"Major Incident" in London

A series of explosions on the London Underground. Fatalities reported

Initial reports suggested electrical failure but reports now of an explosion on a London Bus...

the day after London awarded 2012 Olympics...something to do with G8...Al Quaeda...or indeed an electrical fault???

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4659093.stm

God, it's terrible!

It was first thought to be a "power surge" on the underground (metro) network, but then three busses were ripped apart by blasts.

Have got some friends in London, hope they were as lazy as me and overslept...

This looks pretty bad. CNN is reporting there may have been nine explosions (three above ground on buses, and six below ground on trains).

I hope all our London members and their families are well!

Hear Hear SC..if memory serves me BellaMafiaUK and Family Honour are Londoners??

My gut reaction is that this is not an electrical problem due to the timing of the incident.

The government have stated it's a clear coordinated terrorist attack.

The amount of explosions are still unclear and it sounds like there's still risks of more. Fuck knows what's going on.

Senza, FH is up north in Yorkshire somewhere. But we do have a number of Londoners here.

Assuming the reports of explosions both ABOVE and BELOW ground are true it'd be unrealistic to believe its an electrical problem.

The tv news reports here are showing hundreds of people walking through the streets (apparently after being evacuated from the underground) and more than a few are injured and/or bloody.

The first explosion was reported at 08:49am...that's roughly the same time as 9/11??

It's fairly clear this was to attack people on the way to work. Also probably timed to coincide with the G8 meeting in Scotland and also Britain became President of EU on 1st July.

After the euphoria of Live8 on Saturday and London winning 2012 Olympics yesterday...the perpatrators just don't care about anything do they??

I'd be very surprised if there ends up being a tie-in with the Olympics. This whole thing has apparently been well orchestrated and almost was certainly planned long before the announcement of London getting the Olympic games.

I'd be very surprised if there ends up being a tie-in with the Olympics. This whole thing has apparently been well orchestrated and almost was certainly planned long before the announcement of London getting the Olympic games. [/b][/quote]No I don't think it's tied in with 2012 either SC...I suppose my point was that a "feel good" factor can be cruelly wiped away in one fell swoop. More tied with G8 probably.

I'm fine, fortunately. Two of the bombs were planted in stations which I pass through on my way in on the underground, right at the time it was happening. They stopped us getting off the train at Kings Cross station, and when I got off at Victoria station to change lines, they told everyone it was an electrical fault and to leave the station and get a bus. It was mayhem, but no-one suspected anything, we just thought it was the usual London Transport mess. I got a bus from Victoria to Kensington where I work, and then I found out that there'd been explosions, they said due to a Power Surge. Then the reports came through that there had been explosions on buses too, so we knew then that it was terrorists. I was calling my fiancé like mad on his mobile phone but couldn't get through....I was panicking like mad until he called back to say he's ok. Its difficult to get through to anyone now as most of the mobile phone networks in central London have gone down. The police are telling people to stay indoors, but I'm panicking now...I just want to go home!!

Reports are coming through its Al-Queeda, what a surprise. These bastards make me sick!!

I've checked some of Fox's coverage, they're usually pretty good with UK issues because of their alliance with Sky News, but in the alerts they state an Israeli source claims the UK knew about the attacks prior.

Blair to speak in only a few minutes.

Bella - We're hearing (here in the U.S.) that London's transportation system has been virtually shut down. For the time being you should probably stay at work.

We've also heard about the cellphone lines being bogged down, and now they're reporting that the landline phones are getting overloaded as well.

Hang in there!!!!

I heard that here, too, Turi. One of the networks reported that Scotland Yard called the Israeli government shortly before the first explosions to warn them that there'd be a terrorist attack in London.

I know, SC, but I can't help panicking a bit!! I know theres no way of getting home, but I'd be happy to walk if they let me out! You're right, though, I'll just have to sit tight for now. Thanks for the updates and advice

Blair has made his speech and his has got everyone on alert.

I just now woke up and heard this horrible news. I immediately thought of our UK friends here. I'm so sorry and my thoughts and prayers are with all of you.

I heard at least 7 explosions. How many deaths/injuries? Has that been confirmed and that it was Al Queada????

Please check in and keep us posted. Of course I don't need to encourage you all to "stay alert".

Be safe!

TIS

It's not yet confirmed who orchestrated the attacks but it sounds like a few seperate groups are claiming it. It's likely to be Al Queada though.

Thanks, TIS, its good to know our friends in the US are thinking of us.

There have been 2 reported fatalities so far, and many many injuries.

Al-Queada's involvement hasn't been confirmed as yet, but thats what the unconfirmed reports are saying.

I have not had my tv or computer on for the past 3 days, and I wake up and hear this on the news. I feel like I woke up in the twilight zone. I couldn't imagine why London would be attacked. I think I heard on CNN that Blair suspects it's to take focus off the G8 summit.

My thoughts are with all our friends in the UK. Let's pray for a speeding recovery for the hundreds who were injured.

They have the count now as 45 dead up to 1000 injured, and it's expected to rise. UGGHH!

I've been switching between CNN, BBCNews, and Fox. It seems CNN is giving the best overall at this point. It just came across the wire that Al Qaeda Europe has claimed responsibility for these attacks.

I hope that our BB UK members will continue to check in an let us know they are okay?

According to this article, and although it hasn't been confirmed yet that it was Al Queda. This group also warned Italy & Denmark of attacks.


web page

TIS

TIS, I have in fact this horrible feeling next time we'll be Italy's turn!

Oh, this is not difficult to understand, 'cause England is the most devoted and committed US ally in Iraq!

Me too. I usually shut my ma's TV off a night before I go to sleep because it keeps me up, but she was watching it so I just turned down the volume. I woke up to go to the bathroom and give her a kiss while she slept and the 'Today' show was on with this horrible news. Immediately I thought it was tied to the 2012 Olympics but it appears I was wrong

Lavinia,

I'm sure your government is on high alert, which at the very least will make all the citizens cautious. It's so easy to say be alert and on guard, I know. However, I wouldn't know what else to do. We'll hear more as this unfolds I'm sure. What a different world we live in.


TIS

We could sit here all day and try to figure out the motives behind these attacks, but what's the point? These terrorists have no cause, their motive is fear. It astounds me how people can misinterpret a religion so much. How the hell do these people honestly think they're going to Heaven for the murder of innocent people? Have they mistaked Allah for Satan, because the only place they're going is to Hell.

This is sad, and unfortunate, for two reasons.

1) The lives of these people were taken so violently. To quote The Godfather "This is so unfortunate, so unnecessary." My heart and prayers go out to their families.

2) The War on Terrorism is that much further from being over.

God bless their souls.

I know it, but how can you be cautious when you get on a bus to go to work as you usually do every morning and someone puts a bomb on it? Yet this is something we must learn to live with. Our governments tell us not to be afraid, but do they ever get a bus or a train or a metro? The truth is we are so VULNERABLE!

Never thought it wasn't.

This is sickening.

Bella Mafia - You still online with us? Have you been able to get in touch with your family?

I had to evacuate at Kings Cross

More bad news. Are all of our Englishmen ok?

my hopes and prayers go to anyone affected (in anyway) to the most definite terrorist attacks.

I joined the army (usa) days after the 9/11 attacks. i lived in brooklyn, but moved out almost 2 weeks after the attack.

the rumors as for al quieda / isreali taking claim. we'll never know. either one of those groups would take claim just for the glory of their twisted minds. blair put it best
"we are a world of humanity, and the people who did this show no love for humanity."

I do hope for the best of anyone from the UK, and for that matter anyone in the world that might of been affected by any act of terrorism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings

08:51: Initial reports of an incident between Liverpool Street and Aldgate East tube stations, either an explosion or a collision between trains. The reports from the two stations were initially thought to relate to two separate incidents.
08:56: Explosion on train between Kings' Cross and Russell Square. Eyewitnesses report explosion appeared to come from outside the train.
09:17: Explosion on train at Edgware Road station.
09:28: Tube operator Metronet says the incident was caused by some sort of power surge.
09:33: Reports of an incident at Edgware Road tube station. Reports that passengers on a train hit by an explosion attempted to break windows with umbrellas in order to escape.
09:46: British Transport Police announce there had been more explosions at Kings' Cross, Old Street, Moorgate, and Russell Square.
09:47: Explosion on bus at Upper Woburn Place/Tavistock Square. Fatalities, but number not yet known.
09:49: Whole London Underground system shut down.
10:00: National Grid announce there had been no problem with power surges.
10:40: First report of fatalities, government source speaks of 20 dead.
11:08: Bus services suspended across central London.
11:10: Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair confirms fears that it is a co-ordinated terror attack, but appeals for calm, asking people not to travel to London or make unnecessary calls to the emergency services.
12:00: Prime Minister Tony Blair speaks out on the incident, calling the attacks a coordinated series of "barbaric" terrorist attacks.

That's terrible! I hope all members from the UK and their families are safe.

Amen to that bro'!
This News are sick. Poor innocent people.

You still in the Army?

Latest on casualties

33 confirmed dead in the three Tube (underground) bombings

A number killed on the bus but not yet clear how many (some unconfirmed sources say 8...this may have been a suicide attack)

45 people described as "critical".

300 with other injuries.

Hopefully some "law abiding citizens" in Italy will prevent anything from happening there.

A US emergency telephone line has been set up for missing Americans on 1-888-407-4747.

BLOOD DONOR SERVICE
There is a hotline number for anyone who wishes to donate blood: 0845 7711711.

CASUALTY HOTLINE
The number is: 0870 1566 344

for other info: http://www.livejournal.com/community/london_070705/

Anyone heard from Capo?

You still in the Army? [/b][/quote]sure am, posted in germany now, served my time in iraq a few monthes ago for a year.

God bless (and welcome to the boards).

Thank you

Why is anyone surprised?

We knew it was quite possibly coming, but I guess today is our worst nightmare. Blair must have wanted to die when he heard the news. We've been preparing for something like this ever since 9/11 and the Madrid bombs but you never expect someone to actually come in and say "Turn on the tv. They've bombed King's Cross."

I'm in the north so we're far from the danger zone (touch wood) but I have a cousin in London that I still haven't heard from and many friends who I've just managed to get in touch with.
My friend Helen's flatmate takes that bus to work, but he missed it this morning. My other friend Sorcha's flatmate had an early meeting, or he would have been on taking the tube through Aldergate when the bomb went off. 33 confirmed deaths so far, but Scotland Yard aren't yet releasing figures for the deaths on the double decker bus.

Thanks for your solidarity and sympathy. I just can't bear to think of all the households getting visits from the police tonight.

These stupid terrorists manage to divert the world attention every now and then from significant matters towards fear, confusion, pointless destruction and resulting warfare

Condolances to you all. My first thought was the Olympics, but experts now say that it's unlikely that the Olympics could have something to do with it.

Condolences to our UK friends in this awful time. Now they are claiming that either Denmark or Italy is next. Its just a matter of time before they strike again here. Blair looked devastated, and for those of you who know how I feel about Bush, I must say he was eloquent today.

God bless all the victims and their families. This is so sad. Also, right after taking claim for this, it seems that Al Qaeda took claim for this and then claimed that they have the missing Navy SEAL and plan to execute him. It's just too horrendous for words, isn't it?

I have been watching this on tv all morning. I am just absolutely sick to my stomach over it. RIP to those who have been killed.

God I hope I can forget this day.

This is terrible...

All the BB UK members: Thanks for checking in with us and giving us updates on this, and thank God y'all are okay! My thoughts and prayers are with you.

God bless the victims of this attack. May those who have died RIP, and may those who are injured make a good recovery.

This is all just incredible and so very sad. I just pray that everyone keeps safe.

In which city? Around Bagdad?

No but unless he's taken a random trip to London he should be alright. He's further north from London than I am.

You know I am actually old enough to remember the last few times England has been the victim of terrorism. But it doesn't matter how many times you are hit or how dangerous another threat is, hearing about new attacks on your countrymen is still pretty shocking.

What really annoys me about this whole ordeal is that there's no closure. You can neutralise armed forces. You can even stop a few dodgy characters with homemade bombs, but it's always there in the back of your mind some nutters are constructing bombs. No matter how many busts there are there's still no closure.

At work I heard a witnesses account of the situation on the radio. He couldn't believe how lucky he was that he got off at his bus stop then a few seconds later seeing it explode.

No but unless he's taken a random trip to London he should be alright. He's further north from London than I am. [/b][/quote]He just posted in another thread. I think he is online now.

My prayers and a wish for Godspeed for my U.K. comrades, the victims, and the families involved. We'll be remembering y'all.

God Bless our friends the British. God bless the families that lost someone in these evil attacks. God bless the victims.

DS

Tony, I hope you are okay. It must have been such a shock for you to be in London when this happened. I'm just glad you are safe and sound.

I am astounded. I cannot believe that Al Quaeda have flaunted their stupidity quite so spectacularly. I am struggling to realise that they have done this during the G8 summit - a meeting which addresses the injustices and inequalities of the world, and which calls on westerners to redistribute wealth to those dying of poverty. Al Quaeda's rationale for anti-american and anti-western feeling was always that capitalism is corrupt, our bank accounts come before our moral values, and that we are resisting the message of Islam.
How many Muslims have Al Quaeda massacred in the name of Islam?
How many people across the world gave their heart and soul to the Live 8 events, only to find the public feeling and media focus suddenly redirected (rightly so) onto London's suffering?
How much more progress could the G8 have made if they did not have to deal with the aftermath of this latest terrorism?

I could never, ever condone terrorism - however, until today I always thought that it was at least based upon some consistent complaint, however misguided. Now I see the horrifying truth, that this is all madness. Al Quaeda is mad, and vicious. And very very stupid.

Sorry for the rant everyone but it's the weirdest atmosphere over here at the moment. Glad to hear Turi, Capo and everyone are safe.

I am so sad at this,i have friends in london and have no way of reaching them as im 12,000 miles away ,i knew this was going to happen,it was just a matter of time.Luckerley my family 100 miles away.

I glad everybody else on the boards from london is OK

Amen man. I dont want to start anything political here, but I completely agree, and I hope others around the world are as enlightened by this horrible day as you are.

Amen man. I dont want to start anything political here, but I completely agree, and I hope others around the world are as enlightened by this horrible day as you are. [/b][/quote]This is why we must continue the fight against terrorism. We have to hunt them down and bring them all to justice.

DS

I just received a call from Don Cardi, who is on a holiday with his family. He wanted to make sure our UK friends were ok, and asked that I posted for him, and let you all know that his thoughts and prayers are with you. Like everyone else, he was shocked and saddened by this tragedy. If anyone knows the full terror of this kind of thing, it's surely him.

I'm sure you'll be hearing from him soon.

TIS

Btw, have all of the UKers been accounted for here on the BB?????

Sad day for our British members here at BB.NET. The only thing I can say in comfort is that I'm glad London didn't suffer as much damage, in terms of structurally and in bodies, as did NYC and D.C. back in 2001.

Comparison of 9/11, London Attacks

A comparison of the timelines for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in New York and Washington, and Thursday's bombings in London. Times listed are local; London is five hours ahead of Eastern Daylight Time.


Sept. 11, 2001

8:46 a.m. — Flight 11 hits the World Trade Center's north tower.

9:03 a.m. — Flight 175 crashes into the south tower of the World Trade Center.

9:37 a.m. — Flight 77 hits the Pentagon.

10:03 a.m. — United 93 crashes in Pennsylvania, 125 miles from Washington.

July 7, 2005

8:51 a.m. — London Underground train explodes 100 yards into a tunnel near the financial district.

8:56 a.m. — Explosion near the King's Cross station in north London.

9:17 a.m. — Explosion near Edgware Road station.

9:47 a.m. — Double-decker bus explodes near Tavistock Square.

God bless all the victims, and the families of the victims of this cowardly attack.

I don't understand what you mean. Would you please explain it to me?

Sorry, but.... point being? What, they were both in the morning? :p

My prayers are with the good people of the UK for a swift recovery in body, mind and spirit. Thanks to our UK paisani for checking in.

I really hope this incident won't affect the great job G8 (hopefully) will do for Africa and poverty in general. Please don't let the fear of terrorism ruin our lifes.

I learned today someone asked Rudy Giuliani what was the best way to deal with the aftermath of the 9/11 conflicts and he basically said to return to normality ASAP. Well that is what London has been doing today giving a big FUCK YOU to terrorism. Whilst everything can't be back to normal just by the tapping of shoes Londoners are sure as hell trying their best.

I guess this is putting the term, "The British stiff upper lip" to good use. Way to go I say. Someone on one of the cable newscasters had a headline something to the fact, "Is this the best you could do? We are not impressed." Not to belittle or diminish the severity of it. But just to stress that Britain has been through so much, be it with the IRA, that they've survived, and they will survive this too.

Yeah you're right Beth. I don't even like London but if I get reason to go any time soon I'll be there.

It will take more than some terrorist low lifes to break London/the UK/ the States/ the Free World!
We will not be beaten by these "people"..
I have friends & family in London & thankfully everyone is OK!
My thoughts are with those who have lost loved ones..& those who have been hurt!
God Bless them all!

I heard that some people were still trapped underground. Have they gotten out yet!?

This just came across on MSNBC website. I sure hope it turns out to be a false alarm.

web page


TIS

Thank you [/b][/quote]whenever someone says that, i never know quite how to respond. but your welcome. all i do is what im told.

God bless (and welcome to the boards). [/b][/quote]thankyou very much. its about time I found a group of people that have such a love for the godfather, and/or other mafia related medias.

In which city? Around Bagdad? [/b][/quote]yes sorta, north of baghdad actually. I was in baqubah, then in november of 04 we were in fallujah.

but baqubah is about 30k north of baghad, in the sunni triangle

Thank you for making the post for me TIS.

I just got home this evening and I am really glad to see that our U.K. Friends are all ok! I was really worried about the great members from this board that live in the U.K.

May GOD bless you all and protect you all from any more of these horrendous attacks. My heart goes out to you all.


Don Cardi

Sorry for not replying sooner, they let us leave work early and I ended up walking a few miles accross London to a safe point where my dad picked me up in his car. We then had to wait a while until we could get a signal on our mobiles before I could reach my fiancé, then we ended up driving back into the centre to pick him up.

I managed to check that all other friends/family were ok, fortunately no-one I know seems to have been hurt.

My heart goes out to all those who have lost loved ones, and to those who are facing an agonising wait until the bodies can be identified.

Yesterday we had a ceremony to mark 60 years since WW2 ended, and I think that was very fitting - we didn't back down then and we won't now. Its Monday morning now and everyone is back at work, it'll take more than a bunch of fanatical religious halfwits to bring this country down.

Don Cardi

From CNN.com

LONDON, England -- British police said on Tuesday they believed it was "very likely" that at least one of the bombers responsible for last week's terrorist attacks in London died in the explosion near Aldgate station.

Deputy Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke, head of the Anti-Terrorist Branch, told a news conference officers were trying to establish whether four men suspected of carrying out the bombings had all been killed.

One man has been arrested and six arrest warrants issued following a series of raids around Leeds in West Yorkshire, 310 kilometers (190 miles) north of London, in connection with the investigation, Clarke said.

Police had forensic evidence linking the four men -- three from West Yorkshire -- to the scenes of all four of last Thursday's bomb blasts on the underground and bus networks, he added.

One of the men from West Yorkshire had been reported missing by his family. Property belonging to him had been found at the site of the Tavistock Square bus blast.

Clarke said that all four had arrived in London by train at King's Cross station on the morning of the attacks.

British army bomb disposal experts earlier carried out a controlled explosion to gain access to a house in the Hyde Park area of the city.

Hundreds of residents from surrounding streets had to be evacuated as armed police took up position outside the house.

Police also raided five other houses in the Leeds area and closed Luton railway station to recover a vehicle suspected of being involved in the attacks.

West Yorkshire Police said that Metropolitan Police detectives backed by local officers had mounted a "pre-planned, intelligence-led operation."

Clark confirmed that material had been seized and that measures had been taken to prevent any danger to the public.

Meanwhile Bedfordshire police said they had closed Luton railway station, 50 kilometers (30 miles) north of London, to recover a car suspected of being involved in the attacks.

"Police believe the vehicle may be connected to the terrorist attacks in London on July 7 and will be examined in the car park for safety reasons before being taken away to a secure location," police said in a statement.

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair told BBC radio the raids were "directly connected" with Thursday's bomb blasts which killed at least 52 people.

He told BBC radio: "There have been a series of searches carried out in Yorkshire. Those searches are still going on. There's very little else I can say at the moment, but this activity is directly connected to the outrages on Thursday."

Tuesday's raids were the first reported operation in a crime investigation described by British Prime Minister Tony Blair as "among the most vigorous and intense that this country has ever seen."

"We will pursue those responsible -- not just the perpetrators, but the planners of this outrage, wherever they are. And we will not rest until they are identified and, as far as humanly possible, brought to justice," Blair told the House of Commons on Monday.

Blair and other relevant ministers were being kept informed of Tuesday's operation, the Prime Minister's official spokesman told PA.

Don Cardi

Hey, sorry for not replying earlier, i'm fine, it's all very sad indeed, hearing stories of the poor people who luckily survived on the tubes and the bus and seeing people looking for their loved one's who could be alive

hopefully we'll fully recover from this and tighten up, show these arseholes that they aren't gonna win.

You all will go on with your lives, no question about it! It's what you HAVE to do. You'll never forget it, but you will go on. That is one of the ways to defeat terror. It's a damn shame that others around the world don't "get it" the way that Bush and Blair do when it comes to fighting terroists and terrorism.

These bastards must be destroyed, no matter what the cost. And thankfully people like Bush and Blair understand this. Thankfully Bush and Blair are concerned about the future of our children and grandchildren when it comes to terrorism and tyranny! Because if we do not fight terrorists and countries that harbor, support or practice tyranny, then these motherF**kers will keep on bombing and killing people around the world.

Bottm line is that they are out to destroy the "infidels" :rolleyes: , and the hate that they harbor is just plain evil. Think about it, here are people, supposedly human, who teach their own children to hate and kill other human beings. This is exactly why democracizing the middle eastern area of the world is extremely important in this war on terror. If the good people of that region of the world are made to see that they do have the right and the opportunity to live freely, hopefully they will realize that the hate that their dictators and religious fantatics have displayed to them as a normal way of life is really not the way life should be. Yes, I will say it again and again, when it comes to understanding what has to be done to stop this insanity and save the future for our children, Bush and Blair are definately the right men for the job.

I am glad to hear that you are ok. It still breaks my heart and at the same time angers me when I see those images of how your great country was blindsided and attacked. Think about it: Two great nations that try to spread freedom and democracy, both sneakily attacked by those who despise freedom and democracy!

Sneaky, coward scumbag terrorists! I would give anything to have a face to face fist fight with just one of them. But it would never happen, because they are not brave enough to go face to face!

May your country and mine always stand side by side in both defending and spreading democracy around the world!

Here is a link to a timeline of plots and attacks carried out by Al Quaida:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4677978/

Don Cardi

I understand where you are coming from and as this war continues to go on I am starting to agree with you that these terrorists need to be taken out, but my question is, how do you do it? Sure, you can take out all the head men right now but what about the next generation? As you've described these a$$holes teach their children their own hate and beliefs. This is a religion to these people and a religion is one of the hardest things to probably change about a person. The scary thing about this war is that for every 1 terrorist you capture or kill, another 1 will just take his place because he or she was brought up to believe that what they are doing is "right." Do you see where I'm coming from? It's a vicious cycle that I don't know has an end to it

The answer that you are looking for is right in the post that I made which you quoted.

I believe that one of the most strategic moves that could be made in this fight on the war on terror is to try and educate and democratize the people of that region so that as time goes on and new generations are born they will KNOW that the way of of life is not to hate and kill.

Yes, this is a tough war and a diffucult one to one for the reasons that you have brought up, but it is not impossible and the one thing that we must remain steadfast in is the democratization and education of the Iraqi people.

WHEN we are successful there I believe that the good people of the same cutures and in the surrounding areas of that region will begin to thirst for the same freedoms and see that terrorism is NOT a religious way of life as they have been taught throughout the years.

The alliance MUST stay the course.

And as you've said yourself, catching the leaders will not stop terrorism. That is why I get so disgusted when I hear the critics say that "we haven't caught Bin Laden but we are in Iraq." Believe me, I would love for us to catch Bin Laden and have him brought to justice. But if anyone believes that catching Bin Laden will win the war on terror, then they are thinking very foolishly.

Catching these terrorists is very important. But educating and democracizing the people of that region is just as important and may be even more important in our fight to defeat terrorism and fanatacism.


"If there must be trouble then let it be in my day, so that my children shall know peace." - Thomas Paine


Don Cardi

Your solution sounds reasonable and easy enough however that will take time and I do not know how long the President (whoever it is after Bush), the media, or the American people will have the patience to see this thing through. You're talking about generations upon generations having to be 'rehibilitated' not to mention that I feel there will also be those "extremists" who break away from the infidels to destroy us. I mean, we'd literally have to change the culture and world that those people live in over there and that's a very hard thing to do. You look at Palestinians and Jews who have been fighting each other since Christ came to this Earth and they show no signs of stopping anytime soon. So how can we expect to change their ways of thinking if they haven't even begin to stop fighting their "constant" enemy?

As for bin Laden, I heard awhile ago and I still somewhat believe this will happen. But I heard that the next attack carried out on American soil will have bin Laden being apart of it to die as a 'martyr.' That way he can "lead by example" as well as being able to gloat about evading the U.S. for almost 4 years now.

BTW, I want you to know that I'm not trying to fight with you or be difficult. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from more

No disrespect intended, but there is no way would bin Laden ever volunteer on a suicide mission unless he was terminally ill. Even then I seriously doubt he would. The reason? He's too much of a coward to do that. His M.O. is to use his family's money and entice the poor, easily manipulated, and angry Muslims and train them to be radical extremist killers.

The only way I envison OBL taking his own life is if he's surrounded and about to be captured. And if by killing himself could also bring harm to some so-called "infidels" then he might do it.

Related to the London bombing, I found it really discouraging that 4 British people are allegedly behind last week's attacks.
Blair shocked \'bombers\' were British

I know that you are not trying to fight with me. It is obvious that you would like a solution as much as I do.

As for it taking years to do, well if that is the case then so be it! We have NO CHOICE. If it takes years to do and means that in years to come my children and grandchildren can live in a better world, then I am willing to sacrafice my lifetime for the betterment of their future!

And anyway if it does takes years to do and is not easy to do, does that mean we just say, " Aw screw it, it'll take too many years to defeat these extremists and educate them, let the next generation worry about it?" It has to start sometime and somewhere and the time is now and the somewhere is exactly where we are.

As for Bin Laden going on a mission himself, where did you get that kind of information from? I am sincerely curous to know.


Don Cardi

As for bin Laden I read it a long time ago and I think it was just somebody's opinion or "rumor." But I happen to think it's not that far fetched.

Again I'm not against educating these people but do you think this will be just another 'puppet' government that we set up? Also, again, the next President might not have the same thought process and interest in this war and when he is elected might just pull out our troops and say 'aw, screw em." My original question that I was trying to get to was what if that sceniro happens!? What are we to do then??

I don't think that we are setting up a puppet government. I do think that we are helping to set up a government that will be somewhat cooperative with the rest of the world. Look, a democratic governement is way better than a dictatorship anyday, no matter how many ways you slice it.

As for the scenerio that you have brought up, well that is exactly the reason that as voters we need to scrutinize the candidates and vote accordingly. There is no question that the next president of the USA can decided to cut and run. And without starting any debates or arguements, and in just voicing my own feelings and opinions, I believe that if John Kerry had been elected President, he would have been the type to say " the hell with this, let's pull out." And for this exact reason I am sincerely glad that Bush is the president. If you agree with Bush's policies or not, the bottom line is that once he sets his eyes on something and decides to take a course of action, he stays the course and does not crumble under the political pressure from the objectionists.

And under the current situation that my country and our world is in with regards to fighting terrorism, etc. I am glad that I have a leader who is not afraid to protect the citizens of America and it's allies and will not falter under the pressure from those who just don't seem to get this whole thing.

It sickened me last week when the London Bombings took place and then all over the news the same people who only the day before were bashing the war on terror and denouncing the actions of America and it's allies, were suddenly screaming for action against terrorism and basically admitted that they had fallen back to sleep since the Sept. 11th attacks. No one should ever need that type of wakeup call in their lives.

But unfortunately many of the politicians in office, republican and democrat, have decided that they should politicize all that's happened in the world in the past few years for their own political gain. That is a shame and those kind of people and politicians are the worst kind of enemies because with their political rhetoric they embolden our enemies and put us all in harms way.

If you research the political uprising that took place during the Vietnam war, you may be surprised to find out that the North Vietnamese government said themselves that one of the main reasons that they were confident that they would win that war was becasue they knew that America's own politicians and press were denouncing the actions of the soldiers. They knew that they were winning the war right inside America itself.

That is exactly what is going on right here and now when Senators and Congresswoman PUBLICALLY call The Commander In Cheif Of their own nation, during a time of war, a crucial war that may determine the future of our country, a miserable failure and a liar, etc. The enemy feeds off of this and sees that they can win the war right in the American media.

The politicians from BOTH sides need to stop trying to control this war politically and instead allow the Generals nd The Commanders, who are trained to do this, fight this war as they see fit.

People in political power and in the media need to wake up and see that this is not a political game, this is very serious life threatening stuff, and that they need to suport our soldiers and support this war on terrorism and throw out the political bullshit once and for all.


Don Cardi

Yeah they were British 'Citizens', they drove down from leeds and then got a train to kings cross station from Luton, Leeds is less than 200 miles away from where I live aswell, which is very scary and also very sickening that such people that were the same nationality were plotting such evil things and did such barberic acts, there is now a full investigation going into the terrorists and who are their contacts etc, going through every detail of the now identified terrorists.

I see where you're coming from with everyone needs to be on the same side but that's the beauty of America. If you don't feel a certain way that others do, you have the freedom to express your views. I know many people feel passionate about this war and feel it's a good thing (such as yourself) but others who believe they HAVE to publicy denounce the war and cannot sit by ideally and do nothing. I agree that we should all support the troops no matter what. At the beginning I was always for the troops whether or not I was for the war because THEY are the ones over their busting their a$$es. But again, I don't think it would be a good idea if everyone just sat back and had 'groupthink' in this country about the war. That can be a very dangerous trap to fall into and sometimes you need criticism to perform or rethink things better. Sorry I don't have more time to respond but I will tomorrow when I get to work.

I am not saying that people are not entitled to their opinions and views when it comes to war and politics. We all have the right to express our feelings and opinions about such things. But there is a difference in voicing an opinion and making attacks and unfounded accusations. The personal attacks, lies and false accusations against our leaders, made for political gain, are what I am talking about. Those actions are what hurt us in fighting a war like this one.

There is no reason for a senator of this country to come out in public and state that we cannot win this war because our leader is a miserable failure. That is a personal attack and it also undermines the soldier who is out there fighting for us.

Want to debate the way things are being handled in the senate, in congress, etc. ? That's fine and that is what this country is built on. But there is no reason for an elected official to bash our President and undermine our troops just for personal political gain, and we all know that many politicians from BOTH sides do these things not out of real concern for our country, but do do it for their own political agendas!


Don Cardi

But, DC, that is the beauty of politics. The politicians are so concerned with being re-elected, or elected to a higher office, that they will make political hay over ANYTHING. They were quite cautious in the aftermath of September 11th, but after awhile, they started to let go. I think the first was Cuomo when he was campaigning as governor of NY. He openly criticized Pataki and said that all he had done in those days and months following the attack was hold Giuliani's coat for him, or words to that effect. It boomeranged right back and hit him in the a**.

Since that time, as people have become unhappy with the war, and the flag-waving has stopped (remember all the flags you saw in the fall of 2001? How many do you see now), politicians have cautiously tested the waters. In the Northeast, where the voters are mostly democrats, you can probably get away with it more now. Although I know that words of dissent anger you PERSONALLY, you have to see that a politician only looks towards their next term in office. They literally begin fundraising for the next campaign their first day in office. They always have their eyes on the prize.

Or the "ugliness" of politics! I guess it depends on one's point of view.

Basically you have confirmed exactly what I have been saying in my oher posts above : They are only concerned about getting re-elected. And that is a disgrace. It's the way it is, but still a disgrace.

The american people as a whole should all take words of dissent used by any politician, from the left or the right, for their own political gain, personally. All of the people need to see that many of these so called representatives are only looking towards their next term in office and must remember this when voting time rolls around. Bottom line is that many, not all, really couldn't give a damn about the people. They just want to stay career politicians.

It's not personal, it's strictly business.


Don Cardi

Found this

"Police Identify Four Bombers in London Attacks
Authorities Search For Elusive Fifth Suspect
By BETH GARDINER, AP

LONDON (July 14) - Police believe they have identified all four suicide bombers who carried out the deadly attacks on London subway trains and a bus last week, the city's police chief said Thursday.

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair told the Foreign Press Association that police believe "that we know who the four people carrying the bombs were ... and we believe they are all dead.''

"We are as certain as we can be that four people were killed and they were the four people carrying bombs,'' Blair said.

His comments were the first public confirmation from police that the July 7 attackers were suicide bombers. Bombs exploded on three subway trains and a double-decker bus, killing at least 53 people, including the attackers.

Peter Clarke, head of the Metropolitan Police anti-terrorist branch, on Thursday identified the suspected suicide bomber who blew up the double-decker bus, killing 13 people, as Hasib Hussain, 18. Clarke also said Shahzad Tanweer, 22, was responsible for attacking a subway train between the Liverpool Street and Aldgate stations. Both are Britons of Pakistani descent.

News reports have identified the other two as Mohammed Sidique Khan, 30, another Briton of Pakistani descent, and Lindsey Germaine, a Jamaican-born Briton.

Blair declined to comment on those reports, and he would not say how many suspects are being sought.

"We don't know if there is a fifth man, or a sixth man, a seventh man,'' he said, but added that police were trying to determine who organized the attack.

Two claims of responsibility purportedly from militant Islamic groups have surfaced.

ABCShahzad Tanweer, 22
· Suspected suicide bomber
· Lived in Leeds, England, all his life
· Visited Lahore, Pakistan, for two months this year to study Islam, according to uncle
· Linked to Aldgate area blast, police say

APHasib Hussain, 18
· Suspected suicide bomber
· Lived in Leeds suburb of Holbeck all his life
· Reportedly became more devout Muslim two years ago
· Property found in bus wreckage


Mohammed Sidique Khan, 30
· Suspected suicide bomber
· Briton born in Pakistan, lived in Leeds until recently
· Father to 8-month-old girl
· Worked with disabled children
· Documents of his found in Edgware Road subway blast debris

Lindsey Germaine
· Suspected suicide bomber
· Briton born in Jamaica


Commenting on the possible role of al-Qaida, Blair said, "Al-Qaida is not an organization. Al-Qaida is a way of working ... but this has the hallmark of that approach.''

"Al-Qaida clearly has the ability to provide training ... to provide expertise ... and I think that is what has occurred here,'' Blair said.

The Times of London, quoting unidentified police sources, said detectives were interested in locating Magdy el-Nashar, 33, an Egyptian-born academic who recently taught chemistry at Leeds University. The Times said he was believed to have rented one of the homes being searched in Leeds.

A spokesman at North Carolina State University said el-Nashar studied chemical engineering there, beginning in January 2000.

Saad Khan, the chemical engineering department's director of graduate programs, said he remembered that el-Nashar applied for admission while living in Egypt. By the end of spring semester in 2000, el-Nashar had decided to pursue a doctorate at Leeds instead, Khan said.

In a statement Thursday, Leeds University said el-Nashar enrolled in October 2000 to do biochemical research, sponsored by the National Research Center in Cairo, Egypt. It said he earned a doctorate May 6.

"We understand he was seeking a postdoctorate position in the U.K.,'' the university said. "His visa was updated by the Home Office earlier this year. He has not been seen on the campus since the beginning of July.


Neighbors said el-Nashar recently left Britain, saying he had a visa problem, The Times reported.

The Daily Telegraph said police were trying to identify a man seen standing near the four suspects on the Luton railway station platform, where they apparently boarded a train for London on July 7.

The Evening Standard reported that police spotted a fifth man on closed-circuit TV of the group at London's King's Cross station about 20 minutes before the explosions.

Late Wednesday, Scotland Yard said anti-terror police had raided a residence northwest of London.

Officers carried out a forensic examination, but police would not say why they targeted the house on a residential street in Aylesbury, about 40 miles from London and 20 miles from Luton - where a vehicle believed to be linked to the attacks was towed away Wednesday.

Reports said Tanweer had been arrested once for shoplifting, and Hussain was once questioned for disorderly behavior.

The Independent newspaper, citing police sources, said one of the four had been linked loosely to a plot to build a large bomb near London. It did not identify the suspect. The newspaper said police described the link as a low-level "association.''

That appeared to be a reference to a ring cracked in March 2004, when eight men were arrested across southern England in an operation that led to the seizure of half a ton of ammonium nitrate, a chemical fertilizer used in many bomb attacks. Several have been charged and face trial."

I have never understood fanaticism of any kind. It is so very disturbing, in every, single way.

DC, it is very sad that politicians function in this manner. Can you imagine that your every response to every question is weighed and measured, and becomes fodder for your competition? I would hate to live in such a spotlight, but they seem to thrive on it, don't they??

Yes, most really do. I too could never live that way. I could never look myself in the mirror.

I grew up with a boy who who's dad was a local councilman in our area. A very good man who really cared about the community and always made his decisions based on the best interests of the community. He is now an elderly man, semi retired and just the other day I asked him why he never ran for congressman. You want to know what his EXCAT reply was ? He said " Because I wouldn't sell my soul for a high postion in politics, I would have never been able to live with myself!"

So there you have it.


Don Cardi

It is quite true. When I was in economic development, I had to work with a number of politicians, local and state. It always seemed that they would have these great innovative idease when they were first elected. Then, the longer they spent in office, the more they would pander to special interest groups. It was always unbelievable to see the change in them as they grew more "fat" and comfortable. On the other hand, you have to attend all of these public meetings and listen to complete idiots prattle on and on about their "concerns". I must admit that I would love the "shmoozing" part of politics, but I would never have the patience to be polite to the people who grab the microphone and babble for an endless amount of time over nothing.

Anyway, sorry for hijacking the thread. This is supposed to be about our friends in England and what they are going through right now, and I apologize to them for going on and on like the people I just criticized above.

Hmmm, maybe you should have been a politician. J/J.


Latest news is that they just anounced a major arrest in Iraq of a top Al Quaida leader. And they say that he's talking like a parrot!


Don Cardi

Senator Babe...Governor Babe....another pezzanovante...

Glad to hear they made an arrest, and I hope that it proves fruitful, like maybe we can find out where the heck Bin Laden is!!!

No disrespect intended, but there is no way would bin Laden ever volunteer on a suicide mission unless he was terminally ill. Even then I seriously doubt he would. The reason? He's too much of a coward to do that. His M.O. is to use his family's money and entice the poor, easily manipulated, and angry Muslims and train them to be radical extremist killers.

The only way I envison OBL taking his own life is if he's surrounded and about to be captured. And if by killing himself could also bring harm to some so-called "infidels" then he might do it.

Related to the London bombing, I found it really discouraging that 4 British people are allegedly behind last week's attacks.
Blair shocked \'bombers\' were British [/b][/quote]Probably a shocking first, I fully agree with what Goombah has said. UBL will never take his own life, because he is too valuable to the cause. He will continue to bend his followers to his anti-western and anti-nonmuslim ideology, tools for him to utilize.

Now there has been bombings in Turkey and one of my closest friends left for holiday in the early hours of this morning to go on holiday there with his family, i'm praying that they are safe and nowhere near these terrible acts

I've just seen the Turkish thing.

For those who might have missed it: Deadly Turkish Minibus Bombing (Source: The UK Guardian)

First picture realised by the police of the four bombers.

The bombers: Hasib Hussain, Germaine Lindsay (dark cap), Mohammad Sidique Khan (light cap) and Shehzad Tanweer.

In a leading newspaper in India which filled its entire first page and another page with London blasts coverage, I found a small news item somewhere in the middle pages about the Iraq blasts on saturday. I was pissed off wondering why death 98 people in Iraq won't gather as much attention as those of London I returned from a vacation yesterday and had not visited this site for a couple of days. After reading this news article, I checked in this board to see what our members think about this, expecting some thread to be there already discussing this. Well, I was surprised, but I won't be, the next time something happens somewhere

Its out of control. 98 people and counting. They are really getting desperate. first London and now this.

ANIMALS!


DS

It broke my heart to read that the US soldiers were giving out candy to Iraqi children when one of the suicide bombers hit. I think that the innocent children are the most heart-breaking victims of all. They have been indoctrinated in hatred and have had their childhood stolen from them. I'm not saying that to minimize other losses; any loss of life is a horror. But, to me, the children are the saddest.

Sicilian Babe, as much as I agree with you that children are the saddest etc.. I also deep down believe that by going after children they are digging their own grave. There are only so many times that a person can say "It's the U.S.' fault that these bombers are killing children" before they look at it and say I just lost 2 children because of these bastards etc...

So yes it is sad and disgusting when they go after children but as I've said with every death that has happened in Iraq, the deaths MUST lead to something, even if its just less people willing to allow these terrorists to stay in their home etc...

I'm with you BIG TIME on that one Sicilian Babe!!!!! It hurts to see any innocent life lost, especilly in that manner, but where children are involved, it makes it even more that harder to swallow. It enrages me when little children fall victim to these kinds of acts.

These bastards have no regard whatsoever for human life of any kind.


Don Cardi

DMC, I pray that some good would come out of all of those losses. If all of these people are dying anyway, then I guess that all we can hope is that it will turn the tide at some point.

So your are saying Nobody should give sh*t about London?
Idiot

So your are saying Nobody should give sh*t about London?
Idiot
[/b][/quote]No, he's saying why should the death of 98 people in Iraq gather more attention than those in London, he never said it mattered more. Or that no one should give a shit about London. You're putting words in people's mouth. :rolleyes:

You figurin' on startin' up again?

Tony, you have shown good email etiquette by putting your name/signature after the message

Tony, you have shown good email etiquette by putting your name/signature after the message [/b][/quote]No, I was referring to you sayin some bloody Iraqis are more important than my home city (and the world's greatest city) getting the hell bombed out of it. Show some respect to London.

And you show some respect to your fellow board members. You owe svsg an apology.

If anything he owes me an apology for belittleing the traumatic terrorist events my hometown has suffered over the last couple of weeks. I get treated so unfairly here its astonishing, and you want ME to apologize?

I don't give a shit about who said what or who started this....something that always seems to pop up in one of your arguments. There are no personal attacks allowed here. Why don't you get that??

He, or anyone else here is allowed their own opinion. It doesn't have to agree with yours. He, or anyone else here is due the respect that we all expect for ourselves (and our opinions). Why don't you get that?

I can't make you apologize, but you should (do the right thing and apologize). Regardless, you're not going to start disrupting the boards again.

All I know is that there seems to be one rule for me and another for everyone else, its not an opinion, svsg just spoke about the attacks on London as if they were nothing and when I call him an idiot for dismissing the deaths of 60 of my fellow Londoners Im told to apologize. I really can't believ you SC.

Your "the world is against me" defense is wearing thin and I don't give a damn if you believe me or not. You were told to apologize for calling another board member an idiot, not for anything to do with his or your politics.

Consider this a warning. You should also consider to stop arguing this point.

Im not apologizing to anybody. It seems board Policy here that ''when we know MMM, Tony Kyprianou, Greek Sicilian is right we just tell him to shutup, or apologise, or ban him'' Im sick of it.

No one forces you to come here or post here. You do so of your own free will. So if you are sick of things and do not enjoy posting here anymore, then why do you continue to come back here?

I think that you have been given a very fair shake on these boards, here in General Discussion, GF Trilogy, Scarface and in Organized Crime Real Life.

You've always been given a fair chance and the moderators of the boards have been extremely fair with you. Even when you continually start flames and make personal remarks against others and attacks on others.

Why can't you just debate without getting personal, and just enjoy and contirbute good things over in the other threads?


Don Cardi

Thanks to his own actions in this thread and a few others in the last two days Tony K is now history. His attention seeking days here are over.

You're a real piece of work Tony. For one, not a single person in this entire thread at undermined what happened in London. svsg brought up something that happened in India, and expressed his disbelief that nothing was mentioned about it. And you go and call him an idiot because he was shocked that London was mentioned, but no mention of India. Four words Tony: grow the f*ck up!

I agree 100% Don Cardi, only I'm gonna go one better, whether its right or wrong. Tony Kyprianou, you should have just stayed gone when you left the first time.

Now, lets get back on topic!

Who's Tony K. ?

As far as I am concerned any act of terrorism against any country is disgusting and I would be willing to help the people of any country that is attacked by terrorists.


DS

Thanks Don Andrew, SC and XDCX for supporting me. Whoever gave him the idea that I thought london attacks were nothing. I would be the last person to say that. India has been suffering from terrorist attacks much longer than UK or US. Unfortunately it has taken some nasty attacks on these powerful countries for the world to become aware of how serious this problem is. To me London or Iraq or US or India are all same. These deaths are tragic and un-necessary.

For anyone interested, have a look at this SITE . You can use the 'graph wizard' to make graphs on a variety of parameters like the number of incidents or deaths or whatever, region wise. Choose line-graph (the pie-chart is not very useful)and 3-D for display. The figures for India plus Kashmir (a state on the india/pakistan border which both countries claim) when compared to other countries will tell you the story of horror here. A comparitive look at Iraq figures is also very insightful.

Wait, Tony K was TonyMontana/GSMD/MMM? I didn't know that...?

Look at what this piece of shit said about the London & 9/11 attacks
Atta\'s father praises London bombs

Look at who you're talking about here. The father who defended his son's actions on 9/11!!! These people are out of their minds. I don't care what anyone says, these people are NOT human.


Don Cardi

As a logical and reasonable human being, I feel we must respect this man's opinion, as it is an opinion he is entitled to...

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Ah fuck it, I say stick a meat hook up his ass and hang him from a tree!

DC, unfortunately evil is part of the human nature. Add a pseudoreligious brainwashing and that's it!

How do you think the son became the monster that he did? I'm sure he learned it at his father's knee. And, unfortunately, DC, they are all too human. Man's inhumanity to man is well-documented through the ages. Animals don't treat each other like this. Even among predators, I doubt you'd see a suicid bomber leopard! I don't mean to be light-hearted, but it's quite true.

Yeah and this a$$hole said it could go on for 50 years! I don't wanna be 72 by the time this war ends

Maybe the next time Atta's father wants to speak with CNN, they'll take Charles Manson or Sammy the Bull with them so that Senor Atta just 'disappears.' He's really serving no purpose whatsoever and he's inhaling precious oxygen that he does not deserve.

wrong. It's CNN that wanted to speak with him. I don't see why CNN gave him visibility.

I agree. But unfortunately those who make these kinds of decisions only care about the $$ that can be made. Decency amd principle are secondary to many of these media whores.
It's sad.


Don Cardi

wrong. It's CNN that wanted to speak with him. I don't see why CNN gave him visibility. [/b][/quote]Not entirely. CNN and the media (including many on these boards beloved Fox) is in the business to report news. I seriously doubt that CNN or any other media outlet was going through a list of the families of the 19 hijackers asking who wanted to talk on camera. I would bet that Atta's father reached out first. Certainly CNN had no obligation to air the story - I do fault them for releasing this hateful a-hole's diatribe.

There are now reports of police being called in on new "incidents" in the London subways. Apparently 3 of the lines have been closed down (by police) after reports of smoke in the system.

I just woke up and turned on the tv and am hearing this news now. From what I've heard they only have seen smoke at this point. Is that correct?

Keep us posted all of our UK friends, and do be careful & alert.


TIS

TIS -

The news stations are becoming more confident that a few explosions took place (at least one backpack in the subway and an explosion on a bus). Supposedly two bombs have been found that have not exploded, yet.

I'm here in London and there have been some explosions about an hour or so ago, and at least 3 Tube lines have been closed. I think the whole network might be closing now, not too sure at this point. There has also been an explosion on a bus in Hackney - just outside the city centre. From what I'm hearing, the explosions were small ones - possibly Nail Bombs - although I don't think many people have been injured at this point.

This is just plain crazy!!!

London Police Evacuate Train Stations, Bus

LONDON - Two weeks after suicide attacks on subway stations and a bus, police reported incidents at three subway stations and an official said the windows of a double-decker bus were blown out Thursday.

Police said one person was hurt but stressed that the scale of the attack was not on the order of the July 7 bombings in which 52 people and four suicide attackers were killed.

Emergency teams were sent to all three stations after the lunch time incidents. One witness told Sky TV that another subway passenger told him a backpack exploded at the Warren Street station and there were reports of smoke.

Police in chemical protection suits were seen preparing to enter the Warren Street Underground station. Unspecified incidents also were reported at the Shepherds Bush and Oval stations.

Stagecoach, the company which operates the stricken bus, said the driver heard a bang and went upstairs, where he found the windows blown out. The company said the bus was structurally intact and there were no reports of injuries.

Closed-circuit TV cameras on Hackney Road showed the No. 26 bus immobilized at a stop with its indicator lights flashing. The area around the bus had been cordoned off.

Prime Minister Tony Blair canceled his afternoon appointments as the developments unfolded.

The incidents were hauntingly similar to the blasts two weeks ago, which involved explosions at three Underground stations simultaneously - quickly followed by a blast on a bus. Those bombings, during the morning rush hour, also occurred in the center of London, hitting the Underground railway from various directions.

Thursday's incidents, however, were more geographically spread out.

London Ambulance said it was called to the Oval station at 12:38 p.m. and Warren Street at 12:45 p.m. The July 7 attacks began at 8:51 a.m.

British Transport Police said one person was hurt at Warren Street, but they did not know how serious the injury was.

BBC TV reporter Keith Doyle near Oval station said a police officer told him there had been an incident, although it was not an explosion. He said officers had cordoned off a wide area around the station.

"People were panicking. But very fortunately the train was only 15 seconds from the station," witness Ivan McCracken told Sky news.

McCracken said another passenger at Warren Street claimed he had seen a backpack explode. The bombs which killed 56 people on board three underground trains and a bus in London on July 7 were carried in rucksacks, police said.

Police cordoned off streets near Warren Street, and officers with bomb-detecting dogs checked the area.

McCracken said he smelled smoke and that people were panicking and coming into his carriage.

McCracken said he spoke to an Italian man who was comforting a woman after the evacuation.

"He said that a man was carrying a rucksack and the rucksack suddenly exploded. It was a minor explosion but enough to blow open the rucksack," McCracken said.

"The man then made an exclamation as if something had gone wrong. At that point everyone rushed from the carriage."

Services on the Victoria and Northern lines were suspended following reports of a number of incidents, London Underground said.

"I was in the carriage and we smelt smoke - it was like something was burning," said Losiane Mohellavi, 35, who was evacuated at Warren Street.

"Everyone was panicked and people were screaming. We had to pull the alarm. I am still shaking," Mohellavi said.

This is just an outrage. saddening of course, but also an outrage.

It's high time that a larger percentage of the good Muslim people around the world, those who are sincere in their beliefs and practice the correct teaching of The Koran, rise up and take action against those who are smearing their religion with these extremist acts of terror. The good people in these communities need to start policing their communities and report anyone from within their community who they feel are radical and extreme. These are attacks not only against NON Muslims, but against NON believers of the radical, extremist and twisted ways of these fanatics. And the good people of these communities need to realize this and act on this in order to try and help stop these horrible acts of terrorism.


Don Cardi

Anybody think this might be some sick "copycat" type thing? I mean, we know Al Qaeda and other muslim terrorists don't do anything half assed, and with only 1 injury reported so far (thank God), it seems to me that it might be some sick fucks who got together to scare people again. Also, I didn't think these were necessarily suicide attacks, as has been the norm...I read one of the subways was somebody who ran on, left a backpack, and then ran off. Not characteristic of the typical Al Qaeda martyrdom.

I concur and really wonder why more people haven't come forth with information

I respectfully beg to differ with you on that comment. Al Qaeda has carried out many different kinds of bombings. They don't only resort to suicide bombings. There have been incidents of planted bombs being left and set off by these scumbags.

FOX News has just confirmed that several bombs actually did detonate, but so far one found on a bus did not. They are also in pursuit of someone who they think was responsible for planting the bomb and may have possibly injured himself in doing so. They also have one in custody who they believe is involved and has strong ties to Al Qaeda.

There has been an anouncement that the U.S. Embassy may be closed.

ONE death caused by these bastards is still ONE too many!


Don Cardi

Mmm, true, I mean, the original WTC bombing in '93 wasn't a suicide attack. It just usually seems to me in high profile attacks that they use suicide bombers to exaggerate the committal of their "soldiers" to their twisted cause.

Though what you say is correct, muslims as a whole have been subjected to a lot of suspicion and hatred after the terror attacks. One can expect them to come forward 'proactively' in helping with the fight against terrorism once they can be convinced that an average muslim who has got nothing to do with terrorism can receive the same amount of respect as others get. IF I were a muslim and some people were to constantly suspect me, I would hardly care about the welfare of those people. Ofcourse I don't know what muslims think, I am guessing.

And that is EXACTLY why the Muslim people who are good people should come out and denounce these acts and turn in those they see who are giving them a bad name. If the Muslim community stepped up to the plate and turned in the ones who they suspect are extremists and are preaching fantasim in their mosques and communities, then maybe they would not be subject to suspicion and abuse by outsiders. I don't condone abusing the Muslim people because they are Muslim, for that is pure ignorance. But I feel that the good people of the Muslim community will never be taken seriously unless they take a firm stand against those within their communities who are preaching hate and fanatasicm.

There have been several mosques both in London and the USA where extremist teachers, with ties to Al Qaeda, have been arrested and charged. That does not mean that all of the members of those Mosques are extremists or terrorists, but it does mean that these people are hearing what is being preached and if they know that what is being preached is NOT what The Koran teaches, then they should step up and start blowing the whistle on those who are distorting real Muslim teachings and inciting hate.

Unfortunately until that starts to happen on a much broader scale, the innocent and good Muslim people of the world will be looked upon with suspicion.

It is very important that they do what is neccesary to help rid their religion of those who are tarnishing it.

Don't kid yourself for one minute. Part of the plan of the extremisit is to plant seeds of hate in Non Muslims against innocent Muslims so that the extremists can then say to the Muslim " See, you are hated because you are a Muslim and therfore you must join in Jihad against the non believers." It'a all part of the plan.


Don Cardi

You are right. This ploy is used by many groups to convince people that they are victims and must defend themselves to survive. Though Osama and similar top leaders have some grandiose wicked plans, I am sure the ordinary soldier who joins the group is convinced that he is fighting for his religion. It is surely not reward of 72 virgins in heaven or some such crap that many believe to be their motive. That is a simplistic analysis and not true IMO.

I think it's important to remember that the "people" (savage animals is more like it) carrying out these attacks are not true Muslims. They pervert the Muslim faith by claiming their attacks are to serve Allah, which is a bunch of crap. All they are doing is holding the religion hostage and casting a bad name upon what is a peaceful religion. These terrorists are NOT Muslims - they are radical fundamentalist extremists.

True Muslims, like Muhammed Ali for example, denounce these cowardly terrorists who cite their so-called religious beliefs as reasons for carrying out attacks. Like that idiot Atta's father said to CNN - the extremists want a holy war that will last decades. Their goal is to purport a war so it's viewed as the Westerners/Christians/Jews vs. the Muslims.

I was arguing with a co-worker today about pulling out of Iraq in an effort to appease the Muslim world and the extremists. My point was that even if we did pull out, that there is no pleasing the fundamentalists. They would be mad for us leaving Iraq in dissarray. Or they would simply find some other convenient reason to hate us. We're in a no-win situation trying to change their minds. They have been taught since birth to hate the West in general and America in particular. And nothing we do will ever change that mentality.

Or it is possible that these things have nothing to do with religion and may be economicaly driven. The large money needed for these organizations should be coming from illegal sources. Could be viscious cycle of arms supply, drugs trade, politics, corruption. Religion might just be an excuse...

Please forgive my ignorance in the matter, but why do these people teach their children to hate the West so much? What did we ever do to them? Why is it just the West that they are targeting? Didn't we help these people rid themselves of "the enemy" (the Russians) during the 1980s??

NEW YORK - Police will begin conducting random searches of packages and backpacks carried by people entering city subways, Mayor Michael Bloomberg announced Thursday after a new series of bomb attacks in London.

Authorities said the system is still being developed, but the plan is for passengers carrying bags to be selected at random before they have passed through turnstiles.

Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly promised that officers would not engage in racial profiling, and that passengers will be free to "turn around and leave" rather than consent to a search.

Officials would not immediately say how frequently the checks would occur. The checks are scheduled to begin at some stations by Thursday evening and will be occurring throughout the system by rush hour on Friday.

"We just live in a world where, sadly, these kinds of security measures are necessary," Bloomberg said. "Are they intrusive? Yes, a little bit. But we are trying to find that right balance."

Searching the bags of more than a token number of straphangers may be impossible.

New York's subways carry about 4.5 million passengers on the average weekday, according to the Metropolitan Transportation Authority.

There are 468 subway stations in the system, most of which have multiple entrances, and during rush hours, the flood of commuters hurrying in and out of key stations can be overwhelming.

Asked whether the searches might create bottlenecks at subway entrances, Kelly suggested the searches would be of a small enough sampling of passengers that only individuals, rather than whole crowds, would be delayed.

"We are going to do it in a reasonable commonsense way," he said.

Similar types of random searches of subway passengers have prompted complaints from civil liberties groups in other cities, and in some cases have been challenged in court.

Christopher Dunn, associate legal director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, said the searches in New York could be problematic, if not conducted properly.

"The department can and should be actively and aggressively investigating anyone they suspect of bringing explosives into the subway, but police searches of people without any individualized suspicion is contrary to our most basic constitutional values," he said.

Authorities said there is also a possibility that checks will be conducted on some bus and train passengers.

Europe is looking at a problem of enormous proportions. All the major countries there have large muslim populations nearing about 15%-20%. Most of them came in to do menial work. Many have been there for generations and still are not citizens of the various countries. theyu live in segregated ghettoes outside the "post card cities" that we Americans visit when we go over there. The extreme religious leaders, bred in Europe tell these people that the Europeans are decadent and evil, and they insist that the muslims follow all the dress codes, the treatment of women etc., which is abhorrent to Western style democracy.
This is a recipe for complete disaster, and what we are seeing in England, I fear is sort of a copy-cat version of Al Quaeda which may well be home grown.

Until the Muslim religion embraces a reformation much like the Christian religion did 550 years ago there is going to be trouble.

Add to that the fact that the middle east is the repository of most of the world's oil, and thus the natural setting for ongoing wars (who is kiddin whom here) to control it, the fire is further fueled.

It's not ignorance, Irishman. It's a complicated issue. I think it falls into 3 main issues: 1) Part of the problem is our nation's wealth. We're the wealthiest country on earth and, proportionally, we don't share that wealth with other countries. 2) Another factor is that we are an educated people and we are free to pursue whatever we want to in this country. 3) The last is our freedom. Despite the complaining we all do about our country from time to time, we enjoy a great many freedoms in this country. I know that I certainly am guilty at times of taking those freedoms for granted. We don't have to live day-to-day with tanks, fighter planes, and machine gun fire going on in our neighborhoods. We don't have 10 year old boys being forcefully taken to go fight in a war.

Many of these people are poorer than we can ever imagine, impoverished into an existence where there is no freedom, no opportunity and no hope. That's why I think the fundamentalists are so easily influenced because ANYTHING (including becoming a suicide bomber so their family can get money) is better than the existence they endure. Not that I can sympathize for 1 second the notion of anyone becoming a suicide bomber who targets innocent people.

Then throw in the fact that they have very filtered and heavily censored media and they're fed constant misinformation about us. They hear al Jezeera (or however it's spelled) saying the "US are occupiers - just look at what the US is doing to Iraq." They don't have the choice to get alternative viewpoints than what their government rams down the citizen's throats. Couple that with many, many illiterate people and you get what we have today in the Mid East and in other parts of the world.

And that is what I was trying to say in my other posts. I refer to the scumbags as extremists, and to the true Muslim as GOOD Muslims.

As for that arguement that people give about " maybe if we pulled out of Iraq" or " They are pissed at us because we went into Iraq" is weak and is just plain bullshit!


Rabbi Meir Kahane murdered, WTC Bombed, USS Cole bombed. Bali nightclub bombed, Mogadeshu incident, US Embassy Bombing in Nairobi, Planes flown into WTC.

Didn't these incidents occur way before we ever went into Iraq?

They'll attack us no matter what. Their mission is to destroy all those who do NOT see their so called religious EXTREMIST beliefs. Bottom line.

That Iraq arguement is so weak. :rolleyes:

These bastards MUST be incinerated.


Don Cardi

:p sorry Goombah, couldn't help it lol

:p sorry Goombah, couldn't help it lol [/quote]

How do you find out which ones should be incinerated and which ones should not be? Who should decide this?

How do you find out which ones should be incinerated and which ones should not be? Who should decide this? [/b][/quote]I know that I would love to have 5 minutes alone with one of them. Wouldn't you?


When one is caught red handed, dead to rights, plotting to kill people, making bombs to commit acts of terrorism, funneling money to known terrorist groups or trying to kill people in the manner that they do, then what do you think we should do to them, counselor?


Don Cardi

I think it would be interesting to ponder what would happen if we pulled out of the Middle East entirely. I would suspect that Israel would become enemy number 1 (if it isn't already), and there would be a muslim war against the Jewish state, condemning them for their "oppression" of Palestine.

Though I could see us sending them arms, perhaps even WMD's, to aid their cause? Just a theory, mind you. But it would keep the US hands clean. Clearly, Israel knows how to take care of business, as they obliterated the PLO from Lebanon in the 80's (despite the western media's outright rejection of the actions as illegitimate).

Amen to that. Isreal doesn't take any shit from terrorists.

Don Cardi

LONDON (July 22) - Police shot and killed a man wearing a thick coat at a London subway station Friday, a day after the city was hit by its second wave of terrorist attacks in two weeks.

The man died after being shot by officers at the Stockwell subway station in south London, police said.

Passengers said a man, described as South Asian, ran onto a train at Stockwell station in south London. Witnesses said police chased him, he tripped, and police then shot him.

''They pushed him onto the floor and unloaded five shots into him. He's dead,'' witness Mark Whitby told the British Broadcasting Corp. ''He looked like a cornered fox. He looked petrified.''

Britain is home to many immigrants from the South Asian countries of Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, among others.

Whitby said the man did not appear to have been carrying anything but said he was wearing a thick coat that looked padded. Temperatures in London on Friday were in the 70s.

Alistair Drummond, of the London Ambulance Service, said paramedics had been called to the station at 10:10 a.m.

Service on the Northern and Victoria Tube lines, which pass through Stockwell, was suspended because of the shooting, British Transport Police said. Stockwell is one station away from the Oval station, which was affected by Thursday's attacks.

____________________________________________________________


Don Cardi

How do you find out which ones should be incinerated and which ones should not be? Who should decide this? [/b][/quote]You decide this exactly the way that they took care of the bastard this morning in London. One less murderer in the world now.


DS

Under those circumstances...a few bullets to the head.

Under those circumstances...a few bullets to the head. [/b][/quote]That's too humane for these monsters. I still like my idea.

It's good to see the people of London staying steadfast and not letting fear dictate the way that they go about their daily lives. It's a very hard thing to do and I feel for them.

I loved the story that I heard this morning about several civilians who jumped on one of these guys and beat the heck out of him. Too bad he got away.


Don Cardi

I am listening to the ongoing BBC coverage. They are saying the guy they shot was connected to yesterday's incident, but they havent said how. They are also raiding two houses at this very moment, and they have released pictures of what appear to be all four bombers at the various subway and bus stops.

I believe he's the guy who they started to track down yesterday and thought that he went to the hospital.

There is also news that someone attempted to torch one of the suicide bombers homes. These are the things that are going to happen unless the islamic community speaks out against these bombings.


DS

Along this same line:

LONDON (AFP) - British Muslims said they feared police were operating under a "shoot to kill" policy after a man was gunned down at an Underground train station following a new wave of bomb attacks.

Muslims said the shooting deepened their anxiety about a violent backlash against their community in the wake of two sets of bomb attacks blamed on Islamist militants, including one that killed 56 people on July 7.

The Muslim Council of Britain demanded police explain why an Asian-looking man, reported as a "suspected suicide bomber" by Sky News, was shot dead at Stockwell station in south London on Friday.

Police have confirmed that officers pursued and shot a man who was pronounced dead at the scene, but have offered no explanation for the shooting.

The incident came a day after another apparent wave of would-be suicide bombers hit London's mass transport system, two weeks after four suspected Islamist suicide bombers on trains and a bus killed 56 people.

No one was injured in Thursday's attacks after the bombs apparently failed to go off. A website statement purportedly from the Al-Qaeda terror network claimed responsibility for the attacks Friday but this has not been confirmed.

A Muslim Council spokesman said Muslims were "jumpy and nervous" and feared reprisal attacks.

"I have just had one phone call saying 'What if I was carrying a rucksack?'," said Inayat Bunglawala, referring to the rucksack bombs used in the London attacks.

"It's vital the police give a statement about what occurred (at Stockwell) and explain why the man was shot dead," Bunglawala said.

"We are getting phone calls from quite a lot of Muslims who are distressed about what may be a shoot-to-kill policy."

Witnesses told Sky News that police shot the man five times at close range after shouting at him to stop. Others described seeing many heavily armed plainclothes officers in unmarked cars at the scene.

"There may well be reasons why the police felt it necessary to unload five shots into the man and shoot him dead, but they need to make those reasons clear," Bunglawala said.

The shooting is the latest in a series of incidents which have threatened to create a rift between Britain's large Muslim community and the rest of the population in the wake of the terrorist attacks here this month.

Some radical British Muslim preachers have blamed the government's Middle East policy and the British-backed invasion of Iraq for the outrages, although the vast majority of British Muslims have condemned the bombings.

"Unless British foreign policy is changed and they withdraw forces from Iraq, I'm afraid there's going to be a lot of attacks, just the way it happened in Madrid and the way it happened in London," radical British Muslim preacher Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed told the New York Times this week.

The government is drafting a range of tough new laws to crack down on Islamic extremism and those who advocate terrorism, including setting up special intelligence units to monitor Muslims nationwide.

Prime Minister Tony Blair called Tuesday on Britain's Muslim community to confront the "evil ideology" behind terrorism following a meeting with leaders from Islamic groups.

In another incident Friday, armed police briefly threw a cordon around a mosque in east London, while the home of a Muslim convert identified as one of the suspected July 7 suicide bombers was sealed off after a suspected arson attack.

Analysts said the officers involved in the Stockwell shooting did not appear to be operating according to normal procedures.

"These guys may have been some sort of plainclothes special forces," said terrorism expert Professor Michael Clarke.

"To have bullets pumped into him like this suggests quite a lot about him and what the authorities, whoever they are, assumed about him."

Professor Paul Rogers of Bradford University said the shooting had parallels with the "very strong" methods used by Israeli security forces and US troops in Iraq.

"The kind of tactics the Met (Metropolitan police) appear to have used this morning are very similar to the very tough tactics that the Israelis use against suspected suicide bombers," he said.

Now tell me something, how is this guy allowed to walk freely?. A known radical Muslim preacher makes statements like this, in public and he is still allowed to preach? They should drag his ass in and find out what he really knows. The Mosque that he preaches in should be investigated big time. Unbelievable!

Radical muslim preaching translates into Jihad and Terrorism.


Don Cardi

Now the tube drivers a really scared.

I'm sure this will add to the confusion & chaos, but I don't blame these people one bit. It's so easy to say "go on as usual", but these poor people are scared and rightfully so.


web page

TIS

Maybe they were the fashion police.

This whole affair is ridiculous. This country (the UK) is on alert, the capitol especially, and the whole country is united in their hatred of the terrorist threat, and rightly so.

The problem is in the atmosphere of terror and panic that has been created. It produces two reactions: (1) Blind, undevoted trust and loyalty to the state and Police and (2) Blind, unalloyed hatred of the "enemy" whoever that may be.

In this sort of atmosphere, it becomes abhorrent to criticise one's own countrymen, especially the Police force. But the British public are awful reactionaries, never mind all this BS about stiff upper lip. And our Police force is woefull inept. Tragedy cannot mask incompetence. Our Police are rubbish, useless. Sorry if that's disrespectful, but it's a true assessment.

They are paid a lot of money and do an important job. They are VERY good at catching motorists doing 32 mph in a 30 mph zone; they excel at crowd control and moving people along, there's nothing to see here. But actually thwarting a co-ordinated terrorist threat? Rubbish. We need a dedicated counter-terrorist force, peopled by educated, intelligent, sharp and physically fit individuals.

And what is their stock response to attacks? "We ask the public to be vigilant." We've got our own jobs to do, our own lives to lead. Sure, we'll take care of ourselves and look out for suspicious packages and so on. But it's your job to keep us safe, guys. Start doing it and stop congratulating yourselves for being so good at cleaning up messes that wouldn't happen if you were any good.

LONDON - The man shot and killed on a subway car by London police in front of horrified commuters had nothing to do with this month's bombings on the city's transit system, police said Saturday in expressing their regrets.

A day earlier, the police commissioner said the man was "directly linked" to Thursday's attacks, in which bombs on three subway trains and a bus failed to detonate properly. No one was injured.

"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets," a police spokesman said on customary condition of anonymity.

The man, whose identity has not been released, was shot Friday at a subway station in the south London neighborhood of Stockwell. Witnesses said the man appeared to be South Asian and was wearing a heavy padded coat when police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him in the head and torso.

A police spokesman said on customary condition of anonymity that the man was unconnected to Thursday's incidents, in which bombs placed on three subway cars and a double-decker bus failed to detonate properly.

Later, a Metropolitan Police official said on condition of anonymity that the man was "not believed to be connected in any way to any of the London bombings." The official requested anonymity because no official announcement had been made concerning a link to the July 7 attacks that killed 56 people, including four attackers.

Hours after the man was killed, Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair said the shooting was "directly linked" to the investigations.

"The man who was shot was under police observation because he had emerged from a house that was itself under observation because it was linked to the investigation of yesterday's incidents," police said Friday.

"He was then followed by surveillance officers to the station. His clothing and his behavior at the station added to their suspicions."

Police investigating Thursday's attacks also said Saturday they had arrested a second man in the same south London neighborhood where the shooting occurred and another person was detained.

Thousands of officers fanned out in a huge manhunt amid hopes the publication of images of four suspected attackers would lead to their capture.

Security alerts kept the city of about 8 million on edge. Police briefly evacuated east London's Mile End subway station in one such incident and one witness reported the smell of something burning. Service was suspended on parts of two subway lines, but police said later the incident "turned out to be nothing."

The mourning continued, with hundreds packing Westminster Cathedral for the funeral Mass of Anthony Fatayi-Williams, a 26-year-old who was among the 52 people killed by four suicide bombers in the first wave of attacks on July 7.

"These present atrocities and Anthony's death have raised great emotions in us," Auxiliary Bishop of Westminster Alan Hopes told mourners. "We are angry, we are appalled and we are grieving. But as Christians we cannot yield to bitterness, we cannot yield to thoughts of revenge."

The Metropolitan Police said the second arrest late Friday was "in connection with our inquiries" into Thursday's attacks. The first suspect, whose identity also has not been released, was being questioned at a high-security London police station.

Police would not say whether the men arrested were among the four suspected of carrying bombs onto three subway trains and a bus Thursday. The bombs failed to detonate properly and no one was injured in the attacks, which echoed the much deadlier blasts two weeks earlier.

Police said they had a good response to Friday's release of the photos, taken from the British capital's ubiquitous closed-circuit surveillance cameras, which have proved a boon for investigators.

The closed-circuit TV images of the suspects stared from the front pages of British newspapers Saturday.

"Faces of the four bombers," said the Daily Telegraph.

"The Fugitives" said The Times.

The Daily Mail labeled them "Human Bombs."

One image shows a stocky man in a "New York" sweatshirt running through a station. Another depicts a man in a white baseball cap and a T-shirt adorned with palm trees. Two others are in dark clothes, slightly obscured by a poor camera angle.

A statement posted Friday on an Islamic Web site in the name of an al-Qaida-linked group claimed responsibility for Thursday's attacks.

Authorities, however, were skeptical. The group, Abu Hafs al Masri Brigades, has also claimed responsibility for the July 7 bombings - as it did for the 2003 New York City blackout and many other events.

These have been days of high tension, disruption and fear on the London Underground. The union for subway and bus drivers said workers would be justified in staying away from work if the government fails to take more precautions to make the operators safe.

"I think they're going to strike again," commuter Warren West, 27, said of the bombers. "I think they're doing to London what's happening in Iraq."

Heavily armed officers patrolled with clear instructions to stop suicide bombers - if necessary, with a shot to the head.

"If you are dealing with someone who might be a suicide bomber, if they remain conscious, they could trigger plastic explosives or whatever device is on them," Mayor Ken Livingstone. "Therefore, overwhelmingly in these circumstances, it is going to be a shoot-to-kill policy."

That's not fair my friend. What do you want them to tell you to do, stay in your house and never come out again until all the bad people are caught? C'mon, they are right, we all must be vigilant.

And to blame them saying that these things would not happen if they did there jobs and were any good at it is totally infair. You can have the best intelligence in the world, the best police protection in the world. Your authorities may be successful at diverting an attack, they may even thwart some through good investigation as a result of excellent intelligance gathering. They can provide the best security in the world. But if some religious zealot extremist decides to strap bombs to himself and walk into the middle of a train station, into the heart of a market place or onto a bus, and blow himself up, that is almost impossible to stop. You cannot blame anyone in authority for not being able to stop an act like that.

Don Cardi

Agreed.

But the difficulty of defending against this kind of threat is no excuse for incompetence, that was my point. The police falied to prevent the bombings - perhaps understandably - but do we hear an apology or a promise to do better next time? No - all we get are police media spokesmen congratulating themselves for reacting so well. That's a bit rich.

Incidently, the man they shot at Stockwell tube was completely unassociated with the incidents. He was a Brazilian: Jean Charles de Menezes, 27. Did the police apologize for taking him out execution-style? Well, they expressed their "regret" and agreed that it was "unfortunate" :rolleyes: No doubt the cowboys who shot him will get a medal

Let's keep it in context - the man was 1.) already under survelliance 2.) wearing a thick coat in the summer 3.) Ran away when the police attempted to stop him 4.) Dove onto a subway car, and continued until he slipped and fell.

I'm sorry, but after those suicide bombings, I give kudos to the Brits for actually having the balls to detain him permanently. It isn't as if they just randomly went up, knocked him down, and blew him away for suspicion. He deliberately tried to evade the police, and was a person of interest already.

I wonder how the NYC would've reacted. I always hate the fact that our poor cops end up getting sued by families of people who have their relatives killed because they were in a high speed chase, or took people hostage, etc. For instance, that recent incident where police accidentally killed the little girl who was being used as a shield by her father. They didn't hit her on purpose, they were trying to stop the father after a drawn out standoff. And what happens? Never mind the sick fuck used his daughter as a shield, but the family is suing the police. Is that justice? I don't think so.

I remember when this first happened hearing something said that when this man was finally surounded a heated verbal exchange between the authorities and this man took place and the next thing that happened was that the authorities told all of the civilians to get down on the ground and then they shot him. Can anyone from London confirm this report that I originally heard?

Who knows, maybe this guy told them that he was going to blow himself up or something and that is why they shot him.

The Al Shaprtons of the city would be marching and protesting all over the place!


Don Cardi

I was watching one of the nightly news programs (maybe either NBC or CNN) and it showed a little CGI diagram of how he ran away from the British police and ran onto the train, running through the car until he tripped, thereafter when police shot him.

Now tell me something, how is this guy allowed to walk freely?. A known radical Muslim preacher makes statements like this, in public and he is still allowed to preach? They should drag his ass in and find out what he really knows. The Mosque that he preaches in should be investigated big time. Unbelievable!

Radical muslim preaching translates into Jihad and Terrorism.[/b][/quote]For no ther reason than because I'm in the mood to be argumentative here....

1)What this guy is saying may very well be true, and
2)His statement could be regarded as a prediction and does not necessarily mean that he is advocating that position.

As I say, though, I'm just in the mood to be argumentative.

Well I'm not!


Don Cardi

Awww, you're no fun

And I undertand, of course, that the two points I made above are really unarguable since they're correct. :p

He's a terrorist. End of story. So there is actually nothing to argue or debate about.

Have a great day!



Don Cardi

WRONG! He happened to live in a multi-tenement apartment block that also housed some people who were under surveillance. He DID NOT KNOW the terrorists. Do you deserve to get shot if your nextdoor neighbour is a killer :rolleyes:

WRONG! He wasn't!! Even if he was .... think about what you're saying, man. It's not illegal to wear a thick coat, and it is not effective counter-terrorist policy to shoot everyone who is overdressed :rolleyes:

WRONG! They were plain clothes detective (ie didn't LOOK like police) brandishing guns and shouting and running after some poor bugger. This took place in Stockwell (London's equivalent of ... whatever part of downtown New York is renowned for random shootings and gang violence). Plus he was BRAZILIAN, maybe his English was not great, especially in a panic situation.

WRONG! What is this work of fiction! "Until he slipped and fell"- how does that add weight! He ran, slipped and fell because he was an innocent, terrified civilian being persued by three guys, shouting at him.

Do you maybe want to read that sentence again :rolleyes:
THE POLICE KILLED A LITTLE GIRL!!

Maybe my earier post wasn't clear, so let me lay it on the line for you: THE POLICE SHOT DEAD AN INNOCENT MAN. They screwed up, they got the wrong guy, and they executed him. "poor cops" getting sued by families of innocent people they execute!! Double-J I'm disappointed, you always seemed fairly sensible in your politics on other posts, now it seems your mind's turned to mush with all that comedy you've been playing.

The Police are human; they make mistakes; I DON'T WANT MISTAKES MADE WITH GUNS on a "shoot-to-kill" policy.

===================================================

TERRORISTS v WESTERN WORLD
21 July 2005, 2nd TEST, the OVAL

---INNOCENT PEOPLE---
-----------------INJURED-----------KILLED
Terrorists --------1-----------------0
Police-------------0-----------------1

Another win for the Terrorists, I'd say.

WRONG! He wasn't!! Even if he was .... think about what you're saying, man. It's not illegal to wear a thick coat, and it is not effective counter-terrorist policy to shoot everyone who is overdressed :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]You're right it's not illegal to wear a thick coat in the summer time but it DOES draw attention to yourself. How many people do you know wearing long coats in 90 degree weather!? Even if I wasn't a cop, I'd be suspicious[/qb][/QUOTE]

You can't shoot everyone who acts suspiciously. You would kill dozens of people per day: mentally ill, those unable to understand the language, or just those with innocent but odd habits.

Look at it from the terrorists point of view: if he can kill with a bomb, he's happy ... but if he can get the infidel westerners to kill his own kind, then he's very happy indeed. You want to make these people very happy? I don't.

I understand what you're saying. I wouldn't kill everyone who draws suspicsion. But you would think that 2+ weeks after a terrorists attack occured in London that you WOULDN'T want to draw attention to yourself. I know that after 9/11 that's exactly what people were trying to avoid, foreigner or non.

Agreed, but that's a no-brainer. People don't intend to draw suspicion. Some people just look a bit odd or act suspiciously without even realizing it, and the police shoot first and "apologize" afterward.

Do you agree with the "advice" that I have heard some express elsewhere, apparently without irony, that "anyone of Asian appearence should avoid carrying backpacks for the next few weeks". I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Just a reminder: the guy who was shot was BRAZILIAN!! I'm no expert, but I think I could tell as South-Am'er from an Asian. They look, erm, how can I put this... entirely sodding different.

But our exchage of words means nothing compared to the pain and frustation that Mr de Menezes's family is feeling right now. Our "brave boys" plugged five bullets into the back of his innocent head.

I'm not sure if this individual intended to draw attention but again, some need to use common sense. Whether or not he's a person who gets cold very easily or just enjoys wearing a coat daily, wearing any type of coat in the summer time (unless it's bitterly cold), is going to draw suspicsion, intended or not.

No I think that's total bullcrap and I wouldn't do it. However, they probably know full well that they'll mostly be the ones who are searched.

Not wanting to get personal, or to launch into a separate debate, but I do find this attitude quite disappointing from one who bears your username. I don't know if you are Irish or have Irish family history (apologies for my ignorance), but assuming that you do, I find it difficult to believe that you place so much trust and enthusiastic devotion in the British police.

The shameful Bloody Sunday episode resulted in the death of innocent irishmen who were acting in a far more culpable way than Mr de Menezes. They were protesting, but non-violently and rightfully, and were shot down dead. The current situation is different, but it raises one allied issue: how much discretion or allowence should the police / home forces be allowed to shoot to kill? Should they really be allowed to kill on the basis that a dark-skinned man was wearing a coat that looked a bit too heavy for the weather? That's very shaky grounds indeed, and I am not happy with that as a reason for shooting to kill.

Not wanting to get personal, or to launch into a separate debate, but I do find this attitude quite disappointing from one who bears your username. I don't know if you are Irish or have Irish family history (apologies for my ignorance), but assuming that you do, I find it difficult to believe that you place so much trust and enthusiastic devotion in the British police. [/b][/quote]Yes I am Irish (at least 3/4) and VERY proud of it. I don't know what the situation is like in England but I see where you're coming from with them being suspicoius of the Irish. I've only been to England once when I was like 13 or 14 and I remember hearing that you weren't allowed to sit down in stores or something for fear of Irish attacks or something along those lines. The comments that I posted about the Muslims must likely being the ones searched was directed towards the people in America (as again I don't know what the situation is in England since I'm not there). But now that I think of it, yes I'm sure they're targeting Irish and Muslim

Rightly so: Ireland is a beautiful country and I have found the Irish and the Northern Irish to be the most pleasant and genial people.

I pray to go someday to Ireland

I am just wondering. If you were on that train and you saw all this coming down, What would you be thinking. Would you have run from that train thinking that ths could have been a bomber and you life was about to come to an end?

I for one sit here and thank the lord that we have people who would put their life on the line and chase that suspect even if he was about to take his own life and anyone around him when he could be a walking bomb.

I am just wondering also: If it was your son, or brother, or father that had been shot - plugged with five bullets to the back of the head, exectued as a criminal - What would you be thinkng?

Still "thanking the lord" for those heroes who gunned down your loved one, fatherson? Why don't you contact Mr Menezes's parents and inform them that you "thank the lord" that SO19 were brave enough to shoot their son five times in the back of the head :rolleyes:

I'm just waiting for the time when some fellow is running late for work. He's running so he doesn't miss his train or bus; he has a walkman on, so he can't hear anything. A cop sees him running and tells him to stop. This gentleman is trying to make his train, so he can go to work, pay his taxes, and be a productive citizen. Of course, he can't hear the cops, so that gives this brave man in blue the right to put 5 bullets in the back of his head, because he looked suspicious and didn't obey a cop. I just hope that person wouldn't be a friend or relative of anyone here, and they would expect us to feel sorry for them. After all, these are troubled times and the police should do whatever they want to protect us.

Let's see....if you don't obey the government, give up your civil liberties and let the police do whatever they want you are a rebel to your country and can be shot.

No need to get angry.

I know if I was on that train at that time, I would be scared and if there was the slimmest chance of him being a bomber then by all means it should be him rather then hundreds of us.

His mistake was not stopping, plain and simple. If he would have been by family memeber I would be asking Why? Why didn't he stop, why didn't he listen. I heard about crime in that area, but come on there are tons of people around here and what? three gunmen going after you in a crowded rail station to rob you out of hundreds of commuters? This doesn't make sense to me. That city and its people knew that police where looking for other possible bombers.

During 9-11 when there were planes in the air and we didn't know how many other flights were flying and going to take down more targets it was also very simple. LAND THE PLANE OR BE SHOT DOWN!

Now in New York it is simple, If you want to take our transit system you must allow us to check your bags if we want. If you don't agree, find another way to get where you are going. Those are the new rules, right or wrong. You know them now, so live with them or walk.

Beth it is like taking a plane now, If you fly you now know what to do and not do. You don't stand in line and joke to your friends about hiding drugs or talk about bombs do you?
If so they will pull you out and strip you down before they let you go. Who's fault is that? yours and yours alone!

Smart people who travel in NY subways know better then not pay attention to their surroundings and the people near them at all times.

If I owned a store and a person came in with a large winter coat on in the middle of July with the temp hitting 90 plus, would I watch him as he when about my store. Damn Stright and I would watch to see if he was stealing too.

Prejudice? no smart enough that something dosen't smell right. and I down mean body odor from wearing that coat!

No, but if the house he is living in is under suspicion, and being surveilled, doesn't it make sense to tail the habitants of the house when they leave? And even more, when they head for the subway, after two huge bombings over a two week span?

Here is a link from witnesses...source: Foxnews

No, it's not illegal to wear a thick coat. But it is rather unusual, isn't it? Especially in the hot summer? So, let's check our sheet so far...

1.) He leaves a house already under surveillance
2.) Wears a thick coat; it's summer time. Could potentially be hiding bombs or some other article under his coat.

Let's continue?

It makes sense to me that plainclothes cops would follow him, because they were trying to tail him without him knowing. So when he darts for the subway, I can understand why he was afraid. However, he could've just as well stopped a real cop in the subway, rather than dart for a train. Personally, I don't think the cops acted in the wrong, at least in this case - because he darted on the train, how are they supposed to know he isn't a suicide bomber? Do they wait until he's detonated his load before stopping him? I don't think they can afford to take that risk. And keep in mind, they didn't shoot him until he'd darted onto the subway car.

So, continuing...

3.) He did not stop when police tried to detain him.
4.) He ran into a subway car, rather than trying to find a real police office, or stop when originally told to. I can't imagine it would be that hard, if he thought he was being chased by a "gang," to find a cop in the now occupied London mass transit system.

How is this a work of fiction...he was run down by the police, he tripped, and they forced him to the ground. At that point, how are they supposed to know he isn't going to "press the button" and kill everyone on the train? Do they wait, and try to restrain him, potentially threatening the lives of innocents on the train? Or do they take him out, preferring to save the lives of those on board?

So, let's see...it means nothing that the father pushes his daughter in front of a rash of bullets?

Here's the story from the AP. You can decide for yourself.

The police shot dead one man, whom, if he was a suicide bomber, would've killed hundreds, including the police.

The LA cops didn't "execute" a little girl. They held their fire until the last possible moment, and, rather than leave an innocent life out of it, her sick fuck of a father puts his daughter in the line of fire. So it's the police's fault?

Yeah...for the innocents column of those killed by the terrorists, knock it up by the thousands, with the WTC, Pentagon, Pennsylvania, the Madrid bombings, London, etc... :rolleyes:

As I've already pointed out, if he was a terrorist, what then? Should they have let him go, to accomplish his mission, killing hundreds and injuring more?

But you're taking it out of context. We're not talking about your ordinary "weirdo" ( :p ). This is someone who ran from police and dove onto a subway car, not less than a week after two of the most deadly terrorist incidents in Britains history.

What if he is a terrorist wearing a walkman, to blend into the regular community? Hmm? Who do we blame then?

Why not just open all the subways then, no searches, no security measures?

This isn't some black-and-white issue that liberals would like to paint it as - a slippery slope where big government is stealing our rights. It's the government taking action to prevent more attacks, to prevent another 9/11. I guarantee that the libs would be the first out to pounce of the gov't if another attack hit.

You can't have it both ways. In this day and age, you cannot expect to prevent another 9/11 while living in the carefree pre-9/11 world. Yes, we have to stop these bastards, and it means utilizing more controversial methods. I would much rather wait in line at an airport to be searched (my father was searched on his last business trip, he also ran into an old professor of his, who was an Indian-American, also searched on another business trip) than find out once I'm on board that there are passengers onboard with a bomb or are planning on hijacking the plane.

Originally posted by Double J:

"The police shot dead one man, whom, if he was a suicide bomber, would've killed hundreds, including the police."

This I cannot believe, on this basis we're all potential suicide bombers. Pretty BIG "if" eh Double J??

Nice to know in the home of the brave and the land of the free wearing a heavy coat in summertime is now a capital offence.

How do you find out which ones should be incinerated and which ones should not be? Who should decide this? [/b][/quote]I know that I would love to have 5 minutes alone with one of them. Wouldn't you?


When one is caught red handed, dead to rights, plotting to kill people, making bombs to commit acts of terrorism, funneling money to known terrorist groups or trying to kill people in the manner that they do, then what do you think we should do to them, counselor?


Don Cardi [/b][/quote]Well DC, does this include people who wear heavy coats in the summer?

If you are going to quote me Don T, then please don't take things out of context by omitting the complete conversation. I think that if you put your ORIGINAL answer ( see above ) to my question back into the equation, it makes the others see what you originally said what should be done too. :rolleyes:


Don Cardi

Mmm. So if you were on the train, or your loved one was killed on the train by a suicide bomber who the police didn't stop, would you then be asking why they didn't stop him when they had the chance?

Hindsight is 20/20, and you're seeing perfectly. How were they supposed to know he wasn't a suicide bomber? If he hadn't darted for the subway car, I doubt he would've been killed.

I don't think many people will disagree that if a real suicide bomber was killed in this fashion with a real threat to harming the public there'd be a problem.

It's bad intelligence. Bad intelligence led to this mans death. It's very sad and regretable. I personally don't blame the police with the guns. They did what they thought they had to do in the heat of it all. Though uniformed officers should have been used. If I came from a Brazilian ghetto and I had plain clothes people aiming guns at me and shouting in a language I don't understand I'm doing a runner too. If uniformed coppers had guns aiming at me I'm not moving an inch.

I have a freind in the police that actually informed me today the supposedly shoot to kill policy isn't the official protocol for the police to follow. Apparantly warning shots and rubber bullets are to be fired first. The police are going to get sued and lose.

True, but when you look at the context of the situation, was protocol prudent in this case, at that time? I mean, if they fire warning shots, or rubber bullets, and he still detonates the bomb (if he was a terrorist), it's all over anyways. I think the police will at least have a case, though I suspect they probably will lose, knowing how today's systems work.

True, but when you look at the context of the situation, was protocol prudent in this case, at that time? I mean, if they fire warning shots, or rubber bullets, and he still detonates the bomb (if he was a terrorist), it's all over anyways. I think the police will at least have a case, though I suspect they probably will lose, knowing how today's systems work. [/b][/quote]What if he was carrying a concealed hand grenade with no pin?

Well, that's been my point all along. The police didn't know whether he was a terrorist or not, and consequently, acted on their best judgement, and with the prejudice that was determined by the bombings.

Mmm. So if you were on the train, or your loved one was killed on the train by a suicide bomber who the police didn't stop, would you then be asking why they didn't stop him when they had the chance?

Hindsight is 20/20, and you're seeing perfectly. How were they supposed to know he wasn't a suicide bomber? If he hadn't darted for the subway car, I doubt he would've been killed. [/b][/quote]If, if, if ,if if...we having a saying in Ireland "If your granny had've had balls, she'd have been your grandad!"

There is one question no-one has raised. On 7th July a bus was blown up in London killing, I believe, 13 people. On 21st July, a terrorist tried to blow up another bus and failed. On 22nd July Mr de Menezes left his flat, got on a bus, entered a tube station and was shot, as it turns out, seven times in the back of the head and once in the back. The question is this, how come he was not a threat on the bus?? and yet became a threat as soon as it looked like he was going to buy a Tube ticket??

The people of London must be frightened enough by suicide bombers living in their midst. It's a pity we have to add to their fears with an armed police force acting on ignorance, mis-information, poor intelligence and prejudice. :rolleyes:

Sorry. You run from the cops, and dive on a train, days after a suicide bombing, and I'm blowing your ass away. It's as simple as that. No convictions about it.

Hopefully you never have a career as a law enforcement officer

The people of London must be frightened enough by suicide bombers living in their midst. It's a pity we have to add to their fears with an armed police force acting on ignorance, mis-information, poor intelligence and prejudice. :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]I fear the same thing everyday as I walk through the Port Authority Bus Terminal. 1) Will I be standing next to a bomber, 2) will I happen to make a wrong move and be mistaken for a bomber, or the person next to me and I happen to be in the path of bulletts.

That is right, just what the terrorist want. FEAR!

Then everyone should fight on what should be done about these scumbags. One group turning to the Government and saying keep us safe, you must keep us safe, it is your duty. While another group of (insert your own word here) is crying don't outstep your bounds or infringe on my rights. I don't want to live in a police state. oh, but put yourselves between those nasty bombers and me. Risk your life's so I can walk around without any problems. Of course I will go right along bitching about everything you try and do, because that is the way (blanks) are.

They bomb Egypt and its hotels to drive away the people. They left in droves along with the dollars that make livings for so many people. Cripple the way of life for everyone. Take down the major players at the base. The almighty Dollars.

Remember how two men crippled a whole city by shooting people at random. No one would go out to eat, shop or walk along the streets. Business were hurting and big time at that.People lost their jobs. Tourist would keep on driving rather then stay in that area. Others would duck down while pumping gas and then just take a half tank because they didn't want to be out to long in the line of fire.
The price we paid on 9/11 will live on and on thru fear by so many. That is right, just what the terrorist want. FEAR!

Hopefully you never have a career as a law enforcement officer [/b][/quote]Probably better, I'd shoot first, and ask questions later.

I'm pray we don't have a day where the cops don't shoot, and a terrorist blows himself up. I can hear the outpouring of condemnations towards law enforcement for not stopping him/her.

I hope I would never have to make that choice. But if it was him or me, You bet your ass I wouldn't think twice.

I still have not heard any consistent accounting of what happened. There are all kinds of stories out there, and I dont know how anyone can state an opinion until we know the facts. Is there anyone who can say with certainty what the facts were here? And if so how is it the London cops were saying one day that the dead guy was "definitely connected" with the attacks when they had to know this was a fabrication.

Spoken like a true lawyer.

Why am I not surprised to hear that.

I do so like a reasoned, rational approach to counter-terrorism!

Sure you'd watch him ... anyone would, it's only sensible. But would you shoot him? That's the point.

No-one's saying that the police shouldn't react at all to suspicious individuals, but only that they act proportionately and rationally. We need a policy of, and the means for, incapacitation and capture so that potential terrorists can be interrogated, yielding information. Wars are won by intelligence, not by tit-for-tat shootings.

Yup, I would have shot him. If he came thru my check point, didn't stop and tried to avoid the checkpoint, when confronted he ran,with three other agents also on the move and then ran to a train which I know was the targets of Terrorists during a large volume time period with thousands of people. Yup, I admit I would have shot the poor bastard. Yes, right in the head where I know there would be no explosives to set off.

so I guess everyone better be careful, because I may just be one of those sick bastards with a gun, looking for scumbags. So if its 90 plus outside, you better leave your coat at home!

Two days after major terrorist bombings, a man already under surveillance ignores police warnings to stop, and proceeds to dash towards a subway car, which is where one of the suicide bombings have occured.

Proportionally and rationally, what the hell is that supposed to mean? Should they have sat him down and invited him for tea? You talk about incapacitation, how do you know it would've worked, had he been a terrorist? What if he had detonated his payload?

You wanted the police to react in a situation that defied convention and rationality, where the split-second decision could've meant the death of a potential terrorist or the death of hundreds.

I want the members in this thread to explain to me what the police should've done when the man didn't stop running, went through thee subway checkpoints, and dove onto a subway car? What should they have done, proportionally and rationally?

Please, this isn't a vendetta killing. The London police didn't just round up some random man and killed him, they shot him because there was a legitimate chance he could've been a suicide bomber.

For that matter, incarceration is not good enough for these terrorists. I read an article the other day quoting one of the Guantanamo detainees who said that "as soon as he got out, I'd kill more Americans the first chance I could."

In fact, from the Washington Post:

Or from the AP...

Is this how you win a war? :rolleyes:

Two days after major terrorist bombings, a man already under surveillance ignores police warnings to stop, and proceeds to dash towards a subway car, which is where one of the suicide bombings have occured.[/QB][/quote]It is interesting that the full facts of this case have yet to come out. As yet there has been no CCTV footage released of Mr de Menenzes running anywhere. But somethings are not in dispute. Mr de Menenzes was not under surveillance. It was not 90 degrees plus, remember this was before 10:00am in the morning. The victim was not wearing a heavy winter coat. He was wearing what is known here as a "puffa jacket". Though these are bulky they are in fact quite light. It would be unusual to wear one on a summer's day but his man was from Brazil. I well remember the looks I got walking around Barcelona in a T-shirt in February while the locals were overcoats and scarves. I thought it was quite warm. They thought it was freezing! He did not break through any checkpoint.

The police found an address in one of the unexploded bombs. When they arrived at this address they found that it was an apartment block with 9 apartments. They were searching one apartment when Mr de Menenzes emerged from an apartment above on his way to work. The police decided to follow him. That was the extent of the surveillance and intelligence.

Why did Mr de Menenzes run?? Well it's a bit hard to ask him now.

Of course the question nobody can answer is...why didn't they shoot him on the bus???

The police have caught one of the terrorist that failed to blow up a bomb the other week! found him hiding in Birmingham, good news to say the least.

Did he run from the police and onto a bus? I swore it was a subway car..?

Did he run from the police and onto a bus? I swore it was a subway car..? [/b][/quote]Yes he was shot on the Tube (Subway), but he had got to the Tube station by bus. My question is, given that there had been a bus blown up on 07/07 killing 13 and an failed attempt to blow up a bus the previous day, and given the police believed this man to be a suicide bomber, how could the police be sure he wasn't going to detonate the bomb on the bus? Maybe there is a straight forward answer to this.

Just curious.

How forthcoming are the London police in these matters? Do they share their investigations with the media? I wonder if the U.S. new agencies or world agencies get a watered down version.

Just wondering.

What if you were deaf and your wife just sent you a text message to meet her at the hospital, she was in labor. You start running for the next train. You don't hear the police yelling at you to stop.

MaryCas,

The Police here are very measured about what they tell us - they do let us know what is going on, but only after a certain amount of time has passed and so as to not jeapodize the investigation. A fair amount of the info that we get in the media is from 'unconfirmed' sauces - and we normally hear a few different versions of the story before the truth comes out.

I think that the US news agencies sometimes give out more information than our own - for example, there were a number of photgraphs released yesterday from abc news that the UK networks bourght off them.

Just curious - what if a terrorist runs on a subway train, and the police don't stop him when they have the chance because they are afraid of political/legal repurcussions, and the terrorists detonates his bomb and kills 100's of people?

Since it's a "terrorist" running on to the train, I'd say that the police didn't do a good job.

Since it's a "terrorist" running on to the train, I'd say that the police didn't do a good job. [/b][/quote]Yeah and if he had room to run "on the train" then it wouldn't be rush hour, so he would not be much of a terrorist.

BUT WE DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS A TERRORIST, MAYBE HE WAS A DEAF GUY IN RUSH HOUR, OR SOME OTHER INNOCENT MAN WEARING A HEAVY COAT IN 90 DEGREE WEATHER!

Maybe one of our British friends here can give me the answer to something that I've been wondering about.

Isn't it true that the police in your country never carried guns? And is it true that only after the July 7th attacks that they started to carry guns? Were these "regular" policeman who didn;t carry guns before or were these "special" forces that always carried guns?


Don Cardi

DC, the regular British police do not carry arms as a matter of course. However of course there are certain units of the police force who are trained for situations where the use of arms might be necessary e.g. terrorist situation, hostage taking etc. The guys in the shooting of the Brazilian were probably special "undercover" type cops.

However since 07/07 a large number of the Transport Police who look after the underground system, have been armed specifically to deal with the current threat.

BTW it appears the guy who was shot was staying in Britain on an out of date visa...probably why he ran..thought it was immigration?

And to add to what Senza Mama has said. The regular police patrolling the streets (before 07/07) didn't carry guns but armed response units would be readily available at the nearest station. I live in a relatively small town of 60-70,000 and I never knew we had armed response units until about 4/5 years ago when someone I knew was playing with a toy gun in a public place. I doubt he'd repeat that again.

You're right. I've been watching the US news stations (mainly Fox) for a number of years now and when something big like what has happened recently it's easier to get a better understanding by flicking through the channels. The pictures which were on pretty much every newspaper cover yesterday were not suppossed to be released to us after highest of police requests but like you said ABC ran them and sold them.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.


Don Cardi

HUGE raids this morning in London, I was watching the news when "breaking news" flashed across at about 9 AM ET. The London police apparently tossed a couple of flash-bangs into one of the houses and captured 2 of the men who are involved in the bombings. West London, Liverpool Street, and in Rome, there were successful raids.

Four Bombers Held (Source: SKYNews)