Why does Spike Lee center his ignorance towards "White Italians" so he says Italian people are a culture not necessarilly white but a culture. What has an Italian ever done to him to be so ignorant?
1. As Silvio would say, "this is Anti-Italian Discrimination" 2. He has a history of ignorance towards anyone not of African American descent and thinks the world is owed to him by anyone that isn't his race. It disgusts me.
Besides His name is "Spike Lee", (He wasn't born with that name trust me, it was Shelton or some shit.) That's pretty much the dumbest name you can come up with rivaling "Chanel West Coast".
Especially in the movies Do The Right Thing and Jungle Fever he was trying to put out the message that Italian people were stupid and shit, But especially in the movie Do The Right Thing he put all his ignorance towards Italians.
I remember he tried calling out Clint Eastwood for his two movies "Letters to Iwo Jima" and the other one (I can't recall right now), saying they had no black troops in it.
The guys starts reverse racism bull crap to get his name out there and stir the pot.
spike lee and quinton tarrantino put truths into their movies
And yet Spike had a problem with Tarantino directing "Django Unchained." Didn't he?
And I like Spike Lee, Cook. But you're so fucking ignorant that I can't help but play Devil's Advocate.
So if it's okay for Spike Lee to make films depicting life in an Italian American neighborhood, why does Spike always seem to have a problem with White directors making films about urban Black life? He shouldn't be able to have it both ways.
And again, I like Spike. But his biggest problem is that he's an "artsy" director. And when you're that kind of filmmaker, you take pride in never "selling out." But you never make the money that mainstream directors make, either. And I think Spike is starting to resent that in his middle age.
So is it right that Tyler Perry has a net worth that's ten times what Spike's is? In theory, probably not. But in practice, that's the way of the world. Money talks and bullshit walks. If you want the money, then put it above your art. Sell out, or shut the fuck up about it.
Not aware of any comments he made about Italians but without looking it up, you can tell a lot about how when and where some celebs grew up if you follow their work.
A PAL coach of mine (Mr. "Turle dove" in Italian)once said to me that people in certain cities depending on their age/ethnicity were on either end of classic American immigration story. One ethnicity has an enclave of their own...new one comes in...gets picked on, beat up bullied....etc...until the old group moves out and the new group has the numbers....cycle continues.
Mr. T disliked Irish people....partly because he caught all types of hell growing up from Irish people.
He said that Hollywood's obsession with mafia and their limited depictions of Italians was based on certain groups resenting Italians for the same reasons.
Spike's family was first Black family in an Italian neighborhood in Brooklyn. You can read certain residual feelings towards Italians in some of his work.
Howard Stern, the same way. I was a teen and thought Stern was one of the FUNNIEST guys EVER....then at some point..he launched bitter attacks against Black people on his radio show. Haven't listened to him since. But if you look up his story.....his family was one of the LAST white families in Roosevelt, Long Island as Black families moved in. They refused to sell.
Spike, in a subtle manner...and Stern in an open manner......are holding on to long held resentment towards certain groups of people
"He said that Hollywood's obsession with mafia and their limited depictions of Italians was based on certain groups resenting Italians for the same reasons. "
Certain groups of people that control Hollywood...got it. I didn't realize that they had beef with each other. Why isn't there more Nazi movies then?
I like Spike Lee but his constant ramblings on white people bother me. I can understand perhaps some of his resentment but more than once he's been a total hypocrite.
The Iwo Jima thing was just one example. Clint Eastwood isn't racist for trying to keep the film historically accurate. Black soldiers simply did not fight with white soldiers in WW2. Doesn't make it right, but you can't just pretend it didn't happen and there weren't any blacks putting that flag up in Iwo Jima. That time Spike needed to shut the fuck up
"He said that Hollywood's obsession with mafia and their limited depictions of Italians was based on certain groups resenting Italians for the same reasons. "
Certain groups of people that control Hollywood...got it. I didn't realize that they had beef with each other. Why isn't there more Nazi movies then?
"Control Hollywood"?
You didn't read that. That was Mr. Turtle-dove's read as an American of Italian background.
There are tons of Americans films with Nazi (and Arab) villains though, just for the record. The Pianist and Inglorious Basterds are some of the more recent award winning ones.George Clooney and Matt Damon are in one that either opens soon or has just opened.
in fact.....bookmark this thread....in any given year...there is a big studio film with Nazis as villains. check this thread next year.
If you made a few films..I think some of the resentment you expressed towards Americans of Indian and East Asian background would eventually surface.
Spike Lee is a joke now and has never actually been that special of a director in the first place imo, at least not in the way he thinks he is. Do the Right Thing and 25TH Hour are brilliant other than that, all of his other films including Malcolm X are either average or plain bad, usually the latter imo. Still got no idea why the guy thinks he's a MLK type figure, when he's just as racist as his supposed enemies. at cookcounty you are the most amazing troll i've ever witnessed.
spike lee and quinton tarrantino put truths into their movies
everybody knows why people hate spike lee and it ain't because he's ignorant
It's of course because he's black!!! We all know that according to the gospel of cookcounty, blacks should be treated equally unless white people want to criticize their actions, then that's straight up Racism, is that about right cook? As i understand it Obama is of course the first President to ever be criticized and if it was a white Democrat this damn racist criticism wouldn't happen? Of course Lees clear Racism towards non-blacks isn't revelant either cook?
"It's of course because he's black!!! We all know that according to the gospel of cookcounty, blacks should be treated equally unless white people want to criticize their actions, then that's straight up Racism, is that about right cook? As i understand it Obama is of course the first President to ever be criticized and if it was a white Democrat this damn racist criticism wouldn't happen? Of course Lees clear Racism towards non-blacks isn't revelant either cook?"
Camarel, cookcounty is pissed. He tells me that there are only 600 white people who are allowed to talk to him like that and they are all made guys in the Chicago Outfit.
most of the times entertainers, athletes, etc. should be seen and not heard
I actually agree with this. In the past (and most recently with that douchebag Alec Baldwin), I've been quick to point out that celebs should just keep their mouths shut. ESPECIALLY about politics and social issues. And if the celebrity happens to be White (like Baldwin), or Black (like Lee), then so be it.
I've never had a problem with Spike Lee in the past. But he doesn't get a pass when being a hypocrite. If he can make films about Italian Americans, then he should keep quiet about White filmmakers making movies about Black people (he was very critical of Tarantino making "Django Unchained"). There are limitations, of course. If a White director makes a blatantly racist film, then he should be called on it.
Spike didn't object to QT making Django because he's White or non Black. He specifically objected to the original script of the film which trivialized slavery and was a blaxploitation/sexploitation/Italian western.
QT himself was convinced to tone down some of the sensational and exploitative elements of the original script...and altered it.
there is a Q&A with Django producer Reginald Hudlin where the original script comes up.
QT, like Howard Stern has visible contempt for Black people...as the scripts of his films are peppered with racial slurs. If you look up his story....he was one of the last white kids in his neighborhood as it became more Black. so.......certain that he has pent up feelings that come out in his scripts.
Spike took objection to QT with his history and tendencies , and his original script....getting the greenlight to do the film.......not just because a white person was doing the film. ============ I found it interesting though, that racial slurs towards Blacks predictably (and historically accurately) show up a lot in Django, but in QT's film set in NAZI occupied France...none of the German slurs towards jews appear in script ....outside of the opening scene....and even though several characters were Nazis in WW2 Europe.
most of the times entertainers, athletes, etc. should be seen and not heard
@camarel
are there even any fucking black people in scotland for you to be a bigot
it ain't the brothers fault that your kilt wasn't dry cleaned properly
Typical cookcounty, he can't read what was said so he says something completely unrelated in randomly spaced out sentences. If it was me coming off with a similar black stereotype you'd be claiming white devil.
Spike didn't object to QT making Django because he's White or non Black. He specifically objected to the original script of the film which trivialized slavery and was a blaxploitation/sexploitation/Italian western.
QT himself was convinced to tone down some of the sensational and exploitative elements of the original script...and altered it.
there is a Q&A with Django producer Reginald Hudlin where the original script comes up.
QT, like Howard Stern has visible contempt for Black people...as the scripts of his films are peppered with racial slurs. If you look up his story....he was one of the last white kids in his neighborhood as it became more Black. so.......certain that he has pent up feelings that come out in his scripts.
Spike took objection to QT with his history and tendencies , and his original script....getting the greenlight to do the film.......not just because a white person was doing the film. ============ I found it interesting though, that racial slurs towards Blacks predictably (and historically accurately) show up a lot in Django, but in QT's film set in NAZI occupied France...none of the German slurs towards jews appear in script ....outside of the opening scene....and even though several characters were Nazis in WW2 Europe.
"things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmm"
Interesting article, Gets. And for the record, I completely understand some of Spike's reservations about the content in the early draft of that film (I should also note that I still haven't seen "Django"). And like I said earlier, I never had too much of a problem with Spike.
All I'm saying is, he's being hypocritical because he feels it's okay for him to depict Italian Americans in a bad light, yet when White filmmakers do the same with the Black community he's very outspoken about it. So I'm not at all saying that he shouldn't voice his opinion about Black stereotypes. But he shouldn't be propagating Italian American stereotypes either. It's a two way street.
"Do the Right Thing" is a classic. "Jungle Fever" was a swing and a miss in my opinion. But by "Summer of Sam," his depiction of Italian Americans was so cartoonish that one can't help but call him on his hypocrisy.
I saw Summer of Sam recently and I have to agree. Every stereotype of Italian Americans, including the mafia was so overblown you couldn't help but wonder what Spike was on when he made it. I mean he couldn'tve gotten someone like Pacino or Pesci to advise him?
I agree with your point. How Spike gets away with it(depicting American Italians in a bad light consistently) is sort of a film trick.
In my opinion, there "acceptable" ethnic groups or types that can be broadly stereotyped in American films and media with no recourse.....rural poor White southerners and working class Northeast Italian Americans are two of those groups.
Jokes, slurs,caricatures of these groups are commonplace and until/unless any organization fights to change it...they will remain embedded in pop culture.
Spike knows this, so he uses working class Italian American characters as representatives of whatever "ism" he's trying to discuss in his films.
Mainstream audience doesn't identify with this working class ethnic White so Spike's storyline is more easily received and digested than if the same character were a middle class wasp.
Spike also gets away with it by using a hollywood cliche..."All of the members of a certain group are bad EXCEPT this one...so my film isn't racist" There are characters in Spike's films that exist for this reason only. The younger brother, in Do The Right Thing, for example.
The WW2 film that Spike made "Miracle at St. Anna"was set in Italy...and despite what I expected.....the Italian characters weren't stereotypes or just inserted to highlight racism. Film was ruined by bad acting by the leads and uneven directing but it showed Italians as human beings and not "types".The villagers in the film were so friendly with the Black soldiers that I saw the film as an olive branch by Spike to American Italians....or perhaps a commentary about how American color based racism is learned by immigrants when they arrive here.
At any rate, pizza you are right to call out Spike on this issue. I haven't seen Summer of Sam, but in the Spike films I've seen...he makes concerted effort to craft Italian American characters a certain way.
Until Americans of Italian background challenge Spike for this glaring contradiction..nothing will change. Spike sees that very little resistance is put up against the mainstream culture stereotyping members of this group, so he does it too. He's wrong and a hypocrite.
But remember, the negative fictional depictions of Blacks in American media didn't go away because the media decision makers just decided to stop writing them. People and organizations had to call them out and protest against them.
"White" people aren't going to protest or call Spike out because he doesn't go after "white" people so hard in his films but specifically Italian Americans.
============= I'm pretty sure that in Spike's new york stories and films that some characters were written as other white ethnic groups but that pressure from the studios made him change them to Italian. Would be unacceptable for "jewish" characters to be so broadly stereotyped but studio will greenlight and finance Spike's films throwing Italian Americans under the bus.
I thought Summer of Sam was an outstanding movie. The scene with Berkowitz, looking in wonder, being driven through the raucous mob with the juxtaposition of the smaller group of Leguizamo's friends, blinded by fear, ignorance and confusion that grew throughout movie, ferociously hunting down Richie, all while the Who's "Won't Get Fooled Again" blared in the background, was cinematic brilliance.
I don't think he was ridiculing Italians, but he used those characters and others (including himself as the incompetent black news reporter and the black looters) in a surrealistic way to heighten the madness and insanity of that summer in New York. While Richie's buddies were a bunch of bigoted dolts, who happened to be Italian, Richie, an Italian, was a Christ figure.
I can see that if you're Italian, you might be more sensitive to the portrayal, but of the movies I've seen of his that include Do the Right Thing and Jungle Fever, I never interpreted the movies as a slap at Italians, but I saw them as representing something beyond ethnicity. His movies, at least the three I remember seeing, are evocative and play a little with reality in a creative way.
great description ! the job of the DIRECTER is to hold a mirror in front of society .you know well as i do a SOME italians have been slow on race relations in america .new york was a powder keg in the 60 and 70's black new yorker's were constantly being harrassed.
I can see that if you're Italian, you might be more sensitive to the portrayal
That's just it, Klyd. You have to ask yourself, if it were an Irish American stereotype being depicted, would it bother you then? And if not, hey, more power to you. You have a thicker skin than I do.
I think I'm a little more sensitive to "Summer of Sam" because a lot of it was filmed right in Throggs Neck (there's actually a shot of our old pool and beach club off Clarence Avenue). And it's ironic, but I have to note that, regardless of some of the high profile Italian mob guys who have lived here, Throggs Neck has always been an Irish neighborhood (I'd have to say Irish, then Italian, then German).
Anyway, you know me well, Klyd. You're my pal. I'm just asking you to put the shoe on the other foot. If the depiction was of an Irish American beat cop, drunk and on the take, a bottle of Jameson's in one hand and a bottle of ketchup in the other, wouldn't it bother you just a little bit?
And for the record, I think Spike is a great fimmaker and a decent man. I just think that he might unknowingly have some anti-Italian bias in him. And contrary to popular opinion, I don't think a litle bias necessarily makes someone a racist. It's what you do with that bias.
PB and Kly, I haven't seen any of the movies ya'll reference. Thus, I don't know how Italians were portrayed in them. If they were portrayed in a negative way, aren't there Italians whose behaviors are negative. Was that the point of the portrayal, or was the portrayal's intention insidious?
PB and Kly, I haven't seen any of the movies ya'll reference. Thus, I don't know how Italians were portrayed in them. If they were portrayed in a negative way, aren't there Italians whose behaviors are negative. Was that the point of the portrayal, or was the portrayal's intention insidious?
I think that's where Klyd and I differ in opinion, Oli. I think it was a little more insidious that he does.
Anyway, you know me well, Klyd. You're my pal. I'm just asking you to put the shoe on the other foot. If the depiction was of an Irish American beat cop, drunk and on the take, a bottle of Jameson's in one hand and a bottle of ketchup in the other, wouldn't it bother you just a little bit?
I'd be confused by the bottle of ketchup. I get the whiskey-gulping couch, but I think I'm missing something about my heritage about the ketchup.
I think it comes down to whether the depiction is gratuitous. Does it advance the theme, art, entertainment of the movie. For instance, I think a far more nefarious image of Italians is portrayed in mobster films, but films like The Godfather, Goodfellas, etc. employ them necessarily. A lot of Italians, including my late father-in-law disliked these movies because of it.
But I realize that one of the fascinating things about movies (and I admit I don't often watch movies) and life is that we all look at them from a different point of reference, and therefore we don't always see the same thing.
When my daughter was about 8 or 9 we watched Rear Window, and through it all her eyes were like saucers. After the thrilling ending, she excitedly said that was a really good movie. I asked her her favorite scene, and still excited, she answered, "When they lifted the puppy in the basket." I wish I could still view life and movies from that frame of mind.
Now, pizzaboy, fill me in about the ketchup reference. St. Patty's Day is coming up and I have to be ready.
Now, pizzaboy, fill me in about the ketchup reference. St. Patty's Day is coming up and I have to be ready.
Just a personal observation, Counselor. But it just goes to show, that's how stereotypes get started. So shame on me .
But for the record, here's where it comes from: I spend A LOT of time in the Irish pubs in my neighborhood (like I said, there are loads of Irish Americans in Throggs Neck). And I've just made the casual observation that some of my Irish friends will order a thirty dollar steak, insist that it's well done, and then pour ketchup all over it . Why bother?
But now that I think about it, it's FAR more likely that they do it because they are, much like me, blue collar shmendricks from the Bronx, and that it has nothing to do with the fact that their grandparents were from County Cork.
Oh, and speaking of Celtic Counties and Bronx Irish bars: Whenever I walk into my favorite watering hole, the bartender, a feisty Irishman, yells out "Here comes County Kill-Guinea."
And THAT doesn't bother me at all. It's all about the context and how familiar you are with the people you're interacting with .
Now, pizzaboy, fill me in about the ketchup reference. St. Patty's Day is coming up and I have to be ready.
Just a personal observation, Counselor. But it just goes to show, that's how stereotypes get started. So shame on me .
But for the record, here's where it comes from: I spend A LOT of time in the Irish pubs in my neighborhood (like I said, there are loads of Irish Americans in Throggs Neck). And I've just made the casual observation that some of my Irish friends will order a thirty dollar steak, insist that it's well done, and then pour ketchup all over it . Why bother?
But now that I think about it, it's FAR more likely that they do it because they are, much like me, blue collar shmendricks from the Bronx, and that it has nothing to do with the fact that their grandparents were from County Cork.
Oh, and speaking of Celtic Counties and Bronx Irish bars: Whenever I walk into my favorite watering hole, the bartender, a feisty Irishman, yells out "Here comes County Kill-Guinea."
And THAT doesn't bother me at all. It's all about the context and how familiar you are with the people you're interacting with .
Gotcha. I just wanted to be sure that for years jokes weren't going over my head. I've seen the ketchup and steak combo myself.
I remember you telling me about County Kill-Guinea before, and I forgot to use the line. The vice-president of our local Ancient Order of Hibernians is named D'Amico, and he would get a kick out of it. His mom was part-Irish.
Be well, buddy and I look forward to duking it out with you during the baseball season when we can stare together at how far the Nationals and Braves are above us.
I think a far more nefarious image of Italians is portrayed in mobster films.
As an outsider, I'd have to agree with you on this point.
Doesn't absolve Spike at all.
I read an article about Spike and Italians..and I sent an email to one of the organizations quoted in the piece. I posed some of the questions to him that I've posed in this thread.
I got a good response. Here are two sites that serve to educate people about Italian history and to combat media stereotypes about Italian Americans.
In so many words, the gist of what he told me was that there are media watchdog groups that speak out against Italian stereotypes, but media outlets are generally not going to cover the stories targeting powerful interests .Spike is somewhat of a polarizing media figure so stories involving him are approved by editors at media outlets.
What's interesting was that in my email, I mentioned a big studio children's CARTOON that had Mafia "joke" in it and I questioned whether the organization had spoken out against that...he directed me to details of them speaking out against that ...but again...powerful interests ....fewer stories about them calling out Spielberg and "Shark Tale".
I get the whiskey-gulping couch, but I think I'm missing something about my heritage about the ketchup.
.
. Why bother?