The Confederate Flag - should it stay or go?

It stays, if it goes now, it'll gain a guaranteed rep in 100 years as basically a swastika, and that's totally wrong

I believe it should stay. If we ban flags for their history then we might ban every flag that existed.
And you cant ban a flag for the actions of some individuals.

I've seen from digging around online that the Confederate flag wasn't even the flag of the Confederacy. It was apparently the north virginia battle flag or something like that. According to what I read, it only became popular throughout the south after the rise of the kkk. Nobody is banning it anyway, they just won't be flying it over state buildings and public property. That's fine with me tho, the civil war has been over for a long time now. They lost.

Agree, the Eleven States that took up the Confederate challenge were defeated.

Each State had their own colors, should they all be banned?

I say yes, you should not fly a defeated banner that stood against Old Glory.

1. It should be removed off my state's flag since we're the Magnolia State not Confedrate state.
2. It can stay up on people's personal display despite being a lost cause.

Confederate flag is old news take it down who cares.

What I hate is The people who think it is a big deal. But when the same people think burning and stepping on the American flag in this country they have no problem with that at all.

If I see someone do that to the American flag they better have a lot of people around to protect their arse. I will admit I don't see a lot of that anymore. But during the Vietnam I did first hand.

The Red Stars and Bars is a battle flag. It was NOT the flag of the Confederacy.

As for the rest I'm going to keep my mouth shut on this whole issue. Next you know it the South will be the only ones to ever own slaves as well.

@Dixie,

We're all adults here.Unless a person is trolling or being rude/racist, people should feel free to express their opinions. BF, you and a few others here are actually from the South, so your opinions hold a lot of weight.

I have opinion about the topic, but I'm certain it's not as informed as a person who lives in the South or is from there.I grew up with lot of people from the Cackalackas(NC and SC) and Alabama so I do have some understanding of the what the flag means to them, but you should always feel comfortable stating your opinion.

My thoughts: to waste all this time and energy on an outdated flag is really stupid and not even getting to the heart of the issue as to why this kid went off and killed 9 people. A flag is fabric, it's not an attitude. Dylan Roof didn't stab 9 people with a flag pole with a Confederate Flag.

That being said I do believe that the flag has no place at government buildings. We owe our respect to one flag, the stars and stripes. The Confederacy was defeated 150 years ago, they lost. But I will say that it's not just a pure symbol of hatred and oppression. It means a great many things, including to many Southerners who carry no prejudice.

We must protect the right of private citizens to fly it if they please. Banning it doesn't solve anything. It won't bring back 9 poor souls, it won't stop it being coveted by those who hold racism in their hearts, and it would be a form of censorship.

Pull it down from the capitol and government buildings. But defacing statues? Removing 'offensive' Confederate monuments? Rename schools and buildings? No.

Nets, pretty much what was said above is pretty much what I agree with and I'm a staunch Confederacy advocate since so much of my family fought in the war (as did many that fought for the Union as well, I do support BOTH sides believe it or not). Most of the time it's the battle flag that's flown anyways and that is the wrong flag that should be flying to begin with, but none should be flying over gov't grounds unless they are honoring every flag the city/state has ever been under like Pensacola Florida does.

As for what the Confederate flag means to me it means Southern heritage. Standing up for what we thought was right at the time. Like it or not slavery was apart of AMERICAN SOCIETY at the time, on BOTH SIDES of the issue. That is not what I'm celebrating or honoring when I say I honor the flag. Just like the U.S. flag, I support it but not everything associated with it. I've seen a lot white and black stand up for the rebel flags as we kind of take pride in being from the South since we are looked down upon from other areas. I'd say there is less racism here now than compared to other states and areas. But what chaps my ass is to be called a racist because I support the flags, that is more racist than I am flying the damn flag.....lol.

But no matter what people will call us racist for supporting the flag so I'm in a no win situation and the main reason I don't care to talk about it anymore.

In an area where I live I once noticed a confederate flag being flown over a U.S. MARINES flag, on a beach.

I noticed this on the way out towards the Ocean and pointed it out to my friends on the boat, when returning several hours later it was gone.

We heard later in that weekend that it had caused an altercation with several Vets who were also on the beach and the flag was taken down, by them, with extreme force.

The man flying the flag left and never returned as far as I know.

Would this even be a issue if that nut job didn't kill those people in Charleston?

There's an infamous photograph of a Black man being struck with an American flag in 1970s Boston, I believe around the City Hall area. People were protesting the "busing" issue.

One man held him up while another guy essentially stabbed him with the US flag.

For years I thought it had to be staged but it was a real picture. I won't post it here but easy to look up.

Worth noting that this ugly incident took place in one of the more progressive Northern states.

what else are you going to ban? are you going to erase history because you don't like history.

the confederate flag is a symbol of the young men who fought and died in warfare. I have family generations back who fought for Georgia in the civil war, my grandmother had a picture of her uncle who died in the civil war, he was 13 years old.

that's how young some of them were towards the end of the war, they fought and went down with honor, of the soldiers who died less than 1% owned slaves.

if you ban the flag over slavery, are you going to erase the first 15 presidents, who either owned or condoned slavery,

are you going to erase the burning of Atlanta where thousands upon thousands of women and children were burned to death.

if you start erasing history where does it end??

I was shocked to read that Warner Brothers have removed the flag from all official Dukes of Hazard merchandise, Apple have also removed it from their games.

This is a total overreaction imo, what's next, will they start rewriting history in case it causes offence to some special snowflake.

Apparently the guy holding the flag was trying to hit the lawyer with the flag pole, but in the photo it looks like he's trying to spear him. It also appears that there's a man holding the lawyer in place for the man holding the flag to attack him, but he actually helped pick up the attorney after he was knocked down. Things aren't always what they seem. It turned out the that man with the flag was a teenager who had serious mental problems and allegedly killed his brother's girlfriend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soiling_of_Old_Glory
http://www.usnews.com/news/national/arti...mous-photograph

Exactly. Sherman destroyed a lot of innocents livelihood and made them homeless. Funny how that is forgotten. If that was Lee or Forrest they would have been hung...

F1,

Thanks for the correction.I saw a clip years ago that confirmed that it was NOT a staged photo,so I believed what my eyes saw. F the loser holding the flag pole as a weapon though. Guy in the Charleston killing will probably claim serious mental issues too.

Interesting points, Binnie.
That's why I think that even with the most delicate topics, that people should be allowed to speak their opinions. Your comment about the age of the soldiers and the tiny % of them who owned plantations speaks to the ETERNAL issue of the "pezzonovante getting others to fight their wars" as written in the GF.

Jesus we are a childish society.

No discussion of the real issues- mental illness, what to do with mental illness, how to keep guns away from the mentally ill, etc.

Just blowhard, feel good herd mentality of "DOING SOMETHING". Even when the doing something is childish, dangerous iconoclastism. I respect the libs tho- with every crisis- they always play the blackmail game- it is always give us something we want completely unrelated to the real issues.

How will you keep a gun out of the hands of the mentally ill. When you can walk into any bodega in Harlem and after they know you. You can buy anything you want that is illegal like guns, drugs, etc.

There is a new show starting this Sunday on the Glenn beck channel starring four retired navy seals. They just sit and talk about what's going on in the world today. I found the promos very interesting. It is worth watching.

He was dead on too. Both sides had a draft going on and most had no choice but to fight. Some thought fighting was a better life than living life as a poor farmer as most Southerners were back then.

With the exception of my earlier family line in Virginia and North Carolina we owned ZERO slaves. My 4th Great Grandfather had the bright idea to move to Alabama from North Carolina (with a stop in Georgia in between) from his family who were pretty well off. I think his Father actually owned at least 13 slaves that we know of as they were willed to the kids, but the 4th was already in Alabama or Georgia when his Dad died so he didn't get the slave that was willed to him. From then on we were pretty freaking poor. Almost 200 years later and I live 20 miles West of where my family first moved to in Alabama. Some of my cousins still live on that land today. We had a good bit of land, but were nothing but poor farmers. That defined my whole family pretty much on both sides. My Mom's side was about an hour South of my Dad's, and they were just poor farmers and bootleggers as well. Her side definitely owned no slaves either.

But if you let the media tell it, we ALL owned slaves back then and that simply was not the case. We were all like Leonardo Di Caprio in Django and that definitely was not the case. Most of my folks grew up in freaking shacks. My Great Grandfather couldn't even read or write for God's sake. My Great Grandfather on my Mom's side lost his Dad at 4 and had to stay home to farm and make whiskey to support his family. Then lost two kids before they hit 30 on top of losing a brother when he was young too due to fever.

That tells you how great we were living before and after the Civil War.

Interesting post,Dixie. I'm glad you continue to post in this thread.

In the North, the freshly arrived immigrants...mostly poor Irish were sent into battle for the Union. If I had to guess, the male sons of the wealthy families in both the N and S had loopholes to avoid fighting.

This is slightly off topic, and again..not a Southerner so maybe it makes my opinion less valid , but I always felt that "white supremacy" "the klan" etc was a grand illusion meant to control and manipulate the poor and working class whites in the South and other parts of the country. Pezzonovante , is and was always interested in the color green primarily and if they were/are able to distract the masses and keep them divided, the focus is taken off of them and the things they do to maintain their wealth and power. I think it would startle some working class whites then and now if they realized that the pezzos. view them with as much disdain as they(some of the white working class) view Blacks and others.

Wouldn't startle me. Wealthy WASPs hate everyone but themselves and money. They look down on EVERYONE.

that is a true statement, and look at the way the draft worked. in every war if you were in college you got a deferment from war, wasps were the least of every combat veteran, especially in viet nam.

seems funny they are always on god's side. it's called programming, amd conditioning.

j. edgsr hoover was a typical wasp. that's the mindset.

im a wasp myself, and there our lots of us who never ate the ruling class horsehit.

Don’t worry Confederate flag supporters, you may have lost the battle but you haven’t lost the war! Oh wait.........

Hey we aren't all bad haha

While we're generally talking about old money eastern seaboard Brahmins..there are a few members of every ethnic group who have entered the pezzonovante "club". Wasn't my intent to single out "wasps", bees, hornets, etc

No offense taken gets. PB knows who I am and we joke around about it. It's all in good fun.

To speak from a perspective from someone who does come from a family of WASPS, I know plenty of those old eastern seaboard money types and there are some real arrogant dickheads who keep anyone out who isn't white and Protestant. I can safely say my family is not like that, but even today there some who carry those attitudes.

Rule #1.
Know there will always be someone who does not like you or where your from or what you do or what you have.

Rule #2.
FUCK EM

Like I've always said, in the North you paid to not go to war, I think for $300 (it could have been more) you could have "bought" your way out of the draft in the Union and appoint someone to serve in your place. If you were poor you went to war when your name was drawn. In the South, money got you a commission in the CSA Army as a Colonel or higher. Hell Nathan Bedford Forrest had ZERO military training before the war, but he made so much money slave trading he was able to "start" his own cavalry and became a General right off the bat. Like you said bro, the rich ones started the war and the poor ones fought it. It's still like that today, look at the majority of the kids that join the Services, they do so because they can't afford schooling and let the government pay for it and take their chances at going to war.

great post, I love it.

Pizza keeps a jar of Grey Poupon in the back seat of his car. He'll pass it to you, if you ask.

Thanks for the correction. It was all hands on deck in the South, so money wouldn't have gotten you a pass, but a position far from the front lines.

The world is so polarized now with "side" vs "side" that some Southerners are afraid to publicly clarify some of these points and their take on the flag issue. I say let people speak for themselves and draw your own conclusion.

I brought up the social class issue because pezzo's doing the same thing today. Insults my intelligence to see "hawks" speak on political shows about what "we" should be doing...""WE" "US" "OUR" when nan one of them (yes,nan one of them, told you I grew up with Southerners) or anyone in their family will enlist to fight and they will be the only ones benefiting from the conflict.MFers are geniuses the way they are able to craft their messages via the media and convince joe average that national interests and security are what the potential conflicts are about. "WE" "US" "OUR"
There are times when military might is needed to protect national interests and security long term and short term but not as much as we are being lead to believe.

regarding "WE "US " OUR

going back to the first Iraqi war, out of 535 members of congress, only one had a son fighting in the war.

in the Vietnam war, you would be hard put to find any congressmans or senators sons fighting in that war either.

the way the hawks frame the war debates, they are puppets speaking for their masters, [ the defense industry, the war making machine]

Binnie,

What is a bit surprising is that there aren't more children of elected officials or war proponents in the service academies.

Going back to the flag, I hope the national debate can bring some of the issues you and Dixie brought up out there.

When we were kids, the Dukes of Hazzard was everybody's favorite show...and if I dig deep enough I'm sure I can find pictures of my buddies with General Lee t shirts on....which is absolutely hilarious.

I was and am for removing the Confederate flag (ANY Confederate flag) removed from governmental bodies, but it's a different ballgame when it comes to pressuring and harassing businesses and private individuals to do the same thing.

There used to a popular saying that went "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll fight for you're right to say it." The original say is "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" and is often attributed to Voltaire, but actually comes from a biography of Voltaire and illustrates his view of freedom of speech.

The U.S. Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech" but government has now turned this on its head. It's not just against the PERSONAL USE of the Confederate flag, but anything that the Far Left doesn't like. That's why it's wrong to call them "liberals." They're fascists.

You nailed it. The South couldn't give up the manpower and the North could. Atlanta I'm guessing was probably the biggest city in the South back then? And it was by no means what it is today numbers wise. The North had NYC which probably dwarfed the CSA alone, much less Philly, Boston, etc. to go along with them. The CSA couldn't afford a war of attrition and yet they played right along with it.

But what gets me when people see I stand behind the flag they see and think racist. Yet my school was in a community of 400 people (but we pulled from the bigger cities around us but not much) and the school only had like 320 in K-12 (yes I went to one school my whole life). It was probably 80% black, so we spent many years together and we took up for each other. There was no racist stuff at our school, and we were quick to back each other up especially during games as it was an us against the world mentality in all sports. Let us go to Sand Mountain area which is extreme NE Bama and back then all white (99% white rural schools) and let one say ni**er and we were all ready to fight over it. All my classmates would say the same about each other too when it comes to something like this. To me America needs more of something like that. We didn't see black and white and just didn't care to. We wore stuff with the Rebel flag on it and nobody thought nothing about it. We shared drinks, Skoal, and sometimes girls But today if you wear anything with the flag on it you'll be escorted out of school.

What happened is my question? We had no problem over it and I was an 80's and 90's school kid so nobody can say it was the 60's South and everyone was afraid to speak up.

Take it out of State and Federal Buildings, but don't let The Left turn it into a fucking Swastika. Because it's also a sign of Southern pride.

Southerners are judged unfairly to begin with, whether they're White or Black (redneck, inbred, etc.). So for those people with a flag at their home or on their car, just leave them the fuck alone.

Very well said. I can even agree with taking it off State and Federal buildings as well. Taking down memorials, statues, and digging up bodies is just too damn crazy IMHO. And you really hit it on the head about Southern pride. It's hard to put into words, I guess because we went through so much together in the Civil Rights days, Reconstruction, etc. it has made us closer than outsiders think and we are not as racist and inbred as people think either. Yes there are still weirdos here for sure, but that is anywhere. I have never wanted to kiss a cousin and never had a sister so...

Also I think we are more dependent on living off the land than most outsiders in the West and North because you live so close to everything. We don't, so many times we fished and hunted to eat and make money among other things and we take great pride in that.

When my oldest kid was young he wanted the Dukes of hazard show was big he wanted the car for Christmas with the confederate flag on the roof. I looked for the car every where but no one had it. It sold out fast I think I found it in queens.

Me I dug daisy duke I wonder if she had a confederate flag tattooed on her ass?

Agreed, that's insane. Like, Rosie O'Donnell insane.

I don't know but she needs to prove it!



Rosie marrying her woman and having kids insane

People comparing the Confederate Flag to the Swastika are making a really bad yet odd comparison.

Something many people don't realize is the Swastika derives from the Sanskrit word 'svastika' which means "good fortune" roughly translated in English. Hindus believe it to be a good luck charm against evil forces. The symbol itself represents the four directions of Brahma, which is akin to God in the Hindu religion. The four directions represent four objects of mankind's pursuit which in this case are natural order, wealth, desire and liberation. It is painted in many shrines.

To make a long story short, we in the West know that Adolf Hitler took that symbol, with his wrongful assumptions about the 'Aryan Race' and used it as his party's flag. Started the second World War, tried to kill all the Jews, lost, killed himself, the Allies won and there was much rejoicing.

The point I'm trying to make is that the Swastika was not always a symbol of hate and anti Semitism, and it still isn't. It's meaning was corrupted in the eyes of West, which is why it's frowned upon by most and even banned in Germany.

The stars and bars have a complex history as well. It was never officially adopted as the Confederate Flag as I should have mentioned earlier, rather it was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. After the war, it was used by many pro segregationists and violent groups (the KKK being one) as a symbol of their beliefs.

But like the swastika, a symbol can evolve. In today's south there are probably people who still see it in a prejudiced and racist light. However I think the majority see it as a vehicle of southern pride and loyalty. I've seen blacks wear the colors as well. States rights and anti- big government are two other representations as well. To say it only represents oppression and bigotry is not only misleading, it is historically inaccurate and irresponsible.

It's not an dilemma to deal with. It will and should be removed from state and government buildings. But I'm going to play devil's advocate:

Where the hell was this outrage a year ago? Up until that shooting no one was talking about this. Not a soul. Now because some nutjob shot up a black church it's all of a sudden imperative we stop selling it and curse its name. I call that selective outrage and hypocrisy. Not only are gutless politicians using this as an opportunity for future votes, but it doesn't even get to the root of WHY Dylan Roof decided to do what he did. Even more ironically, sales of the Confederate Flag are up 3600% since Amazon announced it was banning it! FYI to all these idiots, it's not making people want the flag less.

We as a country have to decide what's more important. Hyper sensitivity to feelings and emotional sentiments or discussion. A well thought out dialogue that addresses the tragedy in a pragmatic responsible way. I don't pretend to know the answer, but there's a way to get it. And this is NOT it. Political posturing and bogus outrage over something with a far more multifaceted history than people realize is the exact opposite direction we need to take.

Hell if the blacks can make the n-word, once a supremely derogatory insult, into something positive, the same can be said for the flag despite it's controversial past.

But I don't expect much from today's populace. What's going on right now is just another example of my disappointment.

@Rockstar,

Very good post.
There have been efforts to remove the flag from state buildings/state seals/govt. logos,etc for decades. I think that certain sports organizations will not have championship events in certain states over this, I don't think the NCAA hosts any championship or tourney events in SC or some other states over this. This isn't a new movement, it's just picked up steam because of the outrageous act by the coward in SC.

There are some southerners of different colors who are repulsed by the image of the flag, as there are members of ethnic groups who are repulsed by the slurs they were tagged with by the mainstream culture here. And there are Southerners of different colors who see the flag as part of their region heritage and members of various ethnic groups who have co-opted slurs as part of their personal identities.,

It's an individual choice. While we certainly cannot tell people which symbols or words to identify with , we also cannot tell people which symbols and words should or should not offend them personally. I agree with you that there has to be dialogue, not this "doing it for TV" posturing from talking heads on the boob tube.
These types of honest conversations on net forums are a step in the right direction. I've said before that people shouldn't have to apologize for existing and breathing air, and it's something I really believe. I am who I am with my ideas, beliefs, and views, shaped by my personality,background,rearing,heritage,life experiences and the next man is who he is shaped by a different background and experiences. We will surely not agree on all or most things. I mean, those of us from big families won't even agree on most issues with our SIBLINGS so the idea that people will or should agree on everything is kind of a joke. I feel that healthy exchange of honest views is always a good thing and that outside of actively trying to hurt/offend people or infringe on the rights and freedoms of others that people should be free to be who they are.

Actually the NCAA didn't enforce that ruling, South Carolina baseball actually hosted a regional in baseball after the ruling. That is the playoffs in college baseball.

@Dixie,

Are you sure, because I thought SC and Miss. couldn't hold regional or national championship matches.

How did the SC baseball team get around the ruling?

Wasn't this year my bad, it was last year but still. Not sure how they got around it.

No it needs to stay.

Quick history lesson: After the French and Indian war, the Cajun's in Acadia were sold into slavery by the British (I'm white by the way). The Confederacy freed the Cajuns during the civil war. So by removing the flag you are erasing my peoples history and the reason we became free. But I guess that's cool my history can be tread upon because my ancestors were white slaves and not black. smh

And now they're pulling Dukes of Hazard episodes on TV Land. Taking the flag away from government buildings is understandable, but taking away video games and tv shows because of the flag? This country has gone soft.

Amen. Don't forget the mayor of Memphis wants to dig up Nathan Bedford Forrest (and wife) and move them from a park in Memphis too. A fucking shame.

First time hearing about this. But, yeah sadly from what I have seen on the internet only POC's can slaves. I really hope your history can survive this, and be taught to future generations.

Also, has anybody brought up that NY film critic who believes that Gone with the Wind should be banned?

Never liked the movie any way.

http://www.irehr.org/issue-areas/race-ra...te-flag-removal

Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan to Protest Confederate Flag Removal
Devin Burghart 07.01.2015

Following the brutality of Charleston church massacre, the continued presence of the Confederate battle flag over the South Carolina Statehouse ignited a national discussion about racism. Now, a North Carolina Ku Klux Klan faction has inserted itself into the already volatile mix.

“If you’re white and proud, join the crowd,” declared the hotline of the Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, announcing the Confederate flag rally. The Pelham, North Carolina-based Klan faction, which calls itself the “largest Klan in America,” filed a permit noting they expect between 100 and 200 people to attend a July 18 rally on the north side of the building, near the Confederate soldier memorial where the Confederate battle flag is currently flown.

In addition to “standing up for our Confederate history,” the Loyal White Knights have also been standing up for Dylann Roof, the white nationalist accused of the Charleston murders. According to the group’s hotline, Roof was a “young warrior.” Loyal White Knights Grand Dragon, Robert Jones, told the Post and Courier the Roof was “heading in the right direction; wrong target.”

While supporting the murders generally, Jones disagreed with the targets and the church location. According Jones, Roof “should have actually aimed at the African-American gang-bangers, the ones who are selling the drugs to white youth, the ones who are robbing and raping every chance they get.”

Just days after the Charleston shooting, the Loyal White Knights littered lawns in Alabama, California, Goergia, Kansas, and Mississippi with plastic baggies filled with pieces of candy and Klan contact information. The effort is a slight twist on the "newspaper nightriding" that the American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan popularized during the 1990s, where they would tuck Klan propaganda inside free newspapers and throw them on lawns in the middle of the night.

The Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan formed back in 2012 out of the collapse of the Rebel Brigade Knights of Ku Klux Klan. The Loyal White Knights burst onto the scene with a March 2013 Memphis rally protesting the city’s decision to rename three parks, including one named for Nathan Bedford Forrest, a Confederate General and first national leader of the Ku Klux Klan.

That's absurd. Why not pull every show from the '50s and '60s that didn't feature Black characters?

Bend over backwards liberalism run amok. I weep for the future of this country. And I'm serious, too.

Fuck this guy. He should die a slow and painful death.

There are articles quoting the words of the designer of one of the early versions of the flag.

Here is a google books preview of a book which lists the words of William Thompson about the flag



William Thompson-proposed designs for the 2nd conf. flag

Hopefully with the next elections, something might change. But, nothing will change the media who will report whatever, just for the ratings, even if it hurts this country the most.

Klan getting involved in the debate clouds the message that others are trying to convey about what the flag might mean to them.
When the thug element got involved in the civil protests against police brutality, they ended up having a similar effect.
Many people chose to dismiss or ignore the points that people were trying to make because the thugs overshadowed them, KKK is drawing a line in the sand and will drown out all of the points made here.

They are actually going to help the case for the people calling for the end of the flag.

The reason the kkk gets involved with this shit is to try and recruit new members.

I agree. I think they will get a lot more donations than members though. From a tactical standpoint, makes sense for them exploit the flag controversy.

Tell me about it, PB. My generation makes me sick.

Yep they are marching in Columbia or Charleston on the 17th of this month I think? The Sons of Confederate Veterans (not a hate group) wrote a letter to the Klan today telling them to keep the Confederate flag out of it and that they shouldn't use it (we know they will for sure now) and then told them they should be ashamed for their views. I guarantee you that doesn't get any play in the media. People will be too stupid to even look at something like this too.

I live in Spring Hill, FL. It borders Brooksville, FL. My family comes from Long Island but I've been here most of my life. In school most of my friends were rednecks. Most were/are racist and enjoy their rebel flags. I could give two shits. When I was younger I had to spend a couple of weeks in a Tampa jail. On the outside, the blacks want to cry racism all day. When I was in jail, it was the other way around. The blacks were the racist ones. It was like reverse 1950's "what you looking at you white motherfucer?"I feel that the south lost and they should let it go. Then I see all the hispanic flags, the blacks still blaming the white man for everything, and all of the other ethnic bullshit that goes on throughout this country. Anyways, this past Saturday 6/27/2015, a group of activists from Tampa packed in a minivan heading to Brooksville's courthouse to remove the confederate flag and burn it. What a big mistake for those idiots. They were confronted by Brooksville ( a good portion of the town, both black and white). Those activists were scared away and failed at their agenda. This is a perfect example of how people need to worry about themselves and their town. If this was back in the 1960's you could guarantee those activists would have been executed. It was also nice to see a community to band together and standup for what they believe in. This country has so many problems right now but somehow gay marriage and confederate flags are on the top of the priority list? If they can make an amendment for gay marriage, they should make an amendment that gay or straight cannot get divorced after they get married. It would make people think twice before getting married. Also, there should be an application for those who plan to have children. Just like getting a mortgage, if you cant afford them don't bring them into this world!

You can't erase history. How else can we learn from our mistakes?

You can say what you want about Southern pride, but that flag is also linked to slavery, segregation, the KKK, and a belief system that purports that some people are less than.

Do I think it should be banned? No. Do I think it should fly in front of courthouses and state houses and schools? No. Do I think that the Dukes of Hazzard and corresponding merchandise should be yanked from TV and stores? Ridiculous.

Removing the flag from public spaces is probably long overdue, but that doesn't mean we should try to wipe its existence off the earth.

www.cajunmafia.com

In the history part it explains most of what really happened.

http://www.cajunmafia.com/category/cajun-history/cajun-genocide/death-and-slavery

that's actually the page

LaL-

I looked through the site at your link, but the question I can't find the answer to is whose slaves were the Cajuns that were freed by the confederacy mentioned in your post. Who owned them when the CSA free them? France?

Slightly off topic, but completely relative to the conversation:

Look how much, and more importantly, how intelligently, both Dixie and LaLou have added to this debate. They're obviously both very intelligent young guys, LaLou has served our country (for which I'm grateful), and yet Southerners are often pre-judged for being "dumber" than their Northern counterparts.

And, hey, I've made jokes about the Ozarks and the like in my day. But I'm not a politically correct guy and it was all in fun. But when you read what these two great posters have to say about their "neck of the woods," and what that flag means to Southern pride, you can only draw one objective conclusion:

As far as personal use goes, the flag stays. It means too much to these folks. That's not my usual "two cents." That's a period, with an exclamation point!

I don't think personal use is in question. We, as a nation, have never banned anything like that private citizens. And I don't think we're going to start now, despite what certain pundits would like people to believe.

Jeez,even the ACLU has defended the rights of American Nazis and the KKK to exercise free speech. Yes, those 'libruls'

You don't get much more open in regard to expression than that. It is one of the things about America that is truly great. An that's not chest thumping jingoistic nonsense. There's plenty wrong here,but we do get some things absolutely right.


For full disclosure- I don't want it on government buildings. But if anyone wants to walk around dressed head to toe in the battle flag, or put it on their lawn, I'll support their right.

Very well put. You're a smart broad, Helen.

Hey, that's for last night .

What the article didn't point out is that there is no national Klan organization anymore and that the Klan name is in the public domain and can be used by anyone, including this group of lowlifes.

Not surprising that they support Dylann Roof. They deplore that he murdered people in a church and said he should have fired on gangbangers, but what they don't seem to realize is that beside being an evil murderer, Roof is (and was) a coward. After all, why hasn't this Klan group gone into some gang-infested neighborhood to try their crap there? Because they're also cowards.

Thank you Pizzaboy, you're no slouch in the brains department yourself.


And I don't mind broad. It's old school, like me. Broads and fellas, its all good.

Yea it only goes up to 1785 slightly under a hundred years before the war. A lot of people don't know this but there were Indians that live in the swamps of Louisiana like the Chitimatcha, Tunica, Choctaw etc. that felt the Cajuns were invading on their territory. The plantation owners were more around New Orleans and north towards Mississippi. The Indians would do raids all over the south in Cajun Country and capture the women and kids and sale them into slavery. This was mostly all undeveloped land where the plantations were so the wealthy were buying slaves of all color.

It's less known throughout history but it numbered in the thousands that were sold back into slavery over the next 100 years until the Civil War. When that happened the confederacy told all slaves that fought would be granted their freedom. Kinda like in the American Revolution when the British told the african american slaves if they fought they would be freed.

Thank you. It was driving me crazy because I couldn't find the answer to my question

The only thing I knew until now about Cajuns during the war was that many refused to fight on either side, which I admired. I like that type of independence.

Thanks. I hate that stereotype more than anything but I'm also not stuck up enough that I will laugh along at it too if that makes sense. Like I told someone on facebook yesterday, my family hasn't owned slaves since my 5th Great Grandfather which was well before the war. I won't apologize for them because they were not the only ones to own slaves, and I won't apologize because it had nothing to do with me nor did I have a hand in it. As I've said before, I had two Grandfather's on the CSA side, the 37th and 47th Alabama, one died at Missionary Ridge in Chattanooga after being paroled in Vicksburg. Then I had a Grandfather on the 23rd Pennsylvania Volunteer Zouave regiment (Google Zouaves, cool stuff) who was injured and discharged after Malvern Hill. So of course I support both sides and can't say I would support one over the other. I would say if you ran into me or LaLou anywhere other than here you would say we were not two inbred rednecks from the South except for probably our slang and accent. But we'll both admit we have idiots living down here as well.

But like you said if I could sum up the flag in two words it would be Southern pride. It's not that we hate outsiders or anything like that, matter of fact you know my love for the Northeast. Rhode Island is one of my favorite states to visit. But like you mention with the Italians that stuck together, lived together, etc. when they made their treck to the U.S. we are the same way.

As for the Ozarks we can agree, some weird folk up there

When will these dumb liberals realize that all this will do is increase the amount of confederate flags flying?

And a greater distance between those who fly them and those who do not.

I say bring back "amos and andy" it was a great t.v. show.

and bring back the movie "the song of the south"

these have been banned. why?

Amos and Andy was banned?

I liked that show the mystic knights of the sea lodge

Did they ban Dumbo because the crows were black?

that flag has no business being a "state" flag in this day and age

but if people wanna hang the flag outta their car windows it's their right

South Carolina Senate votes 37-3 to remove Confederate flag; House still to vote

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-confederate-flag-south-carolina-20150706-story.html#page=1

These guys have it as their backdrop, just looks cool to me, that why it probably will stay, just as some sort of americana - you cant really get rid of it, loads of foreigners recognise it, which means money..

http://youtu.be/iD_RZ_3OQOI

maybe we need see what flag is flying over chicago (10 dead, 58 wounded this weekend, including children) and ban it

Nicky, see my isis comment on the other thread....we seem to put up with anything in the name of free speech these days, I wont post it here though because it just isn't the same level of argument and I wouldn't disrespect the thread with such a picture

But, assholes can say, well its just a flag

I don't agree with what the Confederate flag may or may not stand for. I certainly don't respect it's original bearers, the Confederates....but we have free speech in this country.

That said...

The best way to deal with this issue is to enforce US flag code which is actually federal law.

US Flag Code states that NO other flag of any other government may be flown...by itself, or above the American Flag.

The only way to display a foreign flag (IE the flag of another government or power) is to fly it BENEATH Old Glory, or side by side. NEVER alone. That (flying a foreign flag alone)....is an act of war all by itself.

That said, I am fine with the Confederate flag as long as it is flown BENEATH Old GLory, or side by side, not by itself.

Now, if you love waving the Confederate Flag...but cannot see yourself waving Old Glory next to it, maybe it's because you don't believe in the values Old Glory has come to represent. And that is not only un-American, it actually marks you as an enemy of this country.

@littlenicky

the south, west and northwest sides of chicago are becoming like detroit

no jobs but plenty of drugs, guns, liqour stores, and PATHETIC SCHOOLS


@alfaromeo

well said

Germany is an interesting place. There are plenty of buildings that the nazi built and used in WW2 that are still standing today. They just rename them to something else. Then you see old Germans go there.

Right near what's left of the Berlin Wall near where the separation between west and east Germany. On the west German side is the old gestopo head quarters another another name.

I wanted to play stick ball off the old Berlin Wall what was left of it. I found a good spot facing gestopo head quarters.

My kids told me they would do it. My Amanda the communist told me Jan's family her then husband would be on the other team.

Then they all backed out. So I asked my oldes son to pitch to me and I would try to hit and hopefully hit gestopo head quarters. He back out as well.

But I am pretty sure my grandson Henry who is 5 will do it with me. I just got to stay around until he gets a little older to do it. When it happens I will put it on you tube.

What did you have against those that served under the flag? What was so bad about a Southerner? Don't tell you think we are all inbred hicks....

As for your other comment I can agree. If a state wants to fly it then why not? But if it does fly there is no way it should be close to ol glory. That we can agree on.

The issue isn't being a modern-day Southerner, the issue was the Confederate States of America. The issue with CSA is that it was a country that separated from the USA for the express purpose of maintaining slavery and racial discrimination, and it attacked and declared war on the USA. Southern traits like friendliness and hospitality should be treasured, but the CSA should not. Like it or not, the battle flag was a CSA flag, and the battle flag was chosen by the Sons of the Confederacy to represent the CSA in the era of Jim Crow and lynching.

As for a state flying the flag, it makes no sense to fly the flag of a country that went to war against the USA. It's not un-American, it's anti-American.

^^^^^Spot on!

Faithful do you believe the meaning of the flag can mean something non racial or discriminatory to many modern day southerners? I believe it can. I think there many who see it only as a symbol of pride and not hate.

I understand it's divisive nature and what groups used it later on to keep Jim Crow alive and white supremacy by extension. It also has no place on government property, except for Civil War monuments.

But I think we need to maintain the right for people to fly it as they please, racist or not. After all the First Amendment supports the right to free speech no matter how potentially offensive

Faithful we don't disagree much but we will here. The CSA didn't break away from the Union on slavery alone. Lincoln even said he didn't want to get rid of slavery. He even said black people were not on the same level as whites. At the time the war started, Northern states ALSO owned slaves. IIRC even Delaware fought against the 13th as well even after the war. So to say the Civil War was about slavery alone and was the main cause is total bullshit. Also the North invaded the South, the South did not attack the North. Beauregard was provoked into firing on Sumter, Davis and the CSA asked the US not to resupply Sumter and they did it anyways because they knew the CSA would fire upon them and they did. If the US pulled Anderson out of Sumter we might have two different countries today, but the North didn't want that.

So I look forward to seeing evidence that Jefferson Davis himself (for the idiot he was) declared we were breaking away the U.S. for slavery. This was the main reason I didn't want to get into this thread from the beginning, I knew I would see bullshit responses that hold no merit. I'm bowing out now, anyone that gets that Davis info are more than welcome to PM it to me.

Lincoln was not the great emancipator the history books made him out to be, he is a total myth.

he was more than willing to let the south keep their slaves if they would surrender.

he was deterimined to kill every man, woman, and child in the south to prove a point, the tenth amendment gives the states rights, that is why the north did not try Jefferson davis after the war.

the south was right in their legal argument, the states make the government, they entered the union voluntary, and the constitution gives them the right to secede from it.

the war was about states rights, and Abraham [the butcher] Lincoln was all a big myth.

I hope I live to see the day when history rethinks Lincoln.

Did you know when they lowered the confederate flag. They were also going to remove the flag pole why is that? We're they afraid someone would put up another confederate flag?

Let's take down the Lincoln memorial

Get rid of the Declaration of Independence it was written by a slave owner.

What's next

I am offended by saggy pants below the ass

Talking about your plumber

lets take down all memorials, lets replace myths with facts.

lets rename the FBI building named after hoover.

and presidents dont' deserve millions of dollars spent on their presidential libraries, it's taxpayer money.

not their personal piggy bank.

Don't misunderstand me. What I am saying is that if they fly the Confederate Flag, the only proper way to do it, as per US Flag Code law, is by flying it side by side or beneath....Old Glory. That's the only way. Any other way is an act of war.

As to your other question...I simply don't respect the values of the Confederates. They are not the same values as that of the Union. That's it.

You get it Faithful! I've never agreed with your more. It's really open and shut isn't it.

alpha.... the values of the south were the same as the founding fathers, the founding fathers were the same as the plantanion owners, white supremacy all the way.

that"s what was passed down to them. now, ask yourself were the founding fathers democratic while owning slaves.

Yes, the value system was the same Binnie, but people change...and countries evolve. The North descended from the Mayflower just like the South did, but they evolved.

I would even go so far as to say that the South may have shared all but one value in common with the original 13 colonies (half located in the North East btw), and that was the South's willingness to break up the Union to make a point. One of the main values of the original founders was the importance of maintaining the Union.

Now we all here might disagree on what that point was, whether it was the right to hold onto their enslaved captives, or something else.

alpha ok. the point I was tyring to make was that the first 15 presidents were by no means morally sound, but, rather deeply flawed.... and history should reflect that.

We agree on that too Binnie, but realistically...do we expect school text books to reflect true history? I don't. And to an extent it doesn't matter what is taught in schools, parents will often indoctrinate their children after their own style of thinking and worldview, regardless.

Binnie,

That was an interesting point that you've been making in this discussion. It makes the story complicated though, and generally Americans like issues to be simple. One side versus the other side. You bringing up plantation/slave owning presidents complicates the story. I'm glad that you and others are expressing your opinions about the flag.Opinions that otherwise wouldn't be heard because people are afraid of instantly being labeled.

I think we would all agree that for every Binnie,Dixie and Lalou..that there are others in the world who promote the flag and it's imagery exactly the way the klan and white supremacists do.

My take, speaking just for myself, is that the reemergence of the flag's use in the South coincided with the dawn of American civil rights movement....perhaps when people felt the natural order of things was being disturbed....and Negroes were forgetting their place.
From the end of reconstruction to the beginning of the civil rights movement...aka the jim crow era...Blacks were second class citizens in America and not even afforded the rights of citizens in the South.
When Blacks began to demand the rights of actual American citizens..the "order" was disturbed and I'm guessing that some Southerners began wanting to connect to the old ways. Confederate battle flag became a symbol of the old jim crow south. You can see the flag being held by people protesting AGAINST civil right demonstrators throughout the civil rights era.


The klan emerged during Reconstruction...when I'm assuming that some felt ,due to "northern interlopers"...Negroes were forgetting their place and the natural order of things was being disturbed.At the end of reconstruction...I'm guessing the klan died down as things went back to how they were.

The reemergence of the klan,in the 1920s or 30s. this time was as much a response to waves of non-Protestant immigration...as it was to gains being made by Black migrants to the North and West.Country was changing socially,culturally and Catholics,Jews, and Blacks were the "scapegoats"
There is still strong strain of hatred towards those 3 groups in many parts of the country.

I think to some..the flag represents a time when none of those groups had numbers or power. I think some of the open anti-Mexican sentiment expressed in this country is as much about them being Catholic and further changing the religious makeup of this country as it is about their impact on our resources.And of course, if you feel Blacks are naturally inferior....you hate the fact that your president is Barack Obama.

When that chapter of klan marches later this summer in SC and gives interviews, they will make the case for those calling for the removal of the flag from society. I want them to speak and expose this ugliness that some feel is in our nation's past.

Sure, I believe it is possible that someone can attach a non-racial meaning to the flag in question, but go along with me as we apply that same meaning to other things. It is possible that a person can consider a glass of milk a glass of apple juice, or that a Mercedes-Benz is chicken burrito, but if someone had those understandings we would generally correct them. Why? Because they don't correspond to reality.

The reality is that the Confederate battle flag was conceived by the CSA. The CSA stood for racism and slavery. Yes, it stood for state's rights too, but state's rights to do what? For the right of states to maintain slavery. But they also wanted to force Northern states to maintain slavery in the South, which isn't really state's rights in most people's minds. What do I mean? The South wanted the Northern states to follow the Fugitive Slave Act, which meant that those Northern states that didn't believe in slavery would have to cooperate with slave states by returning ex-slaves or runaway slaves at their own expense. The Fugitive Slave Act was a major contributor to the Civil War.

As for the First Amendment, I previously state that if a private individual wants to fly the Confederate battle flag or any other Confederate flag that person has a right to do so. But don't expect other people to agree with the CSA flag waiver that it's not a racist flag because it is. You can't separate the history from the flag. It was created as part of a racist slave country (the CSA), was held to represent all of the Confederacy by the Sons of the Confederacy in 1890, was used by the Klan to represent them and their beliefs, and was raised up in South Carolina by racist Democrat governor Ernest Hollings in 1962 (he later became a senator and is still alive at 93 years old -- strange that Media Matters and other groups haven't asked him for his opinion on this), later moved to a memorial in 2000 and taken down by Republican gov. Nikki Haley.

What about, you may ask, the Dukes and the General Lee? I don't believe they thought of the flag on their car as racist, but that's out of ignorance. Moreover, since that was PRIVATE ownership of the flag, I think it was ridiculous for the current owner of the General Lee to repaint it. Then again, let's say there was a cool-looking Volkswagon from the 1930s that had swastikas painted on it, and maybe to the original owner the swastikas meant peace in the same sense as in Hinduism. If the current owner repainted it out of sensitivity to people who lost loved ones under the Nazi regime, I would understand. Sometimes you have to not just think of yourself but consider how it makes others feel because of a real historical experiences. Historically speaking, black people in America didn't just suffer slavery, but Jim Crow in the South and other forms of discrimination all over the country, including lynching. It was still in my lifetime in some states black people and white people could not marry.

You're right that we agree on much but disagree on this. I think in the great scheme of things this is a topic of less importance than a lot of others.

Responding to some of what you wrote.

First, what Lincoln said and did is really irrelevant to the issue of the flag. Lincoln had nothing to do with any CSA flag. The point is really what the CSA was about.

Second, what Jefferson Davis said and did isn't all that relevant either since the CSA existed before he was elected as its president, just like the USA already existed before George Washington was president. The president doesn't form the country, the country elects the president.

Third, what is relevant is what the statement of secession for those states that formed the CSA said. The very first state to secede, and therefore most relevant since it was the leader in this movement (the movement to secede from the Union), was South Carolina. So the South Carolina Declaration of the Causes of Secession is posted here: http://teachingamericanhistory.org/libra...s-of-secession/

It is dated December 20, 1860. Lincoln had not yet even taken the oath of office!

Here are some key statements:

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assumed the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of Slavery; they have permitted the open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

In other words, SC was pissed that the non-slave states didn't enforce the Fugitive Slave Act.

A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the Common Government, because he has declared that that “Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,” and that the public mind must rest in the belief that Slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

SC was mad that the Northern states elected a Republican. The Republican Party was formed in 1854 as an anti-slavery party. The North elected Lincoln; he didn't get a single vote in the Southern states. Whatever Lincoln did or said after this isn't relevant because he had not yet sworn the oath of office! He took the office on March 4, 1861 -- this declaration was made on December 20, 1860. The issue was slavery.

Here is a key paragraph from the Declaration of Secession for Mississippi:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

Again, the reason is that the central issue is slavery.

Don't take my word for it: click on this link and look up each declaration here: http://www.civil-war.net/pages/ordinances_secession.asp

It may be true that there were some white slaves in Louisiana and maybe a few other places, but they were the exception, not the rule. Slavery in the South was almost always slavery of black African people and their descendants. They justified this by claiming that they were inferior, meaning less than human or subhuman. They were animals. Today we treat our animals better than how they were treated then. You could LEGALLY work a slave to death. You could LEGALLY rape a slave. You could LEGALLY beat a slave. You could legally kill a slave. This is what the states that seceded from the Union to form the CSA justified. This is what the Confederate flags represent.

@Faithful, I disagree on one point.

The flag may represent slavery, hatred and discrimination, but there are a great many, perhaps more, people that believe it be purely a symbol of the south and the good things it has to offer. It's complex. It belongs in museums, it belongs in Civil War graves and sites, and a private citizen has a right to fly it if they choose. It is part of our history, we cannot erase that.

The removal of the flag from the South Carolina state house, which I agree with, does not change or solve any problems faced by the black community today, that still struggle with poverty, wedlock, crime and negative stereotyping that are only enforced when killing sprees like the one last weekend in Chicago occur.

I don't disagree with anything you just wrote.

Glad then we are in agreement. But even if we weren't that would be alright. You're a smart guy Faithful and an excellent poster.

People would rather stroke themselves than deal with the actual problems and it is fueled by race profiteers (Al Sharpton being one example) and media (MSNBC, Rolling Stone Magazine). It is easier to continually bring up moot points than putting in the work to help future generations no fall into the same cycle of problems

Exactly dudeman. And whether or not you think it stems from the blacks themselves or white 'systematic oppression' they are still there and guys like Sharpton and Obama will always use smoke and mirrors to distract people from the real problems.

In my opinion, the issues black community face today don't stem from one source, but a multitude of factors that feed one another, creating a vicious cycle not easily broken. When people blame white racism, to me it means they don't have a good enough argument so they just use that commonly used statement as if it trumps anything you might say.

What kind of flag can we remove to stop the slaughter in chicago? I'm confused what completely symbolic, tribal, grand-standing, self-righteous nonsense we can use to stop real world highly complex phenomenon.

Agree with some of this.

I think that the flag issue is completely separate one from Black pathology, though.

Flag issue, at least in terms of state buildings,etc...is an American issue. Battle flag means different things to different people, BUT it was adopted by groups who expressly did not want Blacks to have full rights as citizens.Very un-American view in my opinion.

I don't view the flags coming down from govt. property as a victory/solution/magic spell for Blacks but more as a step forward for Americans in general.

Like I've written earlier in this thread, there have been efforts to take the flags down from state buildings,etc for decades.Certain sporting events do not take place in states flying the flag, for example.

This story goes back before recent the church shooting.

If you, or anyone reading this, have ever read the Godfather..recall the story of the mortician asking the favor from the Don. He was an emasculated guy, because of not being able to anything to protect or avenge his daughter. That was fiction. In the Jim Crow South,Black men lived entire lives of emasculation.

Strom Thurmond, the face of 20th century segregation....basically sexually assaulted/raped a young Black girl who cleaned his family's home when he was a young man..in his 20s. What could that girl's father do or say in 1925 South Carolina ? Go to the police?

Emmitt Till was infamously lynched 30 years later in Miss. for being accused of WHISTLING at a white woman..joining countless other American citizens who were lynched publicly (with kids and women in the audience which not even Isis does) for rumors, accusations,etc. With NO legal recourse.

Groups adopting the battle flag to remember the good ol days (jim crow era and pre 1865)...knew full well what imagery represents to Blacks who grew up under jim crow.

the confederate flag is a direct slap in the face to the american flag

not too mention it's only worshipped by racist

I agree it belongs in museums and civil war battle sites, but it does not belong on graves any more than the Nazi flag should fly over the German cemeteries. Are you comfortable with swastikas flying over the German war dead buried in France? After all, it is part of history. I disagree that more people in this country believe that this flag is a symbol of the good things in the south.

Faithful what Lincoln said has everything to do with this, you all act like the CSA was the only country at the time that supported slavery, yet slaves were held under the American flag FOR YEARS and still was when the Southern states started secession.

Even the great Lincoln that many people claim saved the black race said black people were not on the same level as whites. I'm not saying this mind you, I'm telling you what was said then. If this was just about slavery only, then why didn't Lincoln bring it up right away when he was elected?

Basically my point is why is there no outcry over the stars and bars? After all we owned slaves for many years under that flag and LONG before the CSA was started. Where is the outcry there? Why are we only going after one flag?

I'll long say and continue to say that if you are not from the South, or grew up in the South, then you have no idea what that flag REALLY means to people here. I've seen white and black fly it for years and never have I used the flag or seen it and thought "slavery or racism". Only people with an agenda see something wrong with it. I don't want to hear the KKK shit or the AB shit because we are all educated enough (except one or two) to know that the flag was chosen by the idiots to push their cause.

But I want to hear from everyone that is calling the flag racist and the fact slaves were owned under it as to why there is no outrage on the American flag that killed innocent Indians and pushed them from their land and even owned and beaten slaves under it as well???

Really not trying to pick a fight, but the north had a larger population and was mostly industrialized, meaning they didn't need slavery unlike the south which was more rural and into agriculture. If you are going to feed the entire nation which is mainly where produce was coming from at the time, you need the manpower to harvest thousands of acres of land. NOT trying to defend slavery just pointing out the facts.

A major difference between the CSA and the USA is that the CSA was formed for the perpetuation of slavery. That's it. The USA was formed for freedom from tyranny. Yes, many people owned slaves when the USA was formed, including the first president and some of the writers of the Constitution and Declaration. However, as Lincoln, and even more significant, Frederick Douglass, pointed out, the Declaration contained the seeds of freedom that helped fuel the abolition of slavery. Douglass appealed to assertions of natural rights and freedoms in the Declaration as the basis (along with God and reason) to end slavery. He called for those rights to apply to everyone and not just white citizens. I suggest that everyone read Douglass's Independence Day speech given in 1852 -- thirteen years before slavery was finally banned.
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/douglassjuly4.html

To respond to your statements, specifically:
1. I never said or acted like the CSA was the only country to have slavery. Slavery has existed all over the world for thousands of years. Those other countries that had slavery, however, have nothing to do with any Confederate flag. Even the designer of the flag, William T. Thompson, called it "the white man's flag." The battle flag actually became the basis for the SECOND official CSA flag in 1863.
2. As I wrote earlier, what Lincoln said isn't relevant since the Southern slave states started leaving the Union BEFORE he was sworn in as President AND the CSA was formed for the perpetuation of slavery. The USA was not formed for the perpetuation of slavery. In fact, there are items in the Constitution that put limits on slavery, such as the ban on importing slaves in 1808 and the 3/5 of a person clause (it wasn't to deny the personhood of black slaves, it was because the Southern states wanted their black slaves to count for purposes of representation while they denied them the right to vote, the opponents said that if they couldn't vote then why should they count as citizens? The result was a compromise).
3. Well, some people are going after the Stars and Bars. The difference is, however, that the USA realized its wrong and tried to fix the problem, but the CSA didn't think that the problem of slavery was wrong or a problem and formed because it liked anti-black racism and slavery.
4. Okay, we'll ignore the KKK and AB for this point. I will agree with you that many white people and some black people don't see racism in the flag. However, go along with me on this one...try to look at it from the point of view who only saw the bad side of the flag.

First, remember that the flag was created by CSA people and the CSA, like it or not, only existed to keep slavery and racism going. After the Civil War, veterans of the CSA started using the battle flag in their get-togethers. (I know that most CSA soldiers did NOT own slaves, but they still fought for a government that existed because of racism and slavery.)

Second, remember that the CSA battle flag was used by the Dixiecrats in 1948. The Dixiecrats wanted the continuation of racist Jim Crow laws and if they didn't support lynching, couldn't care less when it happened. Remember too, there are plenty of people still alive today who were alive in 1948. They're old, but they shared their stories with their children and grandchildren.

Third, remember that Georgia and Mississippi changed their state flags to include the CSA battle flag after the 1954 school integration ruling (Brown v Board of Education). For them, the battle flag was a protest against integration. They wanted to keep black children in poor, inferior schools. There are even more people alive today who were there when those states changed their flags in 1956. So the flag represented a continuation of Jim Crow laws in the South.

Fourth, most Jim Crow laws were only officially ended in 1964 with the second Civil Rights Act. I was a year old when it passed, so there are plenty of people still around who remember Jim Crow laws. Less than a month before I was born, Birmingham, Alabama mayor Theophilus Eugene "Bull" Connor ordered police to use firehoses and dogs to attack CHILDREN who were peacefully protesting Jim Crow laws. Prior to this, Connor closed down all public parks rather than integrate them. The attack on the children was televised all over the country and it made viewers see with their own eyes the brutality of Jim Crow. It was so bad that even the citizens of Birmingham voted Bull Connor out of office less than two weeks later. Even then, the last Jim Crow-style law, against interracial marriage, was not struck down until 1967.

Fifth, I know I said I would leave out the KKK, but it's relevant here. In the 1950s and 1960s the KKK was active in the South and KILLED PEOPLE. They weren't just a bunch of nutjobs, but were dangerous. And yes, the flag was associated with them too. Recall I what I wrote about the Jim Crow laws being overturned in 1964 and 1967. Separate from that, white attitudes didn't change overnight. Anti-black racism was still dominant and the KKK at that time included police officers, lawyers, judges and mayors. Today it may be limited to a bunch of losers, but back then it had people with power. That's why when people were lynched, like Emmett Till, nobody was prosecuted. I urge you to read up on Jim Crow and how it controlled all aspects of black life in the South.

The point of all this: try to put yourself in the shoes of those who do see it as a symbol of slavery and racism. Try to imagine their experiences. After you do that, see if those who are against the flag are just a bunch of left-wingers with an agenda. Don't forget that the previous conservative Republican governor of South Carolina, David Beasley called for removing the flag in 1998. He wasn't re-elected.

@Faithful

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/douglassjuly4.html

Good read thanks for sharing

@dixiemafia


the confederate flag ain't even your states flag so why so much anger?

just go to the gas station and buy a confederate flag or wash the one u already own

I respectfully disagree with the above statements about the CSA. The southern states seceded due to economic strangulation by the the industrial north....it had nothing to do with slavery whatsoever. And in all honesty, Lincoln only "used" slavery as an issue in order to create havoc in the south.
Furthermore, if we're going to say the the confederate flag is a symbol of hate and should be banned, then let's immediately get rid of all white sheets.

yes, you are absolutely right, the American flag has more blood on it than the confederate flag has ever had.

slavery was as vicious or more vicious under the first 15 presidents as it ever was anywhere, franklin pierce sent the army to boston to bring back a runaway slave, making sure he would stay a slave forever, that was under the American flag.

Andrew Jackson marched thousands of Indians to their death in the march of tears, all under the American flag.

George washingtons wife gave a slave away to her niece, the slave never saw her family again as long as she lived.
what about wounded knee where Indians were slaughtered, under the American flag.
the point being they were both wrong, but, the confederate flag was no worse than the American flag.

all the blood, and wrongdoing has been hidden under the American flag with myths, and undeserved memorials, if you take down the confederate flag, take down the American flag as well.

Did you read the links I provided from the Confederate states themselves? They all say it did have something to do with slavery. In fact they say the CSA had a lot to do with slavery. This isn't my word on it, it's their words on it.

How did a racist murdering black people at a church suddenly made white people give a shit about the Confederate flag?

Who says white people suddenly gave a shit about the Confederate flag?

6 months ago you wouldn't have the Dems and Repubs in the House of Representatives fighting over flying that rag in federal parks/cemetaries. And since most members of Congress are white...

Guess you didn't notice the part where I wrote: Don't forget that the previous conservative Republican governor of South Carolina, David Beasley called for removing the flag in 1998.

You didn't refute my point at all. Not one bit. You should try to read what I write next time.

All I'm saying is that this topic wasn't even on the friggin agenda months ago, now it's a cause that each side is animated by. It's really crazy how a massacre happens then very shortly afterwards that flag gets removed from the S.C. capitol grounds and people stop selling flag and DUKES OF HAZZARD gets pulled from TV...what the fuck?

Those flags will go back on sale in 6 months or so once this debate fades away in favor of another event that stirs up debate on a whole other issue. The General Lee will come back to TV.

If it was on the agenda 17 years ago, then yeah, it does refute your point. I don't know how old you are, but I'm 52 and I've seen it go on the agenda many times.

The reason for the current agenda is clear. The NAACP has had a boycott against South Carolina since it put up the flag in 1990 and for the reasons I explained is hurtful to many African Americans, especially those who lived through Jim Crow. Because that punk who murdered those people in a Bible study in church posted himself with the Confederate flag it gave ammunition to that cause. Governor Nikki Haley saw doing this as an opportunity to outreach and for healing, and both Republican senators agreed, as well as most members of state's congress. They only sought to remove it from government property.

To me it's a separate issue if someone wants to have it privately; it's a right whether or not anyone else has an issue with it. The BlackLivesMatters crowd and anarchists like to push things too far. It helps that they are financially backed by billionaire George Soros, who funds every anti-American cause. It's only the extremists who try to force businesses to ban all uses of the flag, even for collectors. They are well-funded and well-organized, not just with protesting but MoveOn.org (another Soros-funded group) does massive emailing campaigns to get them to bend to their will.

As for "The Dukes of Hazard" going back on TV, it may depend on which party wins the presidency. Even then, this country is moving in very leftward turn which may mean that "Dukes" will never return to TV. I'm surprised they haven't tried to get "All in the Family" or "The Jeffersons" taken off the air yet, but they may soon enough.

And to those who say that people should go after the American flag too, like I said, here they are: http://www.illwriteit.com/nocturnus-libertus-launches-campaign-to-defecate-on-us-flag/

Yes that was said on his part. But he was a politician. Do we really know the intent of his words in speaking that way during a time when America was filled with concentration camps and extrajudicial executions? The atmosphere back then was paranoia. Many people passed for white, and might have pretended to be racist, when in fact neither representation on their part was true. Many people were part Indian, like Elvis Presley, who was a half breed.

Take a look at this photo...

Jacob Lincoln

The man above was Abraham Lincoln's 1st cousin. Does that look like a white man? I am not so sure it does.

Look at this one...

The President's Brother, Wesley Enlow

The photo above is of President Lincoln's brother. Does that look like a white man? Not to me it doesn't.

So I don't read too much into the President's racist comments. The main point was that he freed the slaves.

Is Barack Obama the first Black President? I am not so sure about that either.

They both look white to me.

Both the Lincoln relatives look white to me too. White in the sense of Caucasian. Elvis was 1/16 Cherokee, not half.

And let me add, when Lincoln was running for President, he was mocked for having racial ambiguity. His opponents were running ads depicting him as a monkey in some cases. When you research Lincoln and his whole log cabin story, you find that some things are actually murky.

I know you do your due dilligence Faithful so I will cede you that one. Elvis does look unusual though, with his large teeth structure and large black eyebrows and high cheekbones. To be 1/16th cherokee is not unusual for any white OR black American. But most white people don't look like Elvis. I do believe he might have dyed his hair black, not sure about that though. But to all other intents and purposes, he resembles an Indian [more-so than what is commonplace].

yes, I agree. a lot of things about about Lincoln, are murky. his legacy is wrapped up in myths, he was never against slavery he told the southern generals at one point in the war, if you surrender you can keep your slaves for forty years.

he doesn't sound like the great freedom fighter his myth makes him out to be. he was indeed a butcher.

Faithful...you make some great points, but beware of revisionist history and who exactly is writing on behalf of the CSA...slavery was nothing more than a blip on the radar screen in the 1860's, as far as the Civil War was concerned....and again, this whole controversy with the Confed. flag is so phony...its all symbolism over substance. Our society is always on the search for anything that can possibly "offend" anybody or any group, its completely out of control...this is just the latest example in a long line of "offenses."
Its gotten to the point where individuals are unable to even voice an opinion that is not agreeable to the left...if you do, you can bet that the forced, compulsory apology is soon to follow.

oldschool, what more can Faithful do besides provide accredited documentation? He did all he could. Now someone denies that and then turn around and call it revisionist. That's bananas, and it's what is wrong with American discourse. We can't have a productive political discussion because everyone is denying and claiming the other guy is making it all up. Just understand one thing, secession or a breaking up of the Union, is very dangerous. I know I sometimes speak in riddles. If translation services are needed, just let me know.

@Alfa Romeo - Thanks

@oldschool3 - For the CSA material I used the CSA's own official documents. I didn't cite any historians, revisionist or otherwise, just the official documents and I provided links so any poster can read for him or herself. When I do research I try as much as I can to examine the original documents. I do consult what historians have to say, but I don't take then for their words on anything. That's one thing that I learned while researching the Mafia, and we know how much mythmaking occurs there. There is a lot of debate on the CSA, but when one examines its own documents everything is pretty cut and dry.

As for the symbolism issue...yes, it is symbolism, but symbols mean things and they have histories behind them. Symbols didn't develop out of thin air. In this case we can't, in my opinion, ignore the meaning of the Confederate symbols when they went hand-in-hand with slavery, racism, Jim Crow, lynching and the Klan. This doesn't mean that for those whom the flag means Southern pride are racists. I never said that, but this is one of those times and one of those objects that they have to consider what it means to those who experienced Jim Crow, and whose parents and grandparents experienced that and the other things I mentioned. Racism and discrimination didn't end with slavery. It continued for another hundred years.

I also want to make clear that this doesn't mean I'm advocating white guilt, as in the sense that if a person has white skin he or she should be ashamed and feel guilty for the acts of one's possible ancestors. Many people didn't have American ancestors that went back that far but are children or grandchildren of immigrants and had nothing to do with slavery or Jim Crow. More than that, for those who do have ancestors going back to slaveholders, children are not responsible for the evils that their ancestors did. After all, slavery and all types of other evils existed throughout history all over the world. Nor do I advocate this far-left "check your privilege" meme going all over college campuses that tries to impose white guilt and actually makes racists out of non-whites who push that on whites. It's exchanging one type of racism for another.

Ideally, it would be great if race became irrelevant and unimportant, and it may actually happen in the future. Being obese used to be a sign of wealth, but now it's a sign of gluttony and poor health, so that's one aspect of physical appearance that changed over time, and how people view color will change too. We ought to be past it already as a society, but instead certain quarters want to keep it for their own agendas.

My agenda is that we realize that there are certain things that are greatly offensive to certain people FOR GOOD REASONS, and that we can at least try to avoid offending them so we can be at peace. This is one thing where there is documented history behind it and it's not something that has no basis in reality. There's a reason why a rally was held FOR the flag by the KKK in South Carolina today; what role did they play in this issue? Answer: A Big Role. Remember, it was the Dixiecrats, who stood for the preservation of Jim Crow, that really brought the flag back. The Klan started promoting the flag after that. When it was raised on statehouses, it was as an act of defiance to attempts to bring down Jim Crow, like school integration in 1954. Now the Klan is relegated to a relatively small bunch of losers, but the one issue that they are fighting for today is complaining about the Confederate battle flag being removed from the SC state capital. Really, at this point, what does one need to understand that the flag is not a symbol to celebrate?

I, too, have read the CSA website and have somehow come to a different conclusion than you have Faith (no disrespect, just a different take). The statements on their own site is consistent with the historical record, namely that the war was over states' rights and not slavery. Merely google "was slavery the cause of the Civil War?"....not to mention everything that I've read from HS thru college and since.

The question is, which states' right were they talking about? Which right were they defending?

faithful. I do think the tenth amendment spells out the rights of the states, never forget its the states that make the union, the unions doesn't make the states.

I have always thought that the north never tried Jefferson davis because the south were right in their legal argument that they entered the union voluntarily, and they had a right to leave it legally.

the confederate states were fighting for the right to make their own laws, without government interference.

the right to make the states soverign, as they were during the articles of confederation.

he's not mentally ill. he's just racist.

That's a great question Faith....there were many states' rights issues at the time and slavery was definitely one of them, but at the same time, not the driving issue of the day.

slavery was the driving issue of everyday of the civi war

the confederate flag represents a flag that wanted slavery

can't get around that

Stupid ass posts like this is the reason why I wanted to stay out of this.

For your info there Mr. Sharpton, what were the U.S. soldiers fighting for? They were not fighting for your kind because most owned your kind as well.

Can't get around that!

slavery was the driving issue of everyday of the civi war

the confederate flag represents a flag that wanted slavery

can't get around that.

This couldn't be further from the truth...those who obtain their knowledge of history from the Today Show or John Stewart will always produce mis-information such as this. Infantile.

Actually most white people of the era did not own slaves. Actually there was a massive abolitionist movement extant at that time. Actually, soldiers don't get to decide what they fight for, they are simply conscripted into war and must carry out their function. Actually the first person to lose their cool in a debate usually ran out of logic and facts to counter attack the arguments of the other debater.

My city's council unanimously voted and removed the state flag, along with 5 other cities :
http://www.cdispatch.com/news/article.asp?aid=43399

I read the article and am curious about how Kabir Karriem said he normally doesn't agree with Mayor Robert Smith. What's that about? What's the difference between them?

Slavery was the driving issue. Anyone who ignores that is IGNORING THE VERY OWN STATEMENTS PUT OUT BY SECEEDING STATES.

"Infantile" though. Read some history... The facts are plain.

It's basically disagreements on certain issues and yet they have their own radio show. It's time for a new mayor.

Well, thank you Mighty....since you clearly know quite a bit about this topic, and I would like to benefit from your knowledge, could you give me your source base for further reading? Thank you kindly.

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

I already told you what I was referencing but here is a link.

This might be my biggest pet peeve. It's truly amazing this turned into "states rights" -- one of the bigger American lies.

If you have trouble picking out the parts that directly reference slavery, I can do that for you tomorrow. Just curious - have you ever read these before?

Honestly, what good would this do you?

It wouldn't...some people just need to be humored.

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/vAZADY7kzv4

Check out this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcy7qV-BGF4

Faithful I just saw that YouTube.

I always thought the reason for the civil war was other things besides slavery. I would believe it was because of the cheap labor that slavery represented.

Cheap labor like Mexican labor maybe that is our slavery today cheap labor. Plus getting Mexicans and people on welfair and other public assistance to vote democrat. To keep their gravy train from stopping.

People in politics were fucked up then, and their still fucked up today.

^^^^^

jail is our slavery today, mexican immigrants just get taken advantage of

most people on welfare and public aide probably vote republican for misguided reasons

If people didn't do the crime then they wouldn't be doing the time. Very few people in jail are innocent of anything. With slavery people were imprisoned from the day they were born to the day they died and weren't guilty of anything, so there's no comparison between the two.

Maybe voting Republican would be first step in getting out of welfare and public assistance. As they say, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of crazy. Black Americans have been voting 80-90% Democrat for decades what has it done for them? Even under Obama, the black unemployment rate has increased. Then again, what does a successful brain surgeon like Ben Carson or a billionaire real estate developer know about anything?

I honestly doubt voting for either party would do anything better for blacks. Historically Blacks been voting republicans since the reconstruction era and yet had to deal with the Jim Crow laws (nationwide). The welfare system coupled with the development of housing projects along with cultural/institutional discrimination forged the situation for generations. The situation is no doubt affected by politics but more so with residential & commercial attitude that possibly could of prevented some of the decline with those communities. I'm honestly not that political savvy but I would think most of my people should just vote & stay independent.

The comparison of chattel slavery to modern day prisons is an extremely disrespectful one. Whenever I read that I get the impression that person who says that doesn't understand history or is just repeating something that they heard but may not understand........or just trolling.

The book New Jim Crow era and other pro blacks used that notation in reference to the large number of blacks incarcerated and also the school to prison pipeline too.

@BF,

First I'd like to tell you that you are more politically savvy than you think you are. I always felt that politics are made to seem a lot more complex than they are. It comes down to policies,laws, and rulings. Everything else is just bells and whistles.

About the "new jim crow" and "school to prison" pipeline stuff, there are always external and internal factors but the ones feeding people this stuff know that some would rather blame the outside forces instead of taking a long hard look in the mirror and face the reality of the INTERNAL issues.

You can't sell books or do lecture tours telling people to go to school, and not have children that they can't properly raise though...but you can make money blaming unseen evil forces like the prison industrial complex, "wilie lynch", and the school to prison pipeline, and of course "the Illuminati"

Damn nice post

@Gets

Thank You 100+ respect.

That illuminati runs the media/country crazed is a migraine. This rapper success equals that conspiracy , these symbols mean this, etc.

actually i just read the other day that black unemployment rate is lowest in years

brain surgery and real estate ain't got shit to do with running a country

concering your statement that very few people in jail are innocent.. its a ridiculous statement, by the advent of DNA many, many people were proven to be wrongly convicted, many sued and were awarded cash settlements.

also many police departments were guilty of planting drug evidence on people they pulled over on traffic stops.

all this has been proven in court in many cases, also people incarcerated in Guantanamo there are hundreds with no charges filled against them and, have been imprisoned for years.

there are far too many cases to mention where people have been wrongly convicted.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...t-rate-african/

A successful brain surgeon and a real estate developer sure do as shit can do a lot with running a country. One has personal experience in health care and treating people, serving on business boards and has authored multiple scientific articles; the second has years of business experience. Compare that to the current occupant of the White House who has none of that and who didn't even finish his one term as a senator before he was elected. Since business is what pays the taxes for this country to run, yeah, it's a big deal.

It's not a ridiculous statement. Only a very small percentage are wrongfully convicted and the overwhelming majority committed crimes that landed them in prison. I didn't say there weren't any wrongful convictions, and I support DNA evidence to release those who shouldn't be there. I also agree that there's police corruption. Hell, that's discussed all the time on these Mafia-related forums, so that's obvious to anyone who posts here. Again though, none of that negates the fact that most people in prison did crimes and deserve to be there.

Guantanamo Bay is totally irrelevant to domestic policing and corrections. That has to do with the military, military justice, and terrorism. Separate discussion.

Cook county said "black unemployment rate is the lowest in years"

Haha that is funny man. I think if they go on public assistance they go off the unemployment rate.

How old are you are you still living with daddy?

It's cook, did y'all expect a post that makes sense?

Yes, they only count as unemployed if they are actually looking for work. So for that information you'd look at the Black Labor Force Participation Rate, which is very low under Obama. It hasn't been as low since Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter:
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/01/...-ever-recorded/

I think the unemployment rate is in the United States over all is closer to 15 percent.

Among blacks it is closer to 20 percent or even more then that. It is a disgrace.

Anyone who actually buys the bullshit numbers the government puts out is an idiot.

Plenty of people in their 50s lost their jobs due to down sizing and other cut backs.

So what are they doing taking unemployment, welfare and working off the books.

My brother in law has been doing this for years. He has me for money for years. I told him no because and old beef I have had with him. He divorces his first wife. He has a son that needed a special diet to keep from having mental problems. His lawyer advised him not to pay it.

So I paid the 700 a month. I don't forget that. His son is now in his 40s and is fine. But he has nothing to do with his father now. When that first happen when his son was a new born I through his father down the stairs out side my first house.

My brother is an industrial engineer he is almost 80. He does not have enough money coming in. So I have loaned him at least 20 thousand to help him out. He pays me back 60 dollars a month towards it. I think I will be 200 years old when he pays me all back

Damn, if your brother is almost 80 then you're a lot older than I thought you were! LOL You just can't always tell how old someone is on the internet.

My brother and I went years without talking to each other. Then somehow we made up.

Now because of an argument he had with my oldest son. We are back to not talking to each other. He complained about Vic to me. I told him why are you even telling me about it. It's between him and you, and not me.

So now we are back where we belong not speaking. Fuck him

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-300-men-march-20150816-story.html

Article about a grassroots organization in Baltimore that tries to engage young men in productive activities and prevent street violence. They do a march each year to protest the out of control street violence..and this year they marched to Washington DC.

Listen, protests involving "race" and related topic are just going to get MORE publicity from mainstream media. The protests involving the subject of this thread,for example.

But protests, and grassroots movements to curtail Black on Black violence occur EVERY week in America. They are not as high profile and just aren't as marketable or polarizing so national media stays away.

Then "we" need to give groups like the 300 Men March more publicity. Is there a group like this in Ferguson, MO? Chicago? Los Angeles? Detroit? New York?

Not sure if a march from Baltimore to Washington DC during the hottest time of the year is a good idea. Could get heat stroke.

That's really gets. I believe if most crime ridden communities did this and received the proper publicity the country wouldn't have this race war narrative going on.

I believe low income white areas with high rates of drug abuse need to do the same. Maybe not march, but get involved to help people overcome their addictions. Because as we all know, jail and mandatory minimum isn't reducing heroin usage in this country

F1,

Organizations like this exist to varying degrees in every major urban area. Luckily, this one appears to be a secular organization.

You pointed out recently, accurately, that Bill Cosby's problems (self induced!!!) were jumped on by the media because he called out the bull several years ago, and they didn't like it. Besides the lectures that he did across the country saying plain common sense things...he helped fund HUNDREDS of these kinds of organizations across the country.


And yeah....perhaps the 300 Men should have planned the event for a cooler time

Several people expressed that Blacks only march or protest when there is a racial issue and if that's all that national news outlet shows, then that's what people are going to believe.

Sometimes things are simpler than what TV would have us think, this is one of the times when things are actually a lot more complicated than what TV would have us think.


I'm not a fan of marches...and I agree with you about how the old way of doing things obviously hasn't worked and as Americans we need to find new approaches.

Grass roots organizations whose AIM is to be so effective that they aren't needed anymore. The problem with the way the current "social services" industry is designed is that it's aim is to always exist....to always have a need for it. That's backwards.

This is what I been saying in the past about media propaganda or frenzy. They will only rotate news worthy material that will draw a crowd in them throw more flair to it. At the end of the day it's what goes into their pockets that counts more than actual journalism (not all news stations of course).

All good points BF and Gets.

And I'm sorry if this sounds bad but I really fucking hate this black lives movement. Not because black lives don't matter, but the movement itself is psychotic. If you go to their website they have a whole list of demands that are totally outrageous and off-putting. They stick their nose where it doesn't belong and they even prevented Bernie Sanders from speaking at a campaign event.

These people only care about black lives after that black life has been killed by a white cop. They don't care about the circumstances surrounding it or back story just that it involved a white cop. They're not doing anything to actually make their own communities better.

We all know cops go overboard, and some are prejudiced. But in the end, if your community is a magnet for crime, and therefore the police, why not take steps to better it? Easier said than done I know but there's too much victimization going on. Hold cops accountable and hold the people committing the crimes accountable.

Sadly, few are available to take Cosby's place for the good that he did.