Is Islam taking over Europe?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4385024,00.html

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/bruce-bawer/islamization-of-europe-the-numbers-dont-lie/

As everyone might or might not know, Muslims have immigrated heavily to Europe over the past two decades. They're having a lot more kids than the natives. In some countries, like Belgium, 50 percent of all new borns are foreign born.

My question, and this is purely for debate, is this a good thing? Many sections of France are under sharia law, ancient Islamic law, and are considered places where doctors, policemen, and firefighters don't go. Remember the English soldier decapitated? It was Muslim extremists. Or the London train bombing? Same deal. Many are refuse to integrate into European society. Free speech has been under attack from Muslims who feel offended when Danish cartoons insult the prophet Muhammad.

Now I know I've painted this in a negative light. But this is seriously something to consider. I know we have European members here. What do you think?

There are real issues at stake. My basic questions: is Europe in danger of being taken over by Islamic extremism? In thirty will the cultures of the English, French, Germans, Dutch and so many others be replaced by that of the middle east and Islam?

You should read "Londinistan." It's already a scary reality.

The answer is No.



You make it sound like Muslims are that entire 50%. That number also includes Africans and Eastern Europeans. Does anybody fear the Russians taking over Europe by long-term immigration?

For that matter, yeah fuckhead religious right-wingers were behind those attacks. That's not exactly up for debate. Hey did you know the Mafia back in the day were mostly Italian? Does that mean that entire immigrant wave are trying to take over America? Yes "some" aren't integrating. But there's that other "some" who are.

(Go read up sometime some of the contemporary reactions to the Irish immigration in the 19th century, followed by the Italians later on. You had some "natives" worried sick that these foreigners would overflood America and their Pope would take over our government. Of course now this now comes off as insane, but people back then truely believed it.)

Also your doomsday scenario of a Sharia-run France made me laugh. People bitch at France for having too loose morals, now you're worried that they will be too moralistic. Wouldn't American right-wingers like that? I mean they're always on and on about a degenerate society getting away from the "Good Book." Of course its a different book and the totaltarian mindset fueled by these right-wingers would be more pronounced and demanding, but hey God beggers can't be choosers.

Its a fact.

Another stupid straw man response to 123JoeSchmo that totally ignores his point. He wasn't making blanket statements about all immigrants nor about all Muslims. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that. You can't even make up your mind about what constitutes a religious right-winger. Get something straight: Not all religions are the same. Radical Islam is DIFFERENT than Christianity. Maybe American left-wingers want France to go to Sharia. It's the left-wing that seems to see no difference in all the different religious categories except when it comes defending the Islamists and illegal immigrants. If you think people would be happy living under Sharia, why don't you take the next flight over to a country where it's practiced, like Sudan or northern Nigeria.

Hey Ronnie fuckin rocket.

I didn't start this thread to get some liberal spiel on "right wingers" in our own country. I'm asking a simple question: is Muslim immigration good for European culture and human rights in general? Remember there are many Muslims who would think it should be illegal to insult Muhammad and even if they aren't radicals, would support Sharia law in general.

So answer my question rather than going off on your whacked out ideology.

Btw please do not compare Irish and Italian immigration to Muslim immigration. Please do not compare the Italian mafia to radical Islamist extremists. The Italian mafia does not go around killing people who don't agree with their religious beliefs. They were interested in one thing: money. Islamists want to impose their religious law on everyone else. Big difference.

Once again, you're missing the point.

Joe, Ronnie gave a well-thought-out reply to your question. While you might disagree with it, I don't believe I read anything personal in his response and I don't believe he attacked any of the members of this board.

However, your snide, condescending and dismissive tone, in addition to referring to him as Ronnie fuckin rocket, is exactly what was mentioned in another thread about the lack of even the merest hint of civility that has taken over these boards.

Try, just try, not to be so rude next time.

Having a lot more kids wouldn't warrant more followers for a religion. Religion is not a gene. Being a couple of minutes exposed to another way of life would be destructive to most religions especially if they are as restrictive as Islam is. I would sooner worry about tea party taking over the US.

Why should we worry about a strange culture invading and possibly taking over another nation's land, the minority of whom might twist and distort their different religious beliefs to justify the eradication or displacement of the people, who've been living on the land for centuries?

It worked out okay for the American Indians, didn't it?

I'm not worried about Muslims overtaking or having more babies or whatever in Europe. As far as changing the culture, well, culture always changes and it changes slowly. In France you're less likely to see Frenchmen bowing to Allah, and more likely to see second generation Muslim immigrants to France become snooty.

The French can be very snooty Klyd, especially to us English. It's all about the language, they don't like the fact that English is the universal language around the globe!!

"Pulled their asses out of two wars, the French. And what did they give us? A disgusting way to kiss."

--- Frank Barone

If they're not gonna integrate to European life then why are they even moving there?

Look, if you're worried about Islam taking over Europe, there was a movie made back in the 60s starring Carl Reiner that may allay those worries. It's called The Muslims are coming! The Muslims are coming! Watch it.

I'm sorry SB, I was rude, but only out of frustration that Ronnie didn't seem to want to answer the question. Instead what I got was his personal agenda against the right in this country. Obviously I can't tell over the computer, the context of his answer just seemed snide. Once again I apologize. But in any case, what do you think?

Kly let's not go the Native American route. As horrible as that was, let's get back to the present.

Many Muslims are indeed calling for their way of life in Europe. But that's not what I'm mainly concerned about. If Europe doesn't relax their standards on immigration they're asking for terrorist groups some of which we've already seen.

Islam as a religion is going through it's own "middle ages" so to speak in my opinion. Many people who practice it are peaceful and don't look for trouble, however we cannot pretend that Islam itself is peaceful when the Quran tells followers to fight those who do not believe. And many take that very seriously.

I do not want United States allies like Britain, France, and Germany to lose their culture to the growing segment of the Muslim population. Make no mistake, I'm sure most of them just want to integrate into the populace, but Europe must stop being soft and be wary of the radical groups who behead soldiers and place certain area under their own jurisdiction.

This may be the dumbest fucking post I have ever read in my time at this site. Religion is not a gene dude? You dumb motherfucker, as if these kids have a choice to tell dad "no allah". Maybe you were raised without religion (likely the case), but telling your parents your not going to be that religion is tough in any setting. But Islam?
Seriously, do you actually believe the shit you write?

They like the first world lifestyle, jobs and material possession- don't care for any of the tolerance or culture that created those economic conditions. So the goal will ultimately be to have enough kids to take over these dying welfare state societies and then create the same third world shithole that they left in the first place. Islam at its finest.

If you count driving a taxi a first world lifestyle.

I don't feel the need to explain the situation under which I was raised, least of all to a person like yourself, for the obvious reason of the tone of your post.

However, I hereby do solemnly swear that I seriously believe the shit I write.

vinnie -

This type of response will not be allowed here. You have to stop the name calling. You owe afsaneh an apology.

Your right sorry afsaneh. Im sorry your a fucking moron who thinks the tea party is more dangerous than islamic fanatics who kill innocent people in terrorist attacks.
Go fuck yourself.

I'm sensing some anger issues here. Bye!

Although not agreeing with vinnies choice of words, I do agree we should be more concerned about extreme Islamists than the tea party.

WOOOOO WEEEEEEEEEEE

There may be some anger management issues surfacing. I hope these lads seek help....of course to help nurture a kinder, more peaceful society. I'll pray for them.

Wow, just when I reported the post. Good call, SC.

What do I think? I think that Islam is a religion. There are those that are extremists, and I believe they are in the minority. It's similar to the KKK being ultra-conservative Christians. They are a small and hateful group, just as the Muslim extremists are.

Do I think they're going to take over Europe? No. I don't think it's a danger. We see and read about the atrocities because that's what makes the news. What are journalists going to cover about peaceful people who just go about their business? And in the news today, law-abiding Muslims obeyed the law and did nothing wrong today.

First, 123JoeSchmoe, you had to realize that you would get the typical pro-diversity responses from the same liberal crowd here. These folk only care about radical Islam as far as they can use it to turn around and attack Christianity. Or as an excuse to write off religion all together. Fortunately, we have Faithful1 here to call them on their bullshit.

And that's where we come to the second point. Due to it's rejection of Christianity in favor of secularism, Western Europe was already dying long before the Muslims started immigrating in big numbers there.

You have the secular liberal of Western Europe (or the U.S.) on one extreme. And you have the Muslim jihadist on the other extreme. Both are equally insidious and dangerous, just in different ways.

Hell, even Bill Maher gets the difference. Bill friggin' Maher. You'd think the idiot libs here would too.

When someone says they are sooner worried about A than B, it does NOT mean A is more dangerous than B. It means the likelihood of A happening, is more than that of B, though A is not very likely to happen either.

Plus, they are all ideologies. It's not like you could accomplish much by worrying about it. I personally wouldn't worry, because both of these ideologies wouldn't stand the test of logical debate. And strangely enough I have faith in common sense, and I do think the majority of people would eventually see the fault in these extremes.

A lot of doom and gloom about the fate of Europe. Good thing I am from the UK and we consider ourselves to be above the rest of Europe. I would love to talk more but as its Sunday morning I am due down the Mosque. Bye for now infidels!!

^^

I'm not in complete disagreement with you, Babe. But I'd have to see some research to back that up. Because something tells me that a higher percentage of Muslims born in the Middle East become radicals, than there are Southern White Christians who become KKK members.

PB, I didn't offer percentages. I said they are a minority in the Muslim world, just as extremists are in any world. Hate is hate, no matter what the source.

The Klan is pretty much a tiny minute fraction of southern white Christians. Many still hold conservative views, but there is virtually no connection between churches and the Klan anymore. The Muslim world is a different story. The faction of radical jihadists is certainly a minority, however there is a great percentage of regular Muslims, mostly among the men, that agree not with terrorism, but the implementation of Islam everywhere.

Now I know many Christians would like to see their doctrine implemented across the world as well. What is the difference?

The difference is this: Sharia Law. Any proponent of basic human rights would fight against this fundamental Islamist code of ethics. It subjugates women, bans homosexuality, prohibits free speech, etc. It dictates all law from hygiene, the economy, diet, and dress code.

Now I don't see white conservative pastors and priests trying make women wear hijabs, limit free speech or influence the economy. Fact is radical Islam is much more dangerous than conservative Christianity.

PUFF THE MAGIC DRAGON!

Part of the problem is, people can't even have an honest and frank discussion about the widespread and rampant extremism among Muslims today because when the subject is brought up, liberals (including on this board) immediately go into defensive mode. They have this ridiculous paranoia about others not realizing there are good Muslims too so they feel they have to remind us of that fact over and over again (or they bring up vague examples of bad Christians from hundreds of years ago, or ridiculous parallels with the KKK today) until the original point of Muslim extremism is completely lost.

Maybe you shouldn't post when puffing that dragon. Please take the Cap Lock key off.

I can't speak for Europe but they have gained a foothold in my neighborhood in Portland, Oregon. So much so that my children's Christmas play at school was not allowed to be called a Christmas play. They called it "The Grinch That Stole Whoop De Doo" True story.

Plenty of polls have been taken in the Muslim world. A majority want Sharia, less than a majority want it to apply to non-Muslims. Forty percent of Palestinians believe in suicide bombing.

We have to remember that when people say that "only a minority of Muslims believe in Sharia and suicide bombing," that if there are a billion Muslims a minority is 499 million Muslims. Overall a majority DO want Sharia, so let's say that's half a billion. Let's say 30% believe in suicide bombing. That could be a million potential suicide bombers. How much damage can a million (or even 100,000) suicide bombers do? Even the Klan doesn't walk into mosques or synagogues and blow themselves up, taking a large number of the congregation with them as they do in Pakistan, Iraq, Kenya and Israel and other places.

They might counter that the number includes children, but those children are raised to believe the same as their parents. The polls also show that young people are MORE likely to believe in Sharia and terrorism than older people.

Here are some links:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/108724/iranians-egyptians-turks-contrasting-views-sharia.aspx

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-w...s-about-sharia/

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/30/muslim-survey_n_3186144.html

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jan/29/thinktanks.religion

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/1/pew-poll-palestinians-favor-suicide-bombings-shari/

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timsta...ar-of-islamism/

I notice how Faithful and Joe have changed the subject from Europe to Muslim countries. Ironically, Joe who started this thread was worried about Muslims taking over the Europe, but now somehow he seems worried that they are taking over where they were already living for hundreds of years and don't know any other way of life.

Show me the polls on second generation Muslim-borns in Europe. Show me how many of them still want Sharia law. It would be mind boggling to me to see any sane person, having lived in a country that would grant them freedom of religion, after coming out of legal shadow of their parents when they come of age, wouldn't want to have what other kids have and want to restrict themselves to sharia law.

As for Sharia law and your view about it, you can't see it as a whole and the way people in Muslim countries see it, as screwed up as that maybe. For instance women in those countries are for it, as are men. They think it is right and just for women. So let me give you just one instance as to why women want it. It stipulates that women are in no way responsible for providing financial support for their family. Wives may work with the permission of their husbands, but what they earn is theirs only. Additionally men are to give them money regularly and failing to do so would be grounds for divorce. Men think it beneath themselves to revolt against such injustice and women find it comfortable, so why should they be against Sharia law? It's more complicated than the black and white picture you have in your mind.

Since many have this Muslim fervor brewing, did you see that yesterday FOX News broadcast a report that during the government shutdown Obama was using his personal funds to keep open the International Museum of Muslim Cultures in Jackson, MS. The vapid "journalist" found the story, which is obviously a parody written for amusement, on some web site and ran with it, claiming that it's unfair that the World War II Memorial had to be closed, but the President's private funds keep this open.

This is even funnier than Glenn Beck and FOX falling for the hoax that Obama's state trip to India would cost the taxpayers $2 billion and involve a flotilla of 30 American warships.

Who shut down the United States Government? Islamic terrorists or the tea party? Who wants to default on the national debt? Islamic terrorists or the tea party?

Who wants the current president to fail simply because he is black? Islamic terrorists or the tea party.

Case closed.

Once again DT your own personal feelings get in the way of being objective.

This government shut down, while largely due to the extreme branch of the Republican party, cannot be fully put on them. I think right now Congress as a whole is ineffective and useless. Both Dems and the GOP.

Secondly you're throwing the racist card again which got old the first fifty thousand times you used it. Perhaps some of the members may not like that he's black, but we can't know that. This is a battle of ideals, not skin color. The tea party is conservative- lower taxes, smaller government, etc while Obama is on the left- higher taxes, stimulus packages, obamacare, etc. From the start they didn't like his health care bill. They did everything they could to sabotage it, but they failed. Yet still they try to prevent it, even though most of the law is already in effect.

Let me also remind you the debt has quadrupled under Obama, I don't think anyone wants to default, but we have to figure out a way to lower it.

Now to Islam. Extreme jihadists want to blow up our cities. They want to kill innocent people, behead our soldiers, ruin our lives and impose Sharia law.

Oh yeah the tea party is certainly more dangerous

Also Afs I'm not changing the subject from Europe to Arab countries so don't put words in my mouth.

My point was that radical Muslims want Sharia law in the European countries they've immigrated too. That's my concern. If they want to have it in their own countries, still isn't a good thing but at least they're far away from the West. Certain places like Turkey and Egypt would never allow it anyway.

However I do appreciate the insight of some of the aspects of it.

First of all, all Muslims aren't Arabs. Arab is race, Islam is a religion. Second of all, for them to be able to have Sharia law implemented in Europe, first they must get elected to the parliaments or such law making bodies and pass their laws through that. So how many Muslims are now part of the law making body of those countries that suddenly has made you concerned?

Obama and the Democrat Senate shut down the government. Period. Obama's already been on the record for wanting to default on the debt when he was a senator. Who is lying by claiming that anyone wants the current president to fail simply because he is black? Dontomasso.

Arab is an ethnicity not a race. Anyway, just because Muslims are not serving in some European country's parliament today does not mean they won't be in it tomorrow, next year or in the next decade. It's just a silly argument to claim that because something is not X today it will never be X. The massive increases in Muslim immigration to Europe has only been relatively recent.

As for European Muslim attitudes, see this: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Shariah. It covers, Germany, Ireland, UK, Norway and Belgium. A sizable number in each of these countries does want Sharia and agree that people that convert from Islam to another religion should be killed. One of the polls I provided a link to DID included second generation Muslims. Don't forget, if you are an Iranian Shi'ite you also are considered a heretic by the majority Sunni Muslims, and in almost each case where Sharia would be implemented (Canada, so far, as allowed Sharia for inheritance laws) it would be the Sunni version.

Here Are Three Debt-Ceiling Lies You’ll Hear From the GOP This Week

Point is some Arabs are Christian. Some Muslims aren't Arab at all. Some may speak Arabic while their race is another and some don't speak Arabic altogether. It's not proper to call them Arabs when you are actually trying to refer to Muslims.

Yes, my background is Shi'a, and yet I'm not worried. I don't know, if you wanna be worried, then be worried.

Do you not think it's important to keep western values Europe and the USA? I agree with faithful in the sense that just because something doesn't happen today doesn't mean it won't tomorrow.

I don't think all Muslims are out to revolutionize the world in their image far from it. But I do think that Europe cannot allow radical Islamist groups to gain any foothold

Oh, yes, the EXTREME left-wing George Soros-supported Daily Beast blames the Republicans. Here's the rebuttal from several sources:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50156513n

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-government-shutdown-20130930,0,4091044.story

http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawki...ingNewsCarousel

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/360338/democrats-chose-shutdown-thomas-sowell

http://reason.com/blog/2013/10/02/democrats-want-to-use-government-shutdow

I still fail to see where this foothold is to begin with. I don't see large numbers of Muslims, getting elected to the office there. Moreover, most part of Europe have secular governments. They resist any sort of religion to influence their law making process. So honestly I'm not sure why you are worried.

Daily Beast have both sides contributing. I'm not sure who supports them, but sure as hell wouldn't trust the party that Koch brothers have propped up.

Americans being bullied at Muslim event, and denied their rights. Muslim securtiy, and even some American security guards deny them basic legal rights. One Muslim youth steals a pamplet from a man, then gives it to security, claiming they were handing them out. WE can also see where at end, when ops come they lie to police.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2okgUG_5Ys

Filmed by Muslims, this shows them enforcing own laws in England. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=beb_1358359911

And I wouldn't trust the party that Soros props up.

You people...hate blacks, hate muslims, hate Goerge Soros...you are true Christians. Quit using random stories about enforcement of the dreaded Sharia law. Its not coming here, or there, although I would think you people would like the fact that it is tough on crime. I mean why coddle these criminals. Cut off their hands. That will teach them.

BTW there are Muslims in Europe because they took all the jobs the Europeans didn't want..much like the Mexicans did here. Their numbers are inncreasing in large part because Christianity in Europe has collapsed. Hardly anyone goes to church.

Wait a minute DT. No one said anything about hate. For one thing, I'm not Christian, secondly the Western world has a right to be concerned with radical Islam? Why would you consider the tea party more dangerous than a jihadist who would blow you up without a second's hesitation?

Don't you dare play the hate card on me. I'm hateful? I'm realistic. Notice I don't stereotype all Muslims either. Most are very peaceful people. But for all the rights that liberals defend, they don't have a problem with Sharia law or the faction of Islam that would like nothing more than to take them away

You're so quick to slam Christianity. A flawed religion of course. What about extreme Islam?

You and Mullahs here have that in common. Any reformer here is labeled to have been funded by Soros.

Muslims is a-comin'
Their minarets are in sight
Muslim's is a-comin'
There's no dancin' tonight
Why don't-cha hurry, hurry, hurry home
Why don't-cha hurry, hurry, hurry home
Look here! The Muslims is a-comin'
There's no dancin' tonight

More lack of civility. Unlike the Mullahs I believe in free speech, and the ability to do it with being insulted. Funny you complain about someone bringing up Soros when you felt free to bash the Koch brothers for absolutely no reason. Of the two of us, you have far more in common with the Mullahs than I do.

First of all, you brought up Soros. Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned Koch brothers. Second of all, take it as an insult or whatever you want, you have this fear of Soros with Mullahs in common. It's a fact.

Here yo go for further reading:

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2010/11/12/guess-who-else-hates-soros-as-much-as-beck-does/173265

You people...hate blacks, hate Christians, hate Jews, hate Koch brothers...you are true left-wingers.

Muslims have immigrated a lot to good Europe countries, here in Latvia we have very few of them. And they don't come here because of the racism thing we got, practically everyone with a darker skin than white can consider getting a brick thrown in his face by a guy in a tracksuit at some moment of his visit in this country.

I brought up Soros in the specific context of a particular online magazine that you brought up. The Daily Beast is a biased ultra left-wing magazine that regularly fawns over Soros as a god who can do no wrong -- and that's putting it lightly.

But I never said I would never vote Democrat because of his or any other individual's funding and support. I used to vote Democrat but changed after its policies continued to go farther and farther to the Left. I'm more of a centrist with some libertarian tendencies. I also will take up for the other side when I see nothing but one-sided attacks.

Regarding the Mullahs, I'm sure they're not too fond of the Koch brothers since they are libertarians who support same-sex marriage and abortion (something that they have in common with George Soros).

It's funny that you use Media Matters to try to rebut anything I wrote. It is as dishonest a publication that one can have. It was founded by David Brock, whose claim to fame was a book on Anita Hill that was based on lies. It became a best-seller because he stood behind his book; only later was he proven to be a fraud. Once he was rejected by the right he went to the left, which apparently isn't bothered by his underhanded investigative methods. Even New York Magazine, which is far from conservative, called him "hyperpartisan." I've read Media Matters and it is so biased that it has no credibility. The Huffington Post is much fairer and objective than Media Matters.

I recommend you stop limiting yourself to left-wing sources of information. It has led to your one-sided far-left point of view. Have you ever even read material from conservative sources (conservative in the sense of center-right American politics)? It explains why you seem to see a caricature of the Tea Party and other groups. I've never been to one of their meetings, but I have no doubt that they are a lot more civil than Occupy Wall Street or MoveOn.org meetings. Anyway, it is usually better to read both points of view using each side's own writings. You really should give it a try.

You again and trying to spin a fact based on not being comfortable with the source. I don't need to get my news from Media Matters. I was here and I was watching the trials. They labeled every last one of those reformers that they had arrested with getting financial help from George Soros. I only linked it, after reading it and making sure all that was written there was the truth.

I recommend you stop BSing me.

It's no wonder you're the most extreme left winger on here. You won't listen to another point of view which is crucial in sitting down with another group and compromising with them. In one ear and out the other

Are you kidding? I am way to the left of Af.

I was looking forward to dancing.

Do you know what the problem with you is? Is that you think we're stupid.

He says Koch brothers are for abortion, yet their record of donations shows otherwise. There's nothing to listen here, except lies, lies and lies. And please don't insult my intelligence with saying you're not a right winger, cause it shows plain and simple when you ignore the BS from your side and come and pick on me.

And in the end, so what if I'd be the extremest lefty here? I wear that as a badge of honor, unlike you who is obviously soooo to the right, yet apparently ashamed to admit it. And I know why you are ashamed, it's because as I said GOP sucks and most people don't want to be affiliated with them at the moment.

You know what you're problem is? You really have no perception. None at all. Not a smidgeon.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Don't put words in my mouth and don't label me anything I'm not. I am first and foremost an American (you're not) and I've been a registered independent since I was 18. I believe in principles from both parties. The reason why I defend the right point of view on here is because this board IS SO DAMN LIBERAL is makes me want to break something.

It's important to consider and listen to other points of view, even if you don't like them, all in all it makes you a better debater and a better compromiser.

"soooo far to the right?" That makes me laugh. Do you see me commending Ted Cruz or Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck? I despise the tea party. But I also despise wingnuts like you that think being a super liberal automatically makes you some sort of saint.

You think you're untouchable in this place. That because you went to college in the United States and couldn't obtain a green card you're some sort of legend/pity case. You may not see yourself that way, but others do and that's why I get the boot if I say something out of line but you can tell me "I suck and the GOP"

I would have more respect for you if you weren't so demeaning all the damn time. But since you're keen on being a partisan liberal radical feminist, is it any wonder why I try to counter your arguments all the time? Any time there's BS on any side I call it out. Did you not see my thread on having no faith in the government?

Again, think before making comments like you just did.

I really don't need your respect Joe. If anything, I would check my positions twice if I did have your respect.

Schmo, your arguments would be stronger if you dropped the ad hominem attacks.

I looked under my bed this morning. There was lint covered Communist, but no Muslims.

Perhaps, but need I remind you of the attacks I've received from you and others on here?

What is important to recognize, is that every party has their faults, every politician and President won't be perfect. But as long as we stick to partisan ideals this country will sink further and further. We need compromise not dissent!

And of course someone's going to say "blame Obama!" or "blame the tea party" But when does that get anything done? The reason I posted the "I have no faith" thread was not to blame, but voice that if we are to get anywhere in the next decade, this nonsense must stop.

I think more than anything, everyone wants that. It's just we can't agree on how. And while Democrats and Republicans fight, we suffer. That's got to change

Ha ha ha ha!!! Dontomasso telling anyone to stop using ad hominem attacks!!!!! That's funny!!!!! If it wasn't for the ad hominem attacks dontomasso would have nothing to write. What a phony hypocrite. If you don't want him or anyone else to use ad hominem, then why don't you apologize to everyone who was the target of YOUR ad hominem attacks?

I apologoze to all those against whom I made ad hominem attacks, except for the morons.

Apology accepted. In addition I apologize for mine as well

Dontomasso, although since you added that "except for the morons" tail to your statement which makes me question your sincerity, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

As a follow-up, let's pledge to keep our debates and discussions civil with no insults and no personal attacks. No ad hominems.

I'll start out by pledging to that. Will you do the same?

So pledged. Let the games begin, and you do not have to suffer fools either.

I, we, don't have to suffer fools, but we don't have to sink to their level either.

Let's get back to the topic 123Schmo brought up. His concern, as I recall (and you can correct me if I'm mistaken), is that there is potential for radical Islam eventually dominating Europe. So let's look at that as a possibility.

Non-Muslim European birth rates have declined while Muslim European growth rates have risen, although the rate of the growth has declined. According to some demographers, Britain will be majority Muslim by 2050. Maybe the decline in the rate of growth will alter that prediction to 2060 or 2070, yet because of those demographic trends it most likely will happen. Each country is different, but some countries have similar scenarios: Italy, Spain, France, Norway, the Netherlands are often mentioned.

Let's say the above scenarios are correct. Not all Muslims are theologically conservative Muslims, but let's say 30% are. That 30% figure would translate to several million individuals who not only believe in Sharia, but in a worldwide caliphate, death to apostates, the elimination of Israel, hatred of Jews, approval of terrorism, etc. That's a huge amount of believers.

Moreover, those who believe in these ideas tend to be more activist than those who disagree. The fact that they believe in terrorism would mean they would terrorize those with whom they disagree, such as liberal and moderate Muslims, in addition to atheists, agnostics, Christians, Jews, and other non-Muslim groups. As evidence for this we can look at examples from Pakistan and Egypt. They target churches and more moderate believers and are deterred from going further because of military intervention.

Given this, is there at least a *possibility* that 123Schmo's scenario is possible at some future time?

In Europe, I put my money on the rise of atheists. There's an online census going on and I was pleased to see Iran is in the top ten countries in which atheists have bothered to be counted, though the total number is still in hundreds of thousands. I think as science debunks more and more religious myths that people would finally see through it and join us.

http://www.atheistcensus.com/

Yes Faithful you nailed my concern on the head. My question was there a serious threat of radical Islam becoming more prominent and visible in Europe. It was not to offend, merely for debate. For me personally I think it's a serious issue, and should not be minimized or laughed at.

123Schmo, I don't think it's asking too much to have a serious debate on your question and not mock it.

I think this article about the Party for Muslim Netherlands is relevant: http://www.forbes.com/sites/abigailesman/2012/01/16/muslim-party-seeks-power-in-dutch-parliament/

So, afsaneh77, you're an atheist. That explains a lot. Are your views similar to Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

I was about to say I had not heard of him, but then did a google search and realized it's a she, not a he. Still I've no idea. We don't have a church to go to and get to know each other.

afsaneh What do you mean by you the "Mother of Dragons" ????

It goes with my avatar. It's a character from the "Game of Thrones" series. She is called mother of dragons.

Geez, DT. If you didn't want me to enter this thread, all you had to do was say so .

She has a book out called "Infidel." Thought you may have heard of her.

Somebody earlier mentioned the matter of Christianity on the slide in Europe. I read in a paper yesterday that a survey of 11 year old kids in the UK and over 50% of them had heard of Jesus but did not know who he was. This is worrying of course!! Maybe all the kids in the survey were Muslims?

Come on yogi, you're a great guy, funny as hell and you always lighten the mood. But I think this is a real issue here. The primary reason is that I love the Brits. I life the culture- everything from John Lennon, Winston Churchill, Monty python, John Cleese, mick jagger, right down to Kate Middleton and the baby

Most Muslims in Europe in time will assimilate. But there are plenty who probably don't want to and many more who would like to see their way of life replace yours. By that I mean sharia, and that's not good for anyone

Christians have an important place in Europe's founding and building. They made Europe into a group of great nations. Anyone saying otherwise can then explain why so many Muslims are cramming into Europe from Musim nations, instead of other way around? They sneak in by the boatloads, or by overstaying tourist visas. They keep fleeing Muslim countires for Christian Europe. If they reach large enough numbers in 20 years, they will start to rule, They will then turn it into the same mess they created in Syria and other Arab countires, same as most of Africa, and same as parts of Asia.

Unlikely. Got any facts to back this up?

Just all of recorded history and the news. You know it's truth, and are only looking to be a pain and incite other posters. It's only thing you do on here, day after day.

Meanwhile, in France, immigrants from Africa are treating native French with all the respect in the world. Here, one of a group of grown men asks girl for phone number.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb5XsxtbqFQ

Just watching that sh!t makes me want to find a rope and a tree. [To hang yourself? Keep your racist shit off the boards! --JG]

(And any liberal on this board who has a problem with me saying that can kiss my @ss.)

Cut the racist shit. I'm NOT a liberal and DO have a problem with that comment (as well as the video) -- as should everyone in the human race. Disgusting and embarrassing!

I didn't see Ivy's original post; Geoffy edited it before I got a chance to look at it. And I guess the rope and tree remark can be taken as racist because of the history of lynching black people in this country, so I'm not defending him. But you know what else?

The guy who punched that girl, black or fucking white, should die, and I don't care what the fuck his "socio-economic" reasons for hitting her are. So don't go telling me that growing up poor and black drove him to do it. And if she was my daughter, and I was there, we wouldn't be having this conversation. That piece of human garbage would no longer be of this earth. And yeah, I'd really do it and worry about the consequences later.

How anyone can watch that video and not be enraged is beyond me (and I'm not talking about Geoffy or the mods; they're only doing their jobs here).

The racist tried to talk about BABOONS and how they should be brought back to Africa... something like that.

Despicable!

I'm not trying to hide anything -- just from ppl who hadn't yet seen the monstrosity of a human being who calls himself Ivy... the despicable racist who thinks he's smart and can handle things... like Fredo....

Oh will you quit your tired, PC nonsense? Monstrosity of a human being? Exaggerate much?

You're the type of person who's more offended by me calling that piece of shit a baboon than him smacking that girl.

That video should enraged all real men with daughters.

Forgive him, father, he knows not what he does.

Ivy - I don't know a lot, I was kept pretty much in the dark.

J. Geoff - Thats all right, we have time. What can you tell me about your posts.

Ivy - I ran into Michelle Bachman in Beverly Hills. She said you were getting tough on the message boards and there would be something in it for me if I brought them down a notch.

J. Geoff - And you believed that story?

Ivy - There was something in it for me. On my own.

J. Geoff - I've always allowed you to post.

Ivy - You're just one person who happened to start this board, and I was passed over.

J. Geoff - That's the way I wanted it.

Ivy - Its not the way I wanted it! I'm smaht, not dumb like everyone says, I'm smaht and I want respect! And what do I get? Ivy, keep your posts in the General Discussion. Ivy, don't bother with commentary on the trilogy or the novels. Ivy go start some mickey mouse thread about minorities somewhere.

J. Geoff - Ivy, you're a poster on these boards, and you can stay one. But I don't want you inthe trilogy, I don't want you in sections about the novels or in word games. If you try to post there I want to know three days in advance so I don't have to look. Now get out.

Ivy - Geoffie??!

(J. Geoff leaves....says to DC

"I don't want anything to happen to him until Mignon dies."

In the meantime DT, someone could take him fishin'.

The guy who hit that girl (actually two guys hit her; a second guy knocked her down) is scum who should be arrested for whatever equivalent to battery they have in that county, and a good beatdown.

But there are historic reasons why we shouldn't address black people as monkeys/baboons/any other type of simian. It's how that name was used to degrade a group of people who were kept as slaves, then later subject to segregation and lynching. Legalized segregation didn't end until less than fifty years ago. Even after the laws were changed it took longer for attitudes to follow. Being sensitive to historic wrongs isn't PC. It's recognizing the fact that a lot of people were mistreated just because of the color of their skin.

Maybe anyone of any color who would hit a girl like that would be a baboon (which, frankly, is an insult to baboons), but then it was followed by how they should be sent back to Africa. That clearly only applies to the same select group we're talking about. A white person doing that would not be sent back to Africa. So you ought to recognize that was a racist statement. Now I don't think a single racist statement makes a person a racist. If a person made racist statements all the time and they honestly reflected how that person thought, then yes, that person would be a racist. Other times maybe we say the wrong thing as an emotional response or because we are influenced by the wrong people. That person should admit it was wrong and own up to it and make an effort not to refer to black people using terms that are wrong for historic abuses of the past. Then let's move on.

As I happened to catch Ivy's post before it was edited, he didn't say the baboons should be sent back to Africa. He said they should be sent back to the jungle.

Good one DT. Just cause I'm turning 50 soon doesn't mean I have one foot in the grave...LOL

I'm not sure that's any better.

That video is despicable, and the guy that slapped that girl deserves a righteous beat down. I doubt he would have done that had her spouse, brother, or father had been around.

That being said, I'm not shocked at all by Ivy's comment. I've always suspected him of being a racist. Now it has been confirmed. Bravo, Ivy. I'm sure your God is proud to have you as a follower.

LOL Mig... I used your name cause of your icon.

I know Dt just giving you a hard time. All is good.

Its not any better, F. and your earlier, longer post is spot on correct. Nobody should tolerate that kind of behavior regardless of who engages in it. People like that need to be removed from society. Period. I dont care what race or religion or whatever.

There are many more similar attacks on the internet, and they are all African Muslims or Arabs in Europe attacking native citizens, not other way around. I don't wish to put up any more because they can drive people crazy. Rightfully so, It's terrible, but I don't wish to see people lose tempers and say something wrong. It does however tie in to the topic of this discussion. What is in that one video is just a small example of what is currently taking place in Europe.

Beisdes the slap, another man did go after the girl and kick her legs out from under her, on right side of the screen.

These godfather quotes are cracking me up

That being said, the animal in that video should be beaten with a crowbar and charged with assault and battery. And that's not because he's black, any man doing something like that should receive no less. My anger knew no bounds when I saw that video.

However ivy, you know I'm not a "liberal" or "white apologist" but that statement was undeniably racist. Your anger was justified but not the remark. What separates the good people from the bad is the ability of the good people not to stoop to levels such as racism or hate. Not saying you're a hateful person, we all make mistakes but it was uncalled for and not needed

There still has to be room for growth, change and forgiveness. None of us is without sin, especially considering that we participate on a board about organized crime! This is a board about people that lie, cheat, steal, extort, bully and murder. Any of those is far worse than someone making a single racist statement. We have to put things into perspective. I'm interested in the study of OC more for history than anything else, but there are people here and on other forums who actually admire the evil things these people do. To me, admiring evil is worse than a single statement directed only to those who assaulted a young woman and not an entire race. I'm not defending the statement, but we do need to realize it wasn't directed against all black people, only to the bullies. Some things shouldn't be tolerated, but in this case no one was hurt, assaulted, or physically attacked. We ought to allow forgiveness for that.

You do realize, of course, that the allegation of being a "racist" coming from a liberal hack like yourself is virtually meaningless. You guys pretty much think all conservatives are racists deep down.

That said, people who are familiar with me and my posts on these forums over the years know I'm not racist. If I was racist, I would have a problem with this guy simply because he is black. And that's not the case.

That was the whole point of my rant, DT. That guy is a piece of garbage. Black, white or green, rich or poor, you do something like that and you deserve your fate.

It may be meaningless under normal circumstances, but then there was that whole "tree and rope" thing, and something about "sending these baboons back to the jungle." Angry or not, somebody doesn't just say something that blatantly racist without some deep seeded hate. Those were comments based solely on his being black. It's not that difficult to be angered by something, but not go on a racist rant. Unless you're racist.

Do you hear that whirring sound? That's Plaw spinning in his grave over the vitriol that gets posted nowadays on the boards he loved so much.

I particularly love those who masquerade as "good Christians", the ones who spit on their fellow man. Wow, just like what Jesus would have done, the man who preached love, acceptance and forgiveness.

Everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes people say the wrong thing out of anger not because they believe in a particular concept. Ivy is many things, I don't agree with him on all of them, but I do not consider him a racist. Let's just forgive and forget and move on. Besides I think it would be more prudent to get back to the topic at hand

Hate is hate a racist statement is a racist statement.

That's actually not the case. There are a number of areas, regions or countries especially in Eastern and Southern Europe that have achieved quite a reputation for turning a blind eye to violent attacks against anyone considered to be foreign and/or insufficiently white. This includes not only Africans or Arabs but East and Central Asians, Roma and Turks. Russia and the former Soviet Republics probably have the worst current problems with right-wing nationalist/neo-nazi violence but Golden Dawn in Greece is doing its best to catch up.

As was said, right is right, wrong is wrong and hate is hate.

That reminds me of a statement by Professor Tony Campolo of Eastern Pennsylvania University. During a speech he said something like, "A million people are starving everyday and you don't give a shit. What's worse, most of you are more concerned with the fact that I said 'shit' than the fact that a million people are starving to death." What Ivy said was wrong, but it's not unforgiveable. He was also condemning and act that we all agree was not only wrong, but harmful. Perhaps the black aggressor was a racist, which is part of the reason he punched a white girl. He caused harm and injured someone. Ivy injured no one. Let's have a sense of perspective, and if you want, let it be a "teachable moment."

We should get back to the topic at hand. I concur with faithful, ivy is many things and I don't agree with him on many subjects but one thing I don't consider him is a racist. Lets move on and get back to the topic at hand

The really ironic part is, the thread began about immigrant Muslims taking over Europe. I don't know what religion the guy in the video is below, but he's obviously an immigrant. And immigrants are fine. But this piece of shit - and many like him - think they can come immigrate to another country and act like this without any worry of serious punishment or repercussion. And they're often right because the liberal, PC-driven mindset coddles them and overlooks this stuff because they're so concerned with not coming across as "racist." Their priorities, and what really pisses them off, are totally back-asswards.

Getting back to the topic at hand, what has to happen is a reformation of the Muslim religion much like the reformation of Christianity in the 1500's. Interestingly the Muslim faithh is about 1500 years old, so if past is prologue we will see a reformation from the exrtremists. This will happen on several fronts. In Eurpope, eventually, where will be more assimilation and then interfaith marriages. That will dilute the extreme doctrines of Islam. In places like Pakistan and even Afghanistan, there are changes happening, albeit much slower. That little girl who got shot simply for going to school has become a worldwide celebrity and a touchstone for Muslims who want change. In Iran, apparently the people arre way more secular than the theocrats who run the country, and it Saudi Arabia, there would be huge changes if the regime there did not rule with an iron grim, which by the way will not last forever.
The big picture is very simple. Once the masses in the Muslim world acquire enough wealth and stability in their lives, they will reject a lot of the craziness. Once you have something to lose, perspectives change.

Imagine no religion
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky....

Happy belated birthday to John Lennon, who would've turned 73 yesterday.

Oh yes, Happy Birthday John, RIP. AND shortly after his 40th birthday (Dec. 8, 1980), poor guy was gunned down.

On one of my NY visits, I stopped in a gift shop and saw a JL shirt hanging on the wall, with pic of him wearing a NYC shirt and sunglasses on the front and "Give Peace A Chance" written on the back.. I had to get that shirt.




TIS

After posting I saw title of this thread and I thought I replied in the wrong thread. Had to double check. Anyway, sorry off topic. Just call it a tension breaker. LOL Please proceed.......

Right on DT. Even in a country like Egypt that according to polls more people are for Sharia law than other countries, you see Muslim brotherhood winning the election with slim numbers, passing a constitution based on Sharia law, but then have people demonstrating a year later to overthrow that system. When it can't even survive in a Muslim nation, it's really beyond me how can it survive in Europe.

HISSS HISSS

He's singing a different tune now.

Lets not go there ivy, especially with John Lennon

Ivy should be removed from the boards.

Trick

I don't understand why its ok to push the gay agenda on people but when someone has a frim belief in the lord and adresses it he an ass-hole and is trying to "shove his beliefs down our throats". All of you pro-gays are hippocrates and are doing the same shit.

This thread isn't about that so take it somewhere else

I know I'm using a phone and hit the wrong thread either way.

SgW -- we all know you are in the closet, and frankly don't care.

I doubt it, sunshine. If there's a heaven, Lennon's there. A heaven without John Lennon just ain't heaven.

Hippocrates was the father of medicine.

Good job, even if I am it still doesnt change the fact that gays and bible thumpers been jaming there beliefs down peoples throats for awhile now, and if you disagree with them then your a Satanist or gay basher and thats getting old. Now my statement shows I've tryed to be open minded and look at both sides of thr fence but sucking d*** and believing in a higher power are just different IMHO, and I really don't care I'm just sick of reading that if you you don't approve of the gay lifestyle, then your a bigot, in da closest, or just an ass-hole. That's bullshit

Even back then Kly people confused his name with the noun. For awhile he considered changing his name to Bob.

You guys really have to stop this flaming shit, especially dontomasso. JUST STOP IT!!!

Yeah, they are acting like a bunch of religious extremists!

Ok, Ok, I am backing off.

Dontomasso has Blinked!!!

You are confusing blinking with showing respect for SC and the moderators.

You guys are so partisan. Using "liberal" like an insult and vice versa. Democracy only works when people are not partisan and can cooperate to come to mutually beneficial outcomes. There are two juxtaposing ideologies in America for a reason, but it's not to steadfastly agree with one and disagree with the other.

Can't we all, just like, get a long?!