Who killed Tommy DeSimone

???

DeSimone was killed by The Gambinos because he killed Billy Batts, who was a made man. While it was never said who actually killed DeSomone, rumor has it that it was John Gotti who was behind the murder of DeSimone. Supposedly Batts was a friend of John Gotti.

Haven't you ever watched Goodfellas?

Don Cardi

He was also killed for other reasons though, one being he was also sleeping with the wife of a Gambino member. There's more I'm sure but that's one I know of.

i sure as hell didn't kill him. lol...
but i didn't know he was sleeping with a member of the gambino's wife. i'm pretty sure that him doing this is definatly a punishable offence.

He had also made similar transgressions against the Gambino's with one of their associates, nicknamed Foxy I believe. Something had happened where he was stealing from or had offended Foxy, and Gotti also used this, along with the Batts situation, the get permission to take DeSimone out.

I read the book for Goodfellas, Wiseguy, about a year ago, and this is all in there, so some of the details are hazy.

According to the book by Joe "Dogs" Ianuzzi ("Joe Dogs: The Life and Crimes of a Mobster") the hit on DeSimone was done by Gambino soldier Tommy Agro.

Does the Joe Dogs story also include a recipe for pasta with a tomoato marinera?

tony b.

Wait...In which family was Paul Vario, so what family DeSimone/Hill associated with? The Lucchese right?

And when Tommy de Vito was about to be made (in the Lucchese family), to which family belonged the guys that shot him? (I'm talking Goodfellas now)

Tommy DeSimone was a member of the Lucchese Family, but after he murdered a member of John Gotti's Regime (Billy Bats), the Gambino Family got permission from the Lucchese Family (probably Vittorio Amuso or Paul Vario) to murder Tommy DeSimone before he was "made."

That actually is an interesting question. If Tommy was being killed by Gambino men, it wouldnt make sense for the guys taking him to his making ceremony to be members of the Gambinos, theyd have to by Lucchese's.

Never thought about that. Might just be a bit of directorial initiative on Scorsese's part, seeing as he deleted the whole John Gotti part of the story. In the movie its phrased as if Lucchese guys are killing Tommy, but for whacking a Gambino man. Doesnt make sense.

Also, does anyone know if the real Tommy was killed like in the movie, thinking he was about to be made?

http://www.answers.com/topic/thomas-desimone


It was not until Henry Hill became an FBI informant in 1980 that the authorities found out what had happened to DeSimone. It was related to the murder of Billy Batts back in 1970 (Billy Batts is only an alias used for the sake of the book and movie, the basis for that character was Ronald Jerrothe). "Batts" had been an associate of John Gotti, and by the end of 1978 Gotti and his crew had somehow found out that Batts had been killed and more importantly that DeSimone was responsible; the reason was supposed to have been over a woman. The Gotti Crew had lured DeSimone to a meeting with promises of 'making' him into a fully fledged member of the Mafia, but instead had executed and buried him. DeSimone was aged twenty-eight when he was killed, and - like Batts - his body has yet to be found by authorities. After Tommy was killed, Gotti went after his cousin, who had known too much about the Batts murder to stay alive.

Also find another theory on it

http://goodfellas.martin-scorsese.net/information/real_story_tommydesimone.html

Tommy's real name was Tommy DeSimone, and was played by Joe Pesci in the film. The real life Tommy was much taller, although his menace was much the same.

Tommy was suspected of being on the Lufthansa job because an employee noticed one of the robbers had very shiny shoes (Tommy was well known for his dapper dressing and immaculate shoes).

He was murdered for a couple of reasons. First, he killed Batts, a made man of the Gambino crew. Second, he fooled around with another Gambino's wife. A made man as well, Foxy was in prison during this time, however, his capo did not want to exact revenge at that time. According to Joseph "Joe Dogs" Iannuzzi, Tommy Agro did the hit on DeSimone. Another possibility, although less supported, is that Paolo LiCastri was the hit man. In any case, a sit-down was conducted between Paul Vario and the Luccheses, and the Gambinos to order the hit.

Thanks for posting this and the link, scarface.
I read Henry Hill's full account of the Tommy DiSimone story in his book, "Gangsters and Goodfellas." It confuses, rather than clarifies, the story. Please bear with me--it's complicated:
Hill describes Batts and his murder exactly as portrayed in "Goodfellas." He says Tommy, although an unmade associate of the Lucchese family under Paul Vario, also hung with a Gambino crew that included John Gotti. He did jobs with Foxy, an unmade, non-Italian associate who Hill describes as Gotti's "protege." Foxy became enraged when Tommy bedded Foxy's sister. He banged on Tommy's door and when he opened it, decked Tommy. Tommy drew a hidden gun, killed Foxy, "got up and walked out, just like that," apparently making no attempt to hide Foxy's body.
Tommy was out on $100k bail on a hijacking charge at the time. Paulie, Henry and Johnny Dio were in the Federal pen in Lewisberg, PA. Hill writes that Tommy became paranoid that the Gambinos would whack him in the street because his protector, Vario, was in the can. So he asked his bail bondsman to revoke his bail and was sent to Lewisberg, where he surfaced on Mob Row. According to Hill, Mob Row had dorms (like the one shown in "Goodfellas") for each of the Five Families. There, Tommy hung out with Angelo Ruggiero, Gotti's right-hand man, who was in the "Gambino Dorm." All of this happened in '74.
Tommy next appears in Hill's story in 1979, after the Lufthansa job was pulled. He writes that Jimmy Burke "had the entire Lufthansa heist crew whacked out of desperation. He knew it was only a matter of time before the Feds flipped one of them. The first two to go were Stacks Edwards and Marty Krugman. Tommy DiSimone was the third to get whacked..."
Now, you'd get the impression that Jimmy whacked Tommy. But no! Hill next says that Paulie ordered it: Paulie "despised" Tommy "but put up with him because Jimmy loved him and he was such a good earner and whacker...They probably had a big meeting with Paul Castellano...The crews got together on this hit because Tommy was Burke's gut, and Burke was so powerful that he could've been the capo if he was Italian. So Paulie needed an alliance to take out Jimmy's guy." Hill then recounts the story of the phony ceremony to "make" Tommy, and says that Gotti was the triggerman

Right away, you can see that this story is absurd. First, if Tommy was out on bail in a hijacking case, it'd mean that he hadn't been convicted or lost an appeal yet. If his bail were revoked, he'd be sent to the Rikers Island lockup (if it were a state charge), or the Manhattan House of Detention (if it was a Federal rap)-- not Lewisberg, which is a prison for those convicted of Federal crimes. Second, if he was afraid that Gotti's crew would whack him in revenge for Foxy (and presumably Batts), why on earth would he maneuver to get to Lewisberg's Mafia Row and hang out with Angelo Ruggiero--Gotti's best friend? Third, why would it take five years after he killed Batts and Foxy for Tommy to be whacked? And fourth, why would Paul Vario (who Don Cardi described, in an excellent bio here, as the most powerful capo in the Lucchese Family) need permission from Castellano to whack a guy in his outfit who wasn't made? And when did Jimmy Burke, another unmade guy in Vario's crew who wasn't even Italian, get so powerful that the mighty Vario dared not move against his pal Tommy without permission from Castellano?

This thread points up the difficulty of doing serious research on Mob stuff. I like a good story, and it doesn't necessarily have to be true for me to like it. And Henry Hill is a great storyteller. But I take everything he says with a ton of salt. To give another example: Hill says he met and became pals with Joe Namath, the Jets' famous playboy quarterback. Namath told him to "bet the ranch" on the Jets in the '69 Superbowl, when the Jets were big underdogs. Hill brags that he made $100k--and not only didn't tell Vario, but made the money from Vario's bookies. He constantly brags about how he lied to and cheated Vario. Do you think that Vario, one of the most powerful Mob guys in New York, got that way by being hoodwinked and ripped off by an unmade pissant like Hill?

I heard a story dunno if its true or not but here goes While Henry was in jail after Paul got out Paul and Henry's wife had an affair then Tommy tried to rape her and Paul went and told the Gambino family about Bats and Gotti was the trigger man at the ceremony thats what I heard I dunno if its true or not

That story is in Hill's book, "Gangsters and Goodfellas." Is it true? Could be, but you must also ask (anyway, I ask) :rolleyes: :
--Since Henry and Karen are divorced, did he make up that story to make her look bad?
--Why would Vario, a most powerful capo, need to go to the Gambinos for permission to whack Tommy, who was an unmade associate in his crew?

I thought he went to them so they would kill Tommy to avoid Jimmy is my only guess

Yes Turnbull, Henry Hill is a very good storyteller. Just in what you quoted and I re-quoted alone shows what a storyteller he really is. The point that you make about Tommy asking that his bail be revoked, being a probable lie on Hill's part, for the reasons that you posted, is a very good point. And to add to what you said and coroborate your statement about Tommy going back to prison being a probable lie, Hill claims that Tommy was hanging out with Angelo Ruggerio while in prison, and that it all took place in 1974.

Well if that was really the case then DeSimone would have also been hanging out with Gotti while in prison. Because in 1973 John Gotti participated in the killing of James McBratney, and wound up doing two years in prison for it. And that would put the time somewhere between 1973 and 1975. I also believe tht Gotti and Ruggerio served thier prison terms together.

So if what Henry Hill claimed about Tommy DeSimone hanging out with Ruggerio in prison was true, then why in the world wouldn't he have said that DeSimone was hanging out with Gotti instead of just saying Ruggerio?

Because as you correctly point out, Henry Hill is a very good storyteller.

Oh, and thank you for the fine compliment that you gave me about the Paul Vario Biography that I posted.


Don Cardi

The compliment was well deserved, DC. As I said in your thread at that time, I never knew Vario was such a bigshot until you informed me.

Turnbull, do you agree with my point in regards to the time frame and what Henry Hill claims about Tommy and Angelo hanging out together in prison?


For any of the new members who may be interested in reading the Paulie Vario biography that Turnbull is talking about, here's the link : http://www.gangsterbb.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000910


Don Cardi

With all due respect, and out of pure curiosity, where did you read or learn that Billy Batts' real name was Ronald Jerrothe? I am sincerely curious to know.

According to several books that I have read and from some research that I've done, Billy Batts' real name was William Devino.


Don Cardi

Gotti was arrested for the McBratney murder on June 3, 1974. He pleaded guilty to a reduced charge, and several months must have passed between his arrest and the start of his prison term. I believe he served two years on that rap, and Angelo Ruggiero was imprisoned with him. Gotti was still in prison when Carlo Gambino died in October, 1976, so it's possible that Tommy DiSimone was in Lewisberg with Gotti--depending on how long Tommy was in Lewisberg.
But, was Tommy really in Lewisberg at all? We have only Henry Hill's account. As I said in an earlier post, Henry Hill said Tommy asked for his bail to be revoked, but that didn't necessarily mean he'd be incarcerated in Lewisberg. And if he did go to Lewisberg, why would he hang out with Ruggiero, Gotti's best pal--and, as you noted, possibly Gotti's cellmate?

With all due respect, and out of pure curiosity, where did you read or learn that Billy Batts' real name was Ronald Jerrothe? I am sincerely curious to know.

According to several books that I have read and from some research that I've done, Billy Batts' real name was William Devino.


Don Cardi [/b][/quote]I'd also be interested to know. In "Mob Star," Capeci's excellent book on Gotti, he never mentions or identifies identifies Billy Batts (though he refers to Foxy), but does cover a William Battista, a bookie who disappeared, as Billy Batts was supposed to. But Capeci thinks Battista might have been an informant.

Gangster and Goodfellas is a great read. Reads almost as well as Wiseguy. Turnbulls right, Hill's a good story teller.

If I remember correctly though, Hill does admit that his evidence on Tommy's hit by Gotti came from another informer, Sal Polici, a Gambino guy after Goodfellas was filmed. So yes definately take the story, like Turnbull says, with a ton of salt.

His other revelations are just as good though claiming Michele Sindona, God's banker, wasn't just taking money from the pizza connection but was actually involved in the smuggling of drugs to the USA with his diplomatic immunity. True or not I don't know but the theory is interesting.

The feeling I've got from reading the book is he's just name dropping for sales and interest - Nameth, Gotti, Sindona etc.

DeSimone's fifth murder was of John Gotti's protege, a young gangster named Fredrick "Foxy" Civano. DeSimone had dated Foxy's sister and then beaten her up when he dumped her, prompting Foxy to threaten to kill DeSimone. When DeSimone heard about the threat, he went to Foxy's apartment and knocked on the door; Foxy opened the door, punched DeSimone in the face, and then DeSimone shot Foxy between the eyes, killing him.

Since I am still new at learing about the mafia way of life, since Tommy DeSimone whacked Billy Batts doesn't that make him a made man? Or do you have to whack more than 1 person? Sorry if that was a stupid question

Actually, since Tommy whacked a made man, it made Tommy a dead man.
I think you're mixing this up with the Mafia lore that an "associate" has to kill someone for the Mob in order to be "made." But, according to Mob lore, no one can mess with a made man unless there's a sitdown.

Besides having 100 posts to be MADE, what do you have to do to get made then

Supposedly, in Mob "lore," you have to serve a long apprenticeship (as Christopher did in "Sopranos") and then, if you're lucky, they tap you on the shoulder and tell you to kill someone for them. Then you get "made" in the ceremony with the burning saint's card, finger-pricking, etc.
As a practical matter, there's no such rule because a Don can make whomever he wants, for whatever reasons. Some follow that kind of ceremony, others don't. Fat Vinny Teresa, in his book, "My Life in the Mob," said that the Boston outfit under Raymond Patriarca never had a formal ceremony: "They just called you to the office one day and told you that you were in." Salvatore (Bill) Bonanno was being groomed by his father as the next Don, and he never mentioned being formally made. John Gotti served as a crew chief in the Gambinos long before he was formally made. Jimmy Burke functioned as a crew chief in the Luccheses and he didn't even have a drop of Italian blood.

And it still begs the question of what really happened to Tommy DiSimone.
I'm thinking that if the Tommy/Batts thing really happened the way it was portrayed in "Goodfellas," it showed that Paulie had a pretty good head on his shoulders:

Tommy and Batts had their shouting match in front of witnesses. As Henry said, "His [Batts's] crew's gonna be looking for him." Probably some of his crew were among the witnesses, but even if they weren't, they'd have heard about it soon enough. And they'd know that Tommy was responsible for Batts's disappearance. In the Mob, suspicion is as good as conviction--they ain't never heard of no due process or rules of evidence.
Since Tommy wasn't a made man, they could have whacked him without further ado. But since Tommy was with Paulie, they probably made their beef to him--they didn't ask him what happened to Batts, they told him, and no doubt demanded that Paulie take care of it (and absorb the risks and expenses, too). So, I'm guessing, when Paulie had his tet-a-tet with Henry, he already knew Batts was dead and Tommy had killed him. He was simply feeling out Henry to see if he had any additional info that might be useful before he acted.
Paulie could have told the Gambinos to go fly a kite: "Hey, Tommy ain't one o'my made guys, an' he hangs out with youse guys too--you whack him." But Paulie, clever fellow, would have found it prudent to take care of Tommy. By "doing the right thing," he could pose as "a man of honor, honoring Mafia tradition." The Gambinos might owe him a favor in the future. And he was good and ready to get rid of Tommy: as he told Henry, "Tommy's a cowboy...he's got too much to prove." By getting into a public shouting match with a made guy, and later whacking him, Tommy proved himself a serious liability to Paulie. Finally, if Paulie had let the Gambinos take care of it, they might have whacked Henry and Jimmy, too--and they were good earners whom Paulie wanted to retain. So, by whacking Tommy, Paulie killed several birds with one stone. Smart guy.

i know a guy who grew up around and knew jimmys son and stuff yes james burke was that powerful paulie would not want mess with jimmy but jimmy also had respect for paulie and tommy did hang with the gotti crew also all the families knew that paulies boys were crazy and had tons of respect tommy got clipped for alot of stuff he was crazy and paulie got sick of tommy, plus other families were starting to talk to paulie about tommy and with tommy trying to rape hills ex,that made paulie pissed because he had a big thing with hills wife and with the other families backing paulie jimmy would not get involved

This is a great thread i love hearing all the different theories, i can't wait to pick up the books.

Is there a way to buy these books online to view as i have trouble reading from real paperback books.

I'm sure it was Tommy Agro - Desimones wife says when she last seen him he borrowed 60 bucks from her, quite embarrassing for a guy that was supposed to be made

I know most don't have good things to say about Joe Doggs but he comes across as believable. He says it was Tommy Agro so I believe that version. Henry Hill is a drunken story teller.

yeah joe dogs and nick the crow seem like they are actually truthful informants. they aren't really star seeking. they also had valid reasons for flipping.

joe dogs looks like a great cook tho..

I read or saw the same guy that killed Tommy killed his brother also

yeah - and was also wanting to kill the last remaining brother, for a laugh probably

He joked about killing the last brother so he could hit the "DeSimone trifecta"

that tommy agro is a cold hearted guy ... seems a little nuts when you hear him on the wiretap..

There is a discussion of DeSimone and Foxy, as well as Gotti, in "Mob Killer," the book about Charles Carneglia at around page 50-51. In fact Charlie was packing a gun to a wedding because he feared trouble because of the DeSimone situation. That was when a court officer spotted the gun in a diner and got into a fight with Carneglia, who got busted for the gun.

yeah it's a good book .. just finished it last week...charles is fucking crazy man.. he had a life size cut out of ayatollah khomeini in his garage.. for target practice I hope

The whole desimone situation will always be mysterious because there is a couple of theories. One for agro and one for gotti. personally i always felt agro since he was a hitman and gotti although he was a brutal guy was not a triggerman instead he ordered many hits since he was capo. I do think the bergin crew killed Joseph spione who was desimone's brother in law

yeah agree with that ... I think they killed tommy's brother in-law because he refused to set him up

^^Jesus Christ.

who killed Roy Demeo?

The Mickey Mouse Club lit him up to get there button on the real deal

obviously The Iceman

You guys should check out the movie "At the Sinatra Club." It is also a book. The writer is Salvatore Polisi, who at the time claims to have been a Colombo Family associate. He also testified against Gotti in '85.

He says Gotti killed DeSimone for killing Foxy Jerothe, a made guy named "Melons", and he generally didn't like him. Plus, if DeSimone killed William "Billy Bats" DeVino, there is more motive. Polisi and Henry Hill knew each other, before and after they were both in witness protection. Polisi claims the all those guys knew each other and hung out together in the late '60s and early '70s as young men.

It is also possible that Thomas Agro and John Gotti, both made Gambino members, were both present when Tommy DeSimone was killed. His body has never been found. Lots of crews had reasons for wanting him dead, Luccheses, Gambinos, ie. So, to me, one, some, or a bunch of the motive theories could be true.

Salvatore Polisi also seems a lot more crebible to me than Henry Hill did sometimes. But, for much of it, their stories coincide, and the both believe John Gotti to have been the trigger man in DeSimone's killing.

That movies shit, watched the corny intro then switched it off.

agree ^ rented it on dvd and it was blury. maybe cause its an american disc on english tv?

i read a few chapters in the sinatara club its bad but the guy seems close to foxy guy they killed, the big question is why did they find bones of tommy in jimmy the gent bars backyard they dug it up when hill fliped? it was the bar in queens near jfk.

Yeah, the movie was pretty corny, but I am talking about the historicity of the testimony and experience of Sal Polisi. It has got to be worth something. His accounts make a few connections the weren't able to be made before.

I guess I didn't know that any remains of Tommy DeSimone had ever been recovered. Where is that documented?

I know that in '04, the police and FBI were looking for DeSimone's remains in Queens at the "mafia graveyard" where they found remains of Sonny Red and Trinchera before. I heard they didn't find and others.

Sal Polisi is pretty credible at least more than hill. Tommy was fucking and beating up Foxy's sister which is what caused foxy to threaten to kill tommy and then tommy being the nut he was killed foxy. In december of 78 gotti came to see sal and told him that it was time to take tommy out but sal didnt want to be involved. Now i dont think sal ever said that gotti was the triggerman but he did say that gotti orchestrated it and might have been present. Im sure angelo gene and even tommy agro who knew desimone was involved

Good point. Interesting.

here's a thing on sal polisi and his new book

http://www.fivefamiliesnyc.com/2012/07/preview-of-sinatra-club-my-life-inside.html

Awesome! Thank you!

Interesting post. I agree that Henry Hill isn't the most reliable of reference points. However I would say you have underestimated Burke's status within the hierachy.

Like Bufalino's driver John 'the rehead' Francis (ex-IRA) hitman there were associates of the mob who were more revered in status than made men because of how dangerous they were.

No one wanted to mess with Roy De Meo when he was an associate and besides, one thing Henry Hill did get right was the fact that in those days wiseguys (made men or not) were getting whacked, left, right and centre. It wasn't that strange for someone of a higher rank to be taken out. It was up to whoever did it though to cover their tracks.

Jimmy Burke was a more important figure in the New York underworld even if he could never be a made man. In the film you can see him telling the made guy that he was disrespectful, something an associate wouldn't be able to do you would think but obviously Jimmy Burke had the status to tell him that he was being a "little offensive, just a little bit". Also, it is implicated he was involved in the hit, but never received the same punishment as his status in the underworld dwarfed Billy Bats.

Another mob figure who was Irish with a very high status was Fat Tony Salerno's right-hand man John Sullivan. It was John Sullivan's job to execute the hits carried out by an another Sullivan (Mad Dog) on the West Side Of Manhattan in the 70's.

Another underworld gang that had equal parity with the Kansas City Mafia was Buster Wortman's East Side St. Louis gang that worked in cohorts with the Kansas/Chicago Outfit until the 80's.

Ray Flynn blew up John Spica (man alleged of having involvement out the hit on Martin luther King) in a deadly war akin to the Clevelend bombing wars of the 70's.

In fact what set this apart was that Ray Flynn's connections to the Outfit stopped him getting whacked but eventually he double-crossed the mob but unlike Danny Greene he won the war with the Kansas City Mafia by aligning himself with the Syrian mob and blowing his way to the top of the St. louis underworld.

He was a ruthless man, so dangerous that he actually managed to win a war against the mob in their prime be it against one of the less powerful mafia families. However, the Chicago Outfit could have intervened but for some reason did not.

Joseph Aiuppa would not challenge the move for Flynn to blow his way to the top of the Union, even though he was warring against the Kansas City Mafia. Again, hierachy wasn't important and it is mysterious as to why Joseph Aiuppa did not intervene. Flynn's status and his East Side Gang's long term connections to Capone dated back through Berne, Stoneking, Buster Wortman and so on. More light needs to be shed on this case but you get my drift. Hirachies are there to be challenged. often they were, succesfully and with approval of one made man to another of similar status in the underworld who wasn't a made man.

The war raged for control of Local 42 in St. louis. That the Outfit would relinquish control to an Irishman like Ray flynn is unthinkable you would think but not to those who know how dangerous and fearsome a power Flynn was in the underworld at that time. Ray Flynn won control though in a battle the Irish mob won. http://www.americanmafia.com/Cities/St_Louis.html


http://www.riverfronttimes.com/bestof/2008/award/best-book-by-a-local-author-582152/

Tommy DeSimone had a wife?

Yeah, Tommy had a wife.

So Sean, do you think that Jimmy Burke maybe didn't have so much affection for Tommy and would have given him up?

Jimmy actually had alot of affection for tommy which is funny considering they were both maniacs. In fact henry hill said the only time jimmy shed a tear was when tommy was killed. paul Vario on the other hand hated tommy and when he found out tommy tried to rape karen he gladly gave him up

I thought his name was William Bentvena?
I was also reading a few things about one William Bentvena who was picked up in 1963 with a bunch of heroin from Cotroni.

I read his last name was Bentvena on here, and found this
http://openjurist.org/319/f2d/916/united-states-v-bentvena

Then this with section about them getting arrested.
seems like some sort of timeline of the 50s
http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/puparo-presents-the-roaring-2

Yes. Billy Batts real name was William Bentvena. How the myth of the name "William Devino" was born and created is a mystery. No one seems to know. But the Devino info that can be found on Wikipedia is just plain rubbish. Have people nothing better to do than to write fairy tales on Wiki? It´s a pain in the butt!!!

I´m actually working on receiving a Billy Batts picture. I intensely hope to get a hold of a mugshot or anything showing his face. As soon as I have it, I´ll post it on here. That is if I´m successfull.

Hairy! It would be awesome to see that pic!

Burke had taken over Bentvena's loanshark business while Bentvena was in prison. Henry Hill also cites this as another reason why bentvena was whacked.

DeSimone was murdered because of quite a few things that he did. I'm not sure whether the murder went down as neatly and as smoothly as it happened in the film.

I find it hard to believe Tommy would walk into such an easy trap. I heard he got snatched off the street but then I've heard alot of things.

The truth is Henry Hill probably doesn't know how it really went down and the "getting his button" aspect of the storyline is probably conjecture.

Personally I can't see Tommy walking into a trap like that. He was a stone cold psycopath killer himself and him and Burke knew every trick in the book. Of course it's entirely possible given the egos of guys like Tommy but personally I don't buy it. He knew there was reason he could be killed and it's not as if it was a hit he never would have seen coming.

I heard one story that says Tommy was snatched from the street and went down fighting, put up a hell of a fight in fact and took a lot of overpowering to make him go down.

This was a guy from North Jersey who said he used to live in Queens back in the day etc...

Anyone else hear any different than the version laid down in the movie?

Tommy wasnt the smartest guy in the world. Tommy never knew that he was in any real danger. He had killed Batts 8 years pior and nothing was done about it. I mean he was known for being a psycho but he also wanted to be a made guy badly. I mean one of the reasons why Tommy was so brutal was because his brother was an informant and Tommy felt that he had to prove himself to honor tje Desimone name. I mean i've heard a few things. Obvioudly killing billy batts/foxy was the biggest thing. Also Tommy attempted to rape karen hill who at that time was having a affair with paul vario. Joe Dogs has said that Tommy Agro came up with the being made ruse because he knew Tommy wanted to be made

No, it's possible I guess and it does make sense I suppose. I suppose it's part of the life. Like the junkie who never thinks he's gonna o'd every mob associate or half-assed wiseguy thinks its never gonna happen to them. It's only everyone else that's sitting ducks.

But yeah, just wanted to see if anyone else heard those different versions but as you say, they appear to be well known rumours that have circulated for years already.

Which makes the whole thing sketchy because Henry Hill (WHO IS A FUCKING LIAR ) said Tommy got whacked when he thought he was going to be made..... If he was in the Lucchese Family and was going to be made by them wouldnt he have found suspicion in the fact Tommy Agro from the Gambino's was there? I mean im no genius but if i was being made with the Lucchese Family and a bunch of Gambino wise guys are here with me around me etc etc id feel like something bad was about to happend... hey thats just me though especially after killing bats

tommy wasn't exactly a sharp thinker. I doubt he suspected retribution for batts since they got rid of the body. Also tommy has constantly strung out on coke at that time according to sal polosi

Foxy's Name was Ronald Jerothe just a FYI

We actually don´t know a squat about what really happened to Tommy DeSimone. His body has never been found and all we have is Hill´s and Ianuzzi´s inconsistent words of DeSimone´s demise. Was Agro charged for the murder? I believe he was not, neither was John Gotti.

If you ask me, I´d say Tommy DeSimone was a Lucchese problem. Even if DeSimone was guilty of Billy Batts murder (which I´m not disputing), the most likely triggerman was a Lucchese.

Keep in mind guys, just because DeSimone´s murder was described in a certain way (in one of the best Mafia movies ever done I must add) you shouldn´t take it as gospel.

I totally agree with everything you've said here well said Hairy

In the Jimmy Burke episode of Mobsters, Joe Coffey said that Tommy was beaten and chopped up in the basement of the ravenite. That's the first time I heard that version but its believable if you believe the Tommy Argo/John Gotti version.

If he was killed in the Bergin basement with a chainsaw, it was not Tommy Agro. TA was based in Florida and hardly knew Gotti and never would do a hit with him, why would he?

I believe Coffey is right. Likely killers? Take your pick, Lino, Boreillo, Johnson. Gotti wouldn't have done it though

Agro was probably talking tough. Also Billy Batts was not close to Gotti, he was a friend though of Carmine Fatico. Gotti wanted Simone, because Foxy had been much a closer friend to Gotti than Desimone ever was. Gotti's kids even loved Foxy and Gotti probably didn't like Desimone much. Why would he?

So truth of it is, he was killed by one of Gotti's gang in the Bergin bar. But Agro had nothing to do with it and neither did anyone else

The hit was planned...we can probably all agree on that? I would also imagine it was carried out by the gambino crew otherwise Jimmy Burke would have got wind of it if it was Lucchese. Im not convinced it would take place in any HQ-probably more likely some non-descript basement apartment - is this not the usual location for a ceremony if we accept the rouse? We'll simply never know who carried out the hit unless some wiseguy spills the beans-but its pushing nearly 35 years ago so its unlikely! Who was made around that time? Maybe as a reward? Good to guess and hear everyones thoughts!

I don't know why, but it is pretty interesting to me.

And I agree, well said HairyKnuckles.

I read somewhere that bruno facciola was in on the desimone hit

Now we are getting somewhere. Sounds extremely interesting. Facciolo was a Lucchese guy and member of Vario´s crew. TommyKarate, do you remember where you read that?

I believe it says that in Henry Hill's book Gangsters and Goodfellas, Bruno Facciolo and Peter Vario.

I think John Gotti was at Grenhaven at this point, not Lewisburg. I may be wrong though.

At The Sinatra Club (2012), (Sal Polisi) pp. 347-8:

"I was shocked by John's timing. After four years of expecting him to whack Tommy, he decides to do it when I least expect it, after a heist so big all the Families including the Gambinos were sure to get a taste.

"There was a lot I wanted to say to John, but you didn't explain yourself in the Mob. I had to give him a yes or no on the spot. I told him no. He didn't say another word. He just got in his car and drove away.

"I would have liked to tell John that I loved Fox as much as he did and that I hated Tommy for what he did, but a lot had changed since then. I wasn't interested in becoming a made guy anymore. But more than that, I no longer really held Tommy responsible. A lot of time had passed, and I felt like it was the life that killed Fox. If it hadn't been Tommy, it would have been some cop or an armed guard on a truck or a hothead Colombian drug dealer whose girlfriend Fox was f-----g. I always more or less liked Tommy. So did Fox, up until Tommy messed with his sister. Killing Tommy now seemed to me like another f-----g waste, just like him killing Fox was a waste.

1979

"In January, a month after Johnny paid me that visit and offered me a chance to avenge Fox's death and get in on a hit that would have earned me my button, Tommy "Two Guns" DeSimone disappeared.

"For a long time I didn't know how it went down for Tommy. There were a lot of conflicting stories at the time, and the Goodfellas movie fudged the details and didn't make it clear what exactly happened or who did it.

"The full story comes from Henry Hill, who was good friends with Tommy, and he made it a point to find out what happened as best he could.

"The way Henry tells the story: Tommy was whacked by Gotti's crew for killing Billy Batts, a made Gambino guy, back in 1970, and for Fox, who wasn't made but was with John and the crew at the Bergin. Henry says that it was Paul Vario-who always hated Tommy himself but protected him because he was with Jimmy Burke, and Jimmy was his biggest earner-who gave Tommy to the Gambinos.

"Henry's explanation of why Paulie gave Tommy up has to be believed. He says Paulie was having an affair with Henry's wife Karen while Henry was in prison. At the same time, Tommy got wasted on coke and put the moves on Karen too. She told him to f--- off and he beat the s--- out of her. That enraged Paulie, who not only gave Tommy up to Gotti, he also drove Tommy to the fake induction ceremony himself.

"The part in the movie where Jimmy bangs down the phone and cries when he finds out what happened was true, Henry says. Only he and Burke were in Florida when they made the call, not outside a diner in New York.

"When Tommy got to the house where he thought he was going to be made, there really was a ceremony planned-only it wasn't the one he hoped for. John was there. And instead of me, so was Tommy Argo, the Gambino guy who owned Sebastian's. Argo also whacked one of Tommy's brothers, the one who was the rat and who was the reason Gotti always hated Tommy.

"One thing Henry says makes me glad I turned down John's offer to lend a hand in avenging Fox's death: Gotti and Argo didn't just whack Tommy. They tortured him and killed him slowly. Henry says that John made sure Tommy's death 'took a long time.'

"That was just one of the sickening things that happened back then. And there was more yet to come."

That moron Polisi couldn't even get Tommy AGRO's name right.

But that is what Polisi has in his book on Desimone's murder. It's on page 348.

http://books.google.com/books?id=QsuLKxDtHbUC&pg=PA348

Saw this on some music forum but the poster didn't say where he got it from. Hill never tells the same story twice. He was a fucking degenerate idiot.

"When Henry Hill became an FBI informant in 1980, he told authorities that DeSimone had been murdered by the Gambino Crime Family. The full details were unknown until 1994, when Hill, in his book Gangsters and Goodfellas, gave the whole story of the events leading up to DeSimone's death. Hill's wife, Karen, had been having an affair with Hill's boss, Mafia Capo Paul Vario. When Hill was sentenced to prison, DeSimone approached Karen Hill for sex; when she turned him down, DeSimone attempted to rape her. In retaliation, Paul Vario approached the Gambino crew and revealed that DeSimone had murdered Foxy and Billy Batts without first seeking permission from the Gambino family, violating mafia protocol. Sometime in January 1979, DeSimone was contacted and told that he was going to be "made." Peter Varýo and Bruno Facciolo took him to a house, where he was executed."

The same paragraph is on DeSimones wiki page so thats probably where this other guy got it from.

Well, I hear what you are saying, and maybe Polisi was/is a moron and maybe Hill was a lying degenerate, and maybe not. But I am pretty sure they know/knew a lot more about it than we do.

Their testimony has to count for something. After all they knew these jokers personally.

Well sure they know more then i or we do. I never said i knew anything about it. But that doesn't mean what he does say is the truth.

I'm really not trying to start an arguement with you over Hill, all i'm saying is don't believe everything that clown said was the truth.

Hill wasn't there when they killed DeSimone, so how can he be 100% sure about who was there and who wasn't? I doubt anyone told Hill the real details. I'm sure he heard rumors that were going around though, but who really knows. With that lying sack of shit Hill i don't believe anything he said as a fact unless it's backed up with a second source. But maybe thats just me, i don't know. Over the years, after each interview he did i found him less credible each time he talked. I really did.

And Polisi is just saying what Hill said, he wasn't offering any new info on it. But he did say he believed Henry.

Ok? Take care.

I believe vario and the luchesses were responsible. Bruno was under Paul vario it makes sense he'd be in on it.and I've never read that book I read this jus scourn the internet 1day but who knows really

I got you bro, and I am not trying to argue either. And Hill was full of garbage a lot of the time. I just think what Hill (and Polisi) said has to have a little merit.

agro whacked a few of the desimonne bros and mentored some too.

Didn't Agro say he had whacked all three?

''Desimone Trifecta'' Agro called it.

Here's a few reason's from what I've gathered.

1.Billy Bats

2.Foxy Jerothe

3.Attempted rape of Karen Hill

4.Luthanza Hiest. (Least favourable motive, I seen somewhere that it was Burke who planned it as he didn't want to pay Tommy his cut. But giving Henrys story about how Burke was really upset about his death I doubt this one.)

5. Paul Vario didn't like him. (But that's mainly to do with number 2 as I also heard Paul Vario was having an affair with Karen Hill.)

If im wrong my bad but just a few reason's which you all probably know about anyways.

Has his body ever been found? There are different informers naming different people as his killers, and different versions of how he was killed. Seems impossible to know what is real story.

his body has never been found. I think he was killed in January of 79 so im sure at this point it will remain a mystery

I am surprised that his body has never been found, considering how many high and low level informers there have been since his death. Does that open up the possibility he was killed by an associate over something like a personal feud, or perhaps even by Jimmy Burke? We've all watched Goodfellas, and seen De Niro as Burke get upset over the death, but that is Henry Hill's version of events.

I may be in serious trouble if I say this, but, I have too...

Twas the gunman on the grassy knoll.

I doubt it there is a lot of evidence to suggest that either the bergin crew or tommy agro had something to do with his death. The fact that both billy batts and foxy( both gotti friends) were killed by tommy suggest thats the bergin crew had something to do with his death. also besides henry hill sal polisi who was a friend of tommy has said that gotti approached him about killing tommy