posted By: Moltisanti

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/17/08 05:22 PM

I am currently reading "Excellent Cadavers" and I found an interesting theory about Lucky Luciano. Is there anyone who knows the real story behind his cooperation with the US to end WW II in Italy?
Posted By: DonMichaelCorleone

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/17/08 06:18 PM

How do you like it Moltisanti? I started reading that book and just couldn't get through it, it was interesting but a little confusing and repetitive at times.
Posted By: Moltisanti

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/17/08 06:27 PM

Difficult to stay focussed while reading. Literary a bit poor, too many facts and names that aren't really important.
But it is interesting to see how the mafia infiltrated into the political system and to see how the Sicilian mafia have still got a big influence in the daily life.
If we have to believe the writer, the mafia in Sicily is suffering hard and it will lose importance the coming years. I think he's right to be honest!

Interesting book but I'm hppy I haven't bought it.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/17/08 07:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Moltisanti
I am currently reading "Excellent Cadavers" and I found an interesting theory about Lucky Luciano. Is there anyone who knows the real story behind his cooperation with the US to end WW II in Italy?

After the US entered WWII, the government interned the French luxury liner Normandie, which was docked in NY harbor, and intended to turn it into a troop-carrying ship. A fire broke out when a workman got careless with a torch he was using near a pile of burlap bags. The ship capsized.

The naval commander of the port suspected the cause was "sabotage" by longshoremen of German and Italian extraction--a product of his bigoted imagination. His concern was picked up by Joseph (Socks) Lanza, Mafia boss of the waterfront. He brought it to Meyer Lansky, Luciano's closest pal. Lansky saw an opportunity: if the commander thought sabotage was the cause, why not exploit his fear by cutting a deal--Luciano (serving a 30-year prison term) would use his influence to prevent further sabotage (and strikes) if the government cut him a break. The commander agreed.

Lansky brought the putative deal to Murray Gurfein, a judge who had been special assistant to Thomas E. Dewey when he prosecuted Luciano for "white slavery" (enforced prostitution). Gurfein brought it to Dewey, who agreed. The "sabotage" and strikes stopped. Luciano was transferred to a less-harsh prison. His sentence was commuted in 1946 and he was deported to Italy.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/18/08 06:29 PM

Addendum to above: Lucky convened a Commission meeting in Havana late in '46 and tried to use it to make a comeback. But someon (maybe Vito Genovese) tipped the US government, which leaned on the Cuban government to send him back to Italy.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/18/08 06:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Addendum to above: Lucky convened a Commission meeting in Havana late in '46 and tried to use it to make a comeback. But someon (maybe Vito Genovese) tipped the US government, which leaned on the Cuban government to send him back to Italy.


That was covered in HAVANA NOCTURNE, wasn't it, TB?
Posted By: SC

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/18/08 06:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
After the US entered WWII, the government interned the French luxury liner Normandie, which was docked in NY harbor, and intended to turn it into a troop-carrying ship. A fire broke out when a workman got careless with a torch he was using near a pile of burlap bags. The ship capsized.


There are some who claim the Mob was behind the sinking in order to set up the atmosphere that lead to the Dewey deal.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/18/08 06:56 PM

Originally Posted By: SC
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
After the US entered WWII, the government interned the French luxury liner Normandie, which was docked in NY harbor, and intended to turn it into a troop-carrying ship. A fire broke out when a workman got careless with a torch he was using near a pile of burlap bags. The ship capsized.


There are some who claim the Mob was behind the sinking in order to set up the atmosphere that lead to the Dewey deal.


I'm cynical by nature, so take this for what it's worth: That theory actually makes quite a bit of sense to me.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/19/08 05:19 PM

Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Addendum to above: Lucky convened a Commission meeting in Havana late in '46 and tried to use it to make a comeback. But someon (maybe Vito Genovese) tipped the US government, which leaned on the Cuban government to send him back to Italy.


That was covered in HAVANA NOCTURNE, wasn't it, TB?

The Havana meeting is a matter of record, and all the standard organized crime histories mention it. "Havana Nocturne" (as you know, PB) has the standard photo of Luciano, in gabardine cap, holding a suitcase, and being escorted by military men. Most books say it shows Luciano being escorted out of Cuba, back to Italian exile. "Havana Nocturne" says the photo shows Italian military escorting Luciano to Cuba for the meeting--which I seriously doubt.

The story about Genovese ratting out Luciano's presence in Havana to US authorities was mentioned in one of the books (I've forgotten which), but I haven't read it elsewhere, which is why I said "maybe."
Posted By: Lilo

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/19/08 05:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Addendum to above: Lucky convened a Commission meeting in Havana late in '46 and tried to use it to make a comeback. But someon (maybe Vito Genovese) tipped the US government, which leaned on the Cuban government to send him back to Italy.


That was covered in HAVANA NOCTURNE, wasn't it, TB?

The Havana meeting is a matter of record, and all the standard organized crime histories mention it. "Havana Nocturne" (as you know, PB) has the standard photo of Luciano, in gabardine cap, holding a suitcase, and being escorted by military men. Most books say it shows Luciano being escorted out of Cuba, back to Italian exile. "Havana Nocturne" says the photo shows Italian military escorting Luciano to Cuba for the meeting--which I seriously doubt.

The story about Genovese ratting out Luciano's presence in Havana to US authorities was mentioned in one of the books (I've forgotten which), but I haven't read it elsewhere, which is why I said "maybe."


I first read the Genovese the Rat story in "The Last Testament of Lucky Luciano" by Martin Gosch. My understanding is that there are a lot of errors, omissions and lies in the book but there is also some wheat amidst the chaff so to speak.

That book also claims that the Normandie fire was arranged by Albert Anastasia in order to help spark interest (pun intended) among the Navy and civilian intelligence to use underworld leaders to prevent sabotage or filter out spies.

Supposedly Costello and Lansky arranged it politically so that an inexperienced Lieutenant Commander Charles Haffenden was assigned to the project. Haffenden was then advised to talk to Socks Lanza , who in turn promised co-operation but suggested that if Haffenden really wanted to guarantee peace on the waterfront he had to talk to Charlie Lucky..

Luciano also claims that he seriously assaulted Genovese in Havana so I can't say how accurate ALL of the book really is..
Posted By: RTintera

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 01/31/09 05:31 PM

Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: SC
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
After the US entered WWII, the government interned the French luxury liner Normandie, which was docked in NY harbor, and intended to turn it into a troop-carrying ship. A fire broke out when a workman got careless with a torch he was using near a pile of burlap bags. The ship capsized.


There are some who claim the Mob was behind the sinking in order to set up the atmosphere that lead to the Dewey deal.


I'm cynical by nature, so take this for what it's worth: That theory actually makes quite a bit of sense to me.


Not to pick nits, but it "just" capsized at the dock, rather that actually sink, I think. My question to anyone who knows anything about big ships would be- what about a fire causes a giant steel ship to capsize? i doubt that the fire burned a hole through the hull. Anyone?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 01/31/09 06:56 PM

The fire was very extensive and intense. It capsized from the weight of the water poured on the fire by numerous fireboats from only one side--the seaward side.
Posted By: SC

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 01/31/09 07:22 PM

Originally Posted By: RTintera
Not to pick nits, but it "just" capsized at the dock, rather that actually sink, I think. My question to anyone who knows anything about big ships would be- what about a fire causes a giant steel ship to capsize? i doubt that the fire burned a hole through the hull. Anyone?


Nitpicker. tongue

It capsized and sunk to the bottom of its berth.

It's my understanding that the ship capsized because of the water that was being pumped onto it to fight the fire. Evidentally one side of the ship got more water causing it to roll.

FWIW - I'm of the belief that Frank Costello and Meyer Lansky were behind this "accidental" fire. I further believe that a year later, pressure was put on (then) Governor Dewey and this "fire" was a face-saving way for Dewey to release Luciano from prison (after Dewey screwed him over some six years earlier).
Posted By: RTintera

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 01/31/09 09:28 PM

Originally Posted By: SC
Originally Posted By: RTintera
Not to pick nits, but it "just" capsized at the dock, rather that actually sink, I think. My question to anyone who knows anything about big ships would be- what about a fire causes a giant steel ship to capsize? i doubt that the fire burned a hole through the hull. Anyone?


Nitpicker. tongue

It capsized and sunk to the bottom of its berth.

It's my understanding that the ship capsized because of the water that was being pumped onto it to fight the fire. Evidentally one side of the ship got more water causing it to roll.

FWIW - I'm of the belief that Frank Costello and Meyer Lansky were behind this "accidental" fire. I further believe that a year later, pressure was put on (then) Governor Dewey and this "fire" was a face-saving way for Dewey to release Luciano from prison (after Dewey screwed him over some six years earlier).


Does Lucky say anything about it in Last Testament?
Posted By: SC

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 01/31/09 10:40 PM

Originally Posted By: RTintera
Does Lucky say anything about it in Last Testament?


Yes. Luciano credits Albert Anastasia with coming up with the idea of doing something that would make the Navy look to the Mob for help.

Luciano goes on further to explain how the wheels were greased by Costello to get him transferred to a "better" prison and then eventually released.

I'd recommend the book to anyone who is interested in any Mob stuff.
Posted By: BigMoi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/04/09 10:32 PM

The RICO law was actually authored by G. Robert Blakey,a former law student and teacher at Notre Dame and Cornell. One of the first convictions using RICO was Benny "Lefty Guns" Ruggerio, the infamous mobster who allowed Joe Pistone aka "Donnie Brasco" to get close to him and infiltrate the Bonanno Family.
Posted By: goombah

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/12/09 08:01 PM

I'm 99% sure that it was Blakey who was giving a lecture/seminar for those in the law enforcement field. Somewhere in the middle of the lecture, pagers started going off and Blakey was left standing in an empty room. The reason? Paul Castellano, the head of the Gambino Family, was just assassinated by the men of John Gotti's crew at the time of the lecture.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/13/09 01:54 AM

In Selwyn Raab's excellent book, "The Five Families," he notes that RICO went nowhere for about a decade because Federal prosecutors didn't know how to use it. Then Rudy Giuliana, when he was US Attorney for the Southern District of NY (and a big "Godfather" fan) had a brainstorm: did Joe Bonanno's autobio, "A Man of Honor" [sic] establish the Commission as a Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organization? He invited Blakey to lecture his staff on how to use RICO. He called Blakey "my consigliere." Result: the Commission case. After Giuliani's success, Federal prosecutors around the country fell all over themselves indicting Mafiosi.
Posted By: stevapalooza

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/09/09 03:28 AM

Wow. This thread is like a mob handbook. Great stuff.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/11/09 05:46 PM

Steva, pretty good material to draw from for your comic, huh? Just sayin'...
Posted By: Madame_St_Clair

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/18/09 04:25 AM

That was an enlightening realistic portrayal of a life that is often glorified in movies and tv, Mr. Turnbull. Really, I should just pass this along to every wannabe rapper I know who is always trying to "name drop" anyone related to that Mafia lifestyle and give them a much needed reality check.
Anyways I have a question if anyone can steer me in the right direction. I am looking for information regarding Luciano's helping of the U.S. Government during World War II. I'm studying Criminal Justice and I'm trying to get a head start on an essay that I know that will be due before the summer semester is over with. Thanks for your time.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/18/09 11:35 PM

Above TB has cited a couple of books each of which as I remember do discuss Luciano and the feds. At your library, just check out the section containing Mafia books and I am sure many of them have the info you want. Of course, the web has plenty of info on it.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/19/09 01:33 AM

MSC, you can find references to Luciano's help in two areas--labor peace on NYC waterfront, and in the Allied invasion of Sicily--in many Mob books. I suggest you take the references from two excellent Mob books (vs. so many others that are mediocre). Try Selwyn Raab's "The Five Families," and Robert Lacey's "Little Man - Meyer Lansky and the Gangster Life." Lansky, Luciano's closest adviser, was the intermediary between Luciano, the government and the Mob while Luciano was in prison.
Posted By: DE NIRO

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/19/09 03:53 PM

The book below has alot about Lucky helps in WW2..

Posted By: BdogPrimussucks

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/26/09 08:37 AM

IM new this peshado... so forgve me if im off Kilter or some a lil whakadoo... oK . So give me an estimate how many know what the Fk they talkin about or if they know./know anyone if the Americana Mafia
Posted By: BdogPrimussucks

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/26/09 08:42 AM

Originally Posted By: DonPacino
Exactly. When I first watched Goodfellas I became really intrested in the mafia, I admitedly thought WOW what a great life. After more research I found out that you can not trust anybody or rely on your 'friends'. Great thread TB!
i see this is an old ass post, but what the heck..Ya being interested is one thing and OK to But Mahrone to think is all that is silly... TRUST ME! u get my drift..hope so
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/29/09 06:33 PM

Myth: The FBI for decades ignored the Mafia for two reasons: First, J. Edgar Hoover was a degenerate gambler who got tips on fixed horse races from senior Mafia people. Second, Hoover was gay, and the Mob had a photo of him in full drag that they used to coerce him.

Reality: Neither is true. Hoover was an avid horseplayer who regularly visited racetracks and had himself photographed there. But he was strictly a two-dollar bettor. He did get tips on fixed races from agents who wanted to suck up to the boss. He knew that the agents got the tips from underworld informants. Probably some of them were Mobbed-up, but there was (and is) nothing irregular or unusual about law enforcement using (and paying) informants for information—even info on fixed races.

Hoover was a mama’s boy and lifelong bachelor. He shared a home and vacationed with Clyde Tolson, assistant FBI director, whose only qualification seemed to have been his friendship with Hoover. Several competent biographers have investigated Hoover’s alleged homosexuality since his death in 1972, and have been unable to confirm it. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t gay—it means there’s no proof that he was.

As a man who owed his 50-plus years’ tenure as FBI director to his ability to collect juicy data on other powerful men’s vices, Hoover knew better than anyone that his own personal life could be prime territory for blackmailers and political opponents. Probably the reason he had himself photographed at racetracks and on vacation with Tolson was to make those peccadilloes just public enough to pre-empt potential foes. The last things Hoover would have done would be to meet Frank Costello on park benches to get horse tips, or to attend gay orgies in drag.

So, why did Hoover ignore the Mafia for so long? His personal popularity and his secret files on politicians enabled Hoover to run the FBI as a personal fiefdom. He was obsessed with the Communist Party USA, and directed a huge share of FBI resources to “the enemy within” (a contemporary joke was that the only thing keeping CPUSA afloat was the dues paid by undercover FBI agents and informants). He also favored high profile, short-turnaround investigations such as bank robbery and kidnappings. He gave Mob-controlled gambling and narcotics a wide berth because he knew that the profits they generated enabled organized crime to corrupt law enforcement almost at will.

So, he preferred to consider gambling and drugs as “local issues.” When the Kefauver subcommittee’s televised hearings on gambling and organized crime (1950-51) raised questions about why the FBI wasn’t stopping them, Hoover replied: “If the laws against gambling presently on the state and local statute books were earnestly and vigorously enforce, organized gambling could be eliminated within 48 hours in any community in this land….The basic answer, is an aroused public opinion which will act on a local level through local enforcement to wipe out the problem” [emphasis in original].
Posted By: JerseyGuy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/11/09 08:28 PM

I'm new here and would just like to say that this is a very good compilation of facts and things about the mafia that i have been infatuated with since I played the illusion softworks game in the 2nd grade.

I agree with pretty much you people have to say and the only thing we really differ on is that I have a slightly different view on living that life and getting made. The way I see it, there are perks and some upside to being a wiseguy such as the money,cars,women,power,and respect but I also know that the upside is seriously weighed down by a huge downside such as the inevitablitity of death or imprisonment. Personally I feel tht being a gangster isn't all bad, if it were, there wouldn't be any of them to talk about like this. It has an upside that I mentioned and it isn't hard to imagine how people get drawn down that path. My opinion is that although the mafia has its perks, but the aforementioned death and imprisonment and the vicious cycle of violence and betrayal that turn it into the thing that people make it out to be although a small percentage of mafioso can be loyal and be behind you and help you but not many, see Sammy the Bull's guys, Stymie D'Angelo and Joe Paruta for example.

The bottom line for me is:

It ain't all bad.............but most of it is.


this is just the way i see it so please don't bash me relentlessly smile



Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/12/09 03:04 AM

Welcome, Jersey Guy, hope to see many thoughtful posts from you! smile I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think your assessment of pros and cons is a product of an earlier era in the Mafia:

Italians probably were the most discriminated-against white immigrants to America. Coupled with the insularity and distrust of government institutions (including schools) that they brought with them from Southern Italy and Sicily, Italian Americans resisted assimilation for a couple of generations. For some, the Mafia became the "employer of last resort," like the phone company was for WASPS in middle sized cities. In those days, Mafia life was more straightforward and predictable. A Mafia soldier had a reasonably good understanding of the risks and rewards of Mafia life. If he was loyal and honored omerta, he'd be taken care of. Typical was Joe Valachi--a small-time common soldier. He made more than $100k/year during WWII selling stolen and counterfeit rationing stamps. But when he dabbled in drugs and was caught, he went away. He broke omerta because he thought his boss, Vito Genovese, a fellow prisoner in the Atlanta Penitentiary, betrayed him.

Another factor: Nearly all Mafiosi were common street thugs. All the finger-pricking and vows were embellishments on straighforward criminality. But a few--Tony Accardo, Charlie Luciano, Carlo Gambino, Frank Costello and a handful of others--were superior, and could have been successful in business, the professions and the arts if they'd had the chance. Today Italian Americans have completely assimilated: college, not the streets, is where you'll find the young, ambitions men. Corporate boardrooms, not the Mob, is where you find the successful people. The Mafia gets the John and Junior Gotti's, and the Gaspipe Casso's of the world. tongue

Mob life used to be "cosa nostra." Today, there's no shred of loyalty or (excuse the expression) "honor." It's cosa mia. tongue
Posted By: JerseyGuy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/12/09 05:32 AM

You're completely right and I agree that the mafia definitely isn't what it used to be. Back then, there was some semblance of loyalty, respect, and even some honor. you couldn't say they were saints but you could say that some of those guys were actually half-way decent people, not the best but you know what i mean, but in the newer era, it was all thrown out of the window. nowpeople are only doing it for themselves and half of them probably don't know what the code of omerta even is and would break the oath just to save their asses from the smallest amount of jailtime. looking for honor and respect in today's mafia is like looking for a straight guy at a Miley Cyrus concert.
Posted By: JerseyGuy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/17/09 10:02 PM

I have a question and I am hoping someone here can answer it. When I read the book underboss by Peter Maas that the killing of Phil Testa was by a method forbidden by Mafia rules, the assassins used a bomb. Sammy Gravano also states that the bomb under Frank DeCicco's car wasn't taken seriously because that the Mob in America doesn't allow it. However, I am always seeing reports about American Mafiosos using explosives to kill their target such as in the case of Danny Greene who was an Irish gangster in Cleveland who very much upset his Italian partners.

What i want to know is if the mafia approves of using bombs as a method of assassination or if there are rules against their use.
Posted By: Mark

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/17/09 10:16 PM

I don't know if it's an "approved" method but I do think today the mob shys away from the technique for a couple of reasons. First, it is a very high profile way of getting rid of someone that attracts a lot of attention; media, law, public outcry, etc... Secondly, the Feds now have some pretty hi tech equipment to identify the origins and finger prints from explosion aftermath evidence. If I am not mistaken, some of the Chicago Mob were identified as assailants in several bombings in the 70's and 80's last year in the big Family Secrets trial. Decades old evidence from bombs was used to help convict some big fish in the Chicago Outfit...I could be wrong but the bottom line is that I think explosives attract too much attention.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/18/09 03:53 AM

JerseyGuy, the thing to keep in mind is that there is no honor among thieves. A "rule" exists as long as someone is willing to follow it. Let one desperado violate it and it is history.
John Gotti violated a Commission "rule" by whacking Paul Castellano without the Commission's approval. No one said boo to him. That one had been violated before: Albert Anastasia whacked his boss, Vincent Mangano, then showed up at the next Commission meeting as the new Don--nobody said boo to him. Then Vincent "The Chin" Gigante, a guy who believed in "the rules," decided he didn't agree with the Commission's indifference: He was going to make Gotti pay for his transgression. So, he arranged for Anthony "Gaspipe" Casso to kill Gotti. The two of them agreed that the best way to kill Gotti was to use a bomb--bombing murders are associated with the Sicilian Mafia, so they figured no one would suspect them. (The bomb missed Gotti and killed his consigliere, Frankie DiCicco, instead. Later Gotti and Chin kissed and made up. Some f*****g rules.)

As for Gaspipe: he violated another "rule": he shot up the family of Peter (Fat Pete) Chiodo, whom he'd marked for death, and who turned rat. So much for the "rules."

Repeat: there is no honor among thieves.
Posted By: Tru_Bizelli

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/18/09 09:05 AM

Hey, I just wanted to say that the idea of money, woman, fast cars, and power has always intrigued me. (but I have a lot to learn) Thanks for telling me whatsup. Who Knows? If I didn't hear you say that its not what its cracked up to be, I might have attempted to join. HAHA!

Seriously, I appreciate it. I like hearing the truth. There is nothing like being real!

... also I'm new here, so I hope to get know you guys well and make some new friends!
Posted By: Tru_Bizelli

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/18/09 09:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Thanks for contributing an entry, Goombah. smile And I agree with you completely: Gotti was not railroaded. He was guilty as charged. The authorities did go after him time after time--but that was because he committed crime after crime, and flung it in people's faces through his lunatic obsession with fame and publicity.


Gotti wasn't your normal mobster. Most would have been more secretive about their operations. (Of course, I still have a lot to learn.)
Posted By: JerseyGuy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/18/09 04:31 PM

You are not alone, Tru-Bizelli. I always used to day dream about the Mob and maybe joining it some day, of course that would be the earlier Mafia like in the 40's or 50's because back then, the honor,respect, and all of the qualities of an "honored society" were there in some respects and back then mafiosos, at least some of them, could be half way decent people and stand up guys, I'm not saying they were saints but not all of them were slimy,no good, swindlers, heartless killers, and genuine scumbags. In the more modern days, that isn't there anymore. 95% or more of mobsters are the aforementioned scumbags, killers, etc.

The glory days of the mafia are no more. There's no more, shall I say, "Team" aspect to it. Everybody only cares about themselves and about saving their own asses. I would never dream of getting into that life today but back then, I would be a bit less confrontational towards that path.

Do I make any sense to the people here when I say that?


Edit:

"I truly feel sorry for the younger generation that wants to belong to that life. It's sad for them. There is absolutely no honor and respect today. Little do the newcomers know that there are many made members in the Mafia that wish not to be there and would like nothing better than to walk away from it. So they do the next best thing: stay low key if possible. The young newcomers will never see the kind of big money that was once made. That's long gone. They don't realize what it means to be free and have peace of mind until its taken from them."

This is a qoute from gaspipe casso and it sums up my opinion on the mob pretty well, for a murderous scumbag and a terrible person, he has a way with words LOL. the funny thing is that he talks about being an honorable mafioso whe he ordered the murder of a guy's family
Posted By: Tru_Bizelli

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/25/09 06:19 PM

well, I found myself living the life similar to Ray Liota's character in Goodfellas at one time. It was an experience, but I'm so happy I'm out of it. It was something about the rush of drugs and women. I relate to so many mafia movies, its a shame! But, for real (its not that). It's "not real". Its F#cked up and the people in your life is F#cked up!
BLESSINGS!
Posted By: DonZito

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/26/09 08:26 PM

Hey JerseyGuy, if the mob is so pathetic now, then why do people still wanna read and learn the new stuff?
Posted By: JerseyGuy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/27/09 04:44 PM

Because it is a shadow of what it used to be. I still find the mob of today fascinating but I don't think you can even call it Cosa Nostra anymore. The Mafia hs decellerated and degraded itself to be almost like a common street gang because they have completely disregarded the principles of the ,shall I say, "glory days".
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/03/09 01:20 PM

I watched "Bugsy" over the weekend, a film that I really enjoy for the West Coast scenery and some terrific acting, even if it is highly fictionalized. Anyway, this post almost ended up in the movies thread until I figured it might fit better right here.

Myth: Ben Siegel "invented" the city of Las Vegas.

Reality:

1) Prior to Siegel's Flamingo, the strip already had two casinos: The Last Frontier and El Rancho Vegas.

2) The Flamingo was already being constructed when Siegel muscled his way in, in typical Mob/bully fashion.

3) The Mob was already active in Vegas for at least a few years prior to Siegel's presence, through ownership of several downtown gambling joints and the telegraph service that bookies used to keep track of horse races from coast to coast.

But give Siegel credit for this: If he didn't "invent" Las Vegas, he transformed it, insofar as Vegas meaning glitter, glamour, over-the-top tackiness and escape. It's also a nice balance of myth and reality that a single visionary with a taste for the good life recognized a sleepy western watering hole as the prime spot for an American Monte Carlo in the desert.
Posted By: Yogi Barrabbas

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/05/09 04:12 PM

I was in Leeds for my birthday yesterday and me and my good lady were sitting in a bar enjoying a frothy ale or 3 and had the misfortune of sitting next to 2 chaps who quite frankly were talking a load of crap. Whilst we have no "mafia" as such in the UK we do have villains and blood families who control organised crime. The main family in Newcastle these days is a rum bunch called the Sears who over the last 10 years have ousted another rum bunch called the Conroy's,who all got too old or went to jail.

Well these 2 blokes sitting in Leeds (which is over 100 miles from Newcastle) were talking about the Conroys,how they knew them and did "business" with them and they were this and that etc.etc.etc.

I of course knew they were talking utter rubbish but being the gent i am said nothing,drank up and just left. The moral of the tale is there are always wannabee idiots who talk themselves up about things they know nothing about.

Sad really!
Posted By: DonZito

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/06/09 12:04 AM

They might have done business with them, you never asked them.

Believe me, if someone in the UK says they did business with so and so then ya gotta believe it more then you don't because the UK gangsters aren't worth bragging about and are not big enough for the likes of you to get worked up over.

By saying that they were wannabes smacks of envy to me because you live in Newcastle and have bypassed these folks is completely your choice. You always have the option to be with people if you so desire to.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/06/09 12:12 AM

Originally Posted By: DonZito
They might have done business with them, you never asked them.

Believe me, if someone in the UK says they did business with so and so then ya gotta believe it more then you don't because the UK gangsters aren't worth bragging about and are not big enough for the likes of you to get worked up over.

By saying that they were wannabes smacks of envy to me because you live in Newcastle and have bypassed these folks is completely your choice. You always have the option to be with people if you so desire to.


Why so confrontational?

Yogi is one of the board's oldest and most well liked members, so try to treat him accordingly.

Why join a board just to provoke the long standing members and moderators?

Did we put an ad out for obnoxious this week?
Posted By: DonZito

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/06/09 12:21 AM

I'm sorry to state the facts. I got the informative side of writing a reply from yours truly: Mr Turnbull.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/06/09 01:10 AM

Yes, the movie is infinitely enjoyable, but it does take liberties with Bugsy's life:
The film shows Siegel making his first trip to the West Coast during WWII. He made his first trip in 1933, and two years later had moved there more or less full time. He'd been to Vegas many times before the War, trying to get the sawdust joints in town to buy into the Transnational Racing Wire.

After the Harry Greenberg murder rap was dismissed, Bugsy thought it would be prudent to hole up in Vegas for a while. He found seven hotels operating, some with air conditioning, but all in the "Western corral" style. He tried to buy into El Rancho Vegas but was rebuffed. He did buy into the El Cortez, and got Lansky and some of his NY pals to invest. They doubled their money in less than a year. That's when he set his sights on the Flamingo. It was already called that by its owner, Billy Wilkerson, publisher of the Hollywood Reporter, whose degenerate gambling left him without the means to finish it. Bugsy bought him out, and convinced his Cortez investors to put in their profits (and a lot more) to finishing the Flamingo. As you said, PB, Bugsy didn't really "invent" Vegas, but he was the first to envision it as a modern, Monaco or Miami Beach west of the Mississippi.

BTW: Big Greenie didn't try to find refuge with Bugsy. And Bugsy didn't take him for a ride. Greenie tried to hide from Bugsy. Murder Inc. sent Allie Tick Tock Tannenbaum and Frankie Mr. Gray Carbo to Bugsy. The three hunted Greenie down. Carbo pulled the trigger; Bugsy drove the crash car.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/06/09 01:11 AM

Originally Posted By: DonZito
I'm sorry to state the facts. I got the informative side of writing a reply from yours truly: Mr Turnbull.

Being a pain in the ass will get you banned here, just as you were before as Mini and Lompoc.
Posted By: SC

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/06/09 02:10 AM

Zito is history. As we know, history repeats itself. rolleyes
Posted By: Yogi Barrabbas

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/06/09 05:39 PM

Originally Posted By: DonZito
They might have done business with them, you never asked them.

Believe me, if someone in the UK says they did business with so and so then ya gotta believe it more then you don't because the UK gangsters aren't worth bragging about and are not big enough for the likes of you to get worked up over.

By saying that they were wannabes smacks of envy to me because you live in Newcastle and have bypassed these folks is completely your choice. You always have the option to be with people if you so desire to.


I don't know whether to be annoyed at this or just have a good chortle!

I think i will take the second option!
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/06/09 06:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Yogi Barrabbas


I don't know whether to be annoyed at this or just have a good chortle!

I think i will take the second option!


Always the best option, Yogi. You're ever the gentleman.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/10/09 07:46 PM

MYTH: Mafia families fight each other for control of territories.
REALITY: While intra-family wars for control of the family are common, inter-family wars are rare. They cost too much in blood and money, are too disruptive of business, encourage treason, etc. The Mob has adopted a maxim from the 19th Century robber barons: monopoly and cartels are good, competition is bad.

This is especially true in New York City. None of the Five Families completely controls one or more of NYC’s boroughs—most have rackets that abut others’ within the boroughs. They’ve learned very carefully how to avoid territorial disputes. Let’s take a hypothetical example:

Suppose that, in the Brooklyn neighborhood of Flatbush, Coney Island Avenue has, over the years, become the unofficial dividing line between the Gambinos’ operations (west side of Coney Island Avenue) and the Colombos’ (east side). One day a Colombo made guy rents a vacant storefront on the west side of the street and opens a bookmaking operation. That’s Gambino territory, and the local Gambino crew chief reports the transgression to his caporegime. But the capo doesn’t do anything immediately—he waits a month or six weeks to see if the Colombos’ new business is booming. If it is, he lodges a formal beef with his counterpart capo in the Colombo family.

A sitdown is arranged. After the pro forma bellowing, shouting and threats are dispensed, the two capos come to the preordained settlement: the Colombos can keep the storefront open, but they have to pay the Gambinos a “franchise fee” of $4k/week to operate in their territory. If the business is booming, fine. If the Colombos can’t make the $4k/week payment, they’ll ask for a reduction. If the Gambinos refuse, the Colombos will fold the operation. No way are the two families going to war over such a small time racket.

But what if the racket is big—really big time? Greed is the common denominator among Mafia families. But they’ve all learned that too much greed can be lethal. Huge, citywide and statewide rackets like the “Concrete Club,” the garbage hauling “association" and others are cartelized among the families to prevent jealousy and the fighting that inevitably accompanies it. Sometimes all five will participate. In some cases, the family that launched the big racket will invite another family to participate. That’s a way of messaging the other three families: “We’re sharing this racket—and if you try to muscle in, you’ll be fighting two families, not just one.” But to hog the racket would be fatal.

Case in point: Carmine Galante, the one-time pretender to the Bonanno throne, irritated lots of high-ranking Mafiosi with his coarseness and his bragging (threatening to “make Carlo Gambino s**t in the street”). But his unforgivable sin was to create a huge heroin pipeline from Sicily, and a distribution network in America (the “pizza connection”)—and he refused to share it with the other families. The Commission sanctioned a hit on him. Arrivederci, Lilo.
Posted By: SC

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/10/09 07:58 PM

A really minor myth, but one that still persists nonetheless.

Carlo Gambino supposedly suffered a heart attack and died while watching a Yankee game on tv on October 15, 1976. There was no Yankee game on tv that day!
Posted By: JerseyGuy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/25/09 09:53 PM

I got a question that I need answered. For years I held the rather romantic view that the mob was a once honored society that strayed from the path. I'm very young so it was very easy for me to think like this and I'm starting to come around that maybe I'm a bit to entranced by movies but the reason I thought that the olden mob wasn't so bad is because that most of the gangsters back then didn't seem like all that bad to me. Guys like Lucky, Costello, and Lansky didn't really strike me as scumbags. I just wanna know if some of these guys were actually half-way decent people or if they were all the low-life scumbags that the majority seem to be.
Posted By: dontommasino

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/25/09 09:55 PM

Originally Posted By: SC
A really minor myth, but one that still persists nonetheless.

Carlo Gambino supposedly suffered a heart attack and died while watching a Yankee game on tv on October 15, 1976. There was no Yankee game on tv that day!


They would've been into the playoffs at that point. The Yankees lost the '76 series to the Big Red Machine.
Posted By: SC

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/25/09 10:04 PM

Originally Posted By: dontommasino
Originally Posted By: SC
A really minor myth, but one that still persists nonetheless.

Carlo Gambino supposedly suffered a heart attack and died while watching a Yankee game on tv on October 15, 1976. There was no Yankee game on tv that day!

They would've been into the playoffs at that point. The Yankees lost the '76 series to the Big Red Machine.


The playoffs were finished then. The World Series started the following day (October 16th).
Posted By: DiMaggio68

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/30/09 06:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Don Cardi
Originally Posted By: DonPacino
Exactly. When I first watched Goodfellas I became really intrested in the mafia, I admitedly thought WOW what a great life. After more research I found out that you can not trust anybody or rely on your 'friends'. Great thread TB!


DonPacino, I must commend you for your understanding and your maturity in realizing that the mob life is not all it's cracked up to be and that these people are not the kind of people that anyone should ever look up too.

It's very easy, especially for a young man your age, to become infatuated with the mob because of the way that hollywood glamorizes them and uses their magic to make you root for them. And there's nothing wrong in getting caught up in the moment or with the character that is being portrayed on the big screen. As long as when those credits roll, one realizes that it's not as glorious as it's made out to be in the movies.

Obviously we are all interested in mob movies and learning about real life mobsters, or we wouldn't be talking here. And being interested in the mob, it's people and how it operates is not a bad thing in itself. As a matter of fact it's very intruiging.

But as long as that interest stays at a level where it's only an interest in learning things and wanting to understand why they do the things that they do and operate the way that they do, and stops at that.

I am gald to see that a young man such as yourself has the mentality that you do and can differenciate the mobster life that's portrayed in the movies from the mobster life of the real world.


Don Cardi cool



I may not love, like, respect or honor what they do. However, many of the older mafiosos I have nothin' but respect for. Because they truly are men of honor. Just don't ever disrespect them.
Posted By: JerseyGuy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/30/09 08:26 PM

Well there's no denying that they are criminals but I do agree that not all of them were lowlife dirtbags. Most of them are though.
Posted By: FredoCorleone

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/07/09 06:41 PM

Wow. This is easily the most interesting thread in the section of the site. Thanks for all the info TB.
Posted By: The_Mechanic

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/03/09 10:14 PM

You just have to ask yourself though,
anyone with a basic high school education,especially if they were born into "the life" with a future of betrayal, prison,early death ,and no retirement plan, why would you get into it? I'd run from that faster than an amish upbringing.
Oh,almost forgot, if you're a stand up guy, you get whacked, if you're not, you go into WITSEC.
Posted By: The_Mechanic

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/03/09 10:18 PM

I think Tony "Big Tuna" Accardo, was one of the few that died of natural causes...and of course there was "Uncle Neil".
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/11/09 11:19 AM

Originally Posted By: The_Mechanic
I think Tony "Big Tuna" Accardo, was one of the few that died of natural causes...and of course there was "Uncle Neil".


Don't forget Don Carlo.
Posted By: ledblimp

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/12/09 09:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Don Cardi
Originally Posted By: The_Mechanic
I think Tony "Big Tuna" Accardo, was one of the few that died of natural causes...and of course there was "Uncle Neil".


Don't forget Don Carlo.


Also,.....Lansky, Luciano, Bonnano ( father and son), Gotti, Costello, Paul Ricca, Genovese, Profaci, Magliocco,Magaddino.

Actually seems like the higher you were the more likely you would die of natural causes.
Posted By: The_Mechanic

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/12/09 11:43 PM

You are correct, but if i recollect, old man Bonanno was forced to retire after his "Man of honor" book hit the racks, or else they would've taken him for a ride.....and Frank Costello, had one zing off of his head from the "Chin", and later had the doors blown off of his mausoleum by Galante, not sure if there is truth to the last one,but there is an account of it out there.
Posted By: The_Mechanic

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/13/09 12:02 AM

And forgive my lack of detail in this account, but there was one high ranking mobster who went to mexico to cool his heels after a near miss, oh....nevermind, it was Giancana, who was found dead in his apt, with about $1500 on him, sorry to ramble, confused him with costello for a minute.
Kennedy conspiracies anyone?
Posted By: Lilo

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/18/09 10:27 PM

Here's a question/observation.
Supposedly a mob person should get permission before killing anyone , but especially before killing another made member or someone completely uninvolved in the life. But is this "rule" even adhered to any more? Roy DeMeo murdered a made man when he was still an associate. DeMeo would go on to kill many other people-some of whom weren't criminals-with only mild expressions of disappointment from Castellano. Tommy Pitera and Greg Scarpa killed numerous people without any permission slips from higher ups. If we go back years before, Nicky Scarfo killed a longshoreman in a fight and was only exiled to Atlantic City.

How true is this rule, if it ever was?
These days as a Mob captain or underboss with the feds everywhere, why would you want to take the chance of being caught giving explicit permission to murder someone anyways?
Posted By: The_Mechanic

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/18/09 11:28 PM

That's a great question/observation,Lilo....
and as others have said before, being a good earner gets you a pass most of the time. DeMeo and his crew, were chopping up luxury vehicles and selling them to the saudi's for a premium I'm sure. As well as being ass deep in the coke trade. Plus most other crews were afraid of them due to their mechanized killing methods, (see "murder machine")
Even Gotti was aprehensive about visiting them, as well as Nino Gaggi's nephew Dominic Montiglio. I personally think that the average Capo's ego, or whomever is ordering the hit, doesn't think that the'll be wiretapped, or if so the code they use for a hit, will be cracked. Bottom line, I think you kick back enough for the boss, you can kill a guy just to take over his rackets.....just my observation, I think the esteemed Turnbull could probably add to this.
Posted By: The_Mechanic

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/19/09 12:10 AM

One other observation......did you notice how Scarfo, DeMeo, and I'm sure a score of others became really paranoid toward the end of their careers?
An interesting psychological phenomenon if there was one. Not that being careful keeps you alive but......
Posted By: Dapper_Don

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/19/09 12:41 AM

yeah and dotn forget about Gaspipe who I find to be one of the most interesting mob figures
Posted By: The_Mechanic

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/19/09 01:04 AM

You're right, I don't know enough about him(gaspipe) but didn't he go into hiding for a while before rolling over?
I'll have to re-reference "The five families"
Posted By: Dapper_Don

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/19/09 01:12 AM

yeah he was running the fam while on the lam and also orderign a bunch of hits on people he suspected of being informers or of double crossing him. read "Gaspipe:confessions of a Mafia Boss" its a good read!
Posted By: The_Mechanic

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/19/09 01:18 AM

Thank's for the suggestion, I will be reading alot more once the weather starts turning south....
Posted By: The_Mechanic

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/19/09 09:36 AM

Yea, maybe someone can explain it better than me....but big Paulie seemed to give the DeMeo crew carte blanche dealing dope, but the gotti crew seemed afraid to do it, partially the reason they took him out at Sparks....besides the fact that "quack quack" was on tape, badmouthing big paul, and john's brother gene, was indicted for dealing smack.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 12/06/09 10:50 PM

Mafia 'number two' is captured by Italian police
By DAILY MAIL REPORTER Last updated at 7:01 PM on 05th December 2009

The number two in Italy's notorious Cosa Nostra mafia has been arrested in a raid, it has been confirmed.

The Italian interior minister said police in Palermo captured Gianni Nicchi in the bust in Palermo, Sicily.

Roberto Maroni describes convicted Mafioso as a "young, dangerous, ambitious, pitiless killer."
Posted By: prodotti

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 12/27/09 07:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
All true about RICO, guys.
The real impact of RICO is that, before it was passed, law enforcement had to catch a Mob guy in the act of committing a crime, and get more than one witness to it. RICO made it a crime, punishable by double-digit sentences, to be part of a "criminal conspiracy." "Conspiracy" is very important:" no corroborating witness is required for the government to obtain a conviction. And RICO also eased the burden of proof by simply requiring law enforcement to show that the accused was part of a "pattern" of crimes.
"Corrupt organization" is also very important. That means that if the Mob guy was influencing a labor union (a favorite of Mobs), the union could be characterized as a "corrupt organization."
Two other very important aspects of RICO:
1. A guy who was victimized by the Mob could be considered part of a "corrupt organization" because he "cooperated" with the Mob even though he was forced. So, if you were a degenerate gambler who was into a Mob loan shark for a lot of money that you couldn't pay back; and the Mob guy forced you to "bust out" your business to pay him back; then you could be charged under RICO because your busting out of your business constituted a "corrupt organization." Faced with a double digit sentence, you'd have a big incentive to cooperate with law enforcement against the Mob guy.
2. RICO for the first time specified iron-clad rules for obtaining phone taps and other forms of electronic surveillance that would stand up as evidence in any court of law. Previously, a lot of "bugs" were thrown out by judges as being illegal. Not after RICO, though.
And, yes DMC and DC: it's true that RICO languished for 10 years before Rudy Giuliani, as US Attorney for the Southern District of New York, finally figured out how to use it. He invited Robert Blakely, the lawyer who wrote RICO, to daily brief his investigators and assistant prosecutors on how the law could work. Giuliani, a great fan of the GF Trilogy, called Blakely, "my consigliere." After his huge success in the famous Commission case, prosecutors all over the country figured out that they could heap glory on themselves by using RICO to prosecute the Mob.
The best source on RICO and how it works is Selwyn Raab's "The Five Families," IMO the best Mob book of the last 10 years.


not forget that RICO was also used as a presure to get more information out of a convicted (or trialed) mafioso. Normally a guy would do his time and return into society as a free man, enjoying his wealth that he made before he got caught. RICO changed all that. If he would be out of jail, all his worldy assats would have been taken away from him. His wife and kids would be broke during his absences and would be in the mercy of his family or wealthfare. So after RICO, people chose to rat out their friends much quicklier. It was basically the end of Omerta as I see it.
Posted By: calabresesoldier

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/20/10 01:42 AM

Hey this is a interesting site I have read so many books and been on the internet and didn't know any other people except the feds are interesting in the mob like this. Does anybody have any info of the Pittsburgh Family Today
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/20/10 01:53 AM

Here is a link to a recent post on that subject. You can always try the "search" function at the top of the page.

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...true#Post555972
Posted By: calabresesoldier

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/23/10 02:48 AM

Thanks this is my first blog page and I'm learning about this stuff, but I always have been interested in the mob its all I read about and I read quite often.
Posted By: calabresesoldier

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/23/10 02:53 AM

I wanted to know if anyone knows why Frank Nitti killed himself, I really never found much information on that topic. He was the outfit boss, and went to the tracks and killed himself, does anyone know?
Posted By: calabresesoldier

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/23/10 02:56 AM

I was under the impression Ruggiero was dealing heroin also. I find it surprising that Gotti was allowed to stay boss, it seemed that he wasn't very well liked throughout the Gambino family, maybe feared.
Posted By: calabresesoldier

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/23/10 03:07 AM

Was Bonnano retired when the Galante hit was made or was he just banned from New York? Didn't he and his sons have crews in Arizona and California? I thought Bonnano was out of the picture before the whole Donnie Brasco thing exploded also, or was he running Brooklyn from Arizona?
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/23/10 03:29 AM

Originally Posted By: calabresesoldier
I was under the impression Ruggiero was dealing heroin also. I find it surprising that Gotti was allowed to stay boss, it seemed that he wasn't very well liked throughout the Gambino family, maybe feared.


Angelo Ruggiero, Gene Gotti, and John Carneglia were the leaders of the heroin ring. They took it over from Angelo's brother Salvatore after he died in a plane crash.

Bosses usually get to keep their title even after they go to prison. But by the late 1990's there was pressure for Gotti to step down and name someone else boss. Nick Corozzo almost became the new boss but he was indicted before that could happen. After Gotti died in 2002, his brother Peter became the new boss. John Jr. had also been acting boss for a time previously.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/23/10 03:33 AM

Originally Posted By: calabresesoldier
Was Bonnano retired when the Galante hit was made or was he just banned from New York? Didn't he and his sons have crews in Arizona and California? I thought Bonnano was out of the picture before the whole Donnie Brasco thing exploded also, or was he running Brooklyn from Arizona?


Bonanno got chased out of New York in the mid-1960's and he was more or less retired from that point on. He didn't have any clout to run the family in New York and certainly not from across the country. His sons and some others had some things going on in Arizona and Calfornia but nothing major that would involve entire crews. It was just them at that point. I've read in one or two places that he was consulted before the hit on Galante but I don't know if that's actually true or not. Where Bonanno comes back into the picture later on is his book "A Man of Honor," which included a chapter on the Commission and inspired Rudy Giuliani to indict the entire Commission in New York in the mid-1980's. Bonanno was called to testify but refused and was jailed for contempt.
Posted By: calabresesoldier

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/24/10 04:48 PM

Yes I read that book as well. Then I read War of the Godfathers by Roemer, I think his info was off, but the times didn't add up, in his book Bonnano supposedly went to a small war with the Outfit in the 80's, and it also suggests he took a capo and crew with him to Arizona and Bill his son, had one in California. But as I said I believe a lot of that book to be fiction.

Also, going back to the Bonnano family when Galante was hit, I know why, but who was the boss of the family at the time. Galante was very loyal to Bonnano, his consigliere, before he went away, so maybe Bonnano had some clout. But Rastelli is also listed as the boss at that time, was the family broke up into two factions?
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/24/10 06:29 PM

"War of the Godfathers" is historical fiction. Some of the characters were already dead within the timeframe in which the book was set. Roemer had a lot of balls passing that crap off as "true crime." It belongs on the "mystery" shelf within the fiction section of your local bookstore. But Roemer was an ex-Fed who had enough clout to hook up with a big publisher and dupe the public. The guy is dead, so I really don't want to knock him, but he was everything that's wrong with cops-turned-authors and the publishing business.
Posted By: Lilo

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/24/10 07:19 PM

Originally Posted By: calabresesoldier
I wanted to know if anyone knows why Frank Nitti killed himself, I really never found much information on that topic. He was the outfit boss, and went to the tracks and killed himself, does anyone know?


I have seen diferent hypotheses on whether Nitti was the Boss of the Outfit in quite the same way that a NY Family Boss would be of a NY Family-with complete and total control. The Outfit was organized a little differently. While I wouldn't say Nitti was a front boss he may have been something closer to a CEO.

In any event Nitti was the identifiable leader of the Outfit and the one who had led the Outfit into the Hollywood extortion cases. When this went bad (Browne/Bioff got arrested and ended up providing information-at first inadvertently and then on purpose to the authorities), much of the initial post-Capone leadership hierarchy was indicted.

Greatly angered, everyone met at Nitti's house to plan strategy. Being the self-serving sort of people they were a consensus was reached that since much of this was Nitti's fault anyway and since he was the guy out front, he should just take the fall for everyone. Ricca was the leader of this faction and the most vocal about it.

Of course Nitti didn't see anything logical about this and was of the opinion that since it was a conspiracy charge everything would be fine if they just all stuck together. Nitti had been in prison before and had ZERO desire to go back.

Nitti and Ricca started screaming at each other and finally Ricca said "Frank, you're asking for it". This was widely understood to be a threat to either do the time or wind up dead. At that Nitti told everyone to leave his house.

The next day he killed himself.
Posted By: calabresesoldier

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/25/10 11:47 PM

I thought most is fiction but some was based on some fact if not much. I glad to see the dates and names and times didn't add up to other people as well as me.
Posted By: calabresesoldier

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/25/10 11:51 PM

Never heard that story thanks for the input I didn't know that family admin was being indicted at the time of his death. That at least gives a plausible reason why he would have killed himself. Any speculation it was a hit made to look like a suicide?
Posted By: Lilo

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/26/10 08:54 AM

Originally Posted By: calabresesoldier
Any speculation it was a hit made to look like a suicide?


Nope. Nitti killed himself in public in front of witnesses-the crew of a train.
Posted By: Don Rico

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/21/10 04:41 AM

Quote:
All true about RICO, guys.
The real impact of RICO is that, before it was passed, law enforcement had to catch a Mob guy in the act of committing a crime, and get more than one witness to it. RICO made it a crime, punishable by double-digit sentences, to be part of a "criminal conspiracy." "Conspiracy" is very important:" no corroborating witness is required for the government to obtain a conviction. And RICO also eased the burden of proof by simply requiring law enforcement to show that the accused was part of a "pattern" of crimes.
"Corrupt organization" is also very important. That means that if the Mob guy was influencing a labor union (a favorite of Mobs), the union could be characterized as a "corrupt organization."
Two other very important aspects of RICO:
1. A guy who was victimized by the Mob could be considered part of a "corrupt organization" because he "cooperated" with the Mob even though he was forced. So, if you were a degenerate gambler who was into a Mob loan shark for a lot of money that you couldn't pay back; and the Mob guy forced you to "bust out" your business to pay him back; then you could be charged under RICO because your busting out of your business constituted a "corrupt organization." Faced with a double digit sentence, you'd have a big incentive to cooperate with law enforcement against the Mob guy.
2. RICO for the first time specified iron-clad rules for obtaining phone taps and other forms of electronic surveillance that would stand up as evidence in any court of law. Previously, a lot of "bugs" were thrown out by judges as being illegal. Not after RICO, though.
And, yes DMC and DC: it's true that RICO languished for 10 years before Rudy Giuliani, as US Attorney for the Southern District of New York, finally figured out how to use it. He invited Robert Blakely, the lawyer who wrote RICO, to daily brief his investigators and assistant prosecutors on how the law could work. Giuliani, a great fan of the GF Trilogy, called Blakely, "my consigliere." After his huge success in the famous Commission case, prosecutors all over the country figured out that they could heap glory on themselves by using RICO to prosecute the Mob.
The best source on RICO and how it works is Selwyn Raab's "The Five Families," IMO the best Mob book of the last 10 years.




You talkin' to ME?

You TALKIN' TA ME!?!?!?!

I don't see nobody else here... You talkin' ta ME!?!?!?!
Posted By: Don Rico

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/21/10 04:45 AM

Originally Posted By: calabresesoldier
I wanted to know if anyone knows why Frank Nitti killed himself, I really never found much information on that topic. He was the outfit boss, and went to the tracks and killed himself, does anyone know?


I caught a made-for-TV movie on LIFETIME or some shit, a few years back and in the end, Frank Nitti just "walked upon those tracks" and got himself "runned over"...

... Yeah right.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/26/10 05:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Don Rico
Originally Posted By: calabresesoldier
I wanted to know if anyone knows why Frank Nitti killed himself, I really never found much information on that topic. He was the outfit boss, and went to the tracks and killed himself, does anyone know?


I caught a made-for-TV movie on LIFETIME or some shit, a few years back and in the end, Frank Nitti just "walked upon those tracks" and got himself "runned over"...

... Yeah right.


The Outfit had penetrated and corrupted a key Hollywood labor union. The racket was exposed in a newspaper series in 1943, and the Mob's front man, Willie Bioff, was indicted. He and his co-defendants then ratted out their higher-ups in the Outfit. Paul (the Waiter) Ricca and others in the Outfit demanded that Nitti take the rap and go to jail as a "stand up guy." Nitti had done 18 hard months for income tax evasion previously, and he didnt' want any more time. So, he got drunk, wandered onto the railroad tracks--and shot himself in the head.
Posted By: NINOFUKNGAGGI

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/25/10 05:38 AM

john gotti is a bitch
Posted By: Tru_Bizelli

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/27/10 12:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Don Rico
Quote:
All true about RICO, guys.
The real impact of RICO is that, before it was passed, law enforcement had to catch a Mob guy in the act of committing a crime, and get more than one witness to it. RICO made it a crime, punishable by double-digit sentences, to be part of a "criminal conspiracy." "Conspiracy" is very important:" no corroborating witness is required for the government to obtain a conviction. And RICO also eased the burden of proof by simply requiring law enforcement to show that the accused was part of a "pattern" of crimes.
"Corrupt organization" is also very important. That means that if the Mob guy was influencing a labor union (a favorite of Mobs), the union could be characterized as a "corrupt organization."
Two other very important aspects of RICO:
1. A guy who was victimized by the Mob could be considered part of a "corrupt organization" because he "cooperated" with the Mob even though he was forced. So, if you were a degenerate gambler who was into a Mob loan shark for a lot of money that you couldn't pay back; and the Mob guy forced you to "bust out" your business to pay him back; then you could be charged under RICO because your busting out of your business constituted a "corrupt organization." Faced with a double digit sentence, you'd have a big incentive to cooperate with law enforcement against the Mob guy.
2. RICO for the first time specified iron-clad rules for obtaining phone taps and other forms of electronic surveillance that would stand up as evidence in any court of law. Previously, a lot of "bugs" were thrown out by judges as being illegal. Not after RICO, though.
And, yes DMC and DC: it's true that RICO languished for 10 years before Rudy Giuliani, as US Attorney for the Southern District of New York, finally figured out how to use it. He invited Robert Blakely, the lawyer who wrote RICO, to daily brief his investigators and assistant prosecutors on how the law could work. Giuliani, a great fan of the GF Trilogy, called Blakely, "my consigliere." After his huge success in the famous Commission case, prosecutors all over the country figured out that they could heap glory on themselves by using RICO to prosecute the Mob.
The best source on RICO and how it works is Selwyn Raab's "The Five Families," IMO the best Mob book of the last 10 years.




You talkin' to ME?

You TALKIN' TA ME!?!?!?!

I don't see nobody else here... You talkin' ta ME!?!?!?!


I never did understand the "union" deal with the mob .. anybody can sum that up in a few sentences?
For i.e. "We're with the Union" ;-) lol

Thanks!
Posted By: Lilo

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/27/10 02:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Tru_Bizelli

I never did understand the "union" deal with the mob .. anybody can sum that up in a few sentences?
For i.e. "We're with the Union" ;-) lol

Thanks!


Are you asking why the mob was attracted to unions or how they used them?
Unions used to be a much larger section of the private marketplace than they are currently. Mob control over or influence in a union means at the very minimum that mob associates or members can get no show jobs, legal income and legitimate health care coverage/pensions. But that's pocket change. Union control means votes which means political influence. And if you control the union not only do you get to extort the working man (union and non union) in a variety of ways , you can do the same thing (extortion/racketeering) to businesses and even municipalities or states. And if you're smart enough and entrepreneurial enough there's no end to the games you can play with pension fund loans and withdrawals. You can throw work to favored companies-i.e those owned by your in-laws or other relatives. You have an inside track to steal whatever goods the union happens to produce. You have a captive market for loansharking and gambling. Depending on the type of union you might even have a reserve force of muscle that you can use for jobs. Back when unions were common and the Mob was strong, there were tons of ways to make money.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/02/10 09:13 PM

I think without the unions the mob wouldn't even be half as powerful as they were.
Posted By: jvanley

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/04/10 02:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Many people on these boards, especially younger people, ask questions or make statements about Mob life that are often myths--not realities. I'd like to start a thread that helps clear up the myths. I'll post occasionally, and ask you to post your own ideas, thoughts, explanations. Here's the first:

BEING "MADE" IN THE MOB IS DANGEROUS TO LIFE AND LIBERTY

Many younger people believe that getting "made" in the Mafia is the ultimate glory. Nothing could be further from the truth: Getting "made" is just about the worst thing that could happen to anyone:

First you have to serve an "apprenticeship," during which you'll have to kiss the asses of every member of the crew you hope to join, and turn over most of your earnings to a boss who thinks you're lower than whale s**t. If you're "lucky," the apprenticeship will last for a decade or less. By that time, you'll have convinced the boss that you're dumb and compliant enough to be "honored" by being made.

So, you'll probably be assigned to kill someone you don't know, for a reason that's not explained to you; and take all the risk on yourself with no reward. If you manage to whack the guy without being killed, injured or arrested, your "reward" will be the famous "induction ceremony"--the fingers pricked so that your blood runs together with the Don's (just hope he doesn't have AIDS or some other STD); the burning saint's card, the oath, the kisses on the cheek, etc. Now you've got it made, right?

Wrong! Your troubles have just begun:
You'll be assigned to a crew chief whose purpose in life is to squeeze you dry. You'll be given a "living"--a sports betting operation, some numbers, drugs or loan shark action. But since the Mob is a pyramid scheme, your crew chief will give you a "nut"--an amount that you must kick back to him each week, whether or not your rackets generate enough profit to cover it. He'll set the amount so high that you'll have no time or opportunity to do anything on your own except work for him. And if you fail to meet the weekly nut, he'll hit you with the same "vig" that he charges his loan shark victims--six percent per week.

Oh, and let's not forget your new "brothers" in the Mafia--the guys who kissed you on the cheek when you got made, and now refer to you as "a friend of ours." Every one of them has contacts in law enforcement that they feed info to in return for being left alone to pursue their own rackets. As soon as your ceremony was completed, they were on the phone to their favorite cops, informing them of the newest member of the Mob. Suddenly you're going to get more attention from law enforcement personnel than a visiting head of state. Your "brothers" will see you as insurance for them when they commit high profile crimes: they'll tip off their police pals that you did the dirty deeds. And, if you manage to survive all of that, the Don'll evntually get nailed on a RICO charge, and he'll rat out you and your other "brothers" in return for a free pass to the Witness Protection Program.

"Honored Society"? You'd be better off washing dishes for a living.


This is a great post........

but.....It couldnt be any further from the truth.

For guys like well, ALL of us on this board and 95 percent of the world, it would be infact a scary proposition to take the oath of Omerta.

But to the other 5 percent of the population who call themselfs associates, this is the ultimate glory.

You see, all those guys have an uncle/brother/father/etc who grew up in brookly, howard beach, ozone park, staten island, whatever and all they can think about is getting their button.

They dont care that 95 percent of the people who ever get their button end up dead or in the can.

Guys like US, we would run from a button because we grew up in kansas, Utah, Sunny California, ETC. We have uncles, fathers, brothers who are accountants, personal trainers and car salesman.....not loan sharks, herion dealers, pump and dumps and Enforcers...

My point....

to the average normal world and hard working society, ya a button is a dead end road to jail, death or the witness protection program.

to the other part of the world known as "associates", the button is a right of passage to never have to have a legitmate job drilling rivets at a machine shop, teaching, or mowing 20 yards a day for a hundred bucks.

It is their right of passage to do whatever they want, whenever they want. When they break their rules they die, when we do we get a citation.

Mu point is that what scares you and I does not scare these guys, they live by their own set of rules and have their own set of fears.....an they fear NO ONE, who well.....doesnt have a button.

Posted By: jvanley

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/04/10 02:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Dapper_Don
yeah he was running the fam while on the lam and also orderign a bunch of hits on people he suspected of being informers or of double crossing him. read "Gaspipe:confessions of a Mafia Boss" its a good read!


Thats the thing though, everyone THOUGHT Casso was "suspecting" people of being informers....

He actually had a total of 5 FBI agents and local cops on his payroll(we all know about louie and steve) but he had Doug Mcane and others who would go straight to him and say:

"Hey so and so is cutting a deal or rolling over on you"

Then Casso would disbatch a hit team and kill them. No one, I mean no one ever knew other than Burton Kaplan Casso had these people telling him this.

This was infact one of the MAJOR reasons for his downfall, people thought he was killing people for no good reason and was waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to paranoid. Well, he wasnt, no one knew he was being told these people REALLY were rats.

In turn, everyone was thinking, my god, am I next? is he going to suspect me?????
Posted By: Dapper_Don

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/04/10 04:19 AM

yeah but gaspipe also plotted hits on people like Pete Chiodo who he thought were rats but only turned after the fact. Gaspipe was def a lethal mob boss that name is well earned thats for sure. It was pure genius to have those fbi and nypd people on his payroll. I find him to be probably one of the most interesting mobsters in the last 20 years.
Posted By: DiAmico

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/23/10 03:36 PM

If this is the wrong place, sorry about it but..

The gambino mob boss John D'Amico, do any of you have any information on the guy? - Execpt that he went away for quite a while, I certainly wanna know more about this fella.
Posted By: Mukremin

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/27/10 09:46 PM

hey guys i am new on the forums, but i am active in the italian mafia world pretty long. I really like the world of mafia, i am turkish but i always felt warm with italians, not to mention i look like an italian. thats me anyways, but could someone clarify me some things. How did the mob make money on the window stuff that happenedin new york last decade. And is it still true what Jack Falcone (ex fbi) says about that the 5 families make money on every cement and stone that is put on new york. I read the above post about unions. But i need more detail, how doe they really earn money with unions. And whats a no show job?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 11/20/10 05:20 PM

Sorry I just spotted your post, Mukremin. And welcome to the Boards! smile
For a thorough understanding of the rackets you cited, you should read Selwyn Raab's "The Five Families," which goes into all of them in brilliant detail. In general, the Mob can dominate a racket like concrete, garbage collection, window replacement, etc., by forming a contractors' "association." This "association" is a Mob front. First they go to the prime contractor for a new office building, and declare that only concrete companies that are members of the "association" will be permitted to work on his site. Then, if you are a concrete contractor, you will be told that you must join the "association" in order to get business. You pay "dues" to the "association" that amount to, say, ten dollars per ton of concrete poured. You tack that cost onto your bill to the prime contractor. He passes that cost onto the building owner, who passes it on to building tenants, etc.

Labor unions have always been a rich source of money and power for the Mob. A Mob will infiltrate a union and have one or more of its members elected or appointed to key positions in the union. Unions have big treasuries made up of dues paid, plus contributions toward pension funds and healthcare. The Mob guys simply plunder the treasuries. Another racket is political power: Mob-controlled unions can endorse politicians, and contribute to their campaigns, in return for political favors. And, Mob-controlled unions can shake down contractors by demanding under-the-table payoffs to officials, as well as dozens of "no-show" jobs. These are well-paid jobs on construction sites that the unions dole out to favored Mob guys who never have to work a single day but still get paid. Hope that helps.
Posted By: Mukremin

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 11/22/10 04:54 PM

thanks for the information Turnbull wink
i am into reading a lot these days, completed many mafia books. Learned much from the books, and here in the forums ofcourse.
Posted By: tattoo_mafia

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 11/27/10 01:47 AM

Originally Posted By: jvanley
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Many people on these boards, especially younger people, ask questions or make statements about Mob life that are often myths--not realities. I'd like to start a thread that helps clear up the myths. I'll post occasionally, and ask you to post your own ideas, thoughts, explanations. Here's the first:

BEING "MADE" IN THE MOB IS DANGEROUS TO LIFE AND LIBERTY

Many younger people believe that getting "made" in the Mafia is the ultimate glory. Nothing could be further from the truth: Getting "made" is just about the worst thing that could happen to anyone:

First you have to serve an "apprenticeship," during which you'll have to kiss the asses of every member of the crew you hope to join, and turn over most of your earnings to a boss who thinks you're lower than whale s**t. If you're "lucky," the apprenticeship will last for a decade or less. By that time, you'll have convinced the boss that you're dumb and compliant enough to be "honored" by being made.

So, you'll probably be assigned to kill someone you don't know, for a reason that's not explained to you; and take all the risk on yourself with no reward. If you manage to whack the guy without being killed, injured or arrested, your "reward" will be the famous "induction ceremony"--the fingers pricked so that your blood runs together with the Don's (just hope he doesn't have AIDS or some other STD); the burning saint's card, the oath, the kisses on the cheek, etc. Now you've got it made, right?

Wrong! Your troubles have just begun:
You'll be assigned to a crew chief whose purpose in life is to squeeze you dry. You'll be given a "living"--a sports betting operation, some numbers, drugs or loan shark action. But since the Mob is a pyramid scheme, your crew chief will give you a "nut"--an amount that you must kick back to him each week, whether or not your rackets generate enough profit to cover it. He'll set the amount so high that you'll have no time or opportunity to do anything on your own except work for him. And if you fail to meet the weekly nut, he'll hit you with the same "vig" that he charges his loan shark victims--six percent per week.

Oh, and let's not forget your new "brothers" in the Mafia--the guys who kissed you on the cheek when you got made, and now refer to you as "a friend of ours." Every one of them has contacts in law enforcement that they feed info to in return for being left alone to pursue their own rackets. As soon as your ceremony was completed, they were on the phone to their favorite cops, informing them of the newest member of the Mob. Suddenly you're going to get more attention from law enforcement personnel than a visiting head of state. Your "brothers" will see you as insurance for them when they commit high profile crimes: they'll tip off their police pals that you did the dirty deeds. And, if you manage to survive all of that, the Don'll evntually get nailed on a RICO charge, and he'll rat out you and your other "brothers" in return for a free pass to the Witness Protection Program.

"Honored Society"? You'd be better off washing dishes for a living.


This is a great post........

but.....It couldnt be any further from the truth.

For guys like well, ALL of us on this board and 95 percent of the world, it would be infact a scary proposition to take the oath of Omerta.

But to the other 5 percent of the population who call themselfs associates, this is the ultimate glory.

You see, all those guys have an uncle/brother/father/etc who grew up in brookly, howard beach, ozone park, staten island, whatever and all they can think about is getting their button.

They dont care that 95 percent of the people who ever get their button end up dead or in the can.

Guys like US, we would run from a button because we grew up in kansas, Utah, Sunny California, ETC. We have uncles, fathers, brothers who are accountants, personal trainers and car salesman.....not loan sharks, herion dealers, pump and dumps and Enforcers...

My point....

to the average normal world and hard working society, ya a button is a dead end road to jail, death or the witness protection program.

to the other part of the world known as "associates", the button is a right of passage to never have to have a legitmate job drilling rivets at a machine shop, teaching, or mowing 20 yards a day for a hundred bucks.

It is their right of passage to do whatever they want, whenever they want. When they break their rules they die, when we do we get a citation.

Mu point is that what scares you and I does not scare these guys, they live by their own set of rules and have their own set of fears.....an they fear NO ONE, who well.....doesnt have a button.

that was very well put..this is my first post and have read too many mafia books to count them all..they look at life a different way than the average person..getting pinched is just the price of doing business in their eyes..
Posted By: jvanley

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 01/03/11 06:26 PM

As for dealing in Heroin, Even before Gotti was boss his crew were the largest Herion Dealers in the Family at the time. Yet Gotti never got dirty hands from it. The feds and everyone else knew Gotti was taking the money from it.

People are confused about the death sentence in the Mafia on dealing drugs.

Its not "dont deal drugs" its "dont get caught dealing drugs"
Posted By: jvanley

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 01/03/11 06:29 PM

Other Myths in the Mafia:

1. You have to make your bones to become made.

2. They will kill anyone-they usually wont kill cops.

3. The making ceremony. While nearly every ceremony does consist of a finger prick, They keep them as short as possible. The last thing they need are the Feds busting in on a ceremony.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 01/03/11 07:14 PM

Originally Posted By: jvanley
Other Myths in the Mafia:

1. You have to make your bones to become made.


As Carl Sifakis points out in the Mafia Encyclopedia there just weren't enough gangland related killings for every guy that was made. It was all about money. Being a cashcow is sufficient enough to get made.
Posted By: GaryH

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 01/06/11 11:06 PM

Being a cashcow is sufficient enough to get made

I thought that after the Donnie Brasco fiasco, it became compulsory for a new member to kill someone - that way the mob knew they werent a cop or an agent?
Posted By: Lilo

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 01/06/11 11:31 PM

Originally Posted By: GaryH
Being a cashcow is sufficient enough to get made

I thought that after the Donnie Brasco fiasco, it became compulsory for a new member to kill someone - that way the mob knew they werent a cop or an agent?


Nope. They just don't have enough people they need to kill in order to require every new member "make his bones" in the old fashioned way.

I think the changes due to the Donnie Brasco situation were to require more than one made member to vouch for a prospective inductee as well as more detailed background checks being required-i.e. people who had actually seen the new fish commit crimes instead of just having him show up with money and vague tales of jobs pulled in other states.
Posted By: Rebelchick

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 01/11/11 10:19 AM

Originally Posted By: calabresesoldier
I wanted to know if anyone knows why Frank Nitti killed himself, I really never found much information on that topic. He was the outfit boss, and went to the tracks and killed himself, does anyone know?


This is what I've found on it.

"A severe claustrophobe as a result of his first prison term, Nitti dreaded the idea of another prison confinement. It was also rumored that he was suffering from terminal cancer at this time. For these or possibly other reasons, he ultimately decided to take his own life."
Posted By: Lilo

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 01/11/11 10:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Rebelchick

This is what I've found on it.

"A severe claustrophobe as a result of his first prison term, Nitti dreaded the idea of another prison confinement. It was also rumored that he was suffering from terminal cancer at this time. For these or possibly other reasons, he ultimately decided to take his own life."


Yup. He didn't want to go back to jail.
You're asking for it Frank!!!
Posted By: jvanley

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/08/11 01:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Lilo
Originally Posted By: GaryH
Being a cashcow is sufficient enough to get made

I thought that after the Donnie Brasco fiasco, it became compulsory for a new member to kill someone - that way the mob knew they werent a cop or an agent?


Nope. They just don't have enough people they need to kill in order to require every new member "make his bones" in the old fashioned way.

I think the changes due to thewere to require more than one made member to vouch for a prospective inductee as well as more detailed Donnie Brasco sitbackground checks being required-i.e. people who had actually seen the new fish commit crimes instead of just having him show up with money and vague tales of jobs pulled in other states.


Biggest Mob Myth: Wise Guys are smart!

That Blow Hard Jack Garcia infiltrated the Gambino Family with the same damn thing Joe Pistone did.... A Jewel Theif!
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/08/11 03:17 PM

Originally Posted By: jvanley
Originally Posted By: Lilo
Originally Posted By: GaryH
Being a cashcow is sufficient enough to get made

I thought that after the Donnie Brasco fiasco, it became compulsory for a new member to kill someone - that way the mob knew they werent a cop or an agent?


Nope. They just don't have enough people they need to kill in order to require every new member "make his bones" in the old fashioned way.

I think the changes due to thewere to require more than one made member to vouch for a prospective inductee as well as more detailed Donnie Brasco sitbackground checks being required-i.e. people who had actually seen the new fish commit crimes instead of just having him show up with money and vague tales of jobs pulled in other states.


Biggest Mob Myth: Wise Guys are smart!

That Blow Hard Jack Garcia infiltrated the Gambino Family with the same damn thing Joe Pistone did.... A Jewel Theif!


Most of the lower echolon guys are not really smart and there's a reason for it: they are lower echelon guys. wink

Most of the smart mafiosi who are still around are the oldtimers, but they will die sooner than later.

But there will probably always be some smart guys left, although not as many as there used to be back in the days.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/21/11 06:17 PM

MYTH: Bugsy Siegel “invented” Las Vegas.
REALITY: Vegas was a boom town long before Siegel built the Flamingo Hotel.

The start of the Boulder Dam project. the largest in Nevada’s history, brought almost 10,000 workers to a site just 25 miles from Las Vegas. That’s when the Legislature legalized gambling statewide. The state received more than 200 applications for gaming licenses. And Vegas, Nevada’s fourth-largest city with 5,000 (count ‘em, 5,000) souls, became a boom town overnight.

When Siegel arrived in Vegas in 1941, he found at least seven hotel/casinos in operation, including two sizeable resorts—the El Rancho Vegas on 66 landscaped acres, and soon after, the Last Frontier, with 170 rooms. Some were air-conditioned. Siegel tried to muscle into El Rancho but was rebuffed by the owner, who lived to tell about it. He succeeded in buying the El Cortez with money from Meyer Lansky and his New York associates. They sold out a year later, doubling their money. Siegel next set his sights on a partially completed hotel on the outskirts of town. It was already called the Flamingo by its owner, Billy Wilkerson, a degenerate gambler whose debts left him unable to finish it. Siegel bought him out, and convinced his Cortez partners to reinvest their profits into the Flamingo. The new hotel lost money when it opened on December 27, 1946. Siegel closed it to finish building the sleeping rooms. It started making money when it reopened in the spring of 1947. But Siegel was soon assassinated, and the Flamingo was taken over by Moe Sedway and Gus Greenbaum, both big-time, Mob-connected gaming operators. It made money hand over fist.

Siegel’s main contributions to modern Las Vegas were to build the first hotel/casino in the glamorous Miami Beach style, and to use his notoriety to add “gangster mystique” to the average visitor’s concept of legalized gambling. The real “inventors” of Las Vegas were the upright Mormon state senators and representatives who had the foresight to legalize—and tax—an activity that had been going on in Nevada since it was first settled.
Posted By: EVL

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/22/11 11:58 PM

I do know that Bugsy took over a casino that was already being constructed and that would become the Flamingo - not sure of original name. The idea of headlining entertainment, four-star restaurants, treating guests like kings and queens, swimming pools and movie stars DID NOT originate with Bugsy, but with the original owner whose hotel Bugsy took over. I forget the guy's name but I know he was such a degenerate gambler, his friends told him to build his own casino and gamble there so he'd stop losing all his money. I think Bugsy gets more credit than he deserves for "inventing" Las Vegas. But former mobster Sonny Girard wrote a great post about Bugsy - here's the link: http://www.sonnysmobsocialclub.com/mobblog.html -- you have to keep scanning down until you reach the Bugsy post.
Posted By: EVL

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/23/11 12:01 AM

One other thing, and a pretty big one: Bugsy's headline-making assassination was a major, major factor in putting Las Vegas on the map. Those images of him on the couch, one eyeball blown out.... Bugsy dead might have even done more than Bugsy alive to make Las Vegas the gambling mecca it became.
Posted By: ht2

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/23/11 12:13 AM

Originally Posted By: EVL
I do know that Bugsy took over a casino that was already being constructed and that would become the Flamingo - not sure of original name.

The original owner of the Flamingo was William Wilkerson. Probably the first modern styled hotel and casino in Vegas called "The Meadow" was constructed by Anthony Cornero in 1931. The mob tried to shake him down for a percentage of the profits and when he refused, they allegedly burned the place down the same year.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/23/11 12:49 AM

Originally Posted By: EVL
I forget the guy's name but I know he was such a degenerate gambler, his friends told him to build his own casino and gamble there so he'd stop losing all his money.

As I mentioned in my post above, the original owner was Billy Wilkerson. He was the publisher of the Hollywood Reporter, an LA trade journal.

In the movie "Bugsy," he's depicted as coming to Vegas for the first time during WWII. In reality, Siegel made his first trip to the Coast in '33, and more or less moved there permanently in '35. He'd been to Vegas many times, trying to push the Mob's racing newswire on the gambling joints, before he got interested in owning a casino.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/23/11 01:36 PM

Interesting post, TB. I just recently saw the film again and also the "mobsters" documentary of Bugsy which shows how much liberties are taken in the film.

Btw, about Moe Sedway and Gus Greenbaum. For which people were they actually working? Lansky or Chicago?

In the mobsters documentary they say Greenbaum was an associate of the Outfit, which indicates that they were in on the hit on Siegel?
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/23/11 06:52 PM

Both Sedway and Greenbaum were associates of Lansky. Sedway operated out of NY, Greenbaum was with the Outfit. Tony Accardo specifically asked Greenbaum to manage the Riviera Hotel in Vegas. According to many stories, Greenbaum was murdered in '58 on orders from Accardo because he was skimming.

We'd have to infer that both were involved with Siegel's hit--especially after they showed up at the Flamingo about an hour after he was killed--but the triggerman or men have never been identified. The movie would have us believe that Mickey Cohen pulled the trigger, but I doubt it.
Posted By: Lilo

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/23/11 06:58 PM

I can't remember where I read it now but I read that Meyer had to give the ok/assent but that Chicago handled the contract. There was some tension between Chicago and Siegel over the proper sharing of Trans-America wire service and Chicago was eager to avenge the slight. I don't know if this was the case or not.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/23/11 08:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
The movie would have us believe that Mickey Cohen pulled the trigger, but I doubt it.


I totally missed that. How and when is this revealed? confused
Posted By: ht2

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/23/11 08:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull

We'd have to infer that both were involved with Siegel's hit--especially after they showed up at the Flamingo about an hour after he was killed--but the triggerman or men have never been identified. The movie would have us believe that Mickey Cohen pulled the trigger, but I doubt it.


I read that Sedway and Greenbaum took over the Flamingo within minutes before even police were aware of the murder. If they knew before the police back in CA, they were definitely tipped off. Unlike the film, Virginia Hill was out of harms way in Paris at the time of murder.
Posted By: WTFMaNg

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/20/11 09:21 PM

Some of this shit is absolutely ridiculous. I love how guys on the internet think they know so much about the streets when all they do is read the news and wikipedia.

Fuckin morons dont know shit...
Posted By: SC

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/20/11 11:59 PM

Originally Posted By: WTFMaNg
Some of this shit is absolutely ridiculous. I love how guys on the internet think they know so much about the streets when all they do is read the news and wikipedia.

Fuckin morons dont know shit...


Pretty amazing, huh? Some guys know the streets but don't know shit about how to act civilly on the internet.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/21/11 01:40 AM

Originally Posted By: WTFMaNg
Some of this shit is absolutely ridiculous. I love how guys on the internet think they know so much about the streets when all they do is read the news and wikipedia.

Fuckin morons dont know shit...

If the content here doesn't meet your high standards, go someplace else. We won't miss you.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/21/11 02:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: WTFMaNg
Some of this shit is absolutely ridiculous. I love how guys on the internet think they know so much about the streets when all they do is read the news and wikipedia.

Fuckin morons dont know shit...

If the content here doesn't meet your high standards, go someplace else. We won't miss you.

clapclapclapclap
Posted By: GaryH

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/24/11 06:43 PM

O.K, so I'm busy reading "Born to the Mob" which is about FRank Saggio who was the nephew of "Philly Lucky" Giaccone (one of the 3 murdered Bonnano capo's).

Frank Saggio claimed that early in his criminal career he and a couple of his buddies sometimes stole cars for Patty Testa.
He claimed to have been at the Gemini sometimes and that he sometimes saw Richard Kuklinksi!!!!!
Now I'm a big Kuklinski dis-believer but could this be the first time another mob guy has verified one of Kuklinski's claims?
The trouble I now have is that the Kuklinski book claimed that he always met DeMeo AWAY from the Gemini (usually in a diner somewhere)!

The plot thickens..........
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/25/11 12:35 AM

Originally Posted By: GaryH
O.K, so I'm busy reading "Born to the Mob" which is about FRank Saggio who was the nephew of "Philly Lucky" Giaccone (one of the 3 murdered Bonnano capo's).

Frank Saggio claimed that early in his criminal career he and a couple of his buddies sometimes stole cars for Patty Testa.
He claimed to have been at the Gemini sometimes and that he sometimes saw Richard Kuklinksi!!!!!
Now I'm a big Kuklinski dis-believer but could this be the first time another mob guy has verified one of Kuklinski's claims?
The trouble I now have is that the Kuklinski book claimed that he always met DeMeo AWAY from the Gemini (usually in a diner somewhere)!

The plot thickens..........


I've done a lot of research on Kuklinski myself. You are correct that he USUALLY met Roy away from the lounge. Typically at street corners, diners, or parking lots. However, Richard did do quite a bit of business in the lounge. There have been claims by him to help dispose of bodies inside the club. Pick up money. Give information. Anything of the sort. He spent a fair amount of time inside the lounge.

I'm not 100% sure about any previous guys admitting to seeing Richard or anything. Never really cared to do research on it. However, this is the first I've heard about it. So I would have to say that yes, this is probably one of the first verifications.
Posted By: phatmatress

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/25/11 01:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Jk987
Originally Posted By: GaryH
O.K, so I'm busy reading "Born to the Mob" which is about FRank Saggio who was the nephew of "Philly Lucky" Giaccone (one of the 3 murdered Bonnano capo's).

Frank Saggio claimed that early in his criminal career he and a couple of his buddies sometimes stole cars for Patty Testa.
He claimed to have been at the Gemini sometimes and that he sometimes saw Richard Kuklinksi!!!!!
Now I'm a big Kuklinski dis-believer but could this be the first time another mob guy has verified one of Kuklinski's claims?
The trouble I now have is that the Kuklinski book claimed that he always met DeMeo AWAY from the Gemini (usually in a diner somewhere)!

The plot thickens..........


I've done a lot of research on Kuklinski myself. You are correct that he USUALLY met Roy away from the lounge. Typically at street corners, diners, or parking lots. However, Richard did do quite a bit of business in the lounge. There have been claims by him to help dispose of bodies inside the club. Pick up money. Give information. Anything of the sort. He spent a fair amount of time inside the lounge.

I'm not 100% sure about any previous guys admitting to seeing Richard or anything. Never really cared to do research on it. However, this is the first I've heard about it. So I would have to say that yes, this is probably one of the first verifications.
im sorry to burst your bubble but the iceman is the biggest liar of the face of modern crime. the guy made the most ridicoulos claims ever! galante, costellano, hoffa, the list goes on and on. let me tell you the only associate involved in the killing of costelano was joe the german watts. and just like with jimmy burke, mr watts would have been a capo if his last name was wattio instead watts. there was one survelliance photo of the ice man at the gemini lounge. there was tons of surveilance on roy, the twins, and whoever else dared to be around those guys. if his claims were true the iceman would have went down with roy in 83.
Posted By: jvanley

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/29/11 01:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Jk987
Originally Posted By: GaryH
O.K, so I'm busy reading "Born to the Mob" which is about FRank Saggio who was the nephew of "Philly Lucky" Giaccone (one of the 3 murdered Bonnano capo's).

Frank Saggio claimed that early in his criminal career he and a couple of his buddies sometimes stole cars for Patty Testa.
He claimed to have been at the Gemini sometimes and that he sometimes saw Richard Kuklinksi!!!!!
Now I'm a big Kuklinski dis-believer but could this be the first time another mob guy has verified one of Kuklinski's claims?
The trouble I now have is that the Kuklinski book claimed that he always met DeMeo AWAY from the Gemini (usually in a diner somewhere)!

The plot thickens..........


I've done a lot of research on Kuklinski myself. You are correct that he USUALLY met Roy away from the lounge. Typically at street corners, diners, or parking lots. However, Richard did do quite a bit of business in the lounge. There have been claims by him to help dispose of bodies inside the club. Pick up money. Give information. Anything of the sort. He spent a fair amount of time inside the lounge.

I'm not 100% sure about any previous guys admitting to seeing Richard or anything. Never really cared to do research on it. However, this is the first I've heard about it. So I would have to say that yes, this is probably one of the first verifications.


It sounds to me that your "fair amount of research" that you did on the iceman was the following:

1. Watching the HBO special
2. Reading Phillip Carlo's Iceman

As Phat said, Dick (richard kuklinski) is the biggest known liar to ever have his words put into print. Infact, the FBI, State police, DEA and cooperating witnesses have NEVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER placed Dick at the Gemini for sure, 100 percent..... oh yea, NEVER EVER.

Put away Phillip Carlo's garbage and turn off HBO my man. You want to know what really went on inside the Gemini? Go buy Murder Machine read it cover to cover, sit down think for a bit, read it cover to cover again and then get on here and tell me how many times that book uses the name "Richard Kuklinski" or "the Iceman"....
Posted By: ONTARIO613

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/30/11 05:23 PM

was the iceman ever used as a witness i know he was supposed to witness against sammy G for a NJ cop murder but he died
Posted By: ONTARIO613

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/30/11 05:25 PM

maybe the iceman confesses to crimes he never did so that if they ever catch the real culprits theyl have reasonable doubt
Posted By: Palomita20

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/02/11 12:43 AM

It's been said that a uncultured man will kill his friends before his enemies and that's what mobsters do. The yuppie lawyers rake in the cash when these guys get arrested, even if they plead out the lawyers get paid well. Meanwhile the mob guys, while out on bail, have to keep earning to pay the lawyers/mob associates who get alot of their cash while assuming none of the risk. Than you get a prosecutor like Guiliani who makes a career of prosecuting you and has a nice run in politics to boot. The FBI guys? They run up fat expense accounts sitting at various locations conducting "surveillance" on the taxpayers dime. So at the end of the day the lawyers are putting their kids through law school, creating the next generation of high-class shysters, the FBI guys have nice nest eggs from all the promotions and work they've gotten chasing the mob guys around and the mob guy is sitting in prison with his family on the outside. A very bad life. To speak nothing of the stress of being prosecuted, prison, possibility of unexpected death and being ordered to kill.
Posted By: ronnie_little

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/30/11 10:26 PM

This is a very informative post and it helps newbie's like myself. Thanks again.........
Posted By: Mickey_MeatBalls_DeMonica

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/17/11 09:23 AM

MOB MYTH: Women and Family are sacrosanct (they really mean "my family asshole! Not yours!")

I dont really want to get into cases of cavorting mobsters and such, but there's one example that I want to reference in particular.

Santo Trafficante Jr. was/is considered mob royalty by some, perhaps one of the most succesful bosses ever; be that as it may, the guy was a snake. As ruthless as he was in Tampa (as exemplified by his families part in the so called Bolita Wars) as crafty as he was in Havana (where he made millions over the years) to his diplomacy towards other borgata's, its all in the business aint it?

Well hows this for old school mob values. Now Frank Ragano isn't a mobster, and some of his claims are a little on the dubious side. One thing that rings true for me though is his account of Trafficante's eventual proposition towards his wife of many years.

Ragano, the young Sicilian lawyer, had been taken under Trafficante's wing many years ago, as "house counsel" in a way to Trafficante. Trafficante had watched him court and later marry his partner (the same woman that was supposedly introduced to Tommy Lucchese, who apparantly insisted on buying her a fur coat, after she and Ragano accompanied Trafficante to a meeting with the NY boss).

Anyway, after decades of service, there was a falling out, precipitated in part, according to Ragano, by Trafficante's entreaty to his (Ragano's) wife to leave her husband, take their child and start a new life with him as Daddy. She is said to have politely declined.

Fucked up right? Dubious as some of Ragano's claim can be, and as much as he was motivated to "embiggen" (thanks you The Simpsons) Trafficante's spirit, this sounds a little too personal. There was some further nastiness when Ragano refused to represent Trafficante in some of his latter-year legal troubles, which led to threats against Ragano's son.

Now Trafficante was Old School. And he had no compunction over fucking over and later threatening to kill the first born son of a man that had for decades considered him padrino and paisan. Thats the mafia for you eh?
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/20/11 05:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Mickey_MeatBalls_DeMonica
MOB MYTH: Women and Family are sacrosanct (they really mean "my family asshole! Not yours!")


shhh wink

Another fine example of what you say...

Vito Genovese and Anna Vernotico! lol
Posted By: BarrettM

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/20/11 08:09 PM

How about its sister rule, no harming women?

When Gus Greenbaum refused to run the Riviera Hotel for Tony Accardo, his innocent sister was murdered, and when he later began skimming and refused town, his throat was slit, his innocent wife as well. And this was after showgirl Estelle Carey was burned alive as a message to her informant boyfriend. When Jimmy Burke associate Angelo Sepe had finally made it through all the violence following the Lufthansa Heist, he decided to rob a mob connected dealer. He was shot with a gun with a silencer. His sleeping girlfriend who had obviously witnessed and heard nothing was killed as well. Worst of all, when Roy DeMeo murdered a female witness and was called on the carpet about it, he told Paul Castellano, 'she might have talked'. The old school Castellano just shrugged. And let's not forget the rapists in high positions, like Christie Tick and Joe Adonis. Forget the honor in the movies, the mob is no more moral than the street gangs in LA.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/20/11 08:11 PM

Agreed.
Posted By: ht2

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/20/11 08:27 PM

Originally Posted By: BarrettM
And let's not forget the rapists in high positions, like Christie Tick and Joe Adonis. Forget the honor in the movies, the mob is no more moral than the street gangs in LA.


Generally I agree also. Another example would be Janice Drake, who had the misfortune of being in the company of Lil Augie Pisano when he was killed. A recent author (Allan R. May) debunked the Adonis rape story though. The story was traced to an early mob author who made it up, and later authors simply repeated it.
Posted By: GaryH

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/20/11 09:03 PM

The Drake murder was Tony Mirra's handiwork wasnt it?
Posted By: ht2

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/22/11 09:15 PM

Originally Posted By: GaryH
The Drake murder was Tony Mirra's handiwork wasnt it?

Supposedly he confessed his involvement to one of his lady friends. I find it hard to believe he would confess a heinous crime to a civilian. I've read about a couple of other possible theories.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/23/11 04:00 PM

Originally Posted By: BarrettM
Forget the honor in the movies, the mob is no more moral than the street gangs in LA.

Smart kid wink smile.
Posted By: Mickey_MeatBalls_DeMonica

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/14/11 04:03 AM

MOB MYTH: Its all one big criminal conspiracy.

REALITY: Even though back in the day alot more guys knew alot more other guys (seeing as it was well before assimiliation, immigrants were still connected to the old country, and through ties sanguinary and of town life knew the history, people and rep's of those old-world connect's very well) it was still 90% opportunistic.

But even then, even with the famous Commission in full effect, ruling on disputes across the nation...it was for the most part just random gangsters from around the country that knew each other through friends of friends. Its not like it was all figured out in the Old Country that "so and so from Palermo, yousa guys gonna do dis and so and so from Corleone, yousa gonna do dat, and youse Calabrese? Yousa gonna blow up, and youse Napolitan? Yousa gonna kill each udder"

Modern day: Just because NY and Chicago are still viable does not mean that every two bit connected bookmaker around the country is kowtowing and kicking up to them in some way..

In fact, historically rank and file NY wiseguys themselves have been unaware of such seemingly crucial facts such as which exact crime family they actually "operated" under as well as who exactly was the actual boss, or which "rival" guys were actually made etc.

Of course, a guy knows who he's kickin' up to and who his friends are; but a made guy is not supposed to introduce himself as a friend; there's instances of guys who knew the other guy was connected, but to follow the rules was not allowed to introduce himself. He had to look for another guy that knew them both. And dont think the average wiseguy gave a f**k about whether or not his crew was known as part of the "Genovese" of "Lucchese" of whatever.

Taking it further, people assume that just because this guy and that guy are both Sicilan/Calabrian/Napolitan/otherwise Italian or LCN that they are automatically on the same page, are working together in some devious master plan and/or had some seen some random murder, indictment or deportation charge in advance enough to set up some far reaching contingency.

Its bullshit. Their criminals. Thats what they have in common.
Posted By: The Irish Mafia 28

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/19/11 10:31 PM

Not sure if this has been discussed yet, but I've been away from the boards for a long time.

From what I've gathered in "Joey the Hitman" (reliability disputed), a lot of the myths that came from the Godfather and Goodfellas are still in place -- such as taking care of the family of a wiseguy in the pokie. I mean, those myths gotta come from somewhere and we can't base the entire actions of the Mafia on some anecdotal evidence about one or two high-ranking people.
Posted By: Jimmy_Two_Times

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/03/11 03:51 PM

Hey All... I'm a new to the forum and have to say that I look forward to future discourse. You guys are very knowledgable and I'm anxious to learn more.
Posted By: NickyScarfo

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/03/11 11:14 PM

Welcome aboard Jimmy!
Posted By: ukthesis

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 11/27/11 03:45 PM


I believe it was also used sparingly in the 1970s, but it's uses came into their own from about 1981.

RICO has been used against white collar crime as well, which has caused a lot of controversy.
Posted By: ukthesis

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 11/27/11 03:47 PM


I've no idea where these error-ridden statements came from but they need to read my book:

Luciano also recognized that help should be welcomed from any useful sources, including non-Sicilians and even non-Italians. That’s why he nominated Al Capone as chairman of the Commission, and included Jews like Meyer Lansky, Lepke Bucholter, Dutch Shultz and Bugsy Siegel in Commission meetings.
Posted By: Jimmy_Two_Times

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 12/12/11 05:22 PM

Hey UK, yeah I never heard that before...Whomever said/wrote that must be a little whacked in the noggin'...
Posted By: olivant

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 01/03/12 12:49 AM

Does anyone know the role that the DeCalvacante family played in the casinos once NJ authroized gambling? TV specials indicate that the Atlantic City casinos were the playground of the NY and Philly families.
Posted By: ukwiseguy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 01/05/12 03:14 PM

Woops wrong thread.

Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/08/12 07:03 PM

Respect!
Posted By: DickNose_Moltasanti

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/08/12 07:12 PM

Whats your book called?
Originally Posted By: ukthesis

I've no idea where these error-ridden statements came from but they need to read my book:

Luciano also recognized that help should be welcomed from any useful sources, including non-Sicilians and even non-Italians. That’s why he nominated Al Capone as chairman of the Commission, and included Jews like Meyer Lansky, Lepke Bucholter, Dutch Shultz and Bugsy Siegel in Commission meetings.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/08/12 07:39 PM

Originally Posted By: DickNose_Moltasanti
Whats your book called?
Originally Posted By: ukthesis

I've no idea where these error-ridden statements came from but they need to read my book:

Luciano also recognized that help should be welcomed from any useful sources, including non-Sicilians and even non-Italians. That’s why he nominated Al Capone as chairman of the Commission, and included Jews like Meyer Lansky, Lepke Bucholter, Dutch Shultz and Bugsy Siegel in Commission meetings.


It´s David Critchley´s "The Origin of Organized Crime".
The book is extremly interesting. Very well researched.
With all the researching, it took the author close to 10 years to write it.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/17/12 11:28 AM

Here´s another myth that has been circulating the internet for many years. The man depicted here in the attachment is NOT Salvatore Maranzano. It´s actually Salvatore Messina who was a gangster located in London, England.
There are pictures of the slain Maranzano´s body, but none of them shows his face. Nobody has ever managed to find a picture of Maranzano´s face which is quite fascinating but frustrating at the same time.


Description: Salvatore Messina, NOT Salvatore Maranzano
Attached picture Salvatore_Maranzano.jpg
Posted By: NickyScarfo

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/17/12 12:05 PM

What was this guy doing in London England?!
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/17/12 12:11 PM

Originally Posted By: NickyScarfo
What was this guy doing in London England?!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messina_Brothers
Posted By: NickyScarfo

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/17/12 12:33 PM

Wow that's interesting!
Posted By: Chopper2012

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/26/12 11:30 AM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Here´s another myth that has been circulating the internet for many years. The man depicted here in the attachment is NOT Salvatore Maranzano. It´s actually Salvatore Messina who was a gangster located in London, England.
There are pictures of the slain Maranzano´s body, but none of them shows his face. Nobody has ever managed to find a picture of Maranzano´s face which is quite fascinating but frustrating at the same time.



Harry doesn't the Bonnano book have pictures of Maranzano in it? Joe Bonnano spoke so highly of him, seems to me he should have had some private pictures of the man.

Would be interesting to see his face, the man is an important part of Mob History.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/26/12 02:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Chopper2012
Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Here´s another myth that has been circulating the internet for many years. The man depicted here in the attachment is NOT Salvatore Maranzano. It´s actually Salvatore Messina who was a gangster located in London, England.
There are pictures of the slain Maranzano´s body, but none of them shows his face. Nobody has ever managed to find a picture of Maranzano´s face which is quite fascinating but frustrating at the same time.



Harry doesn't the Bonnano book have pictures of Maranzano in it? Joe Bonnano spoke so highly of him, seems to me he should have had some private pictures of the man.

Would be interesting to see his face, the man is an important part of Mob History.



Indeed.
He is so often mentioned, not only in articles found on the net but also in many, many mob books published throughout the years.
So it is surprising that there is no photo available that shows his face properly.
He was never arrested, so no mugshots of him exists. I know that many researchers have contacted Maranzano´s today living relatives but to no avail. Either these relatives do not possess any pictures of him or they are not willing to provide them with any pictures. Which is understandable.
However, there are, to my knowledge, three snapshots of his dead body lying on the floor of his Park Avenue office. These are genuine, since they accord to a sketch made by the New
York county coroner’s office at the time of his assassination in 1931.
The thrid one appears in the Bonanno book, but is not the best of quality and it shows only his torso if I´m not mistaken.




Description: Maranzano
Attached picture Salvatore_Maranzanomurderscene.jpg

Description: Maranzano
Attached picture 04_05_06_maranzano.jpg
Posted By: Chopper2012

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/26/12 02:54 PM

Thanks for the pictures Hairy.

I was familiar with the first one, but never saw the second one.

I have been meaning to get the Joe Bonnano book, but something always stopped me. As is always the case with autobiography's, they are self serving. Whether its written by a president or a mafia don, its always the same case.

Maranzano is a fascinating character. I would like to read an biography of the man, but i don't think one exists? Probably too little information available.
Posted By: Lenin_and_McCarthy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/26/12 07:04 PM

Not just the internet. It's in "Mafia Dynasty" too.
Posted By: Old_School_Arm

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/28/12 01:22 AM

Originally Posted By: BarrettM
How about its sister rule, no harming women?

When Gus Greenbaum refused to run the Riviera Hotel for Tony Accardo, his innocent sister was murdered, and when he later began skimming and refused town, his throat was slit, his innocent wife as well. And this was after showgirl Estelle Carey was burned alive as a message to her informant boyfriend. When Jimmy Burke associate Angelo Sepe had finally made it through all the violence following the Lufthansa Heist, he decided to rob a mob connected dealer. He was shot with a gun with a silencer. His sleeping girlfriend who had obviously witnessed and heard nothing was killed as well. Worst of all, when Roy DeMeo murdered a female witness and was called on the carpet about it, he told Paul Castellano, 'she might have talked'. The old school Castellano just shrugged. And let's not forget the rapists in high positions, like Christie Tick and Joe Adonis. Forget the honor in the movies, the mob is no more moral than the street gangs in LA.


Harm no women is total BS. The body count in the wars in Upstate NY in the late 70s and 80s included 2 women. Dawn Grillo and Carla Faliciano
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/04/12 08:48 AM

Hey Turnbull first i have to say thanks a million times for this post,it clears many misunderstandings!I have a question about the Bruno murder in Philly,was it about the drug bussiness or the casino's in Atlantic City?And was it really arranged by Funzi Tieri?Thanks in advance
cheers
Posted By: EVL

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/15/12 06:59 PM

I want to do a story about this but no offense I need more than your word... can you give me your source on this?
Posted By: EVL

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/15/12 07:00 PM

I am referring to the pic of Maranzano not being Maranzano in my above post
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/15/12 09:44 PM

Originally Posted By: EVL
I want to do a story about this but no offense I need more than your word... can you give me your source on this?


EVL, Check your PM box. I have sent you a link to a magazine article I think I´m not allowed to openly promote in here.
Posted By: oleh

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/03/12 10:34 AM

Its a myth that mafiosos lives a glamorous life. the reality is that they live in hiding and fear people from their own organisation more than they fear the police.

The typical killing of a mafia member is done by a close friend of him. This is the preferred method of the mafia.
Posted By: FrankMazola

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/12/12 12:34 AM

Question, not really a myth… is Salvatore Clemente (Lucchese rat associate) retarded? Or just have a speech impediment all a Sylvester Stallone?
Posted By: Skygee

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/15/12 07:46 AM

I've got alot of questions.

Could someone explain in detail what a "Union" is?

What are the average kick-ups for a medium sized mob of like 10-20 people? For Associates, Soldiers, Capo's etc.

I'd thought the made Ceremony consisted of just your blood, no also the Bosses blood?

As well as anything else anyone would like to add to my questions.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/15/12 05:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Skygee
I've got alot of questions.

Could someone explain in detail what a "Union" is?

What are the average kick-ups for a medium sized mob of like 10-20 people? For Associates, Soldiers, Capo's etc.

I'd thought the made Ceremony consisted of just your blood, no also the Bosses blood?

As well as anything else anyone would like to add to my questions.


With risk of misunderstanding your first question...a union is an association of workers or employees. The association is supposed to take care of its members against employers (roughly said).

And no, the boss does not shed blood in induction ceremonies. The bosses have already done that when they were made.

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=640273#Post640273
Posted By: Mickey_MeatBalls_DeMonica

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/17/12 01:12 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Originally Posted By: EVL
I want to do a story about this but no offense I need more than your word... can you give me your source on this?


EVL, Check your PM box. I have sent you a link to a magazine article I think I´m not allowed to openly promote in here.


What on Earth do you mean by "openly promote"? As long as you link to the source and/or cite the author in the reproduction, why would you not be able to reproduce an article on the public record? Was there a conversation with the Don that I missed?

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles


Originally Posted By: Skygee
I've got alot of questions.

Could someone explain in detail what a "Union" is?

What are the average kick-ups for a medium sized mob of like 10-20 people? For Associates, Soldiers, Capo's etc.

I'd thought the made Ceremony consisted of just your blood, no also the Bosses blood?

As well as anything else anyone would like to add to my questions.


With risk of misunderstanding your first question...a union is an association of workers or employees. The association is supposed to take care of its members against employers (roughly said).

And no, the boss does not shed blood in induction ceremonies. The bosses have already done that when they were made.

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=640273#Post640273


Basically, a Union is set up by workers and representatives of a certain industy to ensure fair wages, fair policies and safe work practices for said industry. For example, there are unions for the construction industry, the service industry, the transport industy, etc. Typically, in order to belong to and benefit from the union's policies, workers will pay a nominal fee out of their weekly wages; union 'dues'.

By infilatrating a particular union, mobsters are able to circumvent certain policies (such as charging labour at below the union rate and ignoring safe work policies) and benefit from said dues or union fees with paid jobs, allowing other mobsters to list a legitimate source of income despite not really working at all, ie; no-show jobs or no-work jobs. Hence the term 'labor racketeering'.

As for the kick ups, as has been discussed many times before on this forum, there is often no particular set-rate; a soldier kicks up a portion of whatever it is he earns. Some earn more than others, so by correlation some kick up nmore then others. Following on this, the mobster who engages in the more lucrative rackets is likley to wield more influence and get away with more than the mobster of the same ranking who is involved in less profitable rackets. To paraphrase about a hundred mediocre rappers, "Its all about the benjamins"

As for the making ceremony, it seems like there are a bunch of different versions, depending on which Family and which member is conducting the ceremony. One reads about literal blood rites (where blood is drawn and smeared on the Saint, then burned) to simply burning the Saint, to elaborate counting rituals meant to assign a mentor to the somewhat pathetic (Mike Rizzitello was made by Jimmy the Weasel and 'The Bomp' Bompensiero in the back of a car in California, amid cigar smoke and a the interior light. 'Baldy Mike' Spinelli was made into the Lucchese Family by Gaspipe Casso in a NY prison. They burned toilet paper instead of a Saint and kissed rolleyes )
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/17/12 03:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Mickey_MeatBalls_DeMonica
Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Originally Posted By: EVL
I want to do a story about this but no offense I need more than your word... can you give me your source on this?


EVL, Check your PM box. I have sent you a link to a magazine article I think I´m not allowed to openly promote in here.


What on Earth do you mean by "openly promote"? As long as you link to the source and/or cite the author in the reproduction, why would you not be able to reproduce an article on the public record? Was there a conversation with the Don that I missed?



No, there was no conversation with the Don. Simply put, I wasn´t sure if I was allowed to post a link to the article, which one have to pay for in order to read. I´m not (or wasn´t) sure that would have considered to be "legal" on here. Didn´t want to be a subject of the moderators wrath. That´s all.
Posted By: DeMeo

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/17/12 03:51 PM

The picture of Salvatore Maranzano isn't of him. Its of another mobster from Britain.

Maranzano wore a mustache, the picture shows no such thing.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/17/12 04:13 PM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
[quote=DeMeo]The picture of Salvatore Maranzano isn't of him. Its of another mobster from Britain.

Maranzano wore a mustache, the picture shows no such thing.


You are correct about the picture. But how do you know Maranzano wore a mustache? confused
Posted By: DeMeo

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/17/12 06:17 PM

He was called a Mustache Pete. Even the movies the Youngest Godfather and Mobsters show him with one.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/17/12 06:45 PM

Originally Posted By: DeMeo
He was called a Mustache Pete. Even the movies the Youngest Godfather and Mobsters show him with one.


"Mustache Pete" was a derogatory term used by the younger mobsters when referring to the older generation in general. The older ones didn´t necessarily wore mustaches.
No photo of him has been publicized exept of the few snapshots taken on his dead corpse. And none of them show his face properly. Hollywood would not have known how he looked like.
You can find the photos of his dead corpse in the "Rare photos" thread in here.
Posted By: Antonio

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/12/12 08:34 PM

I know that people say Omerta is a mob myth these days but you do get those disciplined mobsters who would never rat out on the family. Some won't even accept plea deals, sure snitches are way more common but is it safe to say that there were as many mob snitches today as there were 30 years ago??
Posted By: DickNose_Moltasanti

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/12/12 09:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Antonio
I know that people say Omerta is a mob myth these days but you do get those disciplined mobsters who would never rat out on the family. Some won't even accept plea deals, sure snitches are way more common but is it safe to say that there were as many mob snitches today as there were 30 years ago??


I would say that's a bit of an overstatement. There are more experienced posters on here that could offer insight in comparing 30 years ago to the present day.
Posted By: Ted

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/04/12 10:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Vinny’s now making even more money. He kicks a nice piece of it upstairs to his crew chief. In turn, the crew chief passes a cut to his capo, who shares his piece with the Don. Pretty soon, that whole East Harlem operation, and everyone in it, is looking very good to the Don. But the Don’s not dumb—he has a good idea where the money originates. He hears about a drug bust that netted some members of a Jamaican posse in Brooklyn. He mentions to his capos, “Hey, it’s a real good thing that we have a ban on selling drugs in our borgata, and a death penalty for violators. Otherwise we’d wind up like them no-good, undisciplined mulinians over there.” The capos pass the word on down. Vinny’s crew chief, who knows what’s going on, says to Vinny, “Uh, by the way, you ain’t sellin’ drugs, are you?” “Me?” replies Vinny, indignantly. “Sellin’ f*****’ s**t to a buncha lowlifes on the street? Not on your f*****’ life!” Vinny told the literal truth: he’s not actually selling drugs on the street—he’s just wholesaling drugs to the guys who are selling them. As far as he’s concerned, he’s not violating the family’s ban on “selling drugs.” His crew chief is satisfied—and so’s everyone over him. They’re all getting their piece of Vinny’s action. As long as Vinny’s producing money, they’re content to look the other way. If he gets caught, he knows they’ll try to kill him before he can rat them out. Everyone knows the score.

I don't think the hypothetical situation you described his banned. Officially or otherwise. Even after the 1950s ban, Mafia families were still distributing drugs. They just didn't want their own guys selling it (which a lot of them did anyways). Financing a drug operation is different, though. In the situation above, he bought the heroin, but had it distributed through a 3rd party. In your example, he didn't even have to touch the drugs. I don't think there is anything to hide from his superiors. It's not like the Cherry Hill Gambinos or anything who actually ran drug operations. That was out-right ignoring the ban, but Castellano didn't care.
Posted By: Ted

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/04/12 10:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull

Oh, and let's not forget your new "brothers" in the Mafia--the guys who kissed you on the cheek when you got made, and now refer to you as "a friend of ours." Every one of them has contacts in law enforcement that they feed info to in return for being left alone to pursue their own rackets. As soon as your ceremony was completed, they were on the phone to their favorite cops, informing them of the newest member of the Mob. Suddenly you're going to get more attention from law enforcement personnel than a visiting head of state. Your "brothers" will see you as insurance for them when they commit high profile crimes: they'll tip off their police pals that you did the dirty deeds.

This seems like complete BS. In a world were guys are killed simply under the suspicions of being an informant, how is it that every guy is talking to the police. Do you have any proof for this?
Posted By: jace

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/05/12 08:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Ted
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Vinny’s now making even more money. He kicks a nice piece of it upstairs to his crew chief. In turn, the crew chief passes a cut to his capo, who shares his piece with the Don. Pretty soon, that whole East Harlem operation, and everyone in it, is looking very good to the Don. But the Don’s not dumb—he has a good idea where the money originates. He hears about a drug bust that netted some members of a Jamaican posse in Brooklyn. He mentions to his capos, “Hey, it’s a real good thing that we have a ban on selling drugs in our borgata, and a death penalty for violators. Otherwise we’d wind up like them no-good, undisciplined mulinians over there.” The capos pass the word on down. Vinny’s crew chief, who knows what’s going on, says to Vinny, “Uh, by the way, you ain’t sellin’ drugs, are you?” “Me?” replies Vinny, indignantly. “Sellin’ f*****’ s**t to a buncha lowlifes on the street? Not on your f*****’ life!” Vinny told the literal truth: he’s not actually selling drugs on the street—he’s just wholesaling drugs to the guys who are selling them. As far as he’s concerned, he’s not violating the family’s ban on “selling drugs.” His crew chief is satisfied—and so’s everyone over him. They’re all getting their piece of Vinny’s action. As long as Vinny’s producing money, they’re content to look the other way. If he gets caught, he knows they’ll try to kill him before he can rat them out. Everyone knows the score.

I don't think the hypothetical situation you described his banned. Officially or otherwise. Even after the 1950s ban, Mafia families were still distributing drugs. They just didn't want their own guys selling it (which a lot of them did anyways). Financing a drug operation is different, though. In the situation above, he bought the heroin, but had it distributed through a 3rd party. In your example, he didn't even have to touch the drugs. I don't think there is anything to hide from his superiors. It's not like the Cherry Hill Gambinos or anything who actually ran drug operations. That was out-right ignoring the ban, but Castellano didn't care.


Castellano cared enough that he wanted to kill Gotti's friend. didn't Gotti kill Casteallno over some police tapes that would have shown his friend sold drugs agaisnt Castellano's orders?
Posted By: Vinny_Jackson

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/06/12 05:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Many people on these boards, especially younger people, ask questions or make statements about Mob life that are often myths--not realities. I'd like to start a thread that helps clear up the myths. I'll post occasionally, and ask you to post your own ideas, thoughts, explanations. Here's the first:

BEING "MADE" IN THE MOB IS DANGEROUS TO LIFE AND LIBERTY

Many younger people believe that getting "made" in the Mafia is the ultimate glory. Nothing could be further from the truth: Getting "made" is just about the worst thing that could happen to anyone:

First you have to serve an "apprenticeship," during which...

"Honored Society"? You'd be better off washing dishes for a living.


First off, pretty good post. It's as full of myth and opinion, as any other story dealing the 'mafia.' Second, If anyone here is really young, and looking to get 'made' by reading posts on an anonymous website, I doubt they know any real gangsters.

The scene was always filled with rats and worse. It's why there has always been so much bloodshed and killings. All cities have not been alike. More violence in NYC families during some decades while Boston/New England remained relatively calm.

Final thought: most I know ended up badly, but some had a good run.

best
Running Man
Vinny Jackson
Posted By: Vinny_Jackson

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/06/12 05:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Antonio
I know that people say Omerta is a mob myth these days but you do get those disciplined mobsters who would never rat out on the family. Some won't even accept plea deals, sure snitches are way more common but is it safe to say that there were as many mob snitches today as there were 30 years ago??

The thing is LE plays people like fools. Some people rat, others don't, some make deals that they think benefits them, only to find those deals used against them and -- flip.

Truth: never deal with LE without speaking to a lawyer first.
Posted By: Fat_Ralph

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/19/12 10:51 PM

Damn, this thread is excellent, alot of things I already knew, but its still a great read when ya stuck at work for 18hrs...........
Posted By: Skygee

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/21/12 04:17 AM

So I was watching the Soprano's and I began thinking.

That if a Boss is apart of a Commission and he kills a made guy he could answer to the commission and say the guy was a rat and it's okay correct?

But then I was also thinking what if the Boss kills a made guy without consulting the Commission and he wasn't a rat, dealing drugs etc.

As well as if the Boss isn't apart of a Commission technically he doesn't need permission correct?
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/21/12 07:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Skygee
So I was watching the Soprano's and I began thinking.

That if a Boss is apart of a Commission and he kills a made guy he could answer to the commission and say the guy was a rat and it's okay correct?

But then I was also thinking what if the Boss kills a made guy without consulting the Commission and he wasn't a rat, dealing drugs etc.

As well as if the Boss isn't apart of a Commission technically he doesn't need permission correct?


The Commission is non existent today. Back in the day, a boss was free to order any killing of a member of his Family if he found it to be necessary, without answering to the Commission.
However, killing a boss or a boss ordering the killing of another boss, without the Commission´s permission was a BIG no no.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/22/12 01:09 AM

Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Back in the day, a boss was free to order any killing of a member of his Family if he found it to be necessary, without answering to the Commission.

Yes. A made guy couldn't kill another made guy without the boss's permission, but the boss could do anything within his family. That's why it's good to be the king...

Quote:
However, killing a boss or a boss ordering the killing of another boss, without the Commission´s permission was a BIG no no.

Supposed to be a big no no. Albert Anastasia whacked his boss, Vincent Mangano, and simply showed up at the next Commission meeting, plopped himself down in Mangano's chair--and no one said boo to him. John Gotti socialized his plan to whack Castellano and Bilotti with key members of the Gambino Family and certain key members of other families (but not their Dons). No one said no to him. The Commission took no action against Gotti, probably because they'd been afraid that Castellano would rat them out rather than go to prison. The only exception was Chin Gigante, who arranged for Gotti's car to be bombed. His then-consigliere, Frankie DiCicco, was killed instead. Giganti was acting on his own, not on behalf of the Commission.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/22/12 11:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull

Supposed to be a big no no. Albert Anastasia whacked his boss, Vincent Mangano, and simply showed up at the next Commission meeting, plopped himself down in Mangano's chair--and no one said boo to him.


Anastasia was called on the carpet and questioned about Vince Mangano´s disappearence by the Commission. When he spoke, his cleverly chosen words (probably instructed by his good friend Frank Costello) told of niether denial nor guilt. He hinted that Mangano had been plotting to kill him. Frank Costello also spoke before the Commission and vouched for him. So Anastasia survived by claiming selfdefence (a tactic that Genovese wanted to use later to justify the planned rub out of Costello) but never admtted to the rumors that he was behind the Mangano disappearence.
Posted By: Sonny_Black

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/23/12 10:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
The only exception was Chin Gigante, who arranged for Gotti's car to be bombed. His then-consigliere, Frankie DiCicco, was killed instead. Giganti was acting on his own, not on behalf of the Commission.


The boss of the most powerful family does have certain privileges..
Posted By: Dapper_Don

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/24/12 01:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: HairyKnuckles
Back in the day, a boss was free to order any killing of a member of his Family if he found it to be necessary, without answering to the Commission.

Yes. A made guy couldn't kill another made guy without the boss's permission, but the boss could do anything within his family. That's why it's good to be the king...

Quote:
However, killing a boss or a boss ordering the killing of another boss, without the Commission´s permission was a BIG no no.

Supposed to be a big no no. Albert Anastasia whacked his boss, Vincent Mangano, and simply showed up at the next Commission meeting, plopped himself down in Mangano's chair--and no one said boo to him. John Gotti socialized his plan to whack Castellano and Bilotti with key members of the Gambino Family and certain key members of other families (but not their Dons). No one said no to him. The Commission took no action against Gotti, probably because they'd been afraid that Castellano would rat them out rather than go to prison. The only exception was Chin Gigante, who arranged for Gotti's car to be bombed. His then-consigliere, Frankie DiCicco, was killed instead. Giganti was acting on his own, not on behalf of the Commission.


Actually Gotti had the support of the bosses-in-waiting of the other families (except the Genovese) e.g. Orena, Casso, Massino, and also Gambino consigliere Joseph Gallo at the time. Gotti and Ruggiero obtained the approval of the Colombo and Bonanno families, while DeCicco secured the backing of the Luccheses.
Posted By: Wilson

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/20/12 05:35 PM

Instead of Hollywood releasing these movies that glorify the mob, how about releasing a movie about how the mob really is? It would be a really intense drama and I think that it would be good for everyone if a movie came out like this. Show a made guy having to miss out on holidays with his families or having to kill his best friend for the mob. Show him being treated like shit by his fellow associates.
Posted By: jace

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/21/12 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Wilson
Instead of Hollywood releasing these movies that glorify the mob, how about releasing a movie about how the mob really is? It would be a really intense drama and I think that it would be good for everyone if a movie came out like this. Show a made guy having to miss out on holidays with his families or having to kill his best friend for the mob. Show him being treated like shit by his fellow associates.


Did you see Casino and Goodfellas ? You just described those two, and there are others, mostly low budget. Even The godfather which some say makes Mafia look good, had betrayals, even Fredo and Michael betraying each other.
Posted By: Jimmy_Two_Times

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/21/12 03:48 PM

You got that right Jace..I think the Sorpranos did a pretty good job not gilding the lilly in places as well... when Christopher got made he found out how hard it was to actually MAKE money to kick upstairs...

I don't know if that's all valid, but for me it would seem very likely that the life is not as glamorous as we were meant to believe at one point.
Posted By: SEAN_SOUTH

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/04/12 08:42 PM

One of the biggest mob myths is that it was 'the St. Valentine's Days Massacre' that finished Bugs Moran as a power in the Chicago underworld.

He held on and slayed many men that he felt betrayed him and he had strong alliances in St. Louis too. The St. Valentine's Day Massacre hit was a big setback but the reality is that Bugs Moran held onto North Side territory and it was only law enforcement's insistence on hounding him out of town that eventually made his reign in the Chicago underworld untenable.

He actually outlived Capone, had a fearsome reputation as a bank robber and was well aligned with all the big hitters in that era who plyed their trade so famously in the 30's, Dillinger of course foremost amongst the most legendary names but there were many others too.

George Bugs Moran also attempted to infiltrate the LA underworld and again it was his only his status as "Public Enenmy Number One" that prevented him from doing so.

Years later there was an FBI Files related program about the era that defined Bugs Moran by the moniker "Public Enemy Number One" and even after the St. Valentine's Day massacre he remained number one on the police radar despite the rise to prominence of the Outfit.

Whether this reflected the reality or whether the new power in Chicago the Outfit had the Feds payed off may be a contributing factor that sealed his fate in organised crime it could be argued but often in hindsight things are simplified in terms of one hit and Bugs Moran was a very tough crook, as many of them were in them days.

They had to be but Bugs Moran was more determined than most and his adventures after the St. Valentine's Day Massacre are often left unmerited when if you read the catalogues of his crimes, the many gun battles,, murders and connections he had after the all time no.1 hit then I think many would be surprised at how revealing this chapter of his life turned out to be.

Quite handy with his fists too, once two muggers tried to rob him at knife point and he knocked them both out with two straight punches, a witness told the press, thowing his coat over one like a net and then busting the other's jaw and leaving him sunbathing in the street.

Very underestimated underworld figure in my opinion. One tough old school mobster for sure.
Posted By: NickyEyes1

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/05/12 04:17 AM

So does anyone know when the north side mob became defunct?
Posted By: Camarel

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/05/12 10:56 AM

Originally Posted By: NickyEyes1
So does anyone know when the north side mob became defunct?


Soon after the repeal of prohibition
Posted By: SEAN_SOUTH

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/05/12 04:00 PM

In a Waukegan Tavern E. Barnett, a former North Side Gang hauler who had left the gang's employ bumped into a reflective George Moran who ruminated on Clark street (the massacre). "Those were good boys" he said to Moran.

Moran said that he hadn't forgotten and had gone some way to eveen the score despite the heavy police surveillance that was suffocating every move he seemed to be making at the time. He told the old North Sider that he had gone to the East Coast to kill Bob Carey, the main lookout who called the North Clark Street killers into action on that fateful day.

Carey and his girlfirend were found stretched out on the flooor and riddled with bullets. The murder was never solved.

The North Siders kept interests in the area well into the 30's . Bugs Moran wanted to move his gang to LA to move away from the glare of the law, really putting the fear into local villains and small time crooks who pleaded with the police to prevent Moran from setting up there.

Moran's links to St. Louis were strong and as his interests moved to the fringe of Chicago, the racetracks (owned by O'Brien in collusion with corrupt policial officials) and other clubs and locations the North Side Gang increasingly became dispersed, fragmented, went into bank robbery or became in later years absorbed into the East St. Louis organised crime faction which was run by Buster Wortman who had peace with the Outfit and stayed within his own territory.

The North Siders had contacts in Ohio, New York, Florida and California. When Frank Foster was arrested after a raid in the early 30's a letter was found that convinced the authorities the North Siders were moving in on LA. The LA Times noted "Moran has been in Los Angeles on more than one occasion. The authorities believe he may also have contacts in Florida.

(They) assert that Foster was paving the way for the extending of Moran's criminal enterprise here and that "the big boss" would arrive to make his headquarters only after preliminary details had worked out and "the business" was operating on a Chicago like basis.

A rattled local operative in the LA underworld was relieved this article had exposed the move, causing Moran to temporarily abort the operation gratefully informing a local reporter "If they'd ever put it over, we'd have had to fold up and get out of town cos we wouldn't have a Chinaman's chance of standing up to that level of competetion"

Moran planned to re-open the Sheridan Wave Club, scene of the St. Valenine's Day massacre, even sending out engraved invitations but the authorities turned him down.

Moran attempted to consolidate his power by tightening his alliances in St Paul-Minneapolis. Muscle power was needed in a war with the Weisman Gang of Kansas City and as the body count in the region started to rise it was clear Moran had stamped his authority on yet another conflict. He became embroiled in other conflicts in the region with many other rival factions.

Moran held busineess interests in clubs and businesses in Chicago such as th Central Cleaning Company, across Minnesota/St.Paul/the mid-West until his imprisonment and death. His operations extended northwards as the authorities put the squeeze on his North Side rackets and he took control of the gambling rackets in Wisconsin, remained a powerful underworld figure until that time. His ex-wife ran the Doll house, a famous hideout for the likes of Tommy Carroll, Dillinger and baby Faced Nelson.

Leo Mongoven and Bugs Moran would supervise slot machine rackets in Lake Country until 1936, when Moran's newer business interests took him elsewhere.

Wht remained of the Chicago North Side Gang (as recognised in the bootlegging war) largely disintegrated into different factions by the mid-30's. Leo Mongoven ran some minor book and slot machine action that the Outfit did not interfere with and he lived to a ripe old age passing away in 1980, a rare survivor from the North Side ranks. Some of the relatives of North Side members still hold business interests (legally) in the area today.

Sadly because alot of the Cops of the time were crooked and most of the media interest was in Capone alot of these great tales died with the North Side's activities.

The East St.Louis and Minneapolis organised crime elements kept their power base until the mid-80's.

Posted By: gamms

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 11/15/12 04:13 AM

you aint gonna give a guy a sportsbook, even if hes ur fucking son, if he dont know how to change the lines. the sopranos were bullshit. the bookies are the winners. they re going to always be ahead of the wiseguys. a big book can make more than a teamsters pension fund can.
Posted By: tommykarate

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/03/13 10:09 PM

Myth fate Pete wasn't shot cus casso thought he was a snitch.he was shot cus he was pleading guilty in the windows case and casso and amuso were a part of it
Posted By: olivant

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/16/13 09:58 PM

I guess this goes here:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/16/justice/witness-protection-program/index.html?hpt=hp_c1
Posted By: UnderTheClock

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/21/13 04:48 AM

Interesting info about Moran. Didn't know his tentacles stretched that far.
Posted By: Viceguy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/23/13 09:16 AM

Does it always work when a made man has an interest in a business? Supposedly he gets a piece of the profits and provides protection from anybody muscling in, that much I get.

I ask because of the union guy O'Connor who arranged the dismantling of a business supposedly constructed with non-union workers.

Unknown to O'Connor the Gambinos had a hidden interest and Gotti was caught on tape ordering Fat Ang to bust O'connor up for which the Don was later charged and ultimately acquitted.

O'Connor was initially offered a 5 G bribe, but refused it. Why would the owner offer anything since they were connected? Why didn't they just go to their guy and report?
Posted By: BaltimoreSteel69

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/27/13 08:33 PM


What's wrong with glorifying mobsters?
Posted By: Faithful1

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/13/13 09:04 AM

Originally Posted By: BaltimoreSteel69

What's wrong with glorifying mobsters?


Seriously?!? Uh, well, because the rob, steal, extort, bribe and murder. They have lives that revolve around committing evil deeds.
Posted By: bronx

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/13/13 01:54 PM

viceguy..the person who owned that restaurant was a made guy,
Posted By: SHOREHAVEN

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/17/13 11:33 PM

your a mademan so you would know
Posted By: Camarel

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/19/13 03:57 AM

Originally Posted By: SHOREHAVEN
your a mademan so you would know


Who are you talking to? confused
Posted By: SHOREHAVEN

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/19/13 10:42 PM

bronx
Posted By: bronx

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/20/13 02:21 AM

with what family..the koshernostra
Posted By: mulberry

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/24/13 07:22 PM

I totally disagree. Washing dishes might be better for normal people, but most of these mobsters are not normal people. They are extremely greedy, power hungry, and sociopathic. Do you think guys like John Gotti, Tony Spilotro, or Carmine Persico would ever trade their lives to wash dishes if they could do it all over again? One died in prison, another was beaten to death, and the other has spent most of his adult life in prison. I bet none of them ever even regretted their mob life for a second and wished they were a car salesman or janitor. Even Sammy Gravano, when he had a second chance, went straight back to a life of crime even though he had plenty of money and two successful businesses in Arizona.
Posted By: mulberry

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/24/13 07:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Faithful1
Originally Posted By: BaltimoreSteel69

What's wrong with glorifying mobsters?


Seriously?!? Uh, well, because the rob, steal, extort, bribe and murder. They have lives that revolve around committing evil deeds.


The same could be said about Bush and Obama, but millions still glorify them.
Posted By: Crazy_Casso

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/30/13 07:44 PM

I wonder where it all went wrong for the mob. They had it all, they could buy off local cops, judges, you name it. Hell, even some FBI agents. As long as the money was flowing, they were not able to be taken down. "Nobody in New York City can be made a judge without Costello's consent."

Of course, wouldn't it be a repeating cycle of getting caught, buying off the cops, starting over, etc. Where did the first gear break off?
Posted By: elmwoodparker

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/03/13 04:11 AM

Like everything else, Greed. Also, a couple of other things besides Greed. 1). The law enforcement became much better, like agent Pistone infiltrating the Disorganized Bonnano Family. 2). Rico Act in 1985. 3). Too many made guys in New York trying to eat off the same plate. Too much QUANTITY and not enough QUALITY.
Posted By: Chicago

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/17/13 11:37 AM

Can't really argue with those points. The Bonnano Family was not disorganized, they simply allowed themselves to be compromised. The Feds during that time were starting to catch on slowly but surely about the American Mafia.
Posted By: Tony_Pro

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/19/13 02:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Both Sedway and Greenbaum were associates of Lansky. Sedway operated out of NY, Greenbaum was with the Outfit. Tony Accardo specifically asked Greenbaum to manage the Riviera Hotel in Vegas. According to many stories, Greenbaum was murdered in '58 on orders from Accardo because he was skimming.

We'd have to infer that both were involved with Siegel's hit--especially after they showed up at the Flamingo about an hour after he was killed--but the triggerman or men have never been identified. The movie would have us believe that Mickey Cohen pulled the trigger, but I doubt it.


I've always heard that the triggermen were Dragna people. It's always fascinated me that this one of the rare hits carried out with a rifle (in this case a military surplus M1 Carbine).
Posted By: Faithful1

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/13/13 06:25 AM

Bill Bonanno said that a Jewish mobster accompanied the Dragna shooter on the Siegel hit. Don't know if what he wrote is accurate, but that was his claim. I think the shooter was Eddie Cannizzaro, a Dragna soldier.
Posted By: ht2

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/13/13 07:09 AM

I doubt even Joe Bonanno Sr knew the exact details. There's no corroboration for the identity of the shooter so I don't believe these claims. Might as well believe Kuklinski killed Hoffa or Big Paul.

I read that all the curtains in the mansion were normally drawn closed and that the ones behind him were opened and Siegel didn't notice. If true, this would suggest more than one person.
Posted By: BigEarner

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/12/13 06:33 PM

What about Frankie Carbo? He was mentioned as the shooter.
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/18/13 01:22 AM

Could be. Carbo was in on the Big Greenie hit with Siegel.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/14/13 03:29 AM

Speaking of Siegel, I just watched a Pawn Stars rerun from 2011. In it Corey spouted off with the bull legend about Siegel being the originator of the Flamingo and naming it after Virginia Hill.
Posted By: NOLAmobLIVESon

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 10/15/13 03:02 PM

what about the New Orleans family? Turnbull?


my thoughts

(This is a chart on the New Orleans LCN Family. The chart was made by a guy named Lennert on the Real Deal Forum. It was made in 2010.)

As it said, this chat was made in 2010, 3 almost 4 years ago and has only listed "KNOWN" members.
for New Orleans to be one of the oldest in organized crime (NOT TO MENTION ONE OF THE MOST CORRUPT CITIES IN THE NATION) not to have so much HEAT of the nation or police on them "thanks to family's from the north".
its seems foolish to out rule the possibility that the family is over & done with.
Anyone from New Orleans or the south coast can easily see the money to be made here. just for 1, the offshore oil field.
Now offshore oil works are not always in USA waters witch makes it a lot easier to clean money and hide other forms of organized crime income.
The south has only been coming up due to oil & gas, as a lot of the rest of the country are losing jobs everyday. This is also due to the port of fourchon being the #2 top import of oil & gas in the U.S.A.
Some of you say the New Orleans Family is no more.
I say, "if the people were not good at what they do, then it would have never happened in the first place".
The entire organization is based upon the silence of what they are and what they do. If the silence is upheld, it leads everyone to believe that it is no more.
So maybe rethink the thought of the New Orleans Family being over, or continue to think that they are gone and by that thought alone you may very well be giving them more power.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 11/24/13 12:40 AM

Originally Posted By: NOLAmobLIVESon
what about the New Orleans family? Turnbull?


my thoughts

(This is a chart on the New Orleans LCN Family. The chart was made by a guy named Lennert on the Real Deal Forum. It was made in 2010.)

As it said, this chat was made in 2010, 3 almost 4 years ago and has only listed "KNOWN" members.
for New Orleans to be one of the oldest in organized crime (NOT TO MENTION ONE OF THE MOST CORRUPT CITIES IN THE NATION) not to have so much HEAT of the nation or police on them "thanks to family's from the north".
its seems foolish to out rule the possibility that the family is over & done with.
Anyone from New Orleans or the south coast can easily see the money to be made here. just for 1, the offshore oil field.
Now offshore oil works are not always in USA waters witch makes it a lot easier to clean money and hide other forms of organized crime income.
The south has only been coming up due to oil & gas, as a lot of the rest of the country are losing jobs everyday. This is also due to the port of fourchon being the #2 top import of oil & gas in the U.S.A.
Some of you say the New Orleans Family is no more.
I say, "if the people were not good at what they do, then it would have never happened in the first place".
The entire organization is based upon the silence of what they are and what they do. If the silence is upheld, it leads everyone to believe that it is no more.
So maybe rethink the thought of the New Orleans Family being over, or continue to think that they are gone and by that thought alone you may very well be giving them more power.


Cough...bullshit....Cough...
Posted By: Cajunwhodat

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 11/24/13 03:44 AM

Marcello properties....legit
Pinnacle operations......legit
Fertitta family buying ameristar.....legit
By the way fertittas have deep Sicilian roots as well ass NOLA lake charles etc
Fact is if the south dont flash then i guess they fly under the radar nobody doin stupid shit here we laughing at the yoyos gettin caught at stupid shit up north plenty of legit stuff out there last guy to do time here was Vincent for coke and dat aint hapnin any more
Posted By: Cajunwhodat

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 11/24/13 03:47 AM

Oh and Joe Ancona who is out on halfway house deal but his mma studio still rockin
Posted By: Cajunwhodat

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 11/24/13 04:15 AM

Not throwing lawn darts at the north just saying that when some of the movie star dons got going up there seems everyone got hurt.A very smart italian man said to me when I was 21 don't drive,wear,show or f'?-;k your money and you'll always be ok.Its working out
Posted By: LaLouisiane

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 12/05/13 10:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Cajunwhodat
Not throwing lawn darts at the north just saying that when some of the movie star dons got going up there seems everyone got hurt.A very smart italian man said to me when I was 21 don't drive,wear,show or f'?-;k your money and you'll always be ok.Its working out


Huh?? Please tell me your not trying a reference to the defunct NOLA crime family?
Posted By: Lilo

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 12/17/13 12:48 PM

Jerry Capeci NYT
Quote:

Jerry Capeci was trying to get his mitts around an international tale written in blood, a case that put together a Mafia boss in Montreal and murders in Brooklyn and Acapulco, Mexico. Mr. Capeci hoped to get to the bottom of it. He has been chronicling the Mafia for nearly four decades, first for two New York tabloids and now for his own website, ganglandnews.com. He has also produced half a dozen gangster-themed books, including a new one about a big-time informer — “Mob Boss: The Life of Little Al D’Arco, the Man Who Brought Down the Mafia” — written with the estimable columnist Tom Robbins.

But his pursuit of the three-nation affair had hit some hurdles, and Mr. Capeci let frustration show during a recent lunch at an Italian restaurant in Corona, Queens.
“I don’t know, maybe it’s me,” he said, “but it seems that prosecutors and agents and cops, more and more, have the Rudy Giuliani attitude.”

Meaning what? It did not sound like praise.
“Meaning ‘I’m not going to tell you anything,’ ” he said. “The government seems to make you go through hoops to gather what normally is public information. It seems to be a trend that began, in my view, when Rudy was U.S. attorney in the Southern District.” That was in the 1980s, before Mr. Giuliani was elected mayor.

Pre-Rudy, Mr. Capeci said, “there was less of an us-versus-them attitude when you dealt with law enforcement.” What too many officials ignore, he said, is that they are, at best, temporary custodians of public information, not its proprietors.
We invited Mr. Capeci (pronounced kuh-PEA-see) to a meal out of curiosity. How does one go about tracking the five Mafia families of New York? The public’s fascination with the subject seems endless. At the very least, the mob never falls out of the news for long...
Posted By: TheArm

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 12/30/13 03:29 PM

One of the biggest myths about LCN
"It is a bunch of killers"
Not so....not even close
I have met and know scores of made guys and associates in my life, and I would guess less than 25% of them ever killed anyone.
It made up on mostly theives, not killers, and the myth that you have to kill someone to be made is an even bigger myth.
Posted By: Faithful1

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/02/14 10:23 PM

Originally Posted By: mulberry
Originally Posted By: Faithful1
Originally Posted By: BaltimoreSteel69

What's wrong with glorifying mobsters?


Seriously?!? Uh, well, because the rob, steal, extort, bribe and murder. They have lives that revolve around committing evil deeds.


The same could be said about Bush and Obama, but millions still glorify them.


I just noticed I didn't reply to this comment. I see why.
Posted By: Moe_Tilden

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 03/17/14 01:48 PM

Originally Posted By: FrankMazola
Question, not really a myth… is Salvatore Clemente (Lucchese rat associate) retarded? Or just have a speech impediment all a Sylvester Stallone?


Was this guy even in the Mafia?

Or did he just say tell the producers of Manhattan Mob Rampage that he was a gangster and they took one look at him and say "Ok. He looks like he's taken a few bullets in the brain. We'll run with this".
Posted By: night_timer

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/02/14 08:39 AM

Originally Posted By: TheArm
One of the biggest myths about LCN
"It is a bunch of killers"
Not so....not even close
I have met and know scores of made guys and associates in my life, and I would guess less than 25% of them ever killed anyone.
It made up on mostly theives, not killers, and the myth that you have to kill someone to be made is an even bigger myth.


.... this I agree with. I think it's more about making money than getting violent!

In any case, any violence is unlikely to be perpetrated against the general public.
Posted By: BloodlettersandBadmen

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/25/14 06:01 AM

Surely to be controversial, this brief video from Bloodletters & Badmen attempts to correct many of the historical inaccuracies. Hollywood, perhaps more than any other has misrepresented a lot of the people and events surrounding the Castellammarese War between the two Mafia factions of Joe "the Boss" Masseria and Salvatore Maranzano. I hope this video will help in correcting some of there mistakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CWsvzI--eU
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/30/14 12:53 PM

Originally Posted By: BloodlettersandBadmen
Surely to be controversial, this brief video from Bloodletters & Badmen attempts to correct many of the historical inaccuracies. Hollywood, perhaps more than any other has misrepresented a lot of the people and events surrounding the Castellammarese War between the two Mafia factions of Joe "the Boss" Masseria and Salvatore Maranzano. I hope this video will help in correcting some of there mistakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CWsvzI--eU


B&B, did you make this video/documentary? If so, you are actually contributing to the confusion and the inaccuracies.
The picture depicting Salvatore Maranzano for example, is not of him but of a pimp based in London, England by the name of Salvatore Messina. The Castellamamarese war started in 1930 and ended in 1931 (and not in 1928 as said in the video/documentary). Another extremely important thing to point out is that only Cosa Nostra bosses were members of the Commission. No outsiders had seats or votes on the Commission. Al Capone, evan though he had Neopolitan roots, and the group he led, was recognized as Cosa Nostra right after the murder of Masseria. When the Commission was formed, right after the Maranzano murder, Capone was given a seat on the Commission.

Other than these points I made, the video/documentary is produced flawlessly. Welcome to the forum!
Posted By: BloodlettersandBadmen

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/01/14 07:12 AM

Dear Friend,

This is the problem with "underworld" history. Its very nature is secretive. These guys do not keep diaries or do interviews with 60 minutes.

As to your comments about the Commission, this is simply inaccurate by most accounts from historical researchers. Historian Carl Sifakis in his volume "The Mafia Encyclopedia" notes,

"Confusion is a result of the fact that there are really two commissions...[Source here is Joseph Bonanno] he speaks only of the commission as a unit representing the five New York families, with a representative from Chicago and at various times from a few additional cities such as Buffalo, Detroit and Philadelphia." p. 114

The larger group also referred to as the Commission or Syndicate was that formed by the non-Sicilian Charles Luciano and his Jewish friends Meyer Lansky and Ben Siegel. This group was "national". And had representatives from every major city in the US. It included such notable mobsters like Dutch Schultz, Abner "Longy" Zwillman, Moe Dalitz, and others.

It was this group which consolidated power and was dreamed of by Johnny Torrio and Charlie Luciano.

It was this group which had Dutch Schultz killed for disobeying a decision of the Board with respect to Thomas E. Dewey. And by the way, Schultz was, at the time, the most powerful mobster in the city.

During the 1950's a power shift took place. Jewish gangs were on the decline. The Irish were already gone. So Italians began dominating both the five families and the national commission i.e. the Syndicate.

It is interesting to note that I said "Italians" and not Sicilians. Sicilians were Mafioso. Those from the mainland were not. In fact, a bitter rivalry existed between the two. The latter may or may not have been "Camorra."

By the time the 1970's rolled around, most of the five families were no longer Mafia in the traditional sense (the way Joseph Bonanno would have defined it.)

Further, the term Cosa Nostra (our thing) was first used by Salvatore Maranzano to represent the five families which he established. It was not used by any other city.

As to the Castellammarese War, I have books from various researchers who give dates as early as 1928 (before the shooting started). They maintain that the way started in late 1928!

I guess I could go on and on.

G. Marshall Johnson
Posted By: BloodlettersandBadmen

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/01/14 07:13 AM

Underboss, by the way, with all that said I do want to thank you for your comments. I wish this was an easier field of research. Your observations are well received.
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/01/14 11:19 AM

I´m not talking about the Jewish syndicate, when I refer to the Commission. I´m talking about the Commission, formed by the five leaders of the New York Mafia, in late 1931. Whatever the Jewish gangsters may have had as a supreme ruling body of their organisation (and I´m doubtful they had any actually) shouldn´t be confused with the Mafia Commission. You quote Carl Sifakis in your post above. Sifakis may be a historian, but he is definitely not a researcher. His "The Mafia Encyclopedia" is full of factual errors and shouldn´t be regarded as a legit source. Never did the Jewish gangsters have any seats or votes on the Mafia Commission. No matter what Sifakis says.

There are three primary main sources on the early NY Mafia (late 1920s to 1950s) you should keep in higher regard. They are Joseph Valachi, Joseph Bonanno and Nicola Gentile. David Critchley´s book "The Origin of Organized Crime in America", for example, uses these three main sources heavily on subjects within that time frame (late 1920s to 1950s). Joseph Bonanno, who was actually a participant in the Castellammarese war and with an overview of the war second to none, tells in his "A Man of Honor" (from about page 93) about the origin and the leading up to the war. The first casualties were Milazzo and Perrino in Detroit, two Castellammaresi whose deaths needed to be avenged. They were both killed in 1930. (It´s not certain if Gaetano Reina´s murder can be considered part of the war, but in any case, the murder happened in 1930.) If you can find any relaible sources of killings in 1928 and 1929 related to the war, please post them here.

Salvatore Maranzano did not establish the five Families. As the boss of bosses, he had the authority to replace bosses. The five Families were established way before the Castellammarese war. In the late 1920s, the New York Families were led by Nicola Schiro (Bonanno Family), Joe Masseria (Genovese Family), Joseph Profaci/Salvatore DiBella (Colombo Family), Al Mineo (Gambino Family) and Gaetano Reina (Lucchese Family). How far back these five Families goes, nobody knows. They were not formed or created or born in 1931.
Posted By: ht2

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/02/14 02:43 AM

Originally Posted By: BloodlettersandBadmen

"Confusion is a result of the fact that there are really two commissions...[Source here is Joseph Bonanno] he speaks only of the commission as a unit representing the five New York families, with a representative from Chicago and at various times from a few additional cities such as Buffalo, Detroit and Philadelphia." p. 114

The larger group also referred to as the Commission or Syndicate was that formed by the non-Sicilian Charles Luciano and his Jewish friends Meyer Lansky and Ben Siegel. This group was "national". And had representatives from every major city in the US. It included such notable mobsters like Dutch Schultz, Abner "Longy" Zwillman, Moe Dalitz, and others.

It was this group which consolidated power and was dreamed of by Johnny Torrio and Charlie Luciano.

It was this group which had Dutch Schultz killed for disobeying a decision of the Board with respect to Thomas E. Dewey. And by the way, Schultz was, at the time, the most powerful mobster in the city.

During the 1950's a power shift took place. Jewish gangs were on the decline. The Irish were already gone. So Italians began dominating both the five families and the national commission i.e. the Syndicate.


For the most part I agree with this. I'm not so sure about details.

I believe Luciano and his associates, Jewish or otherwise, formed their own national syndicate (combination). I believe it overlapped with Cosa Nostra and largely disintegrated by the 1950's. Murder Inc was part of it's muscle. Whether or not outsiders were allowed to vote on Cosa Nostra commission is a strawman. Perhaps you made a typo but Luciano was Sicilian.
Posted By: BloodlettersandBadmen

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/02/14 07:28 AM

I believe you are misunderstanding me.

First, you kind of made my point. You state that Carl Sifakis’ book is full of factual errors. True! But so is every other one. Each and every so-called eye witness, from Joe Bonanno to Valachi had an agenda - to put themselves, their actions and their organization in the best possible light.

Saying a book is full of factual errors has to gone beyond the statement. What is required is some form of documentation which asserts unequivocally what did happen. Due to the fact that the underworld wants to remain secretive makes this a difficult feat.

Allow me to use a problem in logic that is often use to prove a point, but in the final analysis does not achieve its goal.
One man insists the grass is purple and another that it is pink. The first man brings in mounds of “scientific evidence” which proves the grass is NOT pink. Does this, therefore, prove the grass is purple; of course not.

Sifakis may have gotten things wrong, I agree. However, I have found contradictory research in the writing of Jay Robert Nash, Selwyn Raab and George Anastasia just to name a few. Who is right and who is wrong is up for debate.

Second, did the five families exist before the end (or the beginning for that matter) of the Castellammarese war? Of course they did. But Maranzano set the boundaries and government up for the families and his model still exist today. In fact, he is the one who first used the phrase Cosa Nostra (our thing).

A side note, I found it interesting that Joe Bonanno in “A Man of Honor” right from the start stated unequivocally that “Mafia” wasn’t a thing, but a process. That is a hell of a statement. If true, then it may overturn all modern-day concepts of Cosa Nostra.

Jay Robert Nash explains just after the death of Masseria, Maranzano called a meeting renting a large hall in on Washington Avenue in the Bronx in which “new families were set up.” I may disagree with Mr. Nash’s choice of words, but I believe he was speaking of the construct of the families and not implying the families did not exist at one moment and then came into existence after Maranzano’s decree.

There were other criminal enterprises prior to the War and yet, these where the five families as set by Maranzano who would have controlling interest in New York within the ranks of the Mafia.
The five families and their heads as constructed by Maranzano were Scalise, Gagliano, Profaci, Bonanno and Luciano [Joseph Bonanno, “A Man of Honor” (Simon & Schuster, 1983), p. 141], Scalise later being replaced after the death of Maranzano.
Third and this were things get a little dicey, Torrio, Luciano and Lansky wanted a structure to go beyond just New York. They didn’t only want peace in the Mafia, but cooperation with all cities whoever was in control; be it Italians, Jews and Irish.

Robert Lacey, in his biography of Meyer Lansky wrote, “The idea of a National Crime Syndicate is often confused with the Mafia. Yet they are not the same thing” [Robert Lacey, Little Man: Meyer Lansky and the Gangster Life, (Little Brown & Co., 1991), pp. 200-207.]

If you will, Maranzano setup the New York Commission of the Mafia Families. However, within a generation at least two of the families were now headed up by non-Sicilians namely Albert Anastasia and Vito Genovese. How could this have happened?
Was it due to the National Crime Syndicate (a.k.a. the National Commission)?

Again, quoting Jay Robert Nash, “The Mafia or Cosa Nostra, as it is called in the East by members of the New York Mafia families, did not at first exercise control of this organization. It remained a fraternal criminal brotherhood separate and apart from the syndicate (this is the National Commission headed up by Luciano), albeit several syndicate members were also Mafia…In the early 1930’s the Jewish and Irish gang-leaders still possessed considerable power throughout the U.S., thus preventing the establishment of a syndicate as being an all Italian or Mafia (Sicilian) controlled organization.” [Ibid, p. 38]

I submit, with the death of Dutch Schultz that began to change. Today, it is dominated by men of Italian descent and less Sicilian. This goes both for the Five Families and the National Commission.

At any rate, good comments. I can see you are well read. But now, I must get to work! What a bummer…
Posted By: HairyKnuckles

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/02/14 11:46 AM

Good post and good solid points.

One big misconception is that Maranazano was the one who set the structure of the Families. The structure of the Mafia looked the same back in the 1920s (before he came to power) as it does now. Back then there was a boss, an underboss, a consigliere, caporegimes and soldiers. This comes through in Gentile´s translated memoirs. If you are interested, maybe I can hook you up with a copy. But it´s not an easy read.

In a way, the Mafia is a process, constantly changing and evolving. The early austere Sicilian borgatas, I believe, provided primarily security and safety by unifications of blood related clans and turned (in America, and perhaps in Sicily too) into large "Families" and a "multimilion dollar industry" where money started to make the rules. Bonanno lived through it all, from being a member of the powerful Bonanno/Bonventre/Magaddino clan of Castellammare del Golfo to being a powerful boss of a Mafia Family in New York. He explains, in his book, the loss of tradition, honor and the way of life he knew during this process. And from being a strictly Sicilian "thing", the Mafia started to recruit mainland Italians, who weren´t exposed to this Sicilian tradition and way of life from birth, and therefore couldn´t fully understand it. These things is what I believe Bonanno meant by "The Mafia is a process".

Anyway, my first response was regarding the video/documentary posted above. And I still think that the video contributes to the confusion and inaccuracies you undoubtfully wish to debunk. I am of the same nature. The history of the Mafia, as we think we know it, is actually riddled with misconceptions and faulty conclusions. What we need to do is go back to the original sources, with an open mind, and try to interpert the info in a correct way. There are way too many authors who are basically just doing there books for a quick buck, riding on a wave of sensationalism and popularism in hopes that their books will sell. And I kinda understand them, who would want to buy a book that is not mainstream, goes against what the fake history has taught them and does not include familiar names? Way too much info in books (not to mention documentaries) on the subject of the Mafia is close to falsified or flatout rubbish. And the internet today, where everybody with the slightest interest can set up blogs and put up all kinds of misinformation certainly contributes to the problem. I´m sure you agree.

I hope you enjoyed a good day of work!
Posted By: BloodlettersandBadmen

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/03/14 08:55 AM

"He explains, in his book, the loss of tradition, honor and the way of life he knew during this process. And from being a strictly Sicilian "thing", the Mafia started to recruit mainland Italians, who weren´t exposed to this Sicilian tradition and way of life from birth, and therefore couldn´t fully understand it. These things is what I believe Bonanno meant by "The Mafia is a process".

I agree with your assessment in the above paragraph. Bonanno seemed to lament this change throughout his book.

As to Marazano's construct, I didn't mean to imply within the Borgata, i.e. the rank and structure, but without. This is why there has never been a sixth or seventh family added to the five within New York.

Lastly, all this misinformation and misconceptions floating around out there may be by design.

Imagine you and I were Boss and Underboss (I'll let you be boss:)and we came up with a plan to "hit" a rival gangster, say Dutch Schultz.

Would it not be beneficial for you and I, knowing that the hit would soon be made public and knowing that folks would be able to connect the hit in some way back to us, to spread as much misinformation mixing it in with some truth?

This would greatly benefit us if we were ever charged with the crime and went to trial. Contradictory testimony by witnesses on the how, why and who would go to the heart if a defense strategy. They call it reasonable doubt.

I heard Schultz was hit because the new Syndicate thought he was too much a renegade.

I heard he insulted Charlie's girlfriend.

I heard it was Bo Weinberg's brother wanting to get revenge, etc.

Misinformation can, at some points, be a more powerful defense then straight up denial.

Years down the road, the only ones who would really know the truth would be those directly involved.

Ergo, do we really ever know the real history and facts? Does law enforcement?

Personally, I believe the Chicago Outfit, Marcellos, Trafficante, and Roselli were in someway involved with the assassination of JFK, and may have had direct involvement.

Jim Garrison probably did more at helping spread the disinformation more than anyone. But all we are left with is circumstantial evidence and numerous conspiracy theories floating around.
Posted By: Revis_Island

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/08/14 03:48 PM

Here's a fact: Ginny Sac just had a 95 pound mole taken off her ass.
Posted By: BloodlettersandBadmen

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/09/14 10:31 AM

Now that's funny!
Posted By: Revis_Island

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/09/14 11:26 AM

Originally Posted By: BloodlettersandBadmen
Dear Friend,

This is the problem with "underworld" history. Its very nature is secretive. These guys do not keep diaries or do interviews with 60 minutes.

As to your comments about the Commission, this is simply inaccurate by most accounts from historical researchers. Historian Carl Sifakis in his volume "The Mafia Encyclopedia" notes,

"Confusion is a result of the fact that there are really two commissions...[Source here is Joseph Bonanno] he speaks only of the commission as a unit representing the five New York families, with a representative from Chicago and at various times from a few additional cities such as Buffalo, Detroit and Philadelphia." p. 114

The larger group also referred to as the Commission or Syndicate was that formed by the non-Sicilian Charles Luciano and his Jewish friends Meyer Lansky and Ben Siegel. This group was "national". And had representatives from every major city in the US. It included such notable mobsters like Dutch Schultz, Abner "Longy" Zwillman, Moe Dalitz, and others.

It was this group which consolidated power and was dreamed of by Johnny Torrio and Charlie Luciano.

It was this group which had Dutch Schultz killed for disobeying a decision of the Board with respect to Thomas E. Dewey. And by the way, Schultz was, at the time, the most powerful mobster in the city.

During the 1950's a power shift took place. Jewish gangs were on the decline. The Irish were already gone. So Italians began dominating both the five families and the national commission i.e. the Syndicate.

It is interesting to note that I said "Italians" and not Sicilians. Sicilians were Mafioso. Those from the mainland were not. In fact, a bitter rivalry existed between the two. The latter may or may not have been "Camorra."

By the time the 1970's rolled around, most of the five families were no longer Mafia in the traditional sense (the way Joseph Bonanno would have defined it.)

Further, the term Cosa Nostra (our thing) was first used by Salvatore Maranzano to represent the five families which he established. It was not used by any other city.

As to the Castellammarese War, I have books from various researchers who give dates as early as 1928 (before the shooting started). They maintain that the way started in late 1928!

I guess I could go on and on.

G. Marshall Johnson



I always have this convo with people. Sicilians are Italians. So many people think that Sicilians are so much different but they are italian. Sicily is part of Italy. Just not part of the mainland. Now Sicilians and northern Italians were very different but Sicilians and calabrese and maybe some other southern italian regions were very much the same in my analysis. Whether you're sicilian, neapolitan, calabrese or whatever you're italian to me. It'd be like saying I'm a Floridian not an American. But I would agree that there were many differences between southern Italians and northern Italians. Always irked me when I heard someone say "I'm sicilian not italian". And most of my grandparents came from Sicily too.
Posted By: EVL

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/20/14 01:59 PM

Wanted to address first post.... I think your making "the life" still too attractive!LOL! I don't even think you'll be given much of a living. I honestly think kids believe you become rich when you get a button! You won't be given any money because it would have to come from someone else's pocket. You can start a book, you might inherit somebody's whatever if they're recently dead. Chances are you will already be running some rackets, maybe extorting drug dealers and shady businesses, such as strip clubs, which are very popular among mobsters for obvious reasons. Nowadays it might be different. Notice how you keep seeing the same names over and over again in news stories. The mob is really only making sons and brothers and nephews and in-laws... more are related by blood and if you didn't grow up in the neighborhood, forget it. Lot more associates, fewer made guys is what I hear.
Posted By: ht2

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/23/14 05:43 PM

Originally Posted By: BloodlettersandBadmen

First, you kind of made my point. You state that Carl Sifakis’ book is full of factual errors. True! But so is every other one. Each and every so-called eye witness, from Joe Bonanno to Valachi had an agenda - to put themselves, their actions and their organization in the best possible light.

Saying a book is full of factual errors has to gone beyond the statement. What is required is some form of documentation which asserts unequivocally what did happen. Due to the fact that the underworld wants to remain secretive makes this a difficult feat.
...
Sifakis may have gotten things wrong, I agree. However, I have found contradictory research in the writing of Jay Robert Nash, Selwyn Raab and George Anastasia just to name a few. Who is right and who is wrong is up for debate.



Excellent points.

Many of the popular authors (including primary sources) have errors and contradictions, but it doesn't mean we dismiss everything they wrote. Joe Valachi, Joe Bonanno Sr., Gentile and Abe Reles are primary sources people use for early research, but what do we do when they contradict each other? For example, Joe Valachi claims he was sponsored by Joe Bonanno but Bonanno himself denied this. Which is fact?

Joe Valachi stated that mafia soldiers did not participate in Murder Inc. killings and that they were separate run organizations. This may have been generally true what was a powerful underboss like Anastasia doing with them? People who deny a national combination deny these facts by dismissing or pretending they didn't happen.

Primary sources are considered more reliable than secondary, but not always. Single sources of information like Valachi or Gentile should always be suspect unless they can be corroborated with other sources of information. It's always a problem where they might disagree, but on points they agree I guess we can place some degree of confidence.
Posted By: Stripes

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/28/14 07:32 PM

Anyone here of Danny Miano
Posted By: Stripes

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/28/14 07:32 PM

Anyone here of Danny Miano
Posted By: Revis_Island

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/08/14 12:07 AM

I always wondered if frank Sinatra was really that involved with the mafia.
Posted By: Footreads

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/08/14 12:13 AM

No but Sinatra had friends and acquaintances in the mafia.
Posted By: sbhc

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/03/14 09:43 PM

There's stories about Sam Giancana getting Sinatra lucrative movie parts when his career was flagging.

He was questioned by authorities in 1951 over a suspicion that he had transported money for the mob to Havana. He was hired to provide the entertainment at a summit of mobsters including the exiled Lucky Luciano.

I think Frank definitely liked to keep company with wiseguys and they liked him, he was a source of pride for Italian Americans.
Posted By: DoctorTwink

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/09/14 05:47 PM

The biggest myth is that you must be completely Italian, have an Italian last name, or be Italian on your father's side only to join or even be made.

They allow people who are 1/2, 1/4, 1/8th or even less Italian in their heritage join as long as they are white and look Italian or Mediterranean.

This myth is perpetuated by movies and TV shows which are full of wrong misinformation masquerading as fact.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/19/14 06:19 PM

I was watching History Channel 2 and learned that Al Capone had a brother who was a Prohibition agent. Vincenzo was much older and supposedly murdered someone right in front of Al when Al was just a kid. After Al became infamous, Vincenzo changed his last name.
Posted By: Massimo

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/20/14 05:46 PM

It relates to conspiracy to commit crimes, an element of extortion is always part of the allegation. The law targets Italians (and gangs) however it would be appropriate to apply to many other "Wall Street" and gov fraud cases as they qualify but I don't know that it is ever applied to them. In my opinion and those of many I know, it's an outdated law that can be pinned on almost anyone for almost anything and it carries harsh mandatory minimums where the convicted will often serve a life sentence even there is NO physical violence or drugs involved!
RICO NEEDS REFORM
Posted By: Turnbull

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 07/20/14 05:49 PM

Originally Posted By: olivant
I was watching History Channel 2 and learned that Al Capone had a brother who was a Prohibition agent. Vincenzo was much older and supposedly murdered someone right in front of Al when Al was just a kid. After Al became infamous, Vincenzo changed his last name.

He changed his name to Richard Hart, and also served as a law enforcer in Indian territories, later a justice of the peace.
Posted By: Malandrino

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/08/14 05:47 AM

Originally Posted By: DoctorTwink
The biggest myth is that you must be completely Italian, have an Italian last name, or be Italian on your father's side only to join or even be made.

They allow people who are 1/2, 1/4, 1/8th or even less Italian in their heritage join as long as they are white and look Italian or Mediterranean.

This myth is perpetuated by movies and TV shows which are full of wrong misinformation masquerading as fact.


How can you know for sure? Not that I'm disagreeing but I think you should at least have an Italian last name to get made, at least in NY. I haven't heard of any made guys who don't have Italian names... I think I remember one or two in smaller families, but not in NY.
Posted By: FrankMazola

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/09/14 04:04 PM

Originally Posted By: DoctorTwink
The biggest myth is that you must be completely Italian, have an Italian last name, or be Italian on your father's side only to join or even be made.

They allow people who are 1/2, 1/4, 1/8th or even less Italian in their heritage join as long as they are white and look Italian or Mediterranean.

This myth is perpetuated by movies and TV shows which are full of wrong misinformation masquerading as fact.


False.

While there are examples of guys getting made who were half Italian, almost always they had last names that were Italian. And in recent years that relaxing of the rules to allow non-Italians in has been curbed. You gotta be full blood or damn near close to it.
Posted By: DoctorTwink

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/16/14 01:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Malandrino
Originally Posted By: DoctorTwink
The biggest myth is that you must be completely Italian, have an Italian last name, or be Italian on your father's side only to join or even be made.

They allow people who are 1/2, 1/4, 1/8th or even less Italian in their heritage join as long as they are white and look Italian or Mediterranean.

This myth is perpetuated by movies and TV shows which are full of wrong misinformation masquerading as fact.


How can you know for sure? Not that I'm disagreeing but I think you should at least have an Italian last name to get made, at least in NY. I haven't heard of any made guys who don't have Italian names... I think I remember one or two in smaller families, but not in NY.


NYC and the so called "families" there are not the standard for who gets to join or get "made". For those in the know it's a total myth that you must be completely Italian, be 50% with a heritage on your father's side, or even have a last name. You do have to have some Italian heritage but it does not even have to be 50% or on only your father's side.
Posted By: PetroPirelli

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/21/14 11:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Malandrino
Originally Posted By: DoctorTwink
The biggest myth is that you must be completely Italian, have an Italian last name, or be Italian on your father's side only to join or even be made.

They allow people who are 1/2, 1/4, 1/8th or even less Italian in their heritage join as long as they are white and look Italian or Mediterranean.

This myth is perpetuated by movies and TV shows which are full of wrong misinformation masquerading as fact.


How can you know for sure? Not that I'm disagreeing but I think you should at least have an Italian last name to get made, at least in NY. I haven't heard of any made guys who don't have Italian names... I think I remember one or two in smaller families, but not in NY.


What about Joe 'The German' Watts. I thought he was a made guy in the Gambinos? If not, he wielded just as much power as one who was made.
Posted By: oldschool3

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/22/14 06:42 AM

Watts was never made, but as Petro says above, he did function as one. There are many instances where non-made guys (I hesistate to just use the term associate) wield as much, if not more, power than made guys. A great example is when John Gotti was named acting capo of the Bergin crew before he was ever even made a soldier.It all comes down to your earning power and who you're connected to.
Posted By: Beanshooter

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/22/14 03:13 PM

Jimmy The Gent Burke was a well respected non made guy too.
Posted By: JackSpratt

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/22/14 07:20 PM

Called himself "2 gun Hart". He was the constable in his little town, and as such had keys to the stores. When they started to come up missing merchandise ( including his own father in law, "2 gun" was dismissed. He also conned the local American Legion post into believing he was a big hero in the war, when of course, he never went, and was found out, and thrown out of the post. Guy was a total loser, and in the end, broke, his kids with nothing to eat, accepted charity from Al.
Posted By: ShotgunTheRifle

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/22/14 07:26 PM

Originally Posted By: FrankMazola
Originally Posted By: DoctorTwink
The biggest myth is that you must be completely Italian, have an Italian last name, or be Italian on your father's side only to join or even be made.

They allow people who are 1/2, 1/4, 1/8th or even less Italian in their heritage join as long as they are white and look Italian or Mediterranean.

This myth is perpetuated by movies and TV shows which are full of wrong misinformation masquerading as fact.


False.

While there are examples of guys getting made who were half Italian, almost always they had last names that were Italian. And in recent years that relaxing of the rules to allow non-Italians in has been curbed. You gotta be full blood or damn near close to it.



John Veasey was I believe a 1/4 Italian. The surname Veasey is also French.

What is the make up of Frank Martines?
Posted By: PetroPirelli

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/26/14 08:56 AM

Originally Posted By: ShotgunTheRifle
John Veasey was I believe a 1/4 Italian. The surname Veasey is also French.

What is the make up of Frank Martines?


Are you John Veasey? You're the only guy here that mentions his name wink.
Posted By: bigboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/26/14 10:02 AM

I believe John Veasey was half Italian. As I recall, his mother was Sicilian and his father not.
Posted By: Vitto

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/26/14 12:13 PM

Andrew campos from Bronx not Italian but Latino (fact) they denied him membership until family was in Shambles they let him slip through only because of tori locascio money makes things happen.. They try to say last name is Greek fathers side.. That's bull he's Latino.. Now he try's to spell it with an e at end so it ends in a vowel because most italian last name end in a vowel.. So point, they can do and say what they want..there rules are foolish..Andrew campos should not even be recognized..
Posted By: Alfanosgirl

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/09/14 09:32 PM

The way a guy is clipped tells much about his character. So we know there are many ways to die. The rarest way to die is of natural causes. You can be left on the street to be made an example of, shot and thrown into the river, left in the trunk of your car with dollar bills shoved inside you to show you are greedy, a canary shoved in your mouth to give the guys the impression that you were informing. Are these just myths? If they aren't then what are some of the ways other guys were whacked and what were the meanings behind them?
Posted By: Beanshooter

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/09/14 09:47 PM

No they are not myths. Check out Tony Bananas Caponigro as an example of what you wrote.
Posted By: Alfanosgirl

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/09/14 10:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Beanshooter
No they are not myths. Check out Tony Bananas Caponigro as an example of what you wrote.


Yea I know exactly who you are talking about. I've been into learning about cosa nostra since I've been a kid but always have questions. There's a lot I know about these gangsters from what I read or heard from my family but since I'm a chick I feel I should hold back and keep quiet (most of the time) cuz I'm new to this site and want to be respectful to the people posting who have been on here for awhile. If that makes any sense.
What about poison? I know it's been used on civilians but were any guys rubbed out this way?
Posted By: Alfanosgirl

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/09/14 10:17 PM

I know that the Italians will only only use one undertaker. Then the sons take over and the next generation uses the sons as undertakers. Is this the same for mob guys? What is the significance of an undertaker?
Posted By: Alfanosgirl

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/09/14 10:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: olivant
I was watching History Channel 2 and learned that Al Capone had a brother who was a Prohibition agent. Vincenzo was much older and supposedly murdered someone right in front of Al when Al was just a kid. After Al became infamous, Vincenzo changed his last name.

He changed his name to Richard Hart, and also served as a law enforcer in Indian territories, later a justice of the peace.



I was watching a doc on prohibition who had Deidra Capone the niece of Al Capone. Now I don't know if she's credible or not but according to her this is what she said about her uncle Al and his brother. She said that during a riot/fight that they were both involved in on the street, Al told his brother Vincenzo you ended up killing that fella. He felt so bad about it he changed his ways becoming R. Hart moving away. Well one day they got together and were reminiscing about the old days and that story came up. Well Al told his brother you know you never killed that guy and Vincenzo couldn't believe it and punched Al. Now like I said I have no idea if this Deidra is making up a good story or what but that's what she said on that documentary that aired recently.
Posted By: Faithful1

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/17/14 04:28 PM

There's no doubt that she's a Capone. She says that her grandfather Ralph and the younger brothers Matt and John as well as sister Mafalda told her many stories. Seems normal and credible to me.
Posted By: Binnie_Coll

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/17/14 10:23 PM

biggest myth of all "we only kill our own"
Posted By: Alfanosgirl

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/17/14 11:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
biggest myth of all "we only kill our own"


That sounds like a line out of an old classic movie. I think that the real myth is that A MOBSTER ACTUALLY SAID "We only kill our own."

These wiseguys need to make money. If you get in their way, you're gonna pay one way or another, sometimes with your life.
That has always been understood by people who live in the neighborhoods these guys are in.
Posted By: Footreads

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/18/14 01:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Alfanosgirl
I know that the Italians will only only use one undertaker. Then the sons take over and the next generation uses the sons as undertakers. Is this the same for mob guys? What is the significance of an undertaker?


There was an undertaker in east Harlem that we all used. Cordovano they moved from Harlem to a place called Carmel, NY.

We still use them the name as changed to something like Belsamo-Cordovano. Someone kicks off they come bring the stiff to the funeral home of your choice. Put the dead guy in the OB in a paper. Do they still print papers any more?

They treat you like old friends who you can't really remember smile

They make sure everyone has a good time when a loved one kicks off.

In my case my wife will use some guy her family knows. Me fuck that just want to be buried at my soccer field so I don't miss any games just because I am dead. It is illegal to do what I want to do. I already made arrangements for it to happen my way.

I don't want any one at my service when I go.my family knows that my wife is upset about it.

We have a plot here in Brooklyn. She actually thought we will be buried together. I told her if we die at the same time then ok. If not just think of it as separate vacations.
Posted By: pizzaboy

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/18/14 01:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Footreads
There was an undertaker in east Harlem that we all used. Cordovano they moved from Harlem to a place called Carmel, NY.

They're still there. They're partners with Ralphie Balsamo now in the Carmel location (and being that Ralphie's a made guy, I guess it's appropriate of this website lol).

Anyway, I did a lot of work out of Harlem when I first started in the funeral business. I know the Cordovanos all my life. Hell, I was doing pallbearer carries for New York Mortuary on First Avenue when I was like 15 years old. That's 1974-1975.

Louie on 116th. Casario on 106th. There were a dozen little storefront funeral homes in East Harlem back then. Today Ortiz owns most of them.
Posted By: salvi62

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/18/14 01:50 AM

PB, I know you were in the funeral biz got a question.

Check your PM's

Sal
Posted By: Alfanosgirl

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/19/14 11:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Footreads
Originally Posted By: Alfanosgirl
I know that the Italians will only only use one undertaker. Then the sons take over and the next generation uses the sons as undertakers. Is this the same for mob guys? What is the significance of an undertaker?


There was an undertaker in east Harlem that we all used. Cordovano they moved from Harlem to a place called Carmel, NY.

We still use them the name as changed to something like Belsamo-Cordovano. Someone kicks off they come bring the stiff to the funeral home of your choice. Put the dead guy in the OB in a paper. Do they still print papers any more?

They treat you like old friends who you can't really remember smile

They make sure everyone has a good time when a loved one kicks off.

In my case my wife will use some guy her family knows. Me fuck that just want to be buried at my soccer field so I don't miss any games just because I am dead. It is illegal to do what I want to do. I already made arrangements for it to happen my way.

I don't want any one at my service when I go.my family knows that my wife is upset about it.

We have a plot here in Brooklyn. She actually thought we will be buried together. I told her if we die at the same time then ok. If not just think of it as separate vacations.


LMAO

You've already made arrangements for your illegal burial but you know you're gonna end up in that plot in Brooklyn if you go first smile
My husband and I have agreed that if I'm suffering in pain he's gonna drive me to the desert put two behind the ear and let nature finish the rest wink just kidding.

Good stuff Footreads.
Posted By: Red_63

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/19/14 11:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Alfanosgirl
Originally Posted By: Footreads
Originally Posted By: Alfanosgirl
I know that the Italians will only only use one undertaker. Then the sons take over and the next generation uses the sons as undertakers. Is this the same for mob guys? What is the significance of an undertaker?


There was an undertaker in east Harlem that we all used. Cordovano they moved from Harlem to a place called Carmel, NY.

We still use them the name as changed to something like Belsamo-Cordovano. Someone kicks off they come bring the stiff to the funeral home of your choice. Put the dead guy in the OB in a paper. Do they still print papers any more?

They treat you like old friends who you can't really remember smile

They make sure everyone has a good time when a loved one kicks off.

In my case my wife will use some guy her family knows. Me fuck that just want to be buried at my soccer field so I don't miss any games just because I am dead. It is illegal to do what I want to do. I already made arrangements for it to happen my way.

I don't want any one at my service when I go.my family knows that my wife is upset about it.

We have a plot here in Brooklyn. She actually thought we will be buried together. I told her if we die at the same time then ok. If not just think of it as separate vacations.


LMAO

You've already made arrangements for your illegal burial but you know you're gonna end up in that plot in Brooklyn if you go first smile
My husband and I have agreed that if I'm suffering in pain he's gonna drive me to the desert put two behind the ear and let nature finish the rest wink just kidding.

Good stuff Footreads.


Yeah were going to sell off our organs I can live with one Kidney
Posted By: granchild411

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/24/14 01:24 AM

What if i told you big paul costelano was wearing ceramic bullet proof vest that night in 1985 new york . Went into hiding oversees
Posted By: Dooley36

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/24/14 12:43 PM

Originally Posted By: granchild411
What if i told you big paul costelano was wearing ceramic bullet proof vest that night in 1985 new york . Went into hiding oversees


That would be awesome....but he was shot in the head...
Posted By: oldschool3

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/24/14 01:35 PM

Yes, but few people know that he had a steel plate in his head and the bullet bounced off...both he and Elvis are working in a Burger King in Canada right now.
Posted By: Binnie_Coll

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 09/24/14 03:54 PM

old school13, no, no, no, you got it all wrong, elvis is running a little donut shop in texas, {as of last sighting} hope this clears everything up. lol
Posted By: Alfanosgirl

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 11/01/14 11:09 PM

Mob myth or fact: Larry Gallo was buried holding a Jimmy Roselli album in his hands
Posted By: Mark

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 11/01/14 11:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Alfanosgirl
Mob myth or fact: Larry Gallo was buried holding a Jimmy Roselli album in his hands

Was it the White album or the second release? If you play the original backwards you can hear J Edgar Hoover saying; "There is no Mafia!" over and over.
Posted By: Alfanosgirl

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 11/01/14 11:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark
Originally Posted By: Alfanosgirl
Mob myth or fact: Larry Gallo was buried holding a Jimmy Roselli album in his hands

Was it the White album or the second release? If you play the original backwards you can hear J Edgar Hoover saying; "There is no Mafia!" over and over.


lol lol lol It was the Italian album
Posted By: BloodlettersandBadmen

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 11/26/14 07:43 AM

Salvatore Maranzano (July 31, 1886 – September 10, 1931) was an organized crime figure from the town of Castellammare del Golfo, Sicily. He is accused of instigating the Castellammarese War to seize control of the American Mafia operations, and briefly became the Mafia's "Boss of Bosses". He was assassinated by a younger faction led by Charles "Lucky" Luciano, who established a power-sharing arrangement rather than a "boss of bosses" in the hopes of preventing future wars.

http://youtu.be/WACvACqlGtk?list=PLQhDH_WZbs1N0jqZ9y9naMtgUfZ3VoVbo
Posted By: stern49

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/07/15 08:30 AM

TB, you mentioned that Don Vito Cascio Ferro had a drug pipeline between Italy and America. Can you elaborate on that? Like when that was and if he the first mafioso in America.
Posted By: cammybatts1

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 04/27/15 09:18 PM

hopefully skinny Joey wont get power drunk and start whacking people and fuck it up like scarfo.but I think Joey will keep things smooth and quiet.
Posted By: olivant

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/06/16 06:43 PM

Maybe this goes here:

"Frank Sinatra’s old casino at Lake Tahoe, closed for renovations for nearly three years, is now in bankruptcy. Months after halting work on a $49 million overhaul, the developer of the Cal Neva Resort & Casino has placed the venerable Tahoe property in Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings. The case has left the reopening in limbo, although the developer said in court papers the project can be finished in a few months. The national hotel chain that has contracted to operate the Cal Neva says on its website the property is scheduled to open next April. In a filing in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Santa Rosa, the developer said the property faces about $40 million in debt and will need $23.8 million"
Posted By: OakAsFan

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 08/28/16 02:21 AM

New owners of the Neva Lodge are claiming to make it high end, which is stupid. Trendy, free spending millennials do not go to North Shore, and never will. If they really want to keep Frank's old Neva on life support, they have to make it appealing to the 40 plus crowd.
Posted By: dsd

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 02/18/17 06:14 PM

Originally Posted By: BloodlettersandBadmen
Salvatore Maranzano (July 31, 1886 – September 10, 1931) was an organized crime figure from the town of Castellammare del Golfo, Sicily. He is accused of instigating the Castellammarese War to seize control of the American Mafia operations, and briefly became the Mafia's "Boss of Bosses". He was assassinated by a younger faction led by Charles "Lucky" Luciano, who established a power-sharing arrangement rather than a "boss of bosses" in the hopes of preventing future wars.

http://youtu.be/WACvACqlGtk?list=PLQhDH_WZbs1N0jqZ9y9naMtgUfZ3VoVbo




Was it Maranzano or Lucky Luc' who started the 5 family structure? I think I read in Valachi book,where he (JV)went to a hall in the Bronx(?)where Maranzano was allocating newly made guys to the newly created 5 families.
Posted By: UncleVig

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/05/17 03:46 PM

Even during the glory days of the mob before RICo and witness protection to be involved as an associate or even after you got made it was a dangerous way to make a living. All the shit about honor and glory is bullshit. Many assosiates and up dissapeared and presumed wacked.
That life is so full of backstabbing, greed, paranoia it isnt funny. Anyone ever notice the cancer rate among wiseguys? Ok most used to be heavy smokers but I think just the stress of living that life gets you sick, almost all of them had bad tickers. I know some guys that have been made and many more that are hangers on and from what I see the great majority at the end of their life if you tabulate the stress, prison, getting killed at the very end they broke even to blue collar work. If you make 250K a year clear for a 5 year run but than do 8 years in jail comes out to 100K a year? not for me. The federal laws now are ridiculous if you have an Italian last name and do a minor federal crime they give you the max.
Posted By: Moe_Tilden

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/05/17 03:59 PM

Who specifically has been given a tough sentence because of having an Italian surname?
Posted By: UncleVig

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/05/17 06:48 PM

Well I exaggerated that but what I mean is I know of people that are Italian and have associated that have been brought up on Federal charges for things not directly related to OC specifically but due to past associations and prosecutors blow their horn with insinuations and judges give more years than the minimum mandatory on federal sentencing guidelines. Having spent time around I know this to be true. Justice is not always blind especially if defendants do not have adequate representation to make substantial motions of suppression and sentence mitigation.
Posted By: hoodlum

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/06/17 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: UncleVig
Even during the glory days of the mob before RICo and witness protection to be involved as an associate or even after you got made it was a dangerous way to make a living. All the shit about honor and glory is bullshit. Many assosiates and up dissapeared and presumed wacked.
That life is so full of backstabbing, greed, paranoia it isnt funny. Anyone ever notice the cancer rate among wiseguys? Ok most used to be heavy smokers but I think just the stress of living that life gets you sick, almost all of them had bad tickers. I know some guys that have been made and many more that are hangers on and from what I see the great majority at the end of their life if you tabulate the stress, prison, getting killed at the very end they broke even to blue collar work. If you make 250K a year clear for a 5 year run but than do 8 years in jail comes out to 100K a year? not for me. The federal laws now are ridiculous if you have an Italian last name and do a minor federal crime they give you the max.
True, but then ,on the other hand,some wiseguys have a VERY substantial lifespan,into their nineties etc..Dominick Pollina as an example (102 yrs.)..I think maybe because they dont truly work a hard day's work in their life?..Christie Tick is another..I could go on..
Posted By: Julius

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/30/17 07:10 AM

There are Italian lineages that live for a very long time, but most aren't Sicilian. Most are from Sardegnia and pockets of Calabria (where the real power is located). Some of those who live for a long time may be benefiting from that. Life as a gangster is tough, but these are tough street guys and most of them didn't make much money as UncleVig indicated.
Posted By: python134r

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 05/25/18 08:43 PM

2nd post here, [quote=Turnbull]Many people on these boards, especially younger people, ask questions or make statements about Mob life that are often myths--not realities. I'd like to start a thread that helps clear up the myths. I'll post occasionally, and ask you to post your own ideas, thoughts, explanations. Here's the first:

"BEING "MADE" IN THE MOB IS DANGEROUS TO LIFE AND LIBERTY"[quote=TurnBull]

TurnBull, oh so very succinct, Greed, Fear, Violence, Good Thread.

I'll bite, for those whom never experienced sitting in a social club, let's say on Bath Ave, playing Gin or Pinochle for hours on end, air thick with cigarette smoke and Di Nobili cigars, every one there is in various stages of doing scores, gettin swag, planning to score and planning to sell cases of Jeans pilfered from Brooklyn West UPS

Then a unnamed persona who's club it is states that there is an open hit for let's say " Micheal Miccio" (Really Happened 80's) and if you eyeball him you need to do some work. Not the work most folks do but nasty,violent acts that is part of being in a crew, "low totem on the man pole" Some guy's have a knack, a calling so to speak, a good example Tommy Karate, brutal.....Roy Demeo and all those crazy kids from canarsie.

Oh and let's not forget US Attorneys, AUSA'S and FBI and OCCB. These folks will lead you to housing with the Federal Bureau of Prisons, for me, MCCNY,MDCNY, Lewisburg,Allenwood FCI and LOW. Otisville too, did a bullet at gladiator school Rikers Island C- 95 ,C76,HDM and West Facility during the crack wars of the 90's....... waste of time.......

Movies are just that, movies
Since the Godfather Movie a weird dynamic happens, do the street guys emulate the movies?

The only mob myth I know is John Franceze, almost 100 and active..................a mob xman
















Posted By: Japseye1

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities - 06/14/18 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by python134r
2nd post here, [quote=Turnbull]Many people on these boards, especially younger people, ask questions or make statements about Mob life that are often myths--not realities. I'd like to start a thread that helps clear up the myths. I'll post occasionally, and ask you to post your own ideas, thoughts, explanations. Here's the first:

"BEING "MADE" IN THE MOB IS DANGEROUS TO LIFE AND LIBERTY"[quote=TurnBull]

TurnBull, oh so very succinct, Greed, Fear, Violence, Good Thread.

I'll bite, for those whom never experienced sitting in a social club, let's say on Bath Ave, playing Gin or Pinochle for hours on end, air thick with cigarette smoke and Di Nobili cigars, every one there is in various stages of doing scores, gettin swag, planning to score and planning to sell cases of Jeans pilfered from Brooklyn West UPS

Then a unnamed persona who's club it is states that there is an open hit for let's say " Micheal Miccio" (Really Happened 80's) and if you eyeball him you need to do some work. Not the work most folks do but nasty,violent acts that is part of being in a crew, "low totem on the man pole" Some guy's have a knack, a calling so to speak, a good example Tommy Karate, brutal.....Roy Demeo and all those crazy kids from canarsie.

Oh and let's not forget US Attorneys, AUSA'S and FBI and OCCB. These folks will lead you to housing with the Federal Bureau of Prisons, for me, MCCNY,MDCNY, Lewisburg,Allenwood FCI and LOW. Otisville too, did a bullet at gladiator school Rikers Island C- 95 ,C76,HDM and West Facility during the crack wars of the 90's....... waste of time.......

Movies are just that, movies
Since the Godfather Movie a weird dynamic happens, do the street guys emulate the movies?

The only mob myth I know is John Franceze, almost 100 and active..................a mob xman


















Franzese is 101. He must be active, maybe not directly but he will have guys collect payments and let them carry out everything physical

I wish I could meet the guy or write to him before he dies!!
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