Did The Sopanos Jump the Shark with the NY-NJ War?

Does anyone else feel the whole 'New Jersey/New York War' was laughable and cheesy? First of all, even in the context of the show, it was totally unrealistic.

Tony mentions at one point how there are 200 soldiers in the Lupertazzi Family.

And when Johnny Sack wants Tony to clip Carmine Sr., Tony feels he's being lured into a trap and will be used as a scapegoat. That it could incur wrath from the other four families or even Carmine's supporters.

The very idea that Tony or his underlings actually felt that a war with NY was anything but suicide just seems ridiculous, even for the show. I'm surprised that someone like Paulie or Silvio would go along and not just make a deal with Phil and bump Tony off at this point. Did they really think they could win, that this was in their best interest?

And Tony was just stupid. Did he REALLY think he could clip a Boss of one of the Five Families, without the permission of The Commission, with only "off the record" approval of said Bosses' Underboss, and get away with it? He had to know there would be some form of reprisal, whether it be from one of the other families or from Phil's supporters. Did he really think Butchie spoke for the entire Lupertazzi Family?

Was he that stupid, that in just a week after bumping off an NY Boss, he sat out in the open, with his back and sides unprotected at a diner, no caution at all?

It just strikes me as a jump the shark moment, a heavy hand of fan service and just lazy writing. There could've been a dozen better, more realistic endings, than the Jersey family going to war with New York. It just felt a lazy way to end the series, cheap.

Good point Cicci. I have always felt the same thing. My take on it was Tony really had no choice. Philly was looking for a reason to go after the family; it just took him a long time to lead up to it. After he officially got the big seat, as is the case most times, the power went to his head. Im sure it was something that was always in the back of his head, but it was inevitable.
Tonys cousin wacked Phils kid brother, and he didn't even let him get reprisal. He beats the shit out of phil when phil isnt forthcoming with the money he owes Tony. Those two things alone shoulda gotten Tony wacked.
Tony reacted because he had it on good info they were coming after him, so he did what he had to do. Did he actually think he was going to win? Probably not, but by then it was too late.
Tony had no choice, it was either kill or be killed. Eitehr let new york trample the family and take over, or go down swinging.....

Is it really that crazy? Casso did order the entire the death of the entire jersey faction which was a fight between a essentially a 200+ strong NY family was preparing to whack a large 50-60+, mostly independent jersey crew/family. The order was wipe out New Jersey. ... drew up a list of thirty Lucchese mobsters from the Garden State and dispatched assassins to kill them all.

The Jeresy family essentially told Casso/Amuso to eat it like Tony did in response to crazy demands for large kickups. Of course, rather than a war breaking out- guys started ratting.

I think show went all the way downhill after that Russian escaped from Ton't men, and show never picked up on what fans were waiting for, the Russian leaders reprisal. They just let it go, ignored it, as if it never happened.

Carmela and Furio episodes were worst, dragged that entire season down.

I don't know if the NJ/NY war was necessarily a shark jump,in the sense that the quality of the show didn't go south after that.I think the quality of the show stayed high to the end. I will grant you that it probably would not have happened that way in the real Mob world.

The show did take some liberties for the sake of entertainment,but I would put the whole "Kevin Finnerty"
storyline as the lowest point of Chase's creative output.
IMHO,I didn't get it,didn't like it,and was really pi**ed off when it finally went nowhere.The Russian ,Chris's murder of JT,and some of the other dead ends were OK,because that's how life goes sometimes.Not everything is resolved.

The dream sequences,for me, were the worst parts of the show and I hated seeing them come on the screen.

I dont think it jump the shark becaues it was going that way.The show did jump in season 5 with the class of 2004 to many new
characters with 85% of the story line.

NY-NJ war had its origins in the constant tensions that Tony and his family were creating with NY in season 4 and 5 and then in season 6 it was Phil who somehow wanted a conflict. Unrealistic or not, it's not like the writters came up with this idea in the last 5 or 6 episodes.

Personally, I liked how they included a mob war in the series. I imagine this is how a modern mob war would look like. I'm glad that they didn't make some cheap hollywood spectacle with lots of shootings and bodies on the street (like in the 3rd season of Boardwalk Empire, where like 50 or more gangsters were killed in one night), just few high profile guys got whacked and there was quickly a stalemate. IMO it's a really good portrayal of a mob war and it's a nice way to finish the series.

NY family indeed had 200 made guys, but how many of those made guys were capable hitmen? We don't really know, most of them were probably old just like in the real 21st century American LCN. They certainly had more manpower but the Soprano family from the series was quite lethal - they commited many murders, had contacts in Italy and they had capable and proved hitmen like Walden, Benny etc. Besides, the NY family was in chaos, Phil took over after an internal war and his position was probably not yet solidified. I guess Tony and guys loyal to him had some hopes that their war with NY would spark another internal war in that family and they would end up with whoever would be against Phil and his administration. Also, the Sopranos basically had no choice but to defend themselves.

I don't know why so many people expected something involving this Russian guy would happen after Pine Barrens episode. That Russian mob boss Slava seemed too smart to seek revenge if Valery survived and "told the story", and if he didn't survive he could never possibly know who was responsible.

It's just like in life, you sometimes get in strange random situations that have no follow-ups later.

One of the mayor themes in the show was how gangsters live on the edge and for today. They never know what could happen the next day, they could be busted by the feds or killed by one of the many people who have motives to kill them. As we, the fans, wait for this Russian guy to come out of nowhere and kills someone, we're basically in some way experiencing these same feelings that the mobsters have. You don't think about it every minute while you're watching the series, but the "threat" is always there.

Agreed Slava. For what Sopranos lacked in numbers, pretty much everyone in the soprano crew was tough and willing to do wet work.

Remember that the meeting was arranged by George Paglieri, who at least in the 10 second phone call they portrayed as on good terms with the Soprano family. So to dismiss it as simply "off the record" might be a bit of an understatement. Since its doubtful that Phil was the most powerful boss in NY at the time, it seems reasonable that Tony could have gotten the support of The Commission. We don't even know what the status of The Commission really is in that world, could be like LCN today.

Its unrealistic by real standards since we know how powerful the Decavalcantes were, but as has been pointed out The Sopranos were portrayed as being closer in stature to NY. Not equal by any stretch but they were firmly in control of North Jersey.

In the case, all the Jersey guys went into hiding until the FBI started arresting everyone. The jersey guys never really fought back.

The Commission didn't even exist on the show from what we've seen. As far as Jersey vs one of the Five Families, yeah it kind of was unrealistic, but the Soprano family only survived because Phil's guys betrayed him. Had Butchie and Albie stayed loyal to Phil, they could of dragged the war on as long as they wanted to until Tony was dead.

it wasn't exactly realistic but i really liked the NY/NJ war plot line, i thought it was entertaining and i don't think it was much more unrealistic than anything else in the show. pretty much any given point of any season can have holes picked in it if you look hard enough.

i don't think it jumped the shark at all, i just think OP is overthinking that particualar part of the storyline a bit too much. apply that level of scrutiny to any other part of the show and the whole thing falls apart imo.

that said, i agree with lou_para and jace in that the absolute worst parts of the show were the dream sequences and the carmella/furio bullshit (although, aside from the carmella crap fuuuuuurio was one of my favorite characters)

I don't think the show ever went down in quality to earn the shark jumping title but it did seem to change in tone after the "Long Term Parking" episode. When they killed off Adrianna it seemed like only a matter of time before more key characters would be whacked. Eventually it did happen in "Kennedy and Heidi" and "Blue Comet". The entire coma story arc was sub-par but it was an insight as to what would happen if Tony were out of the picture. Finally I feel that the last few episodes seemed rushed with the NY war, AJs suicide attempt and redemption, Meadows engagement (?) to the Parisi kid and other subplots. They seemed to be in a hurry to get things wrapped up but with the finale it's like they never really accomplished that. I guess with the passing of James Gandolfini we'll never get any more answers.

This post basically summarizes how I feel, too. True, Chase seemed to cram multiple story lines at the end. And during the coma scene, it was interesting to see what would happen if Tony were out of the picture. To me, it didn't seem as if there was a competent leader in the group to succeed Tony.

That's the whole point, I think. The show hurrying to get things wrapped up, mirrored Tony's attempts in the show, to get both of his families in order during and after the whole war...And then it just abruptly ended. Like a real bosses life should he have been whacked in the real world, he never got to see his plan play out, though he was expecting to, it never happened. He'll never get to see Meadow get married, or AJ succeed with the movie thing, or restore his marriage with Carmela, just like we won't get to see it. People seem to forget that the whole show was done through Tony's point of view. So when his light was snuffed out so abruptly, our view into his world went right along with it.

Agreed. At first, I was one of the guys, who felt that Chase gave us a big middle finger with the black out at the end. But over time, I have come to appreciate the scene for the reasons stated in your post.

...jumped the shark with the whole "Johnny Cakes" season.... if anything it came back a little after that....just seemed that Chase was too rushed at the end. (NY/NJ War)

I would of Like To c a Chis vs Tony battle for boss more at the end of the show. Chris double crossing Tony going to NY would of been so cool!

agreed, I lost interest because of the whole ny vs jersey thing

a power struggle within jersey, like we saw in season 1, would have made more sense

if there was one character who could have challenged tony (as did richie and ralphie) both emotionally and "structurally" was tony b.

here's an interesting scenario:

- tony b. doesn't go on a killing spree on the leotardos
- he gets made (tony s. assured him about that)
- he rapidly earns his way up, making use of his former "rising star" skills
- as tony s. is hospitalized, he impresses the other higher ups (sil, paulie) with some successful "administrative" ideas
- after the vito thing, he gets appointed to that crew
- he becomes the wealthiest capo, carrying more weight within the family, ala ralphie
- his increased success, not to mention his superior "iq", start to create some frictions between him and tony s.
- he uses his newly-acquired power and past family ties with tony s. to get people interested in a possible coup d'etat

and we take it from there...

besides, NY could have still played a role in that scenario, supporting a specific warring faction over another.

Could of just been a double cross by Paglieri and Butchie. Tony removes Phill then wack Tony to take over what is left of Jersey. Similar to the play the Genovese organized in Philly so they could encroach on the Atlantic City rackets.

The show is not at all shown solely from tony's perspective... it's told from multiple points of view. I don't know where you'd get this idea from.

I still don't see any concrete evidence that Tony was killed in the last scene. You could easily interpret it in other ways just as well.



This for example. The same would be true had he been taken down by police, arrested, charged and sent to prison.

Here's the thing, a hitman wouldn't need to go to the bathroom first just to come out again to shoot Tony. Some people say it's an homage to the godfather; however, unlike the godfather where Michael was expected and knew he was going to be searched, a potential hitman in this case wouldn't need to over complicate it. He's walk in and shoot him in the face. Not dick around at the bar watching him chit chat with his family and then go to the bathroom. What for? What need? he doesn't have a gun hidden back there like Michael Corleone.

The scene is filmed in the most ominous way intentionally. Chase is illustrating the tension and pressure Tony will have to LIVE with for the rest of his life. We were suspicious of every single person who walks in that door, men who look like people who've tried to kill Tony and vice versa.

Then of course there is the issue of a lack of motive. Who would have done it? Who called the hit?

Nobody within Jersey had the popular backing, certainly. The fragmented family will long be in the process of picking up the shattered pieces and there aren't any other real leaders in the Soprano family. Who in the Jersey family would be in a position? Paulie? He doesn't have the support, his role will ALWAYS be that of a second or third wheel. Further, Paulie was burned by New York, surely even he would have learned the pitfalls of trusting outside families. Patsy Parisi? He had the motive surely, but he also had PLENTY of opportunity to kill tony, case in point: when he drunkenly stood in the soprano family yard with a gun in hand. But Patsy was the family accountant, not much of a killer and while not unpopular he never seemed to have any sort of support from the other capos.

Of course we already know Silvio wasn't behind it, though he had been approached and paid a hefty price for his refusal. Sil was really the only viable candidate to take over the reins. He was high in the Soprano administration, he was capable, respected universally but loyal.

New York? Maybe. this is probably the most likely option, though they had made peace with Tony during the last Sit down. Some will argue that this was simply done to lure tony into a false sense of security, but then, it makes no sense for this to happen off screen and for the viewer to be in a position where they must invent scenes which never occurred to justify the outcome.

No, I think Tony walked out of the Diner alive. Perhaps arrested by undercover cops, perhaps completely unscathed. Who knows? Like the song says, it goes on and on and on...

In my opinion, the show didn't jump the shark with the New York vs. New Jersey war, per se, but how they went about it. By that I mean, they set up everything perfectly at the end of Season 5. A regular 13 episode final season would have been perfect to follow that through to the end. But Chase and Co. took the money, putting $ over quality, and gave us a two-part final season with 9 additional episodes...resulting in a lot of down/wasted time. Then they speed things up way too fast towards the end.

Lucheeses new jersey faction only had 20 made members,i remember in Acceturo crew.

This is a very good point. Michael Corleone gets a gun from the bathroom because he knew that he would be searched so he couldn't have a weapon on him. A hitman who was just going to casually enter and whack Tony could have shot him as he walked up, although to commit a murder in a restaurant full of witnesses? Even by Sopranos standards that's pretty ridiculous.



This is my thought as well. The constant shots of people entering (done as though to be from Tony's POV) is deliberate to show the underlying tension. Everyone could be a threat, or could be nothing. It's paranoia at its finest; even a dinner with his family is cause to worry, because who knows if the guy that just walked in has a gun and is ready to shoot you, or the person that seems to be listening just a little too closely to what you say is a FBI agent, or if that car that slows down is preparing to do a drive-by. In Season 1 Episode 4 after his mock execution, Christopher is all paranoid with Adriana and tells her, when she mentions that nobody followed her, that "[She] wouldn't know it if they did" and "It could be anybody, any time". That's what Tony has to live with.

Agree. Far too many new major characters in between Seasons 5 and the two halves of Season 6, and they never get developed fully. Hell, even Walden Belfiore, who did the final hit of the series, seemingly appeared out of thin air just before Christopher died.

Johnny Sack did one time say that the sopranos brought a lot of money in for new york. they weren't a joke like the real NJ mafia was supposed to be

carmine and johnny were pretty much top of the pyramid. why would they be mixing a lot with the tony and co if they werent that valuable / important

I think the NY-NJ was actually very real and happened exactly the way it should have. I will add that I find it a little stupid that Tony was in that diner alone with his family that soon after Phil being wacked.