Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays

I read an article in my local paper the other day about a Catholic church that is selling buttons that say "Don't be afraid to wish me a Merry Christmas". I was wondering what the feeling here was regarding this sentiment.

Some people quoted in the article were offended by the buttons and felt that they were exclusionary. Others were relieved, because sometimes people feel that they don't know what to say, and don't want to offend anyone.

In a way, I can understand both viewpoints. I think that "Christmas" has become a gift-giving frenzy instead of the celebration of the birth of Christ (for those that believe). A friend of mine said the other day that she "loves" to "celebrate" Christmas. However, she's Jewish. I told her that she loves to celebrate decorations and trees and exchanging presents, but that she does not celebrate Christmas. At first, she was offended, but then she agreed with me. I told her it was akin to my "celebrating" Passover because I like to sit down with those that I love and eat a big meal.

Has Christmas evolved from a Holy Day for believers in Christ to something else? I'd be curious to know what you folks think.

ugh

I am not a christian, but I am not offended if someone says "merry christmas" to me. I will wish them back infact. You are right that the non-christians will not celebrate for the same reasons as the devout chrisitans do, but I see no harm in it. If not for all those fun aspects, a strictly religious festival might have faded away in today's society. Atleast the spirit is alive. I absolutely love the christmas colors(red, white, gold etc), the decorations and stuff. I visited a CVS store recently and was carried away by the beautiful christmas coloring scheme they have there. Ofcourse I was not thinking about saving a hungry child in Africa or something, but it is a feel good thing. Needless to say, that was IMHO, I don't mean to offend any christian members here. Merry Christmas to everyone in advance

Whats the fuss about Jews "celebrating" Christmas? They're "celebrating" the birth of a fellow Jew.

I'm not Catholic but many of my friends are. Both of my wives were. I grew up in a "mixed" neighborhood and learned early on the wonders of Christmas. I liked them. I "celebrated" some of the tidings of the Christmas season like gift-giving and decorating my home. Is this the true reason to "celebrate"? No, but as an American exposed to other cultures/religions, etc., I feel totally comfortable in this.

There's nothing wrong in a non-Jew sitting down for a seder. Its a wonderful tradition dating back some 3,000 years. One doesn't have to believe in the teachings of the Old Testament to "celebrate" Passover. The same is true of "celebrating" Christmas (one doesn't need to believe the teachings of the New Testament). If everyone would be a little more tolerable of their neighbor's beliefs we'd all be much better off.

Catholics don't have the lock on Christmas. There are plenty more Christian sects that "believe". They make up 75% of our country's population. Like everyone is an Irishman on St. Patty's Day and everyone is an Italian on Columbus Day everyone has the right to "celebrate" Christmas despite differing religious beliefs.

I'm not very tolerant of those who scream that we should rename the season to "Happy Holidays" (to be more politically correct). FUCK THEM Backing out the number of Americans who designate themselves as non-religious, 9 out of 10 Americans are Christian based and celebrate Christmas. Thats reason enough, IMO, to keep it as "Merry Christmas".

I was a bit disgusted when my friend was telling me about her sister's family, who are Jehovah's Witnesses. Mind you, I have no problem with any beliefs usually, but I sure did when I found out that not only do they not celebrate Christmas, but they don't even celebrate birthdays -- according to them, they're pagan rituals (okay, somewhat maybe, but still!). Not for nothin', but I cannot imagine being a kid growing up like that... but apparently the kids don't mind, even tho they USED TO celebrate those things before the parents converted.

In any event - I usually say "Happy Holidays" if I don't know the person's stance. Except last year when I purposely sent Plaw a Christmas card after his rant that DC posted

I am one of those who throughly enjoys sitting down for passover or a sedar. I happen to think that it is beautiful.




No they don't! The corporations do!



That's the Christmas spirit!




DITTO my friend.



Don Cardi

I tell my classes merry christmas without trepidation. It's all crap about this happy holidays stuff. If one does believe in God, why the hell would one think that he gives a flip about what you call it let alone making it a requirement of any sort. I feel the same way about burkas. You think God almighty created (if he did) this fantastic mechanism called a human body and then wants it covered up head to toe? You can call it religious practice or faith or culture all you want; to me, its just plain stupido and, no, I don't respect it!

I say nothing but "Happy Birthday of Jesus Christ Our Lord Our Saviour".

I've been that way for a few days now.

Sorry, SC, I disagree. Yes, I've been to a Seder. But does that mean that I celebrate the true MEANING of the holiday? No. It means that I'm honored to be invited to someone's home to share in a sacred ceremony, and to learn more about a religion different than mine, but that's where it ends, and where it should end, IMHO.

The true meaning of Christmas is celebrating the birth of the Messiah. No, Catholics don't have a "lock" on it, but I feel that it disrespects the holiday (which means Holy Day) if all you want to do is participate in the commercialization of it, without having any feeling for the true sense of what is SUPPOSED to be celebrated.

I'm confused here. Looks to me that you both have said the same thing in regards to the respective religions. So where is the dissagreement?


SB, you've been invited to participate in a sader, you are honored to be invited and share in the ceremony, but that does not mean that you celebrate the true meaning of the sader, "that's where it ends."

SC, you also enjoy the tidings of the season, the gift giving, and the wonders fo Christmas, but that does not mean that you are celebrating the true meaning, "that's where it ends."

Nothing wrong with either.

I think that you've both basically have said the same thing.


Don Cardi

I've always said, "Merry Christmas", not to make a point, but that's just what comes natural for me. For my Jewish friends I say, "Happy Chanukah." "Happy Holidays" just sounds a tad too diluted, cold and impersonal to me though the use of the phrase certainly doesn't offend me. Like "Season's Greetings", it just doesn't quite capture the warmth of the season. I guess to me, "merry" has a more festive connotation than the trite term "happy."

DC,
I think my problem is the word "celebrate". To me, if you are celebrating a holiday, then you are embracing its religious signicance. That's where I disagree with SC. You can enjoy, you can participate, but I don't think that you should "celebrate" Christmas if you don't believe that you are celebrating the birth of the Savior.

Merry Christmas, I think the greeting should be changed to Merry Gift Card Day.

Being the good Christian I am, I have a very simple philosophy.

Merry Christmas, if you're offended, go fuck yourself.

I hope everyone enjoys their Freedom Fries on the Holidays too.

PS: I haven't read if someone already brought this up, but why do people, especially atheists settle for "holidays." Didn't "holiday" come from Holy Day?

Shit, I might offend people with that too.

To all, a Happy Merry Special Time of the Year When the Mall is Packed and the Traffic is bad.

Spoken just like a "good Christian"...

I agree with this. "Happy Holidays" is like talking about the weather. Big Deal.

I'm a Christian, but that doesn't mean I have to get all offended if a Jewish friend, or stranger for that matter, wishes me a "Happy Chanukah"! I respect other people's beliefs and if they are offended by me saying "Merry Christmas" then they need to chill out. There are much more important things in the world to be upset about.

HAHAHAHA......Vercetti rules. Just where the hell did all these people come from who are offended by every little thing? They sure as hell werent around twenty years ago. Bunch of freakin' weirdos.

I've tried, and ran into several difficulties.

Screw that Happy Holidays bullshit! It's Christmas time. Christ the Savior was born. It's a time to celebrate his birth. People have Christmas dinner, go Christmas shopping, put up Christmas decorations and play Christmas music. So I say MERRY CHRISTMAS! For those who don't like it, well sorry, it is what it is...Christmas time!

To my Jewish friends, I will greet them by wishing them a Happy Channukah during the days of Channukah.

But Happy Holidays? Those are weasal words used by those who want to be "poltically correct" and are offended by the true meaning and spirit of the season.


Merry Christmas to all!



Don Cardi

OK, I won't come and visit your home for Christmas. The 4th of July is another story, though.

I agree DC. There would be no damn "holiday" if it weren't for the fact that it commemorates the birth of Jesus.

"Holy day."




So you'd rather celebrate the 4th of July with hamburgers and hot dogs rather than celebrate Christmas with Fried Calamari, Baked Clams, Scungili, Crab Meat, Lobster Tails, Stuffed Shrimp, Spaghetti and Clams, Baked Ziti, Manicotti, Christmas Cookies, Strufala, etc.?

Suit yourself.



Don Cardi

But I'm not allowed to "celebrate" Christmas. (I'll take my hamburger well-done).

BTW - Where in the New Testament is it written that these foods are used to celebrate Christ's birth?

And to all a goodnight.

This just makes me so sad that there are people who have nothing better to do with their lives than to cause hate and discontent. By starting this crap Happy Holidays rather than Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night
Happy Channukah to all and to all a good night

And Happy New Year to

My wife owns and operates a Montessori pre-school and kindergarten, whose clientele is represented by just about every race and creed. In fact, her kindergarten teacher is a dynamic lady, who is a Mexican Jew.Thus, when it's time for the annual "Holiday Program", they considered being ultra politically correct, but decided that watered down references to the specific holidays wouldn't be too interesting for kids 1 to 6.

Instead, the kids honored Chanukah with a spirited, albeit clumsy reenactment of the battle scenes of Judah Macabee with appropriate narration. Christmas was honored with a Nativity Pageant, in which Mary was Indian and Joseph Asian. They paid tribute to Kwanza with a play and music. In the end an older child was dressed as Santa in a cardboard sled that was pulled by nine kids dressed as reindeer with 2 year old elves looking confused while the rest of the school sang Here Comes Santa Claus.

Everyone loved it.

By the way, a day care nearby mandates that on March 17 there can be no reference to St. Patrick, and that the day be referred to as Green Day to welcome Spring. What a kick in the Shamrocks.

The main thing I can't stand about the Jehovah's Witness religion (mind you that I have an aunt who is a Jehovah's Witness), is the fact that they don't say the pledge of allegeance. WTF?! You can't pledge loyalty to the country who gives you the right to practice your religion without having to die for it?

I don't see what's so hard about wishing people "Happy Holidays"? It avoids confusion and/or offence. It covers everything. Why do people insist on saying "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Chanukah"? Just cover them all. I didn't think "Holidays" was difficult to pronounce, so why protest to saying it? I don't know.

So to all, regardless of your 'religion': Happy Holidays!!

What's the freaking problem? It's wonderful to celebrate whatever religious holiday you believe in. Keep in mind that Christmas and Hanukah aren't the only holidays anyway. I just keep it general anyway, Happy Holidays. It's hardly PC at all. There's more than one holiday, hence the plural form.

This is what I don't understand. Why does saying "Merry Christmas" cause confusion and offense? I'm beginning to think that the non-religious are the only ones that get offended, and it just seems so silly.

In fact, generally speaking, it is the conservatives who are religious and say "Merry Christmas" and the liberals are the ones that make a fuss about it. I find it ironic since liberals accuse conservatives of being close-minded and bigoted.

You've got a good point Blibble. It's been merry christmas for most of the past 2,000 years. Suddenly you've got a bunch of wimps that are so offended, the poor things. I bet even the guys among them wear dresses.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

happy holiday


Jesus is the reason for the season!



Don Cardi

Christmas is a religious holiday?

You're always welcome in my house, SC. For any reason, and for any and every holiday.

Btw, beef well done?? I don't thinks so. We prefer steak tartare.

I'm a born Muslim. I've attended protestant's church. I've had some Jewish friends over my relative's house for the Labor Day BBQ. And I've many atheist friends. I've never been sure what I'm, but one thing I know is that I like a reasonable debate about such issues.

I disagree with you SB. I don't think you've to be a Catholic to fully celebrate the birth of Christ. It is a birthday party, and all are invited. Who's there to say who really celebrates the true meaning of a holiday and who does not? If we don't keep an open mind, is there hope for changes in opinions?

I don't care what the cause for a celebration is, and as long as it is in good spirit, whether it is passing of Hebrews from the Nile River or the birth of Christ, I don't see why people can't truly celebrate it. I don't care if by your measures I don't fully celebrate the birth of Christ, I do it anyway. Although I've doubts that Jesus was God (I've doubts about every single thing I've been told in the context of religion), I still respect him for being one of the greatest prophets. And of course the Passover is the story of good prevailing evil, so myth or fact; it is a celebration for a good cause.

One doesn't need anyone's approval if he celebrates the true meaning of any of these events. I think we need more tolerance, both from those who get offended left and right by the way they are being greeted in such a good spirit, and those who pick on everybody else's way of celebrating holidays, accusing them of commercializing it. Let everyone celebrate however they like it.

If you have doubts that Jesus is God, then you cannot truely celebrate the "True Meaning" of Christmas because as you yourself said you recognize Jesus as being only a prophet, and that it is just a prophets birthday. Can you pertake in the celebration with those who are true believers in the spiritual meaning of Christmas? Of course you can, but you won't be doing so for the same reasons that they are. Religious meanings of Christmas and their sprititual beliefs of Christmas.

To a Christian believer ( I don't like using denomonational names such as Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, etc.) the true meaning is that The Messiah was born, Christ the Saviour was born.

And this is where I think the misunderstanding comes into play.

SB, or myself for that matter, is not telling ANYONE that they cannot partake in a Christmas dinner, a traditional exchanging of the gifts ( which by the way also has some religious significance that I won't get into) decorating, etc., but only that those who are non believers really cannot celebrate in spirit the true meaning of what a believer knows Christmas really represents in their own faith.

I go to a Hebrew Brisk. In order to enter the Synagogue I am asked to put a Yamakule on my head. Am I a believer in what this ceremony represents religiously? No I am not. Am I wearing the Yamakule because I believe in it's religious significance? No I am not.

I am wearing the Yamakule and partaking in the ceremony out of respect for my Jewish friend and his religion. I partake because my friend thinks enough of me and has honored me by asking for my presence at what HE believes to be a very religious act according to HIS faith. Am I partaking in the celebration, yes I am, but not for what it's religious significance really stands for, but more so out of joy and out of respect of the celebration. So therefore I am not spiritually celebrating the religious meaning of the Brisk, but I am physically celebrating the fact that it is of religious significance to my friend and his beliefs.

What I really think that this all comes down to is how the word "celebrate" is being used here. Non believers celebrate the traditional acts that go along with Christmas. Believers celebrate the spiritual meaning which we believe has provided us with those traditional acts. And the difference is that we believe in the religious meanings behind those acts that we partake in on Christmas.



Don Cardi

I don't need someone else's approval or their analysis of my spiritual state, in which I celebrate. We could have doubts and disagreements about the qualities a person has, and we both can celebrate his birth. You might not approve of what I believe about him, and I might not agree with what you believe, but I too can have my share of spiritual celebration just as you can, even if it is different than yours.

Remember, we all have been told what we believe in and I don't see how anyone can be 100% sure which one of them is the right one. I'd rather see people gather together for a good cause, than be separated by those who analyze other's beliefs. Yes, I don't celebrate for the reasons you do. Who's there to say which one of them is the true reason and which one is not?

OK, its a dirty job but I'll do it.

I knew I can always count on you SC!

RIGHT ON!----EXCELLENT POST DON,
And I would like to take this time and Wish GBB

"A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A VERY HEALTHY HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Afs -

You totally missed the WHOLE point of my post. I did not ever say that I don't approve of who you believe that Christ is. I never said that your beliefs are wrong and mine are right or visa versa. I merely was trying to differenciate why a practicing participant in a certain religion with certain beliefs might spiritually celebrate their religious holiday versus someone who is not a practicing participant of that religion but still chooses to partake in that religious holiday even though they don't believe in the other religion's spiritual meaning of it. Just explaining what Christmas means to the Christian people.

I don't know what it is, but whenever we talk about relgious cultures and the different beliefs, and someone replies to a post that you make, right away you go on the defensive and assume that the person who replied to you is questioning what you believe in or telling you that what you believe in is wrong. No one here even hinted that what you believe is wrong

Perhaps I can enlighten you and help you to understand what the spiritual meaning for Christmas is to Christian believers and why some of the things that we do at Christmas are not just things, but have a spiritual meaning to them.

Many put up a fur tree because it symbolizes the everalsting hope of mankind and his thoughts towards heaven, all year round.

The star on top of the tree represents the star that led the three wisemen to the infant Jesus. It represents guidance given by God and the fulfillment of the promise that God would provide the world with a saviour.

The candles and Christmas lights are a reminder that Christ is the light of the world, and that our saviour replaces the darkness with light.

The wreath symbolizes the continuing love that Jesus has for us.

The tree ornament represents the feelings of good will that Christ has taught us to show towards our fellow man.

The Holly that is hung represents Christs immortality and the crown of thorns that He wore.

And the gift giving, the most important act of Christmas, is done to remid us that God gave us the ultimate gift when he gave the world his only begotten son.

I don't post these explainations with the attempt to get you to believe in these things. I only post them with the hope that you will have a better understanding as to why there is such a deep spiritual meaning for Christians when we celebrate Christmas and all that comes with it.








Don Cardi

I think this makes the point. While we can all join in and celebrate feast days of multiple cultures, we do so on different levels.

An analogy could be watching the Super Bowl. You go to the party, watch the game with friends, and have a fun time. If your favorite team is playing in the game and wins, it is more meaningful to you than for someone whose team didn't make the game even though he decided to root for the team that won.

Please don't think that I'm comparing holy days to football games. Just an analogy.

May all enjoy the festivities of the season peacefully, joyfully and safely.

Well said my friend, well said.




Don Cardi

Jesus never taught that he was God.

DC, we already know the reason for our celebration is different, but here's what you said:



And of course, I asked you, who's there to say which one is the true meaning, which you dodged answering.

I celebrate miraculous birth of a person who was born from a virgin mother touched by no man and talked in the cradle. You celebrate birth of God and savior. I put a question mark on what I believe and what you do as I'm not sure which one of them is right, or even if they are both just heartwarming stories. Nonetheless, I think everyone can celebrate for a good cause, even if they disagree about the meanings and origin.


Still, you told me I couldn't truly celebrate the "True Meaning" of Christmas. Well, stop me. Merry Christmas!

Right Jesus is the Son Of God!

Sorry, Afs, obviously we must agree to disagree. To a Christian, Christmas means celebrating the birth of Jesus, God's own son, and our Savior. If you don't embrace that belief, then you can't celebrate the true meaning of Christmas, IMO. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't want to learn, enjoy, and respect the beliefs of others.

Where is it written that Jesus was born on December 25th?

He wasn't. The Church selected this date in the 4th Century. Many scholars beleve that Jesus was born between whatwe now know as late April and early May around the years of 4-6 A.D.

I'm glad we celebrate when we do though.

As long as you put "IMO" at the end of that sentence, I'm okay with it, as you are entitled to your opinion. But to come out and just say I couldn't celebrate the true meaning of a holiday, as if you own that holiday and you are in charge of approval and analysis of how someone celebrates and if they celebrate the true meaning of that event or not is not acceptable; since you are not God and neither I'm.

First of all, Afs, you should know me better than that. When did I ever play God?? I state my opinion and at times I've done so vigorously, but I have never attempted to force my beliefs down anyone's throat. They are my beliefs and nothing more. And for you to imply that I am intolerant of anyone else's beliefs is rather insulting, or that I would attempt to own something as sacred as Christ's message of love and acceptance, is really insulting.

Klydon1 summed it up best. And I think that in the spirit of Christmas, we all should leave it at that.

Don Cardi

Having been raised celebrating Christmas, being around family friends who celebrate, and in my school years always had Christmas plays with even religious songs, it's just a natural thing to me to say "Merry Christmas." :/Of course there are many different beliefs and celebrations, but I tend to think this Merry Christmas/Happy Holiday thing is totally blown out of porportion. I always wish people a Merry Christmas and am sure I always will. To my knowledge, I haven't insulted or hurt anyone' feelings. If I knew beforehand someone didn't celebrate Christmas of course I wouldn't extend that greeting. I think generally the majority of people are much less sensitive about it than we are being led to believe thru media.

A few years back at my school I wished one of our teachers, as he was passing by a Merry Christmas. He kindly said thank you but, "I don't celebrate Christmas, for me it's Hannakah (sp). We started talking and knowing next to nothing about the Jewish faith, I asked him if (for in the future, so I'd know), "Happy" Hannakah was the proper greeting. We talked for a while, and he proceeded to tell me about this celebration. I learned a little bit of another faith that I didn't know. No sensitive and/or hard feelings at all.

Another time one of our students came in with an article of clothing that maybe was a robe (it was wrapped in a large bag.) One of the teacher's was having some kind of ethnic "show and tell" type thing in her class and the girl asked if she could keep it in the office because she didn't want to carry around until last period. I told her sure she could and I took the bag and started to put it on the floor with other student's projects that had been turned in for other classes. She quickly, in somewhat of a demanding voice said, "no no, don't put it on the floor." At first I thought she was being a little defiant, but something told me from her face that wasn't the case. I said to her, "oh, is this a religious symbol or belief? Is that why it can't go on the floor?" She looked relieved as she nodded and said "yes." I said "sure, I'll put it right here on the table then." Again, I might not understand and in some cases agree with all religions/beliefs, but surely we can all respect everyone elses. I think most people do, don't you?


TIS

When I was told I can't celebrate the true meaning of Christmas. How does anyone get to define the true meaning of Christmas if one doesn't intend to play God? Oh, and I'm just as insulted by your opinion, but I just tolerate it, because that's what we all should do about other's opinions. My only intention was to point out that no one gets to define the true meaning of a holiday and go out and tell people if they are celebrating the true meaning of a holiday or if they are not. And even if one does, big deal, we don't need his/her approval.

Of course in my opinion, your opinion is based on anything but Christ's message of love and acceptance. Celebrate for the reasons we do or be an outcast that does not celebrate the true meaning of a holiday according to me. Acceptance?! pauleeeeeze.

In any case, still Merry Christmas to you.

Afs-

Can one celebrate Ramadan in their own way? Can that person indulge in eating, drinking and smoking and celebrate Ramadan in that manner?




Don Cardi

Well, as the matter of fact, that's the way I celebrate it, except that I'm not a smoker. If anyone decides to play God for me, I remind them that they are not God, and they should mind their own business.

Mind you Ramadan is not a holiday, it's name of an Arabian month, and taking fast is not technically a celebration, but a duty on Muslims not to do certain things from dawn to dusk for a whole month. And they also take first day of the following month off for festivities, which must include eating. I've been told so by oldies and not God himself directly, so I don't know. Do whatever you want with it, claim you celebrated Ramadan, whatever. I don't own it, nor you'd be celebrating it for my sake or any other Muslim, nor do I get to analyze the way you carried out what God has expected from you, which is your personal business.

Isn't it considered a holy month that celebrates Mohammed's receiving the Quran from Allah when Muslim believers celebrate that act by fasting from sunrise to sunset and using the holy month as a time of spiritual renewal?


Don Cardi

No, fasting is not a celebration per se, month of Ramadan is holy because of receiving Quran, but keeping fast is a duty upon every healthy and capable Muslim and not a mean of celebration, but a mean of trial of faith. The celebration is actually the fest of Eid Al-Fetr, in which Muslims celebrate their endurance for keeping from sins and desires through the last month. Is lent a celebration/festival? Ramadan is somehow the same story.

Still, I try to keep away from certain desires and I celebrate that on Eid Al-Fetr. Who's there to tell me that I can't celebrate for such accomplishments?

Ok. So then Eid Al-Fetr is a celebration significally resulting from going through the spiritual experience of Ramadan. So in other words Muslims celebrate Eid Al-Fetr basically symbolizing the end of the holy month in which they've gone through sacrafice and spiritual healing.

Now although I may join you in your home to partake in the celebration of Eid Al-Fer, as a Christian believer the celebration itself may be fun to me, I may enjoy in the food being served and I may enjoy other festivities that go along with celebrating that holiday, but in truth, as a Christian believer, I am not partaking in celebrating with you for the religious significance that Eid Al-Fetr represents. Yes, no one should ever tell me that I cannot partake in a celebration of a Muslim holiday with my muslim friends, or any other holiday for that matter, but by the same token I am not really celebrating the holiday with you because I believe in it's religious significance, but I am celebrating it with you only because I respect your belief of what the holiday stands for spiritualy,
and I may enjoy the physical fruits that the celebration offers.

And basically that is what I think that SB and myself have been trying to convey here to you. No, neither her or I, or anyone else has the right to tell you that you shouldn't be partaking in the celebration of Christmas, but at the same time while you may be partaking in the celebration of Christmas, you really are not partaking in the spiritualy religious meaning of it, beacuse as a Muslim, it is not your belief that Christ is the son of God and that he was given to us by God as our saviour and messiah.

And just as Eid al-Fetr has a religious meaning for Muslims such as yourself, and is celebrated as a result of a spiritual and religious experience that a Muslim has goes through for the month of Ramadan, Christmas has a spiritual meaning, for
us as Christians, and that is why we celebrate it.

Can you partake in celebrating Christmas? Sure you can.
Can I partake in celebrating Eid al-Fetr? Sure I can.

But please don't sit there and tell me that your celebrating Christmas has the same spiritual religious meaning to you, a Muslim, as it does to me, a Christian, because as a Christian, Eid al-Fetr does not have the same religious significance for me, as it does for you.


No one here is telling you that you do not have a right to enjoy Christmas.



Don Cardi

All I'm saying is that who could really define the true meaning of a certain holiday except for God?

You are welcome to join the feast of Fetr at our house. At the same time, I wouldn't be judging you, and tell you that you are not celebrating the true meaning of Fetr, because you may be doing something better according to the meaning of this feast, which none of us knows for sure. You might as well be better in the eyes of Allah/God than any Muslim who has been fasting the entire month.

In short, I don't get to define the true meaning of a holiday, nor do I get to say who celebrates it according to its true meaning and who does not.

A little story that we've been told in the school books as the example of such cases, involves Moses and a shepherd. Moses comes across a shepherd who is worshiping God in the most primitive form, almost as if God is a sheep. Moses instructs the shepherd for the right way that one should pray to God. Later God tell Moses that he made one of his favorite people self-conscious, so he does not pray as well as he used to do, and he loved the way he used to pray. I've no idea if this story has been mentioned in Torah or not, but true or false, there is such a deep meaning to it. And that's just something to remember when we all judge everybody else's way of praying/celebrating. Even Moses doesn't get to tell you how to pray, and Jesus tells you Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Nobody is JUDGING. Nobody is going to call the Holiday Police. As a Christian, it is MY sacred belief that I am celebrating the birth of Christ the Savior, God's only Son, on Christmas Day. It is also MY belief that a non-Christian cannot truly celebrate the meaning of Christmas. Does that mean that I would JUDGE anyone who does? No. Does that mean that I would disrespect anyone who does? No. Does that mean that if I saw a tree and lights at a non-Christian's home that I would feel compelled to tear them down, or demand that they do? No. If you decided that you want to celebrate Christmas by putting on a red blinking nose and dancing naked to Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, have a ball.

But, IMO, you are not celebrating the true meaning of Christmas.

By calling what you do the true way, and therefore any other way the wrong way you're simply judging others' way of celebrating Christmas. It is as simple as that.

Is Christ the Savior of any other religion? just curious.

I celebrate the season but, I don't celebrate it as being Christ's birth. Imo I don't believe he was born on December 25th. If Af's celebrates the season the way she was brought up in her culture then she is celebrating the true meaning for her.

Af's,

In your culture do you exchange gifts with family and friends?

Shi'a Muslims believe that he'll come along with the Savior promised to them when the world enters its darkest era. I've no idea about any other sect or religion.

No, gift exchanging is not part of our culture. Just commemorating his birth, as miracle of God and messenger of love and peace. But then if you ask about the family in the US, since my aunt is Christian, we do the whole thing, Christmas tree, gift exchanging, etc.

As for Christians here, they actually celebrate on Jan 6, because of the difference between Julian and Gregorian calendar. So it depends who I'm celebrating with.

Of course to ME it is the true way. That's what faith is. And Mig, you raise an interesting point. I don't know when Jesus was actually born, but I believe that Christmas is the celebration of His birth, so that's when I celebrate it.

afs - I'll gladly play "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" if you supply the rest.

Muslim's don't exchange gifts on Eid al-Fetr?



Those who are practicing believers and who have been taught from God what that holy day represents.

Christmas represents that Birth of the Messiah, Christ the Saviour, and if you don't believe that Christmas represents those things, than you cannot really celebrate the true meaning of Christmas.


Don Cardi

SC the red nose consigliere, had a very shiney nose,
And if you ever saw him, you would even say it glows,
All of the BB members, Used to laugh and call him names,
Irish never let poor SC, play in any BB games.

Then one foggy Christmas eve, Malta came to say,
SC with your nose so bright, won't you mod the boards tonight.

Then how the members loved him, and they shouted out with glee,
SC the red nose Consigliere, you're the man of the BB!




Don Cardi

In the words of Jim Carrey "Have a very Christ-y Christ-y good time" this Chrismas!

Take a bow Don Cardi

Very well done.

[quote=afsaneh77
All I'm saying is that who could really define the true meaning of a certain holiday except for God?

[/quote]

I appreciate the points you have all been making. From the running discourse, I believe that Christmas means means more to you, afsaneh, than it does for most non-Christians. I also believe that SB's heart is touched by Christmas in a very deep way. While you both celebrate, I'm sure the impact of the season consumes you in different pleasant ways.

As for the attempts to define the true meaning of the holiday, Christmas- or any holiday- wasn't created by God, but by men and women. Certainly, I beleve that love and adoration for Christ motivated Christians to honor His advent. The arrival of the Christ child was deemed appropriate for celebration many years after His death and what I believe was His resurrection.

That said, it is a wonderful world when we can all celebrate each others' holidays. I believe that in addition to the spiritual spirit of Christmas, which fascinates me as much now as it did when I was a kid, Christmas has also developed a secular spirit of goodwill and festive cheer. I am ashamed to say that my knowledge of Muslim holy days is basic. I should be more well rounded.

Afsaneh, can you give us a little picture of how Christmas is celebrated by Christians in Iran? I know you join the festivities, but is it common for non-Christians there to celebrate on some level? Just wondering.

SB, I gave this a lot of thought. I still disagree with you. I think although we might call the destination different names, and be on different routes, but we all can be led to the same thing. In this way of thinking, different cultures and religions can live peacefully together. I also believe there is not a single true way to reach the destination. I think there are as many ways as the number of human beings for worshiping/celebrating and reaching out to what we feel we've lost and we all are in search for it. My faith, that I confess has not always been in a firm state, is based on the destination, not on a specific route. It is based on worshiping what we all tend to call God although we might have different perceptions of him. But of course, although I voice my disagreement with your way of thinking, I respect your views.

SC, OMG! Okay, I'll celebrate with you. Sounds like fun.

DC, I celebrate the birth of Messiah, the miracle of God, the sign of God on earth and the promised savior. I can and I do. I don't care what you think about the meaning of my celebration, or if you approve of it or if you don't, since I don't think a holiday belongs to any specific person or group and all can have their own share of it.

As for your other question, we don't exchange gifts on any religious holiday. On Fetr, we help poor by donating some gifts, but nothing is being exchanged in the family. In Iran, the secular holiday of New Year is being observed exactly on the moment of beginning of spring, and in that holiday youngsters receive gifts from the elders of the family.


Klydon,

I agree with you. Even the most secular forms of celebration of Christmas have its share of good will.

As for how Christians celebrate in Iran, some have mixed Eastern and Western traditions, but for the most part here is how it goes:

They keep "Little Fast" from eating animal products, beginning on December 1st. Then they break the fast on Christmas day (Jan 6), by usually a dinner of chicken or turkey. Exchanging gifts are not customary, but some have adapted this tradition from West. Children receive new cloths and families and friends pay each other visits. Lately you see people dressed as "Papa Noel" (Father Christmas) and decorated pine trees, but these all has been adapted from Christians of Western culture. Christians in Iran call this celebration "Eida Sura" or small holiday. "Eida Gura" or big holiday is referred to Easter and they keep the "Big Fast" before that holiday.

As for Muslims, a dinner with family and a commemoration of birth of Messiah is usually observed.

It's not. It's an Italian tradition thing. But it's good stuff!


Don Cardi

Christmas : Celebrating the birth Of Jesus (which is the greek name for Messiah) Christ ( which is the greek word meaning "the annointed one").

Messiah : The redeemer sent by God, the saviour.


How can you clebrate the birth of the Messiah when your religion teaches that your Messiah has not even come yet and that Jesus Christ is NOT the Messiah?

Christians believe that the GIFT that was given to us by GOD was our Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ. Christians believe that he was the miracle given to us by God.


As I've said in several other posts, it's not that I don't approve of your partaking in the celebration of Christmas, (not that you or anyone else needs my apporoval) or celebrating it they way that you want to. What troubles me is that you claim to celebrate Christmas because of it's religious significance "DC I celebrate the birth of Messiah." when you cannot celebrate the religious significance of Christmas because you are of Muslim teachings who has "doubts that Jesus was god," and you look upon him as being just one of the "greatest prophets."

Again, you can celebrate it, as it is your right to celebrate anything or any holy day that YOU want to. I am not disputing that aspect with you.

But my point is that you are a Muslim who has been brought up with Muslim beliefs, so therefore you cannot celebrate Christmas with the same spiritual meaning, or for the same spiritual reasons that a Christian celebrates it. I mean techinically you can, anyone can, but you really don't because you are a Muslim, and it is not what the Muslim faith teaches you or believes in.


Don Cardi

I ask you DC, where in Islamic beliefs there's anything against the account of coming of Messiah? Actually, that's the exact name Jesus is being called in Quran, and what we call him: Masih. He was sent by God to redeem the people of Israel. The account of his birth is in fact in Quran, as how he was born form virgin Mary and how he talked in the cradle, cured sick and brought dead back to life. However, it is also pointed out that when God ascended Jesus to Heaven, asked him why he told people he was God, and he said that he has not done such a thing.

Personally I'm the kind of person who gathers what I think is best for me in all religions. Therefore having read that, I've doubts that Jesus was God.

I understand your point, the reason we celebrate might be on different levels. You celebrate the birth of God, and I celebrate the coming of Messiah, the prophet who was born to redeem his people, the one whose birth and life was a miracle. Still, I don't see why we couldn't forget about spiritual level score boards and look at what we all can agree on.

FINALLY!

That was the whole point from the start of this conversation. The point that both SB and I were trying to make.


Don Cardi

I generally say "Merry Christmas" to everyone unless I know it would offend some individual.

That said, I also will wish my Jewish friends a happy new year in the middle of September, and I would not ask a Muslim to eat lunch with me during Ramadan.

It is all about tolerance, and I never understood what the big deal was bout "Happy Holidays" vs. "Merry Christmas." It is strictly up to the individual. Frankly I think the whole issue was made up by those morons at Fox.

Then how come I'm not allowed to "celebrate"?

.

Because I'm a witch! Actually, I would like to be Befana, the Italian Christmas witch. Doesn't that sound like a fun thing to be??

SC, I certainly didn't mean that the way it may have come out. And I apologize if I offended you. It's all semantics, isn't it?

Sounds better than being Dominic, the Italian Christmas donkey.

If I hurt SC in any way, then I do deserve to be called an ass.

Yes you can. Come to Ohio and celebtrate with me

Whatever you believe about Christ, God, religion, etc., I think it's just plain stupid to celebrate someone's birth and turn around and say that it's forbidden to mention the name of the birthday celebrity. It'd be like having MLK Day and forbidding anyone to mention him or discuss civil rights. People just need to grow thicker skin and get over it.

Because there's not enough Calamari for you!

You're welcomed to celebrate Christmas with me anytime!


Don Cardi

I just say Happy Festivus.

I don't mean to be offensive with anyone, but since Christmas is a Christian solemnity I don't see the reason why we should say Happy SOMETHING instead of Happy CHRISTMAS. This is a RELIGIOUS event, not just a seasonal occasion for overshopping and overeating and having a couple of days off. Christians - especially Christians! - should remember that.

And honestly this rather hypocritical mania of being overcorrect drives me mad. Evangelization is a task of crucial importance for Christians. Saying Happy Christmas I, as a Christian, mean to announce the birth of Jesus Christ, the son of God. If atheists or non Christians (not the ones of the likes of my dearest friend Afi, who unfortunately is a rare bird) feel offended by that, it's their problem.

Christmas is NOT ONLY a RELIGOUS event. In fact, Dec 25th was once a pagan holiday celebrating the turning of the seasons, a new year, and a hope and thanks for another yr survived. When the Roman church rose to power they used Dec 25th to celebrate Christ's birthday(even though its in March) b/c Dec 25th was already a Germanic holiday and the Romans thought it might be easier to incorporate this new holiday if it were the same day as an old holiday.

Of course the christmas tree and lots of other christmas traditions we celebrate were founded in Germany waaaaaay before the emergence of Christianity in Europe or Rome.

My whole life I have said both happy holidays and merry christmas. I haven't had anything kosher thrown at my head yet!

EDIT-I also say Happy Festivus, a holiday created by one Frank Costanza.

sure! I think I'm going to celebrate Roman Saturnalia as well. Romans got plenty of pagan festivities, you know. We are spoilt for choice.

There are lots of ppl, in America especially, who have no religous affilliation at all but wear Santa hats and say ho ho ho all December long. I'm just making the point that most don't actually celebrate the particular religous aspect of the holiday. They celebrate the turning of the seasons, the spirit of harvest and giving, the beautiful winter, a new yr, and lots of other aspects of the holiday that don't necessarily coincide with the Judeo-religous connotations that were attached by the Roman Catholic Church. This was a holiday long before this Jesus Christ character came into the picture, and if he had not come into the picture we would still have the same zest and zeal for Dec 25th day.

EDIT--Sleigh bells, 'Santa Claus', reindeer, mistletoe, and sacrificial trees were all Germanic aspects of Dec 25th day BEFORE Jesus Christ came along.

I'm not offended if thats the connection you make, but he was born in March.

Again, the holiday goes back way before Jesus Christ and so do most of the traditions that are associated w/ today's celebration.
The common themes of the holiday like gift giving, Santa, trees, etc, were around long before Dec 25th had anything to do with christ.

Jesus Christ is not in my holiday theme b/c that tends to alienate non-christians from the holiday, but I still say merry christmas.

Maybe you are using this word without any malice no matter how unpleasant it may sound to me, so I apologize in advance if I'm totally wrong here....but just in case.....this Jesus Christ character? He's not a character, He's the son of God, the Saviour, for those who believe in Him, so please show a little more respect.



I strongly dissent. Had He not come, the pagan festivity would have vanished as most of others. It's Christ who made Christmas. It's indeed the religious (you must have a very strong dislike even for the word, since you never happen to spell it correctly! :p) event and meaning attached to the pagan background which saved the pagan festivity from oblivion.



they are in fact just external aspects of the festivity. But it's the spiritual dimension Christianity gave to them which makes Christmas such a special event. Without a spiritual meaning they would be hollow. As unfortunately they are for many people today.

The Saviour of what,he hasn't saved me from anything.

If you bothered to read me I said "the Saviour for those who believe in Him". Oh, and I believe He came to save everyone from their sins. Even you.

Interesting. I would love to know more about this. Can you please elaborate? Can you please provide us with some factually written proof or examples?

Note : it is common knowledge throughout the Christian world that december is not the exact birth time of Jesus. But that is not the issue at hand because even if it were in march, we'd still be having this discussion anyway.


Don Cardi

You bet, DC! Besides, if it were in March, we'd have Christmas in March. What's the difference?

Three months. But the meaning for us would still be the same.


Don Cardi

I couldn't agree with you more, Lavinia.

For those who believe in Him. Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself. Wait, I could. For those who believe in his divine aspects.

For others like me, he's just a man, who had exceptional capacities. A man, who should be placed in the line of other Great Rebels/People.

Enzo, you are certainly entitled to your beliefs, and no one should tell you that you are wrong in what you believe in or that you should not believe that way. You are entitled to celebrate the birth of Christ, or if you chose not to, then that is your right also.

But understand that while he may just be a great man to you, to others, like myself, he is the messiah and saviour who preformed miracles while here on earth and continues to be the almighty one. And this is why we, as Christian believers, embrace Christmas, the birth of Jesus Christ, as a very special day for us.

As Lavinia said, show some respect.


Merry Christmas



Don Cardi

But I do.

I deeply respect everyone who believes in a worthful religion, and everything it stands for. Just like most religious people, like yourself, respect my being a non-believer and my view on religion (which is not agnostic, not atheistic, nor believer; but that's a whole different matter).

Where was I ever disrespectful towards Jesus, Christianity, or it's believers?
If someone perceived it that way, my apologies.

Edit: Maybe you meant this

That was because believing in Jesus, meant as believing he just existed, is irrelevant. It is almost certainly scientifically proven that Jesus did exist.
The thing believers believe in, making it thus a matter of opinion, are his divine aspects, which transcend him above a human.

Actually I meant this :






Don Cardi

The commercial aspects of Christmas are apalling. Every year it seems to start earlier and earlier. I've gotta say I have received so much crap this year as "gifts" from people who should be spending their money more wisely than I can begin to tell anyone. I also have to give crap to other people, and tips to janitors, doormen, etc etc ad nauseum. I don't know what any of this has to do with the birth of Jesus. As Kinky Friedman put it, the Jews didn't kill Jesus, Santa Claus did.

I am not completely sold by the idea that this is a religious thing more than it is a huge commercial sham. I've been a Catholic all my life. I am a lector in my church, I went to Catholic shool through the 12th grade and you know what? No one has ever said Happy Pentacost, Merry Feast of the Immaculate Conception,or Joyous Ascension Day. I never got a present for the Feast of The Assumption, and I never gave anyone a tip cause it was Good Friday (or even Easter for that matter).

DonT -

You are not off base in saying that Christmas has been turned into a commercial holiday. It sickens me also that right after Halloween, the stores start promoting Christmas. We must remind ourselves what Christmas really means to people like you and I, and should not allow the commercialism to take away the true spirit of Christmas.

The corporations are the ones attempting to take the Christ our of Christmas. For them, it's all about money and nothing else.

I don't apologize, to believe in what I believe in. And I refused -- to be a fool -- dancing on the string, held by all those -- corporate money hungry bigshots. I don't apologize -- keeping the true spirit of Christmas is what's important.


Don Cardi

I knew Don Geoff would have to go through all this and Partagas, well --- he was --- but I never wanted this for you. Father Don Cardi, Bishop Don Cardi, Pope Don Cardi.....

Being only 21 I don't have much knowledge of this, but I remember a time when stores would start decorating for Christmas on the days following Thanksgiving. But I remember in my last job they started decorating a few weeks BEFORE Thanksgiving....even going as far as having Christmas items discounted BEFORE Christmas.

DC I just meant that DEC 25th was a holiday several centuries before JC. People in Germania were riding around in sleighs cutting down poor trees and stealing kisses underneath the mistletoe during the winter month that came to be known as December WAAAAAAY before the Roman church decided to stick Jesus Christ in the holiday. As I said, the holiday was meant to give a prayer for the long winter months ahead and a thanks for another yr survived. I'm not sure which facts you want factually written proof of, this is all encyclopedia.

NOTE: Christmas in March would be a different holiday all togethor. The greatest aspect of Christmas in December is the winter joy, this winter joy in December was celebrated centuries before Christ and I think it would still be celebrated even if there had been no Christ.

I don't want to make a big thing out of this but myself and some others happen to think that the guy who sold me a piece of peanut brittle this morning is the son of god, are you going to respect that? Using Socratic logic we have just as much right to claim the peanut brittle vendor as you claim the jesus.

EDIT--I have no problems with those who celebrate Jesus Christ as the son of God. Just show respect to those who do not.

Bah humbug!! Bah humbug!! Bah humbug!!

What is wrong with people giving you gifts? Or you giving people gifts?

[quote=Ice
EDIT--I have no problems with those who celebrate Jesus Christ as the son of God. Just show respect to those who do not. [/quote]

I do show respect, but you don't show respect for Christians by referring to "this Jesus Christ character."

There are at least FIVE celebrations within a one-week period: Christmas, Yule/Solstice, Hannukah, Kwanzaa, and Humanlight. All of these are holidays taken seriously by their celebrants, even if only one is a "majority" holiday. I think it is nice to recognize that there are other people out there celebrating, too. I regard "Season's greetings" or "Have a good holiday" to those whom I know not to be Christians a matter of respect and good manners.

And yes, modern Christmas is a mix of mostly pagan and heavy duty corporate influenced symbols. If Christmas must be turned back into a Christian holiday again as it was "originally intended", then just go, "Good idea, get rid of all those horrible Pagan influences that corrupted it, like yule logs, lit-up evergreen trees, garland, mistletoe, giving wrapped gifts, etc"

Thank you, thank you very much, my point exactly.

EDIT-You really should come around more often Salad.

I read someplace that Jesus was actually born in July. I think some historian came up with this because of the timing of the Roman census. Does anyone have any information about this?

In my freshman year in high school, I remember learning that scientists had determined that a great celestial event that occurs every few hundred years, the name of which escapes me, occurred over a few days and would have been prominent in Judea in late April in either 4 or 6 A.D.

Early accounts from several sources identified Jesus' birth coinciding with this event. Some think the Gospel of Matthew's account of a star over Bethlehem refers to this event.

I have read that Luke mentions that the Roman census was also taking place and that Romans did not take census during the winter months.

The Bible doesn't give a date (or even year, but that's a different subject) for Christ's birth. The modern dates of Jesus birth fit in well dates with the dates of Sun worship (winter solstice -- Rome declared December 25th as The Birthday of the Invincible Sun).

The Bible does give some climate data and the phrase shephards "watching their flocks in the fields at night" indicating anytime between April to October for Jesus's birth. No where near December.

Reading 'The Davinci Code' made me research this topic a bit and all of the possible dates I could find were no where near December.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: klydon1

[quote=Ice
EDIT--I have no problems with those who celebrate Jesus Christ as the son of God. Just show respect to those who do not.

I do show respect, but you don't show respect for Christians by referring to "this Jesus Christ character."

Am I offended by ppl who don't believe that science says the bible is wrong? Of course not.

And if they called me "this scientific observation character" I would not be offended at that either.

I don't have to show Jesus any respect when I am alone or around other Christians. While I personally would not disrespect Jesus in the presence of Christians there are those who would and they have the right. They have the right to disrespect him when they are alone OR in the presence of Christians b/c religion has been forced down ppl's throats throughout history. If Christians practiced it on their own time and did not try to 'convert' others as the bible instructs them then they would be free from insults.....As is they have pissed a lot of ppl off and so now we have guys wearing a 'Jesus is a c*nt' shirt.

BLASPHEMEY!!

WOW. I'm not liking this whole talking trash about Jesus stuff. Maybe it's the Muslim in me,,but that's MAD disrespectful. I mean, just cause you don't believe in something, doesn't mean you have the right to be so incredibly insensitive to those who are believers of it. I can't say I've ever gone around calling atheists C*nts but I guess I'm just a robot drone who's been brainwashed by religion passed down from 1000 years ago. <<<<<< HEAVY SARCASMMM.. Sorry
Im angry.

You demand respect for yourself and your beliefs, but you go out of your way to offend and insult with crude, vulgar references. You've made my point.

Your comments are more immature than offensive.

Gee, I haven't seen the three morons wearing that shirt, but to listen to you, it sounds as though they outnumber people wearing crucifixes.

Practice what you preach, Ice. Show those who believe that Christ is the son of God the same respect you'd want to be shown yourself!

Basically, everyone needs to listen to this "SC character".

Right but if I try and 'convert' ppl to my beliefs the way that certain Christian posters in here have said they try and 'convert' ppl to their beliefs......

EXAMPLE



.........then I would expect to get criticism too.

In fact SC, check out some of my threads. I get crapped on all the time for trying to convert ppl to my beliefs, no big deal to me though. Why should Christians get an exemption from getting their beliefs crapped on like the rest of us??

Pacino Princess, SC, Klydon, Mig -

Why bother? It is quite obvious that he is trying to upset some people here and turn this topic into an arguement.

The discussions that were taking place in this topic were good ones. Even when debates arose, those involved remained respectful and mature towards each other. That was until he made these disgusting posts that in truth, contribute nothing but vulgarity and are intentionally meant to be offensive.

It's not worth the effort to reply to such immature remarks.

Besides, GOD still loves him anyway.



Don Cardi

Whatever DC, now it is YOU who is insulting. I'm not trying to upset ppl, you just need to grow some thicker skin.

They're not getting any exemption. I'm only asking that you show some respect to your fellow members who have differing religious beliefs and to stop mocking those beliefs.

If you ever feel you've been wronged by others (responding to your messages here) simply use the "Report Post" feature.

You are what you are..

Im not religious and celebrate christmas for the festive side of things parties,presents etc..But i respect the beliefs of others and let people choose as they will.

Ice, I'll say a prayer for you tonight.

BTW, hope you have a MERRY CHRISTMAS!


Don Cardi

But he was a rebel. He stood up against the downfall of the Jewish religion, he stood up against the Jewish priests who were going too far away from the core of the Jewish religion. He stood up against the Romans, he stood up against all forms of injustice.
He annoyed the established powers, he was a danger to them. That's why he was killed.
He tried to radically change society and religion in his land. Jesus was, at least in the eyes of the people in that era, a radical.

Rebel isn't used with a negative connotation here, it's more of a neutral term.

I did NOT mock them. Saying 'this Jesus Christ character' implies that I do not 'believe' in him, thats not mocking anything.

If we were discussing the existence of black holes there would be much debate and sly remarks by both sides just like there is in this debate.

This concept of 'religous beliefs' should not be shrouded in protective covering and made exempt from being DEBATED, which is exactly what I did, debate it.

When someone says they feel its their duty to convert others to their belief system(Christianity) then their belief system naturally becomes the target of DEBATE.

Sounds great DC, I'll say a 'prayer' for you too!

Why do you have to use the term 'character'? By just saying Jesus Christ, you don't imply to believe in his divinity.

Perhaps this is my incomplete 'feeling' of the English language, but IMO, the addition of 'character' after a name, gives an negative connotation.

Ya I guess my use of 'character' was my way of implying that I do not believe in his divinity.

Again, I don't think this should upset someone who truly feels strong about their beliefs.

I don't get upset when ppl say I'm crazy for thinking the world is 6 billion yrs older than the bible says.

--edit-- This is an age old worldly debate that everyone in here is VERY used to.

I understand. However when you use words like Rebel and Radical in describing someone like Jesus, those words really don't apply. A rebel is usually someone who opposes someone or something by force. Someone who is in rebellion. A radical usually goes to extreme measures. Jesus did neither. He never took on the high priests or those in authoritive power. he never rose against them. As a matter of fact when he was questioned by one of his diciples as to if they should be required to pay taxes to the Casaer, he told him to render to Casaer what is Casaers, and render to God what is Gods. He didn't tell them to rebel or act in a radical way. He preached the word of God, and while doing so, he also observed the Hebrew teachings. He never radicalized his followers or taught them that they should rebel.


Don Cardi

To Whom?


Don Cardi

'It' doesn't have a personal name like 'George' or 'Randy.' It's just a prayer to....'this'......or to 'that' if you prefer.

(I think this would be better discussed over a cigar or three )

This is interesting-Todays fact of the day.

Todays fact of the day

I find it funny that one can be "tolerant" and have "free speech" as long as it's in line with the far-left mindset. At any rate, those who don't want to believe that Jesus is God in-the-flesh, or don't believe in God at all, or believe you can pick-n-choose whatever god you want, or science is your god, that's fine...then you can go to Hell (according to my belief) if that's what you choose to do. But why can't believers be given equal footing in the speech department? And why is the believer's view called contemptible when it should be given just as much respect and validity as other viewpoints? I don't care how "backward" you think it is, or how "intolerant." I really don't care. But the fact is, I've just as much a right to believe it and express it as you have to believe yours. And yes, evangelization IS a mandate of the Christian belief. I'll tell a person once about the saving grace of God through Jesus Christ. If he wants to believe it, great; if he wants to "'dis" it, that's fine by me. Either way, I've done my part: I've told him. What he does or doewsn't do with it is his business. HE'S accountable for what he's been given at that point, not me.

But the original topic here was the whole Merry Christmas versus Happy Whatever. Now folks have gotten into, "Well, Jesus was probably born in July," and, "Well, Christmas trees are pagan in origin," etc., etc., etc. But the bottom line is, Dec. 25th is the day that was set aside to celebrate the birth of Jesus, the Messiah and Savior of the entire world. Just as Feb. 2 was set up for Groundhog Day, July 4th Independence Day, etc. So, believe whatever you have to believe (or NOT believe) about Christmas. You still have to come back to the realization that it was originally set aside for the forementioned celebration. Put whatever disguises you want on it, but it's still about Jesus Christ. 'Nuff said, and Merry Christmas.

Nicely put, Snake. Your post about spreading the word reminded me that several times a year, I answer my front door to find Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons or those of another denomination, wanting to share their religious beliefs. I'm not offended or insulted, but politely let them know I feel satisfied and secure in my faith and wish them well. I don't feel inconvenienced or threatened although a neighbor of mine gets upset by this.

I got a good laugh from one young man who came to my house to talk about his church. When he was leaving he asked if I minded telling him what my religion was. I told him I was Catholic, and he said, "You know, Catholics are considered Christians today." I smiled and said, "I'm glad they made the switch."

This is not a "right-left" issue. You and I have the right to free speech, and you and I also have have the right to choose whether or not to listen to one another. If you want to evangelize me you have every right to do so, and no one on the left or the right would deny this. You are mixing politics with religion here, and it is inappropriate.

Oh, you can TELL me that it's not a "right-left" issue 'til you're blue in the face. But it's quite another matter when the double-standard is played out daily in the drive-by media. The truth of the matter is, if an individual doesn't conform to the leftist's view -- be it politics, religion, science, or whatever -- he's labeled "close-minded," "intolerant," and he's subsequently ostracized for it. Anyone who can read a paper or tunes in to CNN knows that.

BTW, I find it incredible that you say mixing religion and politics is "inappropriate" when every government in the world does so. Entire civilizations have been built with both as cornerstones. That's really an incredible comment.

"Every government in the world?"

USA, Canada, Mexico, China, Russia, France, Italy, Turkey, South Africa, Germany, India, Australia --- ALL DO NOT HAVE STATE RELIGIONS.

Oh I guess you were talking about Saudi Arabia and Spain under Franco.

It doesn't matter how many countries in the world mix religion with politics. We were a country founded under religious tolerance. Our founding fathers believed that the best way to accomplish this tolerance is by maintaining a separation of church and state. Therefore, it is inappropriate to mix religion and politics in the US. As soon as we start crossing that line, it's the gradual start of a theocracy, which contradicts this country's claim of being "land of the free". I'm surprised more of these religious folks don't start fussing when they see what our political leaders do to religion. Mixing religion with politics is like mixing wine with piss. If our land isn't biased enough by the political parties, religious partisanship would be a whole nothing barrier keeping us from achieving success. We don't like our political leaders to be hypocritical, and yet we insist upon them being involved with some type of church, even when we know how unethical people are who come out of Washington.

The day we start contradicting what we've set out to establish is the day I'll flee this nation in search of one with genuine principles.

Who's talking about "State Religions"?? I'll put this so anyone can understand it: Your "theological grid" -- be it Christianity, atheism (yes, no religion IS a religion), Islam, buddhists...WHATEVER -- inevitably influences your worldview of things, ALL things. Ergo, it will influence your political philosophies, choices, etc., etc., etc. And "birds of a feather flock together," so whichever social faction is most in line with your ideas is the one you'll gravitate towards. Such factions can revolutionize, disintegrate, re-build, revise, etc., governments. And if you don't think that's true, then I'd point you to the history of Rome, where Christianity changed the entire continent for centuries. I'd also bring up a little "non-religious religion" called Communism and its effect on many nations. So, whether you prefer folks don't mix religion and politics or not, it's inevitably done. Everything you perceive is interpreted through your own little personal gridwork, and whether your conscious of it or not, it affects everything you do, say, or think.

BTW, "separation of church and state" isn't found in the Constitution or Bill of Rights. And the oft-raised argument by your side of the fence (as used here also) is downright wrong and out-of-context from the intention of the "founding fathers" to which you so quickly alluded. They never intended for so-called 'separation' to be as it is today, which is basically "freedom FROM religion." (I refer you to virtually any pending ACLU case to illustrate my point.) All they intended was to ensure the government could not mandate that all citizens be Catholic, or Baptist, or Presbyterian; they certainly never meant for this nation to get away from the idea of God and the ideals found in the Bible.

Yet here we are arguing about whether or not it's okay to say "Merry CHRISTmas." Yeah, I'm sure that's what our founding fathers had in mind.

The wall of separation between church and state is impermeable on both sides. Read your Jefferson and your Madison before you say otherwise. The concept that the constituion merely forbids the establishment of a religion is an invention of the right wing conservative evangelicals, circa 1980.

And I don't know what Ben Franklin wished people at Christmas time. When was the term "Merry Christmas" first used?

Wrong. The revision of the idea of seapartion of church and state was an invention of a liberal court circa 1963 that sided with a Ms. Madalyn Murray O'Hair and kicked prayer out of schools. That started the whole hellish snowball.

Even Madison and Jefferson -- two Deists -- never intended it to get to this point. And THE founding father, George Washington, said it best when he said, "It's impossible to rightly govern without God and the Bible." Seems HE certainly had no problem mixing politics and religion.

That has been rolling and rolling and rolling.

You got that right, Mig. Of course, those who DO believe the Bible shouldn't be surprised. After all, the One whom we're celebrating Dec. 25th warned us that things are going to keep getting worse and worse. Still sad to see, though.

Yep you got that right Snake. I dread to see what we have to PUT UP with next

Naturally, it'll come to physical persecution (we already get the verbal), and eventually, martyrdom. But hey, that's cool with me. I'm ready. I think the ideal way to die would be for the sake of Christ. Wonder where all those crying for "rights" and "peace" will be when the world degenrates to that level? I hate to think.

It'll come to? We've already seen this being done in other parts of the world. Remember the execution style slaying of the nun in Somalia a few months back?


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