U.S. snipers, hereos, or not?

a lot has been said about US.snipers because of the movie recently released. the sniper in the movie had 160 kills. I have mixed feelings, he said "i did it to save American lives"

that's ok with me, but, I don't think snipers should be idolized, I don't think young boys should want to grow up to be snipers. not if all they want to do is kill! kill! kill!

what do you think about snipers with high body counts?

They do gods work.

Snipers, like any of our soldiers, are doing the thing that I sure as hell don't have the guts to do: fighting to preserve and protect the freedoms that you and I share here in the United States. They are fighting an enemy that would have no qualms about beheading your children before your very eyes. Should one aspire to be a killer? Of course not, but snipers aren't killers in the same way that...say...some piece of shit gang banger is. They don't kill indiscriminately. There's a difference between a cold-blooded murderer and a soldier sent to kill an enemy that would slaughter him, his brothers, and his entire family if given the opportunity. It takes some nerve for scumbags like Michael Moore to openly criticize ANYBODY who is fighting for his freedom to be an ignorant asshole.

Are they heroes? Damn right, they are.

that movie is pure propaganda, plain and simple! it was cringe worthy, one of the opening scenes with kyle's dad giving a speech about wolves, sheep and sheepdogs with his belt on the table gave me that feeling where you are so embarrassed for other people that it makes you feel like an idiot just for being a witness to the foolishness. ditto for the spotter telling kyle that if he makes the wrong call, they'll fry him in levenworth! clint eastwood should be ashamed of himself!

chris kyle was a pathological liar, proven not only in court but for anyone capable of independent thought. the fact that a movie was made about the life of a known liar speaks volumes to how fucked up things presently are. the guy was everything that honorable military personal strive not to be!

the US army is over-idolized imo, but I, unlike others, don't hold the premise that any and all US military intervention can be equated to "protecting our freedoms", so opinions will of course vary wildly as to whether being in the army automatically makes you a hero.

great post, red zone. I keep wondering why did the guy keep count? also, I keep in mind it's a volunteer army, they all volunterred, so if another kid enlists with the purpose of going above 160 confirmed kills to get notoriety, I think this is wrong.

five felonies, I see your points, could we say that a sniper with 160 kills is a serial killer, but, the army and many people hail him as a hero? or is he just an American serviceman doing his job?

it angers a lot of people but, those who have a problem with the sniper movie, still have the right to express their feelings.

It depends on how many of the 160 that were non threatening towards him or the troops a sniper would usually watch over. I haven't seen nor read the book (I know there are a lot in the book that is up in the air if it really happened or not). Overall though, not every soldier is a hero. A sniper can be a hero if they save troop's lives from another sniper,ambush,etc. I mean really snipers have turned tides in battle's for centuries.

Oh yeah the new movie. Guy's got an impressive kill ratio.. still he hasn't got nothing on the Finnish guy, Simo Hayha.. now he was THE "perfect" military sniper. The soviets used to call heavy artillery strikes in forests where he was suspected of hiding.. anybody who knows something about warfare knows what a desperate move that is. He used to keep snow in his mouth so his breath wouldn't give away his position. Oh, and he didn't even use a scope!



That's exactly what the taliban snipers believe too. I'm not trying to defend them or start a debate, but war is war.. there's no black and white.

Wow! He also survived from a sniper shot in the face, with half of his face gone.

Yeah his whole story is so extreme and crazy it sounds like fiction! I'm a little surprised some people STILL haven't heard of him, his story has been covered in plenty of different places, like in Cracked magazine, etc.

I think Snipers with high body counts are to be honored no more or less than any soldier serving in combat, they were trained to do a job and they are being effective.

It is a big deal on the battle field. The enemy has to expose himself to fire at someone and actually hit what your aiming at.. You might think twice about doing that if you know a sniper is around. So they will do like our finest do here in Ny. They shoot their guns without actually aiming. The enemy will do that as well. So you will hit less people even though your firing more bullets.

Snipers go out with two or more people.

The best sniper they say was the guy Hathcock from Vietnam he went out alone.

Yeah, sadly his story and other allies stories would be overshadowed by those like Audie Murphy, Patton, McArthur, and Eisenhower. In the HBO docudrama Hemingway & Gellhorn, there was suppose to be a scene with Steven Wiig as Hayha but it was cut to shorten the time.

Hayha is the sort of person a movie should've been made about. Random Finnish farmer decides to pick up his Rifle and force the Red Army to give him a nickname .

I haven't watched American Sniper, nor am i familiar with his life story so i'll just let people more informed speak about Chris.

My ex son in laws brother was one of the cops who was sent to Iraq to help train Iraqi police after the original conflict in Iraq ended.

he brought back two dvd's to me how the army were trying to stop the burying of explosives just outside Baghdad.

Helicopter flys around in the middle of the night. Their night vision is so good they can see things so far away. They could not even hear a helicopter was around.

It was like 8 people both men and women in three cars and a steam shovel that was Mobil.

They fire explosive rounds at them. They did not range it right it was so far away they did not hear it.

They range it right blew them apart you saw body parts flying around. Then you see one guy crawling out from underneath a truck. Their was one car left not hit. He was behind the car they waited until he was in line with the car and shot through the car and got him as well.

That got my attention.

My cousin served 12 years on Seal Team 6, was one of the Seals on the Bin Laden raid...he's never been the same. At some point, these guys become a few sandwiches short of a stack. The atrocities that our soldiers see and our snipers have to commit have everlasting affects. We argue over fantasy football, we get stressed around the holidays and get bored with the daily routines of life...while these guys who are in their 20's and 30's are sitting on a building about to kill a 10 year old because his mother or father gave him a bomb to kill Americans for Allah. NONE OF US who haven't served in the military could even comprehend...not even a little.

I think if a mother and father give their son a bomb to kill someone. If it was me protecting that someone. I would have no problem killing that kid. I would only feel bad about not being able to kill his mother and father for forcing that kid to do something like that.

Your cousin is a hero.

I agree...but the fact is that an 8 year old who is brainwashed by his parents from a young age doesn't even understand. Sad all around and the damage it does psychologically has a domino affect. Families get ruined because of it.

yeah, all the veterans of Iraq, and Afghanistan, come back pretty much screwed up, and the V.A. doesn't do nearly enough for them, I feel sorry for these guys coming back with missing arms, legs, feet, hands. the roadside bombs in Iraq did tremendous damage to young kids.

the only question I have is after all the dead soldiers, and trillions of dollars spent. where is the return for the money? if all that money was spent in our own country nobody would be out of work.

Don't agree with that. First the most important job of the president is to protect the country.

If our president had an extra 10 trillion dollars he would piss away that extra trillion.

The return of the money is basically you paying what you pay for a gallon of gas and not 10 times that.

From these posts, it appears no one read Kyle's book, "American Sniper". I am 80% finished with the book. I haven't seen the movie. My take on Chris Kyle; he was a very intensely, "delusional" man. He justified killing all "insurgents" as protecting America and his fellow combatants. But it should be understood that all his "kills" were documented by the Rules Of Engagements" ROEs. He - and all aggressive actions - had to be justified to military administration. This is not my opinion, its in the book. Kyle was a Navy SEAL to the ultimate definition. He wanted to engage the enemy, he wanted to protect his fellow SEALS. He truly believe his mission was for the good of America. He was a deeply committed soldier. In my opinion, he was psychotic.

could be. because he counted his kills, and didn't he re- enlist, because he wanted to keep killing.

He went in with a team. They had to confirm the kills he had. I think he was too busy killing to count his own kills.

I keep wondering how General Patton would fare in the age of the Internet and the 24 hour media.

He did four tours when his wife did not want to go back. It had to be a power trip for him. Everyone would like to be God like have the power of life and death over other men.

I m a lot older than you and, ive talked to many world war 2 veterans, and I can honestly say they all loved the guy.

and one thing always comes up, it doesn't mean anything to this generation or even the last two, but, the guys that were in pattons army, the big question they always asked.

why wasn't pattons army allowed to enter berlin before the Russians? he was ready to go into berlin and was stopped, letting the Russians enter first.

good question. but, im off topic, sorry.

Absolutely. He was revered by the troops.

Are you kidding? Imagine handing him a pair of night vision goggles and a drone. The guy would never sleep

Binnie, Patton was one of the first guys who predicted the Cold War. His idea was to hit the Soviets at full-force since they're fatigued from the war, their troops in disarray and most of their reinforcements depleted or concentrated.
The US command basically told him no It's still up for debate but I believe the US would have beaten the Soviets even without the A-bombs, but there would have probably been MANY victims on both sides, plus most people were getting tired of the war.

Short answer: America didn't want another war; they wanted it to end ASAP.
He was stopped because the Russians had wanted Berlin and probably hinted that they would have fought even the Americans for it. The war was much more "personal" for the Russians who suffered A LOT more casualties than the US, UK and the rest of Europe combined.

I wonder if FDR would have continued to capture Berlin even if it meant fighting Russia. Also, wonder how Patton would have done in Korea if he didn't die from his injuries in that jeep accident.

But, yeah Patton was a one of a kind person.

great observation, and myself being a teensger in the 50s was never really taught the amount of casualties that the Russians suffered. [it was the cold war, and you dare not speak about Russia, or you get a visit from hoovers FBI]


the Russians lost 20 million in world war 2, we lost 500,000 the Russians fought 200 german divisions, we fought 20.

hitlers troops starved 750,000 Russians, in the siege of Leningrad. and there is more, but, when the cold war was at its height, you dare not speak about world war 2, you had to be careful. I know I lived it. hoover had people terrified.

and god help you if you manned a picket line, for a raise in wages, hoover would call you a commie. and you would be ruined.

it was the most frighting time in U.S. history

Churchill wanted to march on to Berlin. FDR had already given eastern europe and parts of Berlin to the Soviets at Yalta in Feb, 1945.

ive heard the same, I also heard that Roosevelt was a very sick man at Yalta. and didn't exercise good judgement.

my question has always been who was influencing Roosevelt at that meeting? it turned out to be a terrible decision that virtually imprisoned eastern Europe for 5o years.

Maybe in his weakened state he couldn't stand up to Stalin's demands. He passed away like 2 months later.

yes, that's true, but, should we not have been on top of that, should not the people have been informed about what was at stake, and the condition of the president.

instead of hearing about what went on decades later. who was watching the store?

Honestly, I'm not surprised that happened. FDR is somebody that would keep information away from the vice president, so who knows how much stuff was kept secret.

Also, I wonder how Truman felt when found out all of this information and the deal with Russia.

I just read a book called ARMAGEDDON all about the last year of WWII when Germany itself was under siege from both sides. It both picks fault and praises all the sides and main men involved. It told a story of how Patton launched an unofficial raid to rescue his son in law who was a POW. A lot of American soldiers died in this raid. It also tells, of course that Patton was idolised by his men and was probably the best and most daring of the Allied commanders. Montgomery, who is a British hero, is pilloried as a pompous idiot but was revered by his men. The Germans were the best fighting troops, even at the end, and the Russians were the worst, there was just so many of them and they were so ferocious. The war in the East between Germany and Russia was an ideological battle to the death. Good book ,well worth a look, by a chap called MAX HASTINGS.

Snipers are true hero's . I challenge anyone to have the guts to go to afghanistan without fear and conquer the enemy.
Snipers get shot at by opposing snipers. They are also in danger of getting captured and beheaded.
Instead of idolizing john gotti or asking " who the best LCN boss is"... I would think about idolizing a sniper. Without them, we dont have a forum to post this shit.

Most of his targets were enemy snipers trying to kill Americans. Often our men are exposed and having that sniper there helps "Level the playing field" to quote obama. He saved a lot of American lives but yet I see many on here bashing him.

I don't know if I would day Montgomery was a idiot, if anything he was extra cautious when it came to battle. Because of that it cost the war to go a bit longer.

Armageddon. sounds like a great book, I think i'll get it.

I would like to know how the army is "over idolized"? Because they put their lives on the line while you don't? Seems like a good enough reason to tip your hat to them, being the fact that they would stand up to the enemy while you stood behind them regardless if they agreed with your political views or not. That's loyalty 90% of America does not possess anymore.

The Army didn't choose to go to war, Congress and the elected politicians did. The Army also didn't decide to pull out and leave a new born democracy in the midst of chaos to satisfy popular liberal opinion. Once again that's the politicians that ultimately caused thousands more to die from an attempted overthrow that wouldn't have happened had there been at least a contingency force present. That's something everyone forgets when they call a soldier in uniform a killer or decide not to show respect.

Most that join the US Military do so not to "kill" but rather to pay for schooling, become advanced in a special job (diesel mechanic, aircraft mechanic, military police, computer technician, etc) That can open up doors to the future.

From an Infantry stand point, even I myself as a former officer will tip my hat to the snipers. If you are captured and confirmed to be a sniper, you aren't just executed, your are tortured until you die. Snipers strike fear into the enemy's mind because it isn't like engaging the typical infantry unit in the point that you can see who you are fighting. It is VERY psychological to someone when their squad is dropping and you have no idea where the rounds are coming from to be able to call in artillery or air support.

I'll even admit, the guy is a little too hardcore even for my standards. A lot of veterans have problems with the fact that we volunteered to serve the country, not serve then put our stories on the line for political or monetary gain. The medals or heroic deeds can be praised, but to run around and brag about it is nothing short of compensating for another shortfall somewhere's else in life. Kind of like the non combat guys that spent a year in Anaconda restocking commissary shelves then get back to the states and use the "decorated combat vet" line to prove a political point. "Yeah bro, cool commendation medal, get behind the light blue colors of the infantry and hold your cooking pan against your chest, wouldn't want a stray enemy round to graze ya."

Are you sure? US military, Russian military, Italian military, doesn't matter which country, if you join ON YOUR OWN FREE WILL, you are no better than a mafia hitman unless your country is under attack and you have to protect you innocent compatriots.
Being a soldier is a dirty job, necessary for this imperfect world, but still dirty and not "noble" and "glorious" at all.

Tell me, why soldiers always rape women and kill civilians after the enemy army has been defeated? Even in the Second World War many Soviet soldiers enjoyed raping German women and boasted that "half of our children were born in Germany", and American soldiers in Vietnam also raped women and had no problems shooting children, while the individuals who denounced that were labeled as "traitors"? How is this different from when an informer is targeted by the mafia for "ratting"?

There are no wars today when you have to "protect you homeland". The last such war was World War 2.

I was born in Russia and I am still sick of the propaganda about how "heroic" our butchers in Chechnya are. Do you seriously think American soldiers behave more civilly when they have just conquered a village formerly owned by terrorists?

I actually consider this too ignorant to reply to but I will.

Since you were born in Russia, I consider you to not be able to have the right to say a fucking thing about our military. As LaLou mentioned, I'd say 90% of our military join today to get ahead in life. Early retirement, education, learning a trade, and even getting into politics are just a few things that joining the military gets you here. Recruiters know that 99% of those they sign up will be out after their first or second re-enlistment.

So no we don't sign up here just to shoot people.

If you think you are so clever, what do you think about soldiers raping and pillaging on conquered territories? An argument to difficult for you to grasp? Or are you SERIOUSLY implying Americans don't do that? It's as much ignorant as if I said Russians don't do that. War transforms people into beasts, and I am not talking about those "other kind" of people who enlist to be mechanics, work with computers etc, but about those who actively participate in battles on their own free will.

And I don't have a problem with the USA army specifically. Other countries' armies are no better from a moral point of view.

Yes, snipers are heroes, regardless of what one thinks about Kyle specifically.

I was listening to an interview with another sniper who recently wrote his own book (don't recall the name) and he said 90% of what snipers do is gather intelligence. He also said some have a negative reaction to them because, when they hear the word "sniper," they think "assassin."

What I don't care for is the typical knee jerk reaction we've seen by certain libs in the media regarding American Sniper. Or, for that matter, many other movies that paint our military in a good light. It's like, any military action after WWII, Hollywood usually only wants to condemn and criticize it.

Woaaaa....Alright man first off, if soldiers were having sex in Iraq and Afghanistan, it was with US female soldiers. This isn't the 70's and we did not invade Afghanistan and Iraq to spread communism to the Middle East. The Army in general is WAY too policed by its own MP's and the MEDIA itself. YOU ARE WAY OUT OF LINE IF YOU THINK AMERICAN SOLDIERS WERE RAPING AFGHAN OR IRAQI WOMEN. And you sincerely just put yourself on my shit list by insinuating me or other soldiers under my command of doing the same thing.

When the female soldier was caught in Iraq taking photos with the prisoners in a very bad manner, that is about as far as it ever went. The media would be all over even if they had a hint of a lead on American Soldiers raping women while in combat.

This isn't Jarhead, Full Metal Jacket, Band of Brothers or Generation Kill, it is real life. And I am very offended by having US soldiers accused of atrocities that the Russians committed 30 plus years ago.

How about that invasion of the Ukraine? How you guys doing with that? gotta go after a country with an Army the size of a soccer team eh? Last I hear the economy is doing pretty crappy due to all the embargoes for trying to play powerhouse. At least when we invaded Iraq, they had the 4th largest army on the globe, compared to our 8th largest.

You guys ever wanna pick on someone your own size, I got no problem yelling "WOLVERINES!" and start marching again. (To those of you that caught that one, hats off to you )

I think you take a wrong look at it. The soldiers participating in those wars or that even enlist in the army regardless of which country, is usually as said before to either learn a profession or in some cases escape poverty.
We can't put all the blame on soldiers for what happens in those wars as they don't start them. Conditions of war forces these cases of pilaging and chaos to happen. I find it hard to believe that someone that wants to protect his country joins the army for the joy of killing. What would happen if people didn't join the army when terrorists are attacking the people? ISIS? Taliban? Foreign countries invading? Talking nice wont prevent lunatics killing innocents.

I don't to have anything to say about that, feel free to shit on the Russian army, I have no objections. But saying the American army is less violent simply isn't true. Maybe YOUR group didn't rape anybody, but, just to avoid pontless going around the subject, please tell me ONE SIMPLE THING:
Do you agree with the My Lai massacre where WOMEN AND CHILDREN were killed by your beloved American army (to limit myself to one example) and especially, what do you think about the people who objected and exposed that being labeled as traitors? Tell me just that. If you agree that some of your compatriots acter like murderous scumbags AT LEAST IN THAT SPECIFIC CASE, I can believe you are a honorable soldier. If, not that's justifying child murder, so......

And please, don't tell me it was time ago, in 1968, and now we're in 2015. Crimes like that have no expiring limit.

As for Russia, say whatever you want. But I simply cannot stand people who say that whatever the armies of other countries do, the army of THEIR COUNTRY is genetically unable to commit such atrocities.

But I respect the fact that at least you believe that the American soldiers don't do that. There are people who are far worse: ones who gladly admit the crime and say it was a good thing, like dropping a bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Killing civilians, babies including, is an ADEQUATE answer to killing soldiers in Pearl Harbor in your opinion?

Every country has skeletons in their closets, but while I think that my country should expose them, some people think it's better to hide them to save the honor of their countries.

To sum it up, I am honestly trying to understand what kind of soldier are you. Do you believe that some things are un-excusable even on the other side on the front line, or is it just statistics for you? Without offense, I don't want to turn this into personal attacks.

I understand what you are saying. I only meant that as far as I know, war changes people for the worst. As I said previously, whatever I might think about the profession of soldier, I admit that it is nevessary due to the shitty situation the world is in. But I don't believe in knights in shining armor. It's much easier to believe in photos of bombed cities, people with their heads blown up etc.

ISIS, Taliban and other scumbags are despicable and should have never existed, but politicians exploit this fight against terrorist for their own interests. For example, the situation in Iraq. Saddam Hussein was a mass murderer, yes. But did the situation become better or worse after the greedy Bush attacked Iraq to get the oil? No Saddam now, but many terroristic groups that kill far more and are far more difficult to control and deal with. Hussein's regime was ferocious, but at least not religiously extremist to the point the ISIS and Taliban are.

In world war 2 the Russian army did a job the German women in Germany.

Can't blame the Russians look at the women in Russia as compared with the German babes. They never saw pussy that good before.

If we did it for oil why isn't iraq oil our oil now. Right after it we could have invade Iran and their oil would have been our oil now.

If I was the president that is what I would have done.

I have to disagree, Russian women are waaaaaay hotter than German women.

The US maybe shouldn't have invaded Iraq, but it could have ended with a stable government taking over. The US handled quickly and defeated the Iraqi army but the US took the wrong actions regarding the aftermath of the Iraqi government and army. With the biggest result being that the sunni minority was pushed out of the government and the fact that many key figures of the Iraqi army were Sunni's that joined ISIS because they hated Maliki's government. First it was Sunni's oppressing the Shia, then their roles changed except the Sunni's kept their military roles. The fact that ISIS even took over Mosul was because the Iraqi soldiers and generals ,whom were Sunni, refused to fight for Maliki, most even joined ISIS.

I think that if the US played their cards right regarding the future of the Iraqi government and army the whole ISIS crisis could have been prevented.

Saddam didn't allow foreign oil companies to operate in Iraq. After the war international companies could get a share from the oil industry. Saddam's regime didn't allow it before and nationalized the oil industry.

At the point a society no longer honors their own warriors, it is a guaranteed indicator you are living in a dying, failing civilization that has lost basic faith in itself and its purpose.

Once we went into Iraq who gives a fuck with saddam allowed. We could have done whatever we wanted.

Sad because it is true. People nowadays are so screwed up that they can't even appreciate, let alone honor, the people that protect their lifes.

as the saying goes: To the victor goes the spoils.

The world itself is a big failure, fact proven by existence of such things as wars and warriors. It has always been like that, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. Humans are violent, but it doesn't mean it should be praised.
Maybe somebody likes seeng people having their heads blown off,and their intestines being knifed out of the body or things like gassings with chemical weapons, I don't, sorry.

And another thing about Iraq. Double, triple endless fuck everybody who was reponsible for the liberation of non-political prisoners in Baghdad and what those thugs did to the local museums. Couldn't the American commanders have been more selective and let go the victims of the regime only? Why should the underworld benefit?
It's like in Sicily during WWII: Sicily free of fascism - all mafiosi out of prison!

A society honoring its warriors doesnt mean they like seeing people get killed. It is the fact that these people sacrifice their lifes for the people that can't defend themselves against violence whether it be an enemy soldier or a psycho killer.

If it really was the motivation behind all the soldiers in the world, I couldn't agree more with your statement. The problem is I don't believe it. I simply don't.
For example, if I talk about Russia, a country I am more entitled to talk to since I was born there rather than the USA: there was a case when an auto with a group of peasants were stopped for perquisition, suspected of being terrorists. Some colonel, after hearing the report that nothing was found, ordered them all to be shot anyway, and the official simply transmitted the order which was executed to the fullest.
To sum it up: several innocent peasants have been killed on order of a paranoic who just didn't like Chechens or thought all Chechens are terrorists. Even if he genuinely believed he protected his country from bombings, attacks or whatever the Chechens do in revenge, does is excuse him anyhow? Does it excuse the official who says he just "obeyed the order".
I don't consider these people as defenders of my country. I don't feel like I own him my life even if in the process they killed some "bad guy" as well. I consider wrong the rule "execute any order without distinction because it's your commander who gives it".

The "Nuremberg Defense" set international precedent saying that you following orders is not an acceptable defense.

But do you go after the person who executed the order, who if they did not follow it could be shot or sent to a military prison.

it started in Vietnam, when you had the president, and the generals lying to the people about the war. when the marines took a hill [hamburger hill] and lost 234 men ioo6 wounded, thought they won the battle, when they left the hill, 3 days later the cong took it back.

sign on a tree on the hill, after the marines left. "was it worth it" maybe you are too young to remember the time Vietnam vets went to Washington and threw their medals away. there was no front line, no objective, It was an idiotic war.

now we are friends with communist Vietnam, trading partners. with good relations, what was gained? 60.ooo dead, for what? the wars now? a sniper coming back bragging about his kills, he even re-enlists so he can kill more. its a volunteer army.

they are mercenaries, brave yes, but, what is the wars endgame? does anyone know? just like 50 years ago, wheres the front line. wheres the progress? where is the return for trillions of dollars spent?

and the biggest question of all. why let the muslims come here? this country is full of them.

Did it really start in Vietnam or Korea? Another idiotic war.

I don't get this, people say it is almost impossible to go to the US, how come that Muslims as you say can go so easily. Damn I am trying to go for an exchange program to NY and the requirements to visit the US for just 5 months are so strict that I cant imagine Arabs, afghans etc. immigrating so easily to the US

When US soldiers first went to Iraq and afganstan they had a day for the wounded soldiers at my local park who came back to the US

These guys were not glad to get out. To a man the wounded soldiers wanted to go back. Even guys who lost a limb wanted to help and go back in some capacity.

In my eyes they just were patriots true American hero's.

The Muslim population in the US is not a big as most think, only about 1%. If they are law abiding citizens what is the problem with allowing a Muslim live here

nothing, we are the land of the free, however im a little wary of a lot of them, maybe I should not be, but I am.

In all honestly you should be wary of everybody. You just never know with some people, and their minds.

The atomic bombs were dropped because the calculations of Allied troops invading mainland Japan would have resulted in more deaths than the two bombs combined. You don't believe me, look it up, thing called a history book. And yeah, we also dropped them to put Russia in their place as a side note (Sorry we tend to do that to you guys A LOT), but hey use it as your main line of defense to call us barbarians.

Two, you can claim rape by the American Army all you want, You weren't there, so I could really care less about the accusations you are throwing out about people you know nothing about. You have efficiently proved yourself to be ignorant and misled on this entire conversation by throwing out accusations that did not happen in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Vietnam? Dude I'm 27, wasn't in Vietnam. Wasn't born when Vietnam happened and surely didn't serve in the army at that time. I am talking about the recent invasion and occupation of Iraq. Because earlier you were accusing us of Rape in the current war that just ended. STOP CHANGING YOUR STORY COMRADE!!! And for the record, no I do not agree with what happened in Vietnam. Those that raped and pillaged should have faced trial for war crimes. But once again I wasn't there nor alive at that time. Of course it is inexcusable to kill a woman and child, and I would never condone it.

You came on here calling soldiers no better than hitman. What do you know of the US armed forces? Honestly, you can quote Vietnam all you want but what do you know? You base your accusations because of what you claim to know of the corrupt crappy Russian army that falters and sputters every ten years then falls on its face.

operation downfall. there was a great documentary on the history channel 10 or so years ago called "X-DAY, the invasion of japan". i forget the exact numbers, but it was something like 1 million projected allied casualties, not to mention the toll on both the japanese military and civilian populations. there was a program put in place with manuals distributed to the japanese civilian population which gave them tips and tactics on how to ambush and stab allied servicemen to death with pointed bamboo spears, which i believe were also distributed. basically, a poor man's volkssturm, minus the panzerfaust and other quality weapons. on top of the countless lives saved on both sides, truman knew that it would have been disastrous, with political suicide being an understatement, if the american public found out that he had a way to end the war and chose not to!

on a somewhat related topic, an unnamed british royal marine commando is now said to hold the new world record, with 173 conformed kills. that .338 lapua magnum is a hell of a round!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/d...est-sniper.html

Here's a quote from Ike in Nov '63 Newsweek:

"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."


Eisenhower, MacArthur and other military brass felt that it was unnecessary, that Japan was ready to surrender but on condition they retain their emperor.

That's really a good reason to justify murder of children, women and old people. No wonder that after talking to americans like you people start thinking (baselessly in reality, I hope) that American is the most arrogant and bloodthirsty nation on earth, right after some islamic groups. On the other hand, people like you don't care.


You are talking like the American army is perfect and less crappy than the Russian one. You don't even know how to talk civilly since you insult Russians as if they were all the same (and as if you knew a thing about Russia and were there even once) and think your opinion has any weight. If you really counted something, you would have more humility. 27 years old... I am 28, you're more or less the same age as me and talk like you were a generation older and were in a position to give me lessons.

And you claim you don't care about my accusations? Then stop reacting to them, or you contradict yourself. Go shoot somebody, it's all you soldiers know how to do.

Anyway, I should have known it. I tried to end it on a good (or at least neutral) note, but you military people only respect people who agree with the murders you commit, since a murder according to you isn't a murder if committed in name of patriotism. Great. Just great

I don't think any army is the problem it's scumbags like Putin and Obama who is fucking things up.

Do you agree?

Agree.

Not to mention the Japanese already figured out our invasion dates and the weather would have made it a disaster. Flooded rice fields would have made the armored cavalry useless as well. Invading Japan would have been the worst decision we ever made.

look at it this way, after the a bombs destroyed japan and, they were nothing but barren fields, it only took them 20 years to build up a economy that was an economic miracle.

it was general douglass macarthur who was in charge of the building up of japan, and my using a free market economy, and American money lifted the Japanese economy to world status.

and germany, and south korea, and all of western Europe. without the marshall plan, and U.S. involvement they would never have been anything.

no country in the world has been as good to a former enemy than the U.S. and forget communism, a free people, and a free market, puts communism in the dust.

It's okay man, you came in and tried calling all soldiers rapists and it backfired.

Then you tried changing the wars from recent to thirty years ago: It backfired again. Especially when I agreed with you that the soldiers in Vietnam should have been prosecuted.

More than one poster came out with the same info on Japan as I posted.

I'm not sure if the Army kicked you out, If you couldn't meet the physical requirements to get in, or if you were just flat out denied. But your bias to all people in uniform screams something more happened to you as a child or you are compensating for something else in life by hating a specific group of people you probably at one time aspired to be. Either way I am pretty sure other posters see straight through your accusations.

LaLou signing off

People fundamentally misunderstand what war is. It's not a nice thing- its back to the state of nature- collateral damage, civilian slaughter, great suffering. It is back to nasty, brutish and short lives. But we try to put a good face on it with these ridiculous rules of engagement, the use of impersonal machinery, references to "international law" and the feel good shit about how we are helping peasants.

When you decide to enter conflict- you better add prolonged civilian slaughter and suffering to the moral calculation. And if that is too much for your sensibilities- then don't enter the conflict to begin with. I'm sick of this half-assed- we can both engage in warfare all over the place and simultaneously put a happy face and happy rules on a brutish situation.

By that standard, the last worthwhile war was probably WWII. And they didn't play by chickenshit rules- they firebombed dresden, executed SS when captured and nuked japan.

Great post. Today we drop a bomb, then we send food to the survivors. It's enough already. It is what it is. War is Hell.

My take, Dwalin? And you know I think you're a nice kid. But there's an expression that's pretty popular in America. It goes something like: Hate the game, not the player. Well, hate the war, not the soldier. And please don't come back with, If every soldier quits there can't be war. Because that would be beyond naive.

its a voluntary army, when someone joins they should know what they are getting into. if you don't want to experience the horrors of war, don't join.