the united states torture or not?

recently a report came to the u,s, senate about the CIA using torture to get information from terroists at guantanomo. the CIA says torture was used to stop terroists attacks such as 9-11

personally I feel torture is indeed justified, if it stops terroists from killing innocent civilians. only in these cases do I think torture is justified.

do you think torture on the part of the USA is justified?

Yes, it's been proven effective. Good enough for them, good enough for us. And not only do I advocate their torture, I'm all for stripping them of any conveniences at places like Guantanemo.

I think it's absurd---I repeat that, it's fucking absurd---that we have to provide them with prayer mats, and copies of the Koran, and Muslim friendly foods. If it was up to me they'd be tortured (really tortured, water boarding ain't shit), and starved to the point where they'd gladly accept a meal of bacon at every meal. If they don't like it, let them starve to death.

well said mr pb, well said. if the rest of the world doesn't like it, too bad. 1 9-11 is too many.

This is old news why did the democrats Finestien bring it up again? What political purpose did that serve?

Next thing you know when the Israel's bulldoze the homes of terrorists families they will call that torture.

A few years ago I would have thought pb's ideas were too extreme. Now, I believe them to be just. Years ago I would have said we need to treat these prisoners fairly because we want our citizens being held prisoner by them to be treated fairly. Well, a few be-headings and a few years later I realize we are at war. It may not be a declared war, but make no mistake about it, we're fighting a war. That means the gloves come off. One fights to win. No such thing as 'fair fighting'. You annihilate your enemy. To hell with the idea that this makes us no better than them. War is hell.

You know me for close to ten years now, SC. And up until a few years ago, PB would have thought that PB's ideas were too extreme.

I was a registered Democrat for thirty years, and liberal on more than a few social issues. That I could go this far the other way speaks volumes about the state of American politics, ESPECIALLY where pandering to Muslims is concerned.

Fire with fire, brother. Them or us. Fuck them.

Obama clips these guys all the time. Is keeping them up with loud music or pouring water on their faces really worse?

Fuck all these guys. They are animals. They deserve fates worse than the CIA can give them.

It's not like they're REALLY being tortured at Gitmo, anyway. There was a report that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times, as in 183 separate instances of waterboarding, when in reality that number represented the number of times the water touched his face.

I'll admit that I'm left leaning in a lot of my political views, but not here. Bring in Jack Bauer!

The protection of our own citizens and those who would be subjugated by these animals must come as our top priorities regarding this issue.

I realize that only a minority of Muslims fit this criteria of extremism that we are fighting against, but I have NO fucking sympathy for Islamists and terror groups intent on this ruthlessness we've seen this past summer and before that.

So in other words: to hell with them. They deserving nothing less.

People who have led sheltered lives are the only ones who are shocked by things like this. People who were not don't really think these things are a big deal.

I can't get too horrified over someone being beheaded or someone being crucified for that matter. They still wind up dead like any shooting or someone being stabbed to death or getting hit with a baseball bat a few times. I think if you really want to torture someone let them know that their families will die the same way if they don't spill the beans. If they still won't bring some family members and show them that your not kidding. Probably a lot easier to capture someone in their family then it was to capture them. A picture s worth a thousand words.

On someone dying getting his with a baseball bal I would only wonder if he died with a Mickey mantle model or a harmon Killabrew model. I would probably recommend a Harmon Killabrew model.

Do you really think they care?? They are godless souls. They are prepared to die for their cause. We are facing a tougher enemy than we've ever fought before. You have to kill them, you have to kill their families, you have to kill their neighbors and their friends and their friends' families. The only thing they understand is violence. You have to become them to beat them.

Your right that's why no socalled journalists should be allowed with our troops.

I know what I believe, but I am very surprised so many here agree. There is hope for us yet.

They mention "rectal rehydration" in the report. Those assholes probably loved it. Fuck them!

I read the other day ISIS is claiming they have smuggled a dirty radiation bomb into Europe. I guess it's possible since they reportedly stole some uranium this past summer but hopefully they're bluffing.

I also read in todays NY Post that ISIS is trying to sell for a million dollars the body of a American journalist they killed. Lowlife scumbags!

If these guys had something they would use it.

When I was a kid if someone threatened us, and said something like I am going to go home and get my gun. We believed him and made sure he never left to go home and get his gun.

On a million for a dead body. Cover the money with small pox and deliver it to Syria. Let them pass that around to their terrorist friends.

Sadly, the story will never change. These fanatical cells will pop up like whack a moles because they rarely receive the same injustices they committed against others of a different religion or skin tone.

When I was on tour, we had to follow Geneva Laws to a Tee, and these "Mooslims" were hiding behind civilians, beheading people, and running a muck.

To defeat the enemy one must adapt to the enemies methods. That would ultimately lead to us committing the same level of violence towards them as they have towards us. AKA you behead one of ours, we behead ten of yours.

Of course this will never happen because the media and its presence has altered the nature of war so drastically that a straight and narrow line must be walked by the military at all times of conflict.

Well so far its unanimous. Reading these posts anyone who disagrees may get cyber-neutered.

The atrocities that humans subject each other to are sometimes very difficult to comprehend. When I see footage of the Nazi death camps I shudder. But as it has been said here, the only way to combat terror is with terror. I read once that a jungle tribe would take a captured enemy and impale them on a sharpened pole in their rectum. The pole would be near an ant nest. The ants would then parade up the pole and eat the person from the inside out. That sounds reasonable.

If you haven't read "Lone Survivor" I recommend it. It paints a good picture of the militant Muslim and what our strategy should be.

It's good to see that most here (some I would least suspect) see the light. It's just too bad we have liberal politicians like Feinstein and others trying to make political hay by releasing this clearly partisan and one-sided report. But it's typical liberal thinking that's entirely based on moral relativism and leads to calling the good guys "bad" and the bad guys "good."

Anyway, in answer to the original post, no it's not torture. And hell yes it's justified. They were saying on the radio yesterday how some military personnel undergo waterboarding as part of their training. And the CIA only used it on a limited basis with a handful of top Al-Qaeda figures who it was believed had knowledge about attacks still in the works. That this is even a discussion it's no wonder Muslim extremists think the West is soft.

being soft results in 9-11s. innocent americans being killed for no reason, what did the victims of 9-11 do to anyone?
what's wrong with using tactical nuclear weapons? why can't we just turn some of them to dust. hit an isis camp and nuke it.
it doesn't have to be 100 megaton, it can be smaller but, they wont behead anyone else if they are all baked.

The statement released by Feinstein made me want to vomit. And of course the goddamn Huffington Post (which I was just reading) posts it on their website then has a list of reactions below from prominent politicians. Out of the 16 presented, 14 were your run of the mill liberal lefty Democrats and only 2 were Republicans. And as usual the Dems were in complete and utter horror and while McConnell and Rubio called out the report as biased and a slap in the face to our veterans who fought in the Middle East.

I'm not saying I always align with the GOP, but some of these Senators have to be either ignorant or just plain stupid. Civil Rights and good conduct mean nothing to these people, the people we detain would cut off their heads and kill their families if they could. The CIA isn't the Salvation Army by any means, but in this case I have no problem with what they did. When it comes to the security of this nation, take no chances and these assholes in Washington are taking a big roll of the dice by releasing this report. I hope the people at our embassies stay safe.

You're wearing them down, Ivy. Before you know it they'll be supporting the Second Amendment .

Enhanced interrogation has been signed off on by the last two administration's DOJ, yet the Senate Demo-brats have seen fit to expose our CIA people, not to mention our State Dept. people abroad to greatly increased danger. I could give a damn less what our intelligence ops do to terrorists...as far as I'm aware, they have yet to decapitate one of those animals...and wouldn't care if they did. Where has America's collective testosterone gone...we have been so co-opted by the far left to the point that the middle now appears to be the far right.

Haven't you been paying attention, Old School? There are more important things going on in America today. Like hands up play dead at Columbia University .

I've been wondering why no one at my old alma mater LSU has yet to play dead.....I guess we common southern folk don't have the organization and manpower to muster that kind of a statement (emphasize southern dialect if you will)....

Yep and we continue to give these bastards everything on a silver platter. Fuck them. Playing the nice guy gets us stuff like Korea and Vietnam. Doing what we have to do gave us WWI and WWII and even the Civil War. Did I agree with things like Sherman's March? No, but it stopped the war and stopped millions of others from dying too. They did what they had to do to stop the war. We should use those same tactics today. Waterboarding should be the least of our worries. If you are a proven terrorist then they should be able to do with you what they wish. I agree with PB they should feed those bastards bacon and everything else they don't eat. You don't get to pick your food in prison, so they shouldn't be able to pick theirs in great ol Cuba either. If they don't want to eat then that is their fault..

They had a small march here in town the other night screaming the same shit. I still wonder why they scream that when Brown never even said it? Freaking morons...

This is because at least 50% of this country have brains of mush and all they know of politics/world events is what they read on a bumper sticker or from that wise old sage John Stewart.

Make sure they keep that protesting in the city limits if you pass through Butler, I have a lease I need to keep up

Congresswoman Jackie Speier is saying that the CIA should apologize to those they tortured. Meaning the CIA should apologize to the terrorists.

KILL the cia.

Very intelligent and well versed response. Excellent use of verb placement proceeding the subject.

Kill yourself, asshole.

oh geeze, who let Lester out of his cage without his football helmet and arm floaties?

UP THE I R A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sLSqrzuLwo

at what point do we become the monster we are trying to eradicate?

I guess the geneva conventions only apply to countries not named The United States of America.

that's pretty fucking shameful and insulting to use a picture of somebody's last moments alive to make a political statement.

Osama won...this country today is but a shade of its former self pre 9-11. we have a populace that is so afraid of its own shadow, that it's willing to give up rights just for a sense of security. whether it be the patriot act, or whatever, all you have to say is "9/11" and "allah" and bam....government does what it wants and takes more and more. you people bitch about the nsa spying on our own citizens, but at the cry of 9/11 or "never forget" you tell them to continue business as usual.


I'm assuming when we start waterboarding our own citizens as long as the government says they were suspected of something it will be okay?

Osama is dead. The man that claimed to have orchestrated the deaths of thousands during 9-11 and was the leading figure of the insurgency that killed thousands more in the Middle East. So let's round it off to say (let's be very conservative) ten thousand AMERICAN LIVES that were ended from this man and his ideology and hatred towards America. Yet you claim it to be shameful of America to display his body and show his last moments?

That wasn't shown for war propaganda, that was shown by Obama at a crucial point when his ratings were down. I'd be willing to bet his body was in the White House for half a year in a sealed bag that said: "Obama: Break seal at lowest job approval point to create political distraction. Sincerely, Hillary"

Do you even know why Osama hated America? Never mind, I'll educate you today on facts and not biased information you get from your preferred trustworthy news network.

The Taliban as we know it started as guerrilla warfare fighters to stand against the USSR (That's the Soviets). At this time we were in a cold war with the USSR and openly objected to Russia's imminent invasion of the Middle East since our main priority was to stop the spread of Communism.. Russia decided it would make a move for power and defy us, so guess what, they invaded despite widespread criticism by numerous nations.

The US had three options:

A. Back down with no action on the World's stage and lose credibility.
B. Send traditional fighting forces (That's our branches: Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force) and risk an all out war with the Soviets which would have probably ended in MAD warfare and me not writing this right now. (That's Mutually Assured Destruction from Thermonuclear Weapons)
C. Covertly send clandestine agency's to train and equip the Taliban to combat the Soviet's on a Consistent basis.

....We Chose C.....

In layman's terms, the US government took a group of Afghans and turned them into a formidable fighting force. The US empowered the Taliban, the Taliban didn't empower itself.

Let's fast forward to the end of the war with Russia pulling out and the Afghans winning against the Red Army. Hey everything is awesome, the USA had relatively little bloodshed lost and were in sole position as the world's dominant superpower.

It was at this point when left and headed back to the states that Osama decided that us funding his little army wasn't good enough. He felt as if the US government used his people to keep Russia into a prolonged conflict and drain it's resources.

And boy was he pissed...

Fast forward to 9-11, we are talking about 30 years down the road.

You do understand that it didn't matter if Bush or Gore was president; Osama was planning either way. So let's not get politics into this since the share was to equally blame among ourselves. Either party would have been faced with the same decision. What else would we have done, not taken action for the senseless acts of violence committed towards OUR OWN PEOPLE? Protesting always works, maybe we should have done that instead.

As well as for your Geneva conventions remark, would you care to elaborate on that a little more?? Your saying the execution (I'm talking beheading) of unarmed news reporters and civilians is the equivalency of water boarding the men who carried out these deaths or at least controlled the people that did?

If Osama won, ISIS would be using his name as a martyr for a rallying call before going into battle...I mean skirmishes, because they shoot then run. They only play tough guy when they capture an unarmed person, subdue him to where he cannot fight back, then rant about "Allah and tacos and Easy E" and some other inaudible then cut the poor guys head off.

Osama is dead, the Taliban has almost entirely been replaced by ISIS, turn the page.

It's like I said, Whack a mole, knock down one, out pops another. It'll never end, they've been doing it to each other for centuries. Their relevancy only continues because of the petroleum deposits beneath them. Once the middle east is dried up and can no longer produce, no one is going to lend assistance to them. They will be the new Africa with famine, war and genocide among each other.

What if we water board Serial Killers? Would you object to that? Technically they are our countrymen too, I mean you gotta take the good with the bad right?

Are the people who are at war with us follow the Geneva convention? To bad the person living his last moment was not related to you. I want to hear you say the same then.

I want to three funerals after 9/11. I don't see death like others so that did not bother me. It bothered the people that were with me.

Osama won well Osama was thrown in an ocean. Hopefully the people who threw him in pissed on him first.

Right after it people were afraid to walk around in the city. Unlike you and me but we are both tough guys aren't we?

We are different then most people aren't we?

You forgot to mention tge government using tge IRS against their own citizens. Now those guys and this administration they are full of cock suckers right?

Our President Obama denies knowing anything about anything. Do you believe that I don't how about you?

the torture that the CIA used was because we had to know what the terroists had, and when and where they were going to use it,

we to this day don't know what they have. do they have or soon to have a dirty bomb? one that can kill 100,000 people. they say they do.

do they have chemical weapons they can use against us? in major U.S. cities. when we capture a terrorist we must know what they plan to do with what they have.

it,s all about saving American lives, it has to be done or we could see a dirty bomb go off in N.Y. harbor, or san fransisco bay. we have to keep on top of it.

would feinstine be against torture if the terroists hid a dirty bomb in san fransisco, would she be against waterboarding then?

there's no debate it all about saving American lives.

It's very wrong and I don't feel comfortable admitting it Binnie but its come to the point where will take more incidents for people to become sincerely united.

Americans have made this huge shift in attitude about "me, me, me!" Instead of sometimes thinking what would be better for the future of the country, for the future of our kids.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but they rarely care about what others think as long as they are pushing their agenda or their political party's agenda. AND that's a whole other argument, because only around thirty percent of Americans are thoroughly educated on what either party stands for. People pick one piece they like about a party and take a hard line stance without even understanding what they are arguing about.

I have no doubt that if Obama got on TV tonight and said "All democrats report to the concentration camps tomorrow for basket weaving" a couple million American Democrats of all races would run to stand in line not realizing he just said he's going to commit genocide. All they heard was "Democrats" and came running to formation.

Democrats on here don't get mad, I used him first because he is the incumbent.

Few years ago if Bush said "Republicans report to the concentration camps for basket weaving" a couple million righties would be fighting for line position.

Sorry to use such drastic examples, but that's how dependent and closed minded our society has become. We don't think or look at the big picture. God forbid another attack happens and American lives are lost. But I guarantee you, if a family member was lost to an individual riding the "never torture any human being under any circumstance" wagon, he or she would be at the White House demanding an invasion.

Is torture wrong? Yea, you know what it is, but we aren't picking up random people and flying them to Cuba to play "Hostel". Intelligence studies propaganda videos online, surveillance, phone records, photos of camps to decipher who is important. They don't take in a low level recruit from a raided camp and torture him, they already know he has no Intel on the whereabouts or objectives of the higher ups. The guys in Cuba are there for doing some pretty bad stuff. These aren't hotdog vendors that got picked up in a dope raid by mistake from the city police, that's not how it works on this level.

What do the people that stand against torturing people want us to do? Strictly surveillance? Leave them alone? If they get out they are flying straight back to their cells and plotting their next attack against a target of opportunity. That's what these people don't understand. These terrorist cells are not doing this to gain political support, or liberate the Middle East from evil dictators. They sincerely hate everything we stand for because we do not practice or follow the same customs and religion as they do. It's shallow minded and only a relatively small percentage of them, kind of like the Nazi's are a fringe of the white race, but just as simple minded and cannot be reasoned or negotiated with because they can't see past skin color or religion.

That's the point that a lot of these "no torture" softies miss. It's not like the CIA is abducting taxi drivers from their homes in the middle of the night and shipping them off to Gitmo, HOPING that they have the right guy. If you have made it to Guantanamo Bay, it's because you've been up to some pretty awful shenanigans.

And in a perfect scenario, waterboarding would be the least of these scumbags' worries.

If they're beheading other Americans, or flying airplanes into tall buildings, then the short answer is yes.

Did you lose any family or friends in the 9/11 attacks?

You're insulted? Tough!

I was waiting for you to reply because I didn't want to speak for you. But as usual, you didn't disappoint me .

we don't now, or ever have, tortured people for no reason, but, as I posted. we can't lose sight of the fact that they planned 9-11 for 4 years,

do people realize that isis or groups like them could hit us with an a- bomb if they had plutonium triggers. and they can be had, by terroists working within nuclear states, [Pakistan, india]

there is a purpose to torture, and that purpose is to find out what they have, and where there going to use it.

What the fuck is going on in this country, these scumbags torture all the innocent people they kidnap, they fucking blow up children and then have the nerve to expect rights reserved for American citizens that they hate cause of our lifestyle is too decadent, and I cant stand the way the media interviews these people and puts word in there mouths, send them to Pakistan and see how bad the feel about our interrogation program then.

Don't bother, Binnie. First of all, I think he's just a kid because when he signed up last year he identified himself as being very young. Second of all, this is the same guy who whined in the Columbine thread about being bullied, like that justifies mass murder. He should direct his anger where it belongs: At his father, for raising him to be such a pussy.

And I know. I'm mean, wah wah wah. I'm a bully, wah wah wah. But I'm tired of apologizing, and I just don't have the patience anymore. Go out and live a little bit before you pass judgement on the very people who keep this country safe while you whine about waterboarding on a message board.

Good post. I just posted something similar about letting these kids get a little life experience before judging the very military that protects their right to cry about it.

good post, mr. pb, good post.

I don't feel pity for the terrorists, but what troubles me about torture is that so far, everything that has been claimed will only be used to fight terror winds up right here being used on us. Think of domestic spying and the Patriot act in general. First it was for foreign terrorists, then for gangs and drug dealers, then for anyone causing a disturbance at the airport, and now they're roaming the streets with that sting ray shit picking up any random phone calls. So I can't really say I trust that they won't bring torture here some day. They would be following their usual pattern if they did. Since when did cops have tanks and military weapons? Now they do. Something ain't right..

Let me ask you this: If your child was kidnapped by two people, and one of them gets away with your kid, and the other gets caught by the cops. And the guy who gets caught has knowledge of where his partner took your kid. Would you really give a fuck if they chopped his fingers off one at a time to get your kid back?

If you can honestly say that you'd stop them from doing that because it offends your sensibilities, then I'll respect that. I won't believe you, but I'll respect it. And I don't even like most cops. But worrying about a slippery slope where a bunch of ragheads are concerned just isn't that high on my to do list.

No I would want them tortured of course. But 2 things come to mind. One is that I'm afraid that means I'm thinking more with emotions than level - headed thinking, but I would still go for torture. I'd do it myself. The other thing is that you made the biggest case that's hard to say no to. So while I would say yes to that, I wouldn't want the same being done to a drug dealer or even a gang member

Fair enough, buddy .

I just don't get it. Not only does this torture report seem one sided and biased, but Feinstein and the rest of these Democrats are putting our embassies and citizens abroad at risk!

I talked to a good friend of mine who's a veteran from World War 2 the other day and he said in the old days people may have disagreed on a lot of issues, but no one would EVER compromise American security just to gain political points.

This is the fucking country we live in now. Hell that Senator from Colorado who lost reelection called for the CIA to apologize to those who were tortured. What kind of complete and utter bullshit is that? That's like asking me to apologize to the guy who murdered my family because afterwards I beat him with a crowbar. Who the hell would give a shit about what kind of comfort these people have? Regular crooks are one thing, terrorists who would cut off your head if Allah asked him to, are quite another.

no matter how low obama's job approval rating was, the congress/house we just re=elected was infinitely lower.


I'm sorry but the corpses of victims of the 9/11 terror attacks is not a reason for my rights to be eroded.

I said the same thing about the new town victims and school shootings.

No-where in my post was I whining about being bullied. you just apparently can't fucking read.

is there anything about myself being bullied? nope. its more about personal responsibility....the thing you righties talk so much about. except of course, only when it comes to you.


The fact of the matter is, every one of you toby keith bible thumping retards has absolutely been at fault for the nsa surveillance, the torture, the debt, and basically ruining america for the next hundred fucking years. if it doesn't collapse. you know why? because you are fucking dumb...and terrified.

you let a government you claim to distrust so much walk all over a constitution you've never read (or..atleast..at best....fail to understand) and trample your rights every time they mention isis...or whatever the latest muslim boogeyman is. you would have been good little nazi's.

I can agree with most of your post it was actually well written out and historically accurate. yes, we essentially created al qeada.
however, osama may be dead, but he still won.
1. the dollar is weak
2. the world markets are pretty much unstable
3. americans are willing to give up basic rights for a sense of security

through one act of terror he essentially changed how Americans function and think. mission accomplished....

I don't care about bush or gore, what i'm saying is you can't pay for two wars on a credit card. we fucked the next 2 or 3 generations with this debt.

Yes I would object to the waterboarding of serial killers. you know why? because you can't pick and choose what parts of the constitution or law you want to follow. or international law for that matter. What seperates us from those animals if we just do the same shit they do? now would I like to torture them? yeah sure.



would everybody here please stop calling me a liberal? i'm far from it.

you mean when the irs investigated those clearly politically affiliated groups that were claiming a non profit church status?

come on...common sense here.

as for the rest of your argument, again, the corpses of 9/11 victims are not a reason to erode the constitution and ignore international law.

LOL war on terror.....we got the department of homeland security that investigates copyright infringement and illegal downloading. look it up

gimme a fuckin ' break.

I don't really want to get involved into the argument about whether torture is ok in this case from an ethical point of view, although I hate both terrorists and secret services (since they have been involved in many crimes, it's not like they are just terrorist-fighting "knights in shining armor").
However, I wanted to ask: why do people here continuously talk only about AMERICA, saving AMERICAN lives, protecting AMERICAN citizens? It's not like terrorists hit only America, and it's not like the victims with other citizenships don't matter.

that's right they will hit anyone so talk about them. We talk about the people they have killed that are american's. You can talk about the ones that are not american's.

again, the corpses of 9/11 victims are not a reason to erode the constitution and ignore international law.

[/quote]

Again what if one of the corpses were your mother? Still feel the same way? If you could still feel the same. Then we really are a lot a like or your lying.

Persoanlly I cant really love anyone. But I can feel revenge

I can read just fine. And what you posted about a bullying problem leads me to believe that you had your lunch money swiped a few times. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.


You were in 7th grade when Columbine happened? That makes you all of 27 years old now. I have two kids your age and one a little younger. Live a little before you pass judgement. And by the way, I'm not a righty. And I don't enjoy being referred to as one any more than you enjoy being called a liberal. I was a Democrat for thirty years before I wised up to what happened to that party.

Because we live in America, Dwalin. It's human nature to think of your own first. But please don't make it out like America doesn't do things for other countries. Because if we'd just mind our own fucking business and let other countries handle their own problems, we wouldn't have half the problems that we have today.

Geez ease up there buddy. Pointing fingers never helped anybody

Ok, let's talk about your first point, the dollar is weak.

You are correct. The dollar has lost substantial value in the past few decades, but you cannot throw all of your apples in one basket by blaming the occupation of the Middle East as the sole downfall of the American and world markets.

Bush reacted rapidly in a situation where the American public was pushing for action. I will be the first to admit that America did not need a standing army of 120,000 soldiers to topple the Saddam regime. It was an overstatement of American power. We didn't use the lessons of history from the Soviets in Afghanistan and bogged ourselves down in a decade long occupation which caused unnecessary debt and death.

BUT, you have to factor in other aspects as to why the dollar is weak.

For the past fifteen years, China has been on a steady growth. China isn't jumping into world politics and trying to be the life of the party unless it is directly involved in it's own region. They have focused on infrastructure and self growth which has created sustained revenue and enticed more outside investors to begin pouring in money for profit. America has gone away from this (think of where all of your clothes and products are made now?).

We also have to look at the amount of trade countries do import and export wise. America has probably one of the worst ratios due to the fact that we are importing everything from other countries such as oil. The oil explanation I can go into further detail about in another post with the limited amounts the world has left and why we haven't tapped into our own resources to ensure when there is no oil left, we are the last nation in the world that won't be relying on a electrical socket to charge a battery to a 35 ton Abrams tank.

Lastly, our own government and it's policy making has dealt a massive blow to the economy due to certain bills passed. That's all I'm going to say about this point and most of you already know what I'm talking about. I'm not naming names or political parties because the radicals on both sides will come out of the wood works and make this thread a huge pissing match.

Luckily, we've been in this situation before and came out of it alright. There is no world superpower that can challenge our military. Russia tries to say they are back every 10-15 years, invades a country ten feet away then regresses to crap over the next ten years and blames western politics. America isn't what it used to be, but we aren't giving the government total control. The democrats have the house for eight years and we are going to be communists says the right. The republicans take the house for the next eight years and we are going to be Nazis says the lefts.

At the end of the day it all evens out. As long as amendment One and Two are never altered or removed, we as a nation will be fine and bounce back. If that ever does happen though, move to Africa, its gonna be paradise compared to this place.

Damn I knew you were in the Black Belt but Choctaw County there isn't shit but hunting land! You are definitely the minority in that county.

LaLou you know what town I live in, and it was started at the historically black college that is here so that should tell you something.

That's right. I get so sick of the "feed the poor kids in Africa" commercials because we have starving kids here in the States that need it FIRST AND FOREMOST.

And you are right about the other countries too. If we sat back and did nothing they'd be speaking German over there now plus the fact we wouldn't have every sand camel with a scarf after us either. Let them kill each other in the sand and in Ukraine, I could care less. We need to make sure kids get insurance and food over here and our elderly are taken care of. America became so strong because we stood up and done something, the others have become so sissy-fied that they always want us to do their dirty work and I'm sick of it. We should cut off aid to every freaking country we send it too and keep it for ourselves to help our own.

I don't see how a president can smile while talking about sending aid to feed others (they never mention we send them missles and grenades, etc. in those aid packages) when we should be feeding our own people or even using that money for healthcare.

That's where I'm at now. They all hate us anyway, so why bother?

If we could feed and clothe every American, eradicate homelessness here in America, and achieve these things FIRST, then I have no problem helping other countries. But until then? Nope, not anymore.

Same goes for these commercials with your Hollywood types crying over homeless pets. I love animals myself, but give me a break. At the end of the day, I firmly believe that most animals were put here to eat. And again, feed and clothe every American first, then if you want to worry about the animal kingdom, more power to you.

you are right about the pet commercials, why don't they show all the homeless right here in the U.S.? are animal lives worth more than human lives?

Dang I missed your whole post while ranting earlier Dixie. I'll have to look it up, I'm not really familiar with the area. I get lost every time we have to turn down one of the clay roads.

I get so sick of hearing this. Except for taking longer to get through the line at the airport, which has never been a "constitutional right," what "rights" has anyone lost after 9/11? Get the hell out of here with that crap.

Surely doing something ie torture is better than doing nothing? The arguement that they will tell you want you want to hear is nonsense, it's formed from movies etc-you ask questions in the correct way and you'll get good answers. It's worked for thousands of years and its the only thing I'd copy that our stone age enemies apply on a daily basis

The whole premise behind saying it's justified is the claim that the ends justify the means. But they aren't if they don't achieve those ends. What do I mean?

Just because you water board someone or sleep deprive them and make them stand up for hours on broken limbs (as was done by the United States) does not mean you prevented all terrorist attacks. You cannot prove a negative.

There are many experts who feel that torture is actually ineffective, many of them quite prominent. I think Mike Levine former DEA agent is one of them. What is said is that after a certain point, the information given by the prisoner becomes useless.

It's the perfect alibi for you if you violated international law to say that "according to your sources" you prevented a certain specific number of terrorist attacks. That's very convenient.

My honest opinion...I think torture is the lazy approach. It's the easy way out. Listen, if a group of people are dangerous to you, ban them from the country, period. Don't even let them in. Don't break the law in my name and then let 30 terrorists in with visas on the next inbound flight. That's lazy.

Edit: And if we are SO against terrorism and torturing prisoners over it, why in the world is the MTA in New York City filling the underground stations with WiFi???

That's a little dangerous, no?

First, what the U.S. engaged in was enhanced interrogation, not torture. And even then it was selectively used on certain high level terrorists who had knowledge of other attacks that were planned. And it's just one tool among many that the government uses against terrorists. No point in taking it off the table because it offends the delicate sensibilities of liberal pansies.

I think the pansies are the politicians who are afraid to lock down the country. If they are concerned about the diplomatic ramifications of shutting down immigration from terrorist sponsoring countries, then they should let people in on official business....and watch them. That's what Homeland Security is supposed to be for.

In the resultant quid pro quo, those terrorist sponsoring countries would let Americans into their country who are likewise only on official business, corporate or governmental, and then everyone is happy.

I don't see the problem with it. Americans don't want Muslims around, for the most part, due to the sheer discomfort of what they might represent, and Muslims should have no desire to live in a country they consider decadent (the USA). No, but instead of getting tough with terror, they punk out and let thousands of Muslims into the country and torture people while the NYC subways are getting wireless internet underground in the aftermath of the subway terror attacks of London and Madrid. Dumb.

I'm not sure I quite understand your point on shutting down the country to stop terrorism. If terrorists want to plot an attack on American soil, they don't need a green card. Ask the illegals that cross the border or arrive on the gulf coast. We catch what,20-30 percent maybe?

Your using the "just because you waterboard someone you don't prevent all terrorists attacks" to justify it, yet it is the same negative as saying "locking down the country will prevent all terrorist attacks from happening."