Presidential Primaries 2008

Just two days to go to the Iowa caucuses! It will be very exciting!

I've been following the presidential election campaign very closely (for a European) during the last six-seven months or so. My choice has been quite clear ever since I got to know just a little about the candidates - the honorable and experienced John McCain. Therefor I've been happy with the development during the last couple of weeks, with his massive surge in New Hampshire, where he challenges the very unpleasant Mitt Romney. Apart from McCain, I think that Joe Biden is a competent guy, but sadly he has no chance in a quite dull democratic race.

So, I'm turning to you Americans here, what is your view on the GOP and democratic races? How will you place your vote?

I was thinking to myself yesterday is that one of these people will be our next president and the sad thing is that they will be voted in.

There's no candidate I really like, most likely I'll be picking the lesser of two evils. I think McCain would get my vote over all the others but I don't think he really has much of a shot at this point. We'll see.

I vote in the Pennsylvania primary, which is usually in May, when the candidates generally have already been determined. This year it is in April, which is still late. By that time I think the only remaining Democrats will be Obama, Clinton and possibly Edwards. I haven't made up my mind yet from the field.

US politics seem very complicated to me....

No kidding. In our attempt to do away with a king, we screwed up royally.

I'd like to see Obama get the Dem nod and McCain the GOP.

I could live with those.

Thats the point.

Well LBG, you may have opened a real can of worms here.

I don't know about anybody else here, but I have been literally glued to just about everything about this upcoming Presidential race for a very very long time now. I have tried to size up the candidates (moreso the major contenders anyway)I have watched most of the debates (on both sides), read a lot of tidbits/info on each candidate and am still undecided.

Let me say this much for those who maybe haven't been following yet or haven't been reading blogs, etc. Blogs of course don't determine the elction, but trust me, I see a real real verbally agressive and determined nation (on both sides), and I have a feeling the talking heads are NOT paying much attention to.

My predictions: Although I don't look for either to "win", Ron Paul is soooooo popular on the Conservative blog sites and he will most likely get many many more votes than most think (at least in Iowa and/or/if until he drops out). I suppose this could in turn take votes away from another major Republican contender.

On the Dem side, Kucinch (who just today said if he doesn't win encourages his followeres to vote for Obama..so sounds like he's already giving up), will also receive a lot more votes than most think. However, just today, I am reading a lot of negative blogs about Kucinich making the statement today to vote for Obama. His followers are NOT happy.

One thing for sure, in my opinion, for whatever it is worth, I do really really think this will be an election of surprises. From what I can tell, people of both sides are so ready for a major change in our country, even if each side has different ideas as to how that change should come about. That, along with the real possiblity that we could get our first woman or first black President, makes it a very historic election.

I'm looking forward to it actually. Ok, my two cents and now I'm gonna "try" to bite my tongue and stay away from here, but of course can't make any promises.

TIS

Sometimes he really gets me in, but then he'll follow up by saying something I totally disagree with... Isn't/wasn't he in support of reinstating the draft? We really need a president who is in little support for the war, if any. It's just hurting us as a whole, I think.

But anyways, at this point, Obama has my vote. I'm a registered Democrat, so I can't really vote in the Republican primaries, but even if I could, I don't know who I'd vote for... None of them really catch my eye. If I really had to, I'd probably just jokingly vote for Ron Paul, because he is pro-legalization, which, while a fine cause by me, is not going to happen anytime soon, and I'd just end up "throwing" my vote away. But even still, if we were to find ourselves in another rut like 2004 involving two bad candidates and an unlikely third party candidate, who seems to be the only one with any integrity left, I'd gladly "throw" my vote away on the underdog.

If you vote for the man or woman you honestly thought would make the best president, you're not throwing your vote away.

Yes and no. Morally, you are not. Politically, you are.

If I had been of age in 2004, I would have voted for Nader, has he seemed to be the best man for the job. Let's face it, Kerry allowed the masses to turn him into a puppet to project what he thought they wanted him to say, at any given moment. And Bush... Well, that's clearly gone to shit. So, of course I would've voted for Nader, but I referred to it, with little seriousness (hence the quotes), as "throwing away" a vote, because too many people vote with the mentality that they must vote within their party. Too much to the degree that it makes it nearly impossible to get a third party candidate into the presidency.

Well, let's face it, you can thank Ross Perot for getting Clinton into the White House.

When I registered to vote, I didn't declare a party. It sort of sucks, because I can't vote in any primaries. However, I am that elusive voter that all the candidates want to woo, so you would be AMAZED at the amount of literature I get in the month of October.

I think that nobody should vote along party lines. I think that people should vote for the candidate that A. Speaks to them and represents their views and B. Would also be the best for the country at the time.

Although traditionally I don't lean towards Republicans, mostly because of the ProLife/ProChoice issue, I think that a man like Rudy Giuliani might not be a bad choice. I have to know more about his views, but I say that because I think that, above all, this country needs a leader right now, and he has proven himself in that area. Right or wrong, disagree with much of what he did or not, in the month of September, 2001, he proved himself the man that most of the world turned their eyes to. And I think that we could use that right now.

Does that mean I'd vote for him?? Too soon to tell.

Ok, I suppose I'm the only weirdo watching/following the Iowa Caucus?????? Such a confusing system. I think I am finally catching on to what a caucus actually is. Why can't we all just vote? Why even have caucuses? I don't really understand why they make the process so complicated.


TIS

the republican field really is weak. i have NO idea who is going to get the nomination for either side. obama, hillary, edwards for dems and romney,mccain, huckabee for repubs pretty much i guess. what happened to giuliani?

I wish we would have some kind of forum where the candidates could really speak their minds on the issues, and even ask each other questions such as "I love your ideas on health care, but how are you going to pay for it?" or "How can you be expected to work as a concilliator when you acted like a petulant dictator when you were mayor of New York?"

Instead we have blowhard media types who cover the horse race and not the issues. I guarantee tonight that they will be harping on things such as :

1 IN THE GOP - if McCain gets more than 15% they are going to claim he's back from the dead and that he will possible win New Hampshire. If Huckabee doesnt win outright they'll proclaim him politically dead even if he finishes second.

2. In The Dems - Its still all about Hillary. If she finishes third they will say she will have a hard time recovering. If Edwards finsihes third they will declare him politically dead, and if Obama wins they will be proclaiming the second coming of Christ (this is so they can then go after him in New Hampshire...after all their favorite sport is building people up and then tearing them down. Just a month ago Huckabee was the next Reagan and now he's the village idiot).

Like I said, it does get complicated and yes I wish the media blitz would end. I could easily do without the slams on each party. Everyone claims they don't like negative ads, but I really think most people like them, although I'm NOT one of them. They did work in destroying Kerry last election.

Anyway, from my understanding of the caucus's is: One MUST show up and literally stand and vote for a particular nominee, in front of everyone. There must be a certain number of people to stand up and say they vote for that person, or that person is eliminated (in that state caucus). "IF" that person doesn't have enough votes these people can go to their next choice (which is why Kucinich told his followers to go to Obama...he assumes he won't have enough votes). Then, from what I understand, there are many Independents and undecideds AND they claim, that young voters, if they show could have an impact. Anyone else who knows more of this procedure and or understands it differently feel free to post. I just don't think this is a fair process.

TIS

What happened to Fred Thompson?

Shhhhh Miggie, you'll wake him up.

thompson seems like he was pushed into the race and he doesn't really have much fire when he speaks. it shows in his poll numbers

Greekdude, I think Giuliani was a Johnny one note candidate.

It was all 9/11 all the time, and he idnt have much else to say.
Also he has lots of skeletons in his closet.

Thompson will probably drop out tonight if he doesn't finish 3rd tonight. And endorse McCain

Giuliani is not existant in Iowa, he focuses everything on winning Florida and then other big states on Super Tuesday. A risky strategy. He will probably finish 6th tonight.

TIS: I think that it is a bizarre process indeed, but it certainly have many very good points. There was a good article in The Economist about this: http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10328996

The formula for choosing delegates would baffle Einstein.

As I've said, because I can't vote in a primary I don't pay too much attention. However, that's probably been neglectful on my part. I honestly have no idea these things are chosen.

Well, Bye Bye "Clinton is the Front-Runner."

(D)

Obama - 38%
Edwards - 30%
Clinton - 29%

(R)

Huckabee - 34%
Romney - 25%
Thompson - 14%
McCain - 13%
Paul - 10%
Guiliani - 4%

Biden, Dodd to abandon White House runs

I thought old Hillary was the Democrats favourite?
Not any more obviously?

She is, on national level. And she's got the support of the democratic establishment. Still favourite for the nomination, in my eyes, but things can change fast if Obama wins NH as well.

I remember in '88, Pat Robertson finished well ahead of George Bush (papa) in Iowa. Thus, Huckabee certainly can't count any chickens right now.

Obama's victory is more significant, I think. Beating Hillary in an open field by 9 points is impressive, and the Clinton camp has to be reeling a little bit. There's a long way to go, but there are a lot of Democrats on the fence across the nation, and if Obama gains and increases momentum, he'll be hard to stop.

His big asset, like Huckabee's, is that he is not a Washington insider. His critics cite a lack of "experience," but frankly, experience hasn't gotten ourselves a lot recently.

If Obama takes NH, Hilary is toast.

Of course it's way early and anything can happen, but....FWIW


I still don't buy into the idea that Hillary is the favorite. I never have. I think that's what the media wants us to buy. They lean right and they know that Hillary is hated by so many. The media "wants" her to win because they think it'll be a fairly easy Republican win in the end. That along with the fact that, I still do not know of one person who says they are voting for her. I'm not surprised she came in third.

That being said, anyone watch this caucus yesterday? Obama gave a truly inspiring speech. He brought out more young voters than ever before and that gave him a bigger edge.

TIS

Iowa picks corn -- New Hampshire picks presidents.

Name the last winner of the Iowa Caucases that went on to win their parties nomination????

Iowa does not pick a winner - it just weeds out the has-beens. It is a interesting state in which the Republicans are very conservativ and the Democrats very liberal.

I don't think there were many suprises. If any maybe the degree to which Huckabee did win; maybe that McCain did not sneak up into third; and also that Edwards did not win since he has been there since 2004. Money won on the Democratic side (Obama spent the most on advertising (in his neighboring state); but also lost in the huge amount that Romney poured in. Bottom line -- what a boon for the economy of Iowa!

Blame all this caucas stuff on McGovern

True, but I put forward Howard Dean in 2004.

The "front-runner" for the Democratic nomination, he bows a 3rd-place finish at Iowa. His people claim that it didn't matter, that New Hampshire is what matters...then the "Scream."

And he got his ass kicked there again.

That speech is the "great moment" of the campaign season so far.

The Obama situation in New Hampshire may be different. New Hampshire likes to knock off "unstoppable" establishment candidates. That's the bed Hillary made and now its the bed she is going to have to sleep in. If young people turn out in NH and give Obama a victory, its game, set and match.

Also, FWIW in Iowa they had a record number of youth show up for the caucus which is what gave him the edge. If he can do it again in NH that would be to his advantage as well.

Is anyone suprised at Huckabee?



TIS

Huckabee is surprisingly charismatic for a conservative. Romney is the most gracious second place finisher I've ever seen. The silver medal comment was hysterical. As a New Yorker, I really lost a lot of respect for Rudy for his blase attitude toward Iowans and the caucus in general. Fred Thompson should see if he can still get a job with one of the Law And Order franchises.

As for the Dems: Obama's speech really inspired me. It's just setting in that he's the first real Presidential contender from my generation. Edwards 2nd place finish is huge for him. I think Obama-Edwards gives the Dems their best shot.

I know it's early, blah, blah, blah, but I'm gonna' say it anyway----Hillary is toast. Likeability counts, and no one really likes her, not even the people who are backing her. Did you notice the faces in her entourage? For someone who has been using "change" as her theme, there were an awful lot of tired old faces in her crew----read: 90's Dems.

If you want real change you have to change the type of person you vote for, not just your party line.

Yes, in the commentary afterward, they noted that this President could very likely be the last President of the Babyboomer generation and that people are more concerned about a "change" as opposed to the same old thing. I believe that could very well be the case.

TIS

I got to my precinct location around 6 PM when the caucus was to begin at 7. I was a precinct captain for Joe Biden in my township of Keokuk. We had 65 people show up to the caucus in our township alone (a township is a precinct in rural areas). In order for Biden to be viable, we needed 15% (which is the constant formula for finding viability), so 15% of 65 was rounded up to ten caucus-goers. However, when we got there, and looked for others who want to take our side, there was only ONE undecided voter out of all of them (who ended up joining her daughter in Edwards' preference group). Even if we were to get her to join us, we would still need another six people to gain just viability alone. After the first count of how many in each preference group, the big three: Obama, Edwards, and Clinton pulled in the most people, as Dodd had two (a firefighter and his wife), and Biden had three (my parents and I). When the count was taken and Biden was counted as not enough for viability, my parents basically abandoned me, then again, it was kind of a lost cause. They asked me where I would go, and I chose Obama. So although we signed in as Biden supporters, his lack of viability caused Obama to receive our caucus votes.

Edwards had an overwhelming majority in my township, and in other precincts who met at our location. It didn't really surprise me, as I knew Edwards would do well in Ottumwa, as his blue-collared appeal has won over many voters in my industrial town (population around 26,000).

Basically, my parents and I saw the caucus as an attempt to support Biden, and if that didn't work, an attempt to not support Clinton. We didn't chose Obama blindly, however, as we went to some of his events in Ottumwa (I even worked in his campaign office at one time and canvassed for him), my mother got her picture taken with him at one event, and he signed my copy of "Audacity of Hope".

Now it should be interesting to see how the candidates do in New Hampshire, especially Giuliani who pratically ignored Iowa believing he could get the nomination without winning the caucuses. It was nice to see Ron Paul get a decent place, as he landed in fourth behind Thompson and ahead of Giuliani. Maybe the strong independent parties of New Hampshire will help boost Paul furthermore.

The GOP's way of handling the Iowa Caucus I much prefer over the democrats' way. They basically show up and vote. They don't do it in accordance to their precinct, but all of the registered Republicans in Ottumwa met at the high school, whereas the democrats scattered like cock-a-roaches (I caucused at Agassiz Elementary). And if you vote for somebody in the GOP caucus who wouldn't be viable in a democratic caucus, it can still count. That's what frustrates me about the democratic caucus, a lot of these underdogs like Richardson, Dodd, and Biden had no voice when viability spoke. In a way it contradicts the essential meaning of the democratic party, and that's a voice for the underdog along with a voice for the people.

Interesting account. I see Biden and Dodd have dropped out of the race, and I suspect that will help Obama more than Clinton.

I admire Bill Clinton and think he was a very good but not great president who will probably be remmbered for Monica Lewinski. I strongly dislike Bush and I believe he will be seen as one of the worst presidents of all time. It would be a sorry legacy for the boomers all they produced were thse two as their only presidents.

I don't think this will be the boomers' last shot. If you're going by 1946-1951 as dates of birth, the'll be around for the 2012 election. Just do the math. Beyond that, well, then they're entering Bob Dole territory (running in their 70's).

If Obama wins and serves two terms it will be 2017 when the next president is inaugurated. I doubt that some aging boomer would replace him.

I think that Obama just may surprise everyone, as did Clinton back when he first ran. Nobody expected him to get the nomination, and it's ironic that his wife could very well lose what seemed to be an easy win.

I think that we as a nation are not yet ready to elect a woman president, I don't care if Mother Teresa was running. Plus, Hillary lost a lot of possible supporters who are afraid that she's going to turn our healthcare system into socialized medicine.

Although many decry Obama's lack of experience, I think it's going to turn out that it will be what appeals to people. They want youth, they want energy, they're sick of the "same old" and they are VERY sick of the established politicians. And if he can bring out the young people, who traditionally don't vote, then he's got an excellent shot.

Or perhaps Edwards-Obama.

Yeah, for sure. Don't forget, there are still some boneheads that might vote for a black man in the #2 spot but not the top spot.

I always associated baby boomers with the years 1946-1964? I understand that there was a significant drop in the birth rate in the mid-60s, largely due to the use of artificial birth control.

That's exactly why I think an Edwards-Obama ticket could work. I feel that many from the democratic party like and trust Edwards, and that those from the other parties, if forced to pick a democrat, feel comfortable with Edwards. While there are many who claim that they would vote for Obama as President and trust him to lead this country, there are just as many who may like Obama but just do not feel comfortable with his lack of experience as well as his age, to run this country just yet. Let's be real here, whomever walks into the Presidency has a whole lot to deal with right now both Internationally and Domestically.

And in all probability, those who like Obama but are not sure if he should be the leader of this country right now, would feel more comfortable with an Edwards as their leader than Obama. The youth of this country would still back Obama, even if he were named as a running mate, therefore giving Edwards the youth vote that he currently does not have. And that's why I think if Edwards were to name Obama his running mate, that would be the best scenerio for the democratic party.

Exactly. The more I gain experience, the less value I place on it.

DC, I am n0t sure about Edwards. Last time around he couldn't even carry his own state let alone anyplace else. Keep in mind he did not run for re election to the Senate from North Carolina because he was going to lose by all accounts. Instead he's been camping out in Iowa for the last couple of years, and look what that got him -- an eight point trouncing by Obama.

On top of that Edwards' wife is a very sick woman and she is likely to deteriorate over the next year. They've got two small children, and I think he needs to be dealing with all that and not the presidency.

The real elephant in the room is Obama's race, and no matter what the polls say there will be people who claim to support Obama who will not vote for him in the privacy of the voting booth. That's exactly what happened in Tennessee to Harld Ford, who led in the polls, and earlier to a black man for Governor of Virginia, whose name escapes me.

Bottom line is Obama needs to hold th states Kerry won and pick up one or two more. If he gets the nomination, I believe he should pic Evan Bayh from Indiana. He's white, and he's a midwesterner who wins over and over in a traditionally republican state. This would put two midwesterners on the ticket, and it would force the republicans to spend resources in places they usually take for granted. The olf south will never vote for any democrat, let lone a black one, so they can write off places like Mississipi and Alabama, and focus on Florida, Ohio, Tennessee, Indiana, Illinois, New Mexico and Nevada. I think if they pick up any three of those states they win it all.

Exactly proves my point. He did not win. he was a front runner. Did not meet perceived expectations and was thus was weeded out

You think they'd vote for a woman in the top spot?

No. Same mentality. Personally, I won't vote for Hillary because I don't like her, it has nothing to do with her gender. Really.

Tony Love,

What an interrsting fun experience being able to go to a caucus. I sure wish I was retired this year. I'd love to get politically behind a candidate and work for him (or her). I am just learning the difference between the caucus and primary. It is very confusing for sure, but to really believe in someone and to be able to help promote that person sounds like a real rush.

I tend to think we are "more" ready than not for a woman or black President. They said that Iowa was traditionally a conservative/white state, so this caucus surely must have said something. Yet, yea, you never know. There are many out there who simply wouldn't vote for a woman/black. I would love to believe we are far beyond that.

They will be having N.H. and then several others in the next two weeks. We'll have to see how it plays out.

TIS

I think more peole would vote for a woman, but not Hillary. As a long time Dem, I would probably vote for her in the general election, but I would do so holding my nose. There is nothing likeable and little genuine about her. Plus she has an annoying voice that I dont care to listen to for the next four years.

Some valid points Don T. Very valid.

But something tells me that this time around more people have begun to embrace Edwards. And the battle that he and his wife took on with her health can actually be a positive for him.

I also feel that in this election many non registered democrats will not vote their own party and will cross party lines. And in doing so I feel that if the democrats want to pull those kinds of votes over to their side, their best shot of doing so is by having Edwards as their man.

If non dems decided to vote democrat in this elecetion, I feel that most would probably feel comfortable voting for Edwards over Obama or Hillary.


I feel that most in this country do NOT think that Obama is Presidential material just yet. I think that many feel that right now, with the country and the world being in the state it is in, that he is not the right man for the job at THIS time.

What's terrible about this election is that republican or democrat, I think that most are going to vote by a process of elimination, rather than voting for who they sincerely feel is the best candidate for the job. Voting for the least of the worse. And again, that apllies to BOTH parties.

I agree, TIS. I think that a woman or African-American can be elected, if he/she is the right person, and if gender or race is made an issue, all the better for that candidate, especially someone like Obama, who seems that he could deal with the issue of his lineage with the same appeal and eloquence that John Kennedy dealt with his religion.

Of course, there are those, who won't vote for a candidate because of his/her race, gender, religion, etc., but those people are fewer than they were years ago. There are also those, who will vote for Obama or Clinton because of this too.

By the way, the Clintons are fierce campaigners and hate to lose. She was very complimentary and gracious in her remarks last night, but I expect the gloves to come off as she may need a solid showing in NH. She wore the bull's eye in Iowa, and now Obama has it in NH.

My personal opinion is that there are too many rednecks and biggots in this country that will not vote for Obama simply because he is an African-American. Clinton has ravenous support and hatred, even from her own party. The only chance Obama has, in my estimation, is if minorities and young people turn out in record numbers at the polls and vote for him. It's going to take a heck of an effort to overcome the hillbillies/corruption in southern Ohio, the deep south, Texas, and the red states out west.

None of the candidates from either party really inspire me. I will still vote, but politics in this country has become all about deep divisiveness, smearing the opponent, and who spends the most money. These candidates all line up and spout off about improving education, paying down the deficit, and providing universal health coverage. Yet, when the time comes for action, nothing is done. John Edwards, Guiliani, Romney, et al. do not care about these issues - they care about getting elected.

The issues most important to me are (in no particular order) 1) ending the Iraq War, 2) improving the environment and our dependence upon Middle East oil, 3) getting our lagging school systems up to standards, 4) stopping the escalating health care costs for those who are insured, 5) insuring everyone, 6) maintaining the safety of our country and finishing the job in Afghanistan and, if necessary, Pakistan, 7) end the corporate taxbreaks and helping the everyday people of this country by reducing the tax burden, and 8) doing something to help rebuild New Orleans instead of the areas only seen on tv during sporting events.

I just read that Hillary lost the women's vote to Obama 35%-30%.

That stat has to have her reeling.

maybe so -- but it was expected. Call it the Oprah effect!

Essentially Hillary's only shot was to met mor of the aged population (65+) which is her core support. Obama's goal was to get the youger crowd out and he succeeded.

It has changed a bit but I worked on the '88 Campaign in Iowa and spent several cold miserable months knocking on doors, attending town hall meetings, etc.... Those were the days before Al Gore invented the information super highway, so no internet campaigning. Sadly my candidate lost (came in 3rd) and not too long after NH and SC he dropped out.

I'm voting for Obama, but neither he nor Hillary have a chance in hell at beating the Republicans. America is not going to elect a woman, and it sure as hell won't elect a guy named Obama.

Girl power

1988? Third place? Dropped out?

I'm going to guess (if a Democrat) Paul Simon or Bruce Babbitt; if a Republican, I'd guess Jack Kemp.

The Quarterback!

2004 - Kerry
2000 - Gore, Bush
1996 - Dole

But you are right. I still hold Clinton, who has the party establishment behind her, as favourite.

Gotcha.

Exactly -- and look only one of these candidates went on to win the general election.

I am not sure who is the favorite -- it comes down to $ and organizaton.

Actually I was being optimistic. I think he came in 4th. And you know the mantra -- if you cant escape Iowas 1, 2 or 3 -- your toast

It may have been 4th. I would guess that Dole won. Robertson, I know, finished ahead of Bush Sr., who probably beat Kemp.

I believe that is correct. I was there and a part of it and cant even remember LOL I must be getting old!

TIS:
Thanks for your interest. The primary/caucus process is a very interesting process. Unfortunately, many Iowans don't know how the democratic caucus functions (the GOP one is simple), and therefore I think their attendance mixed with their ignorance is counter-productive. It's as JFK said, "The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all."

Basically when you arrive, you sign in as a blank supporter (I filled in the bubble for Joe Biden). You want to show up early, so you can get more supporters and look like you have support. They don't allow anybody else to sign in after 7, when it begins. Then you form your preference group, and who ever is in charge counts up the numbers. If your group doesn't have at least 15% to be viable, you have 30 minutes to get people to join you. This is where the people from Iowa are stupid. My cousin Joshua is a firefighter, he caucused for Dodd. Dodd, in his precinct, needed one more person to be viable. He saw Edwards had many people, so many to where he was viable and had delegates. If Edwards would have lost one person, it would NOT have affected him. So Josh (being precinct captain), asked the Edwards group for one person. The Edwards people were being stubborn, and didn't leave their candidate, thus Dodd was not viable, and his supporters had to disperse so it appeared he had NO support.

It's just horse shit really! It pisses me off because the national news media plays it up like the primary process starts in Iowa because we're so elite and wiser than other states' voters. I'm thinking if that were true, we'd at least know how our own caucus process works.

The reason the caucus starts in Iowa is because Iowa's lobbied for it for years (since it began in 1972, I believe). The reason the media and the state will claim it starts here is because our state is a swing state. We have a democrat and republican in the senate (Chuck Grassley and Tom Harkin), we have 3 democrats and 2 republicans in the house. Plus we're considered "common people" out in the heart land, not the New England intellectuals, Hollywood liberals, or southern "values voters". I'm not denying this fact, I'm just saying I think money speaks louder than anything.

Thanks for all the info Tony Love. I am learning.

I don't suppose anyone else is geeky enough and watched both the Republican and Democrat debates????

TIS

Yes I am geeky enough to have watched the Rep and Dem debates live Sat and the rerun on Sun!

Just to add to some observations and comments....Friday, Imus had Tim Russert on his radio shows commenting on the caucuses...in brief the cry for change, the Christian conservatives and the young vote were the big factors. Hillary, McCain, et al are seen as the old political machine. Obama is appealing to the young voters and to women (more than Hillary as previously stated). Iowa is more about social change where New Hampshire will be more about economics, so Obama and Huck will slip there.

Regarding change, I remember back in '76. The country had gotten over the Nixon years with Ford providing stability, but the country still wanted change, thus Jimmy Carter was elected. The same could happen with Obama. The demographics of America have changed. It should be interesting.

Doesnt look that way for Obama Mary. He is on fire. The change mantra is nothing new. JFK, Carter, Reagan and Clinton have all ridden it to the White House.RFK rode it to his grave. What is surrising is that for all their poliical savvy the Clintons didn't pick up on this. Maybe they are old and out of touch.

Of course who knows what will really happen, and I may be proven wrong. However, for a long long time now, I have never thought Hillary would be President. I still maintain that's the case. After listening to speeches, reading articles, blogs, etc. I still say there will be surprises. Obama IMHO could very well be that surpise that seemed to come out of the blue. I tend to agree with DT here.

Just as with MacCain being currently in the lead on the Republican side, I am still have my doubts that he'll make it, thinking perhaps Romney or even the longshot Huckabee might win.

I do think this is probably one of the most important election in my lifetime and think this particular time that the polls may be way off in the end. At any rate, it'll be very very interesting for those of us closely following this race.

On a sidenote, I saw this Obama "swift boating" (by kids) and had to search to make sure that it was a joke and thankfully it is. If you care to browse it has these same kids "swiftboating" all the candidates. Pretty sad really when you think how gullible people can be. But I think they all still will get down and dirty.

TIS


Kids Swiftboat

You mean the same Christian conservatives who wanted change by electing George W. Bush?

Remember when he was touted as the "Sheperd"?

Then one of his former aides came out with a book, a sincerely serious Christian, who claimed that Bush's clique at the White House mocked the "sheep" that is their Evangelical support.

Remember DIE HARD and its sequel DIE HARD 2: DIE HARDER?

Well I'm sorry, but Huckabee is BUSH HARDER, a sequel I don't want.

That said, better him than Romney. What a fucking douchebag.

Edwards 08

Wow the pundits and pollsters were really dead on with the Dems.

I guess Hillary's fake tears worked huh?

Looks like they did.

We watch these politicians on TV. We don't meet them. We don't know them. Therefore, how in God's name can anyone seriously contend that they can accurately evaluate anything about them except their words?

That's what is appealing about Iowa and New Hampshire because the pols have to meet just about everyone in those states. I think the worst thing that's happened to the system (other than the complete corruption of it by moneyed interests, and the rigging of elections) is the rise of the political consultants.
I wish I had a dime for every politician who apears to be a total phony on television who is said to be bright, funny and charming in person. Maybe if these people acted like themselves we would get a better picture of who we are dealing with.

Those Clintons have more lives than a roomful of cats. This may be an exciting campaign.

The media is so laughable. They were absolutely trashing Clinton, essentially burying her. Obama was the Golden Boy. Now, with this win, Hillary is the "come-back" kid and Obama the big loser (at what a 3 point difference?). How many more primaries are left? 48 (each state holds a caucus or primary no?)

Anyway, it sure will make for an exciting race on both sides. The media likes to give the impression that it's over with Hillary and McCain, but I think it's way too early to tell.

TIS

US politics are very confusing but very exciting....

It's the very reason I hate the media.

You know what?? Hillary is said to be robotic and unemotional. Then she shows some emotion, and she's called either unstable or a faker. There is a long campaign ahead for many of these candidates, and everyone should remember that, especially the candidates!

Both Clinton and Bush lost New Hampshire in '92 and '00, respectively

I really don't care about a President's personality. He can be the spawn of the devil for all I care. I want one with sufficient intellect to make good decisions that enhance America. Nearly 4,000 deaths later, to some Bush is still someone you can go out and have a beer with. Madonne!

As long as he's not drinking with John Newcombe...

Everyone in favor of putting duct tape over Chris Matthew's mouth say Aye!

AYE, AYE, AYE.

Aye, Aye. Then we'll staple Bill O'Reilly's mouth shut.

I'll amen that as well. Does anyone know exactly why the blog world calls Mathews "Tweety?"


TIS

How about we just kill off anyone who describes themselves as a "pundit?"

I mean, wtf, just for calling yourself a silly name like that you should lose your voting rights.

Because he tought he taw a putty tat.

I'll bite .. why?
And while we are at it lets gag Russert, Hannity and Tom Brokaw.
I thought Brokaw retired. He should get out already.

Actually I don't know why Tweety. I was wondering if anyone else did. It's funny though.

Back to the media for a moment. A lot of people (bloggers) are slamming the media for reporting that John Kerry is supporting Obama, and that the Culinary union in Nevada as well. These people claim it's to sway voters. I'd like to think voters aren't that gullible.....but then Bush was elected twice.

I think, to a degree, this is important no? I mean I'm sure soon Carter will say who he is backing, along with say Ted Kennedy or anyone Dem Or Rep, of importance may say who they are backing. Is this something that you take as the media's fault? Should it not be reported? In other words what would be considered news without bias and just plain news?

TIS

I would criticize the media if they didn't report this. I don't know what effect endorsements have, but when the 2004 Democratic nominee for president, who lost a close election to a sitting president, endorses someone other than his running mate, it's pretty interesting.

First, the media reorted with cerainty that the Culinary Union in Nevada was going to endorse Obama. I have not heard about John Kerry. Whatever the case it is not clear the Culinary Union's endorsement was contingent upon Obama winning the NH Primary. This fact was omitted from all news accounts I saw.
The reporters are supposed to report THE FACTS. I remember the morning of the Benezair Bhutto Assassination when Mika Brezinski was hearing stuff in her ear about the developments and she kept saying to the director ...Can I go with this? Can I go with this, and then she said first that there was a "report" that she could not verify that Bhutto was hit and in hospital. Then she said there was a "report unconfirmed that she was in grave condition" then a "report she had died" and finally a confirmation from Reuters that she was dead. Thats how developing news is reportd properly. You tell the listener, or viewer or reader what is going on. The "unconfirmed report" tells us that we cannot rely on it but that is what is being said. Once it is "confirmed" then we have the facts.

Here they jumped the gun on this Culinary Union thing which is inexcusable, even if they wind up backing Obama. The news was they were considering it, but there were conditions.

As for Kerry's endorsement, I doubt it does much good whether true or untrue. I dont think endorsements mean much. As far as Kerry not endorsing his former running mate, be reminded that Gore did the same thing to Lieberman in 04 when he endorsed Dean.
In both cases there is no love lost betwen the former running mates. Lieberman, who is one of the sneakist lying weasels on th lanet stabbed Gore in the back during the Florida recount, and of course later on he stabbed his own party in the back when he refused to play by the rules. As for Edwards, the Kerry people think he tanked the debate against Cheney and basically ran a lazy campaign with the idea he could get national recognisition to make his own run four years hence if Kerry lost. I do not think these guys are even oon spaking terms. I have also heard that Edwards had some unkind things to say about Kerry's wife.

These politicians can publicly endorse whoever they want but once they get behind that curtain to cast their vote no one knows.

Say bye to New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson
Buh bye!!

I recieved this e-mail today. Thought I would pass it on.

33 Senators Voted Against English as America 'S Official Language June 6, 2007



On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 23:35:23 -0500, "Colonel Harry Riley USA ret" wrote:

Senators:

Your vote against an amendment to the Immigration Bill 1348, to make English America 'S official language is astounding. On D-Day no less when we honor those that sacrificed in order to secure the bedrock character and principles of America .



I can only surmise your vote reflects a loyalty to illegal aliens.

I don't much care where you come from, what your religion is, whether you're black, white or some other color, male or female, democrat, republican or independent, but I do care when you're a United States Senator, representing citizens of America and vote against English as the official language of the United States

Your vote reflects betrayal, political surrender, violates your pledge of allegiance, dishonors historical principle, rejects patriotism, borders on traitorous action and, in my opinion, makes you unfit to serve as a United States Senator... impeachment, recall, or other appropriate action is warranted.



Worse, 4 of you voting against English as America 'S official language are presidential candidates: Senator Biden, Senator Clinton, Senator Dodd, and Senator Obama.

Those 4 Senators vying to lead America but won't or don't have the courage to cast a vote in favor of English as America's official language when 91% of American citizens want English officially designated as our language.

This is the second time in the last several months this list of Senators have disgraced themselves as political hacks... unworthy as Senators and certainly unqualified to serve as President of the United States.

If America is as angry as I am, you will realize a back-lash so stunning it will literally rock you out of your panties... and preferably, totally out of the United States Senate.

The entire immigration bill is a farce... your action only confirms this really isn't about America ; it's about self-serving politics...despicable at best.



"Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ~ anonymous



The following senators voted against making English the official language of America :

Akaka (D-HI)

Bayh (D-IN)

Biden (D-DE) Wants to be President?

Bingaman (D-NM)

Boxer (D-CA)

Cantwell (D-WA)

Clinton (D-NY) Wants to be President?

Dayton (D-MN)

Dodd (D-CT) Wants to be President?

Domenici (R-NM) Coward, protecting his Senate seat...

Durbin (D-IL)

Feingold (D-WI) Not unusual for him

Feinstein (D-CA)

Harkin (D-IA)

Inouye (D-HI)

Jeffords (I-VT)

Kennedy (D-MA)

Kerry (D-MA) Wanted to be President

Kohl (D-WI)

Lautenberg (D-NJ)

Leahy (D-VT)

Levin (D-MI)

Lieberman (D-CT) Disappointment here.....

Menendez (D-NJ)

Mikulski (D-MD)

Murray (D-WA)

Obama (D-IL) Wants to be President?

Reed (D-RI)

Reid (D-NV) Senate Majority Leader

Salazar (D-CO)

Sarbanes (D-MD)

Schumer (D-NY)

Stabenow (D-M)

"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale, and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged."

~ President Abraham Lincoln " Amen "




Please forward to as many people as you know. WE NEED THIS INFORMATION PASSED ON TO EVERY RED-BLOODED AMERICAN!!!!!!

Don't say bye yet! he will be the Dem VP Nomination.

Just curious, what will making English as the official language achieve more than what it already does?

That's some of the stupidest shit I have ever read. I am so utterly saddened to know that I can't have the last minute of my life back from reading that backwards ass cowboy bullshit. My goodness.

That'd be cool. I'm distantly related to him.

I don't know.

Reminds me of a trip through the south, a few years back. Some goober sees my NY license plates and starts right in. It lead right up to his asking, "Dudn't annabody talk English no more?"

Then he introduced me to his wife and sister. The problem was, there was only one woman standing there.

If your family tree doesn't fork, you might be a redneck.

I'm learning towards McCain and Huckabee at the moment. I don't really like anyone else.

I still think it's early, but I'm holding out hope for an Edwards/Obama or Obama/Edwards ticket on the ballot. If not, I'd seriously consider voting for Bloomberg, if he decides to run as an independent. I'd vote for McCain over Clinton, but if it ended up Romney or Huckabee against any ticket with Clinton on it, I really don't know what I'd do.

If it comes down to Romney vs. Clinton I don't know what I'd do.

Bloomberg is someone in the past I would have seriously given my vote too. He's shown he has the smarts and the cajones. Rumors of him being a big time sexist would leave me leary though.

I don't think that'll be much of an issue. I mean, he's won right here in "Carrie Bradshaw" territory twice.

Then again, I'm a guy, so what do I know?

"Carrie Bradshaw" would vote for him as long as he promised her free Jimmy Choo shoes.

Bloomberg Better make a move soon if he is going to do anything. Personally I hope he doesnt run because it will cut into the Democrtic base more than the republican base.

With Rudy mainly running on his 9/11 stance do you think as the current New York Mayor Bloomberg might take Rudy's votes?

What a ridiculous load of garbage. We have real problems facing us and this kind of crap floats aroun to impugn the intgrity of
decent Senators.

Maybe the nut cases who send this stuff around should support funding for Education. If we want people spaking proer English we have a long way to go, and it would start in the schols.

Not to mention that it isn't even correct in stating that it was voting against "English as the official language". It had to do with whether the government would provide access to services in languages other than English.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/englishvote.asp

And now if you excuse me, I have to write a check to advance some funds to the Nigerian Ambassador that emailed me too.

Decent Senators. Is there such a thing?

Touche Miggie

oxyMORONs

My son's high school had a mock election today. Less than half the school voted, but Obama got 249 votes to Hillary's 53, and Edwards finished third with19.

On the Republican side Huckabee edged McCain, followed by Romney.

I can't believe they are swiftboating McCain in S Carolina

The ugliness of campaining has really reached an all-time low. It honestly makes you wonder if it's even worth it.

Kly,

I always find those mock elections fun. I wish they'd do one at my school. It doesn't prove anything of course, but you get a general feel because students usually are influenced by what ever way their parents vote.

The swiftboating/dirty politics has been more low-down the last two election cycles if you ask me. I heard yesterday on the news that South Carolina is especially good at "dirty politics".

To take a veteran/war hero and try to strip him of his honors is dispicable. I am not a McCain supporter, but I hated it when they did it to Kerry and I hate that they are doing it to him. No hero/veteran should have to prove his braveness/heroism IMHO


TIS

Apparently it all stems from some nut job who lost a son in Vietnam and who has all these conspiracy theories that the Vietnamese are still holding U.S Prisoners.

DT,

I don't know if you've been watching MSNBC or CNN but yesterday they said S.C. residents are receiving calls from what they call "push polls" (recorded messages) asking questions such as: Did you know John McCain gave in to the enemy and told them government secrets?" "Would you vote for John McCain?" Can you imagine???? Some people (a lot I think) are really gullible and will buy into this crap.


TIS

Agree or disagree with our actions in Viet Nam, this man did what few were willing to do at the time - put on a uniform and go. To disparage what he did, and the torture that he went through as a POW, is worse than a disgrace.

McCain's war record was viciously smeared in the 2000 primary by Bush's campaign strategists before "swiftboat" became a verb.

And remember when they devised a push poll against John McCain? South Carolina voters were asked "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?". Ha. I have no clue why McCain continued to support Bush. I would have had more respect for McCain if he had kept Bush's feet to the fire for the 2000 campaign deceit.

Lawdy, it would be so funny if it wasn't sad.

You referenced the most deceitful and shameful example of politics in recent memory. Rove later defended this tactic by saying that they never directly accused McCain of fathering an illegitimate black child, but stressed the "if" he fathered a black child illegitimately, would they vote for him. Not only was it unscrupulous and hishonest, but it reinforced racial prejudices.

A shock coming from anyone Bush-administration related?

hillary comes off as such a smuck!

Mark this day on your calendar....January 20, 2009 the Presidential Inauguration.

ONE MORE YEAR OF BUSH!!!!!!!! The countdown begins and can't go fast enough.






TIS

Then you can take that picture of him, that you have hanging over your bed, down.

I think that Bush himself is counting and can't wait!

364 to go!!!


TIS

Will Bush have all that brush cleared by then?

...and the dart board it is attached to.

I received the email today, which is circulating across the country about Obama. In short, it falsely states that Obama went to radical Islamic schools in Asia throughout his youth, sympathizes with Muslim terrorists in the U.S., and refuses to pledge allegiance to the flag. The email repeatedly emphasizes his last name in an attempt to discredit him while playing upon fears and prejudices.

What struck me about this wasn't the content of the email, but its source. It was forwarded to me by the guy, who manages a 401k fund of mine. I would expect someone in his positionto be more educated and wise, and his naivete is giving me concern. The distribution of his email was pretty big, which makes it embarrassing.

Is he next going to use my investments to pay a lawyer in Nigeria to release big money to him that he inherited from an unknown relative killed in a car crash?

The ability of some Americans to swallow the most implausible nonsense is a constant source of amazement to me, but politicians of all stripes count on it.

Not sure I'd trust a guy so gullible with my money.

I am amazed (dumbfounded is a better word) by how so many so-called educated Americans can be deceived by such nonsensical emails.

EDIT: Saladbar just beat me to the punch.

Will you manage my funds?

I'm actually hoping he sent it as a joke, but I don't think so. He knows how to invest, but this is the second thing he did that gave me some doubts about him. During the Y2K hoopla he bought a dozen generators that he was going to sell when the world would lose its power on New Year's Day.

Not to worry Klydon, he just bought a bunch of subprime mortgages...said they were going really cheap, and that he would parlay that into getting you the Brooklyn Bridge.

I got the same email forwarded to me almost 2 weeks ago (from a dumbass, though )

I like how it started with this:

Seems they never actually VISIT Snopes to see for themselves...

Why let facts get in the way of a good story?

DC you think he can count that high?

And with the money left over he bought Jesus' bones.

Yeah, after runs out of fingers and toes he's in trouble.

That debate got so ugly last night, I thought it was Republican.

Last week my daughter (she knows I am into politics these days) sent that exact e-mail to me that she received from a friend of hers. She asked if I thought it was true. Yes, people are so gullible. If anyone saw the debates (not yesterday's but the last one), Obama was asked all those questions by the moderator. He debunked all of them.

He good naturedly answered that he took the oath on a Bible, and that he often "leads" in the Pledge of Allegiance in the Senate. He explained he was Christian and had attended the same church for the last 20 years.

The religion bit makes me think of 1960 when JFK was running for President as the first Catholic. I was about 12 and I remember riding my bike down the street and a couple neighborhood kids, knowing we were Italian/Catholic family, yelled out, "if Kennedy is President, the Pope is gonna move in the White House, and he'll make everyone turn Catholic." I found that quite shocking and really, even at that time couldn't believe people believed that. Although I don't remember exactly what he said he more or less was forced to comment on it and did so in his usual eloquent manner.

As far as the debates last night. Holy canoli!!!!!

TIS

While Kennedy's election took place before I was born, his religion was a big issue, and a significant segment of the voting public feared that a Kennedy presidency would be strongly influenced by the Vatican.

The religion issue came to a head in primary in West Virginia, the state with the highest percentage of Protestants. Kennedy needed a victory there to solidify the nomination and avoid throwing the nomination into the hands of the party bosses. A few weeks before the primary, Humphrey took a 20 point lead, and it was determined that Kennedy's drop in popularity stemmed from the growing realization he was Roman Catholic. He took the issue head on, and invested a lot of time and money explaining his politics and religion. He said something to the effect of "I refuse to believe that I was disqualified from ever being president on the day I was baptized. He won over 60% of the WV vote and, of course, won the primary.

It seems odd to think of the ordeal over the religion issue. Since then, other Catholics have run for office with little, if anything, paid to their beliefs. Catholic candidates have included liberals like Jerry Brown and John Kerry and conservatives like Pat Buchanan and Rudy Giuliani.

Perhaps, so too we are fast approaching the day where gender and race will be of little importance.

I almost fell off my couch last night watching the GOP debate. A republican, Ron Paul, actually had the stones to say something that constantly gets glossed over by war apologists and the so-called war on terror.

I wish I could find the exact wording, but no luck yet. I'm sure it will be on the web later today. In essence, Paul stated that al Qaeda was never in Iraq before we invaded and started the Iraq War. For the past 3.5 years, it's become accepted that al Qaeda has been filtering in due to our horrible ability to stablize the country after the successful and short military victory. Further "blasphemy" from Paul's lips was that there has never been a proven connection between Iraq & 9/11.

I know he has no chance in hell to win, but he is the first republican that I have any respect for in a long, long time. I'm sure he's reviled by the radical right-wing whack jobs like Coulter, Hannity & Limbaugh, and the entire Fox News channel. But I commend Ron Paul for not being afraid to speak the truth even though it goes against everything his party stands for and against what is politically convenient for him to do.

Sounds like someone who has the courage of his convictions. What is he doing in politics???

The media has informed us he is not a "viable candidate," therefore he has no chance.

Given that he says all that, don't you find it interesting that Ron Paul has received more military campaign contributions than any other Republican candidate? Perhaps because most of the troops who have served over there know its a losing battle, Paul is the only Republican who is admitting it.

I did not know that Saladbar, but admittedly have not been following the campaign as much as I did in 2004. Both sides have really turned me off.

My wife is convinced that the Republicans don't care who their nominee is so long as they have Hillary to lash out against. She feels that Hillary will stir up so much hatred from not only conservatives, but from independents and liberals too.

It will be somewhat interesting and definitely another ugly process before it is all said and done.

Your wife is correct. No other candidate can rally the Republican base and right-leaning independents as effectively as Hillary Clinton.

She polarizes the electorate, is hindering the spread of progressive ideas, and believes she needs to fight dirty to win. I will not vote for her in my primary.

I forgot to watch it last night. When is the next debate?

You didn't miss much. It was pretty much a snoozer.

Every time Guiliani is not answering a question but the camera is on him, his facial expressions contort to make him look like a weasel. Nevertheless appropriate...

I can't believe McCain is leading at this point. He let Bush bitch-slap him by branding him a crazy Vietnam POW in 2000, kissed Bush's ass in 2004, and now is running with the premise that he will keep us in Iraq until he deems the war to be over. While I admire McCain's military service, especially compared to the cowards in the administration running the war, I have no respect for McCain for being so spineless when he was attacked by Bush in 2000.

In the end, all of these candidates from both sides are, to me, the lesser of "who cares?"

As a Democrat I think the best and most Electable GOP candidate is McCain. I don't quite understand what Giulini was thinking by ignoring the early states, Romney gives me the creeps (is he human?), and Huckabee is simply not qualified. Paul is amusing but has no chance.

I think Bill and Hillary's tactics are apalling (and that's quite an indictment coming from a lawyer) and divisive. Like
Mike Barnacle said, Hillary looks lke your first wife standing in the docket at the divorce trial. For the Dems, I think its Obama or no one.

McCain is a uniter, and if they run Hillary against him he'd have a great chance to win despite the past 8 years.

McCain has his positive moments, but I think he’s still fighting the Vietnam War. He wants people to believe his argument for success in Iraq, and remains blind to the obvious lack of success to actually be seen in Iraq. He doesn’t even make many arguments for viable situations anymore. His solution is to just keep pouring billions onto the dung heap -- all which dooms us to basically following Bush's disastrous policies for 4 more years (possible 8 more if he lives that long AND thwarts dementia ala Reagan, McCain is OLD).


I'm afraid in November I'll be choosing between a giant douche and a shit sandwich.

And that would be different how???

Great points. I had not considered the Vietnam angle for McCain you mentioned. The last thing we need is someone who may be senile, like you say, following 8 years of a total moron.

In 2004 I had the choice between a bland block of tofu and a double shit sandwich with maggot dressing.

I'd take the tofu...unless there was a special on the sandwich.

I'll take a giant douche or a shit sandwich any day compared to the DICKHEAD we have now.

Sorry, couldn't resist.



TIS

Obama projected winner in South Carolina

Good for him!! He's turning this whole race on its ear. I'm not saying that I would vote for him. I honestly don't know enough about him or what he believes in.

Six months ago, I would have predicted that this would have come down to Clinton and Giuliani. Right now, that's the furthest thing from the truth, isn't it?? I still think that Senator Clinton will give him a run for his money, but I can't see Giuliani coming back.

Will the former Mayor drop out?

We shall see.

I think he'll drop out today.

That's what I heard yesterday. They also said that he was going to announce his support for McCain today. (Maybe he already did, I don't know, cause I just turned on the tv this morning)

TIS

The word on the radio this morning is that he's flying out to CA and will announce that he's dropping out and endorsing McCain at 6 pm.

John Edwards is to announce he's quitting too.

I was wondering about this. His campaign never took off.

John Edwards to Quit Presidential Race

By NEDRA PICKLER
Associated Press Writer
DENVER (AP) -- Democrat John Edwards is exiting the presidential race Wednesday, ending a scrappy underdog bid in which he steered his rivals toward progressive ideals while grappling with family hardship that roused voters' sympathies but never diverted his campaign, The Associated Press has learned.

The two-time White House candidate notified a close circle of senior advisers that he planned to make the announcement at a 1 p.m. EST event in New Orleans that had been billed as a speech on poverty, according to two of his advisers. The decision came after Edwards lost the four states to hold nominating contests so far to rivals who stole the spotlight from the beginning - Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama.

The former North Carolina senator will not immediately endorse either candidate in what is now a two-person race for the Democratic nomination, said one adviser, who spoke on a condition of anonymity in advance of the announcement.

Edwards waged a spirited top-tier campaign against the two better-funded rivals, even as he dealt with the stunning blow of his wife's recurring cancer diagnosis. In a dramatic news conference last March, the couple announced that the breast cancer that she thought she had beaten had returned, but they would continue the campaign.

Their decision sparked a debate about family duty and public service. But Elizabeth Edwards remained a forceful advocate for her husband, and she was often surrounded at campaign events by well-wishers and emotional survivors cheering her on.

Edwards planned to announce his campaign was ending with his wife and three children at his side. Then he planned to work with Habitat for Humanity at the volunteer-fueled rebuilding project Musicians' Village, the adviser said.

With that, Edwards' campaign will end the way it began 13 months ago - with the candidate pitching in to rebuild lives in a city still ravaged by Hurricane Katrina. Edwards embraced New Orleans as a glaring symbol of what he described as a Washington that didn't hear the cries of the downtrodden.

Edwards burst out of the starting gate with a flurry of progressive policy ideas - he was the first to offer a plan for universal health care, the first to call on Congress to pull funding for the war, and he led the charge that lobbyists have too much power in Washington and need to be reigned in.

The ideas were all bold and new for Edwards personally as well, making him a different candidate than the moderate Southerner who ran in 2004 while still in his first Senate term. But the themes were eventually adopted by other Democratic presidential candidates - and even a Republican, Mitt Romney, echoed the call for an end to special interest politics in Washington.

Edwards' rise to prominence in politics came amid just one term representing North Carolina in the Senate after a career as a trial attorney that made him millions. He was on Al Gore's short list for vice president in 2000 after serving just two years in office. He ran for president in 2004, and after he lost to John Kerry, the nominee picked him as a running mate.

Elizabeth Edwards first discovered a lump in her breast in the final days of that losing campaign. Her battle against the disease caused her husband to open up about another tragedy in their lives - the death of their teenage son Wade in a 1996 car accident. The candidate barely spoke of Wade during his 2004 campaign, but he offered his son's death to answer questions about how he could persevere when his wife could die.

Edwards made poverty the signature issue of both his presidential campaigns, and he led a four-day tour to highlight the issue in July. The tour, the first to focus on the plight of the poor since Robert F. Kennedy's trip 40 years earlier, also was an effort to remind voters that a rich man can care about the less fortunate. It came as Edwards was dogged by negative coverage of his personal wealth, including his construction of a 28,000-square foot house, his work for a hedge fund that advised the superrich and $400 haircuts.

But even through the dark days of summer and as Obama and Clinton collected astonishing amounts of money that dwarfed his fundraising effort, Edwards maintained a loyal following in the first voting state of Iowa that made him a serious contender. He came in second to Obama in Iowa, an impressive feat of relegating Clinton to third place, before coming in third in the following three contests.

The loss in South Carolina was especially hard because it was where he was born and he had won the state in 2004. But Edwards performed well enough to pick up 58 delegates.

If only Hillary will drop out.

She would rather set herself on fire than do that.

Really, her bullshit down in South Carolina.....I tell ya, alot of leftists finally saw the woman that many of us had known of for years and years.

She's just a total bitch.

What did she do in South Carolina? I didn't watch any coverage last night.

I'm assuming RR is referring to her getting teary-eyed/choked up on camera.

I'm glad Guiliani is done, even if it's not official yet. He grossly miscalculated his political capital and paid for not campaigning in New Hampshire & Iowa. He was good for NY and did an admirable job in the days after 9/11, but would have been a poor president IMO.

Edwards should not have run either. If he had been in the Senate since the '04 election, it would have bolstered his reputation. But he is just as inexperienced as he was in 2004.

Unfortunately for Edwards, I think his wife's sickness had a lot to do with his lack of support. She's not just sick; she's dying. And I don't think that anyone wanted to take a chance on putting someone in the White House who either recently lost his wife or was about to lose her.

I know that sounds cold, but I think it's true.

She has Stage 4 metastatic breast cancer and will probably die within 2 years or so.

I like a lot about Edwards. I think he is an honest individual who might be a good leader. But there was always a bigger part of me that thought he should just go home and take care of the wife for the rest of her short life. Especially since he is probably rich enough to put his life on hold and be with her.

So now look who's left to choose from. I think people are just sick of the Clintons, I just don't know about Obama and his experience and his beleifs. I think he's very young to be president.
Then for the Republicans, you have McCain who I do repect and Romney, who I just don't think Americans are going to elect a Mormon to the whitehouse.

I don't think that they are all together sick of her she keeps winning these primaries.

So is anyone at all watching the Republican debates tonight???? This is their third or fourth debate I think????? Pretty much lowkey compared to the Dem debates I think.



TIS

I'm not a big Presidential historian, but I'm afraid the Democrats will end up spliting support between Clinton and Obama and the eventual ticket will be weak. In the end they will lose to the Republicans. It remains to be seen who will be on the ticket, but back in '84 it was Mondale and Ferraro, and together they just didn't have the power to overcome Reagan.

I wish I knew that it was on cuz as of now I have no idea who I want to win.

I didn't watch all of this one, but it's on CNN. They usually replay it though. Check your listings for the time. The Dem debate is on tomorrow.


TIS

What time TIS?

Wow, I didn't know his wife was that sick. I actually like Edwards- but you are right, he should devote his time to his wife. He couldn't possibly be a good president with that on his shoulders. I always wondered why he didn't really get the support he deserved.

Mig,

Tonight's debate was 5:00 to 7:00 (Pacific Standard Time). I don't know about tomorrow's. I usually find it when I get home, but I'm guessing around the same time.


TIS

Grazie TIS!!

Personally I don't want to vote for someone who doesn't realize the thing to do in this situation is take care of your wife instead of trying to run for POTUS

That and the Clinton clique's sillyness.....where they basically put down the idea at black voters that a black candidate "can't win"....and well, they sorta disagreed in South Carolina.

McCain is booked as the GOP nominee, but damn...this report won't help him:

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/democrats-say-mccain-nearly-abandoned-gop-2007-03-28.html

Where's DoubleJ, when you need him, to go ballistic that his soon-to-be champion considered jumping brands this side of Hulk Hogan.

If hillary becomes president I dont know if i can listen to that voice for the next 4 years!

ds

If Hillary becomes President will she give out douche bags as tax breaks instead of a check?

Interesting article on the Delegate distribution process for the Democrats.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/03/MNE1UOVB1.DTL

What, you prefer autistic country bumpkin's voice instead? Please.

Super Tuesday Political Dashboard:

http://news.yahoo.com/election/2008/dashboard/?d=ST

Thanks Geoff. I find the Democrats delegate distribution so confusing. You can win the state but the delegates are split.

Anyway, what an exciting primary no???? Last I heard California won't have any final counts tonight due to some voting machine problems and absentee votes or such?????? Not sure really.





TIS

There seemed to be a lot of problems with voting machines throughout the country. I heard on the radio that Governor Corzine of NJ had to wait 45 minutes for a technician to fix his machine when it jammed this morning. And in NYC, when they tried to switch the machines from Democrat to Republican (and conversely), the machines would get stuck, and the people had to be given paper ballots.

I voted an absentee ballot this time, so avoided any problems. However, the last election I did encounter a problem. It was a touch screen, I went thru the process (this included California propositions as well, so I read through them, again even though I already did some studying) and then clicked "submit vote" and the machine totally went dark/dead.

I called the poll worker who fiddled with the machine and couldn't fix it. (I was pissed actually because I had heard about voting problems throughout the U.S.). She made a phone call to her superior and did some tweaking while on the phone, per the supervisor's suggestions, and it still didn't work. It took them about a half an hour before they finally told me to go to another machine, which I did and had no problem.


TIS

So who all voted today?

I don't vote till March 3rd.

I have to wait until late April. I think the nominees will be determined by then. Pennsylvania primaries are usually in May, and I never missed one, but I don't believe I ever voted in one where the race hadn't already been determined.

The Maryland primary isn't until the 12th, but I'll have already moved to California by then. I'll have to vote absentee.

Better get that ballot done quickly. From what I remember, absentee ballots have to be submitted prior to the election date.

I've been known to procrastinate.

Although they are not showing numbers yet, they are saying that the California numbers are "too close to call" for both Dems and Reps.


TIS

Looks like a death match between Hillary and Obama.

Can one of you conservatives out there explain to me why many on the right hate McCain so much?

Because conservatives are just a hateful bunch?

It kills them that McCain is the one Republican that most Democrats can live with.

McCain looks like he's pulling ahead.

He would get my vote, but he's so gung ho for this war it scares me. We may never leave.

Obama winning Connecticut is much bigger news than Hillary carrying any of the big states. For the delegate count to be so close, even after she carried New York, California and Massacheusetts, it shows the momentum clearly in his favor. However, if it comes down to superdelegates, she'll be tough to beat.

Obama or McCain, I could really live with either one.

Agreed PB, I could live with Obama or McCain although I hope to be voting for Obama in November. Hillary and Bill need to go home and shut up.

How embarrassing is it for Kennedy that he endorces Obamba and Hillary takes Mass.?

Not terribly. Obama was down about 30 points and the Kennedy endorsement made it a lot closer.

Obama may have lost the key states but he made one helluva showing. The key may now be the state of Ohio.

God help us.

You mean God help us if he doesn't win right SC?

Well I hope your canidate gets the nom. then. I would be ticked if they had the nominees already and I didn't get to vote for the person I wanted.

From what I heard on tv that the douche bag is getting the Latino and Asian vote. Obamba better reach out to these people if he wants the nom.

I respectfully disagree, Mig. While she may still be leading among Latinos and Asians, I think the momentum is clearly in his favor. None of the remaining states rely on absentee voting as much as some of the states from "Super Tuesday" did.

I just watched a "man-in-the-street" type interview with some people who cast early ballots for Clinton last month, and a whopping 60% stated that they would probably have changed their vote to Obama given the chance. That stat alone does not bode well for her. When you couple that with the fact that he now has most of the money behind him, I can't see her catching him.

Don Tomasso is right, they need to go home and shut up.

I was just saying that is what I heard on tv. I'm sure she is getting the women vote also.

Anyone but Hillary '08

Hillary is out of money!

Just when Obama raised $32 million. Hee!

Mitt Romney is expected to announce he's ending his presidential bid.

Wow!

I guess it's a one man Republican field now.

Mitt Romney plans to drop out of the presidential race Thursday, according to Mark Halperin’s The Page blog for Time Magazine.

Halperin says three sources have confirmed that the former Massachusetts governor will drop out as early as this afternoon, when he addresses the Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington, D.C.

“The race was mathematically and politically mostly over before now,” Halperin told FOX News, citing McCain’s wide lead in the race for delegates to the national convention.
Romney has steadily lost ground over the past few weeks to McCain, who since Super Tuesday made a comeback for Romney extremely difficult.

Click here to read The Page blog on Romney quitting the race.

Don't worry she'll raise more. She'll just have the NY Govenor to raise the NY taxes.

WSJ online just confirmed... Romney is out.

Imagine those bug eyes looking up at you?

Uuuuugggggggggggggghhhhhh!!!!

Disgusting DC!

I dunno if she can match Obama. There are reports that all her sources are tapped out, and his are not. Don't forget her whole strategy was to wrap this thin up by last Tuesday and it didn't happen.

And how will it help her campaign if the Governor raises taxes??

Imagine having those lips on your face?

Yes Mig, your comment also has me wondering what the GOVERNOR of New York raising taxes has to do with her campaign?

You know something about her and GOVERNOR SPITZER that we don't?

CLINTON MONEY

He looks chummier with Bill than Hillary in this photo.

I seen that too.

Obama has raised another $7 million since Super Tuesday!

In the best of all worlds an Obama vs. McCain match up would present the country with a choice between two philosophies, but IMHO more importantly, two decent, capable candidates. For once we wont have to choose the lesser of two evils.

I was just kidding I guess I forgot to add the smiley. MY BAD!!!!

This is what I am hoping for.

Well everyone I know, Dems and Reps, all have a great hatred for Clinton. the only people I think like her are bra burning, butch haircut, unshaven feminist.

A few of them are turning on her as well.

Well there must be alot of bra burning, butch haircut, unshaven feminist's out there cuz she's ahead in the delegate count. Not by much though.

I just don't understand what McCain did that so angers Republicans and makes him more likeable to liberals. Yes, he has a habit of using non-conservative rhetoric to promote his "independent maverick" image, but when you compare deeds to rhetoric, he's quite conservative and on some issues more conservative than many neocons.

That's it. He doesn't use the pejorative rhetoric that someone like Coultergeist uses. Besides, she's pissed at him because his Adam's Apple is bigger than hers.

As probably one of only a few political geeks here these days, has anyone else been following this "delegate" issue with the Democratic caucus'/primaries?

If so, what do you think? If I understand correctly, having an early primary made the Dem nominess forfeit their delegates in Michigan and Florida. The Dem candidates agreed beforehand they couldn't campaign in Fla/Mich and that the delegates would NOT be counted, in essence neither would gain anything from the votes in those states. I know that neither Obama and Edwards didn't even have their names on the Michigan ballot.

Now, with this race getting tighter and tighter, rumor has it that whoever would have the most to gain, delegate-wise, from both super delegates and the MI/Fla delegates may request that theses two states be counted. Anyone who knows anything, can they do that????? It seems, because all were aware of it beforehand, that getting down to the wire, they can suddenly say "make it count", doesn't seem fair at all.



TIS

Let me add this too. I'm hearing all these commentators saying it would be awful if it came down to the super delegates being the deciding factor on the Dem. side. Granted, it would be, however even Howard Dean thinks they should "work something out" meaning/implying one of the two should step down before it gets to that point. I say WTF???? The party made the rules. They can come up with the right solution. I can't believe either candidate would say "oh, ok, I'll be the big person, I'll step down." Why should they if it's that close?

Ok, that's my political rant for now.

TIS, my brother and I were just discussing the super delegates (do they have tights and capes??). He feels that if they do end up deciding the race, that will alienate the supporters of the candidate who didn't get the nomination and could spoil the entire race for the Dems.

I think your brother is absolutely right, SB. I know some Obama supporters who have come to loathe Hillary as much as the conservatives do. And I'm sure it's vice-versa.

Mitt Romney and the Douchebag vote

I don't understand what super delegates are.

If its Hillary/McCain for November....McCain will win by a squeaker in yet another bitter-election.

If its Obama/McCain....Obama will win. I am that sure.

Interesting statement. Why do you feel Obama would do better than Hillary?

That's pretty much what TIME magazine stated this week. McCain leads Hillary by 4 points head-to-head. Conversely, Obama leads McCain by 7 points hed-to-head.

Obama's victory margins were huge this weekend. I think the momentum and the fact that he now has more money will carry him to the nomination.

A year ago, who would have predicted that Giuliani would be out of the race and Hillary would be so threatened?

It certainly will be interesting.

Obama is speaking at the 1st Mariner Arena here in downtown Baltimore at 2:30. I work 2 blocks from there. It is going to be a traffic nightmare. I might skip out of here early to beat the crazy people.

Obama certainly has a lot of momentum. He'll probably carry the three races tomorrow.

What impresses me most about his candidacy is that for a relative newcomer, he's winning races in every region of the nation.

(1) Massive amounts of Americans fucking HATE Hillary...and I don't just mean the GOP. A reason why Obama has so much heat within the Democratic Party is because, with Edwards out, he's the sole anti-Clinton...or anti-party establishment...There are Democrats who want someone besides Hillary, and Obama Your Mama just might be the man.

(2) if Hillary is the nominee, and she runs that schtick of wanting to "clean up" the Bush White House....not many Americans will buy it, since Dubya got into the Oval Office partly because he campaigned in wanting to "clean up" the scandal-ridden Clinton White House.

Hillary/McCain will be a shitty election because its two uninspiring candidates that's like choosing between a gun shot and a stabbing wound. It'll be a very close election, with liberals forced to back a woman who's practically become a Republican, and conservatives biting the bullet and back McCain if simply to stop Hillary.

In other words, 2000 and 2004 again...its like that SOUTH PARK episode, who to vote between Douchebag and Turd Sandwich?

McCain will win, by a squeaker.

(3) BUT if its Obama/McCain...there is a reason why the GOP really fucking fear the black dude.

With more cash, and more general mojo behind his Fascist-esque Army, Obama can cast himself as the young "outsider" rebel fighting against the "Old Man of Washington" in McCain(who's what, 72?) and really...here is a dirty little secret:

Conservatives don't get as pissed off or riled up at Obama as they are with Hillary. Yeah, they may hate his liberal politics, but its not like they personally despise him, like the GOP do with the Clinton Clique.

(4) Remember the 1992 Election? Bill Clinton the young Baby-Boomer "inexperienced" draft dodger beat out the old "experienced" WW2 veteran George H.W. Bush...and Obama/McCain may very well be a repeat of this.

(5) If its Hillary/McCain, think 1976. Two candidates that don't inspire the nation in Ford/Carter*

(6) The GOP is taking notes of how Hillary Clinton's campaign has tried to paint Obama as "inexperienced" and a "black candidate" and yet all those attacks have fucking backfired...with the Clintons actually alienating a good number of their long-time black supporters. Obama's fuckin Superman at this rate, and Hillary's argument that Obama won't stand up to the GOP Smear Machine....seems more and more quaint.

Again, thats my thoughts.

*=People forget that African-Americans were fucking lukewarm with Carter, former Governor of Georgia that was buds with former Segregationist chronies. Some argue that if Ford had kept Rockefeller (liberal Republican that blacks at least tolerated) as VP, Ford could have won that election by a squeaker.

The Clinton campaign can't believe that this cockroach won't just die, but grow and grow...

From them getting fucking blanked on Saturday to losing Maine yesterday, and polls predicting the Potamic region to become fellow Obamaniacs* tomorrow, and Hawaii(Obama's home turf) another safe-pin....

There is no coincidence that Hillary's campaign manager got fired...err, "resigned"....

A question is, can Hillary afford to lose all the Potamic states after the Weekend Massacre for them?

*=Hulk Hogan endorsed Obama. Whatcha gonna do brother, when Obamania runs wild on ya?

Anyone see Hillary on 60 Minutes last night? She is panicking.

I don't want to be mean, but she has aged ten years in the last 2 months. She looks tired, old and very worried.

She and her people 6 months ago seriously believed the Nomination was fuck-guaran-teed after New Hampshire, but now...anytime they tried to do something, Obama counter-acts. Anytime that Hillary's people try to pimp good news, Obama outdoes them.*

*=Take Saturday. Hillary's people made a big deal of how 100,000 different people donated to her campaign. Obama's campaign shot back with a staggering 350,000.

I think they overreacted to the "pimp" remark on MSNBC. Hey, I'm all for protecting your own, especially family, but the Democratic Party is built around freedom of the press. You can't have it both ways.

Complete overreaction. Chelsea is an adult now, not th kid who got the privacy she deserved When Bill was in the White House.
Hillary is secretive, and cannot take criticism, and with her everythig has to be a fight. I have been on Bush's case for this kind of behavior for 8 years, and I see little difference between her and him.

Let's have a pity party 1-2-3 Aww.

I saw somewhere that her staff is terrified to tell her if she doesn't do well in Texas and Ohio she is going to lose. She is really pissed off that this young upstart has the nerve to interrupt her coronation.

I don't think anyone has to tell her. She knows.

I haven't seen any polls recently for March 4 (not that they've been entirely accurate), but a few weeks ago Hillary had leads in those states and PA, but I'm sure it's tightened.

Well I know of 2 votes she won't get in Ohio.

Pennsylvania doesn't come around until April, but as usual, my wife and I will probably be cancelling each other out in the Democratic primary.

Her instistence that things will turn in Ohio and Texas is starting to sound eerily familiar to Rudy saying, Let's see what happens in Florida.

Are either of these "winner take all" states? If not I think she is in deep trouble.

I just came back from voting. They were worried that the foul weather would be keeping the voters away. Heck, Maryland has lousy election turn outs if it's sunny and 80 degrees.

But it was sad that there were only 2 pollsters working where I was at. And they were campaigning for the same person. Where are all the people shoving a leaflet in my face. I was very let down.

I remember when I turned 18 and could start to vote, I was so excited. I remember when I was younger my mom and sisters would go to vote. You'd see some friends and neighbors at the polling place, and you'd talk while you all waited in line. They would serve coffee and snacks while you waited. I felt so great when I was part of the grown up crowd and could hang with them doing our civic duty. Now you go in there's no line, and about 3 judges, and at least one is always free. It took me all of 6 minutes from coming in to leaving.

God help us Hillary is coming to the Ohio Valley sometime this week.

They've extended the polling closing time from 8:00 to 9:30 in Maryland due to the bad weather.

I never really understood this. The weather is not gonna get better in 1 1/2 hour. The last thing I want to do in freezing rain is driving somewhere at 9:30 at night.

When I was 18, I voted for the first time, but it wasn't a presidential election year. My first vote was cast for Alan Ertel for governor. He lost. 20 years later he was the attorney on the opposite side of a case we had. He lost again.

I think if he spots you again he's gonna walk on the other side of the street. You're worse than a bad penny.

I should add he didn't have a shot either time. In the election Dick Thornburgh was very popular, and in the case he didn't have good facts to win. I would like to say that it was great lawyering that won the day, but it wasn't. He was by far the better advocate. I just happened to have the facts and the law on my side.

Obama won the Potamic Primaries in a smackdown fashion. Indeed, this is getting closer to happening...

Talk about an exciting race. Obama won big in today's primaries too. I can only imagine Hillary is saying to herself, "where the hell did he come from?" Just a few months ago we were all wondering who our choices would be.

EDIT: I heard tonight that "if" the contenders end up being Obama and McCain, that it will be the largest age difference between two Presidential candidates ever. McCain is 72 and Obama 42 (or 44?). Anyway, we're talking two different generations.


TIS

Obama is 46, but yes you might be correct about that wide age-gap.....

and thats something McCain will have to struggle against, for you can already hear the jokes:

"McCain is so old, he pisses dust."

David Wilhelm----Bill Clinton's 1992 campaign chief, just announced he's backing Obama. She's also lost some support in the Latino community, here in New York, for parting ways with her top Hispanic advisor.

The wheels are coming off this thing!

She is keeping up a good front, but Hillary has to know that is BAD. Obama now leads in delegates, although not by much. And I don't think that Texas is going her way. My nephew lives down there, and he says that she is DESPISED.

As I said earlier, 6 or 8 months ago, who would have imagined that Giuliani would be out and Hillary would be 2nd??

And last night, she lost out among her "bread and butter."

He took 60% of the female vote.

He took 52% of the elderly vote.

He took 51% of the white vote.

He took 59% of the voters making less than $50,000 a year.

Oh, he also took 53% of the Latino vote, which she was really counting on.

The black vote, well, just 81%.

Texas is Bush country, so no surprise that they despise her there.

Last I saw, she was still holding a lead in Texas and Ohio.

She is coming to Youngstown, Ohio tomorrow. I live about 15-20 minutes from Youngstown. But do you think I'm going out in this cold to see that douchebag? HELL NO!!!!

I have a strong feeling Obama will be our next president.

It'll be a glorious day.

I wish I knew enough about what he believes in to make a statement like that. All I know is that he's for "Change". Quite frankly, after this last administration, that just might be enough of a reason.

If Clinton was the underlying topic of the 2000 election, Bush will be the underlying topic of the 2008 election.

And he's scoring 30% approval as we speak.

Watch for the eventual Democratic nominee (I am hoping for Obama) to talk about the "failed Bush-McCain" policies at every opportunity.

I can't stand the guy, I'd like to give him a dry enema with jagged pieces of glass, so don't get me wrong, but do you remember right after 9/11, he had the highest approval rating ever?

He really should be an inspiration to us all. That a man as stupid as he is could attain the highest office in the free world, it gives us all a chance to achieve our goals.

PB please tell us whatyou REALLY think! At least that smirk has been wiped off his face.

I do have a habit of sugarcoating things.

Those darned Jesuits at Fordham turned me into a softy.

That post made my day.

:Bravo!:

Anyway, while the media says Hillary's campaign is as dead as fried chicken, I still believe that she's Hitler 1945, where if she doesn't win, she would take her party down kicking, screaming, and burning.

If Obama indeed finishes with more delegates, but Hillary's superdelegates gets her the nomination.....there will be hell to pay.

And McCain would brush the sweat off his forehead.

If Hillary is the nominee, which I don't think she will be, I would vote for her. She is not the greatest person the Dems could run out there, but if she does not get the nomination, she will not hurt the party. If nothing else, Bill Clinton will not let her.

I think she is as surprised as anybody about what Barak Obama has done so far. This was her chance and it does not look like it will happen. Here in Ohio, she is trailing Obama in the most recent poll for the March 4 primary.

John McCain has much reason to sweat. He's 70 years old, is the clear cut nominee, and still has to overcome a fair amount of hatred from his own party. Should he somehow overcome the doubting independents and conservatives, he still has to face the tidal wave of support Obama has been garnering.

I saw that poll, Goombah, he's actually leading Ohio now. If he wins any of those big three (Texas, Pennsylvania, Ohio), it's all over.

Will it be over for her even with her super delegates?

I agree Goombah, but let me say that I am hearing Hillary has a double digit lead in Ohio. Yet Obama people just arrived there and I think the difference will get tighter.

http://www.usaelectionpolls.com/2008/ohio.html

I have real issues with these superdelegates. I hope it doesn't go that far, but it just may. It's been such an unusually close (and exciting) primary process that I wouldn't call anyone a winner yet (well as far as the Dems go, I think it's safe to assume McCain is the Rep). I just think that Clinton was not expecting the competition she's getting with Obama.

TIS

For the past couple of days I've been seeing a Obamba commercial but I haven't seen any Hillary commercials. (Not that it bothers me)

I heard that Bill Clinton is a super delegate. Isn't that biased?

I think Hillary is far from dead in this election. Obamamania is quite impressive, but the Clintons, love them or hate them, are battled tested on the campaign trail. I'm certainly no big fan of Hillary, but she is sharp and will battle to the end, and Bill was as good a campaigner we've seen, and rose from his own ashes more times than I can remember.

I believe as of this date, though, that either Obama or Hillary would whip McCain's ass in November.

See, I disagree about Bubba Clinton but either way Hillary/McCain would be a bitter as hell campaign where the American people pick between touching dog shit and horse shit, a gun shot or a knife stabbing, etc.

I just think if Obama gets the Democratic nomination, he will have an easier time to defeat McCain if only because McCain for the GOP right now is Kerry 2004 (and that's not in a good way) and with McCain's age.....yup.

BTW, did anyone read that DNC dirt sheet that's been circulating around about Obama's VP/Cabinet politicking?

Considering that Hillary's campaign blew most of its $120+ million budget before Super Tuesday.....

Yeah, she underestimated that black kid...and how dare he step out of the black party storm trooper division and try to wrest her birthright to Democratic dominance?

I have seen conflicting polls. One I saw locally said Obama was up, but the others said Hillary was still leading comfortably in Ohio. I think that it will be very close in the polls by the time the primary voting is held.

John Lewis, a black Georgia congressman, announced today that although he backed Clinton, he will pledge his superdelegate vote to Obama. David Scott, another black Georgia dem, did the same earlier this week. This may encourage other black superdelegate voters to do the same.

Just to catch him in the pledged delegate count, she'd have to take two thirds of the overall vote in the states she's counting on. Couple this with the potential superdelegates switching over to Obama and I think it's all over. It seems to me the rats are already jumping off the ship.

I'll tell you one thing. If he wins the pledged delegate count and they try to hand her the nomination anyway, it will set race relations in this country back 50 years. I'll quit the democratic party and register as an independent the very same day.

Here's a Link

I agree that the polls definitely will tighten as the time approaches, and if things stay as they are, I'm guessing even if Hillary wins, it'll be razor close. I don't dislike Hillary either, and yet part of me has to laugh, not just at her, but myself and all of the media for assuming she had it locked up. You never know what's gonna throw you off your mark. She's gotta be reeling!!!!!

Yes, I heard about the Georgia Congressman "turning" and also, FWIW, Obama in his campaign speech, says that he's had republicans come up to him saying they are voting for him. Also, listening to C-Span callers, and reading blogs (fwiw) I've heard/read how some Republicans are going with Obama. True or not, I have to admit, that Obama gives off a sensation of excitement inspires a hope that I haven't felt since both JFK and RFK. There's definitely something going on politically speaking, regardless how this plays out. I am assuming that many are just fed up and willing to put change above experience.

TIS

The Constitution offers no provisions requiring primary elections. In fact, the Constitution doesn't address political parties. Before 1912 the political parties selected their nominees at national conventions, attended by delegates, who were selected at state conventions. The selection of delegates and ultimately nominees was done in smoke filled rooms where party bosses and other leaders made promises and exerted influence.

A western state (I forget which one -Oregon or Washington) was the first to allow for an election to allow for the selection of delegates. The system evolved and each state has their own delegate requirements from "winner take all" to committed and open delegates. The evolution of the primary system maintains the national convention, which largely has become superfluous, and would be only necessary if neither candidate had a majority of delegates.

When I vote in a primary, I always reserve my delegate votes for those, who are committed to the candidate I'm supporting. I could never understand how people could vote for non-committed delegates. I remember the controversy in 1980 when Ted Kennedy trailed Carter in delegates during their primary, and he and others were pushing for an open convention that would have freed up all the delegates, and changed the rules in the middle of the game.

But I agree with pizzaboy that if Obama has a majority (not just a plurality) of the delegates going into the convention, and Clinton leaves the convention as the nominee, there will be hell to pay.

Change above experience?

With all respect, TIS, where is her experience?

She wasn't President, she was First Lady, and I use the term lady very loosely.

Now they are going after Obama because he is a good orator. Truth is he's got as many 5 point plans on his website as anyone, and furthermore nobody pays a damn bit of attention tho that wonkish stuff anyway. The three people who insisted on droning on and on about these things were MOndale, Gore and Dukakis, and look where it got them. On the other hand the best orators of the last half Century were JFK Reagan, and Bill Clinton, and love 'em or not, they were more effective leaders than the non orators like Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter.

PB,

You're right, let me rephrase (I think I'm a victim of the media spin, because I agree, First Lady is NOT experience) Let me put it this way, it's perceived that she has experience because in some loose way she was "in the loop" and married to a President and people are perceiving that as experience. Get my drift? But again, I do agree with you and often wonder why people think First Lady is a qualification for President.

TIS

Gotcha' lady!

Her experience is:

1) Destroying the reputations and lives of any woman who dared come forward with allegations of sexual impropriety by Bill.

2) Holding grudges for years against real and perceived enemies.

3) Blowing the chance to get Universal Health care for America when a Democrat was in the White House and Controlled the congress, due largely to her stubbornness and sercretiveness.

She is a female Nixon.

Best post in this thread yet!

I admit to being a political geek these days. I watch a lot of cable political news, have watched most of the debates (on both sides) and read quite a few blogs and political sites. So, based only on that, a few observations:

1. Dems who support Obama, will also be ok with Hillary should she get the nomination. However, for the most part, those who support Clinton do nothing but trash Obama and say they won't vote at all or they'll go with McCain. Lots of anger there.

2. I also wonder, from what I've read, if many of the ladies (especially in my age group) that are of the "woman's lib" generation, are perhaps favoring Clinton because she is female. When truth is, I am pleased to see that we are ready for either a female and/or black President, even if they don't win this time around.

3. Listening to NPR last week as they were interviewing foreign dignitaries from Germany & Russia (sorry, don't remember names). Both were saying how their countries are totalling following this election as well. They are fascinated by Obama, and Germany couldn't see the big deal of a woman leader, as their Chancellor is female. They both said they heard in both Clinton/Obama's speeches how "American is broken" and both asked what they meant by that and wanted them to elaborate. Interesting for sure. Since these countries will be dealing with America, and since we are not very well liked right now, I can imagine they have a legitimate interest.

TIS

I am not too sure about this because Billary have pissed off a lot of his supporters by playing the race card and being dismissivle of his accomplishments in life. He has been nothing but a gentleman and they have not played nicely at all. I think Obama people may stay home if its McCain v. Clinton. Bottom line is moderate Dems are not threatened by McCain and may not be moved to go out and vote against him.

I would do the same thing, Pizzaboy, but I do not think that it will come down to that. The last thing the Democrats want is a controversy of their own making during the election. It would be as bitter as Bush v. Gore in 2000. If one candidate is leading, unless it's by 1-10 delegates, I feel that the superdelegates will not go against the will of the primary voters.

Yeah, sorry TIS, I tend to agree with DT on this.

I'll cite myself as the example. As I stated earlier, I'm a lifelong democrat, who really considers himself a moderate, because I have a conservative side as well as a liberal. I'm with Obama all the way, and should he lose the nomination to party shenanigans, I'm voting for McCain.

Now, from a second generation, New York City born democrat, I think that's a pretty strong statement. And I should tell you, I'm not the only Obama supporter that feels that way around here. McCain is much more liberal than Hillary in some areas, and in my opinion, a truly better person. Besides, that butthole Rush Limbaugh doesn't like him. That makes him okay in my book.

I don't know. Hillary has recently pissed off people with the race card yes. I am hoping not to have to make the decision, but I still think I'd take her to McCain. I don't want 100 more years in Iraq and he seems a bit to anxious to "bomb bomb bomb Iran", as he once said. Not to mention him saying, "there WILL be more wars." Doesn't sit well with me at all. Then, that's my opinion.


TIS

There are so many issues at hand! We've all become complacent after September 11th that it's scary.

Would I vote for McCain? I don't know. I think he's a decent man, which is saying a lot. But damn he's old. My mom moved in with us when she was 70. And it was astounding to see how she declined physically in those first 8 years. She's a toughie, and I can't imagine her trying to keep up with that schedule. Could he? I think it's doubtful. And what if he develops dementia or Alzheimer's? It's not out of the realm of possibility.

As for Hillary, I think that she's a smart and aggressive woman, and those are things that people don't like. They're talking about Obama's oratorical skills, which are HUGE, but she's no slouch in that department either. I do think that her role as First Lady would help with foreign relations as it relates to diplomacy, but I don't know what else that has gotten her.

Obama's oratorical skills are so amazing his accent changes depending on who he's talking to. Weird if you ask me.

It's freezing here. It's the sort of weather that, no matter what you're doing, your limbs are always cold.

Well, I'm with you there. I don't want to be in that position either. I just hope it's a clear cut nomination either way. Again, I'd vote for McCain over Clinton, but not if he picks an ultra-conservative, redneck running mate.

Time will tell.

I will take an early guess at McCain's running mate: Mitt Romney.

It's too early for me to guess a VP for Clinton or Obama.

I think there's a good chance it could be Clinton or Obama.

I dunno. If you're Obama, do you want Bill Clinton living in the White House second guesssing you?

Well, they were asked the question at their last debate, and the response from the audience was overwhelming.

I loved Obama's response: There's a big difference between Obama/Clinton and Clinton/Obama.

But they both seemed open to the idea.

I think Clinton would strongly consider Obama as a VP. If she wins the nomination, this would be a tough ticket to beat as Democrats will hit the polls in record numbers.

When Obama said that Hillary would be on a short list of VP running mates for him, I think he was honest. I would speculate that he may have some concerns about a high profile figure, married to a two term former president when he himself is the relative newcomer. Still, it would likely be a formidable ticket.

Just my opinion of course, but I think Obama might agree to be Hillary's VP, but I have a feeling Hillary wouldn't want to be VP to Obama. I just see her as a "all or nothing", either she's President or not.


TIS

Yeah, that makes sense, TIS. It would be awful hard, after 8 years in the White House, to go back there as second fiddle.

Since many feel that VP is a springboard to the Presidency, I'm not so sure if Hillary would object.

Either way, it would certainly unite the party.

She'd be 69 after two Obama terms, which is almost as old as McCain is now.

So, she's almost 60? Well, then I think she looks pretty good for her age.

She turned 60 last October.

Or do you want Bill in the White House bringing in more interns?

Give me a break. Clinton did more good while diddling interns than Bush could have ever hoped to do. Bush has accelerated the process of putting the country in the sorry shape that its in, from our terrible economy to Bush's single-handedly has been the biggest world-wide anti-U.S. terrorist recruiter with his ridiculous foreign policy decisions.

I agree with TIS. Hillary's ego could not handle being vice president at this point in her life.

That would explain Mitt dropping out early, but man, I hope it isn't true.

Another thing...Of course if Clinton wins we know Bill will be "helping." However, if Obama gets elected, I think he should have Bill be an Ambassador to foreign nations or the like. He was well liked, and would be a great candidate to try to make amends/clena-up, and actually work with the foreign relations mess we are left with no?


TIS

Gee wiz I was just trying to have some fun.

TIS, you have a good point. I think that President Clinton still can be very useful to us. He did a great job heading up the tsunami assistance. Maybe President Bush should have put him in charge of helping the Katrina victims. You know, the ones that were just evicted from their FEMA trailers because they were slowly being POISONED.

Sorry, I digress.

I've been saying that for some time....thats why I'm against her, and its not because I was a Republican....I was a Republican.

I am absolutely certain for sure that if Obama gets the nomination, he would beat McCain. But if its Hillary....it'll be another ridiculous close, partisan as bitter hell election, and a shitty choice in general.

Both Mitt and Huckabee are SHITTY picks for GOP running-mate, they just are...so I doubt it.

A name I kept hearing was Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, who may or may not be gay(not that I care...but Rush Limbaugh will.)

Hillary's Wisconsin Ad slamming Obama to do another debate was just fucking embarrasing.

How many debates had these two been involved in anyway? 10? 30?

Besides, a candidate begging openly for a debate is a sign of pure electoral weakness.

You oldtimers remember McGovern in 1972, who dogged Nixon about a debate. Nixon was always so high up in the polls, he told McGovern to eat it.

Well, he did in November.

The McCain for 2000 was a guy I campaigned for, because unlike Bush, he didn't suck off Falwell or the evangelical powerbase. McCain of that time was my sort of Republican, a conservative at heart, but had broad goals (limit Congressional corruption, global warming, etc.) of which he was able to create Senatorial coalitions with Democrats....hell, even with a liberal like Feingold!

Hell, I even liked the last vistage of old McCain in that anti-torture bill that McCain mustered up and pulled a QB sneak to get passed.

But otherwise, the poor bastard has given the conservatives and GOP powerbase such a massive blowjob this side of DEEP THROAT, that he's practically now associated with the Bush Squad, that Obama can easily paint him as Bush The Sequel.

And if McCain backs toward the center, the bullshit-laden "conservatives" will abandon him, and the guy is screwed.

McCain at his best is as a reasonable moderate Republican who doesn't pimp Jesus or hump a Bible every chance he gets. Not as a blind Romney douchebag ideologue.

I've just been so alienated by the GOP because of the religion, and because they got away from that 1994 Contract with America, or at least the parts I liked of it.

You know, balanced budget, Congressional Term Limits, cutting down on welfare, you know....the rhetoric they preached but never practiced. Instead, that GOP wave went on a moral crusade against Clinton, which fucking severly backfired this side of the Edsel.

Hillary would rather set herself on fire than be Obama's running mate.

Clinton is only better by default..and that's not saying much.

Democrats hate when I say this, but Clinton had the smarts, the great political skill and instincts...he could have been a great President, but instead he let petty excuses and grudges get the best of him, and do outright stupid bullshit(Lewinsky).

Its ironic that he was the President who invited Nixon back to the Oval Office.

Ronnie, I swear to God (really, not like the Evangelicals), I don't know where you make me laugh more----your movie reviews or your political posts.

Am I understanding correctly that Romney, who recently endorsed McCain, gave McCain his delegates???? Can he do that? If so, I assume Edwards can give his to whomever he endorses???? Anyone know?


TIS

I believe so....but while his delegates would be a nice supplemental, whats more important is the political impact of this sponsorship.

Romney has no control over his delegates. All he can do is suggest to his delegates that they vote for McCain.

I got a recorded phone message from Hillary this morning telling me what all she is going to do for the state of Ohio and the country if she's elected.

Wow, Hillary losing last night, I expected...

But by 17 points?

Wow, w/ that and Hawaii, that is TEN loses in a row.

I so wanted to say this to the Clinton Clique for so many years...

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSEEEEEEEER!

Hillary is definitely in DEEP DOO-DOO. I think Obama is going to win the nomination. Well I guess people are more willing to vote for the first Black president than for the first female president?
I also think that people are just sick of the Clintons and Bill should have stayed out of it.

Yahoo News - Clinton looks to Ohio to revive a candidacy bruised by 10 straight Obama victories.

She's depending on you Miggy!

I really don't think that's the case. I'm a white American male and I'd vote for A woman, just not THAT woman.

Speaking of which, he actually tied her with white women over 50, which was considered one of her strengths, and he beat her in EVERY other demographic.

CNN, a Hillary loving network if there ever was one, is actually saying that even if she wins Texas AND Ohio, it's probably too little too late.

My gut tells me Obama will pull off Texas and Ohio will at least be close. By the time this thing gets to Pennsylvania, it might just be all over.

The only question remaining is when she'll have the good sense to get out, for the good of her party and all.

The Delegate Math:

After last night's contests, here's where things stand: The NBC News Hard Count is Obama 1169, Clinton 1018. There are 53 delegates unallocated, which is estimated to be a 27-26 split.

The superdelegate count: Clinton 257, Obama 185. That's a grand total of Obama 1355, Clinton 1276.

Counting only the superdelegates he has now, plus his pledged delegates, Obama needs 65% of remaining pledged delegates to hit the magic number of 2025. Reaching that is unrealistic, but when you add in the 353 unaffiliated superdelegates (76 of which are still unknown and won't be appointed until April, May and June), his magic percentage is down to less than 48%.

On the flip side, Clinton needs to win 58% of all remaining pledged delegates just to get the pledged delegate lead back. Forget 2025. And if you assume Obama wins Vermont, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oregon, Montana and South Dakota (he leads in all of those states), then the magic number for Clinton rises to 65%, JUST TO GET THE PLEDGED DELEGATE LEAD BACK.

Ain't happening.

Put a fork in her, she's done.

If Hillary Clinton wins the election and is the re-elected in 2012 and serves her full term, then we will have had a 28 year stretch where the presidents were either a Bush or a Clinton.

This is one of the reasons why Obama is and should be shouting about change.

Also, barring something unusual, the next president will be the first to win the election as a sitting member of the US Senate since John Kennedy.

This may also be the first election where both the Democratic and Republican nominees are current US senators. I need a little help from someone to confirm or refute this as I can't be sure. olivant?

It looks as though her only chance of winning the nomination is if Obama does something to lose it.

Advice to Obama: Limit the time your wife spends in front of the microphone. Be careful of the borrowed quotes...remember Joe Biden in '88.

That's mind boggling.

Well I know my father-in-law is voting for her so she has at least 1 vote in Ohio.

She had a rally last night in Youngstown. They said on TV that she wouldn't even talk about her loss yesterday.

Very mature of her.

Hey, enough about her, what about this moron Huckabee?

It's like he's standing on the train tracks and just can't hear the wooo-wooo.

"I don't believe in numbers, I believe in miracles. Jay-sus told me I'm a go-nna' win."

What a putz.

I'm not sure how confident he is in his prospects. In the height of the primary season and a day before the Washington and Wisconsin primaries, he spent a few days at Grand Cayman for a paid speaking engagement. He hears the wooo-wooo; he's just not listening to it.

Teamsters endorse Obama!

The official announcement won't come until tomorrow or Thursday, but I hear it's a done deal. It's the second major union endorsement for him this week, coming on the heels of the service employees international.

This will help him in labor minded Ohio and Pennsylvania a great deal.

What jobs are left in Ohio

The Spaghetti-O factory, duh.

In years past, candidates have been able to give their delegates away once they were out. I'm not certain re: the specific guidelines, but Edwards 30-40 some delegates are very important to whomever he endorses.



I cannot remember what Biden did back then. All I remember was the Gary Hart controversy from that campaign. Can you refresh my memory?

Ah cool, Obama has got the endorsement from the Mob!

Not cool, Tennessee, not cool at all.

Like Pizzaboy, its not a sexist reason why Hillary is losing.

Democrats are now seeing what me and several Republicans knew of for years and year....a petty arrogant woman who like her husband, its always someone else's fault for a fuck-up, and thinks the Presidency is her birthright.

I'm sorry, but that "speech plagarism" issue blew up in her face..and that "black candidate" nonsense in South Carolina may have been the turn of the tide, when African-Americans decided to overwhelmingly back Obama.

A good example is Chris Rock. If you've seen his stand-up comedy, he was a serious Clintonphile...and while he did campaign work for Bubba in 1996, he's now working for Obama.

In 1988 Biden and Hart were frontrunners for the Democratic nomination. Hart's dreams were shattered by "Monkey Business", Donna Rice and a couple of embarrassing photos. Biden gave an impassioned speech in Iowa, which later was revealed to have borrowed passages from British Labour Party leader, Neil Kinnock without proper credit. Additionally, the press found other instances where Biden was using lines from past Democratic leaders as his own. A little more scrutiny revealed that Biden had plagirized a law school paper in the 1960s, and had embellished his resume. By this time, Biden had to withdraw from the race. Today, with internet access it is much easier to identify "borrowed speeches."

Michael Dukakis came in as a bit of an early dark horse, kept his nose clean, and won the nomination. He ran a pretty good campaign until he got into the tank. Does anyone remember that?

I thought Dukakis was FUCKED by Horton....but yeah, looking like Snoopy in an Army Tank didn't exactly help either.

At least he got to be the butt of a joke in NAKED GUN 2.

As for the plagarism issue, while it screwed Biden, that only harmed Obama like a bullet shot at Superman's chest.

I tell ya, if he can handle someone as tough in the attacks as Hillary.....he will be a formidable opponent for the GOP Machine.

Very interesting primaries last night no??? By all accounts Clinton should know by the Ohio/Texas primaries if she's in or out. Most likely out, but we'll see. The polls always start out with Clinton with a sometimes double digit lead, but there's almost two weeks to go and Obama has been consistently closing the gap and coming out ahead.



TIS

Ok, question. If Obama gets the nomination, who does he name as his running mate?

I say Bill Richardson.

Looks like McCain was playing Hide the Sausage...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/us/pol...int&oref=slogin

Good question DC (How are you btw? Haven't seen you around. You ok?)

I've been following this closely and have tried to come up with an answer. I really don't think it'll be Hillary. I'm thinking perhaps, Joe Biden. He has had a lot of foreign affairs experience and I think would be useful/helpful to Obama. Gore would be great to have in the cabinet as well, although again not VP. I also wonder if maybe John Edwards might be Attorney General. What do ya think? I don't think he'd go with a second VP run. Just thinking out loud.

TIS

Where does Joe Biden stand right now in comparison to Clinton?

To my knowledge he hasn't come out in support of either, but I think he did work more closely with Clinton, so I don't know. He's kind of long winded, but I think he's knowledgeable.


TIS

I thought of him as a posibility, but I doubt the first black candidate would pick the first Hispanic running mate.

Typical NY Times, left-wing rhetoric.

Well, this story is certainly all over the news. I just can't help but feel there is another shoe to drop. If this is what the NYT has, without any kind of back up, I don't think this will go anywhere. However, IF this other shoe drops, that's another story. Were they waiting for denials and than gonna drop a bomb or what???? I hear they had this story in December and didn't run it. It seems if they wanted to throw McCain out of the running, they would have printed it then. Politics, what a sleazy game eh????


TIS

I think the fact that they sat on this story since December bodes poorly for it's authenticity.

See how fair I am?

I'm voting for the democrats this year, yet defending the republican candidate.

What makes me think there "may be" more is the fact that this story is so blatantly heresay without naming sources or giving any more info. Regardless if it's a leftwing news source or not, could they be that dumb???? They are burying themselves if that's the case.


TIS

I'm taking this story with more than a grain of salt.

Yeah, Klyd, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

I just think that after Clinton and Flowers and Lewinsky, et al, we're past the point where sexual misconduct could keep you out of the running anyway.

Well, I can sort of see the relevance if he's pitching himself as Mr. Squeaky Clean. Supposedly even his staff tried to keep her away because they were afraid that the "relationship" could be misconstrued.

It was just announced that Obama won the Demacrats Abroad Primary, collecting a whopping 65% of the vote. It's only a handful of delegates, but it keeps the momentum going.

11 in a row!

Considering this is the party to bring "honor & dignity back to the White House" and considering the fact that Clinton was thrown to the wolves, yes I agree McCain should be treated accordingly, if this is true. My point is that so far it appears to be an accusation that both McCain and the female lobbyist both deny. Unless there is further info, there is no evidence IMHO.

TIS

I heard that too PB. Yesterday then mentioned some leader/official from another country that likes Obama's "Yes, we can" phrase and is or plans to use it in his country. Do you remember who and what country, if you heard???? Anyway, many more countries than we'd realize are paying close attention to America's election.

TIS

HONOR ...... & ........DIGNITY

I'll tell ya', they all suck.

I thought that only Monica sucked?

Very funny DC. Talk about unflattering pictures.

I have high hopes this election. I really really really feel it can't possibly be any worse than we got now. Just think, come January 09, some village in Texas will be getting it's idiot back. Praise the Lord!!!!!


TIS

Amen to that, TIS!!

Bush will get a record book deal, I'll tell you that much, because he'll be the first person to write a book, having never read one.

Well Lord knows, New York has two right now!

You sure about that?

Damn! I would've bet dollars to donuts that he read this one :

You're right, DC. He MUST have read that one, since President Bush hasn't been able to find him in over 6 years. Perhaps it's a "how to" book?

After all, we all know Bush is the "Decider". He hasn't tried to find the "evildoers". Perhaps by reading any book (besides My Pet Goat), he'll learn "big boy" language.


TIS

Is anyone gonna watch tonight's debates? "They" say it's a make or break for Hillary. Yet, I must admit, I'll ask people at work and I feel, most of the time, like the only one that even watches? They've already debated 15 times I hear. Do you think it'll even matter? I gotta say, Hillary is a more seasoned debater than Obama, but I'm not certain, by now, that it'll even make a difference, unless something major occurs.


TIS

Sorry to be shallow, TIS, but American Idol results, and then a CSI/Without a Trace crossover vs. seeing the two of them debate AGAIN. Nope, not going to watch.

You know SB, with the time change, it's on at 5:00 here, so that is a much better time than 8:00. I don't know that I'd watch all of them if it were on prime time (at least not every one of them)

TIS

I'll be in class, so I can't watch. But I'll watch the reruns and analysis. This is our Nation and one of the two who are debating tonight could very well turn out to be our President. It is well worth watching.

I'll start watching the debates after the nominations. You just hear them spew the same bullshit time after time.

The fact that we could have the first African-American or First Woman President, makes this election a little easier to watch and a lot more interesting too. But, yea you are right, no matter who, one of these, (and I'll dare say "most likely") will be our next President.


TIS

Mine as well just watch an episode of LOST tonight because after watching these debates, we're still lost anyway.

( I know, that sucked )

Well maybe if "slick willie" would have paid a bit more attention, Bush wouldn't have had to try and find him!






You can say a lot of things about President Bush TIS, and many of them may be and are actually true. But the one thing that you cannot say is that he hasn't tried to find the evil doers. In fact, his zeal and desire TO find them is what has probably gotten him into so much trouble with the liberal left and organizations like the ACLU. C'mon now TIS.

Actually, we shouldn't really be hijacking this topic that is actually about the PRIMARIES.

We could start a new one if we really want continue to debate these issues.

I think thrown to the wolves is a little strong.

It's not like the Republicans planted the baby batter on Monica's dress.

Bush has NOT found the main evildoer (Bin Laden) of 911

To PB, no I don't think it's too harsh (IF true, and I'm not convinced it is true)

Sorry guys, I see nothing to brag about this administration, the worst at least in my lifetime if ever. That's my opinion like it or not.

I'm watching the debates now so I'm gonna go.


TIS

Hey, I hate the guy too, don't you read my posts?

I just happen to think that Clinton should have kept it in his pants, that's all.

PB,

I'm certainly not condoning Clinton's personal behavior, but I did like him as President.

Sorry, if I misread, but I'm watching the debates too. I'm half here.


TIS

Obama!

Obama!

I just heard of this story and wish I could find more details, but this is, to me, an indication of a "real" change that I can't quite put my finger on, coming about in our country. How wonderful that the youth of America is speaking out. Sort of like a 60's flashback. But good for these kids. Turn on the sound. Mostly chanting I guess, but I think it's inspiring that they are so vocal.

"Texas Republicans have worked overtime to make it harder for key Democratic voting groups to vote and be represented fairly. The redistricting games they’ve played are infamous. And for the Prairie View A&M University precincts, they put the early-polling place more than seven miles from the school.

So what did the students in this video do? They shut down the highway as they marched seven miles to cast their votes on the first day of early voting."

TIS

Students Shut Down Highway To Vote

TIS, that's inspiring. Thank you for sharing the video and the story.

Good for them! What the F**k is this, Selma Alabama in the early 60's or something!

What was done to attempt to prevent these students from voting is totally outrageous and unacceptable.

I know DC. The story is incredible and does sound so "dated". This should not be happening. That's why I was looking for more info. But yea, good for them.


TIS

You might want to know the following:

In Texas, County governments are responsible for arranging early voting and they must pay for all of it.

Texas law doesn't require more than a central early voting location in Counties under 100,000 in population. Waller County's population is about 35,000 and its about 500 sq. miles in size.

There are about 25,000 registered voters in the County of which less than 8,000 voted in the 2006 General Election.

The provision of a central voting location affects all Waller County potential voters, not just the ones at the College.

Voter turnout among College age Texas voters in general elections is typically less than 20%. It is almost non-existent in primary elections and even fewer vote early.

So, perhaps you should take the foregong into consideration before using words such as incredible or invoking images of the Civil Rights movement.

TIS -- with all do respect, if I wanted to vote early, I would have to walk 12 miles to the county seat to get an absentee (or early ballot).

No one is preventing an individual or group from voting in this particular instance. Does traveling the 12 miles make me feel disenfranchised? Not in the least -- I have weeks to make this happen if necesary. If needed to vote absentee (becasue I could not make it our to vote on election day), I have plenty of time to walk, drive my car, ride a horse, catch a bus, get a ride from a friend, etc.... to go vote. And, I would do so as it is important to me. Something as important as voting should not one taken lightly. (I believe I have told the story on the GBB or how my wife and I were living at a camp about 50 miles from our house and drove back on election day and our candidate won her primary race for state legislature by 2 votes [my wife and my vote]?)

Anyway - just my thoughts.

Good observation that puts things in perspective. Man, those evil Republicans

Olivant,

What do you suppose they mean by, "The redistricting games they’ve played are infamous." Where/why does this frustration come from? Since you are in Texas can you provide a link as you may have access to more of this story?

Also, with all due respect, just looking at that video, yes, it does bring to mind the demonstrations movements of the 60's IMHO.

And dear Part, forgetting Republican or Democrat, it was more the story itself that I was pointing out. I know political games do go both ways.

TIS

Back on topic...I just heard Ralph Nader is running again. Wait, don't know why I'm surprised I guess. Anyway, for those torn, here's another choice.



TIS

The Democratic debate on Tuesday night will be held at Cleveland State University. I happen to work there and have been selected to be a volunteer for the event. Our institution held a lottery for students to attend and a separate lottery for those wanting to assist the process. I will find out later today what I will actually be doing on Tuesday.

I'm looking forward to this unique opportunity. It will be a looooong day, as the debate will air from 9:00 - 10:30 pm EST. We're not permitted to bring any phones, cameras, or other electronic devices.

Goombah, that's great. I have never been a particpant in anything like that. This election especially, it would be very appealing. Too bad you can't take pictures. It has got to be a very exciting and interesting experience, to say the least.

Keep us posted as to what's going on there in Ohio.


TIS

Following the 2000 Federal Census, the Texas Legislature failed to redistrict Congressional seat electoral district boundaries. Therefore, several State judges did it in 2002. That retained a Democratic majority among the State's House represenatives. After the Republicans took control of the Texas Legislature in 2003, Tom Delay and his allies got them to redistrict again and this time they were able to turn 5 formerly Democratic filled seats to Republican seats (Gerrymandering). That's what the article means by redisticting games.

As far as the "60s" visual, I would urge caution. Why? Yesterday I watched a video of Rocky Marciano defeating Joe Lewis on his quest to become boxing's heavyweight champion. Or maybe I was watching this young white guy beat up this older black guy while everyone else stood by and applauded.

The march by those A&M students was a faux demonstration probably based in large part on their ignorance of the Texas Election Code, the voting cycle, and their own responsibilities as part of that cycle.

"They're Republican red, and true blue to Obama"

By Mark Z. Barabak, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
February 25, 2008
DELAWARE, OHIO -- Chatter bounces off the bare walls and checkered linoleum floor as Josh Pedaline and other Barack Obama supporters burn through their call sheets.

A map of Delaware County splays across a tabletop. Another table is laden with cookies, pretzels and other snacks. Volunteers sit elbow to elbow, pecking at cellphones and pitching the Illinois Democrat in advance of Ohio's March 4 primary. The scene is a typical campaign boiler room.

Except that four of the 13 dialing away are lifelong Republicans, including Pedaline, 28, who reveres Ronald Reagan and twice voted for President Bush.

"I am so sick and tired of the partisanship," Pedaline says before starting his night shift at Obama's outpost in this affluent Columbus suburb. "I don't want to be cheesy and say, 'He'll bring us all together.' But he seems like someone willing to listen to a good idea, even if it comes from a Republican."

Pedaline and other GOP renegades are part of a striking phenomenon this campaign season: They are "Obamacans," as the senator calls them, and they are surfacing in surprising numbers. Though some observers question their commitment, they are blurring -- for now, at least -- the red-blue lines that have colored the nation's politics for the last several years.

"I'm a conservative, but I have gay friends," Pedaline explains over dinner at a Columbus diner. "I have friends who don't believe in abortion, but I don't condemn them for it; I don't feel like Obama is condemning me for being a Republican."

Pedaline has some high-profile company. Susan Eisenhower, a GOP business consultant and granddaughter of President Eisenhower, has endorsed the Democratic hopeful. Colin L. Powell, who served in both Bush administrations, has hinted he may do so as well.

Former Sen. Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island, who quit the Republican Party after losing his 2006 reelection bid, endorsed Obama even though he campaigned for Chafee's opponent. Mark McKinnon, a strategist for Republican John McCain, says he will continue to back the Arizona senator but will step aside rather than work against Obama if the two meet in the fall election.

McCain also enjoys crossover support, Democrats attracted by his blunt talk and willingness to break with Republicans on campaign finance and global warming. "We know the old Reagan Democrats," McCain said aboard his campaign charter. "We'll try to get those on our side as well, Democrats who think that I'm more capable, particularly on national security issues."

But so far, Obama has shown more success pulling members of the other party to his side.

Republicans made up 6% of voters in Missouri's Democratic primary, 7% in Virginia's and 9% in Wisconsin's. (Most states make it harder to vote in the other party's contest.) The overwhelming majority cast their ballots for Sen. Obama, according to exit polls.

Johanna Schneider was one of his Virginia supporters. She went door to door for Obama with her 14-year-old son, Chase, convinced that fellow Republicans have lost their way. "I just feel this is a tremendous opportunity to open politics up to a new generation," said Schneider, a former GOP staffer on Capitol Hill. "And I believe that Barack Obama is a genuine transformational candidate."

The support has not come unbidden. Throughout his campaign, Obama has been appealing to Republicans even as he battles Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York for the Democratic nomination. Obama's first TV ad in Iowa featured a GOP lawmaker from Illinois touting Obama's ability to work with Republicans.

"Very rarely do you hear me talking about my opponents without giving them some credit for having good intentions and being decent people," Obama recently told U.S. News & World Report. "There's nothing uniquely Democratic about a respect for civil liberties. There's nothing uniquely Democratic about believing in a foreign policy of restraint. . . . A lot of the virtues I talk about are virtues that are deeply embedded in the Republican Party."

As noble as those words may be, there are tactical benefits to Obama's outreach. Winning support from Republicans and independents as well as Democrats "shows he's the candidate best situated to take on McCain in the fall," Bill Burton, an Obama spokesman, asserted. "That is an important distinction in this race."

Republican support also reinforces Obama's message as he paints himself as a unity candidate above party labels, capable of ending the Washington sniping. "We're going to build a working majority," he said the night he swept primaries in Maryland, Virginia and Washington, D.C. "Not by turning people off, but by bringing them in."

Those words resonate with Lennie Rhoades, 57, who cast his first presidential ballot for Richard Nixon and has voted Republican in every presidential race since. "It seems like Washington has come to a standstill the last eight years," said Rhoades, in between calls at the Obama office in a brick storefront below Delaware County's Democratic headquarters. "I think Obama can get beyond that."

Many are skeptical that Republicans will stick with Obama until November. They point out that many of his proposals -- including a timetable for ending the war in Iraq, repealing Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy, expanding the government's role in healthcare and supporting gay rights and gun control -- cut too much against GOP orthodoxy.

"Even in this day and age, partisanship carries a lot of weight," said David Redlawsk, a University of Iowa political scientist whose polling last summer picked up early signs of Obama's Republican appeal.

But for Pedaline, who spent months researching candidates before embracing Obama, there is no going back. Even though he questions the feasibility of Obama's plan to withdraw from Iraq and figures government would grow under the Democrat's administration, his support "is not a policy decision."

"It's a personality decision," Pedaline says. "It's an inspirational decision."

Pedaline, a loan officer at a Columbus mortgage company, grew up in rural Ohio and still carries the heft of his high school football days. His father, a salesman, and his mother, who ran a pizza shop, were largely apolitical. But Pedaline was bothered when the Democratic congressman from nearby Youngstown, James A. Traficant Jr., went to prison on corruption charges. "I had a bad taste in my mouth about Democrats from the beginning," he says over a chicken dinner.

During his college years in Columbus, the political talk was all about President Clinton and impeachment. That compounded Pedaline's contempt for Democrats in general, and the Clintons in particular. "Disingenuous," he says of the former first lady. He will vote for McCain if Clinton is the Democratic nominee.

Like many, he discovered Obama through the candidate's soaring address to the 2004 Democratic National Convention. His words put "chills on the back of my neck," Pedaline says, especially when he talked about America's shared values. He followed Obama on the Washington talk-show circuit and went to YouTube to download his February 2007 speech announcing his presidential candidacy.

By then, Pedaline had soured on Bush and the "conservative ideologues" he blamed for Washington's gridlock, especially when it came to Social Security, an issue important to his parents.

He wrote a long MySpace missive calling for a candidate "who is flexible, creative, intelligent and willing to compromise." After Obama entered the race, Pedaline posted his statement on a campaign message board with an addendum: "My biggest hope is that his refreshing outlook and attitude will rub off on his opponents both Republican and Democrat alike. . . . "

Soon, Pedaline heard from John Martin, a New York law student and co-founder of Republicans for Obama, a loosely knit grass-roots organization, who asked him to head the Ohio chapter. (There are 22 across the country.) Pedaline agreed, even though he was still weighing support for McCain and former New York City Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani.

Obama's two autobiographies sold Pedaline. After reading them last summer, he was convinced Obama possessed both the desire and a singular capacity to unite Americans. "Maybe it's just a fairy tale," Pedaline says, "but maybe we can at least get back to a point where people can listen and respect each other."

He committed to the Obama campaign six nights a week through the March 4 primary and hopes to volunteer in the fall, when Ohio will be a top target of both parties. His day job, which requires the occasional cold call, helps in phone canvassing. Two hours into his boiler-room shift, Pedaline sounds as relentlessly cheery -- "Hi, this is Josh, from Sen. Obama's presidential campaign!" -- as he did starting out.

Seated nearby is Royal Morse, 56, a small-business owner and another lifelong Republican. He too hungers for more civility and productivity in Washington. "I've never been as passionate about any presidential candidate in my 35 years of voting," Morse says during a break. "Never."

The two dial, chat, dial, chat, each in his own conversation until Morse gets some grief from the other end of the line. He glances at Pedaline. "Another one of those stuffy Republicans," he says. The two smile, and keep dialing.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-gopobama25feb25,0,2359434.story

The fact that Republicans and Independents in Texas can cross party lines and vote in the Democratic primary does not bode well for her. They have a choice as to which primary to vote in.

They're saying to themselves, Well, McCain has the Republican nomination sewn up anyway, so let me vote in the Democratic race instead, just to f*** over Hillary a little bit.

The Los Angeles Times article posted by RR above represents a certain naive view among Americans. Politics is supposed to be partisan. There's supposed to be wrangling. One essence of democracy is competition between interest groups for limited and sometimes scarce resources. There is competition for the allocation of resources to support ideas. A large degree of tension in any relationship can be a good thing and it is a good thing in government. unrequieted government is not only a bore, but inefficient. It engenders homogeneity and stifles creativity. That's one reason why ours is a federal system of government in the form of a republic.

Diebold Accidentally Leaks Results Of 2008 Election Early

The Onion?

The news equivelant of the GangsterBB.

We love the flattery, but we aren't that intelligent.

Let us know what you did for the debate and what you thought of it. I watched a few minutes of it and Tim Russert made me laugh when he called Clinton out on a couple issues. Did they talk about gas prices at all?

Joe Klein, author of PRIMARY COLORS, wrote this at TIME.com about the debate:

"Joe Klein wrote this at TIME.com....

"He won. He not only won by not losing, but he also won on points--and on demeanor, and on quickness, if not quite substance (although this was a fairly substantive debate on both sides). A few points:

--On health care: she's right and he's wrong. His implication that she would force people "who can't afford it" to buy health insurance is just plain nonsense. The whole point of her plan is to subsidize health care for those who can't afford it. The problem is the 15 million, more or less, who can afford it and choose not to buy in. They are mostly young, mostly well-off...you've heard the arguments. I agree with Clinton (and the ever-crusading Paul Krugman) that they have a moral and civic responsibility to buy in. I also agree with Clinton that it will be easier for insurance companies to discriminate and cherry pick absent a mandate. (But looking ahead to the general election, Obama's position will be more tenable against a Republican trying to sell the Democrats' plan as a "Government takeover of health care.")

--On NAFTA, both were more realistic than their stump speeches and advertising. Neither made outlandish claims about the impact--peripheral, at best--that trade deals have had on the decline of manufacturing jobs. I spoke with James Galbraith, the University of Texas economist today, and he said the major impact of NAFTA was on illegal immigration, not manufacturing jobs: the deal removed Mexican tariffs on agricultural products, which flooded Mexico with cheaper US food, which made farming untenable for many Mexicans, which sent them hurtling north in search of jobs. (I should Add that Galbraith agrees with both democratic candidates that trade deals should be carefully reviewed--for special interest trade breaks. Apparently, the loopholes in trade deals are beginning to look like the loopholes in the tax code.)

--On getting asked questions first: Bad, bad moment for Clinton. She seemed whiney, especially raising the SNL skit about the press fawning over Obama. If you go there--which you shouldn't--you do it cleverly. She didn't.

--On getting endorsed by Louis Farrakhan: Bad moment by Obama, later redeemed. Russert asked if he rejected Farrakhan's support. Obama said he denounced Farrakhan's antisemitism--which was to say, I don't like him but I won't kick away his (or the Nation of Islam's) support. Incredibly, Clinton saved him by mentioning that she had rejected the support of an anti-semitic fringe group in 2000. He responded brilliantly, "I would reject and denounce." There is a growing, despicable movement to denounce and defame Obama among right-wing Jews and this would have given them ammunition. He escaped, narrowly.

--On Russert's Iraq hypothetical: Way too hypothetical. We pull out, Al Qaeda in Iraq--which has been decisively rejected by the Sunni community and is on the run--comes back in droves? I think not. A more plausible hypothetical--and not so hypothetical: Kirkuk votes to join Kurdistan, the Turks invade...Senators, do you really think a referendum on the status of Kirkuk is a good idea? What do you do if Turkey invades? (Oh, and by the way, what do you think about Turkey's current operations against the PKK in Iraq?)

--On Clinton's Iraq vote: "You voted for driving the bus into the ditch." Great moment for Obama.

--On Clinton's "celestial choir" sarcasm: Great, gracious response by Obama. "I thought she showed some good humor there. She gets points for delivery."

--On Pakistan: Bad for Clinton, who repeated the canard that Obama wanted to "bomb" Pakistan. Excellent for Obama, who said he wanted to go after Al Qaeda operatives there if we had actionable intelligence and Pakistan was refusing to act. (Which we did a few weeks ago, in the CIA strike against al-Libi.)

Again, Obama just seemed in command throughout, never threatened, never flustered. Clinton didn't seem flustered either, but she didn't seem as big as Obama. We're nearing the end of this incredible race."

http://time-blog.com/swampland/

Both did well. Considering Obama he is so "new" and his inexperience is constantly questioned, he seemed totally in command yesterday. Hillary's SNL/"you ask me first" rant was a real turn off and seemed childish. It did seem the mods aggressively questioned both of them.

I have watched every debate and don't know at this point, if any more debates will change anyone's mind.

Goombah, let us know how it was up close in personal at the debates. Did you get to meet either of the candidates? I look forward to hearing about your experience.

TIS

I want to weigh in on the purtid performance of Tim Russert, who still thinks the debates are about him and not about the canidates. When he asked them if they would scrap Nafta and both basically said they would unless changes were made, he seemed deflated and almost angry because they did not waffle, then getting more ridiculous he asked them a hypothetical about the Russian army marching on Kosovo. First of all the Russian army is not about to launch a sneak attack on a Eurpoean country that far from its borders, and there would be months if not a year for the US and Nato and Russia to discuss various contingencies. These moderators need to ask the question and then shut up and let the candidates go after each other.

It was a great experience to be there in-person. While I did not get to meet the candidates, unfortunately, I did get to meet Rev. Jesse Jackson, Steve Croft from 60 Minutes, Richard Wolf from MSNBC/Newsweek, some state politicians and lots of other media. There were media reps from al Jeezera, England, Kenya and all over the country. I was able to watch some of the 7pm "Hardball" broadcast from about 15 feet away.

I put in a 17 hour day, so I am dragging this morning. To make the morning even better, I had over a foot of snow to remove just to get out of my driveway.

I thought the debate itself was rather tame. Clinton was in a tough spot - she's damned if she gets too negative and she's damned for not being aggressive enough. Given the fact that she needs a big win in Texas and Ohio, I expected her to come out swinging. She did not and I think she is done. Obama's answers on NAFTA and what he would do about Pakistan were solid. I thought Hillary came off as petty about her complaint of always being asked questions first.

Brian Williams spoke to the audience before the debate began and he was surprisingly funny. He seems like such a stuffed shift, but he was very personable. I have a soft spot for Tim Russert since he went to Cleveland State's law school, where my wife graduated from. I always enjoy his performances.

Sounds like a good time, Goomby. Ol' Billy C is speaking at U.T tonight, I think I'll go check it out.

Did you hear Hillary whineing about how the mods always ask her questiond first. Oh yeah and how she blamed Al Gore cuz she didn't come through with her promise to bring jobs to NY.

Well, I just got back from watching Bill deliver a speech in front of the U.T clock tower, and let me tell ya, the ol' boy has still got it. He has to be one of the best orators to ever grace American politics.

When the speech ended and half of the crowd or so had filtered out, he and about five Secret Service agents dashed into the huddled masses to shake hands. Although I didn't get to touch his hand, I was so close to him that I could see the lines in his face.

The man may be a lying, murdering bastard, but I couldn't help getting caught up in the moment!

He murdered someone?

Clinton = He's Gangsta

Will-Jef C

...I guess the Koreshians at Waco in 1993 don't constitute as someone?



Bill Clinton Murder List:

Vince Foster, a former partner in the Rose Law firm and White House aide, had just been served a subpeona and was supposed to testify about Whitewater. Instead of testifying, he died on July 20, 1993. A suicide note was supposedly found a few days later, torn into several pieces, in his briefcase, after his office had been entered by white house staff and materials removed. (The "suicide" note has since been revealed to be a forgery.) The suicide conclusion does NOT square with the testimony from the man who found the body (the Confidential Witness) or much of the forensic evidence. For example, the gun which he supposedly used to kill himself was reported to be still in his hand, but the person who first found the body reports that there was no gun. A signed report of Medical Examiner, Dr. Donald Haut was uncovered at the National Archives, proving that Foster had a previously unreported gunshot wound to his neck. And, an FBI memo has surfaced dated the day after the date of the official autopsy, in which the autopsies informs the FBI that there was NO exit wound.

Danny Casolaro, a reporter who was investigating several of the Clinton Scandals, was found dead in the bathtub of a hotel room in West Virginia on Aug. 10, 1991, with his wrists slit. He had earlier warned his family that his life was in danger and if he was found dead due to an apparent accident or suicide, not to believe it.

On March 3, 1994, Dr. Ronald Rogers, a dentist from Royal, AR, was killed when his twin-engine Cessna crashed near Lawton, OK, in clear weather. He was on his way to see Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, a reporter from the "London Sunday Telegraph", to reveal some "dirt" on Clinton.

John A. Wilson, a Washington, D.C. councilman, "hung himself". He allegedly knew a lot about Clinton and was reportedly going to start talking before his death made that impossible.

Gandy Baugh, attorney representing Mr. Lassater in a case concerning alleged financial misconduct, died in an alleged suicide on Jan.8, 1994, by jumping out of a window of a multi-story building. Mr. Lassater was a close associate of Gov. Clinton, and was later indicted on drug related charges, among other things. Baugh's law partner was "suicided" one month later on Feb. 9, 1994.

In July 1997, during the pre-trial publicity surrounding the Paula Jones lawsuit, and mere days after Newsweek's Mike Isikoff had dropped hints that a "former White House staffer" was about to go public with her story of sexual harassement at 1600 Pennsylvania, gunmen entered the Starbuck's Coffee shop in Georgetown while the crew was cleaning up. Mary Mahoney, a 25 year old former White House Intern for Bill Clinton, was working as the Assistant Manager. Mary's two associates, Aaron Goodrich, 18 and Emory Evans, 25, were taken to a room and shot. Mary herself had five bullets in her, from at least two different guns, most likely with silencers. A total of ten shots were fired; none of them heard by neighbors in the densely populated Georgetown section. Mary was shot in the chest, her face, and in the back of the head. No money was taken.

Suzanne Coleman had an affair with Bill Clinton when he was Attorney General in Arkansas. On 15 February 1977, she "committed suicide" with a gunshot to the back of the head. No autopsy was performed, but it has been alleged that she was seven-and-a-half months pregnant with Clinton's child, although never proven.

Judy Gibbs, who appeared in the December 1979 issue of Penthouse, and her sister Sharon were part of a house of prostitution in Fordyce, Arkansas that also engaged in blackmail of it's more powerful clients. Linked to Bill Clinton by both her own family and by one of Bill's bodyguards, Judy had just decided to cooperate with police in an investigation of Arkansas cocaine trafficking when she burned to death inside her home from a fire of undetermined origin.

Gary Johnson, an attorney who lived next door to Gennifer Flowers, was beaten severely and left for dead by two thugs who broke into his apartment. It seems he had videotaped some of Clinton's "visits" and had mentioned the existence of the tapes to other people. The intruders made sure THEY TOOK THE "CLINTON-FLOWERS" TAPES after they finished the beating.

Kathy Ferguson, the ex-wife of Arkansas State Trooper Danny Ferguson, was found dead with a gunshot wound to the head, in Sherwood, AR. On May 11, 1993, the right-handed Ferguson supposedly shot herself behind the left ear. It was labeled a suicide even though much of the forensic evidence does not support this finding. She died five days after her ex-husband, was named a co-conspirator in the Paula Jones case. Kathy had told friends that Clinton had sexually harassed her in a manner similar to that reported by Paula Jones. She purportedly had knowledge of Clinton's "regulars" and often talked about how Clinton had gotten Danny to bring women to him and stand watch while they had sex. Part of Danny's job was to make sure that each woman was ready and willing when she and Clinton got together. Kathy said she heard that Clinton was really mad when Paula Jones wouldn't "put out".

Bill Shelton, an Arkansas police officer and boyfriend of Kathy Ferguson at the time of her death, was found dead of a gunshot wound to the head, in Sherwood, AR. He was shot behind the ear which is usually the sign of an execution. His death was also labeled a suicide. Shelton was highly critical of the conclusion of local police that Kathy had committed suicide and he aired his complaints widely.

Sally Perdue, one of Clinton's "regulars", was offered a $60,000/year federal job to keep her mouth shut; or she would have her legs broken. When she did come forward, she received a series of threats; but luckily for her, the American press mostly ignored her.

James McDougal was serving his 3 year sentence for bank fraud at the Fort Worth Federal Medical Center in Texas, a facility operated by the federal Bureau of Prisons for inmates who need medical attention. Just prior to another round of testimony before Kenneth Starr's grand jury, Jim McDougal suffered a heart attack while in solitary confinement and died March 8, 1998. When Jim McDougal was taken out of solitary, instead of attempting to defibrillate his heart with equipment on hand at the facility, he was driven over to John Peter Smith hospital. Not the closest hospital to the Fort Worth Federal Medical Center, John Peter Smith hospital is a welfare hospital, where (in the words of one local) ,"They let interns practice on deadbeats".

Jon Walker, an investigator for the Resolution Trust Corporation (RTC), mysteriously "fell" to his death from Lincoln Towers, in Arlington, VA. In March 1992, Walker contacted the Kansas City RTC office for information concerning the ties between Whitewater and the Clintons. He reportedly was looking into a 50 million dollar transfer from an RTC fund in Chicago to Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan to cover up a 47 million dollar embezzlement.

Johnny Franklin Laughton, Jr., and a friend hit a telephone pole at a high rate of speed, Mar. 29, 1998, after their car had become airborne and left the road. They had driven less than 1/4 of a mile at the time of the impact. In the spring of 1997, a tornado ripped through some junked cars at Johnny's transmission and opened up the trunk of a car that proved to have a box of Whitewater records in it, including a copy of a $27,000 cashiers check drawn on Madison and payable to Bill Clinton. Johnny Franklin Laughton, Jr. realized what he was looking at and turned the box of documents over to the FBI.

The night before White House secretary, Betty Currie, was to testify before the Campaign Finance hearing, her brother, Theodore Williams, Jr., was severely beaten and hospitalized (see Oregonian January 29, 1998 Page A9). Then within one month of her testifying in the Lewinsky Grand Jury her sister was killed in a car "accident" in December 1997.

Ronald Miller died October 12, 1997. Miller is a former co-owner of Creek Systems/Gage Corp., an Oklahoma natural gas company that alleged discrimination by corrupt utility regulators. A court case that could have proved damaging to high-ranking Democrats was averted at the last minute when the Lums helped to purchase Gage Corp. and drop the lawsuit. Miller tape recorded Gene and Nora Lum and turned those tapes (and other records) over to congressional oversight investigators. The Lums were sentenced to prison for campaign finance violations, using "straw donors" to conceal the size of their contributions to various candidates. Reportedly a healthy man, Ron suddenly took ill on October 3rd, and steadily worsened until his deah 9 days later. (This pattern fits Ricine poisoning.) Owing to the strangeness of the illness, doctors at the Integris Baptist Medical Center referred the matter to the Oklahoma State Medical Examiner's Office who promptly ran tests on samples of Ron Miller's blood, but has refused to release the results or even to confirm that the tests were ever completed.

Ed Willey, the manager of the Clinton presidential campaign finance committee, died of a "self-inflicted" gunshot wound in Nov. '93. He was seen handling briefcases full of cash during the campaign. Mr. Willey died on the same day his wife was allegedly assaulted in the White House by Bill Clinton.

Barbara Alice Wise was employed in the same section of the Commerce Department which was the focus of illegal foreign fundraising. She was found dead in her office at Commerce's International Trade Administration on November 29, 1996.

Jerry Parks, the owner of a security firm that provided security for Clinton's presidential campaign, was gunned down, assassination style, on Sept. 26, 1993 in Little Rock. Now the dead man's son, Gary Parks, charges that his father, who ran American Contract Services Inc., was killed "to save Bill Clinton's political career." Interviewed in the London Telegraph, the younger Parks said "my dad was working on Clinton's infidelities for about six years, starting in the campaign around 1983," and had compiled two name-and-photo-filled files on Mr. Clinton that he kept hidden in his bedroom. The Clinton campaign had failed to settle an outstanding debt to Parks for $81,000 at the time of his death. Parks' wife said her husband threatened to go public with his information if Clinton did not pay the bill. Parks' home was broken into only hours before he was murdered. THE ONLY THING TAKEN FROM HIS HOME WAS THE DOCUMENTATION HE HAD ON CLINTON'S "ACTIVITIES".

C. Victor Raiser II, the co-chairman of Clinton's presidential campaign finance committee, was killed in a plane crash on July 30, 1992 near Anchorage, AK, in good weather. With his inside knowledge of the Clinton operation, he had become disillusioned by what he had seen and thus became a potential liability.

The Democratic National Committee political director, Paul Tully, died from unknown causes in his hotel room in Little Rock on September 24, 1992. The Arkansas medical examiner's office ruled the death was because of a massive heart attack.

L.J. Davis, a veteran journalist, was knocked unconscious in a Little Rock hotel. Pages were stolen from his notebook that contained information on the inner workings of the Rose law firm. He later received threats to back off the story. Davis is a contributing editor for Harper's magazine and does free-lance writing for many publications.

Herschel Friday, a member of the Clinton presidential campaign finance committee, was killed when his plane crashed on Mar. 1, 1994 as he approached his private landing strip near his Arkansas home, in a light drizzle.

U.S. Commerce Secretary Ron Brown was killed when his plane crashed as it approached the Dubrovnik, Croatia airport. Brown had previously been under investigation by the Senate Judiciary Committee, the Commerce Department's Inspector General, the Justice Department, the FDIC, and the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee was within two weeks of possibly being indicted for an bribe allegedly paid by Dynamic Energy Resources in Oklahoma.

Air Force Tech. Sgt. Shelley Kelly, a stewardess, survived the crash for some four hours. Kelly and another stewardess had been seated in a jump seat at the very rear of the 737. That area was found basically intact after the crash. According to the Air Force, she received first aid from Croatian rescuers but died on the way to a nearby hospital. Her autopsy report states that Kelly died of a broken neck…"

Ron Brown's high level Muslim associate, Mohamed Ferrat was supposed to be on Ron Brown's doomed death flight, but he changed plans at the last minute. He later died on TWA Flight 800. Coincidence?

Terry Reed, co-author of, Compromised: Clinton, Bush, and the CIA received a death threat while signing copies at a Little Rock Wal-Mart. The book claims that Bill Clinton was involved in more than $9 million a week in cash being secretly air dropped into Arkansas while he was governor. The threat was slipped onto the front seat of his car according to Little Rock Police Information Report Number 94-53155.

Stanley Huggins, a partner in a Memphis law firm, was found dead on June 23, 1994 reportedly from viral pneumonia. Huggins headed a 1987 examination into the loan practices of Madison Savings & Loan. He produced a 300-400 page report that has never been made public.

Paul Wilcher, an attorney, was found dead in his Washington, D.C. home. The coroner either could not find or did not report the cause of death. At the time of his death, Wilcher was investigating gun-running and the drug business in Mena, AR. Shortly before his death he wrote a 105-page letter to Attorney General Janet Reno describing evidence that he allegedly had concerning Mena. The first page of his letter stated in part; "The lives of key participants, other witnesses, and even myself, are now in grave danger as a result of my passing this information on to you. If you let this information fall into the hands of the wrong persons... some or all of those who know the truth ...could well be silenced in the very near future."

Alder Berriman (Barry) Seal, the head of the cocaine smuggling operation at Mena airport, was murdered.

Florence Martin, an accountant who had worked as a sub-contractor for the CIA, was found dead in Mabell, TX, the victim of three gunshot wounds to the head. She had the documents and paperwork as well as the pin number to an account that had been set up in the name of Barry Seal for $1.46 million dollars at the Fuji Bank in the Cayman Islands.

Kevin Ives, a teenager who lived near Mena, AR, was run over by a train close to Mena. First ruled a suicide, a later autopsy showed he was murdered before he was run over by the train. He may have gotten too curious about air drops he had seen in the nearby countryside.

Don Henry, a friend of Kevin Ives, was also run over by the train on the same night. His death was initially ruled a suicide, too, but a later autopsy showed he was also murdered before he was run over by the train.

Keith Coney, an individual who claimed to have information about the deaths of Kevin Ives and Don Henry, was fleeing an attacker on his motorcycle, when he slammed into the back of a truck. Police ruled it a "traffic fatality".

Keith McKaskle, another person who claimed to have information about the Ives-Henry murders, was brutally stabbed to death in his home. He knew someone was after him so he had said goodbye to his friends and family.

Gregory Collins, another person who claimed to have information about the Ives-Henry murders, died from a shotgun blast in the face.

Jeff Rhodes, another person who claimed to have information about the Ives-Henry murders, was shot in the head. His burned body was found in the city dump, with his hands, feet, and head partially severed.

Richard Winters, another person who claimed to have information about the Ives-Henry murders, was killed by a man using a sawed-off shotgun.

Jordan Ketelson, another person who claimed to have information about the Ives-Henry murders, died of a shotgun blast to the head.

Wow. If Bill could easily kill so many people, who had dirt on him, how did Monica Lewinsky and Paula Jones escape unscathed?

They were both too public

This is nuts. The slander that Clinton killed all these people was first propounded by Jerry Falwell, and it has been debunked. Now we have the same idiots saying that Barrack Obama is a one man Al Queada sleeper cell. What next? John McCain a secet Commie agent?

People who believe in these ridiculous conspiracy theories are people who think the moon landings by the U.S. were fake and that professional wrestling is real.

Whoa whoa whoa, stop right there. 'Rasslin ain't fake!

I have seen more Obama commercials on tv than I have that Douchebag. Like this morning I was watching the weather forecast then 3 Obama commercials right in a row.

BTW I'm already tired of hearing I approved this message.

Who is that Douchebag?

I am Longneck and I approved this message.

I will interpret the open-ended commment to be a reference to John McCain.

That's a good possibility but it could also mean a Clinton or even Obama.

I am Longneck and I approved this message.

I said that tongue-in-cheek, Longneck. I knew who Mignon meant, but she didn't say Hillary by name.

Ah, that's what was confusing, because douchebag in my mind usually refers to a man. Which I guess makes sense to call Hilary one now that I think about it

I think she'd have a better shot if she looked like McCain's wife....

McCain's wife is the only thing that appeals to me about his candidacy. She is waaaaaay to good looking for him.

Perhaps I was wrong. Maybe Miggie was referring to our resident self-glossed "Douche," none other than Don Sicilia. If that is the case, please quit calling Miggie!

Senators and Presidents DON'T have men killed..right, Kay Adams?

What if McCain is a mole?

Think about it. It was the Soviet Union that backed the North Vietnamese during the war. What if the Soviets brainwashed McCain (Manchurian Candidate) then allowed the Union to collapse with the intention of pushing the button on McCain when the time was right?

Is Obama black or white?

Good question. The media (without exception) refers to him as black. But his mother is white. Why isn't he white?

I've wondered this myself. Why does he need to be either one or the other?

Longneck, I totally agree.

Because, at least in this country, with a majority of people being of the "white persuasion" anyone who deviates in clearly visible ways must be non-white. Obama looks black, he's black, and analysis never goes further than that.

And virtually all African Americans are multiracial to at least some extent, thanks to centuries of rape.

Maybe he can be a Swirl.

"Barnstorming Obama plans to pick Republicans for cabinet"

by Sarah Baxter

As he jets across two key states whipping up the support that could finish off Hillary Clinton this week, the Democratic frontrunner is already mapping out a government of all the talents. Our writer joins him aboard Obama One

Little more than a year ago the Illiniois senator, 46, used to laugh that he was called Alabama or Yo! Mama, because so few people knew his name. If he can win one or both of the Texas or Ohio primaries on Tuesday, he is expected to wrap up the Democratic nomination – and begin the next phase of the battle for the presidency against McCain.

The Sunday Times was aboard Obama One, his private campaign jet, as he crisscrossed the two key primary states. It was an exhilarating ride with a candidate on the cusp of making history and robbing Clinton, who aimed to be America’s first woman president, of a distinction she thought was hers for the taking.

Obama is cutting a dash through Texas, addressing up to 20,000 people a day, and has overtaken Clinton by two points in the polls, according to Real-ClearPolitics. In blue-collar, recession-struck Ohio, he has narrowed the gap to within five points of his rival.

From snowbound Cleveland, where the ice was scraped off the wings of the jet before it could take off, to balmy Texas, where spring has arrived, the journey took Obama from one rally to the next where huge, multiracial crowds cheered wildly and stomped to cries of: “Yes, we can.”

On the plane Obama walked the aisle, chatting to journalists with a confidence that came from knowing his mighty opponent might be on her way out of the race in 48 hours and a slight edge of nervousness that the nomination is now his to lose.

Narrow wins for Clinton in both Texas and Ohio might encourage her to fight on, although Obama’s team believes she needs a lead of more than 5% to justify continuing her campaign.

Obama is taking nothing for granted in his quest to become America’s first black president. “Remember New Hampshire!” he said, recalling the primary upset that restored Clinton’s status as the frontrunner after her initial shock defeat in Iowa.

Earlier Obama had told the audience at a suburban high school rally in Dallas, Texas, that he intended to follow the example of his hero, President Abraham Lincoln, and appoint a cabinet of the talents, irrespective of party labels.

“I think America deserves the best person for every job and so we are going to be canvassing far and wide if I am fortunate enough to be elected,” he said.

Richard Reardon, 64, a security officer and veteran, said: “I’ll be honest. Maybe 20 years ago, I’d never have voted for a black man, but after the Bushes and the Clintons, give the man a chance.”

After overtaking Clinton in the national polls, as well as the popular vote and delegate count in the Democratic primary contest, Obama is now sizing up McCain with the same cool eye for signs of weakness.

They are evenly matched in the polls, an enviable position compared with the 20-point lead Clinton held over Obama for the best part of last year. He believes he will be able to make deep inroads into the conservative vote that put George W Bush into the White House twice but might not transfer its loyalty to his successor. McCain blurted out that he was a “conservative liberal Republican” last week, a slip of the tongue that confirmed the fears of die-hard Republicans that he is not one of them.

But the Arizona senator, 71, has an advantage over Obama, a foreign policy novice, on defence and national security. Republicans intend to draw a sharp contrast between McCain, who was imprisoned in the “Hanoi Hilton” by the North Vietnamese, and Obama, who was a schoolboy on the same continent in Indonesia at the time.

Obama got a taste of McCain’s withering scorn last week when he was ridiculed for appearing to suggest in a televised debate with Clinton that Al-Qaeda was not in Iraq. “I have news for you,” McCain chided him. The terrorist group was already there and was called “Al-Qaeda in Iraq". Round one, by general consent, went to McCain.

Obama believes he will be able to neutralise McCain by drawing on the expertise of independent Republicans such as Hagel and Lugar, who is regarded by Obama as a potential secretary of state.

Larry Korb, a defence official under President Ronald Reagan who is backing Obama, said: “By putting a Republican in the Pentagon and the State Department you send a signal to Congress and the American people that issues of national security are above politics.”

Korb recalled that President John F Kennedy appointed Robert McNamara, a Republican, as defence secretary in 1961. “Hagel is not only a Republican but a military veteran who would reassure the troops that there was somebody in the Pentagon who understood their hopes, concerns and fears,” he said.

Obama intends to pour more troops and resources into defeating the Taliban in Afghanistan.

He told The Sunday Times he would expect European allies to contribute more to the fight. “You can’t have a situation where the United States and Britain are called on to do the dirty work and nobody else wants to engage in actual fire-fights with the Taliban.”

He praised Prince Harry’s “commendable” service - “I’m sure the British people are very proud of him” - and said America would have a “special, special relationship” with Britain should he win the White House. “That’s inviolable,” he said.

Europe, he added, would get something in return for an extra push in Afghanistan. “It’s important for us to send a signal that we’re going to be listening to them when it comes to policies they find objectionable, Iraq being top of the list.”

As the plane flew on to Beaumont, Texas, a southeastern town near the Louisiana border, Obama let rip about parents’ responsibility for their children, a theme that appeals to conservative voters as much as the predominantly black audience in the theatre.

He drew the noisiest whoops and cheers of the day when he admonished parents for their failings. “Turn off the TV set, put the video game away. Buy a little desk or put that child at the kitchen table. Watch them do their homework. If they don’t know how to do it, give them help. If you don’t know how to do it, call the teacher. Make them go to bed at a reasonable time. Keep them off the streets. Give them some breakfast. Come on! And since I’m on a roll, if you’re child misbehaves in school, don’t cuss out the teacher! Do something with your child!”

He then went on to attack childhood obesity. “We can’t keep feeding our children junk all day long, giving them no exercise. They’re overweight by the time they are four or five years old and then we’re surprised when they get sick ... I know some of you that get cold Popeyes [chicken] out for breakfast! I know! That’s why you are all laughing! I caught you out!”

It is impossible to imagine either Clinton or McCain addressing a crowd in this manner without sounding bossy and patronising. Obama pulled it off with humour.

Cornel West, a professor of African American studies at Princeton University, believes Obama has found the language to address problems in the black community. “You have to respect black people enough to say that sometimes we make bad choices. You have to talk about personal responsibility as well as social conditions.”

Obama was equally at home the next day at a gathering of evangelical ministers in Brownsville, southern Texas, where he talked about his introduction to Christianity as an organiser in Chicago. He opened the meeting by referring to the prophet Jermiah, who told people “in a time of uncertainty and despair” that God had plans to “prosper” them and give them “hope”.

“The calling to apply the values of faith to our society is one that has been heard throughout the ages,” he said. “I think about the evangelicals I know who may not agree with me on every issue” - he was thinking of abortion - “but know that poverty has no place in a land of plenty.”

On the economy, the closely fought battle for Ohio has led Clinton and Obama to adopt populist, protectionist policies that have alarmed America’s main trading partners, including Britain. Even so, he takes time in his speeches to praise capitalism and entrepreneurship. Peter Wehner, a former White House adviser to George W Bush, believes Obama is a “completely orthodox liberal” whom McCain will be able to defeat on the issues. However, he could pivot to the right once he is the Democratic nominee. “He should take two or three issues, such as merit pay for teachers or school choice for low-income kids,” Wehner said.

If education is to be Obama’s signature issue, he might consider appointing Michael Bloomberg, the mayor of New York, as his czar. The billionaire media magnate last week ruled out running for president as an independent and said he would offer his support to whichever candidate took the most nonpartisan approach to America’s problems. The subtext was clear: “Hire me.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3466823.ece

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"Bi-Partisan" Cabinets aren't anything new. Hell, Dubya had a Democrat in Norman Mineta as his Secretary of Transportation.

Anyway, I think this is smart on the Obama campaign's part. Whatever or not Lugar/Hagel/Bloomberg actually end up in his cabinet, is irrelevant.