Pat's Thoughts Volume 1: Voting Laws

I'm talking about how people had to be able to speak English to vote. The law was changed in the 70's saying that any US citizen could vote, even if they didn't speak English. Does anyone think it's time to go back to the old laws? I, for one, think it should definetly be changed back. -Pat

Bullshit. Many good Americans can't speek English. Don't allow them to vote and this is a step closer to Macarthisim.

1) Knowledge of basic English is required for citizenship already (except for some cases) and citizenship is required to vote...so what is the problem?

2) Newsflash: The United States doesn't have an official first language. De facto, maybe, but not de jure. And why ONE language? Look at Belgium, they're doing quite well and they have three official languages and several unofficial ones , including English. And Switzerland, South Africa, India, etc....

3) If trends continue, in 25 years Spanish will overtake English as the most common native language IIRC. Assuming that you're a young guy, are you prepared to learn spanish when this happens? After all, it will be the country's de facto "language".

4) Does not having a perfect command of the language mean they do not know politics? When has that stopped anyone before? I know several foreign students that know more about the workings of the US than your average Joe-Blow citizen.

Reply: 3)That's what I'm concerned about. Why should I have to learn a language from people who came into the country I was living in first? (Don't start about 'how we weren't the first ones here) If I went to Puerto Rico or a Mexico and decided to live there, I'd do my best to learn Spanish. If people are moving here from Spanish speaking countries, they should do their best to learn English. If they can't learn English, they don't belong here, just like we don't belong in their country if we can't learn their language.

Reply: 4) I didn't say they didn't know politics. I said an American should know the English language to vote. Do you think an immigrant who can't speak English and has 6 kids and is living on welfare using the checks to buy rims for his car and on expensive clothing knows his politics?

Half the "English-speaking" citizens of this country can't speak English properly either. They're the ones who shouldn't be allowed to vote, being too dumb to learn their own native language. At least Spanish-speakers are fluent in their language... :p

Now I'm all for people living in America, and still speaking thier original language, but I'm sick of seeing advertisements and signs in Spanish. If I went to Tibet, I wouldnt expect poeple to change thier signs and such just to accomadate me. Granted, they're not for just one Spanish speaker, but you get the point. I woulndt go so far as to say non English speakers dont belong here, but they should make some sort of effort to learn the language.

I think that anybody who has a decent understanding of the law, American History, and current events should have the right to vote regardless of race, sex, primary language, and especially age; but thats another argument. I think that every American should have to take a test before they have the right to vote, and once you pass, your eligible for life. If this was to happen, then many of the "elibible" voters today wouldnt get the right they shouldnt be able to excercise. I could say some things right now that would turn this thread into another political war but I really dont want to. Lets just say that certain people high up would never let this happen because it would kill their voter base.

Does your average Negro?

Most Spanish-speaking immigrants in this country are hard-workers, who will work for very little to nigh nothing, which can understandably arouse the hostility of their co-workers who will either be replaced very soon for another one of this new working man/woman or forced to keep up for his job's sake & even if he does he could be fired because the immigrant will work for less.

Their work ethic - induced by necessity no doubt - is pretty close to legendary in jobs no other Americans want part of - not even your heroic Negroes. It is with very few differences the same situation with immigrants everywhere, from Turks in Germany, to South Americans in Scandinavia - they move from impoverished lands to what they see as the land of milk & honey to do what those there want no part of. Personally I cannot blame Jose for not being able to speak English as an average, somewhat educated American would be able to; it isn't his language. But I agree with you in that they should at least have a working usage of the language if they wish to get anywhere. It's not their fault: the borders are open & their families starve or the immigrants understandably will want better lives for themselves; would you or whomever you consider to be your friends not do the same thing?

I don't find all 'Negroes' heroic, and I agree about most Spanish people having jobs. Mexicans probably have some of the worst jobs for shit pay, and I gie props to them. I actually work with Mexicans who speak both English and Spanish fluently. Those are not the people I'm talking about. Blacks in this country who can get a job are good people in my books. The Spanish people must get a job AND learn to speak English fluently. I don't care if it's "proper," but just as long as it's fluent enough to understand.

You say people come here looking for the "milk and honey," yet they're on welfare. Do you think that's right? I think welfare should only be used on single parents who need the money and/or people with a job, but they just can't make enough money to support their family. -Pat

Hey Pat all spanish spoken countries are not only mexico, puerto rico and cuba, and not all the spanish are ignorant without a education or have 6 kids for god sake, don´t speak about spanish in plurals okay, maybe you know more mexican or puerto rican there and some of them not all of course have that kind of profile, but not all we are the same, here in my far country CHILE we have some poverty like all the countries i guess, but we have an education and we´re not starve it, that´s the reason you don´t see a big emigration of chilean in the US, this is not for bothers you, but look all like the same is not good in my opinion, like exist mexicans, cubans, blacks with good education and skills, exist whites dumbs or viceversa, plus like exist spanish mestizos are white-spanish so used a category for people for their race is not always safe. bye peace

I don't think it's mandatory to speak English in order to be able to vote in America. "Everything" here in Southern California has an English/Spanish version. I would assume however, that anyone, English speaker or not, would be wise enough to read the material, pros/cons, etc, before he/she casts a vote.

That being said however, I have always believed that if one intends to live as a citizen of another country, you don't need to give up your heritage/customs, ect, but learning the langauge is a must. Not only will it benefit in daily life, jobs, but will also prevent the "foreigner" from being scammed, because there are those who depend on the lack of understanding.

Sometimes too, I feel perhaps, (at least here), we make it too easy for someone NOT to learn the langauge, because everything is Spanish/English (i.e. classrooms, churches, most any business here has bi-lingual employees). I understand to a degree it is necessary, and don't know exactly where a "cut-off" would be, but much depends too on how much the person wants to learn the langague, in which case, if he/she doesn't, who would be to blame if blame is to be given?


TIS

That person who is too lazy to learn should be blamed. It's now a rule that a high school student MUST take a foreign language ATLEAST 2 years. I had to take 2 years of Spanish for 9th and 10th grade, and I'll hopefully never have to use it. If I need to take foreign languages, why are some Spanish people in Southern California allowed to attend all Spanish schools? I'm guessing that they wouldn't have to learn English there. -Pat

Patrick,

I wasn't referring to "all" Spanish speaking schools. Every school here in my area, including mine, and throughout So. CA, has ESL program (English Second Language) courses meaning there is a Spanish speaking teacher. The hope is that after a certain amount of time, the student can be "mainstreamed" (in regular English speaking classes).Since mine is a middle school, I am sure the hope would be to go on to the high school with a decent knowledge of English, which unfortunately doesn't always happen.

TIS

Pat, I guarantee when you're a little older your attitude will change, if not, you'll probably be lost down a line of, from what I've experienced, uneducated ignorant people. But I know you're attitude will change as you get older, you're a smart guy.

They can speak pig latin as far as I am concern. If they must pay taxes, why shouldn't they have a say in the direction that the government is going?

Bah, become an illegal alien. You have all constitutional protections and rights, without having to pay taxes or vote. :p

No shit.

My orginal statement should have read:
illegal aliens cannot vote but they do pay sales taxes. Everyone pays taxes!

Right, I suppose you'd be correct saying they'd pay sales tax, but then again, so do Canadians coming across the border, so do people who visit this country from all over the world, regardless of their diplomatic status.

But illegal aliens certainly don't pay income taxes, property taxes, et al.

I wonder what they would fill out on their 1040 for "permanent home address" ???

I agree with Patrick on this one. I know this is a late reply, but I'm just starting to read his "thoughts" on these subjects. I don't want to sound racist (because Lord knows I am not) but I feel if you move to a country, then you should learn the language. I feel things should be in English. I mean, if I moved to Mexico or Russia, I'd learn Spanish or Russian (I'd be at a total disadvantage if I didn't because not EVERYTHING in Russia or Mexico is in English.) Also, if we start offering things in both English & Spanish, then where does it stop? What's the next language gonna be??

If you truly believe what you are saying, this information below might be helpful to you.



http://travel.state.gov/renunciation.html



A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:

appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
sign an oath of renunciation

Renunciations that do not meet the conditions described above have no legal effect. Because of the provisions of section 349(a)(5), Americans cannot effectively renounce their citizenship by mail, through an agent, or while in the United States.

Employers withhold federal and state taxes based on W-4 forms, and I've never seen an option that says: "do not withhold taxes - I'm an illegal alien"! The IRS is one organization that no one - not Al Capone - and certainly not any foriegner can easily escape. Also, anyone that doesn't pay property taxes simply loses their property (i.e. ever heard of government property auction sales?).

So you're saying that a mexican who comes over the border, picks his fruit, and then goes back to mexico is going to file some W-2's? Or that the IRS is going to hastily pursue him for "taxes..." what taxes?

---

Perhaps more specifically...say "Cheech" comes from Tijuana to come live with his buddy "Chong" and sneaks across the border. He lives in his buddies house, but nobody thinks anything about it. One day, he gets hit by a car. He has rights as a citizen, yet does not pay into the system or contribute in any way other than growing pot in his friends house.

Pat- How are immigrants supposed to learn a new language when tnhey have to work with two different jobs a day in order to maintain their family. With the little wages they earn they need to work more than the average American worker. They don't have time for recreation, much less to study a new language.
Do you know hard is for an adult to learn any language. I learned English with great facility because I started learning by watching American cartoons at age 4. But when trying to learn French last year, it was harder for me. You can't grasp a new idiom as easily in your adulthood.
You should try learning Spanish sometime, even if its broken. Or any idiom for that matter. Were you aware that if you knew more than 1 language you had a higher intellectual level and a wider cultural knowledge?

Don Sonny Corleone- Those Spanish bilboards are not only aimed for the Spanish-only sepaking populations. Billingual people are aimed to. Do you seriously think that all of the billingual Hispanics speak English in their homes with their families? Besides, most of those bilboards are either about Hispanic products and billboards by Univision and Telemundo.

I have now become aware that most of the American public is not fully knowleadagable of the struggles of the Hispanic immigrant. Many treat these people like shit when most of them are hard-workers that came here to give a better future to their families. Maybe that's because I watch Univision and Telemundo. You should all try sometime, even if you don't understand. Is fascinating how there's another world within the country.

Giorgio Luigi Gambino

You think that all immigrants have 2 jobs? :rolleyes: Give me a break. I don't think the Puerto Rican or Black guy who comes through the drive thru trying to be gangsta and paying with $100 bills has a job, unless you consider drug dealing a job.

As far as learning a language, I unfortuantely HAD to take 2 years of Spanish because 2 years of a language MUST be taken to get into a 4 year college. That is ABSOLUTE bullshit. If I have to learn Spanish, then Spanish should be forced to learn English. -Pat

I know what you mean Pat. 3 years ago at my HS we were offered Italian, French. Latin or Spanish . They no longer offer Italian French or Latin. You have to take Spanish.

Yeh, it's bullshit. I had to take Latin in 7th and 8th grade too which doesn't even exist anymore. All that we could take was German, Latin, or Spanish in high school. They literally pleaded with us to take Spanish because as SB informed me the other day, the United States of America's main language will unfortunately be Spanish in 25 years. -Pat

Our local area WIC office had a job opening. My mother was overly qualified so she tried to get the job. She didn't get that job because job because she wasn't fluent in Spanish. What kinda shit is that?

Yeh, it's absolute bullshit. I bet some Spanish person who can't speak English is the one who got it too. I personally think Bush needs to focus more on descrimination against Whites, then that of minorities. It seems like the White race is being pushed away from all the equalities we should have. No one is brave enough to stand up and say it though. -Pat

It's only unfortunate if you don't speak Spanish. I'm almost fluent in Spanish. I can understand it, but I have to think before I speak it.

This begs that famous question asked by a professor at NY City College:

If you somehow magically turned black, how much would you pay to become white again?