Boxing (history, LaMotta and more)

Ok, I was about to post this in the sport section, but with Jake LaMotta etc, I think it would be more interesting to post this in general disc.

Read before you vote.... (and please, I dont want to see Jake LaMotta winning this poll because of Raging Bull...be objective...) who is the greatest boxer that ever lived?

John L. Sullivan

The first modern world heavyweight champ. AKA "The Boston Strongboy"
Known for his extreme brutality. Started with bare-knuckles boxing matches and made his way to the top until the new age of "smart boxing" made him face the new techniques which were superior to his fighting style...or lack of it. He was very strong but not a tactical fighter.

Jack Dempsey

What can I say? he is my favorite boxer of all time. His fighting style and most of all his fighting spirit is so intense, that you just gotta love it. There were greater boxers later on, but none were so wonderful to watch. Hes the reason I started boxing myself.

Jack Johnson

The best defensive boxer that ever lived.
Some may not like his style, but its efficient nontheless. So efficient that he rocked the world again and again, most notably while defeating "The Great White Hope" AKA Jim Jeffries, the retired champ who was sent to defeat the black Johnson and restore the pride of the white race. But he didnt have a chance. His age was a factor and Johnson's defensive style proved once again how brilliant it is. He later became America's NO.1 enemy when siding with the germans and Max Schmeling against Joe Lewis, in what was known as "The fight of the century" - a nickname later used to describe the fight between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier.

Joe Louis

The black boxer who represented America in the ultimate clash against Hitler Germany. Note the irony that a black boxer was chosen to defeat the germans. Like I said before, Max Schmeling had Jack Johnson on his side, which was a great advantage against Louis. In the first match Schmeling won, but the 1938 rematch was the prime of Louis' career. He won in what is arguably considered to be the real "fight of the century".
He later lost to Rocky Marciano who was a big fan of his, and that basically started the end of his glorious career.


Jake LaMotta

Do I need to say anything about his mob connection?...maybe I should just quote LaMotta himself while explaining his actions :

"I did what I had to do to get a shot at the title, and if I had to do it all over again, I'd do the same thing."

That was the case. The mob's influence on the boxing world was huge. Frankie Carbo AKA Mr.Grey was THE mobster to see if a lil fight fixing was what you want. As for Jake LaMotta, he needed the mobsters to give him the shot at the title which he truly deserved but couldnt get on his own. He accepted the deal to sell a fight, he later testified about it, the rest is history, we've got a movie called "Raging Bull" and so on.

As a boxer, he was outstanding, earning the name "Raging Bull" and rightly so. However, too bad for him, ha had to face a superior opponent in the shape of Sugar Ray Robinson....the man who would become the greatest boxer that ever lived. He lost 5 times out of 6 to Robinson, and I think the numbers speak for themselves. LaMotta was a great boxer, but certainly not as good as Robinson.


Sugar Ray Robinson

The greatest boxer of all time....IMO anyway.
In his style, Robinson basically represents the new age of boxing. The superb technique which depends on constant leg movement has proven to be the most efficient one. A combination of speed, tactics and power that is no less than breathtaking. In a nutshell, he was the ultimate fighter.

Muhammad Ali

Probably the most famous boxer. Any grandma who knows jack about boxing will recognize the name. Im not going into all his off-ring stories which you're all familiar with. As far as boxing goes, he stunned the world when he defeated Sonny Liston in a fight, which was considered by many to be a "fix"...and that was not the last time the word "fix" was used against Ali. However, he made his way to the top, and will always be remembered for his famous matches against Joe Frazier, most notably "The Thrilla in Manila" - a fight which is considered by many (including me) to be the greatest boxing match the world has ever witnessed. Really, I watched this fight like 200 times, and it never cease to amaze me. You really see 2 guys who barely stand on their feet, yet they continue to fight to the very last drop of blood so to speak. A truly "heroic" fight which symbolizes the willpower of man. Yeah, I just wrote that line.

Mike Tyson

What can I say, he was the goldenboy of boxing. "Iron Mike" was trained by no less than legendary coach Cus D'Amato. Despite D'Amato's death, Tyson continued to win again and again. He will always be remembered for "The Bite Fight" during which he tried a piece of Holyfield's ear, and of course...for the match against Lennox Lewis, where he lost the title but managed to redeem his "badass image" with the gesture of wiping Lennox' blood from his eyes....who said boxing is a barbaric sport? cant u see the love?

Allright then, I'm gonna finish with this, I've left a few names which truly deserve to be listed here...anyone wants to say a word about Floyd "The Gentleman" Patterson?

I know it was a long read, but you should thank me it was only about certain boxers...you dont want me to start talking about the history of boxing and the Queensberry Rules do you?

So in conclusion, my fav boxer is Jack Dempsey, but my vote goes to Sugar Ray Robinson - definitely the greatest boxer of all time.

How can you not put Rocky Marciano, He did go undefeated!!!!!!!!

My Bad I Didn't see Rocky Marciano

LaMotta is one guy of several who doesn't belong in there with those other greats.

Except for one (I thimk it was one) win over Sugar Ray, his career was nothing special.

Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, and Larry Holmes all come to mind as being better than LaMotta, and I'm sure I can think of others.

I don't think a reasonable case can be made for Lennox Lewis, Frazier, or Schmeling, and certainly not Floyd Patterson, either.

Anyway, my vote goes to Ali.

Sugar Ray Robinson long ago started being regarded as the all-time pound-for-pound best professional fighter ever. I believe he's stood the test of time. Almost 200 professional fights, multiple titles and defenses in multiple weight classes (at a time when weight classes meant something)...sheer talent.
All of the others had their high points and earned their time in the spotlight. Ali, in particular, helped to resurrect boxing at a time when it had fallen into the trashcan. And, before they stripped him of his title, he was a thing of beauty and a joy forever... But Robinson was the best.

I agree that some of the choices listed in the poll don't deserve to be there. Floyd Patterson, Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis and Jake LaMotta are laughable considering the company of the others.

Willie Pep and Henry Armstrong should have been included in their places.

Now for the best:

Joe Louis had his "bum-of-the-month" opponents but he fought some quality names, too (Max Baer, Max Schmeling, Billy Conn, Jim Braddock). I rule him out, though, since most of his career was spent against "no-names".

Rocky Marciano, although maybe the hardest hitting fighter ever, gets ruled out for the same reason. Sure, he was undefeated (and thats something to consider) and sure, he fought some quality opponents (Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott Ezzard Charles) but like Louis he fought mostly "no-names".

Sugar Ray Robinson was the best pound for pound fighter and he had the most "best" opponents. He had speed, cunning and surprising power (over 50% of his wins were KO's).

Muhammad Ali had everything to give him the title (as best ever). Great opponents, great speed, great power. I give him a slight edge over Robinson.

Rocky Balboa was the greatest of them all

Interestingly, neither Louis nor, especially, Marciano would be considered heavyweights today. Louis usually fought at under 200 lbs.; Marciano at about 185--cruiserweights today.
Ezzard Charles weighed 184 when he defeated the over-the-hill Louis (blown up to 218) in 1950. Some ring historians think Charles was a boxing great. Others note that he was "owned" by Frankie (Mr. Gray) Carbo of the Mob.

Ali himself considered Sugar Ray Robinson to be the greatest pound for pound fighter of all time.

But I have trouble with these types of argument. As long as the best are bunched together and considered in the argument - that's all what matters. The rest is subjective due to strength of opponants, era they fought, etc.

Fame, if you start a favourite boxer of all time thread I'd be much more eager to offer my input.

Im not gonna start another thread on the topic, so feel free to offer your input Turs. Id like to hear about your fav boxers. My choice, like I said, is Dempsey.

Admittedly I don't know enough to properly judge who was the Greatest, probably Robinson or Ali, but Jack Dempsey gets my vote - for his sheer aggression. The man was a coiled spring, naturally aggressive; a born fighter. I too find him the most inspiring of boxers, Fame. And of course there's thatleft hook.

I always loved watching Chris Eubank. More than anybody else.

Did you ever see any old film clips of Marciano?

He was at least as agressive as Dempsey,and possibly more so.

Dempsey knew how to box.....at least a little bit - jabs, counter-punching, defense, etc., and used those skills at times, but Marciano's style was nothing but wade in and throw bombs.

A lot like Mike Tyson and Joe Frazier, actually, but I think he was even more of a slugger from what little I've seen.

To me, it's a toss up between Marciano and Ali.

No question that they were two different styled fighters, but none the less both the greatest in their own right.

Ali :

Record: 56 Wins, 5 Loss, 37 Knockouts

1960 Olympic Light Heavyweight Gold Medallist

Heavyweight Champion 1964-67, 1974-78, 1978-79


Marciano :

Record: 49 Wins, 0 Loss, 43 Knockouts

The ONLY undefeated champion in ANY weight class in the history of gloved boxing.

Heavyweight Champion 1952-1956


Tough call.


Don Cardi

I know nothing about boxing, but from what I saw from clips of those named here, (and considering Raging Bull :p ), I think Cassius Clay and Sugar Ray were the best. Can't chose between them. Runner-up is Joe Louis.

Ali, in his prime, would've boxed rings around Marciano, I think.

The level of competition in the Heavyweight Division was much stronger during Ali's day, and he fought and beat just about everyone during his 17-18 years on top.

While Marciano was undefeated, he was not on top very long before retiring, and didn't beat nearly as many "name" fighters in their prime as Ali did.

The four best that Rocky faced were Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcott, and Archie Moore, all of whom had seen better days to some degree.

The guys Ali fought and beat were mostly in their prime when he beat them.

As I said Plaw, it's a tough call. But let's address some of the points that you've made here.

When Ali aka Clay turned pro, in his first 15 or so fights, the only name that he fought was Ingmar Johannson, the rest were just a bunch of no names. Then after a few more fights he took on the legendary Archie Moore. But Moore's better days were way behind him and obviously Ali's handlers set him up for that fight only because of Moore's past reputation. It was a good name that was sure to bring Ali some recognition. Then it wasn't until 2 years later that he fought and defeated Sonny Liston. Then again basically a bunch of no names for another year until his fight with Floyd Patterson in 1965. In reality after the Patterson fight it was not until 1971 that he again faced a reputable opponent in Smokin Joe Frazier. Of course we know that he could not fight for two years in between facing Patterson and Frazier.

In truth, the only reputable fighters that he fought for the rest of his career was Frazier, a 37 year old Floyd Patterson, Ken Norton, George Foreman, Ernie 'questionable' Shavers, Leon 'was he really that good' Spinks and Larry Holmes.


Again, not taking anything away from Ali, as I said he was definitely one of if not the greatest, but he had a lot of no name fights in between those name fights throughout his career. I think that his persona added to his great fights is what made him that much more popular in the boxing world.


As for Marciano, well I don't know if you could really say that Archie Moore had seen his better days when he fought Marciano in 1955 as compared to Ali fighting Moore in 1962. As for the rest from that list, you are right. The youngest one from that list that Marciano fought was probably a 31 year old Ezzard Charles. And if I'm not mistaken, I don't believe that Marciano was EVER knocked down in a fight.


Don Cardi

Patterson probably should have gotten the award for Most Chances Given to No-Name Fighters. In '57, he fought Pete Rademacher, a former Olympian who never had a professional fight before he stepped into the ring with Floyd; in '58, Roy (Cut 'n Shoot) Harris, who had fought anyone of any substance previously. I think both of them knocked him down (Harris lasted more than 12 rounds). Then in '59, Johansen, who'd never fought in America before, knocked him out with the famous "t'oonder." The rematch was the only time I ever saw Patterson with the killer look.

Im not gonna start another thread on the topic, so feel free to offer your input Turs. Id like to hear about your fav boxers. My choice, like I said, is Dempsey. [/b][/quote]My favourite fighter from the past would probably be Roberto Duran. I'm very much looking forward to his biography coming out soon. He never ducked anyone and especially in such a competitive era of Leonard, Hearns, Hagler et al.

I also liked JC Chavez. His record and career speaks for himself. His son looks good too, the kid has potential.

Right now my favourite fighters are:

Enzo Maccarinelli, an up and coming Welshman at Cruiser and his next fight should be for a world title. I personally feel he could go on to dominate the division.

I just love Oscar De La Hoya too. He's just the man, everything about him is so likable. It'll be a sad day when the Golden Boy retires which I don't want to see but talk of a fight against Floyd Mayweather Jr scares me.

Calzaghe has always been a favourite but suffered two problems. First he has been protected for a little too long until his recent fight against Lacy. Secondly many fighters dodge him. Ricky Hatton also suffers the same fate.

(Just for the record, DC, Ali never fought Ingemar Johannson.)

If you examine and compare their records closely, you will see that Marciano was nothing more than a club fighter, really, who fought most of his early bouts – nd many of his later ones - in and around the New England area - mostly Providence, RI - against a series of nobodies.

He didn't receive any real national recognition until his fight against Joe Louis, who was many years past his prime and only fighting because he owed the IRS a huge amount of money.

When Marciano beat Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles, both fighters were well into their 30’s, and you could argue that the only heavyweight of note in his prime that Marciano beat was Archie Moore, who was really just an over-stuffed light heavyweight.

Clay/Ali, meanwhile, beat just about every single heavyweight of note from 1963 until 1978, and you left quite a few of them off your list of Ali's credible opponents.

Doug Jones, Henry Cooper (twice), Sonny Liston (twice), Floyd Patterson (twice), George Chuvalo (twice), Cleveland Williams, Ernie Terrell, Zora Foley, Jerry Quarry (twice), Oscar Bonavena, Joe Frazier (won 2 out of 3), Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton (lost their first fight, then won the rematch), George Foreman, Ron Lyle, Ernie Shavers, and Leon Spinks (lost their first fight and won the rematch).

Many of those fights took place during the time when you sy that "In reality after the Patterson fight it was not until 1971 that he again faced a reputable opponent in Smokin Joe Frazier."

In fact, during that period he fought and beat Chuvalo, Cooper, Williams, Terrell, Foley, Quarry, and Bonavena, who were the top heavyweights of that time period and all considered reputable opponents.

Liston, who was the champion, Paterson, who was the former champ, and Williams, Terrell, Frazier, Ellis, Norton, and especially Foreman, were all considered outstandingfighters – not that the others weren’t important contenders - and most were in their prime or close to it when Ali beat them.

Most of all, though, is the fact that Ali was much bigger, stronger, and faster than Marciano, who I see as comparable in style to Joe Frazier, only a bit smaller, I think.

I think that the main reason Marciano receives the credit that he does is because he retired undefeated.

If he had lost a flukey decision or something in a four-rounder early in his career and retired at 48-1 instead of 49-0, people wouldn’t give him a second thought in a discussion about who the greatest ever was, and he would’ve been regarded the same way we think of Joe Frazier: A “know no fear” slugger, who won a lot of fights with punching power and heart, but wasn’t really that great a fighter.

All he proved to me by retiring undefeated was that he was perhaps a little bit smarter than most fighters before and after him, not necessarily that he was any better.

Plaw, I believe that they fought when Ali first turned pro.


Turi, EXCELLENT choice. I'm as guilty as the originator of this topic in not even mentioning him among these other fighters. He totally slipped my mind. DUH. Absolutely one of the best fighters in the history of boxing.


Don Cardi

Marciano was knocked down twice (that I know of). In his fight against Walcott (when Rocky won the title) Marciano was knocked down in the first round and he was way behind in points when he finally knocked Jersey Joe out in the 13th round. (Walcott was almost 40 years old at that time and the toll of the fight tired him out enough for Marciano to finish him off - if it was a 12 rounder Walcott would have kept the title).

Archie Moore also knocked Marciano down (in the second round) in Rocky's last fight. Ezzard Charles had Marciano on the ropes early on in their second fight and the fight was almost stopped when Marciano's nose was split open.

Perhaps, but Marciano took a good deal of punishment in addition to giving it out and that counts for something. He was, IMO, the hardest hitting fighter of all time. His record of 88% of wins by KO (43 of 49 fights) is testament to that. He was a better fighter than you're giving him credit for.

If Ali and Marciano fought each other in their primes, Ali would have outboxed him but the fight would have gone the distance and Ali would have won only because of his superior physical being.

Ali never would have beat Marciano! :p (it's an Italian thing )


SC, I know that you are an Ali fan. Didn't he fight Johannsen very early in his career when he was Clay?


Don Cardi

Ali and Johanssen never fought.

Another reason why Marciano was so well-regarded was that he was modest, articulate and well-spoken--a big contrast with the flashy, thuggish or inarticulate image of fighters in general. Patterson also was well-liked for his modest, even gentle, ways, and because he was an Olympian and was the youngest heavyweight champ ever. But the heavyweight division began going downhill after he ran out of credible opponents and was knocked down by some of them. After the the first Johanssen fight, a lot of people lost faith in Floyd--they thought his gentle manner indicated a lack of "killer instinct" that had sustained Dempsey and others. He regained some credibility after the Johanssen rematch (first-ever h'weight champ to regain the title), but the two Liston defeats sank him forever--he seemed paralyzed with fear. Liston's tenure marked the nadir of the h'weight division and boxing in general. Ali singlehandedly brought boxing back. Every fighter since owes him a debt.
Ali also was responsible for a landmark Supreme Court decision in the Civil Rights era:
The government hated Ali's "uppity" ways and the fact that he became a Muslim at a time of civil unrest and "Black Power." He was draft-eligible, but flunked the intelligence test ("I always said I was the greatest--not the smartest"). The Selective Service System then dumbed down the intelligence test--supposedly to meet higher draft calls for the Vietnam War, but really to ensnare Ali.
Ali then claimed exemption as a Muslim minister. His local draft board turned him down. Ali made numerous appeals, all turned down. Finally, he refused induction. He was immediately stripped of his championship, even though he hadn't even been indicted yet. He spent more than two years (and $2 million in legal fees) fighting it all the way to the Supreme Court.
The Court ruled, unanimously, in Ali's favor. He was registered in a Selective Service local district in Houston, TX. The population was nearly all black. But all of the Draft Board members were white. The Supreme Court ruled that, in the future, Draft Boards had to reflect the racial and ethic character of the neighborhoods they represented--a giant step forward in accountability, given the near-total power that the Selective Service had over young men at the time.

My favorite fighter (as opposed to the best fighter) was a Cuban welterweight, Kid Gavilan, who fought in the Forties and Fifties. I used to see him on the Friday Night Fights (with Jimmy Powers). His flashy style and "bolo" punch fascinated me as a kid. He had a 103-30 record with only 26 kayos. But he was the champ for several years, and he fought every welterweight contender of the era: Paddy DeMarco, Ray Robinson (twice), Ike Williams, Bobo Olson, Johnny Saxon, Johnny Bratton, Billy Graham, etc.

True, but I grew up being a Rocky Marciano fan.

Ok, I remember watching something about ALI on televison and could have sworn that they said that Clay fought Johansson early in his career. I just did a search for Ali's matches and it turns out that Clay and Johansson sparred back in 1961. My bad. I knew that I heard about them fighting, but didn't know that it was only a sparring match.

Hey TB, when I was a kid I went through a phase where I was really into boxing. So my dad bought me some 8MM films for my 8MM projector ( remember those? ) and I remember seeing some films on guys like Kid Gavelin, Kid Chocolate, Willie Pep, Sandy Sandler, Bobo Olsen, Carmen Basilio, Lulu Perez, etc.

I think that I still have some of those 8MM films somewhere. Now after reading this topic, I'm itching to view them again.


Don Cardi

Lets not forget Tony Janiro. Who is Tony Janiro, you ask? Look on the back page of the newspaper when Michael Corleone reads about his father getting shot. :p

True story. About 10 years ago I went to an autogrpah show up in Connecticut and stood overnight at a hotel. Jake LaMotta was at that show and it turned out that he was staying in the same hotel as I was in. So that evening we went for a few drinks at the bar and LaMotta was sitting at the bar. He was conversing with us and everyone was asking him questions about his career, etc. I asked him if the part in Raging Bull was accurate about his wanting to destroy Janiro after his wife Vicky said that Janiro was good looking.

LaMotta said to us that when he faced Janiro in the ring, all he kept thinking about was that his wife thought that Janiro was good looking and the thought of that enraged LaMotta so bad that all he wanted to do was destroy Janiro's face, and he did.

Someone also asked him what his toughest fight ever was and after pausing to think about it for a few moments, he looked up and said " My second wife!"


Don Cardi

Certainly I remember 8mm films, DC. But, I don't remember seeing Gavilan, Olson, Basilio, etc. All I saw was people wearing high socks and sunglasses--and nothing else.

Growing up in the Miami area, I had a lot of chances to see bixing, and loved it. When he was still Cassius Clay, Ali used to come on the local sports show and predict the rounds he would K.O. his opponents. This was still when he was training in Miami Beach and fighting on undercards.

I also had the chance to see the second Emil Griffith - Benny Kid Paret fight (the one before he killed Paret). I met Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, and Ingemar Johansson.

I have a long ago remembrance of Carmen Basilio...wasnt he a big bleeder?

Its sad to see the state of Boxing these days....its more like pro wrestling. I wish they would organize it, have a commissioner and get the likes of Don King out of it. I am sick of having 15 champions in every division.

As for who was the greatest of all time...no question. ALI

And with 8mm films and projectors, one didn't have to worry about the chance of the projector picking up a virus while watching those only dressed in sunglasses and socks.


Don Cardi

And with 8mm films and projectors, one didn't have to worry about the chance of the projector picking up a virus while watching those only dressed in sunglasses and socks.


Don Cardi

What about Foreman, isn't he a great boxer?
He was considered greater than Ali at the time of the Rumble of the Jungle. I heard.

I recall reading a version of the Book of Lists from around 1979-1980 where boxing experts from Ring Magazine were asked to list the greatest heavyweights of all-time.
I don't recall who was #1, but Ali was in the middle of the pack. Reading it in the mid-90's, I was somewhat surprised because Ali's reputation had taken on legendary proportions.

Of course, an athlete's place in history isn't established until we can view it from some historical perspective, but I believe that while Ali was a great champion, his abilities today are somewhat overstated as his career benefited from several questionable decisions. Many agree that Ken Norton was robbed in Yankee Stadium, Frazier won the second fight, and I believe that Jimmy Young-a little known challenger in the mid-70s beat Ali. Many defended the questionable decisions in these fights at the time by saying, To beat a champion, you have to knock him out."

When Spinks defeated Ali in 1977(?), the fight was not that close, and Ali, tired and hurt, tried valiantly for a knockout in a stirring final round. He had Spinks in trouble until Leon delivered a stiffening right. Even that fight was a split decision.

Speaking of Spinks, by the way, wasn't the U.S. Boxing team of the 1976 Olympics their greatest? Howard Davis, Ray Leonard, Michael and Leon Spinks. Can't recall the others right now.

My path crossed Ali's in a way:
I often had business with one of my empoyer's units in a suburb of Chicago, flying in and out the same day. One afernoon in March of '87, I was sitting in a surprisingly uncrowded gate area at Chicago O'Hare Airport. I looked up and, not a hundred feet away, there was Muhammed Ali, standing in the middle of an aisle, alone. I couldn't get over it: the one and only Ali, right there! Superficially, he looked great: youthful, face unmarked, no gray hair, seemingly in good shape, without the paunch that so many ex-heavyweight fighters put on when they leave the ring. But one look at his face told me he was a million miles away. His Parkinson's Disease and other ailments attributed to the punishment he'd taken in the ring had been written about, and believe me, he looked really out of it.
Within a minute, a little middle-aged woman, evidently part of his entourage, took him by the arm, turned him around, and started walking him away, robot-like. Then a bunch of little kids spotted him and crowded around him, asking for autographs. A ghost of a smile came on his face, but the smile, too, was a million miles away.
It was a really sad thing to see.

I was a tremendous boxing fan back in the early 60's

Some more memories from then....

Floyd Patterson had a training camp in Highland Mills, NY, near a bungalow colony we used to go to, and he'd let the public in for free to watch him train, which was unheard of at the time.

I also vividly remember the Grifith-Paret fight, with refere Ruby Goldstein seeming to freeze while Paret, held up in a corner by the ringpost, absorbed punch after unanswered punch.

And my favorit fighter of the time?

A guy that I'd be surprised if anyone besides Turnbull or SC remembered:

Middleweight Florentino Fernandez.

Very rarely did they feature knockout artists on the Friday Night Gillette Fight of the Week, because, obviously, if the fight ended early they figured they would lose a lot of viewers.

So most of the fights, while featuring the better fighters of the day, produced very few knockouts.

But Fernandez was a true knockout artist who had a decent string of television KOs before being matched with - and losing to - middleweight champ Gene Fullmer.

Here's a very good piece comparing the careers of Ali and Marciano:

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=26&more=1

This one talks about their famous 1969 "Computer Fight":

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/1047//alirock.html

No, I have never seen him box. Where can I see him? Is there any recommended dvd/boxing history documentaries you or anyone else might know of?

sorry, apart from those links posted above. I am at work right now so i'll give'em a watch later on.

Nothing specific that I know of.

Just stuff I've seen on TV from time to time over the years, most recently on ESPN Classic.

If you're a Netflix member, though, I bet there are some DVDs available.

I'll take a look.....

Those links are for stuff to read, not watch.

This appears to be a DVD of the Marciano-Roland LaStarza fight, but it doesn't seem to be available from NetFlix:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0372403/

Here are two more with Marciano that NetFlix doesn't seem to have either:

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7055005&style=movie&cart=368627099&BAB=C

http://www.screenselect.co.uk/visitor/product/28133-Rocky-Marciano-Vs-Joe-Walcott.html

Marciano (and other fighters) used to train at Grossinger's one of the two biggest resort hotels in the Catskills. Grossinger's comped the fighters because they were a draw for paying guests, and also sports writers, who gave the hotel a plug while writing about the boxers.
Nino Benvenuti, the middleweight champ, trained at Villagio Italia, another Catskills resort. I remember when Howard Cosell visited him when he was training for his fight with Griffith. Evidently Nino trained on pasta and vino, because he and Cosell were stuffing their faces at a table that was more laden with food than a buffet on a cruise ship. But he had to visit Griffith in his gym. Emile refused to stop hitting the speed bag, claiming that his manager decreed he should take no breaks. He sweated all over Cosell, which Cosell liked a lot less than stuffing his face with Benvenuti.
The Daily News provided vivid and ongoing coverage of the Paret/Griffith fight and fatality. The story they printed was that Paret regarded Griffith as gay, taunted him with the word "maricon," which is a coarse word for homosexual in Spanish, and even squeezed his ass at the weigh-in. The fatality was the result, the News implied, although as you point out, the ref's inaction and being propped up against the ropes was the major factor. Last year, one of the TV "newsmagazines" had a segment on Griffith, who admitted that he was gay. He also met with Paret's son and the two embraced.

I remember in the 1970's Ali used to train in Deer Lake, PA, which still seems odd to me. When I saw him in his prime, I was too young to appreciate what I was seeing.

I also saw Larry Holmes' first professional fights in Scranton. Again, I was in grade school. He signed an autograph for me, but I think I lost it that night. As an undefeated heavyweight champ, he returned to Scranton to fight Lucien Rodriguez.

Finally, my only other brush with a heavyweight champ occurred in Philadelphia when Joe Frazier pulled up along side of me at a traffic light on South Street in the summer of 1983.

Interesting....I didn't know that.

I always figured Paret was just busting his chops.

Goldstein took a ton of heat from the media for the job he did that night, too, remember?

Griffith got loads of TV fights back in those days. He was a great boxer, and he fought a few 15 round snoozers with a welterweight contemporary of his who was also a master boxer, Luis Rodriguez.

Did you roll down your window and say "Hi"?

Did you roll down your window and say "Hi"? [/b][/quote]If it was in Philly he would have said "YO!"

I remember that Floyd Patterson after losing one of his fights put on a fake moustache and beard to disguise himself because he was ashamed of losing. I think it was after the second Liston fight, but I am not sure.

Patterson lived in Westchester County New York and was a devout Catholic for what its worth. I never thought he had the killer instinct he needed to be a great champion.

Griffith was one of my favorites. I saw him fight MANY times at the Garden and he always put on a great show. Rodriquez was a great fighter to watch, too.

A couple of random thoughts:

I was at the Garden on Feb 12th, 1965 to see Rodriquez fight "Hurricane" Carter (Rodriquez won a unanimous decision). My brother got us ringside seats and I got Rocky Graziano's autograph on the cover of the program. Emile Griffith was sitting right near us and I got him to sign a picture (inside the program) of him and Rodriquez in the ring when Griffith won the title. Emile signed it "My Best Fight, Emile Griffith".

My prize autograph is on the back page of the "New York Post" dated March 10, 1967. I was there with my brother-in-law to see the last fight at the "old" Garden (Ismael Laguna vs. Frankie Narvaez). Laguna won in a unanimous decision but many of Narvaez's fans didn't like the call and started a riot. We had ringside seats and hadda hightail it off the floor when bottles started coming flying down from the upper deck. Hell, they even threw the organ down from upstairs! ..... Anyway, after our escape from the Garden we walked across the street only to see Muhammad Ali in the parking garage. He was surrounded by four of the biggest bodyguards you ever saw but I fought my way through them and handed him the newspaper so he could sign it. The "Post" had a picture of him posing with Wilt Chamberlain (the caption of the picture had his name as Cassius Clay). He graciously signed the paper and smiled when he handed it back to me.

Boy, that took some cajones .

(How I ended up in a thread about boxing I haven't got a clue).

Boy, that took some cajones .[/b][/quote]I didn't think anything about it at the time (hell, I was only 16 and I WANTED that autograph badly) but my brother-in-law almost shit his pants. (He's 6'3" and those bodyguards made him look like a little kid).

I remember Laguna, but not the other guy.

He was a pretty good lightweight with some knockout power, right?

I think I once told the story in another thread abut how I stood on line all day and thru a cold night at MSG in December or January, to buy tickets for the first Ali-Frazier fight.

My picture was on the front page of the NY Times sports section the next morning, but you couldn't tell it was me because I had one of those wool masks on that covers the whole face along with a hat, and the collar of my Swedish Army Officer's Coat (remember those?) pulled all the way up.

I got two tickets at ringside for $100 each, and the day of the fight my friend and I got to the Garden about 2:00 in the afternoon and started wheeling and dealing tickets.

We sold the first two for a profit, bought and sold some more, and wound up seeing the fight from some $75 seats which were also great, and making a couple of hundred bucks each, besides.

I only saw one other fight "live" at the old Garden, though.

Because of the "kinship" I felt for Floyd Patterson after watching him train so often, I was there on February 1, 1965, when he took an impressive 12 round decision from George Chuvalo in a really good fight.

It was a 12-rounder because it was an "elimination" bout to see who got a mandatory title shot with Cassius Clay, and it led to the first fight between the two later in the year.

I remember sitting in the green seats, and paying about $7 or $8 for a ticket.

Did you roll down your window and say "Hi"? [/b][/quote]Joe was in a convertible and I was in the front passenger seat with my window down. My brother noticed him first, and I did say Hi, champ."

He smiled and nodded, the light changed and he drove off.

Come to think of it...he probably drove home, walked into his house and told his wife, "Some white kid on South Street thought I was Joe Frazier."

Griffith was one of my favorites. I saw him fight MANY times at the Garden and he always put on a great show. Rodriquez was a great fighter to watch, too.

A couple of random thoughts:

I was at the Garden on Feb 12th, 1965 to see Rodriquez fight "Hurricane" Carter (Rodriquez won a unanimous decision). My brother got us ringside seats and I got Rocky Graziano's autograph on the cover of the program. Emile Griffith was sitting right near us and I got him to sign a picture (inside the program) of him and Rodriquez in the ring when Griffith won the title. Emile signed it "My Best Fight, Emile Griffith".

My prize autograph is on the back page of the "New York Post" dated March 10, 1967. I was there with my brother-in-law to see the last fight at the "old" Garden (Ismael Laguna vs. Frankie Narvaez). Laguna won in a unanimous decision but many of Narvaez's fans didn't like the call and started a riot. We had ringside seats and hadda hightail it off the floor when bottles started coming flying down from the upper deck. Hell, they even threw the organ down from upstairs! ..... Anyway, after our escape from the Garden we walked across the street only to see Muhammad Ali in the parking garage. He was surrounded by four of the biggest bodyguards you ever saw but I fought my way through them and handed him the newspaper so he could sign it. The "Post" had a picture of him posing with Wilt Chamberlain (the caption of the picture had his name as Cassius Clay). He graciously signed the paper and smiled when he handed it back to me. [/b][/quote]That's a great story. Did you feel Laguna won the fight?

Robinson won my vote simply by the length,brevity & quality of his career!
They don't make boxers like they used to any more
Artruro Gatti has been my favourite fighter of recent years and he just got knocked out on Saturday night, possibly into retirement

Thankyou, Plawrence, for taking the time to post those links previously.

These are all great stories. I enjoy reading them very much, I find the history of boxing very interesting.

I'm not sure what word you're looking for, Yogi, but it sure ain't "brevity".

Sugar's carrer spanned more than 20 years and four decades, I believe.

After Ali, I'd say he was the greatest, pound-for-pound.

Did you watch it. I've always liked Gatti but I'll never forget the job Mayweather did on him, maybe a year or so ago. I thought Gatti would take Baldomir, the only difference early on was Baldomir's reach but he was in and quickly out. As soon as he stood up and traded punches, and I guess losing the plot of his gameplan, he was knocked all over the place. Baldomir being the natural size for that weight division helped in his favour too.

Gutted about Hatton now Gatti is off the cards? It's not a big interest and lucrative money fight but I don't see why, if Hatton stays at Welter, he shouldn't take on Baldomir.

I'm not sure what word you're looking for, Yogi, but it sure ain't "brevity".

Sugar's carrer spanned more than 20 years and four decades, I believe.

After Ali, I'd say he was the greatest, pound-for-pound. [/b][/quote]Yeah i know Plawrence :rolleyes:
I was thinking of a word meaning the opposite of brevity but it came out wrong...
Well it came out as brevity obviously
What can i say!
Even geniuses get it wrong sometimes

Did you watch it. I've always liked Gatti but I'll never forget the job Mayweather did on him, maybe a year or so ago. I thought Gatti would take Baldomir, the only difference early on was Baldomir's reach but he was in and quickly out. As soon as he stood up and traded punches, and I guess losing the plot of his gameplan, he was knocked all over the place. Baldomir being the natural size for that weight division helped in his favour too.

Gutted about Hatton now Gatti is off the cards? It's not a big interest and lucrative money fight but I don't see why, if Hatton stays at Welter, he shouldn't take on Baldomir. [/b][/quote]Gutted for Gatti Turi but he has had a great career and given us a lot of enjoyment along the way!
I would have loved to see him fight Hatton.
Baldomir looked like a giant did'nt he?
I have no clue who Hatton will fight next..
I would like to see him go against Mayweather. You have to fight the best to be the best eh?

I've never seen Hatton fight!

I would've liked to have seen his last one... although you could predict the outcome just by looking at the two of them at the press conference

Very true.

I can attest to that from my own first hand personal experience.

And if you or Turi wouldn't mind....

I have an idea from the context, but what exactly does it mean to be "gutted" by something?

I saw his last fight in the US on TV. He's a really tough cookie--very determined. Dunno if he's ready for Mayweather, but he'll give him a hell of a fight.

Very true.

I can attest to that from my own first hand personal experience.

And if you or Turi wouldn't mind....

I have an idea from the context, but what exactly does it mean to be "gutted" by something? [/b][/quote]In context "gutted" is UK slang for disappointed,albeit very disappointed!

I guess this is as good a place as any to post this clip. It's a recent interview with Jake LaMotta. He's 90 years old now, which is really unbelievable. If you're a fan of the history of the fight game, you'll enjoy this.

He's 90 now. For a guy who got hit as often as he did, he's pretty lucid--lotta 90-year-olds who never lifted a glove aren't as lucid. DeNiro spent a lot of time with him making "Raging Bull." Now I see where he got the voice he used at the end, when he was doing the nightclub bit.

I never saw LaMotta fight when I was a kid. But that's probably because he fought a lot outside NYC, and fights on TV in that era never showed fights outside NYC.

What's amazing is that ill-tempered people rarely live that long (stress, blood pressure, not to mention having someone that you beat up shoot you ).

Well, what was it that Billy Joel sang, "Only the good die young"?

Amazing! I had forgotten that Jake LaMotta was still with us.

On a somewhat sadder note, tonight on the news I heard that Joe Frazier was diagnosed with liver cancer five weeks ago and is now receiving hospice care. Doctors have not yet told him how long he has to live.

For someone of my generation, the Ali/Frazier fights pretty much summed up what boxing was all about: Two fine athletes with incredible heart, giving it their all. I am truly saddened to hear the news about Joe Frazier's condition.

Signor V.

My mom is a few years younger than LaMotta, but they were from the same neighborhood and she knew him and his brother. She said they were pigs, though.

I heard about Frazier today, too, and it was very sad news.

That is awful news about Frazier. I saw the first Frazier/Ali fight in a movie theater in Brooklyn. Great bout!

I've always heard the same thing, Babe. Pretty much all of the guys from that generation are gone. But of the old timers from Pelham Parkway that knew him, they all said the same thing: That the LaMottas were trashy, low rent people, even after they made some money.

I mean, if you've read the book, LaMotta very casually and matter of factly admits to having raped at least two women. Of course he never referred to it as rape, but just read his description of what happened.

They used to show up at the CYO dances at Immaculate sometimes. And they were definitely trash.

"Smokin" Joe, from a time when the public actually gave a fuck (and most importantly knew) who was the champion.

I bet you more kids now can name the current UFC champion.

Muhammed Ali is my favorite. But I think Lennox Lewis would easily defeat almost any other listed in the poll. He "owned" Mike Tyson.

Ali was a great one, my favorite though is George Foreman and of course Rocky Marciano, just because he was a paisan and great.

What happened to great heavy weight boxers? All the greats are gone and now there's nobody people are into watching. The old guys were great.

Heard he was a racist, but Larry Holmes was good too.

There are still greats around, but their in lower weight classes, the majority of great heavy weights in the golden age were black, now those physically gifted guys play NFL or basketball, boxing is a tougher game than any to make it in.

Ali was at his best in 1965-1967. You already saw some signs of Parkison when he made a comeback in the 1970s. His was more stiff in his posture when he fought against Joe Frazier (may he rest in peace) and George Foreman.

Ali really did the impossible by defeating Foreman in 1974. I think that fight is the most epic in the entire history of mankind. I'm serious. George Foreman would never be the same after this fight. He was a changed man.

He absolutely was a changed man. Maybe it was the defeat that showed him that he needed to gain 100lbs and become likable or now one would buy his grills.

This thread inspired me to watch "The rumble in the jungle" last night, two great fighters of their day and arguably the greatest boxers of all time. The heavyweight division is not the same anymore and i think there hasn't been any "great" fighters since Tyson and Lennox Lewis.

Greatest of all time would have to go to Walker Smith AKA Sugar Ray Robinson. The epitome of the sweet science and completely ruled the Welterweight and middleweight divisions in his prime. Even bounced back to regain world titles 5 times after losses etc. Almost won a light heavyweight world title as well before succumbing to the heat. There would be no Ali without pioneers like Robinson. Complete package.

Robinson was tops, the best "pound-for pound" fighter ever. But his using the heat as an excuse for losing the Joey Maxim fight always bothered me just a little bit. Like it wasn't just as hot in that ring for Maxim?

Hey PB, how you doing?

I believe it was a legit excuse, if you watch the fight, Robinson was boxing well and was controlling the fight with great straights and good ring generalship. The judges all had him ahead before he couldn't continue any longer. In this case I just reckon the heat affected Ray more. You even see him stumble to the corner and he actually went to hospital after the fight and spent weeks in bed sick afterward.