Staten Island choke hold death- no indictment

The cop did not get indicted.
First, let me reiterate my stance on Ferguson. I totally agree with the no indictment, that cop was doing his job and defending himself. No way that was racially motivated. No offense to the michael brown family but he was a worthless piece of shit. End of story.
Todays decision NOT to indict the staten island cop !!! I am Shocked. He most certainly should of been indicted. I do not think race played a part, i just think the cop watched too many UFC matches and probably took some half assed martial arts classes a d was dying to see if a choke hold could put someone to sleep. So the guy dies even after saying he couldnt breath. That was negligent homicide in my opinion and i am actually bothered by that grand jury decision.

My problem with this case is the way the media handled it. I wasn't there, I don't know what happened. All I know is, cops kill White guys now and again, too. And you can't tell me that it would have been met with nearly as much mock outrage from the media if the victim was White.

And I realize that's neither here nor there, as far as Eric Garner goes. But the media is just so culpable in fanning the flames in these cases that it makes me wish that these news anchors here in New York would be put out of their Upper West Side apartments and forced to live in Brownsville for a week or two.

You had to see them by Rockefeller Center earlier (I wasn't there, I'm a little sick anyway, but I was watching on television). They kept going on and on and on about how it wouldn't be surprising if people showed up to protest because tonight was the night they light the tree. They were literally taking it upon themselves to invite a protest down there. Peaceful or not, the media should NOT have any say in where and when people are going to protest. They make me sick to my stomach.

I see this case as a LOT different than what happened in Missouri. I felt bad for Garner.... I don't think he was doing anything wrong and I think the cop who put the choke hold on him over-reacted. Really tough call on whether or not the cop should have been indicted.

What is striking to me about this no bill is that Charles Krauthammer on Brett Baier's Special Report this evening stated that he was shocked at the no bill. When Krauthammer apparently sides with the victim against law enforcement it's time to check if hell has frozen over.

He's a brilliant guy, though. He's as far to the right as Rachael Maddow is to the left. But I wouldn't want to debate either one of them. They're too smart for their own good, but they usually eat up and spit out the opposition in their respective television spots.

All the guy was doing was selling loose cigarettes on the street. That cop choked him out and wouldn't let go. Honestly at the least i thought this cop should of been indicted for excessive force. The victim wasn't resisting as far as i know.

I think he was being defensive while putting cuffs on him, but honestly I would think most would do that. Innocent or guilty. He did start complying with the officer soon after the choke hold was on him, but officer wouldn't stop even after Garner told him he couldn't breath.

It should have been a routine arrest. Garner resisted arrest and the cop used a choke hold. Both men made pretty bad decisions if you ask me.
Now you have to ask yourself was the officer justified in using the force to subdue Garner. From my understanding it is NOT ILLEGAL to use the choke hold. That's why I think after the jury thought this over they decided not to indict the cop.

And that's also a very valid point. A grand jury in the most liberal city in the United States delivered a no true bill. It couldn't have been an easy decision either way.

Actually the police department banned the maneuver back in '93. So, the choke hold was illegal.

' An autopsy by the city’s medical examiner found that Mr. Garner’s death was a homicide resulting from the chokehold — a maneuver banned by the Police Department in 1993 — and the compression of his chest by police officers.'

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/nyregi...arner.html?_r=0

By no means do i endorse those that fan the flames of racism. As i said, i strongly supported the officer in Ferguson and applauded the courage of the grand jury.
However, i truly think the grand jury in Staten Island got it totally wrong. Because the video is so overwhelming in my opinion, this was a travesty and i really feel for the guy ( Gardner). There was no reason for that cop not to lighten up on that choke hold when Gardner clearly couldnt breath. If i was in a choke hold and couldnt breath, i would be fighting for my life.
The choke hold wasnt illegal, it was against policy. It was illegal to continue to choke him while he was clearly helpless. That could of easily been any one of us who was in that choke hold.
Ive taken some beatings by cops and looking back, i deserved it, this guy did not.

And that's why I said it was a tough call. Strict interpretation of a legality. Just the same, the victim, Garner, was surrounded and outnumbered by cops and it was clear he had no weapon. To me, it was also clear he was in anguish about not being able to breathe. The cop was just plain wrong with his use of excessive force.

I don't see it as a tough call when the boy said more than once "I cant breathe", what do you want, its obvious that it was a petty crime, and a man is dead. how can that be a tough call? did you see the video? as a poster said. choke holds have been banned since "93' it was to me an easy call. he should have been indicted, the evidence is the video,

I worry that when someone says this is an easy call it is a sign of a pre-determined agenda. No matter, the police have to have some leeway in every confrontation. They have to protect themselves and oftentimes it comes down to a matter of interpretation as to the degree of the cop's use of force.

ok, granted, but the video is very damaging to the police.

that' all I meant, people see that and hear him say ' I can't breathe" and man you can see trouble.

No argument from me on that. I heard that the first time I saw and listened to the tape. Garner saying (almost pleading) that he couldn't breathe was REAL. He wasn't faking that.

I feel very badly for the Garner family. Such a petty crime to have to die for. This is something you may be interested in reading.

In an interview with the AmNews, the freshman lawmaker said one measure will ban chokehold altogether. Although the take-down maneuver is prohibited by NYPD departmental policy, officers still use it. There’s no law that makes it illegal.

“The bill would make it clear that chokehold will only be used depending on the situation the officers are in,” the lawmaker said.

Under another bill, city District Attorneys will prosecute cases of negligence assaults for inappropriate use of force. He said the prosecution will prove whether an officer is justified in using the force to subdue someone.

The lawmaker told the AmNews that the move to make chokeholds illegal, stems from the July 17 chokehold death of Staten Island man Eric Garner. He was placed in the prohibited police tactic by NYPD officer Daniel Pantaleo. Relatives, activists and some council members argued that the use of force was unnecessary.

Garner, 43, was approached for allegedly selling untaxed cigarettes on Staten Island. After being placed in a chokehold and taken to the ground, Garner could be heard repeatedly saying to the officers, “I can’t breathe.” Weeks later, the city medical examiner’s office ruled Garner’s death a homicide as a result of the chokehold. They said his health conditions, obesity and high blood pressure were also contributing factors to his death.

A Staten Island grand jury began hearing evidence to determine if there will be criminal charges. Pantaleo and the other officers were not arrested and charged. Last month, Garner’s family filed a $75 million lawsuit against the city.

The possibility of getting the bills passed and approved depends in large part with the support of the Police Commissioner William Bratton. At a City Council oversight hearing in September, Bratton made it clear that he would not support a law that calls to ban chokeholds, when asked by Lancman.

“I won’t support It,”said Bratton at the time. “I feel that department policies are sufficient, that if lawmakers want to try to make that against the law, well, good luck, but I will not support it.”

After being arrested over 30 times maybe The criminal felt this was goig to be his last stance and that is why he resisted this arrest and certainly found out he was not physically fit to do so.

Maybe he should have remained home if he was not feeling well rather than go out and take on the law.

Whenever I had a run in with Law Inforcement, I followed direction, shown & earned respect and did not cause threat which would insure a smooth process leading to release.

These guys are bums, losers. Who in their right mind would stand up for them other than people who can line their pockets or get social gain in uneducated circles, that will leed to lining their pockets.

DP

DP, your statements are ridiculous. The guy was selling cigarettes., give me a break. I guess if he was drinking a beer in public that would warrant getting choked to death. That cop is a bully in my book and didnt know how to handle himself in that kind of situation.
We can debate this forever but lets look at the facts.
1) it was a petty crime. The cops knew this wasnt a violent situation.
2) there were a bunch of cops and only ONE victim ( Gardner).
3) he was clearly subdued, and out numbered.
4) he clearly stated he could'nt breath while he was being choked.
5) the cop kept on choking him despite hearing him say he couldnt breath and despite knowing he was restrained. The cop could of easily loosened up his grip but he CHOSE NOT TO.
The video is as clear as day and i have a huge problem as an american, watching that poor guy get choked to death. This was wrong, no doubt about it and as i said, i cannot fathom how a grand jury didnt indict this guy.

Hey two guys doing their jobs, ones a criminal the other a cop, they both know some days are easy some days are hard but no one wants the other guy to take a heart attack and die.

I'm sure the guy just wanted to sell his smokes and the cop just wanted to keep order.

DP

I too feel that this case differs from the one in Ferguson. In my mind there was enough evidence to suggest Brown attacked Darren Wilson and tried to take away his weapon, which is why Wilson was justified in shooting him.

In this case, although Eric Garner, was doing something technically illegal, the cop did not have to do what he did. Subdue him if he was resisting arrest, but as Binnie said when he said 'I can't breathe' that shocked me. It just hit a lot closer to home with the panic you could hear in his voice.

That regardless again we must respect the grand jury's decision. I don't have sympathy for those looters in Ferguson, but I do feel for whoever cared about Garner. He certainly did not deserve to die

great post Belmont. you laid it out like a defense attorney,
point by point, everybody should read this post.

how anyone can question this post is beyond me.

Michael brown got what he had coming to him. This guy that got choked tho.. wow. What a load of shit. Cops are gonna end up turning the masses against them in a big way

The real criminals are the dirt bags who taxed cigs to the point that they run 12 bucks a pack. They're just begging for a huge black market. The cops need to choke some of these politician crooks

Agreed. Selling cigarettes, and resisting arrest are NOT death penalty crimes.And I thought choke holds were against NYPD's own rules.

I think the leaders of any march here in NYC will be smart enough to extort a million from NBC not to march when they light up the tree. Like some did during the Thanksgiving day parade.

If they dont do that they need a new leader they should call me.

On News groups suggesting that this would be a great time to protest.

Remember Ted Koppel he ran a story on how easy it would be for terrorists to let loose that white powder from a moving train. How it could kill a half a million people if they did that.I am no talking about Heroin either it would be crazy to waste heroin on something like that He did that story right after 9/11. Then that piece of shit ran it again.

What was the idea to give terrorists the idea to do it. Or he just wanted to scare New Yorkers out of taking the subway to work?

That's all he was doing? Poor people don't buy by the carton or by the pack if they had a chance to buy by the cig that is what they would do. They do that in poor countries. They are doing it in Greece.

I have no doubt there will be a time that they would also do it here every where.

So let me ask the question?

How many Minorities were on the jury?

I think it is worth getting into the hijacking cig truck business. But that would be federal who cares. You get someone to do it. They bring it to a safe house. Kill the guys that hijacked the truck. Hire someone to bring it to a third party to sell it all. Then when the guy come back with the money. Kill him and you made a lot of money and the trail ends with them.

In these days of mobile phones and cameras and such, police officers (from wherever) need to think about what they are doing a bit more. Every arrest and bit of conflict is going to be all over the internet in minutes, and after the Ferguson and this incident it is only going to get worse. Cops are going to be in a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation!!

Whatever else did or didn't happen in Ferguson, everyone acknowledges that Michael Brown attempted to take Officer Wilson's gun from him. That was a potentially life-threatening situation for Wilson.

Eric Garner posed no mortal threat to the four officers who confronted him. He wasn't armed and didn't reach for anyone's gun. The four officers could have restrained him and cuffed him without one of them applying a choke hold that was banned by NYPD regulations years ago.

^^ THIS!

That's right and the grand Jury doesn't find that they have to go to trial? That's crazy maybe their is something wrong with the grand jury system.

There are Board members who remember Dennis Miller from SNL. It was a while ago that he became a high profile conservative. He has a noon radio show and tours with Bill O'Reilly. However, on his show this date, he expressed significant reservations about police actions in this case. So did Shephard Smith on his Fox Network afternoon show.

When Miller expresses doubt about the propriety of police behavior, then you know that there's doubt aplenty.

Even bill O' Reilly said he was shocked about no indictment. He also said the officer should have loosened his grip on the guy. The guy was clearly subdued and he said he couldnt breath. The cop was wrong on so many levels. They just gave Sharpton a blank check.

Sounds like a plan. Time to live out my goodfellas fantasy

When I first moved to Brooklyn my neighbor Nick was a real street guy. We hit it off right away. He introduced to another guy Sebastian we called him Sonny. Another street guy.

Nick comes up with a plan to rob an Armoured car that made pick ups at Kings Plaza. They would go up the East 55 street ramp and stop where they made deliveries. It was an isolated area. Perfect place to rob them just before they got into the truck.

They wanted me to join them. I liked them both so I told them I would love to but no. They asked me why. I told them I would but I would never trust them I have not known them well enough. They pressed me so I told them that they would not want me for a partner. Then I told them why.

So I did not participate. Every time I pass kings plaza I see the armoured car making pickups. But now they park right on Ave U near the hot dog stand

It's 7:30, Richie. Meds time, buddy. Don't forget your meds .

I think this officer got caught up in the excitement and used poor judgment. For selling loose cigarettes, this man shouldn't have been thrown to the ground even if he did resist a little.
I don't see this as a racial thing. There was a black female police Sergeant overseeing this whole incident. I am sorry to see Obama throwing all police under the bus on these cases after he relied so heavily on the police unions to help get him elected. In theFerguso case I am completely on the side of the officer.

That's what has me upset. The cop clearly didn't have to choke the guy. But it wasn't murder. Involuntary manslaughter at best. But that's not the point. This piece of shit de Blasio threw the department under the bus here. And I don't even like most cops. But what's right is right. A Mayor is supposed to stand by his troops.

Now if they voted to indict this guy, that's an entirely different story. But they didn't. They voted no true bill in the most liberal big city in America. It couldn't have been an easy decision, but it should have ended there. But not with this Mayor. Or this President. Or this attorney general. That Al fucking Sharpton has all three of these assholes on speed dial speaks volumes.

I love these

Meds, or Richie's opium dreams?

So, we have Dennis Miller, O'Reilly, Shephard Smith, and Charles Krauthammer all pointing fingers at the police in this case. Now we add to that conservative chorus none other than Michael Savage. How the worm has turned!

I have no sympathy for Michael Brown or his family but this Eric Garner dude seemed like good people.

Pantaleo should pay for killing that man.

Wilson = self defence.
Pantaleo = thuggery hiding behind a badge.

Above I cited several high profile conservatives who have criticized the police for their actions prior to and at the time of Eric Garner's death. However, I neglected to cite Senator Rand Paul's statement which, in part, was that "I don't think it's justified what the police did ..."

It's probably been the first time since 9/11 that I've witnessed such a mix of persons with differing ideologies engaged in essentially the same line of criticism.

I agree. But let's hope the conservatives stand by their position on this. Unlike the Lefties who were waving the flag in the days following 9/11, yet have since turned their backs on this country. And that includes the mutt who's sitting in the White House right now (if he's not playing golf, that is).

both

Moe, Garner seeming like "good People" is a bit of a stretch, no?. I agree this was a tragic death but, supposedly the stores on that block had been complaing about Garner and others who were selling cigarrettes outside their stores. Have you read this:

11 Facts About the Eric Garner Case the Media Won't Tell You
Thursday, 04 Dec 2014 11:54 AM
By Jim Meyers



Get Link | Email Article | Comment | Contact | Print | A A



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Sources in the mainstream media expressed outrage after a grand jury declined to indict a New York City policeman in the death of Eric Garner, but there are 11 significant facts that many of them have chosen to overlook:

Vote Here: Does Racism Play a Role In How Cops Act On The Job? Vote In Urgent Poll

1. There is no doubt that Garner was resisting an arrest for illegally selling untaxed cigarettes. Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik put it succinctly: "You cannot resist arrest. If Eric Garner did not resist arrest, the outcome of this case would have been very different," he told Newsmax. "He wouldn't be dead today.

"Regardless of what the arrest was for, the officers don't have the ability to say, 'Well, this is a minor arrest, so we're just going to ignore you.'"

2. The video of the July 17 incident clearly shows Garner, an African-American, swatting away the arms of a white officer seeking to take him into custody, telling him: "Don't touch me!"

3. Garner, 43, had history of more than 30 arrests dating back to 1980, on charges including assault and grand larceny.

4. At the time of his death, Garner was out on bail after being charged with illegally selling cigarettes, driving without a license, marijuana possession and false impersonation.

5. The chokehold that Patrolman Daniel Pantaleo put on Garner was reported to have contributed to his death. But Garner, who was 6-foot-3 and weighed 350 pounds, suffered from a number of health problems, including heart disease, severe asthma, diabetes, obesity, and sleep apnea. Pantaleo's attorney and police union officials argued that Garner's poor health was the main cause of his death.

6. Garner did not die at the scene of the confrontation. He suffered cardiac arrest in the ambulance taking him to the hospital and was pronounced dead about an hour later.

7. Much has been made of the fact that the use of chokeholds by police is prohibited in New York City. But officers reportedly still use them. Between 2009 and mid-2014, the Civilian Complaint Review Board received 1,128 chokehold allegations.

Patrick Lynch, president of the New York City Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, said: "It was clear that the officer's intention was to do nothing more than take Mr. Garner into custody as instructed, and that he used the takedown technique that he learned in the academy when Mr. Garner refused."

8. The grand jury began hearing the case on Sept. 29 and did not reach a decision until Wednesday, so there is much testimony that was presented that has not been made public.

9. The 23-member grand jury included nine non-white jurors.

10. In order to find Officer Pantaleo criminally negligent, the grand jury would have had to determine that he knew there was a "substantial risk" that Garner would have died due to the takedown.

11. Less than a month after Garner's death, Ramsey Orta, who shot the much-viewed videotape of the encounter, was indicted on weapons charges. Police alleged that Orta had slipped a .25-caliber handgun into a teenage accomplice's waistband outside a New York hotel.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/eric-garner-chokehold-grand-jury-police/2014/12/04/id/611058/

beanshooter, it will be interesting to see If your "attack the victim" strategy will change anyones mind. it's on video, I can't see where he resisted arrest.

Binnie, I am not attacking the victim. I am offering this article to show that there there is more that just a video here. The fact that the grand jury met for over 2 months is puzzling to me. Obvoiuosly they didn't just watch the video. Race has nothing to do with this. I do think the cop used excessive force and that had Garner not resisted he may have still be alive today. Like I also said this was indeed tragic.
Maybe there is a longer version of the tape that has not been released. but this below points are of interest to me"

2. The video of the July 17 incident clearly shows Garner, an African-American, swatting away the arms of a white officer seeking to take him into custody, telling him: "Don't touch me!"

3. Garner, 43, had history of more than 30 arrests dating back to 1980, on charges including assault and grand larceny.
.
8. The grand jury began hearing the case on Sept. 29 and did not reach a decision until Wednesday, so there is much testimony that was presented that has not been made public.

tough sell bean, the whole world has seen that video. and perception is the deciding factor. too many cops taking down one guy for a small crime. and the video really shows no resistance.



to millions of people nothing counts but the video, everything else is meaningless, he cried "
I can't breathe" 11 TIMES. nobody is looking beyond the video.

it's all perception.

Except there is no victim in this case, there was a criminal who died because he resisted arrest while being a fat bastard. 350 pounds, jesus how does someone let themselves go that bad, he was a heart attack waiting to happen. Either way, with 30 arrests spanning over the last several decades, this guy was no great loss to society. And props to the grand jury for following suit of the ferguson grand jury and not giving into the ignorant mobs and handing down a justified no true bill.

Im not sure what video your watching but he is clearly belligerent with the cops and when they went to put the hand cuffs on him he clearly resisted.

dellacroce, do you belong to the police union?

Haha no im with the local 40 ironworkers

But seriously, as someone who has been arrested several times, and has a general disdain for law enforcement, the fact that im taking the cops side should speak volumes.

Is his weight not kind of beside the point?

Whatever about using an illegal, and dangerous, chokehold, was there really any need to keep his arms firmly locked against his throat and continue to choke him once he was incapacitated? And was there any need to force his head into the concrete? And was there any need to drive his knee into his head? And was there any need to leave the guy there and take over ten minutes to pursue any kind of medical attention for him?

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video...old-death-video

After 1:16 is it even conclusive that he is "swatting" their hands away when they are trying to handcuff him? The guy was agitated, he was mildly resistant but the key issue here is that the thug cop took it way too far after incapacitating him.

good boy moe! you put it down exactly right. im with you on this one. pee on the cops union. great post moe.

I never agree with Al Sharpton. The other day he was with other blacks so called leaders during a press conference.

A reporter asked why did the family have to call you?

He said when a police has a problem he can call their union, and he has a lot of people to help him.

When a poor black civilian gets in trouble he does not have anyone to help him. If he calls us we are going to help him.

It kind of made sense to me.

First of all no his weight is not besides the point, because A, it was a one of the causes that lead to his death and B, if he wasnt such a fucking grizzly bear it wouldnt have taken so much force to bring him down.

Now come on the cop had him in a head lock(note head lock, not choke hold) for 4 maybe 5 seconds, just long enough to subdue him. And when he was on the ground if he was still not complying then its pretty much standard to push down on the back of the head as that key pressure point.

As far as you saying "taking it to far after they incapacitate him", hes not considered incapacitated until hes in handcuffs. And if he wouldnt have resisted to the handcuffs in the first place, we wouldnt be having this conversation.

" if he wasnt such a fucking grizzly bear it wouldnt have taken so much force to bring him down."

Ever play football? One guy can take anyone down if you can get both of his feet off the ground. Only one place for him to go from there, and that is down on the ground.

Seriously? I thought his points were weak at best. But i see you guys minds are made up, i shouldn't try to confuse you guys with facts.

good boy dell! you put it down exactly right. im with you on this one. great post dell....LOL!

I thought your points were equally weak; and the fact that you have to mock the man's physical appearance is kind of strange, leading me to believe that you already have a certain bias when it comes to this issue.

Just curious, are you american moe?

I tend to agree. I think one's characterization of the protagonists in any scenario does betray a subjective viewpoint. I'm sure that the annals of the New York Police Department's are replete with incidents of alleged bad police behavior directed at people who were much smaller than Mr. Garner and who, otherwise, had no physical characteristics that were distinguishable from most of us.

However, one thing that this Board gives us the opportunity to do is to emote, to move our fingers across a keyboard to produce highly subjective and biased posts.

And we all do it. Every last one of us .

Delly's entitled to his opinion. The same as you and me, the same as Binnie and Moe.

well, im watching t,v, and here is Sharpton again, everytime I see this guy I want to throw my shoe at him. he's got ammo now.

everytime something likes this happens he comes in like a savior on a white horse. how do you shut this guy up? he's everywhere!!

As i'm making another bag of popcorn..... What i want to know is, why didn't they taser him first, instead of going in hands on?

N.J., that's a good question!! good thinking.

Well that's ironic.

We can't separate the Al Sharptons of the world from these type of events. But it's important to not be distracted by their presence and language.

This family is not welcoming Sharton:

"The family of police shooting victim Akai Gurley had a message on Friday for the Rev. Al Sharpton: Keep your “circus” away from his funeral!
The blowhard opportunist muscled his way into the arrangements — and even put out press releases promising he would deliver the eulogy — without ever consulting the family or offering to foot the bill.
But Gurley’s relatives told Sharpton to stay away, rather than turn the somber ceremonies into a spectacle."
http://nypost.com/2014/12/05/cop-shoot-victims-family-stay-away-sharpton/

That's refreshing, Beanie.

I liken this to Italian Americans years ago. The Black community will eventually get tired of the Sharptons and Jacksons of this world in much the same way that Italian Americans in the old urban strongholds got tired of being extorted by the mob.

Preying on your own kind: A tradition as old as this country.

Well said PB. I give this family a lot of credit for standing up and exposing that scumbag rat's offer!

Very True, certainly without sharpton the lawsuit should payout a much greater settlement as well.

DP

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...ell-phones.html

Says it all.

Good catch there, Moe. Looks like there are a few people whose hearts aren't really in it. Now some of these protesters are sincere. But it's obvious that a good many of them (read: moneyed, young and White) are there to be trendy. These are the same nitwits who protested the one percent at Zuccotti Park three years ago, and then walked home to their $10,000 a month SoHo apartments. That Daddy was paying for.

That is fucking hilarious.

the one guy even has the exact same beard you would expect someone like him to have, hahahaha

This is strange when I was a kid playing American football if someone lost his helmet. I would go out of my way to hit him with my helmet.

When I saw the white older guy laying on the floor with the young protesters obviously a leader an anarchist. I would love to run him over with my car more then once.

There's a sizeable portion of hipsters in my generation who think they're doing something heroic by laying down and playing dead. As if that makes a difference and as the article points out most of these douches are checking facebook and twitter while they're at it.

One of the comments on the page sums it up best

"What a bunch of idiots...'look at me I'm protesting! I'm protesting!'"

If Ferguson had been the only incident regarding this issue of police behavior along with white and black relations we might see less of this bullshit. It wouldn't have a wide berth or platform because Mike Brown was an asshole who messed with a cop and paid the price for it.

But the Staten Island was clear cut. He should've been charged with something. It was a breach of NYPD policy and excessive. The fact that nothing was brought against the cop is pretty baffling. And what's more it's going to give these wingnuts lying down in the street more ammo. They'll use this one incident to their advantage for personal gain or for an ideological agenda driven by emotions and not reason.

yup. it gave those liberals a cause, they got an enemy now.
I think if they would have brought a charge against the cop, any charge, it may have defused the situation a little.

but, I guess they aren't that smart. or don't care about public opinion.

Except here in America we don't charge and convict people for public relations and to appease the mobs. That goes against every facet of the American justice system. Let justice be done though the heavens may fall.

And furthermore, they TRIED to charge him. And the grand jury FAILED to deliver an indictment. So "not being smart," or "caring about public opinion" doesn't weigh in here. Because again, they TRIED to charge him.

My two cents. The scales of Justice are depicted as "blind" or as blindfolded for a reason. Everyone on each side is looking at the colors of the actors involved and making judgements partially based on that. We need to just look at the facts.

The facts are that the guy was resisting arrest initially.

The facts are also that a banned choke hold was used to subdue him, a choke hold the officer had to know was potentially lethal. The same type of choke hold resulted in the death of another civilian, one Anthony Baez.

The facts are that while the man went through convulsions, he apparently was ignored.

So that is a homicide followed by negligence of his asthmatic medical condition.....negligent homicide. If you want to call it reckless manslaughter, go right ahead. It's fine by me.

In Ferguson, let's forget color for a moment.

The facts are that the kid (Brown) was trying to bully and intimidate people around him. The facts are that he and his friend were walking in the center of the street, which is what attracted the cop's attention in the first place. The facts are that he and his friend were commanded to get out of the street and get onto the sidewalk immediately. They refused. The cop lost his temper.

The facts are that there was some sort of struggle at the window of the police car most likely initiated by the police officer. I do not believe Wilson started punching Brown. He must have grabbed for him like the affidavits attested.

The facts are that Brown most likely struggled to get away. Did he throw a punch at the officer as was claimed? We don't know. All we know for absolute certainty was that Officer Wilson did not suffer any noticeable injuries to his face after the fact, much less a collapsed optical orbit as some claimed.

The facts are that there was gunpowder residue on the young man which indicates that the gun was drawn and went off at the window of the car.

The facts are that Brown was then killed and finished off a full 150 feet from the police cruiser. This implies that after whatever happened at the window of the police cruiser, Brown fled and for whatever reason stopped fleeing while he was being shot at.

Witnesses say that when he was hit by the first bullets, he stopped to surrender, and was then summarily executed.

The facts are that when Brown dropped, his body was facing Wilson and the police cruiser. Officer Wilson says Brown turned to charge him like a bull. That is extremely unlikely. If it is not true, then he fired the last fatal shots into a man that was in fact already wounded and incapable of further aggression.

The people who feel Brown was served justice are actually saying that if you for whatever reason physically fight an officer of the law with your bare hands, you deserve to be executed by gun and not arrested for your crime.

They are saying that because Brown possibly punched a cop through the window of his cruiser in the heat of the moment of a confusing altercation, and then ran, that the cop was right to then draw his gun and attempt to kill the fleeing suspect.

Since when does a cop have the right to kill someone fleeing?

The moment Brown turned away from Wilson and ran, ending the altercation at the police cruiser, Wilson's lawful claim that the killing was self defense ended right there.

Sorry, if you are a cop, you don't have the "right" to get revenge on someone who punched you by shooting them dead.

I don't like posting in these threads. They garner a lot of emotion. No pun. What scares me is the militarization of our police force. They used to walk the beat. Got to know the community. We got away from that. Now they hop out and stop n frisk and then wonder why there is a no snitching campaign. There is no trust. Deep down I have to believe there is good ppl on both sides who want the same thing. Peace in their community.


I have two young boys. And my wife and I aren't police lovers ourselves but we will teach them to respect the badge and do what they tell you. Always. Right or wrong.

Couple kids I grew up with are. cops now and they're on steroids and some of the biggest assholes you'll ever meet. Fuckem.

No that's not what witnesses said. The witnesses(that werent lying)said that brown was charging the officer when the first round of shots were fired, then while Brown stopped running no shots were fired. Then when Brown resumed to run at Wilson, that's when the final shots were fired.

"Since when does a cop have the right to kill someone fleeing?

The moment Brown turned away from Wilson and ran, ending the altercation at the police cruiser, Wilson's lawful claim that the killing was self defense ended right there. "

Also not true. When Brown turned around and started to run at Wilson hes obviously no longer fleeing.

I agree cheech. Fuck em is pretty much my attitude to. But as PB says, what's right is right. And I'm so sick of the Blacks bitching and whining about some fictional police bogeyman who wakes up and goes out hunting for "innocent" blacks.

You of all people know that I don't even like most cops. But sometimes you act like you're 80 instead of 30. And being an "old soul" doesn't hold any water here. It's true that when I was your age the cops didn't act like this, but neither did the criminals. These neighborhoods had lower crime rates when they were Italian, Irish and Jewish, even though they were just as poor. But hey, if you want Hamden to turn into Bridgeport, then God bless.


That's all I'm talking about. If they indicted this cop, that would be one thing. But being that they didn't the Mayor has a duty to stand by his troops. I'm angrier at de Blasio for throwing one of his own under the bus than anything else.

But I don't care anymore. Let the city revert back to the cesspool it was under Dinkins. Then maybe the lily white hipsters will all go back to the midwest where they fucking belong. These are the idiots who are laying down and playing dead in the street right now anyway.

Theres an article in todays Daily News saying that the BGF (Black Guerilla Family) might be thinking about declaring open season on NYC cops due to the non indictment in the Garner case. Hopefully it's bad intel.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/excl...ticle-1.2036616

edit Sorry i just saw that Scorsese already posted this in the oc section

Well, this is what I mean. Does a poor decision by a grand jury mean we should have to live in fear of a bunch of thugs?

Hopefully is right. But the Darren Wilson's are happy. They get to either stay on their jobs, or leave, and then they let the city (taxpayers) pay out the multimillion dollar wrongful death judgements while their fellow cops are shot at in retribution. That's screwed up because I have actually met some very nice guys that were cops.

Sounds like the same line of BS about the bloods declaring war on the cops in Newark a few months ago. And I pretty much expect the same thing to happen, nothing.

Well I never heard of the BGF if they are real.

If they are going after cops they should just do it, and stop talking about it. That news won't make cops even more trigger happy then they already are right? What, did they run out of bullets?

Tell them to get a cop named Vitaly, and do us all a favor. I promised my daughter I would not give him a drive by if others want to do it be my guest.Happy hunting.

Maybe those are agents provocateur making the threats.

The police are known to operate using them.

Alfa dont take this the wrong way. But you remind me of a certain poster on another forum....you wouldnt happen to be a halfa fag would you?

What were you doing posting on a forum like that?

Haha thats funny. No its another OC forum, you just seem like some1 who posts over there.

well,the feds are coming in both cases,[ ferguson, staten island ] be interesting to see what conclusions they draw from their investigations.

The article i read kind of implied it was shaky info. Why kill a cop when they can keep looting.

You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little fucked up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to fuckin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?

No, no, I don't know, you said it. How do I know? You said I'm funny. How the fuck am I funny, what the fuck is so funny about me? Tell me, tell me what's funny.

One thing's for sure. There is a deep discord between the public and the police right now. That affects good cops who do their jobs and people who do their communities good service. In other words a recipe for more Ferguson's.

John Kasich, the Republican governor from Ohio has some good ideas on this subject to repair this bad feeling that's going around in the country right now

When I see what's happening now I thing everyone has taken this train.

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCxIPDErjT8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Nothing for Ferguson cause Wilson was justified in protecting himself when Brown went for the officers sidearm. A lot of people seem to forget that. As for this Staten Island, I am shocked, cause it is right there on video. Once down and restrained, the cop should have let go right away. All this for some loose cigs.

Giacomo, if I didn't like your posts to begin with, I wouldn't challenge your assertions here.

If Officer Wilson is in his car, sitting down, and his firearm is holstered on his right side, how does a person on his left side window standing up outside of his vehicle reach into the car for his undrawn weapon?

Because Wilson opened the door of his vehicle and Brown apparently shoved him back in it and a scuffle ensued. That's how. You have been following this case right?

rockstar, the grand jury was presented with evidence from officer wilsons gun right? like fingerprints, or dna. proving that brown went for the cops gun.

Derrick Rose wore this shirt during warm ups on Saturday night before da Bulls game.

According to this article, Wilson's gun was never tested for fingerprints...

Gun Not Tested for Fingerprints

If the gun was never tested for fingerprints, how do you prove that Brown went for the gun and wrestled the officer for it?

The article also states that no written notes were taken after the killing by other interviewing officers who later claimed that Wilson never contradicted himself between his first story and the final version of his alibi. So everything is covered up and it is his word against Brown's.

Because no notes were taken, Wilson was basically given time to get his story straight and have it jibe with whatever forensic evidence would come out later.

alpha.. forget the fingerprints, dna would be even better.
im sure the grand jury was presented with dna evidence that shows Michael browns dna on wilsons gun.... that's concrete evidence so they most assuredly had that.

Courtesy of a friend of mine from Philly. Short and to the point.

I looked it up Binnie. They are not sure where the DNA came from. It could have come from blood spatter. The evidence is inconclusive...

Brown DNA on Wilson's Gun

Thats great.

alpha.... but browns thumb had a injury on it and also powder indicating that his thumb was 6 to 9 in away from Wilson's pistol. ive never heard that before, but, that's the evidence that the grand jury heard, and, that headline in your post said
that the physical evidence supported the officer.

You're looking for something that isn't there. Forensic evidence shows there was clearly a struggle inside Wilson's vehicle

yes, ive just read where that is correct. alpha posted a link
that confirms this.

Gun residue only means that the kid was shot at close range. Blood spatter could account for the DNA on the gun.

When you flush a toilet with the lid up, water is sprayed several feet in all directions through a process called aerosolization. Wilson's gun could have been contaminated with Brown's DNA via aerosolization of Brown's blood as a result of Brown being shot at close range.

Let's put it like this. If I was looking for conclusive proof that Brown went for the cop's gun, I would be looking for something that possibly isn't there with what we presently know. But it is an absolute that it is impossible to prove a lie.

Inconclusive. His hand was near the gun is all it means. His whole body was near the officer's gun. As a matter of fact, his whole body was much closer to the officer than 6 to 9 inches because the two of them came into contact with one another. So the hand being 6 to 9 inches from the gun is impressive. It shows that even though the two of them struggled and touched each other in some way, Brown may in fact have never touched the officer's gun. It's clear that when the officer pulled out and started shooting, Brown turned and ran.

No fingerprints on the gun. No sweat or bodily fluids on the gun. Aren't forensic scientists able to determine things like that?

Also, the title of the article doesn't concern me. I pulled up the article to shine light on a specific fact we were debating, the DNA on the gun. I don't claim to know everything that happened that day so I have no interest in censoring the truth by picking articles based on whether their title agrees with my viewpoint.

well said alpha, well said.

As for Staten Island, I can understand why people would be upset. But Ferguson is murky and you can't just say one or the other. I personally believe Darren Wilson was justified in his use of force. When someone inflicts bodily harm or even attempts to do physical harm (even taking the gun which jammed as a result of Brown's grabbing it), the police get a wide berth.

Because there was a video and a clear showing of what happened, for the life of me I can't figure out why they indict. I'm hoping we see the records made public so we can see what happened with the grand jury that made them say no indictment

My wife just informed me that Columbia University Law school has brought in grief counceler's to deal with their law students confusion over the grand jury not inditing in the Staten Island case. They are even letting them put off taking their final examinations.

Columbia university the leader in creating communists like my daughter here in the United States.

The NY Post headlines captures it best...... POOR BABIES!

Here is the article footread in todays NY papers

"They’re a long way from being hard-nosed litigators.
A group of Columbia University law students demanded the school postpone their finals because of their “trauma” over the Eric Garner and Michael Brown grand jury decisions.
And the bleeding-heart higher-ups bought it.
In an email to the entire school, Interim Dean Robert Scott said the decisions “have shaken the faith of some in the integrity of the grand-jury system and in the law more generally.”
Scott said “students who feel that their performance on examinations will be sufficiently impaired due to the effects of these recent events” could apply to have their tests rescheduled."

http://nypost.com/2014/12/08/columbia-law-postpones-finals-over-grand-jury-trauma/

Jesus Christ. What a joke. Where was their grief after 9/11? And where was the grief at Columbia when they gave a platform to that scumbag Mahmoud Ahmadinejad back in 2007?

These kids are in for a rude awakening. But it's not even their fault. The faculty and the tenured professors, and just about everyone else working in academia at the university level, are so fucking detached and sheltered from the real world, that it's not even worth discussing. And when you have access to 18 year old minds you can turn these kids into whatever you want. They're doomed.

If I knew what I know now then, I would not have sent my daughter to Columbia.

I constantly get mail from them asking me to donate money to the school.

It's not your fault. Columbia has always been a liberal campus, even by university standards. But since 9/11 they've gone completely off the rails.

I can't believe what going on at Columbia university, it's disturbing, can't they deal with real life? ive always thought that the univ of calif at Berkley was the most liberal institution in the country, when you pass Berkley for being liberal, you're no longer Columbia, but, the peoples republic of new York.

Yeah, Berkeley's just Columbia in a better neighborhood with better weather. Same sickening ideology, though.

Pb check pm please.

Yes I was following the shuffle inside the car for Ferguson. This Staten Island is caught on tape and still nothing. Berkeley is not liberal anymore, it is fascism.

That's about right.

The Columbia thing was fuckin bogus but they can't be any worse than the other pinko lefty schools like Harvard and Yale. Funny how those schools used to stand for a good, solid education and a step up in life now all it is, is liberal indoctrination, affirmative action, and a system that doesn't allow for any other point of view except their own.

I hate their educated attitudes, " we are smarter than you. we know what's good for you" all those young yuppies need a dose of reality.

We all know the ticket to success is being a well rounded and educated individual. There are many on this board who have busted their asses to achieve great things because of it.

The problem begins when you believe because you got that law degree from Harvard it's a license to look down on everyone else, including those who may not have a lick of college experience but can still do well for themselves in other fields. It becomes a bigger problem when ideology mixes with that snobbery. Because then its no longer about education, its about indoctrination and arrogance.

exactly. great post. expresses my feelings to a t.

Typical liberal thinking - completely removed from reality. Between them getting their "education" from colleges like Columbia and their "news" from liberal hacks like Jon Stewart, what hope is there for the rising generation?