The Wire

Holy Hell, how freakin' great is The Wire ?

I totally missed out when this was running, despite my mates and critics alike heaping praise on it. Finally, i caught an episode last week, and had to go out and by the series. Goddamn. I haven't watched so much T.V since I bought the first 3 seasons of Soprano's and watched them in a row.
(Actually, i did the same with Deadwood recently, so maybe not as long ago as i think.

For those who, like me until fairly recently, dont know about it, the series is a crime-drama set in Baltimore, Maryland.
Each series has a theme, and the first is particularly enticing, set amongst the rival drug gangs of the city. This stuff is gritty, it just drags you in. The later series go on to cover a range of themes.

Some great acting and casting. Alongside the numerous street gangs and drug-rings are various criminals, criminal groups and the police that pursue them, and the authorities they in turn answer to. In particular i really dig the Greek Mafia sub-plot, involving, funnily enough, a gang of Greek mobsters who come to the city and set up shop.

Aaargggh. I really cant describe how good this shit is. Ive heard it described as the best television show ever, and for me its definitly on par with The Soprano's, Oz, Brotherhood, and Carnivale (thats right Carnivale. Hey, dont knock it. I loved it. If only they didn't produce so many other great shows, i would have boycotted HBO for not giving me a third series. The Wire makes up for it though.)

The Wikipedia entry has a bunch of info, for anyone that wants to check out the casts or whatever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wire

Highy, highly reccomended. Highly.

You are right mate,it is awesome. There is already a thread about it floating around somewhere though,i'm just to lazy too look for it

It wass a great show with some EXCELLENT writing and ACTING.

Oh so it really is as great as everyone has been saying??
I have seent the box set and people say it's just as good as the sopranos but I have been a bit reserved. I might go and get it.
What is it that is so good about it?

The writing, acting and storytelling was all top-notch.
There were very few characters in "The Wire" who were completely "good" or completely "evil" and even they would occasionally slip up and make mistakes or be controlled/corrupted by institutions that were more powerful than they were.

Although most of the writing team was white, The Wire was one of the few shows to depict a cast with fully realized black characters that were neither supermen nor comic relief but just people like anyone else: equally able to be heroic or corrupt. No Will Smiths or Martin Lawrences here...

It may have been mentioned in another thread or one of the reviews but The Wire is one of the closest things to a modern day Dickens novel that we can see. Even the small roles are well drawn, logically developed and well acted. The Wire had an attention to detail that gave it a verisimilitude that most other TV shows lacked.

Whether it's a vicious gangster underboss that also reads Milton Friedman and Adam Smith; a female cop who preaches integrity in everything she does but will join in to beat a teen suspect; or a high ranking cop who tries to do the impossible in keeping crime down with less resources, The Wire delights in showing all the hypocrisies and contradictions involved in being human.The writers were not afraid of putting characters through a lot of s*** or eliminating them if that's what the story required.

Highly recommended..

I'm with Lilo on this. I liked it as much as the Sopranos (although I never saw the final season). There's an interesting article in Playboy (last month, I think) where someone was very upset at the writing and how urban blacks were portrayed by white writers. It was an interesting article. I'll try and find the exact piece and post it.

I'd like to read that Playboy article; a Google search came up with nothing.

It's terrific in all the ways that inferior dramas fail. Real drama - all great serious art, actually - accounts for people by way of their socio-economic contexts. It's genuinely thrilling stuff. Season Four is the best thing I've ever seen. Ever.

I wrote this article last year for a friend's magazine.

SPOILERS WITHIN

The Wire: Straight and True
Michael Pattison, on why the critically acclaimed series might be the most relevant and pressing drama in recent years

David Simon’s television series The Wire may not have been an overnight commercial hit, but its critical acclaim has grown steadily. It originally aired on US cable channel HBO, and is now airing in the UK on BBC Two. More and more viewers are discovering the show. This can only be a good thing.

Formally, The Wire’s appeal may lie in its docudrama visual style, or in the seeming effortlessness with which Simon and his writers give their multi-stranded narrative an urgency and drive. But beyond this, the show has that most rare of attributes in contemporary drama – substance. It is politically motivated and artistically honest; it is interrogative and questioning.

The Wire is not about a tragic city, but about the tragic parts of a city. To wit: the drugs corners of West Baltimore, the seaport in the east of the city, its inner-city schools. As well as such geographical distinctions, it focuses also on the neglected individuals within these areas: the stevedores, the students, the addicts and the pushers.

Much of this is grounded in reality, from which the show gains an almost unprecedented authenticity. Series creator David Simon is a former reporter for The Baltimore Sun and author of two epic works of journalism, Homicide: A Year on the Killing Streets and The Corner: A Year in the Life of an Inner-City Neighborhood. The latter of these is co-authored by Ed Burns, a former Baltimore detective and inner-city school teacher who also works on The Wire. The show is incredibly well-researched.

Furthermore, the series’ cast is vast. There are more than 900 speaking parts over the course of 60 hour-long episodes, and the entire thing is shot on location. Many roles and scenarios are based on real-life Baltimore figures and events. In acknowledgment of some of these, real-life models are cast in both major and minor parts: Avon Barksdale (played in the show by Wood Harris) is based on “Little Melvin” Williams, who portrays the gentle church deacon in the show; Felicia “Snoop” Pearson, meanwhile, is an ex-convict and Baltimore native who plays an eponymous version of herself in the show. There are many other examples in similar vein.

Such nuances combine to comprise a fully developed and convincing whole. The Wire’s view of Baltimore is panoramic. The city becomes a living organism, fictionalised to life. Its attention to detail is unsurpassed. As a wake-up call, it is truly alarming. Indeed, crime statistics show that in recent years Baltimore’s murder rate has been six times the national rate; graffiti in one scene reads “Bodymore, Murderland”, a grim variation of Baltimore, Maryland. Other statistics show that over 20 per cent of the city’s population live under the poverty line, eight per cent higher than the national average.

But in the particular, we find the common. By concentrating on a specific social layer – be it topographical or institutional – and by placing this layer into a larger context, the series addresses issues more general and widely pressing: how the school system is failing the very students for whom it is in place; the slow, steady death of the working class as a result of budgetary conflicts and political corruption; the inadequacies and transparencies of the print media and other institutions, not least of all the police department itself.

All of these are symptoms of a greater malady: capitalism itself, in all its socially destructive nature. As Simon himself has noted, the show is about what happens when “raw, unencumbered capitalism” is allowed free rein. Indeed, Marxist viewers ought to embrace the show wholeheartedly. Others must surely wake up.

The Wire is angry. As a critique of the system it is damning; as an examination of what is happening at the bottom rungs of the social ladder, it is a convincing and devastating work of journalism. But the show is also humane. It has compassion for and an investment in its characters, who it exposits and explores by means of a fully developed social context. In this respect, it puts most other dramas to shame.

There are elements of Greek tragedy in the series, in how its characters seem at the mercy of things beyond them. But instead of internal conflicts of emotion, or acts of divine intervention, we have the very real institutions of a post-industrialised West, which chisel away at the people within and around them. As Simon has said, these are “people for whom the end is certain and the betrayals are certain.” Indeed, as one character says in the series, “You cannot lose if you do not play.” But not playing seems impossible, for, as another character laments, “The game is rigged.”

This embodies, perhaps, the show’s central paradox and its view of America as a whole. In its very opening scene, Detective Jimmy McNulty (Dominic West) observes the body of a young black male shot to death on the street, as he chats to one of the victim’s acquaintances. The youth, McNulty is told, was shot dead because he snatched money time and time again. Puzzled, McNulty asks why, if he repeatedly stole the money, he was allowed in the game. “Got to,” replies the friend. “This America, man.” This is the land of the free, and everyone is trapped.

Simon says he and his writers are not interested in notions of good and evil, that the show “is about sociology and economics.” And repeatedly, The Wire shows its characters are a product of socio-economic circumstance; as a result, nobody is beyond redemption.

Bill Rawls (John Doman), for example, is the callous Deputy Police Commissioner of the Baltimore Police Department. He may be a heartless careerist with seemingly little moral conscience, but his concern for his clearance rate is in response only to higher demands. As one stevedore puts it in Season Two, “Seniority sucks – unless you’re senior.”

The chain of command looms large in The Wire. Perhaps its strongest strength is the conflict between honest workerism – unloading a ship at the docks, writing sincere reportage, or simply being “good po-lees” – and dog-eat-dog careerism that results in juked stats, policy failures and institutions bled dry.

Thomas Carcetti (Aiden Gillen) rises from the position of Councilman at the beginning of Season Three to Mayor of Baltimore in Season Four. Nobody doubts Carcetti’s ambition, hope or his sincerity, but by Season Five and the show’s end, the writers have shown us once more that the system is bigger than the man – always.

What compromises Carcetti’s plans for reforming the city are fiscal issues and the need to ensure his own re-election. Between funding the police department and the inner city schools, one advisor’s solution is fitting: “Kids don’t vote.” Seniority does suck, but even for those who wish to reform, being senior may matter very little.

Likewise, on the opposite side of the law, drugs kingpin Stringer Bell (Idris Elba) wishes to transcend the rank and file of the streets on which he has grown up, and to turn legitimate in the city’s property development sector. At first, a la Michael Corleone in The Godfather Part III, what keeps pulling Bell back into the gangster world is the violence of the gangster world itself; in the end, though, the matter runs much deeper than that. As with Carcetti, Bell is at the mercy of the moneymen who seem to run the city and dictate who gets what and when.

Tellingly, a recurring story in the show sees Detective Lester Freamon (Clarke Peters) following the money trail, investigating where the city’s drugs money is invested further up the chain. Repeatedly, it is found in the hands, pockets and accounts of the city’s top brass. Freamon gets so far up the trail only to be reined in by his superiors. Clearly, money talks, and shit runs downhill.

In The Wire, individuals may be corrupt, but it is the system itself that has corrupted them. Some viewers – those Marxists previously urged to rally behind the show, for instance – might cry for a revolution, for a complete overhaul and restructuring of the system. But David Simon, alas, is a social democrat, not a socialist: The Wire works with what it has got.

But if Simon sees capitalism as the only feasible system in which wealth can be a real, attainable goal, his show calls for some sort of systematic framework to ensure those at the bottom of the economy are not neglected in the merciless way in which they currently are.

In Season Three, for instance, the series addresses the notion of turning the war on drugs from a question of crime into a question of health. The results show promise, and perhaps a sustainable way of dealing with a very complex social problem. But the idea is unable to be fully realised; treating the drugs war as a health issue means exposing it and facing it with more patience and care than if it were simply a crime issue.

As a result, it is easier and more convenient to return to the status quo. The system continues to fight a social health problem with a law enforcement strategy. In the opening episode, one line of dialogue is revealing: “You can’t call this a war on drugs... Wars end.” The problem is that crime itself is not a social constant; other factors weigh heavily. The Wire exposes this.

In Season Four the series concentrates on the school system. Three characters emerge as potential leaders to whom otherwise neglected youths can turn: Dennis “Cutty” Wise (Chad Coleman), a former drugs runner whose 14 years in prison has rendered him incompatible with more ferocious streets than before, establishes a boxing gym that takes the kids off the corners and puts to more productive use their energy and need for discipline; Ellis Carver (Seth Gilliam) is the detective whose rapport with and compassion for the corner kids provides the series with one of its most cutting and heartbreaking scenes, when his admirable efforts to secure the safety of one child, left behind by both the witness protection and adoption services, meet a devastating cul-de-sac; and ex-cop Bunny Colvin (Robert Wisdom), working as part of a social experiment within an inner city school, teaches hope and self-confidence to a student hitherto beyond despair.

In each of these cases, it is individual courage that stands out. As Simon says about Colvin in particular, “Ultimately what he does is to literally seize one kid and say, ‘I’m gonna take responsibility for you,’ in a world where nobody’s taking responsibility for anything. Not the school system, not the parents, not anybody.”

But these characters seem to be a dying breed. The system does not encourage them. If the kids themselves are being left behind by the schooling system, the would-be teachers, mentors and moral guardians have their work cut out too.

In the show’s fifth and final season, the writers turn their probing eyes to the Baltimore Sun and bring to light what they feel is a very real and sad situation: the decline of genuine journalism in favour of Pulitzer chasing. Gus Haynes (Clark Johnson) is the Sun’s experienced city editor, whose honesty and integrity are undercut by the false journalism of an underling and the dishonesty of his superiors.

In spite of all his efforts to expose one reporter’s outright forgery of events – which haven’t actually happened – Haynes is himself subdued because the resulting coverage gained by the newspaper sits too well with his bosses. Careerism wins again.

Under capitalism, not only is the working class dying a slow death, real work is becoming impossible. The fabricated truths told in the papers are in response to a serial killer manhunt, which has been concocted by Detective Jimmy McNulty. Outrageously immoral or not, McNulty’s adventure is a desperate masquerade with more dignified intentions: a serial killer, whether make-believe or not, gets the media’s attention, which in turn puts pressure on the Mayor and ultimately the police.

As a result, McNulty’s case acquires enough backing and funding so that fellow detective Freamon can hunt down young drugs lord Marlo Stanfield (Jamie Hector), a target previously deemed by the higher-ups too elusive and well equipped for the police department’s current budget and resources.

That real work – happening behind the scenes – is only possible through such fundamentally questionable methods, and dependent from the outset on hysterical fear-mongering from the media, is a telling and sad reflection of our times. A change is undoubtedly needed.

The Wire is growing in popularity. All seasons are available on DVD, there are several blogs dedicated to it, David Simon and cast members are becoming established names. The series is no longer an obscure drama tackling some niche issues – to be honest, it never was – but a very relevant exploration of the harmful, corrosive effects of capitalism at its most unbridled.

Even beyond all the hype, the series has to be seen to be appreciated, so rich are its thematic fabric and aesthetic approach. Grounded in realism and honesty, it lends itself to a wider, general depiction of not just America, but any urban environment in the civilised world.

Sweet article. Those are exactly my sentimonies.

I haven't seen the Playboy interview, Charlie, but I think you may be talking about Ishmael Reed's take on the show, along with its writers. He hated it.

This is from a rather lengthy interview done with Reed a year or so ago. He speaks about the show and the writers in great detail. His thoughts on "The Wire" are about halfway down the page. For the record, I LOVED the show, but I respect Reed. He's an absolutely prolific writer.

Ishmael Reed on "the Wire."

This is an interesting article (thanks for posting it). I've been watching Simon's new HBO series, Treme and I like it a lot (as much as The Wire) but I've also been taking shots at some of the politicalization in it. I'm wondering if it's the same guy in teh Playboy article (I really need to go find it) but it says the same thing so I'm guessing you nailed it.

In Treme, it's the opposite, I think; where all the blame lands on the Republican Party, George Bush, etc. .... and the racism is overplayed (I think). I went after it (Treme) a few times on my blog (including yesterday): http://temporaryknucksline.blogspot.com/2010/06/more-kind-words-marilyn-me-president.html

I'm wondering if Ishmael Reed has actually seen the show in its full context. His grudge for David Simon seems to go back to The Corner:

"He was going around the country with a Black kid from the Ghetto to promote something called The Corner – it was all about Blacks as degenerates selling drugs, etc."

That 'etc' is a bit telling in how vague and unfounded that criticism is, really. Simon's book The Corner is an epic work of journalism; it may very well be 'about Blacks selling drugs', but it's also - Reed does not note - about a particular part of a particular city that happens to be grossly neglected and left behind due to many issues into which he probes.

None of Reed's statements about The Wire ring true at all, actually. He seems very self-absorbed, and because of that seems to miss the whole point that The Wire portrays and explores many real social issues by grounding them in socio-economic terms, which are de facto questions of class. Any line of argument that deals with race alone - Reed's seems to - is going to fall into the same holes as the liberal feminists. Frankly, they all sound like they've got chips on their shoulders. You can't isolate race or gender or sexuality or anything else without viewing them as part of a whole - all of these are complex issues, and The Wire does well to give a coherent, honest voice to them in its 60 absorbing, engrossing episodes.

I did some searching and came across UnderCoverBlackman's blog. I largely agree with this: "With the racialist critique, a white boy can't win. If he ignores the stories of the black lower class, he's rendering the black poor 'invisible'... it's benign neglect.

"If, on the other hand, he devotes his talent, intellect and passion to humanizing the black poor, without sugar-coating it... then he's a white interloper, a race profiteer."

As per Reed's argument, Simon can't win. Coming back to some of Reed's arguments - which fall flat for anyone who has actually watched the show:

"Der Sturmer – see Julius Streicher Nazi Editor of the Notorious Anti-Semite Newspaper Der Sturmer by Randall l. Bytwerk. I was shocked. Jewish men were depicted as sexual predators, raping Aryan women. They were exhibited as flashers. Both Bellow and Phillip Roth’s books include Black flashers. Jewish men especially those immigrants from Russia were depicted as criminals. Jewish children were seen as disruptive, a threat to German school children and so on. If any one looks at this stuff for example, you’ll find a perfect match for the way that David Mamet, David Simon, George Pelecanos, Stephen Spielberg and Richard Price portray Blacks. They are very critical in their projects about the way Black men treat women, yet none of them has produced a project critical of the way that men of their background treat women."

Haha, I'm thinking immediately of Jay Landsman, Bill Rawls, Mayor Carcetti; three white characters who treat women pretty awfully. Then there's Cedric Daniels, a black character who couldn't be any more in contrast to those previous three.

This isn't just tokenistic placement of self-conscious accusation-evasion on Simon and his writers' parts. I'm not speaking about Spielberg here, but Simon and co. are not "very critical in their projects about the way Black men treat women". They're critical of the way women are treated within the current system - their approach is grounded in history. Their very careful to portray these people as fallible humans born into chance situations, trying to make sense of a world already fucked up when they came into it. I can't think of anything more heartbreaking in drama than the individual narratives given to Wallace in Season One, to D'Angelo in Season Two, to Randy in Season Four, to Dukie and Michael in Season Five; or anything as sharply observant and honest in the way the show traces Bubbles's drug addiction, or Cutty's post-prison rehabilitation, or Omar's struggle to survive in a world hostile to him on both sides of the law. None of these have the power they do without the broader look at a particular part of a particular post-industrial city whose institutions are failing due to the economic foundation in place: its police department, its working class, its drug addicts, its school children, its press.

I don't think it's flawless at all, but it's certainly the most pressing thing I've ever seen - including movies too - and Ishmael Reed's criticisms are hollow chasms of contradiction.

I don't know, Capo. I loved "The Wire" but I can see where Reed is coming from on some things. He's actually discussed class quite a bit. Check out "MultiAmerica" which he wrote and edited or also "Airing Dirty Laundry".

Reed was active in the arts and progressive movements in the fifties and sixties with Baraka and that entire crowd so he's quite familiar with all of the arguments about the intersectionalities of race, class, gender etc. I won't pretend to speak for him since he does that so well for himself but from a certain perspective class is subsumed by race. Or, more to the point, in some societies, race is virtually determinative of class. This was certainly the case for any black person that grew up, as Reed did, during segregation and before the changes in the sixties and seventies. Sometimes class isn't THE issue.

Check out some of his writings if you haven't already.
I don't imagine that you will agree with him much but he definitely has debated and discussed at length some of the issues you raise. As Reed states repeatedly his issue is not with white writers, it's with particular white writers and dramatic emphasis on black pathology. I think he's wrong on this particular series but the larger points remain.

As far as UndercoverBlackMan aka David Mills, I was fortunate enough to have some interactions with David Mills before he passed. He was an interesting fellow to say the least. But as you know he was a writer for Homicide, The Wire and NYPD Blue so one must keep in mind that his defense of some things could be overlaid with self-interest. He actually got his gig writing for NYPD Blue when he challenged David Milch's assertion that black writers were locked into certain racialized perspectives while white writers were not and thus Milch didn't expect to hire any black writers. Ultimately THAT is the sort of thinking that both Reed and Mills detested and fought against, albeit in different ways.

Yeah, I haven't read any of Reed's work at all, which was why I'm criticising solely on his criticisms of The Wire, which don't ring true at all for me.

Hm, I'd argue it is, but whatever. A race issue or a gender issue is 'in general' going to be a de facto class issue.

That's not to say I don't disagree that in some societies at certain points in history - even at present - 'race is virtually determinative of class'.

It was, in fact, Ishmael Reed and it's the May issue of Playboy ... good call!

I get lucky sometimes .

Thanks Lilo!
I bought the box set, I really enjoyed it, zipped through it quick!
Will be watching again.
I liked it but not as much as Th Sopranos, but I might be biased..
You guys think it was better than The Sopranos?

I liked both The Wire and The Sopranos immensely. For me it would be like choosing between Coltrane and Hendrix.
Still I probably would give The Wire a slight nod because of writing.

I think I'm going to have to watch through it again...
I'll take the blinders off this time (a bit more anyway)

Both series do things the other cannot. Because of its necessary scope, The Wire never gives us the extensive point-of-view that The Sopranos does; but then, The Sopranos doesn't have the scope to deal with socio-economic concerns on the same level as The Wire.

Also, The Wire is grounded in social realism; The Sopranos often does away with it and we get surreal dream sequences as important narrative threads.

If The Wire is Dickensian, The Sopranos is Shakespearean. As such, they're pretty incomparable, and both excellent.

I've just started Season 3. I like it. This season has been the first where I wasn't lost for the first 4 episodes.

ALL SPAM REMOVED

The wire is one of the best crime show ever made...

Well The Wire was a Classic. Season 1 was best season of it

David Simon and Baltimore Police Commissioner Frederick Bealefeld III exchange unpleasantries.

Simon responds

Never seen the show. Do they allow curse words in it?

Yeah, plenty.

I'm downloading as we speak!

I love the scene in season 1 where all they say is "fuck" back and forth.

amazing show!!!

I don't have HBO and my cousin was telling me for YEARS about the show. I never like to feel as though I'm caught up in the "hype" about something.

Didn't watch it until there was discs of all the seasons at my local library...each weekend I took them out..and of course, was blown away.

I applaud the writers for not watering down the dialogue slang for mainstream audience. In fact, almost on cue...the "critics" seemed to take offense to not having things tailored to them. I read a NY times article/review of the show and the writer ACTUALLY wrote something to the effect of..." the street dialogue is self consciously accurate".f the critics.

maybe they'd be more comfortable if the characters were talking "blaxploitation jive" or what-not.

yeah i waited till all the seasons were out and on sale then bought all of them and it was a great time, i was sad it ended just as when the sopranos did

Great show.

an unintentional effect of the Wire was that it ended the "crime hood movie" genre.

After Boyz N the Hood and then again recently in direct to dvd format, there were tons of "urban""crime" films made with widely varying degrees of skill.

Neo blaxploitation, really.


The Wire raised the bar so high, that NOBODY can stomach crude poorly produced one note films which cover the urban streets.


In fact, many have re-examined some of the well produced Black "crime" films of the past and many now come up short

Just got done with the first episode. Looks promising. A lot of F bombs being dropped, MF bombs, but everything done with class. I like it.

Having seen the entire run, I really cannot easily decide if The Sopranos was better or not -- that's how good The Wire is!

This from someone who thinks New Jersey pizza is the best in the world.

I will say this..after having seen the first episode. The first episode is shit compared to any of The Sopranos shows. That's how good The Sopranos was.

Never said best in the WORLD! Just best outside of Naples



Needless to say, you can't judge an entire series on the pilot episode!

I've had this argument with more than a few people. The Wire was a great series. I watched it when it on HBO and then rented the series again on DVD.

The difference is, I own The Sopranos, which was the greatest TV drama of all time.

The Wire can't be judged until you've seen about 5-6 episodes.

The Wire might be the best TV show ever, but it is not my favorite. The Shield is, Arrested Development is up there, and of course Sopranos, but The Wire might be in my top 5.

"The Wire" actress busted in drug ring.

More than 30 people, including the actress known as "Snoop" from the Baltimore-based HBO series "The Wire," were arrested Thursday morning across the city and its surrounding counties in connection with a large-scale heroin and marijuana operation.

Raids were carried out in the pre-dawn hours by agents from the Drug Enforcement Administration, Baltimore police and a slew of other federal and state law enforcement agencies.

Felicia "Snoop" Pearson, known for her drug-assassin character on "The Wire," was taken into custody at a downtown apartment on a state warrant, officials said.


The actress has a troubled past, having been convicted at age 14 of second-degree murder. More recently, she refused to testify as a witness at a murder trial and was arrested at her then-Northeast Baltimore home.

The arrests are part of a five-month drug investigation, officials said.

K. Ive got a confession. When I made this thread, I was a "tourist" to "The Wire". I had watched burnt copies of about 60% of each season up to the fifth. Now Im re-watching it with a vengeance & realising that I was fucking wrong.
"THE WIRE" SHITS ALL OVER "THE SOPRANO'S", THAT IS, "THE SOPRANO'S", BEST FUCKIN' TELEVISION SHOW IN HE HISTORY OF FUCKING TELEVISION. "THE WIRE" IS BETTER THEN THE BEST TELEVISION SHOW IN HISTORY.
Ahem.
Really, though, Ive been rewatching the series in HighDef from the start, & a little way into the Second Series Im dumbfounded over what I was missing. I cant believe I didnt realise it before. "The Wire" is, in fact, so much, much deeper then "Soprano's" or "Oz" or whatever-the-fuck. So much more sprawling, so much more all encompassing.
Lets face it, "Soprano's" is classic. For me, at least, it redefined good t.v. What could be done with the medium. "Oz" showed me one could still push the envelope, Tony Soprano & his crew showed me how far you could take it into that id realm of WWYD? (Y for YOU mofo's!)

For example, I refer you to the murder of young 'jects kid Wallace in Series the First, the "testimony" of gay stick up man Omar Little in Series the Second & the continuing saga of Bubbles [Reginald?], the most convincing depiction of the drug struggle Ive yet to witness. Andre Royo's turn in this series is just phenomenal. This casting is amongst the most inspired & effective to be put together.

Anthony Soprano, in his most tortured, existentialist angst-ridden states; his "me, me, me"-ism's...he's compelling in his position, a juxtaposition between the Old World & the New, a reflection of the darker sides of ourselves, but through the eyes of this one guy, some asshole out for himself (like us all, really), a virulent racist, a crooked, violent, mean asshole, a guy we realise way too late that we shouldn't really be rooting for, until the night his ass gets splattered in a diner in front of his wife & kids; then we realise how far & much Tony's sneering, shrugging & fucking got him.
The Wire trancends Tony Soprano and his bull shit. Its got infinitely more to say on us all.

Anyway, I got's to lay up on the italic. I aint no 'jects brother up in here. Y'feel me babby?
Ahem. Excuse me.

Jeez Mickey, tell us how you really feel! LOL

I own The Wire box set as well as The Sopranos. I love both of them
equally. I think they are both great series, just different.
Kind of like your kids I guess. Haha
A friend of mine is the DA here and he loves The Wire as well.
He says it's the truest depiction of how local politics work, especially
the season where Carcetti runs for mayor and all the bullshit you
have to put up with

And honestly, who wouldn't want to be McNulty? Or as Bubbles calls
him, "McNutty" That guy gets more ass than a toilet seat. I love the
scene where he's banging that chic on the hood of the car outside
the bar and a patrol car pulls up and flashes him with the lights
McNulty reaches down to his pants and pulls out his badge.
The cops leave and he starts back slamming that babe!
Fricking hilarious! He's da Man! LOL

Snoop pleads out...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/marylan...0,4750766.story

She looks ridiculous in the video. Was she taking the piss or is that how she actually dresses for court? She looks like Brother Mouzzone.

Please.

You're not the first guy to suddenly announce, "You know what, The Wire is even better than The Sopranos!" But more often than not, after the novelty wears off, they come to their senses and recant that blasphemy.

Don't get me wrong, The Wire is a great show. But better than The Sopranos? That's like saying Menace II Society is better than Goodfellas.

Sometimes though a lot of us guys on here, our judgement is clouded because we are all interested in the Mafia. I agree that the wire is a far more sprawling, and deeper show compared to the Sopranos, but personally I prefer the Sopranos.

A guy who I was debating the two shows with over on the Real Deal years ago accused me of this very thing - Mafia bias. But what made The Sopranos so good (and popular with many besides us OC buffs) went far beyond the typical mob stuff. The Sopranos really put HBO on the map in a lot of ways. Without the success of The Sopranos, shows like The Wire may never have even happened.

yeah Sopranos did do a lot for Drama series, I think the show "Oz" preceded both and broke a lot of barriers, the show wasn't as good as the other two but still a good show.

*Ahem* Please

You're also not the first guy to say what you just said. Sure they went far beyond the usual mob stuff, but as much as we want to say that Soprano's was an allegory for suburbun life and the "end of the American Dream" (WhateverTF that means) take the mob out of Soprano's and you got some chubby asshole from NJ. Tony's a complete and utter dick. Compelling in many ways but still a dick.

The Wire transcends. The Wire is The City. How do you take away the City from the background?

Dont get me wrong. I LOVE The Soprano's. Ive never watched so many hours of tv in a row.
I do agree that without one the other might not have come to fruition. Who woulda thunk Soprano's would be so awesome? Things like Oz and Deadwood paved the way for it, and it led to the standard of programming today (SoA, Breaking Bad, Brotherhood, Rome, SixFeetUnder etc.. I know not all of these are HBO productionz, my point is that a bar was raised post Soprano's. And thats pretty cool.

Yes, Oz came before The Sopranos but it was only a cult favorite. The Sopranos was a national phenomenon widely regarded as the best TV drama ever.

Here's the difference...

I watched The Wire when it was on TV and then rented it again on DVD.

But I own The Sopranos.

The Wire is only Baltimore. And you can't compare Baltimore with New Jersey or even New York. They just said in the last episode I watched that Baltimore is 65% black. New York is 10 times bigger and a lot more diversed. Different mentality on the streets.

I've recently started to watch the Wire because everyone says it's a great serie. And it is a good serie. But it's also slow paced, especially the first season. It's not near as good as The Sopranos, but I'm only in the third season and I've read that the fourth season is the best..

It's sort of like arguing over who is the most beautiful woman in the world.
Once you get past a certain point it's all subjective.
I give a slight nod to The Wire especially for the writing but that's just me. The Wire also showed blacks in dramatic roles which was (is) incredibly rare on TV or in movies. I appreciated that.

I enjoyed The Sopranos immensely but if I had to choose I'm picking The Wire.

[quote=Lilo]It's sort of like arguing over who is the most beautiful woman in the world.
[quote]

Great analogy Lilo. They are both such great works it can be very much subjective. And hasn't The Wire won recognition for its predominantly African American cast? Especially being so multi dimensional.

But for the one guy in Siberia who hasn't heard me yet...I also have to choose The Wire.

When is the next great HBO crime drama coming out!!! Im getting withdrawal symptoms!

Check Boardwalk Empire. They already broadcasted the first season and the second one is in the making.

Yeah I will do man, though I heard it doesn't quite match up to the sopranos and the Wire?

It's difficult to compare one season of Boardwalk Empire to six seasons of the Sopranos. One season is better than the other. But Boardwalk Empire is definitely one of the best series I've seen. I like it more than the Wire, but the Sopranos is still the king.

well that would be hard to beat! Do you have any idea how many seasons they have planned for it?

That all depends on the viewer ratings. Remember, even a serie is all about making money.

I kept losing eBay auctions for the wire when the price went over what I wanted, I think it was the $35-40 range. And then I snagged it for $17 including shipping. And it's a real box set with all 5 seasons and it was brand spankin' new and all the discs work perfectly.

The Wire is a great achievement that I haven't seen matched again. They created a world with such solid characters and settings (used as characters) that things like Hamsterdam or Season 5 don't seem nearly as outrageous as they would in other shows.

I think it ages better than the Sopranos. I think it does more as a show than the Sopranos. It takes some time to adjust to the style but that time is well spent.

I think that The Sopranos final season might be weighing too much on the entire series in my head. The final season was rushed and frankly, garbage, when compared the the first 5. I think The Sopranos would have benefited from combining season 6 and 7 (fuck this a and b shit, it's 2 seasons, so it's 6 and 7) into 1 13 episode season.

Cut most of the Vito shit, keep Bobby's development, If I had the access to the video and the software I'd try it myself, it'd be a lot of work and it might suck but it'd be neat to see the results. I've always wondered what it'd be like to cut each season down to a movie length just as a cool personal project.

I think another factor in how I view The Sopranos ending is the fact that The Shield went 7 seasons and the final 3 might be the best 3, where the last 2 with The Sopranos are not the quality I'd expected from the show.

The Wire is a better show than The Sopranos. The Wire is the Best Show. Period. But that doesn't mean it's my favorite. We can all agree that Michael Jordan was the best NBA player ever and he was great to watch, but that doesn't automatically make him your favorite player.

The Wire is the Michael Jordan of TV. Yeah, that fits. The Sopranos might be Shaq.

I'd use a different comparison. One can argue that The Wire didn't dip off towards the end like The Sopranos did. The same can be said for Everybody Loves Raymond, which didn't dip towards the end, like Seinfeld did. But, overall, Seinfeld was even funnier than Raymond, just like Sopranos, overall, was better than The Wire.

Completely agree. Don't need to add anything.

Still, I favore the Sopranos above the Wire. But I'm now halfway season 4 and the show is getting better and better. The first season was pretty boring and I needed to to get used to the show's style.

The things, I'm not sure if the Sopranos is actually better, technically speaking. But I'm more intrigued in the world of the Sopranos than that of the Wire which explains why I favor the Sopranos.

Thats just it Sonny. I know exactly how you feel.

I came into The Wire with Soprano's firmly entrenched in my opinion as the best t.v ever. I enjoyed The Wire, but it wasn't untill Id really gotten into it that I started to realise it was usurping the position Soprano's once held in my head.

I mean, its just brilliant. I really enjoyed the last season of Soprano's (6B, whatever. Its the seventh season), it was kinda like, it's been a long journey, things are different from years ago, but still essentially the same grind. Even though it did kinda lose momentum. None of that in The Wire.

I wanted nto mention too one scene in particular. When Omar wakes up one morning to find his boyfriend has eaten all the Honey Nut cereal, who puts on his silk bathrobe and walks down to the shop to pick some up. As he's walking, the hoppers all start their calling; "Omar comin'!"

As the streets clear as he walks through them, he pauses to light a cigarette, and leans against a building. The dealers inside, assuming he's come to rip and run, throw down their cash and drugs through the window. He shrugs, pick's them up and walks home.

Scene's such as this one contibuted to making the show so damn dynamic. It fucked around with the stereotypical, one-dimensional portrayal of criminals and so called thugs, and called gender constraints into question. I mean, the openly gay Omar, far from being the simpering type often characterized, is one of the most feared and dangerous people on the show. And there's a reason that Stephen King descibed Snoop Pearson as "perhaps the most terrifying female villian to ever appear on television".

I had a feeling Omar was going to get clipped during that scene.

Btw, I didn't even notice that they threw the package outside out of fear. I thought it was just a routine delivery or something. You really need to stay focussed while watching as this serie has a lot of detail. I can say this: it's less entertaining than the Sopranos, but it's a more intelligent serie.

Don't be surprised if you find yourself changing your opinion again after the novelty of The Wire wears off. Like I said, this has happened to more than a few guys.

I don't think there's much novelty to The Wire. And that's kind of the point.

It's not a show like The Shield or The Sopranos that is purely entertaining. The Wire is compelling.

Dollars to donuts The Sopranos will stand the test of time better than The Wire will.

I must admit, I quite like your "dollars to donuts" analogy. But I must also admit I believe the opposite is true: The Wire will stand the test of time better.

Agreed.

Weighing into this debate, (not wanting to be confrontational) one thing which really struck me about the Wire was how emotional and poignant some scenes and story lines were. The characters of Wallace and Dukie particularly really upset me, the paths they took and how it ended for them. With Sopranos the only time I felt sadness or emotional was when Ralphie killed that stripper. Personally I did find the Sopranos more entertaining though.

Last night I've finished the serie.

The first season is slow paced and at times boring. But since many stated it's a great serie I gave it the benefit of the doubt and continued to the next season. I guess I needed to get used to its style. The second season is interesting, decent and definitely an improvement. The third season pretty much continues this line. But the fourth and fifth season are great. The story writing is ingenious because of the way it unfolded. Everything seems to fit up until the end. So it wasn't until the fourth season that I finally recognised the series' greatness. I think David Simon is a terrific writer. If only he would do a bigger project than Baltimore he has the potential to blow away the Sopranos, which for me still maintains the number one spot mainly because it's superiour entertainment.

Some things did disappoint me though. For example Omar's death; I was expecting him to die in a hail of bullets while blasting away Chris or Snoop. But since that probably would have been too much of a cliché they decided to do a "Hey! We suprise you!". Whatever. Still prefer a "say hello to my little friend" epic death in a hail of bullets. Especially for a character such as Omar. It was also pretty lame that Daniels didn't end up staying the Police Commissioner.

But you know when a serie is good if you're left with a sad feeling when it's ended. This serie depicts every aspect of Baltimore society like the Police Department, street hustlers, drug dealers, drug addicts, homeless people, union guys, journalists, politicians and everyday citizens. I've never been to Baltimore but I would dare to say that I'm now a Baltimore expert thanks to this serie. It's really educational and I would recommend this serie to every student who's interested in the subject.

And last but not least, this serie also provides a lot of great quotes & oneliners, the best of them probably being: "better to be lucky, than to be good". Truly inspirational.

The thing is, Omar did get that death. On the streets the kids were talking about how it took a bunch of guys with AKs to kill him or something so while he didn't get it for us, he got it on the streets. And that's the only place where Omar matters at all, as shown with the toe tag scene.

I guess the jump that Omar did off the balcony happened in real life, but 3 stories higher but they made it like the 3rd floor so people would believe it.

David Simon wrote a few books, The Corner I think deals with a lot of characters who ended up being on the show in different forms.

Homicide is another book, and TV show of his, but it was on network tv so it's working by Law and Order type of realities and restrictions.

The point of Omar's death scene is that its more real that way, in reality there is no Scarface ending, often on the streets they wouldn't even see it coming. The creators have tried to make it as real as possible, sure its not 100% depiction but its probably the most real drama series out there. Baltimore often clocks 250+ homicides a year so the violence is real...

I know exactly what you mean Sonny. I thought the earlier series were great, but by the time I got to the fourth and fifth again through serious viewing that I truly recognised "The Wire" for its genius.

I hear you Sonny, but have to disagree. I thought it was that much more poignant having big bad (and totally gay) Omar taken out by a nervous child.

Oh yeah. Well put.

Guys i plan to buy Brotherhood series, its pretty cheap here. I think i will like it because of the mob elements in it. I also want to watch the Wire since everyone says its cool, but it has to have something that will attract me like mafia elements, mainly italian or irish. Does the show the Wire have those kind of things? Or is it just african american gangs fighting for drugs and police monitoring and wiring them?

The Wire deals with the latter - the drug trade in the Black ghetto in Baltimore and the police going after them. The show also branches out into other elements of the city, like the dying business on the waterfront, politics, and the local press. It's definitely worth watching. But, besides no Mafia element, it also doesn't have that genius combination of drama and comedy that made The Sopranos so great.

Thanks for the fast reply Ivy! I think i will just stick with the Sopranos, aint nothing gonna beat that
I just started to watch the Brotherhood.

Couldn't disagree more. But to each their own. It's just differing opinions and that's fine.
The Wire doesn't have the traditional organized Italian-American connection depicted because in Baltimore (or at least in the fictional world of Baltimore that Simon chose to depict) the functions of LCN are either already subsumed by the Baltimore crime groups or mostly irrelevant to the people shown.

I think there's plenty of comedy in The Wire whether it's McNulty's constant refrain of "What did I do" , Bunk and McNulty's one word obscene conversation as they work a crime scene, Kima's irritating but well deserved sense of superiority towards Carver and especially Herc, Herc's confidence and dimwittedness, Rawls' vituperative homophobic rants despite being seen relaxing in a gay bar, Stringer Bell trying to enforce Robert's Rules of order and losing his temper, etc.

I enjoy both The Sopranos and The Wire. But if I can only choose one, I'm choosing The Wire.

Great points eloquently put. Thems my exact sentimonies, Lilo.

And another great comedic moment...the lawyer representing Omar in Series Two insisting he wear a tie to court. He does...but draped over his hoody. In fact, alot of the funniest parts in the series involve Omar IMO. And Bubs.

Just for the record, the absence of the LCN in the show didn't bother me. It's not a prerequisite for me to be interested. I was responding to Mukremin's question about that.



McNulty definitely had his moments. But it was a different kind of humor than that of The Sopranos.

Although it doesn't have any Irish or Italian criminals, it does briefly feature Polish street criminals in the second season. The Wire also portrays a variety of elements similar to LCN. Union and political corruption, front businesses, money laundering, surveillance evasion, dubious lawyers, competing criminal organizations, etc. A cartel group gets formed in the third season. And then there's also watching how the police methodically develop their cases against these groups. I thought the five season kinda sucked but whatever.

I don't think you can really compare The Wire with The Sopranos. They're entirely different shows with different, I guess, goals in mind. The Wire is about the drug war and its toll on American inner cities. There are lots of great characters but none of them get explored too deeply like Tony Soprano. Which is fine because they're just cogs in the system. To focus on any one of them would miss the point of the show. You could probably compare Brotherhood with The Sopranos a little, though, because of the family elements. Brotherhood was definitely a worthwhile watch. However, it's not a repeat watch for me. I've watched both the Sopranos and The Wire several times but I don't think I'll watch Brotherhood again.

So, you should definitely give The Wire a shot at some point. It gives a pretty in-depth look at the drug trade.

This is pretty cool too:

http://www.freakonomics.com/2008/01/09/what-do-real-thugs-think-of-the-wire/

See I dont know Mooney. I agree with the majority of your points, but I dont know if its right to call Frank Sobotka, his nephew, Horseface Pakusa and the other coupla guys "street". They're sorta the "enterprise" syndicate, operations revolving around just the one industry they're plugged into. Nonwithstanding Ziggy's schemes and the shit he pulls Nicky into, Frank was symbolic of the old way of doing things, those old Dock-Worker Unions that have seedy connotations world-wide.

Damn, a double-post. I suck

I also meant to say that IMOwnHO, Blake Masters hit a home-run in mocking up his own approximation of the RI OC underworld. After watching a few times round, I can see how he and other writers fleshed out the "world" according to the brothers Caffey, with backstory, local mob history and everything.

Its one of those shows, you can watch an episode two or three times...and still pick up some obscure comment made by some random character that leads into or relates to some other plotline or character. There's a rich and cohesive history goin' on there. Not like the average commercial network crime-drama where by the end of every episode everything makes sense and falls into place, ready for the next episode.

And for the record...I think its a bit harsh to say the fifth season outright sucked Cmon man. Even shitty episodes of The Wire are better than most episodes of whatever.

I am done with first season of Brotherhood, cant get enough of these tv series. A thing in me urges me to start watching the Wire to after Brotherhood.

Definitely watch the wire Mukremin its an unbelievable show.

I will do that Nicky i have read more on the internet and it looks interesting. The corruption, drug dealing, and of course it shows the streets of today right? I found the series here cheap, i will buy the first 2 seasons. I already own Sopranos, i also got the Brotherhood ordered.
Is there more like these series? Sopranos, The Wire, Brotherhood, Oz, and of course Boardwalk Empire. I cant seem to remember more.

Yeah man I am always searching for more great drama series. The sopranos, The wire, Oz, brotherhood, also Boardwalk Empire. Hopefully there will be another great series soon!
yeah I would say the wire is good because it does reflect the drug trade and violence in Baltimore, its very realistic and violent. I would put it a very close second to The sopranos, but a lot of people have the wire as better. You may find the first couple of episodes of the wire slow but stick with it and you will find it amazing!

Exactly, they should make more of them. I dont mind if its not so active at the start, gives you a better start to understand the characters and what the series is all about.

I am not sure whether to buy the alle in one pack or per season. In the long term i do pay more if i go for seperate seasons, but if i go for the deluxe pack i loose like 70 euros one time.

I would look at it as an investment to buy the box set

You are right, i aint got the money right now. At least not for the box, but i will at the end of the month. The thing is, i got this disease that if i like something i want it right away
Got no patience with these kind of stuff. Shame on me

I meant people like White Mike, Nicky, and the guy Nicky made fun of that one time as far as white street guys went. Not a huge presence but they're there.

Although Brotherhood was cut off early, I thought it had a pretty good ending.

Haha, true, a bad episode of the Wire is worth many other episodes of any other show. I couldn't help but cringe during the newspaper scenes, though. It was so apparent that David Simon had an axe to grind. It felt shoehorned in. I can't really think of what could have replaced it though. I guess they could have cut out the Templeton character. Just focus on the decline of newspapers and the effects of that.

Breaking Bad could be another show you would be interested in. Throughout the series you watch Walter White and Jesse Pinkman rise through the various levels of the drug trafficking underworld. It's no where near as in depth as The Wire in terms of breaking it down in an almost textbook manner. But it's interesting to see how their relationships and problems, personal and criminal, change as they rise. It feature money laundering, various criminal organizations, a lot of seedy characters.

There's also Sons of Anarchy. It's about a motorcycle gang in Northern California. There are other motorcycle gangs, street gangs. The San Jose mafia family makes an appearance (which I've heard is the most powerful and elusive LCN family in the country due to their impressive ability to avoid federal indictments for decades). A dissident IRA group figures pretty heavily into the story. The gang traffics guns for the most part. They also receive protection money. It's partially based on Hamlet.

im watching the wire now. im almost done with the second season! its great! i was a big fan of "the corner" it centered around the life a inner city drug addicted family in bmore. it was by the same guys. its odd seeing people that played these drug addicts in the corner as police in the wire.!

I bougth the Wire, all seasons in one for 40 euros.

I hope you enjoy it Mukrenim. Give it some time as you may need to adjust to it if you're used to the Sopranos.

Its been a while since i watched the Sopranos, nowadays i am still busy with Brotherhood. I will keep the Wire rested for a week or 2

Prop Joe in season 3: "I'm proud of y'all for putting aside petty grievances and putting this thing together. For a cold-ass crew of gangsters y'all carried it like Republicans and shit."
This conference reminds me a lot of the meeting of the gangster families in "The Godfather".
Only this time, it's "the dark people" who make the deal. And the joke is not on the Communists but on the Republicans.

have u started on the wire yet Mukremin? Let us know what you think when you have watched it!

Hi Nicky, no i have not started yet. I am almost done with Brotherhood, and i am moving to a new apartment. So i bought a new tv and cinema set, i want to start watching it in my new home with full backing of my new tv and cinema set

Ha sounds like u have got a good setup to watch it on! I am envious of you because you have a brilliant series to look forward to!

Haha i know the feeling, i am having a hard time forcing myself not to watch it yet. So far i have only read reviews on the internet, i have not watched a single second of the series

Thats frickin' awesome. Even with the exchange rate.

I spent around 75 euro's buying the series. Ripped off!

BTW, you know what I just realised? The guy that plays Bubbles friend Johnny Weeks in The Wire is none other then the guy that played the horny "Virgins, I love 'em" HIV carrying douchbag teen Tully from "Kids", Leo Fitzpatrick. I also caught him a while back as a prospect in SoA. I like his work; he's an actor that can really polarise you in regards to his character.

Lol, I noticed this after seeing him in a couple of episodes.

I was disappointed with his turn in SoA. Well, not the actor but the character he played. I wish we got to see more of him.

I kinda know what you mean, although I though his role as a prospect that just couldn't handle the inherent violence was alright.

A few guys have talked about "The Corner", I mean to sit down and watch it before long. Also, I recently came across a companion book to The Wire by I think was co-authored by Simon. It basically offers a sypnosis of all the episodes and details relevant info and events pertaining.

On another note, film critic site Metacritic holds the fourth series at 98%, the highest score given to any televison series since they began rating them.

Yeah, I can agree with that. I can't really see Johnny rolling with SoA. I guess I don't like how they never really went into any of their backgrounds. Like, I felt they did a better portrayal of prospects through Half Sack. Season 2 spoiler below...




It's unfortunate the actor who played HS didn't like the show and asked to leave.

I started to watch "Homicide", David Simon's first cop show. It's ok. I prefer the Wire, obviously.

Well i watched the first episode, i must say it didnt get my full attention. I liked the intro of Sopranos and Brotherhood, but the Wire did not. Like you guys said, it will get interested after a couple of episodes.

As the story continues, i am starting to get more and more interested. First season is almost complete, one minor issue is that there are to many leading characters. Hard to remember all of them.

Yeah, that's one of the complaints about The Wire. It gets more complicated as time goes by. But people drop in and out so it doesn't get to be too much. I think they managed it pretty well up until the fifth season.

Keep at it. They'll all become familiar soon enough. At least all the ones which are important.

Totally. Stick with it Muk, it's not until the later seasons that it really picks up and establishes it's greatness.

To paraphrase a guy (I think it was Capo_De_La_Cosa_Nostra? Ill have to double check) on these boards, "Season 4 is the best thing Ive watched. Ever."

EDIT: Yep, it was Capo. Dont seem to see a lot of that guy any more. Shame, he made some great posts. Guy really knew his films.

|You guys are right!! its getting more interested at this point, i am almost done with S1. I was shocked when she was shot while undercover, the most saddest thing in the whole series so far for me.

I am done with Season1, omg this is cool. It felt so good to see Omar back in action, i like him. Hes my favourite character. (other then the leading ones). Can you guys tell me if he will play a major role? His style is so cool, one man army with his shotgun. Dont spoil to much of the story please.

I won't give anything away Mukremin but yes you will see a lot more of Omar!

Thats great! In my eyes, hes a legend. Like the Last Mohican, or Last man standing. What do you think of him Nicky?

Omar was fucking awesome. My favourite character in the Wire.

Just my two cents.

Omar is great, sure, but I also find myself strangely fond of Stringer Bell.

Yeah he's a great character and he's acted very well. I think he's character gets bigger as the series develops, personally my favourite is Bodie a real street guy.

just finished up the wire. the last season is disapointing. i enjoyed it but its not something i will keep watching.

I liked Stringer BEll to, until he fucked with Dee's wife. He cant be trusted, and since he ordered the killing to without Barksdales OK.

Stringer Bell is a fox.

And Stringer is English! So too McCnulty great acting!

English actors? Not American?
Yeah, a fox. Hes all business.

i enjoyed omar. i was really dissapointed as to how he died. such a shitty way. they should have gave brodie's death scene to omar. the way brodie went down was bad ass!

True that. I agree that the 5th season was pretty weak compared to the one's leading up to it, but it capped of the series well enough IMO. A shitty season of The Wire is still better then 90% of the commercial crap that gets greenlighted.

Yeah both English, and the guy who played MCcnulty is very posh in real life, he went to the most expensive school in the country and is friends with the Prime Minister David Cameron, so its impressive he came across as authentic!

I am watching the last episode of season 3 as we speak, some real shit happened this season. Cant wait to watch season 4 and 5. I get this feeling, knowing the Wire will be complete within days
No other series can match Sopranos, Brotherhood and The Wire.

Boardwalk Empire and Game of Thrones are comming really close. I mean, REALLY close.

what does everybody think about sons of anarchy?

i would honestly say thats one of my fav shows on tv now the current season is amazing, check it out

that along with boardwalk empire, and blue bloods are what im currently watching/streaming

Mukremin, after the wire watch "Oz" personally I rate that third after the wire and sopranos, and it has Mafia elements that I know you love! Ask Mickey about it if you need a second opinion.

Nicky, I seconded that. Although, I probably rate Oz higher, since it does not have a weak season unlike the Sopranos. It paved the way for some of the great HBO shows like the Sopranos, the Wire, Deadwood, Boardwalk Empire, Game of Thrones, Rome, etc.

Sorry, not a big fan even though I watched every episodes so far. What can I say, I am fascinated with the inner workings of a one percenter club and their lifestyle.

First few episodes were awesome, then it got too unrealistic and predictable for my liking. The script and the plot really let down a great premise and concept.

Glad to see you are enjoying The Wire, Mukremin. It's not Mafia but it's a great show nonetheless.

The thing is, Oz had sort of a cult-following. The Wire was a little more popular. Neither had the impact that The Sopranos did.

The Wire will never be as popular as the Sopranos. Both are the very top of the cream of outstanding television series, but unfortunately mainstream Americans do not like watching a show that is 90% black. Sad but true. Plus, Americans are obsessed with the mob. You put on a half decent show about wiseguys and it would be a hit. Don't get me wrong, I love the Sopranos and I am not trying to shit on it.

Face it, mainstream Americans do not want to watch television shows that are too realistic. That is why Prison Break will always get more ratings than excellent drama series like Oz.

Yeah Sopranos was more mainstream than the wire and oz (this is not a criticism). Oz was very brutal, no way would that appeal to a mass audience. The wire, your right the black aspect did play a part I heard, It is insulting that it never won an emmy. (however in my opinion that's a positive given the shows that often win.)

The Wire is just excellent, however, i must say that i am watching episode 4 of season 4. And this is so far the most boring season, even season 1 was better.

And all, thanks for the comments. I will check Oz out when i am done with The Wire. Boardwalk empire is a show i am watching, but not a strong follower because of some stuff in it which we discussed in another topic

Hey Nicky, I guess you are not a big fan of Mad Men?

I think its good too, however i always prefer drama series about crime.

Another show I would VERY HIGHLY recommend is Breaking Bad. I actually only got into about a month ago but am already on Season 4. I like to watch a TV series at my own pace rather than that week-to-week nonsense.

Yeah I agree Ivy no way I could of watched the sopranos 1 ep a week! I have heard a lot about breaking bad I will get the dvds. What does everybody think of Friday Night lights? I'm absolutely loving it, I knew nothing about American Football but the show has got me interested in the game!

Breaking Bad is a great show. And fuck being a slave to network programming. It's what internet streaming and Tivo was made for.

Which season of Sopranos is supposed to be the weak one? I have been watching it for the first time during the last month and much as I adored the first 2 seasons, I find myself reluctant to continue after season 4, which was, IMHO, rather boring and rife with ridiculously unbelievable stuff as well as repetition of the same old. Is it the bad season or is there worse still to come?



All of my favorite stuff, except for Deadwood, which I have yet to see!
I would also suggest "The Shield", which is complete and went out with a real bang. It is about corrupt cops and is less realistic than "The Wire", but it is, IMHO, great. The protagonist certainly deserves a place of honor among the fictional criminal masterminds .

Re: season 4 of the Wire, IMHO it starts out slowly but has a really strong second half/ending.

Well a lot of people feel the final eps of sopranos was rather rushed and far-fetched. Personally I thought season 5 was the weakest season.

I almost forgot the Shield. (I was thinking along the line of HBO dramas.) What an awesome show. Vic, played by Michael Chiklis, is definitely one bad man.

As for the Sopranos, unlike Nicky, I didn't mind season 5. I kind of enjoyed exploring the New York angle, it kinds of make the show fresh. To each to his own.

In my opinion, Season 3 and 4 were weak especially season 4. I cannot even remembered what happened except for Ralphie getting whacked.

I think Seasons 1-5 of The Sopranos were solid. Though 1 and 2 stood out because of Livia. I can see why people think it slowed down a bit in Seasons 3 and 4. But it picked up again in Season 5. The weak season, in my opinion, was the last one. I've ranted about it again and again. Season 5 set up things perfectly for a normal 13 episode Season 6. But Chase let HBO's $ go for quantity rather than quantity. And much of last season was just treading water until the final few episodes when they had to quickly wrap everything up.

If you guys like "The Shield", i highly recommend Sons of Anarchy. Created by Kurt Sutter who had a big hand in The Shield. Lot of the same actors, too.

Season 4 is generally considered to be the Wire's best season.

You kidding right? So far it sucks, maybe its because i am still at the beginning.

What i see in this show is, the black gangs. They are going through what the Italian mobsters went through in early 20s and 30s.

I'm not kidding. Most of us will probably agree.

I am about to start with episode 6, and it is getting more interested now. I will hold my breath, maybe its not the worse season

season 4 is great! i thought the same thing murkemin i thought the show couldn't go on with out stringer bell and avon...but they did a good job. i thought the 5th season wasn't as INTENSE but it was still just as good.

Season 4 is the shit. Marlo, Chrios and Snoop are fuckin' ruthless.

Friday night lights was an awesome show as well

Mad men too

cant say i agree about friday night lights dapper...

I started on the last season a while ago, somehow the Co-op of Prop Joe reminds me of the Commission. I see a pattern, its the exact road the Italian gangs took, chaos, murder etc. But after the forming of the Commission it was more stable, you can see the same pattern in the Wire for the black gangs.

And i must say, season 4 was one of the saddest seasons
So many good people died and ended up worse, Randy... Bodie...
a shame.

i thought the same thing about the co op. they just werent as organized

Cant believe they killed Prop Joe man, he was the only smart guy beside Stringer Bell. Cant wait how it will end for Omar and Marlo.
Dont spoil anything for me.

You're asking for it though.

Cant believe this shit, Omar killed by a little kid. That was one of the moments i hated the Wire, he was a real standup guy.

Well, with that done. Season is almost over, cant wait to whats gonna happen next.

Well... The Wire is over, i really enjoyed it. One of my favourite series, cant wait to see more like these kind of shows.

Now aren't you glad you gave it a chance? If you haven't seen it yet, I'd suggest you check out Breaking Bad next.

That and Oz, Mukremin it has mafia elements...

Yeah i am, i did struggle at first, was under the influence of the Sopranos. But in the end it all went well, its a super show.
And i am looking at the other series you guys mentioned.

this pissed me off so bad! broady had a better killing than omar! the writers could have done mroe with omar!

Yeah, i agree.. I knew he was going to get killed soon, but more in a open street gunfight. Fighting off Marlo's goons etc. But i gotta give credit to the young kid, he has potential along with Michael to take over the streets.

Well, it's possible to appreciate other TV series while still recognizing The Sopranos as the best of all.

You are right Ivy! But still i had these things going on my mind, lucky for me that its over now by the way, i am watching Sopranos again. FOr the 10th time now.

you will see the dif and that the sopranos is much better. i bet in a cpl years u wont be saying that ur watching the wire for the tenth time

Haha yeah, i am enjoying it. And of course, The Wire is good. But the Sopranos is fantastic, Wire has its moments though.

Heh, personally, I feel exactly the reverse. I prefer The Wire to Sopranos, but Sopranos are good to great too, particularly the first 2 seasons .

The Wire depending on your social economic status as well as your age. They interviewed some teachers in Baltimore, when the series was still going, who said it couldn't have been anymore accurate.

The collaboration of ex-Baltimore police, as well as teachers and/or politicians gave it that authentic vibe.

I liked season 2 the best I don't want to spoil it for people who haven't seen the whole series but the way that season ends reminds me of how they end season 2 of Boardwalk. Build up a character and then..........

I am from Europe, middle-class, late thirties. No Italian or Afro-American connections. I have seen both of them for the first time this year. So, I dunno.

I love the Wire for it's general authenticity, great characters and uncompromising bleakness.

Sopranos are exaggerated (in fact, here they are often shelved in "comedy"). It works excellently at first, but IMHO somewhat runs out of steam later, even though there are a few great episodes here and there. Also, the murders become ever more unbelievable, I am sorry to say, both in frequency and in motivation.
I could buy people getting away with it in slums of Baltimore, but not in the middle-class environment of whatever New Jersey city/town the Sopranos are set in.

I scored the companion book The Wire: Truth Be Told for Xmas, and just started hacking into it. Its great. Beyond the sypnosis for every episode and a season overview, its got a bunch of articles on different facets of the show and interviews with the creators and actors.

FWIW, I agree with Celebel (great post BTW) Sure Soprano's is/was awesome. Sure it covers the "Italian American Experience", as it may be. But The Wire tells a story far more typical of most big cities. Sure its "Bal'more", but its far more relevant to inner city life anywhere than Soprano's was. It paints a more universal picture.

Hacking through said book, and Im discovering a few interesting little bits of trivia.

The original script for the Stringer Bell death scene had Omar flopping it out a taking a piss on his dead body, supposedly to signify his disregard for Bell. The actors expressed disatisfaction which George Pellecanos agreed with; it was subsequently rewritten as we saw it.

Also, apparently Michael K. Williams cannot whistle! A middle aged white female sound engineer whistled "The Farmer in the Dell" and it was dubbed in throughout the series run.

There's plenty more tidbits and trivia in the book, when I have a bit more time I'll go through a few more perhaps.

The Sopranos was set more in the suburbs anyway.

has anyone seen the short films they made with the characters when they were younger such as prop joe, omar mcnulty

Meh. I know better than to try to argue the merits of The Wire over The Sopranos with you...

...but Im gonna do it anyway
Sure Sopranos captured the suburban zeitgeist, even managing to make an otherwise boring as shit notion into a compelling series. As Chase himself has said (and Im paraphrasing here) the mafia element in the show was a vehicle to explore latter day suburban life. Truth be told, its a bit of a one trick pony.

The Wire in comparison explores so much more. Beyond the obvious themes of each season (the scourge of drugs, shady politics and corruption, failing institutions and the degredation of modern journalsim), Season Two in particular (and the others to a differing extent) touched on white flight, urban decay, gentrification and, however briefly, life in the suburbs. Unlike The Sopranos though, it doesn't need to make it a major theme to get the points across.

Advantage: The Wire. Every time.

Get back to me in another 10 years or so and see which one stands the test of time better.

Deal. I'll meet you back here on 2/1/2022.

We will all be long dead in 2022. We will all be dead before the end of this year, trust me. The Aztecs have foreseen it.

Anyway, I've seen a shitload of series since Boardwalk Empire started last year; the Borgias, Shogun, the Sopranos, Rome, Game of Thrones, The Pillars of the Earth, the Wire. But the one that stands out the most is the Sopranos, followed closely by Game of Thrones and Boardwalk Empire. The Wire is an extremely authentic serie, but it isn't near as entertaining as the Sopranos.

I wholeheartedly disagree. For me, The Wire was ever more entertaining in the long run.

I thought it was the Mayans? Anyway, you're right about The Sopranos being at the top. And give Mickey some time. He'll come around eventually.

You're right, my mistake. But grant me that you could easily confuse the two. These empires were practically neighbors.

Oh and Mickey, I want to arrange a meeting with you to talk things over. Come see me at the basement of that Montreal house, you know which one I mean. You will feel safe there, I guarantee it. I'm sure we will straighten things out.

im sure thats prob what they told Sal Montagna as well and look what happened to him... just saying lol

Im uh...no thanks. Im busy that day. On all of the days.

That was just a misunderstanding. I would never touch a hair on Mickey's head, he's my best friend.

Your bestest friend? Oh hell, I guess Ill come to the meeting! Its the one close to that river right? Ill tell my driver to stay in the car! I probably wont need to bring my gun right? That Sal Montagna sized hole in the window doesn't worry me a bit, Im sure its just coincidence! Ill see you there, friend!

*Meatballs comes to meeting. Gets shot. Dives through Montagna sized hole in window, jumps across snowy banks of river and dies in the muck screaming "THE WIRE 4 EVA!!!11!!". Surete' finds him and shakes their heads, though forced to concede that yes, The Wire is actually the better show.

SB fucks up, gets arrested and the GangsterBB family put a contract on his head.

Poor Sicilian Babe! What did SB do? She just hangs out in the Off Topic houses, being all cool and chilled and stuff. How did she ever get mixed up in this nonsense? Oh, and she's a she, not a he. And why would the Commish put one out on her?

*single tear. She coulda been a contender.

...wait, what are we talking about again?

We were talking about a sit-down Ivyleague proposed and I would organize. I'm sure we can come to an agreement about The Wire and The Sopranos. After this meeting, there will be no more minunderstandings.

If you read the new Rolling Stones with The Black Keys on the cover, there is a good article about "snoop" in there. Steve King said she was the scariest female villain in a TV series.

Ive always liked that quote, especially coming from a guy like King. Felicia "Snoop" Pearson's an interesting figure for sure; born a crack-baby, identifying as a lesbian from a young age, convicted of murder as a teen and 'discovered' by Michael K. Williams in a Baltimore bar, introduced to David Simon and put on the show.

facepalm

Right. Im busy that day. On all the days.

Y'heard?

Browsing Reddit the other day I came across an AMA by author and Wire writer George Pelecanos.

In response to a question about a supposed sixth series of The Wire, Pelecanos responded with the following (I thought was quite interesting and decided to share.


We had five stories to tell, and to their credit HBO kept us on the air to do it. In truth, the ratings did not justify keeping us further, but the aftermarket sales in video, domestic and international, made the show hugely profitable for HBO. We would have liked to look at the Latino culture in Baltimore, and tackle immigration, but we ran out of time. It's funny, Ed Burns wanted to do a season about horse racing, the track, and organized crime. It's all connected in Maryland, but again, no time. Now, David Milch has done it with Luck on HBO. I watched the first ep, and I think it's fantastic.

Was gonna start a new thread but remember it got some talk on here. just watched 5/6ths of The Corner. OMFG. How good.

As a few other guys have mentioned, its a spin out seeing guys from The Wire in almost completely different roles. And goddamn: Gary McCullogh; the Bubbles prototype.

Im watching the last ep. tonight, and all the reviews say that this one is the most full-on. Some deaths, some "falls", etc. Really glad I finally watched it, I left it way too long.

two of my favourite scenes.

This is the guy marlo stansfield was based on.


In the mid-1980s, Timmirror Stanfield was a major Baltimore drug trafficker. In 1986 Stanfield was 25 and ran a gang which included over fifty members. The Stanfield gang controlled South Baltimore's Westport area and West Baltimore's Murphy Homes housing project.[26] The gang committed multiple murders, and drew the attention of authorities, who were able to persuade fifteen witnesses to testify. The core of the gang was convicted.[27] This real life criminal forms the basis of the character's origins while emphasizing the rise in brutality from the American heroin trade of the 1970s to the crack cocaine trade of the 1980s.

The gang was responsible for several murders, and the investigation focused on four of the murders that occurred at the 725 George Street highrise. Former Maryland State Attorney Kurt Schmoke authorized Assistant State Attorney Howard Gersh to use a special grand jury to investigate the gang. Approximately 40 gang members and other neighborhood witnesses testified before the panel. Within 5 months, the four cases were prepared for trial, with 15 gang members ready to testify against Stanfield. Three of the cases were presented for prosecution, and convictions were secured against the nucleus of the gang.

Boardley Investigation

With certain modifications and on a larger scale, the investigative process developed in the Stanfield case was used in the Boardley investigation with equally impressive results. Warren Boardley, Nadir Abdullah, and Christopher Burrows controlled a vast drug distribution network centered in the Lexington Terrace/Poe Homes housing project and spreading throughout the West Baltimore and Cherry Hill areas of the city. The gang employed four full-time gunmen and used eight others, all hired by contract.

The scope of this investigation was broader than the Stanfield investigation in that it sought to employ the federal Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organizations Act statute, which used murder, narcotics trafficking, and money laundering as the predicated crimes. The results were similarly impressive. Several members turned against the gang nucleus, even though the core group was not incarcerated while the grand jury was sitting.

The investigative process employed in the Boardley investigation works because of the way in which each gang member is bonded to the gang. In areas where gangs flourish, gang membership to achieve status and money is an accepted norm, like pursuing an education, a job, or sports. Consequently, youth with minimal or no criminal tendencies are drawn to gangs and fall under the tutelage of gang leaders. Most members do not comprehend the scope of the gang's lawlessness and are not prepared for the types of crime assigned to them. The degree of adaptation or corruption depends on the individual's proclivity for crime. The assignment to commit a criminal act occurs before the subject is able to make an intelligent choice. Therefore, the subject becomes committed to the gang despite strong reservations that may linger.

The Stanfield investigation was developed and prosecuted by the state. The Boardley investigation was a joint effort by state and federal authorities. Both investigations were successful, and both approaches have their merits. A joint investigation takes advantage of the strengths of each. A major weakness, highlighted in the Boardley investigation, is the lack of clearly established lines of responsibility among the federal and local participants.

Investigations' Conclusions

From the evidence gathered in the Stanfield and Boardley investigations, it appears that only a few members adopted the violent mentality of the core group. The majority of gang members appear to be trapped between their essentially good upbringing and their fear of the gang's violence. Those members who are uncertain and confused are the ones who the investigators target. The process proposes to resolve a subject's conflicts by offering a safe alternative to the gang—cooperation with government officials.

The investigative strategy achieves its primary goals. This process disempowers the leader, disrupts the integrity of the gang, and generates new evidence that leads to successful prosecutions of the gang's nucleus. The investigative process has a significant impact on both those who cooperate and those who are prosecuted. Based on 1998 data, the Murphy Homes area—formerly known as the Murder Homes—has not experienced new gang or gang-related murders. Drug dealing still exists in the neighborhood, but not with the degree of organization or violence imposed by the former gang.

I think, Omar's killing was one of the most intelligent scenes in The Wire. They tried to get at him in million ways, which made him to be careful in some special way, which led to a certain blindness. "The game" as they call it here ("business" in The Godfather) is a like a Russian roulette. No-one's safe. No-one. You can't predict anybody's fate. Who would have thought that Poot will be the one who survives from the old crew. You just can't "keep the devil way down in the hole". If you believe you're smart, you have lost already.

Liked season one, two and three, hated season four (fast forwarded multiple epsiodes),

but then...season five: loved it! One of the best things i have ever seen on screen in my live. The problem is, you have to watch the first four seasons to get it.

Cast, Creators, Crew Interviews from The Wire

It's the best show I've ever watched. It's less easy to watch as for instance the Sopranos but so much more rewarding imho.
And now the new musical really completes the whole experience:
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/414fa4b226/the-wire-the-musical-with-michael-kenneth-williams

The Lego Wire

I've seen the first two seasons. I liked it, especially season 2. Full of great characters and the mystery surrounding 'The Greeks' is really clever ( my guess is that they're part of Russian OC and that the leader and Vondas are Pontians ).

real life inspiration for omar dies after emergency heart surgery. He also starred in the wire as omars accomplice.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2012...n=button_chunky

Man that was a great series and great character and now michael k williams is playing chalky white and is awesome...

Cutty is in the walking dead as well he plays tyreese

A question about the ending of the last season:

"The Wire" Star Found Dead In Baltimore Apartment

Former "The Wire" star Robert F. Chew reportedly passed away this week in his Baltimore, Maryland apartment due to health complications at the age of 52.

According to reports, the actor, most known as 'Proposition Joe," died from cardiovascular disease.

Robert F. Chew -- best known for playing Proposition Joe on "The Wire" -- was found dead yesterday in his apartment in Baltimore ... TMZ has learned. According to the coroner in Baltimore, Chew died of cardiovascular disease. "Morbid obesity" was listed as a contributing factor. Chew had very little acting experience before "The Wire" or after. He was on the cult HBO show -- which took place in Baltimore -- for five seasons. (TMZ)

"The Wire" creator David Simon reflected on losing a former cast member.

"Robert was not only an exceptional actor, he was an essential part of the film and theater community in Baltimore," David Simon, creator of 'The Wire' said in an email Friday. "He could have gone to New York or Los Angeles and commanded a lot more work, but he loved the city as his home and chose to remain here working. He understood so much about his craft that it was no surprise at all that we would go to him to coach our young actors in season four. He was the conduit through which they internalized their remarkable performances." (Baltimore Sun)

Fellow "Wire" star Jamie Hector, who played "Marlo Stanfield," paid his condolences to Chew Friday (January 18).

"I didn't want to believe this #RIP Robert F Chew, Prop Joe will always be remembered Robert Chew will always be loved and missed!," he tweeted Friday. (Jamie Hector's Twitter)

Another notable "Wire" actor Wendell Pierce remembered Chew's on and off-camera legacy.

"To the beloved Robert Chew, a man who was real Bawlmore, and created the iconic character of "Prop Joe", may you RIP. A teacher & friend.," he tweeted January 18th. (Wendell Pierce's Twitter)

http://www.sohh.com/2013/01/the_wire_star_found_dead_in_baltimore_ap.html

Sad news.. RIP

That was dumb!!

What is dumb?

I absolutely love this show. I watched it after it ended so I would watch like 2-3 episodes a day. It's like hydrocodone, addictive as hell!

I wish they had a real life "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" for TV shows and movies. I'd watch this like over and over again.

I HATE THE WIRE!!
I HATE THE WIRE!!
I HATE THE WIRE!!
I HATE THE WIRE!!

I think Reed was on point about many things about The Wire.

Do you want to discuss something? Then tell us some specific points. If not, then why do you bother at all?

Are you and WestBaltimore96 the same person by any chance.. Another troll

absolutely this. they look like italian mafiosi. they say they re not greeks but they speak greek sometimes. all this mistery make them a kind of great characters. maybe the same with chris snoop and marlo, u will see them the last three season. What a character Chris!

https://www.geo.tv/amp/285902-the-wire-cast-to-be-reunited-for-new-baltimore-show

Looks like David Simon, Ed Burns and George Pelecanos are teaming up once again for a cop drama set in Baltimore. According to the article he'll be bringing back seasoned actors from The Wire.

Seems strange after reading a recent article where David Simon claims to be done with episodic television but I'm glad he seems to have changed his mind. Damn, I'm really looking forward to this.

That's exciting.

i would have actually loved a follow up of the Wire with some of the old characters.

Bring back Stringer Bell!!

Stringer got killed.

Stringer: "Well then get on with it muthafu.."
Omar & Brother Mouzzone: "Bang, bang, bang, bang"