Tony vs. Carmela

Who do you think had the better argument between Tony and Carmela during the "Whitecaps" blowout and most of Season 5? Both of them had very valid points in my opinion.

Valid points on both sides, but Carmela had knowingly turned a blind eye to Tony's infidelity in the past -- even telling Father Phil that she viewed the goomars as a form of masturbation. She was fine with the big house, the cash on hand, the royal fawning of the wives of Tony's underlings, the Mercedes, et al.

All told, what idiot gives his mistress his HOME phone number? I know that affair started in the late 90s when cell phones weren't as prevalent, but come on?

In a different argument Tony says to Carmela "You equate love with money." Then Carmela responds, "No, you equate love with money!" This issue is brought up again in the Whitecaps episode when Tony mentions how Carmela would have never been happy without a wealthy husband and nice home. I think they both equate love with money, but Carmela in particular. I actually think this is one of her worst qualities. A few examples of her greed....

1) Tony buys her a new Porsche. Carmela is excited but says, "I still wish you had talked to that building inspector." As if she can't just say thanks for the new Porsche without complaining about more.

2) When Tony wants to move back in after they were separated. As part of the deal, Carmela basically requires that Tony buy her a property for her to build a spec house on. This was pretty awful. If you get back together, do it because you love each other, not so you can build a house and have a project.

3) Carmela's therapist tells her to leave Tony and get a divorce. Carmela goes home and tells Tony to donate $50,000 to Meadow's school and says "You have to do something nice for me today Tony." Even though Tony doesn't know what she means, she is contemplating divorcing Tony unless he ponies up 50k.

4) Tony buys Carmela something nice (the fur jacket I believe). Carmela tells Tony, "I love you Tony. I should tell you that more often." Tony responds, "Nobody's stopping you." She only thinks of saying this after Tony buys her an expensive gift.

I always thought one of the most telling scenes was the therapist who said to Carmella that he wouldn't accept payment from her because it was "blood money." He also said that she could never again claim "that she hadn't been told" of what she was doing.

Carmella had a penchant for turning a blind eye when things suited her, yet taking shots at Tony when she wanted to take a moral stand. She was a hypocrite, much like Tony, but in a different way.

Even Meadow saw through Carmella's superficiality on more than one occasion. In one moment of candor, Carmella confessed to knowing what she was getting into when she married Tony. She wanted the money and the gifts that came from the illegal income, but she vehemently protested the other women.

When Tony & Carm were separated, I thought AJ's teacher really put Carm in her place when he boldly stated that the only thing she had to offer was between her legs. Harsh, but probably true.

Slightly OT, but I get a kick out of when Carmela goes to show off the new Cayenne, and Angie Bonpensiero gets in her new Corvette. One paid for her car through hard work, the other....well...

I agree with you guys, I think Carmela was a hypocrite...Trying to present herself as a good Catholic, telling Tony all he cares about is money, etc. Also, she threw the whole Furio thing right in his face during an argument which was brutal, at least Tony kept it discrete. Also, when Tony calls her out on stealing the birdfeeder money, she denies it and tells him he sounds demented.

Its_da_Jackettt - First of all, my compliments on your name. It's the best name on here. Anyways, you're right, that's a good point. Carm doesn't like her Porsche quite as much after seeing how Angie got hers through hard work. Also, earlier in the episode Carmela had been showing off the Porsche in front of Ginnie Sack. Carmela seemed to enjoy showing it off at this time when Ginnie was going broke. Not classy.

And Goombah brings up a good point as well. Carmela is obnoxious when she is in bed with the teacher and she says, "No....I'm just too upset!" And runs away. She dates the teacher and talks about what the teacher can do for AJ the entire time.

Appreciate the compliment. When Richie gave that jacket to Tony, the way he said that line always cracks me up.

When Carmela showed the Porsche off to Ginny, that fake surprised look she had -- you realize she's no better than any of Tony's goomahs.

One of the many great things about the series were the little details. Richie tells the story of how he got the jacket twice in front of Tony. The 2nd time Tony rolls his eyes and smirks as if thinking "not again with this f--king guy."

Also love Junior's reaction to the jacket, at 1:23 on this clip (what he and Bobby are doing up to this point is beyond me).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsE8b6J0VL4

That is a great scene, Tony is not very excited about the Jacket at all.

Tony had the better argument in my opinion and Carm knew the price that had to be paid in order to gain the fruits of Tony's hard labor, legit or otherwise.

I love how Carm just nonchalantly mentions the lot for her Spec House is "Only 600K"....I guess philandering has a ballpark value after all. I think even Tony didn't have his indiscretions and other lady friends, she would still find something to give Tony a hard time about. Even with her own children, Meadow especially, seems to find ways to disappoint her. Looking back on it, it would seem Tony did marry his Mother in a lot of ways!

"40K is the Stock Market? And for what?" - Tony

Like any of Tony's goomahs, Carmela had her price.

It just was a lot higher than some of the others.

At least the side pieces are upfront about what they want as crazy as many of them may be at the time.

Richie told Tony that he was giving him the jacket because it was time that he move on and let go of the past. Yet Richie repeated the story of how he took the jacket off Rocco DeMeo, the "toughest guy in Essex county" to around 4 different people in that episode. Apparently that was Richie's finest hour.

Well, when the runner-ups include:

- 10 years in the can
- Getting fried rice spilled on him at the food court when going to meet Tony
- Dating Janice
- Turning Beansie Gaeta into a shopping cart
- Scaring David Scatino and the Chairboy of the Board at the Executive game
- Kicking up light-up sneakers to Junior

Naturally taking Rocco's coat was the highlight of Richie's life. After all, Rocco was going to die of Alzheimer's anyway, so it's not like he was going to miss it.

- Also Richie's proclamation of "I'm Old School" and "Shouldn't have to explain myself"

I forgot one -- offering to send Matt Bevilacqua to slip and fall school.

Hey, it would be cheaper than sending his son to Fox Trot for 5Gs lmao!!!

I'm re-watching the series now and just finished season four and am on episode two of season five so some things are fresh in my memory.
Carmela throwing Tony out was going to happen sooner or later. After finding the fingernail, smelling perfume on his clothes and all the other obvious evidence of cheating over the years the phone call from Irina pushed her too far. Part of it was that AJ answered the call and that brought Tony's affairs into their house, a long as it was at arms length Carmella might have been hurt, angry and jealous but it was not confronting her immediately. As it's been mentioned by various characters at different points in the show a woman or women on the side comes with the territory.
The other thing that I think had to do with the separation was Carmella was felling the 25 year itch. They married young and while Tony was out sowing his oats she was at home busy with the kids and making a home. With Meadow leaving and a sense of security her mind started to wander. Thoughts of a different man entered her mind. First it was fantasizing about Furio then taking a step further with Victor Musto. She knew that there would be severe repercussions if she had an affair while Tony still lived in the house so to avoid that and to help justify her actions (Catholic guilt) she needed Tony gone before testing the waters.
Unfortunately, Carmella realized that the life of a single, unemployed, middle aged woman with no work history (or ethic) is not easy. Especially when alimony is not going to be much. For physical and financial security reconciliation was her only option.

Something else I thought of this evening (incidentally it was a Mercedes that cut me off on the freeway that jogged this).

This predates the separation, but it's telling. Gloria Trillo gave Carmela a ride home from the dealer (never mind that special snowflake couldn't stand to wait another 20 minutes). In that ride home, Carmela put on airs -- rich housewife, daughter at Columbia, huge ring, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAdv8ipu4Vg

Being a Mercedes saleswoman, Gloria had seen hundreds of nouveau riche New Jersey suburbanites, and really Carmela wasn't much different. She poked at Carmela's brags -- like purposely referring to Columbia as the Columbia School of Broadcasting. Gloria drops Carmela off, and at the end of the scene, you can just see her seethe at the Soprano McMansion. Here, they're sleeping with the same man, yet Gloria is without the things she really wants -- love, family, nice things, etc.

In Gloria's final fight with Tony, she ripped him for things that Carmela should have ripped him for:

"I'll sit back like a mute while you screw every woman out there."

"What'd you think that you could treat me like some stupid fucking goombah housewife? You think i'm gonna let some fucker shit all over me just because he buys me some ridiculous gaudy fucking ring?"

Despite her emptiness, she saw Tony and Carmela's relationship for what it was worth -- one not based on love, but rather on possessions. Tony could screw half of North Jersey, and Carmela would be fine with it, so long as she got her danegeld.

Some people might call that being a whore.

Gloria is obviously more cultured and brighter than Carm as the CBS joke went right over her head and was an avid world traveler. It really burned her up that someone so vapid and clueless became the wife of one of the most powerful men in the state.

Mikey_Sunset also brought up another great point, Carm just doesn't want to work. Remember when she was embarrassed that Angie was selling samples in the Supermarket to survive? She wouldn't have the courage to dig deep down and start over which is where she would be due to her 25-year gap in employment history. When her and Meadow went to that Art Museum, she told Mead outright that she is young and has a future career while getting a lawyer is the best plan her future.

She never would get her hands dirty -- even with the spec house, treating her own father as an employee ("When I hired you....").